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August 18th, 2013
07:49 PM ET

Debating why millenials are leaving the church

(CNN)–Rachel Evans and Hemant Mehta joined CNN's Brianna Keilar and Martin Savidge to speak about millenials losing their religion.

They were debating Evan's piece from the Belief Blog looking at why millenials are leaving the church and Mehta's response suggesting millenials are leaving the church to try atheism.

Tell us what you think.  Join the conversation in the comments.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Atheism • Belief

soundoff (1,388 Responses)
  1. Cpt. Obvious

    Oh for fvck's sake. Are the post links on this thread all fvcked up, too? C'mon CNN, get your stupidity in a row, at least.

    August 19, 2013 at 10:24 pm |
  2. Robert Brown

    @skytag,
    “Standard propaganda teaching. Any good system of propaganda conditions the people subjected to it to reject anything that might cause them to question what they've been brainwashed to believe. I've been accused of lying hundreds of times in political discussions for telling a verifiable truth because it didn't support what my accuser had been brainwashed to believe.”
    This relates precisely to my original post. The enemy is winning the battle of influence. You say I’ve been brainwashed, I say it is the nonbelievers who are. One of us is wrong. Who has the most influence, believers or nonbelievers? What do people spend their time doing?
    “You've been taught that facts, evidence, reason and logic are less reliable that feelings and emotions when it comes to discerning truth from falsehood precisely because the authors of your beliefs understood how easy it is to manipulate people's feelings and emotions. Once they can get you to reject facts, evidence, and critical thinking they've got you where they want you: ready and willing to be manipulated by a good religious speaker, an inspirational sound bite, a good hymn, and so on.”
    I believe I have a healthy level of skepticism. For example, if you say something is a fact, that is a very strong statement. What I have found is that many things that are proclaimed to be fact are actually opinion. There is a huge difference between fact and opinion. So, whenever you are reading and the author writes something like this, “because of this (insert evidence) we know,” you should take it with a grain of salt. They don’t know, they think. It is opinion disguised as fact, well intentioned or not. They seem to believe it, you have to decide whether or not you do. Some people are more emotional than others, and yes, people can be swayed by emotion and powerful speakers temporarily, but away from the excitement, if that is all it was, it goes away. Take for example our current president, I watched some of his speeches during his first primary, he is an awesome speaker, very inspirational, reminded me of King. Everything he said sounded great and during the speech I would have voted for him, away from the hype, I decided not to. Reason and logic do prevail. We all have reasons for what we believe.

    August 19, 2013 at 9:52 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      If theists would admit that their god is an opinion we would have fewer problems in the world.

      August 19, 2013 at 10:13 pm |
      • Robert Brown

        Some believers wouldn't mind stating that In their opinion God is real.

        August 19, 2013 at 10:33 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          Typically sidestepping my point again eh Robert?

          August 19, 2013 at 10:57 pm |
        • Ken

          Robert
          Some people have the "opinion" that other, rival gods are the real ones, or that aliens are the real supernatural powers affecting the world. Everyone has an opinion, as the old saying goes...

          August 20, 2013 at 1:06 am |
    • Observer

      Robert Brown,

      So did your "logic" 5 years ago tell you to vote for the party that left the stock market plummeting with us losing more than a half million jobs each month and started a $2,000,000,000,000 war for false reasons?

      August 19, 2013 at 10:17 pm |
      • Robert Brown

        I haven't been very happy with either party for some time. I'm thinking of going libertarian.

        August 19, 2013 at 10:37 pm |
        • Observer

          Robet Brown,

          No one is thrilled with either party now, but reality is that if you don't vote for the lesser of the 2 evils, your vote is wasted. In a year of paralysis in Congress, Republicans did find time to vote FORTY times this year to repeal Romney/Obamacare in a totally useless waste of time.

          August 19, 2013 at 10:59 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          Observer, that is a terrible argument. It is flawed thinking like that that supports our lesser of 2 evil limited voting options.. You might as well argue that if one doesn't vote for the winner it is a wasted vote.

          August 20, 2013 at 12:03 am |
        • Observer

          Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          "Observer, that is a terrible argument. It is flawed thinking like that that supports our lesser of 2 evil limited voting options."

          It's not flawed thinking when you throw away a vote on someone with no chance to win when you could have picked which of the main 2 candidates was closer to what you wanted. While you might pat yourself on the back for voting for a far far distant third party, you may also end up with the worst of the two candidates that actually counted. You are also ignoring that you have a say within a party to vote for which of their several candidates will represent them.

          August 20, 2013 at 1:36 am |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          Like I said, it is that type of short term thinking that continues the farce of us thinking we "are making a choice". Neither side represents what I want and expect from our leaders. The O'Bama administration is supporting religious prayer, overwhelmingly dominated by Christianity, in a SCOTUS case coming up this fall. There really isn't enough difference between the two parties in actual practice, they just work very hard at marketing their minimal differences, hence "the lesser of 2 evils" analogy is more of a 2 sides of the same coin and will continue as long as they are allowed. I don't always vote 3rd party, sometimes I agree with you, depending on the choices. I just take exception to your wasted vote comment. I could easily argue that there are times voting for either major party is also a wasted vote.

          August 20, 2013 at 2:23 am |
        • Thinker...

          The only third party that would have a chance would be a centrist indpendant. Voting libertarian just takes votes from the republicans (effectivly giving your vote to the democrats) and voting green takes from the democrats. If you look back to the early 20th century the progressive party basicaly crippled the democrats(? can't for the life of me remember right now which it was) and cost them both congress and the presidency.

          The way voting works in the US causes a two party system. Splitting one party just causes the old party and the new splinter to fail since a simple majority is all that is needed to win in most cases. Voting for a third party can let your party know what it is you value in politics, but the end result is still a loss in the election to the guys you didn't vote for. The only way a third party vote can work out is if both republicans and democrats vote for an independant centrist since the votes would be taken from BOTH main parties.

          Unless the US were to implement a parliamentary system like several European countries, two parties is all that will ever work.

          August 20, 2013 at 1:46 pm |
      • Reality

        Our War on Terror and Aggression:

        An update (or how we are spending or how we have spent the USA taxpayers’ money to eliminate global terror and aggression)

        The terror and aggression via a Partial and Recent and Not So Recent Body Count

        As the koranic/mosque driven acts of terror and horror continue:

        The Muslim Conquest of India – 11th to 18th century

        ■"The likely death toll is somewhere between 2 million and 80 million. The geometric mean of those two limits is 12.7 million. "

        and the 19 million killed in the Mideast Slave Trade 7C-19C by Muslims.

        and more recently

        1a) 179 killed in Mumbai/Bombay, 290 injured

        1b) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh

        2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

        3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US troops killed in action, 3,480 and 928 in non combat roles. Iraqi civilians killed as of 05/10/2013/, 113,249-123,978 mostly due to suicide bombers, land mines and bombs of various types, http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

        4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

        5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

        6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

        7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

        8. UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

        9) The execution of an eloping couple in Afghanistan on 04/15/2009 by the Taliban.

        10) – Afghanistan: US troops 1,385 killed in action, 273 killed in non-combat situations as of 09/15/2011. Over 40,000 Afghan civilians killed due to the dark-age, koranic-driven Taliban acts of horror

        11) The killing of 13 citizen soldiers at Ft. Hood by a follower of the koran.

        12) 38 Russian citizens killed on March 29, 2010 by Muslim women suicide bombers.

        13) The May 28, 2010 attack on a Islamic religious minority in Pakistan, which have left 98 dead,

        14) Lockerbie is known internationally as the site where, on 21 December 1988, the wreckage of Pan Am Flight 103 crashed as a result of a terrorist bomb. In the United Kingdom the event is referred to as the Lockerbie disaster, the Lockerbie bombing, or simply Lockerbie. Eleven townspeople were killed in Sherwood Crescent, where the plane's wings and fuel tanks plummeted in a fiery explosion, destroying several houses and leaving a huge crater, with debris causing damage to a number of buildings nearby. The 270 fatalities (259 on the plane, 11 in Lockerbie) were citizens of 21 nations.

        15 The daily suicide and/or roadside and/or mosque bombings in the terror world of Islam.

        16) Bombs sent from Yemen by followers of the koran which fortunately were discovered before the bombs were detonated.

        17) The killing of 58 Christians in a Catholic church in one of the latest acts of horror and terror in Iraq.

        18) Moscow airport suicide bombing: 35 dead, 130 injured. January 25, 2011.

        19) A Pakistani minister, who had said he was getting death threats because of his stance against the country's controversial blasphemy law, was shot and killed Wednesday, 3/2/2011

        20) two American troops killed in Germany by a recently radicalized Muslim, 3/3/2011

        21) the kidnapping and apparent killing of a follower of Zoraster in the dark world of Islamic Pakistan.

        22) Shariatpur, Bangladesh (CNN 3/30/2011) - Hena Akhter's last words to her mother proclaimed her innocence. But it was too late to save the 14-year-old girl. Her fellow villagers in Bangladesh's Shariatpur district had already passed harsh judgment on her. Guilty, they said, of having an affair with a married man. The imam from the local mosque ordered the fatwa, or religious ruling, and the punishment: 101 lashes delivered swiftly, deliberately in public. Hena dropped after 70 and died a week later.

        23) "October 4, 2011, 100 die as a truck loaded with drums of fuel exploded Tuesday at the gate of compound housing several government ministries on a busy Mogadishu street. It was the deadliest single bombing carried out by the al Qaeda-linked al-Shabab group in Somalia since their insurgency began. "

        o 24) Mon Jun 4, 2012 10:18am EDT
        o
        BAGHDAD (Reuters) – A suicide bomber detonated an explosive-packed car outside a Shi'ite Muslim office in central Baghdad on Monday, killing at least 26 people and wounding more than 190 in an attack bearing the hallmarks of Iraq's al Qaeda affiliate.
        The bombing on a Shi'ite religious office comes at a sensitive time, with the country's fractious Shi'ite, Sunni and Kurdish blocs locked in a crisis that threatens to unravel their power-sharing deal and spill into sectarian tensions."

        25) BURGAS, Bulgaria | Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:27am EDT

        (Reuters) – A suicide bomber carried out an attack that killed seven people in a bus transporting Israeli tourists in Bulgaria, the interior minister said on Thursday, and Israel said Iranian-backed Hezbollah militants were to blame.

        26 ) September 12, 2012
        U.S. AMBASSADOR KILLED
        Envoy to Libya dies in rocket blast

        27) Boston Marathon horror – April 2013, four dead, hundreds injured and maimed for life. A
        Continued below:

        Other elements of our War on Terror and Aggression:

        -Operation Iraqi Freedom- The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US Troops killed in action, 3,480 and 928 in non combat roles as of 09/15/2011/, 102,522 – 112,049 Iraqi civilians killed as of 9/16/2011/, mostly due http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

        – Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan: US troops 1,385 killed in action, 273 killed in non-combat situations as of 09/15/2011. Over 40,000 Afghan civilians killed mostly due to the dark-age, koranic-driven Taliban acts of horror,

        – Sa-dd-am, his sons and major he-nchmen have been deleted. Sa-dd-am's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes. Kuwait was saved.

        – Iran is being been contained. (beside containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)

        – North Korea is still u-ncivil but is contained.

        – Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

        – The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords. Unfortunately the Annapolis Peace Conference was not successful. And unfortunately the recent events in Gaza has put this situation back to “squ-are one”. And this significant stupidity is driven by the mythical foundations of both religions!!!

        – – Fa-na–tical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghanistan and Pakistan.

        – Timothy McVeigh was exe-cuted. Terry Nichols escaped the death penalty twice because of deadlocked juries. He was sentenced to 161 consecutive life terms without the possibility of parole,[3][7] and is incarcerated in ADX Florence, a super maximum security prison near Florence, Colorado. He shares a cellblock that is commonly referred to as "Bombers Row" with Ramzi Yousef and Ted Kaczynski

        – Eric Ru-dolph is spending three life terms in pri-son with no par-ole.

        – Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

        – Islamic Sudan, Dar-fur and So-malia are still terror hot spots.

        – The terror and tor-ture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends. Ra-dovan Karadzic was finally captured on 7/23/08 and is charged with genocide, crimes against humanity and violations of the law of war – charges related to the 1992-1995 civil war that followed Bosnia-Herzegovina's secession from Yugoslavia.

        The capture of Ratko Mladić: (Serbian Cyrillic: Ратко Младић, pronounced [râtkɔ mlǎːditɕ], born 12 March 1943[1][2]) is an accused war criminal and a former Bosnian Serb military leader. On May 31, 2011, Mladić was extradited to The Hague, where he was processed at the detention center that holds suspects for the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY).[3] His trial began on 3 June 2011.

        – the bloody terror brought about by the Ja-panese, Na-zis and Co-mmunists was with great difficulty eliminated by the good guys.

        – Bin Laden was executed for crimes against humanity on May 1, 2011

        – Ditto for Anwar al-Awlaki on September 30, 2011

        – Ditto for Abu Yahya al-Libi on June 5, 2012

        August 19, 2013 at 11:18 pm |
        • Reality

          In order to pay down our $16 trillion debt, we need to redirect money used to support religions especially the christian and islamic cons and put it towards paying off our obligations..

          To wit:

          Redirecting our funds and saving a lot of "souls":
          Saving 1.5 billion lost Muslims:
          There never were and never will be any angels i.e. no Gabriel, no Islam and therefore no more koranic-driven acts of horror and terror LIKE 9/11.

          – One trillion dollars over the next several years as the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan will end.

          – Eighteen billion dollars/yr to Pakistan will stop.

          – Four billion dollars/yr to Egypt will end.

          Saving 2 billion lost Christians including the Mormons:
          There were never any bodily resurrections and there will never be any bodily resurrections i.e. No Easter, no Christianity!!!

          – The Mormon empire will now become taxable as will all Christian "religions" and evangelical non-profits since there is no longer any claim to being a tax-exempt religion.

          – the faith-based federal projects supported by both Bush and Obama will be eliminated saving $385 million/yr and another $2 billion/yr in grants.

          Giving to religious groups in the USA, mostly Chrisian in 2010, totaled $95.8 billion,

          – Saving 15.5 million Orthodox followers of Judaism:
          Abraham and Moses never existed.

          – Four billion dollars/yr to Israel saved.

          – All Jewish sects and non-profits will no longer be tax exempt.

          Now all we need to do is convince these 3.5+ billion global and local citizens that they have been conned all these centuries Time for a YouTube,Twitter and FaceBook campaign!!!!

          August 19, 2013 at 11:20 pm |
    • Cpt. Obvious

      I think most believers are brainwashed. I do not think most nonbelievers are brainwashed. I think most nonbelievers have simply learned how to spot brainwashing.

      I still feel the effects of my brainwashing, for sure. Reason is what made me atheist. The logical part was easy, but it took me months to gather the courage to follow the simple logic I couldn't escape. God belief is the hardest addiction to quit.

      August 19, 2013 at 10:22 pm |
      • Robert Brown

        Doubt is easy, but you had to choose what things to believe. You must have considered the idea that there was no God to be the most logical conclusion. So, if you don't mind sharing, what convinced you? What is your reason?

        August 19, 2013 at 10:48 pm |
        • tallulah13

          Humans have worshiped literally thousands of gods throughout history. Those gods have ALWAYS reflected the morals and the aesthetics of the cultures that invented them. Most of those gods represented natural phenomena that our relatively primitive ancestors had no way of understanding. Why else would so many disparate cultures have gods of thunder? It is no coincidence that there is no need for thunder gods now that we understand the mechanisms of lighting. Gods are/were a way of appealing to and controlling the unknown.

          No single specific god ever developed simultaneously in two unrelated regions. No god has ever gone where humans did not take them. It took the christian god 1500 years to do something so simple as cross an ocean. He had to wait for humans to take him to the New World.

          This isn't even touching on the scientific evidence that shows that no gods were needed to create anything. I'll leave the scientific explanation to someone else. History is what convinced me that gods are not real. When I think about it honestly now, the whole notion of gods seems rather like childish wishful thinking.

          August 19, 2013 at 11:14 pm |
        • Ken

          Robert
          The "most logical conclusion" probably was that the claim that God actually existed wasn't very convincing. Usually, it's a rejection of claims that God is real rather than claims made by atheists that they know that he isn't, see?

          August 20, 2013 at 12:19 am |
        • skytag

          @Robert Brown: "Doubt is easy, but you had to choose what things to believe. You must have considered the idea that there was no God to be the most logical conclusion. So, if you don't mind sharing, what convinced you? What is your reason?"

          I spent four decades as a Christian. I attended church for much of that time, read the Bible, prayed, did things like teach Sunday School, contributed financially, and so on.

          But over time it became more and more difficult for me to accept the explanations Christians use to rationalize why the real world doesn't match what they'd have us believe. For example:

          – I didn't see anything in the way Christians lived their lives to suggest there is any supernatural force helping them be better people. I do think to some extent they are better people, but that's easily explained by the fact that Christianity attracts the kind of people who want to be good people. I saw more or less the same problems in Christians as I saw in other people.

          Christians rationalize that we're not perfect and blah, blah, blah, but they aren't just "not perfect," they're nothing to suggest there is any God or spirit making them better in any way. I was a Christian for about four decades and have considered myself an atheist for several years now. I'm just as honest, compassionate, caring, and in general just as good a person as an atheist as I was when I was a Christian.

          – I'd always been taught that God answers prayer, yet there is no objective evidence God has ever answered any prayer. When confronted with this Christians start rationalizing with arguments such as, "If God answered prayers then that would be proof he existed and then people wouldn't need faith." So, God answers prayer, except that he doesn't. When people pray for something and it happens they say God did it. When they pray for something and it doesn't happen, they make excuses to give God a pass. There's no evidence any God is answering any of their prayers.

          – God could smite Saul and make him blind on the road to Damascus on the way to persecute Christians, but he couldn't lift a finger to change Hitler's heart? If God is so powerful and his spirit works in men's hearts, how did the Nazis manage to rise to power in a nation whose population was almost exclusively Christian at the time? All that praying and church going and bible reading and all it took was a couple of good speakers and some well crafted propaganda to get them to abandon their Christian attitudes and commit some of the worst atrocities in human history. If there is a God, he's utterly useless. It wasn't God who liberated the death camps, it was Allied and Russian soldiers and lots of tanks.

          If there were really a god out there I would expect him to reveal "truths" about himself to any sincere seeker, which would mean all religions started by sincere seekers would have those truths in common. As tallulah13 points out, there have been thousands of religions over the course of history. There is nothing they all have in common. For example, if believing in Jesus is so essential, as Christians would have us believe, why has that essential doctrine been absent from every religion that didn't have its roots in Christianity? Why hasn't God revealed that to the originators of other religions?

          On the other hand, the enormous diversity in religions is easily explained and even to be expected if there is no God. Without a real god on which to base them every religion is just whatever some well-intentioned people could imagine.

          Then of course there's the biggie, which that there is no objective evidence whatsoever that any god exists. No rational reason whatsoever to believe in him. You believe in him because you like that narrative better than the alternative, not because there's any objective reason to believe it.

          Occam's razor ... is a principle of parsimony, economy, or succinctness used in logic and problem-solving. It states that among competing hypotheses, the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions should be selected. In other words, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. — Wikipedia

          Why is there no evidence of a god? Why is there no evidence that any prayer has ever been answered? Why are their so many religions? Why didn't God do anything to stop or lessen the slaughter of 50 million people in WWII? If the unborn are so precious to God, why does he let millions of them die in miscarriages every year? The simplest answer to all these questions and many more is: There is no God.

          August 20, 2013 at 3:36 am |
      • Lionly Lamb

        Sired Obvious wrote, "Reason is what made me atheist."

        Please name me your reasons that made you believe you are now an atheist...

        August 19, 2013 at 10:53 pm |
        • Ken

          I don't know about Obvious, but my only "reason" for becoming an atheist is that I realized that I was believing in God based completely on faith, meaning that I really had no sound reason for believing whatsoever. I looked at the case for believing and saw that it depended completely on blind trust. The case for believing really hadn't been made, no more than the case for any other god, so why choose to believe that it had, in all fairness?

          August 20, 2013 at 1:23 am |
        • Robert Brown

          Ken, you are correct, blind faith will not last, as your experience proves. I don’t think people are argued into faith. The good news is proclaimed, the seed is sown. The gospel is presented, the seed is watered. God gives the increase, not people. This is why Jesus said, you must be born again. You have to have your own personal supernatural salvation experience with God. This creates a lasting faith.
          A person becomes trapped in quick sand. He begs for help. His savior throws him a rope. The person decides whether or not to take the rope.

          August 20, 2013 at 10:30 am |
        • skytag

          @Robert Brown: "Ken, you are correct, blind faith will not last, as your experience proves."

          Sure it will, if you reinforce it regularly and surround yourself with influences that encourage you to keep believing it.

          "I don’t think people are argued into faith. The good news is proclaimed, the seed is sown. The gospel is presented, the seed is watered. God gives the increase, not people."

          Blah, blah, blah. More religious claptrap. This is exactly the kind of stuff I'm talking about. Every time you dutifully regurgitate this fluff it reinforces your blind faith. You engage in a constant effort to maintain your brainwashed state.

          Seeking God requires an investment of time and energy. Prayer, reading sacred works, reading other writings, talking to other believers, and so on. What's my incentive to divert time and energy from activities involving things I know to be real and enjoy to seek something I have no reason to believe is real? Seeking god makes no more sense to me than seeking buried treasure in my yard or seeking leprechauns.

          The only incentive to do investigate a religion is some inner desire to believe it. Here's what someone here said a while back:

          "You will find like I did that the more you seek, the more you find Him the more you realize He loves you and fall in love with Him also."

          This is the basic strategy people use to convince themselves of something they really want to believe from the outset. When you set out to investigate something with a desire to find it that bias makes it almost certain you'll eventually convince yourself you've found it. You'll be quick to interpret phenomena as evidence it's true and equally quick to reject evidence contradicting it. You'll reject sound arguments against it out of hand while accepting seriously flawed arguments for it.

          Your "search" won't be a search for the truth, but a search to justify believing the narrative you're investigating. In a predominantly Christian nation your "search" via the path of Christianity will almost always lead you to some Christian version of "truth." In Saudi Arabia your search along the path of Islam will almost certainly lead you the Muslim version of "truth." Somewhere else it might be Hinduism or Buddhism, in another time and place it might be the Norse gods, the Egyptian gods, the Greek gods, the gods of a native American Indian tribe, even the Emperor of Japan.

          Here, as you "investigate" Christianity you'll immerse yourself in Christian influences. You'll hang out with Christians, read the Bible, pray, probably go to church at some point, and eventually "pros" column will eventually overwhelm the "cons" column and you'll conclude it must be true.

          How blind do you have to be to not see the exact same process works for virtually every religion? The "Truth™" you find is not absolute, it's just the narrative you found most appealing.

          "This is why Jesus said, you must be born again."

          Jesus said, the Bible says, blah, blah, blah. Keep regurgitating that stuff on a regular basis to ensure you don't have a chance to think about all this rationally.

          "You have to have your own personal supernatural salvation experience with God. This creates a lasting faith.
          A person becomes trapped in quick sand. He begs for help. His savior throws him a rope. The person decides whether or not to take the rope."

          More fact-free religious claptrap. It all sounds so wonderfully warm and fuzzy. Too bad there's no reason to believe any of it. Furthermore, you people never address the reality that the ropes most people get "thrown" to them are not the Christian rope. Open your eyes. Look outside the bubble and see what's really going on in this world.

          August 20, 2013 at 11:40 am |
        • Robert Brown

          “skytag

          @Robert Brown: "Ken, you are correct, blind faith will not last, as your experience proves."

          Sure it will, if you reinforce it regularly and surround yourself with influences that encourage you to keep believing it.”

          This may very well have been your experience skytag. I really don’t think I would be a believer today without being born again, with or without the continued influence. That is what I was trying to say yesterday, by only spending a few hours a week being influenced by God, it is a miracle there are believers left. Faith has to be affirmed and reaffirmed by God, not people.

          O ye of little faith, and he was standing right in front of them.

          August 20, 2013 at 12:31 pm |
      • hharri

        Obviously you have addictions. Don't project your problems onto others.

        August 20, 2013 at 2:34 am |
    • skytag

      "This relates precisely to my original post. The enemy is winning the battle of influence."

      Blah, blah, blah. That's what you been brainwashed to believe. You can't even proof there's an enemy.

      "You say I’ve been brainwashed, I say it is the nonbelievers who are. One of us is wrong. Who has the most influence, believers or nonbelievers? What do people spend their time doing?"

      Believers surround themselves with other believers who reinforce what they believe about God. Christians read the Bible. They read books of a religious nature, most of which reinforce what they already believe. They pray. They sing religious songs. They sit in pews and listen to good speakers reinforce what they believe. They have pictures of Jesus on their walls.

      In most case their indoctrination started as children or even infants, going to church on Sunday, sitting in Sunday School classes learning about Jesus and Noah. It's cult behavior. They immerse themselves in religious influences until the constant reinforcement of the same messages over and over from so many sources brainwashes them.

      Atheists do none of that. We belong to no organization whose purpose is to strengthen our belief there is no God. For the most part we read no pro-atheism books (I've never read one in my life). There is no atheist bible we read every day, no atheist bible school, no atheist Sunday school, no atheist youth activities or camps. We have no songs. We don't pray, though we do think. There is no brainwashing taking place on our side. Try dealing with reality for once in your life.

      August 20, 2013 at 2:25 am |
      • hharri

        Talk about arrogance

        August 20, 2013 at 2:32 am |
    • skytag

      "I believe I have a healthy level of skepticism."

      And yet you are convinced there is a god even without any evidence whatsoever of his existence.

      "For example, if you say something is a fact, that is a very strong statement. What I have found is that many things that are proclaimed to be fact are actually opinion. There is a huge difference between fact and opinion. So, whenever you are reading and the author writes something like this, “because of this (insert evidence) we know,” you should take it with a grain of salt. They don’t know, they think. It is opinion disguised as fact, well intentioned or not. They seem to believe it, you have to decide whether or not you do."

      You're doing a great job of describing religious belief. Believers are constantly stating their beliefs as if they were facts.

      "Some people are more emotional than others, and yes, people can be swayed by emotion and powerful speakers temporarily, but away from the excitement, if that is all it was, it goes away."

      Exactly, which is why believers are taught to adopt a lifestyle in which they are constantly reinforcing their religious feelings. Church on Sundays, read the Bible every day, pray often, listen to religious music, Wednesday night Bible study, constant repetition of sound bites and phrases that reinforce their beliefs, and so on. Muslims are expected to pray five times a day. Catholics attend confession. Mormons go to their temples, hold Family Home Evening, and visit their fellow members in their homes. Lifestyle choices based on religious beliefs such as not drinking, not smoking, the Amish way of life and so on. It's all designed to continually reinforce the brainwashing.

      "Take for example our current president, I watched some of his speeches during his first primary, he is an awesome speaker, very inspirational, reminded me of King. Everything he said sounded great and during the speech I would have voted for him, away from the hype, I decided not to. Reason and logic do prevail."

      If you voted for McCain reason and logic most certainly did not prevail.

      "We all have reasons for what we believe."

      Blah, blah, blah. Of course we have reasons. That doesn't mean your reasons are valid or what you believe is true. People who believe the exact opposite of you have their reasons too. Claiming you have reasons is worthless. Everyone has reasons, regardless of what he believes.

      August 20, 2013 at 2:39 am |
  3. Lionly Lamb

    Jerome Haltom wrote me below stating, "I at least don't tend to hold "knowledge" accountable. You see, knowledge cannot do anything. Only people can. Besides that, what's the point of holding something accountable without a serious proposed method of doing something about it? And I have doubt preventing people from learning things is somehow going to a) work and b) actually help."

    Why then are there higher learning facilities where money is needed to buy folks an education thusly putting up roadblocks for those who want to be educated but lack the needed funding..?

    Education has become a traded commodity and the stockholders of traded highly skilled workers are educating only the ones with money leaving in their wakes all those less fortunate folks to suffer for lacking an education thereby seeking out a meager lowlife living due no real funding for them to gain a college or university diploma... These poor and uneducated folks will suffer the consequences that comes with no means of being educated...

    But the world is in dire need of lowlife workers to fill all the lowlife jobs... 😦 😦 😦

    August 19, 2013 at 9:16 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      No means of being educated? Really? Have you heard of libraries?

      August 19, 2013 at 11:05 pm |
  4. Rundvelt

    The ignorance of Lawrence...

    > If you believe in evil, then you believe in good. If you believe in good and evil, then you believe in a moral law. If you believe in a moral law, then you believe in a Moral Law Giver.

    First of all, I don't believe in moral law. I make my own determinations as to what is good and evil. You'd probably think that gay marriage is evil. I'd say it's neither good nor evil. We have different viewpoints. So there isn't a consistency among humans. And therefore, this viewpoint does not require a moral law giver.

    > Absolute truth by definition is outside of ourselves, in other words, we don't get to say that 2+2=5.

    No, it's not. Absolute truth can be contained within our minds. For example, it is an absolute truth that the being that I think I am has thoughts.

    > It's the same with moral absolutes, we don't get to define good and evil, they have been defined for us.

    No, it's not the same. Because morality is subjective to the individual. Not to mention, good and evil has been defined by humans, although you believe it's a god. Morality isn't the same as truth.

    > Culture may take a spin on it, but some things are good, and some things are evil no matter what culture you're in, and societies can't define universal morality.

    Just because a large percentage of people agree on something doesn't make it a law. Hell, lots of people agreeing doesn't even make it correct. What you're doing is saying "because everyone agrees that these few heinous crimes are bad, therefore it's clear that there's a moral law giver." What I'm saying is that when things are evident, they're evident for everyone.

    It's not rocket science.

    August 19, 2013 at 7:52 pm |
    • Lionly Lamb

      Sired Rundvelt wrote, "What I'm saying is that when things are evident, they're evident for everyone."

      C'mon now... You know damn good and well that there will never be any evident issue that everyone will never ever agree on just about anything contested don't you..?

      August 19, 2013 at 8:05 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Lawrence,

      If you believe morals are given by an ultimate law giver you don't practice morality, you follow orders.

      August 19, 2013 at 8:41 pm |
    • Vic

      Well, I believe "morality" is part of the "Natural Law" which is indeed outside of ourselves, meaning the "source" of it. Humans do not make the "Natural Law" but perceive it. We are equipped with built-in functions to perceive "morality." Those built-in functions are "Basic instincts, Intuition, and Common Sense."

      As a Christian, I believe that "Natural Law" is part of the "Natural Revelation" by God.

      August 19, 2013 at 10:03 pm |
      • Sue

        Vic, morality has demonstrably changed very significantly over the past several hundred years, re what is acceptable se.xual behavior, re the rights of women, and re many other issues. That means that your "natural law" as you are claiming has also changed, if as you claim morality is part of it. Did your god get it wrong then, in the early versions? It clearly isn't immutable.

        August 19, 2013 at 10:29 pm |
        • Vic

          "Dynamism" is well within the "Natural Law" whether it being variance in our imperfect perception or variance in our imperfect management to construct in general consensus, where we could be right or wrong in one or both! However, the basics cut through as crystal clear and escape our error.

          August 19, 2013 at 11:14 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          Well isn't that convienient Vic. If morality changes for the better that is what god (specifically your god) meant the whole time! Of course you have no basis for that any more than you do for the original "Natural Law" argument.

          August 20, 2013 at 12:09 am |
        • Ken

          Vic
          Couldn't the "basics" just be the things evolution hardwired into us?

          August 20, 2013 at 1:31 am |
      • skytag

        More of Vic's beliefs wholly unsupported by any evidence or logic. Shocker.

        August 20, 2013 at 11:44 am |
      • Rundvelt

        > Well, I believe "morality" is part of the "Natural Law" which is indeed outside of ourselves, meaning the "source" of it.

        You also believe that a talking snake tricked a woman to eat fruit that God told her was a no-no. So you'll have to excuse me if I don't take your belief at face value.

        > Humans do not make the "Natural Law" but perceive it.

        I'd agree to that. The laws in the natural universe are not made by man.

        > We are equipped with built-in functions to perceive "morality." Those built-in functions are "Basic instincts, Intuition, and Common Sense."

        Actually, these aren't built in. And a perfect example of this is your own bible. As years have passed, things that people believed were just is no longer. So, were they right then or are we right now? Are the sins of the father the sins of the son?

        > As a Christian, I believe that "Natural Law" is part of the "Natural Revelation" by God.

        Yeah, and there are people who believe they are God. There are people who believe that the world is flat. There are people who believe they're immortal. Beliefs are dime a dozen and worth nothing.

        August 23, 2013 at 1:35 pm |
    • Cpt. Obvious

      Absolutely brilliant, Rundvelt. I doff my cap.

      August 19, 2013 at 10:26 pm |
  5. Lionly Lamb

    (Go ahead BB moderator delete this)

    The pharmaceutical organizations seem to be “possibly at odds” with the potential usage of medical marijuana as Dr. Gupta has lain open... The Hubble space telescope has found there to be galaxies within what astronomers thought would only be darkness... The Large Hadron Collider (LHC) can only see the innerness of an atom's visibility thru colliding points intersecting but cannot see the very small parts that will never be viewed due their extreme smallness which our scientific instruments cannot detect... I see atoms colliding via the LHC as being similar to celestial objects colliding such as two planets or two moons which has not yet been seen by any astronomical observances...

    Today’s Science is but a stone's throw away from its technological first fruits of knowledge... I acknowledge that technical advancements are worthy of being exemplified yet the nature of any technology dare I say usurps the moralizing relativity of technological civil mindedness... I cite the usages of chemical fertilizers and the harm it does... I cite the drilling for fossil fuels and the mistakes that occur... I cite the nuclear power plants that have laid radioactivity into the environment... Do you need more citations declaring humanity’s technical marvels laying waste to this world’s environment..?

    August 19, 2013 at 7:18 pm |
    • bostontola

      Lionly,
      I'm not certain what your point is, but if your are saying man's application of science is imperfect, I agree.

      August 19, 2013 at 7:21 pm |
      • Lionly Lamb

        Most all of mankind's supposed technical advances are hardly ever held responsible should any foreseeable problem occur... Yes BP paid up and the oil spill in Alaska paid up but what about the chemical fertilizers that get into the waters and tend to pollute and all mannerisms of plant life grow and choke off other plants and even fish..? What about the 3 nuclear plants that are nightmarishly giving off radioactive pollutants into the environment and still there is need for such power plants being built in countries whose governances are still lacking regulatory laws..?

        And although much technological advances are being made yet at what costs are they being weaned..?

        August 19, 2013 at 7:45 pm |
        • bostontola

          All true. Politicians are very short sited and prefer to let business milk nature without factoring in the cost in the future (for the obvious reason, the profiteers fill the politician's war chest). That happens with or without science. Science advances man's ability to exploit nature faster, so there is an open question; Will man advance morally fast enough to compensate for his ability to advance technically? It is an excellent philosophical question at this point. I see religion on the wrong end of this moral question. Christianity views nature as a gift to man to exploit as he will. Many religious people think their god will protect them, so who cares.

          August 19, 2013 at 7:57 pm |
        • JimK57

          The means by which we live have outdistanced the ends for which we live. Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men.

          ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

          August 19, 2013 at 8:01 pm |
        • Jerome Haltom

          I at least don't tend to hold "knowledge" accountable. You see, knowledge cannot do anything. Only people can. Besides that, what's the point of holding something accountable without a serious proposed method of doing something about it? And I have doubt preventing people from learning things is somehow going to a) work and b) actually help.

          August 19, 2013 at 8:04 pm |
        • Lionly Lamb

          Sired Boston wrote, "Science advances man's ability to exploit nature faster, so there is an open question; Will man advance morally fast enough to compensate for his ability to advance technically?"

          Moralities are nowadays no more than a lingering inquisitive substance of vileness to the hierarchal agendas whose ruling populace have deep pockets being filled by those industrialist capitalists who see only the $$$... The fears that overall mankind once had are nowadays being thwarted thru easing the multitudes mindset with all mannerisms of technical wonders that tends to make many folks become illiterate regarding the future of mankind's existence...

          [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-7uwshsfFI&w=640&h=360]

          August 19, 2013 at 8:31 pm |
  6. Lionly Lamb

    I'm back..!

    August 19, 2013 at 7:01 pm |
  7. hharri

    Silly. No debate. Al qeada decides what may be posted and her 1,287 other aliases enforce her wishes. As long as you hate god, you have a free pass to rip Christians apart. (Gee, almost forgot, they don't hate what doesn't exist! You certainly fooled everyone with that one observer.)

    Just remember, Hitler was a reborner. They take him literally. They have nothing negative to say about him either. Just don't mention pat Robertson or they will take half of eternity to condemn him!

    August 19, 2013 at 6:43 pm |
    • niknak

      Who on here has ripped a Christian apart?
      All we have done is asked for proof of what you believers keep saying is fact.

      Oh yeah, I forgot, just questioning a believer is "Christian bashing!"

      August 19, 2013 at 6:47 pm |
    • Observer

      hharri

      "(Gee, almost forgot, they don't hate what doesn't exist! You certainly fooled everyone with that one observer.)"

      You're not fooling anyone with that ignorance. They hate people who believe in God.

      Try again. You're the one foolish enough to say atheists hate God. That can only happen to your fellow believers. Talk to them.

      August 19, 2013 at 7:00 pm |
    • ıɹɹɐɥɥ

      pıouɐɹɐd ɯ,ı lɐuoısnlǝp ʎluo ʇou

      August 19, 2013 at 7:04 pm |
    • bostontola

      Wow, I haven't seen an incoherent rant like that in a while hharri, thanks!

      August 19, 2013 at 7:09 pm |
      • Observer

        hharri = faith.

        That's why we see the incoherent babbling.

        August 19, 2013 at 8:06 pm |
        • Akira

          Now that you point it out, that makes total sense.

          August 19, 2013 at 8:58 pm |
        • truthprevails1

          hharri could also be Austin...just as crazy

          August 20, 2013 at 8:33 am |
  8. bostontola

    Why does it seem like so many religious people on this blog can only argue by appealing to some perceived authority?

    They quote the bible, scientists, important historical figures, etc. while many of these quotes are interesting, they don't substantiate an argument. It seems that these people have abandoned their own faculty to think and substi.tuted other people's thoughts.

    Try thinking through what point you want to make, get substantiating evidence, and form an argument. You may learn to enjoy it.

    August 19, 2013 at 6:25 pm |
    • niknak

      There in lies the rub Botswana.
      If they ever did use logic and reason they would find that they could not find any facts to back up their god hypothesis, and they would be forced to leave it or keep living the lie.

      Many do the latter, and keep going thru the motions just so they won't be ostracized by their family/friends.

      But some, like the ones just below, have bought the scam hook line and stinker, and will never let go regardless of how absurd their position is.

      August 19, 2013 at 6:30 pm |
      • bostontola

        I have no hope of applying logic to the god hypothesis, but logic can be applied to specific religious beliefs and dogma. You are right, if logic and fact is applied to dogma, dogma is in trouble. That should not dissuade them though, a lively argument is fun.

        August 19, 2013 at 6:35 pm |
        • niknak

          A lively argument is fun, to people who can logically argue and understand when they might be wrong.

          But to a believer, ANYTHING that goes against their belief can't be argued. Ever.
          They are like a stubborn dog with a towel in it's mouth that won't let go regardless of how hard you pull on it.

          We are lucky to be born in a western nation in the later half of the 20th century.
          Try doing this in the Middle East, or about 400 years ago, and you and I would be hunted down and killed by the same people who profess to be followers of a loving god.

          August 19, 2013 at 6:42 pm |
        • skytag

          @niknak: The real problem you encounter when debating believers is that they aren't subject to any constraints. They never have to prove anything, nothing they claim has to be testable or verifiable in any way. They just posit something they or someone else made up and act as if they've given you a valid argument.

          August 19, 2013 at 8:17 pm |
        • Athy

          Or endlessly quote the damn bible as if it were the ultimate, indisputable truth. Man, if that's not ridiculous. A 2000-year-old "reference" book. No credentials, no experimental data, no nothing. (Or "know" nothing, if you prefer.) You can't argue with that kind of mind set.

          August 19, 2013 at 10:54 pm |
    • hharri

      Hail divine insight!

      August 19, 2013 at 7:43 pm |
    • JimK57

      Because there no proof to be offered. It seems simple to me.

      August 19, 2013 at 7:52 pm |
      • bostontola

        No one is asking for proof, just logical arguments based on validated evidence.

        August 19, 2013 at 8:01 pm |
        • JimK57

          There is none. I don't see why people have a problem with this.

          August 19, 2013 at 8:03 pm |
        • bostontola

          Some people are skeptical, they prefer validated evidence before they buy into something. It's their nature. For people who don't need it to buy in, I bet they would want validated evidence if they were accused of a crime. It's not hard to extend that desire for evidence from there.

          August 19, 2013 at 8:11 pm |
        • skytag

          @JimK57: "There is none. I don't see why people have a problem with this."

          That's because you're in the cult looking out, not outside the cult looking in.

          As a non-believer, I need an objective reason to take anything you say seriously. I hear you say X, a Muslim say Y, and a Buddhist say Z. Why should I believe any of you? There are people in hundreds of religions, each with its own narrative. Why should I give any credence to any of them when none of them can offer any objective supporting evidence or logic?

          Surely you don't expect me to believe you have the Truth™ just because you say you do, yet that seems to be the only argument you people offer. That may be good enough for sheep who want to be in a flock, but it's not good enough for me.

          Furthermore, anyone with any sense knows that people can, and often do believe things that are wrong. A belief with no supporting evidence is just a belief, and could easily be wrong.

          August 19, 2013 at 8:52 pm |
  9. niknak

    I am not going to take the time to look it up, but I will wager that the same percentage of millennials that are leaving the church are also leaving the rural areas and the GOP too.
    Why would they stay in any of those groups/places, if they had the intelligence and opportunity to go elsewhere?

    Just like the GOP, you xtians are going to need to rebrand your company if you want the consumers to buy your product.

    August 19, 2013 at 4:08 pm |
    • Honey Badger Don't Care

      They are constantly rebranding. Some more extreme than the others. Thats why there are so many sects of xtianity.

      August 19, 2013 at 4:34 pm |
    • lamelionheart

      Remember well the "company" one keeps for in the end the owner; he reaps that which was sown and divides the tares from the goodness using the tares for recycling ponderings giving the good seeds up for yet another generation ever cycling the goodness with the tares... There will always be goodness growing alongside the tares but the seed planters know well the differences and waits in patience; pondering the seasons to reap gently their harvested goodness away from the torn tares of worthlessness...

      August 19, 2013 at 4:40 pm |
    • Responding to the Pride

      Niknak–You say: "Why would they stay in any of those groups/places, if they had the intelligence and opportunity to go elsewhere?" Are you really suggesting that only dumb people and/or people without resources stay in rural areas? The idea of making a living off the land (aka farmers) and/or living in a quite, peaceful setting is for idiots? Wow.

      August 19, 2013 at 4:42 pm |
      • In Santa we trust

        rttp, I doubt that you are a farmer. Migration to cities has long been the rural way.

        August 19, 2013 at 5:23 pm |
      • niknak

        Where in my post did I say living in a rural area is for idiots?
        I said that people growing up there are leaving those areas, just like millenials are leaving the church because there is nothing there for them.
        Millenials who have ambitions and do well in school are leaving the rural areas. Look it up. Been happening for years now.
        They are also leaving the GOP.
        That was the point of my post.
        Sorry you did not get that.

        August 19, 2013 at 5:37 pm |
        • truthprevails1

          You're right. I grew up in a town of less than 400 people, went to high school in a town of less than 5000. My friends who stayed around the small town still attend church and are almost oblivious to the world around them. When you leave the rural community and are exposed to more people, you tend to also be exposed to more points of view.
          I raised my daughter in a large city. Very multicultural way to bring up children. She was exposed to people from all walks of life. I was a non-practicing christian when she was born, her Dad a pagan...we decided to let her decide for herself.
          There is a difference between children who get the exposure opposed to those who don't.
          All we really need to do is look back over post-war era to see this change happening. There is, what I believe to be, a vast change from those who went to college in the 40's and 50's and so on to today. Women have now been in the workforce for 30-50 years; smaller families; bigger cities; the internet...it all plays into this.
          The church is great for social gathering and for centuries has brought people together. However, as we have expanded out, we've found other ways to socialize.

          August 19, 2013 at 6:25 pm |
        • niknak

          Sound like a very healthy way to live TruthP.

          Many believers on here think I care about their beliefs and how they live.
          I could care less.
          What I care about, and why I come here and post, is that I am sick and tired of the believers trying to pass off their belief as fact.
          Then trying to inject their beliefs into our secular nation (and making me pay higher taxes to support their houses of worship that pay almost no taxes).

          If believers came out with a statement along the lines of "We know we don't have any facts to back up our claims, and we are not going to try to pass laws to include our beliefs of god(s) into our government, but we are going to believe and leave you non believers alone and stay to ourselves and have our churches pay their fair share of local taxes." then I would not come here anymore.

          But that is not what they do. In fact, in parts of the world, the believers will kill you if you don't go along with them.

          August 19, 2013 at 6:37 pm |
        • skytag

          "Where in my post did I say living in a rural area is for idiots?"

          When you said, "Why would they stay in any of those groups/places, if they had the intelligence and opportunity to go elsewhere?" One of those "places" was rural areas.

          August 19, 2013 at 6:39 pm |
        • niknak

          Yeah Skyhommie, all the people with options are leaving as fast as they can.
          That does not mean the rest are idiots, which I never said in my post.

          But go ahead and start an argument with me.
          That seems to be your MO regarding my posts anyway.

          August 19, 2013 at 6:49 pm |
        • truthprevails1

          I moved back to a small town but I moved in with a Recovering-Catholic. I already had my questions about the merits of christianity when I moved here, so having an open mind certainly helped me realize how little of a need there was to hold the belief any longer.
          We live our lives freely. We work; we pay our taxes...we have our fur babies and our friends. We see beauty in this world but yet appreciate how extremely volatile our planet is. We see the good in people until given reason not to. Some of our closest friends are LGBT and we both have cousin's who are. We don't see that we the god factor when life is pleasant without.
          I argue against religion when it imposes on basic rights. I figure if a person is not causing harm to another or to society, then live and let live.

          August 19, 2013 at 7:11 pm |
        • hharri

          Hitler rules!

          August 19, 2013 at 7:44 pm |
  10. Georgia

    "God" is no longer relevant. As we become more intelligent, ask more questions, learn how the world actually works, and find alternative means of satisfying our "spiritual" needs, we do not need this concept of God. In the words of Epicurus, "IS God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?"

    August 19, 2013 at 3:40 pm |
    • lamelionheart

      [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LjaCu_NA2Q&w=640&h=360]

      August 19, 2013 at 3:57 pm |
  11. Dyslexic doG

    I was hiking in the mountains last weekend and a bush burst into flames but it was not consumed. A voice came out of the bush and said "there is no god and religion is foolishness". I shrugged my shoulders and thought "OK ... I suppose a voice from a burning bush can't be wrong." So take note everyone. cheers!

    August 19, 2013 at 3:39 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      I'd need corroborating testimony from a snake or donkey in order to believe it.
      I used to engage in theological discussions with a horse, but I got sick and tired of him calling me "Wilbur".

      August 19, 2013 at 3:46 pm |
  12. mzh

    I think another major problem is most of these kids comes to the world out of good luck of their parents who are mostly not married and also most of the a woman is single and young get few kids and she enjoys her life and could take good care of her kids very little and the kid sees the father once in a while.

    A woman has babies from multiple fathers, sometimes she does not now who could be the father then they go for DNA test… sometimes funny things is those men fight for one baby but only he would be winner whose DNA will match…
    It reminds me the time of pre-Islamic time in Mecca… at that time a woman will have physical relationship with for example ten men and if she gets pregnant and those ten men will stand up and she will chose the father of the baby that she is going to deliver as there was no technology for DNA test and after Islam came they have changed 180 degrees and they have removed all these dirty bad actions from their characters… and they become brothers and sisters in Islam…

    There are some cultures where a baby is called bustard if the baby comes out side of marriage… and its not the fault of the baby but the parents are the responsible.

    Also when a child is being grown up and seeing that mom is cheating on father and vice versa, what message the child will get? I am sure that child will grow up with total confused… and when a mom does things that she is not supposed to do and when her child grow up, the child repeats the same thing that the child learn from the parents or single mom or father… there are many more… I hope this will end… it only could possible with Islam… please talk to a reverted women when she goes to school by covering herself up vs a women half of her body is open and you will know the one is covered gets more respect form man than the one is uncovered… and many more…

    I think some portion of responsibilities goes to parents and the environment the child is being grown up… also these are not my assumptions but facts that are happening in our society...

    Peace!!!

    August 19, 2013 at 2:41 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      "I think another major problem is most of these kids comes to the world out of good luck of their parents who are mostly not married and also most of the a woman is single and young get few kids "

      Nonsense. The millennial rejection of organized religion is not a derivative of an increase in single-parent families.

      Nor is the increase in single-parent families the result of increased secularism. It is directly the result of Christians looking the other way at divorce.

      Adultery is the first 'sin' that Christian communities are willing to forgive. That and 'coveting' in general which goes right along with it.

      August 19, 2013 at 2:46 pm |
    • CommonSensed

      99% of people are religious due to brainwashing upon birth.

      August 19, 2013 at 2:47 pm |
      • Segoy

        What did you use to come up with that number? The P.I.D.O.O.M.A. method?

        August 19, 2013 at 3:10 pm |
        • CommonSensed

          I either made it up or stole it. Either way, I used the same methods used by those who created the religious dogmas currently in place for the major religions.

          Have a nice day.

          August 19, 2013 at 4:21 pm |
        • Segoy

          So you approve of those methods since you use them? That's good to know.

          Oh, I always have a great day 🙂

          August 19, 2013 at 4:53 pm |
        • In Santa we trust

          Segoy
          "Oh, I always have a great day"

          Past performance does not necessarily predict future results.

          August 19, 2013 at 5:21 pm |
        • Segoy

          Regardless, the day is thus far great.

          August 19, 2013 at 5:40 pm |
      • Dyslexic doG

        that number is absolutely correct!!! A voice in a burning bush told him!

        August 19, 2013 at 3:30 pm |
        • Segoy

          Good to see that you support and follow his fact finding method. Followers like you should know their place.

          August 19, 2013 at 4:54 pm |
        • Dyslexic doG

          I know my place and that place is laughing at you ...

          August 19, 2013 at 5:21 pm |
        • Segoy

          If that is where your belief leads you. Fools and little children tend to laugh at anything they don't understand. May your ignorance keep you happy.

          August 19, 2013 at 5:42 pm |
        • Doobs

          Fools and little children will believe anything a perceived authority figure tells them to believe. That's why religious indoctrination begins as soon as the child (or fool) is born.

          August 20, 2013 at 1:44 am |
        • Segoy

          Too bad that doesn't explain adults that find their faith.

          August 20, 2013 at 1:07 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      You start of by saying "I think" then turn around and say it is fact. Between the bad English and the opinion/facts you have presented, is it any wonder why your posts are ridiculed?

      August 19, 2013 at 2:48 pm |
      • OTOH

        I was allowing lots of lat.itude with the poor English, thinking that this might be a foreign person; but she/he said that she/he is an American, so I'm leaning toward thinking that she/he is just not very bright nor well-educated.

        August 19, 2013 at 2:53 pm |
        • Athy

          Strikes me as more like a recent American, but not yet completely fluent in English. Spells most words correctly, but has trouble with sentence construction. I say give him a break.

          August 19, 2013 at 4:27 pm |
        • mzh

          Thanks guys for being so nice to me...

          I am a proud Muslim American Citizen by naturalization like your forefathers migrated in this land of opportunities...

          I am an IT guy and English is my second language, so please take it easy on me, will you? 🙂

          Thanks in advance with Salaam to you all....

          August 19, 2013 at 6:34 pm |
        • OTOH

          mzh,
          "so please take it easy on me,"

          Ok, will do - with the language difficulty, but not with the promoting a sequel to a sequel to a sequel of primitive Middle Eastern Hebrew guys' fantasies and superst.itions.

          August 19, 2013 at 6:47 pm |
        • G to the T

          MZH – "Proud muslim american" – odd that you should put muslim before american. I wonder where your first loyalties lie...

          August 21, 2013 at 12:12 pm |
      • niknak

        Typical for a believer.
        Their beliefs turn into facts by the end of the discussion.

        August 19, 2013 at 2:55 pm |
      • mzh

        My sincere apologies for that… I usually use a word doc to compose and then copy it to the site… I have added that line on that text box and perhaps did not pay attention… sorry for that and its good catch… really appreciated…

        Peace...

        August 19, 2013 at 3:13 pm |
      • mzh

        Thanks a lot OTOH... I really appreciate it...

        For the faith – I will stick with it no matter... my intention is just to let others know and leave it up to him... no compulsion in religion – 2:256

        I wanna share a story of prophet Muhammad (pbuh)...

        When Meccans elite group could not stop Muhammad (pbuh) to spread the message of Islam and people are accepting regardless of their background either master or slave, men or women... then the elite group plotted a lot to stop it even they attempt to kill him few times... when they found that nothing is working then they decided to offer him whatever he wants... money, wealth, women, position and anything he (pbuh) wants... the the prophet (pbuh) replied if they give hem the moon in one hand and the entire earth worth in right hand he would not stop as it is not from his own... then they gave up and plot something else...

        So I would not stop quoting if i find some related topic but with peace of course... its up to individual whether to accept or reject...

        May be peace upon you and all...

        August 19, 2013 at 10:42 pm |
        • G to the T

          "For the faith – I will stick with it no matter..." – And so any discussions with you are pointless then. Thanks for the heads up.

          August 21, 2013 at 12:15 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      Yesterday as I was walking down the street holding hands with my partner, a passerby commented "must be nice to be in love".
      We've been raising our family together for nigh on a decade.
      We're not married and never will be.

      August 19, 2013 at 3:06 pm |
    • Reality

      mzh is a Muslim so one assumes he is trying to make a case for Islam treatment of women and children.

      What he forgot to mention:

      o Islam gives women almost no rights and treats them like fodder for the male species as so bluntly noted by Aya-an Hi-rsi Ali in her autobiography, In-fidel.

      "Thus begins the extraordinary story of a woman born into a family of desert nomads, circu-mcised as a child, educated by radical imams in Kenya and Saudi Arabia, taught to believe that if she uncovered her hair, terrible tragedies would ensue. It's a story that, with a few different twists, really could have led to a wretched life and a lonely death, as her grandmother warned. But instead, Hi-rsi Ali escaped – and transformed herself into an internationally renowned spokeswoman for the rights of Muslim women."

      ref: Washington Post book review.

      some excerpts:

      "Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly be-aten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their scre-ams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!"

      "The Pakistanis were Muslims but they too had cas-tes. The Untou-chable girls, both Indian and Pakistani were darker skin. The others would not play with them because they were unt-ouchable. We thought that was funny because of course they were tou-chable: we to-uched them see? but also hor-rifying to think of yourself as un-touchable, des-picable to the human race."

      "Between October 2004 and May 2005, eleven Muslim girls were ki-lled by their families in just two regions (there are 20 regions in Holland). After that, people stopped telling me I was exa-ggerating."

      "The kind on thinking I saw in Saudi Arabia and among the Brotherhood of Kenya and Som-alia, is incompatible with human rights and liberal values. It preserves the feu-dal mind-set based on tr-ibal concepts of honor and shame. It rests on self-deception, hypro-cricy, and double standards. It relies on the technologial advances of the West while pretending to ignore their origin in Western thinking. This mind-set makes the transition to modernity very painful for all who practice Islam".

      August 19, 2013 at 3:52 pm |
      • Reality

        Oops, make that "Islam's treatment of women and children".

        August 19, 2013 at 4:32 pm |
      • reality check

        There are no 'busterd' children for Muslims, 'bustered' children are products of feminists where the male of these species provides life support in the form of child support.

        August 19, 2013 at 4:35 pm |
      • mzh

        Please do not spread something that you do not know...

        Islam is the only place where women gets respect... and thats the challenge to mankind not from me but from the quran...

        Peace...

        August 19, 2013 at 4:58 pm |
        • Sara

          Really, mzh, hundreds of cultures, including several women led matriarchies in Yunnan, and Islam is the ONLY one that gives respect to women? Not any of the countries led by women or in which women inherent the family wealth? Nope, just Islam.

          August 19, 2013 at 10:51 pm |
        • Reality

          Only for the eyes of sisters and brothers of Islam includling mzh:

          From the studies of Armstrong, Rushdie, Hirsi Ali, Richardson and Bayhaqi--–

          The Five Steps To Deprogram 1400 Years of Islamic Myths:

          ( –The Steps take less than two minutes to finish- simply amazing, two minutes to bring peace and rationality to over one billion lost souls- Priceless!!!)

          Are you ready?

          Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

          The First Five of the 77 Branches:

          "1. Belief in Allah"

          aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc. should be added to your self-cleansing neurons.

          "2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

          Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gi-b G-nab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "crea-tionist".

          "3. To believe in the existence of angels."

          A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/de-vils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hitt-ites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ug-ly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as f–airies and "tin–ker be-lls". Modern de-vils are classified as the de-mons of the de-mented.

          "4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

          Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

          Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the un-educated masses in line. Today we call them for-tune tellers.

          Prophecies are also invali-dated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

          "5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings
          be upon him) alone."

          Mohammed spent thirty days "fasting" (the Ramadan legend) in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic vi-olence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallu-cinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

          Walk these Five Steps and we guarantee a complete recovery from your Islamic ways!!!!

          Unfortunately, there are not many Muslim commentators/readers on this blog so the "two-minute" cure is not getting to those who need it. If you have a Muslim friend, send him a copy and help save the world.

          Analogous steps are available at your request for deprogramming the myths of Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism and Paganism..

          From Google Translate:

          من الدراسات من أرمسترونغ، رشدي، هيرسي علي، ريتشاردسون والبيهقي --–

          في خمس خطوات لأبطل تأثير 1400 سنة من الأساطير الإسلامية:

          (-خطوات اتخاذ أقل من دقيقتين لإنهاء-ببساطة مدهشة، دقيقتين لإحلال السلام والعقلانية إلى أكثر من مليار فقدت النفوس لا تقدر بثمن!)

          هل أنت مستعد؟

          استخدام "الفروع الإسلامية 77 من" الإيمان "مجموعة الإمام البيهقي المترجمة كنقطة انطلاق. في ذلك، وهو ما يفسر الفضائل الأساسية التي تعكس صحيح" الإيمان "(إيمان) من خلال الآيات القرآنية ذات الصلة، وأحاديث نبوية." أي ملخص لطيفة من المعتقدات القرآن والإسلامية.

          الخمسة الأولى من الفروع 77:

          "1. الإيمان بالله"

          كما يعرف أيضا باسم الله، الرب، زيوس، الرب، الطبيعة الأم، وما إلى ذلك يجب أن تضاف إلى الخلايا العصبية التطهير الذاتي الخاص.

          "2. إلى الاعتقاد بأن كل شيء غيرها مما كان الله غير موجود. بعد ذلك، الله سبحانه وتعالى خلق هذه الأشياء، وبعد ذلك جاءوا إلى حيز الوجود."

          التطور والانفجار الكبير أو "غي ب G-NAB" (عند بدء الكون لإعادة تدوير) هي أكثر ترجيحا وينبغي أن تدرج في "المندرجة" في سبيل الله إذا كنت لا تزال تشكل "بجمعية العقارات، tionist".

          "3. إلى الاعتقاد في وجود الملائكة."

          A بندا رئيسيا لتطهير الخلايا العصبية. الملائكة / دي VILS هي الإبداعات الأسطورية من الحضارات القديمة، على سبيل المثال HITT خائبي، لشرح / تعريف الأحداث الطبيعية، والاتصالات مع آلهتهم، والطيور الكبيرة، والرياح المفاجئة، وحماة خلال الليالي المظلمة، وما إلى ذلك لا "ثينجيس افسح المجال ل جميلة / UG-LY" بزيارة أي وقت مضى أو تحدثت إلى محمد، يسوع، مريم أو يوسف أو جو سميث. اليوم سوف نصنف الملائكة كما F-airies و "القصدير كير تكون LLS". تصنف الحديثة دو VILS مثل دي مونس هيئة اجتثاث mented.

          "4. إلى الاعتقاد بأن جميع الكتب السماوية التي تم إرسالها إلى الأنبياء مختلفة صحيحا. ومع ذلك، وبصرف النظر عن القرآن، كل الكتب الأخرى ليست صالحة بعد الآن."

          ومن البنود الرئيسية في حذفها. لا يوجد كتب في ولاية روح السماء (إذا كان هناك واحد) فقط حيث لم تعد هناك ملائكة لكتابة / نشر / توزيعها. القرآن، OT، NT وما هي ببساطة الكتب التي كتبت من قبل البشر للبشر.

          اخترعت الأنبياء من قبل الكتبة القديمة عادة للحفاظ على الجماهير غير المتعلمة في الخط. اليوم ونحن ندعو لهم فرز الأصوات للتناغم.

          النبوءات كما invali مؤرخة من قبل الطبيعية / الله / الله الهدايا من الإرادة الحرة والمستقبل.

          "5. إلى الاعتقاد بأن جميع الأنبياء صحيحا. ومع ذلك، ونحن مأمورون اتباع النبي محمد (عليه الصلاة والسلام
          صلى الله عليه وسلم) وحده ".

          قضى محمد ثلاثين يوما "الصيام" (أسطورة رمضان) في كهف الساخن قبل أول اتصال له مع الله الملقب الخ الله عبر "ممتزوجات افسح المجال ل جميلة". الحس السليم يتطلب حذف الخلايا العصبية من # 5. # 5 هو أيضا المصدر الرئيسي للالاسلامي VI-olence أي تحول محمد "سريع، يحركها الجوع" hallu-cinations إلى واقع فظيع لغير المؤمنين.

          المشي هذه خمس خطوات، ونحن نضمن الانتعاش الكامل من الطرق الإسلامية الخاصة بك!!

          للأسف، لا توجد العديد من المعلقين مسلم / القراء على هذا بلوق لذلك "مدة دقيقتين" العلاج هو عدم الحصول على لأولئك الذين في حاجة إليها. إذا كان لديك صديق مسلم، ترسل له نسخة وتساعد في إنقاذ العالم.

          تتوفر خطوات مماثلة في طلبك للحصول على deprogramming الأساطير المسيحية واليهودية والبوذية والهندوسية والوثنية

          August 19, 2013 at 11:14 pm |
        • G to the T

          I have a feeling we may differ in our definitions of "respect"...

          August 21, 2013 at 12:17 pm |
      • Reality

        More on the treatment of females in Islam:

        Islam’s widespread practice of amputating the cli-to-ris and sometimes part or even all of the vul-va from the ge-n-ita-lia of Muslim women, affirmed in a had-ith by Mohammed himself, most likely also traces back to the founder’s deliberate abuse of se-x to lure pagan males into his cu-lt. The more the male s-ex drive is purposefully aro-used, the more the female s-ex urge may have to be proportionately suppressed, lest org-iastic he-ll begin to spread.

        Consider then what frequently happens when even a modestly clothed young Western woman walks alone in broad daylight down a street in, for example, a non-Westernized area of a city in Pakistan. Muslim men around her can see her face, hair and neck—maybe even her ankles. Some of them perceive that much exposure as intent on her part to a-rouse them. The fact that she is not accompanied by a male relative confirms their susp-icions. Knowing that she, a Western woman, has not been subjected to that cruel amputation which Islam forces upon millions of Muslim women, some males may even imagine that she must feel s-exual desire for them.

        They tend also to perceive themselves as not responsible to exercise decent social restraint. Rather she is responsible not to tempt them! Whatever lewd thing Muslim men around her say, do or feel as a result is regarded as her fault alone. . . .
        During a major upheaval in Indonesia in the late 1990s, s-ex-crazed Muslim men gang-ra-ped dozens of Chinese women in shops, homes and even in the streets, shouting in Arabic, “Allahu Akbar!” (God is great!)*

        *http://www.colorq.org/humanrights/Indonesia/Jakarta.htm

        August 19, 2013 at 11:10 pm |
    • Sara

      "I think another major problem is most of these kids comes to the world out of good luck of their parents who are mostly not married..."

      mzh, I would very much like to see the evidence you have that most of the kids who leave the church are born to unmarried women.

      August 19, 2013 at 10:13 pm |
      • Sara

        Interestingly, in the united states you are far more likely to find that Muslim converts whose parents are unmarried than atheist converts.

        August 19, 2013 at 10:41 pm |
      • mzh

        It was my assumption by watching the society, TV series and show, media, news channels and some from friends and colleagues...

        August 19, 2013 at 10:48 pm |
        • Reality

          And what have we learned from history books and the daily news?

          Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

          This agenda continues as shown by the ma-ssacre in Mumbai, the as-sas-sinations of Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, the Ft. Hood follower of the koran, the Filipino “koranics”and the Boston Marthon bombers.

          And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

          Current crises:

          The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.

          August 20, 2013 at 7:41 am |
  13. Kenrick Benjamin

    The number line = E, I, -9,-8,-7,-6,-5,-4,-3,-2-1,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9, I, E
    I= Infinity
    E=Eternity
    Eternity and Infinity has no sign as to Positive or Negative.

    August 19, 2013 at 2:01 pm |
    • Honey Badger Don't Care

      Why are you bringing up this garbage?

      August 19, 2013 at 2:02 pm |
    • Grok That Wok

      Kenrick Benjamin = Gross Concept Error

      August 19, 2013 at 2:02 pm |
    • Observer

      Where do talking animals, unicorns and dragons fit in?

      August 19, 2013 at 2:05 pm |
      • hharri

        With everything else god made.
        Assume you have a brain. Did you make it? Your parents? Have you met anyone who can make a brain? From nothing? I thought so

        August 20, 2013 at 8:30 am |
        • AtheistSteve

          Don't worry hharri.Nobody is assuming you have a brain...at least not a properly functioning one.

          August 20, 2013 at 9:02 am |
        • Honey Badger Don't Care

          Actually brains are "made" all the time when an embryo develops into a fetus. They are created from complex chemicals using simple chemichal processes.

          Just because you dont understand science is no reason to be afraid of it.

          August 20, 2013 at 9:57 am |
    • niknak

      Well that just cinches gods existence for me Kenrick.
      I will head to the nearest church and beg forgiveness in how I doubted god for all these years.

      Problem is, which god(s) should I choose to believe in?????

      August 19, 2013 at 2:37 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      Are you seriously trying to make a point by putting eternity ( a concept of linear time, which is false since time is only perceived to be linear to us as the observer) on the same line as infinity, an imaginary number.

      You are comparing apples and imagination. Infinity is a word that can be used in the description of eternity, but no so the other way around. They are wholly different things.

      August 19, 2013 at 2:55 pm |
    • kenrick Benjamin

      Richard Cranium- Infinity cannot be used in place of Eternity because Infinity has a starting point, while Eternity has no starting or ending point. That's a gross misconception Richard.

      August 19, 2013 at 3:33 pm |
      • Richard Cranium

        Incorrect. Infinity by definition has no beginning nor end. In a finite universe, it must loop back in on itself, but otherwise fintie- has beginning or end or both, infinite haviing no beginning or end.

        Where did you come up with infinity having a beginning? Where ever you got that, is wrong, by the very definition of the word.

        August 19, 2013 at 4:40 pm |
        • hharri

          By definition god always was and always will be. The creator

          August 20, 2013 at 8:25 am |
    • skytag

      The symbol for infinity is ∞ and I can assure you that -∞ and +∞ have different meanings in mathematics. And putting "eternity" on a number line is just stupid.

      August 19, 2013 at 6:45 pm |
    • kenrick Benjamin

      Richard Cranium- So what is the definition of Eternity.

      August 20, 2013 at 7:33 am |
      • Richard Cranium

        Eternity is a measurement of time, but is a false concept, because eternity would be time on a linear scale, but since we know time is NOT linear, it is a dimension, it is only linear to an observer ( Theory of Relativity). Placing eternity on a number line is like putting orange on a musical scale. It simply does not belong there.

        Do some of your own research. Asking what eternity and infinity are? They should have covered those in your elementary school.

        August 20, 2013 at 8:10 am |
        • hharri

          Dear chrome dome, lol.

          August 20, 2013 at 8:22 am |
        • hharri

          Dear c d, eternity is a quality if life

          August 20, 2013 at 8:44 am |
        • AtheistSteve

          "eternity is a quality if life."

          Pumkins eat fiscal wheelbarrows.
          See...I can type meaningless sentences too.

          August 20, 2013 at 8:55 am |
        • kenrick Benjamin

          Mr. Cranium my time does not permit for a discussion of this magnitude.

          August 20, 2013 at 9:48 am |
        • captain oblivious

          "timeless existence" morons

          August 20, 2013 at 10:04 am |
        • Richard Cranium

          Kenrick
          There is no discussion to be had.
          Infinity is a term to define something without end, eternity is a concept of linear time, which but time is not linear, so eternity is only an abstract idea of time, not the way time actually is.

          August 20, 2013 at 1:38 pm |
  14. rob

    Atheism is intelligence, religon is insanity

    August 19, 2013 at 1:36 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion."
      - Weinburg

      August 19, 2013 at 1:40 pm |
      • bostontola

        I always liked that one, great critical thinker.

        August 19, 2013 at 1:45 pm |
      • Just the Facts Ma'am...

        History is full of atrocities that would never have been accepted without religion excusing them.

        August 19, 2013 at 1:52 pm |
        • hharri

          Jeeeeeeebus approved of your atrocities? Good luck

          August 20, 2013 at 8:23 am |
      • Lawrence

        If you believe in evil, then you believe in good. If you believe in good and evil, then you believe in a moral law. If you believe in a moral law, then you believe in a Moral Law Giver. Absolute truth by definition is outside of ourselves, in other words, we don't get to say that 2+2=5. It's the same with moral absolutes, we don't get to define good and evil, they have been defined for us. Culture may take a spin on it, but some things are good, and some things are evil no matter what culture you're in, and societies can't define universal morality.

        August 19, 2013 at 2:54 pm |
        • Lawrence

          Furthermore, if God didn't exist, and life is strictly an evolutionary game of who gets the meal and who doesn't, then why do we have morals at all?

          August 19, 2013 at 2:56 pm |
        • ME II

          I don't think "evil" exists as a separate thing.

          August 19, 2013 at 2:58 pm |
        • Lawrence

          ME II: You're right... Evil exists as an absence of righteousness, just as darkness is an absence of light.

          August 19, 2013 at 2:59 pm |
        • Johnny

          We evolved morals so that humans could survive as a species. One human on their own 60,000 years ago didn't stand much of a chance at survival, but many working together did.

          August 19, 2013 at 3:02 pm |
        • Richard Cranium

          Lawrence you said "If you believe in a moral law, then you believe in a Moral Law Giver. Absolute truth by definition is outside of ourselves, in other words, we don't get to say that 2+2=5"

          You started off ok, then jumped the logic train at "you believe in a moral law giver", no I do not. Morals are behaviors learned over millions od years that we inhereted from our animal ancestors. there is no indication that there is a moral law giver. and we DID define 2+2=5, since we did also define 2 and 5 and what plus means. I think you means to say that even if we did not define it, 2=2 would still equal four.

          August 19, 2013 at 3:03 pm |
        • ME II

          @Lawrence,
          "...then why do we have morals at all?"

          One possibility is empathy and reciprocity. Our brains respond to pain in others, often very similarly to our own. We recognize that we don't like pain, therefore pain in ourselves and others is generally bad.
          In addition, cooperation and reciprocity, in the long run may be more successful for the group than non-cooperation.

          August 19, 2013 at 3:03 pm |
        • ME II

          @Lawrence,
          "Evil exists as an absence of righteousness, just as darkness is an absence of light."

          I don't think "good" or "righteousness" exist as separate thing, either.

          August 19, 2013 at 3:05 pm |
        • Lawrence

          ME II: In another country that I will leave unnamed is a place called "Snake Alley." And in this place, people drink a concotion of snake's blood and alcohol, and for money, the deepest cravings of the darkest imaginations are fulfilled. In one instance, a missionary who was ministering in this area had to wrench away and 18 month old from a man who was doing unspeakable acts to her... Are you going to tell me that's not evil???

          August 19, 2013 at 3:14 pm |
        • niknak

          Many animals show moral behavior as well.
          Dolphins and whales cooperate for food and will help raise their young as a group.
          Chimps and bonobos will share food with each other, and in experiments will even share their food with a chimp in another cage who has not been fed. Pretty moralistic behavior as not many humans would do that, especially when it comes to money.

          Larry, I am sorry for you that you can't see thru the façade of your brainwashed upbringing.
          The god as told by whatever religious book you prescribe to does not exist.
          Morals were here long before religions were invented, and will be here long after these current versions as gone.

          Find salvation Larry, be freeing yourself from religion.

          August 19, 2013 at 3:15 pm |
        • Segoy

          Chimps, dolphins...etc also show morals that are considered negative. They torment other species and will murder their own kind. It seems the more intelligent the species, the more likely they may do that which we would define as evil. No religion needed.

          August 19, 2013 at 3:18 pm |
        • Lawrence

          niknak: You said moral behaviors are witnessed in dolphins? You do know that they eat their young, right? I grew up on the coast of NC, and I saw this for myself.

          August 19, 2013 at 3:18 pm |
        • Ganesh

          Lawrence,
          " Are you going to tell me that's not evil???"

          In some countries the people actually kill and eat cows - our sacred animals! Are you going to tell me that's not evil???

          August 19, 2013 at 3:19 pm |
        • ME II

          @Lawrence,
          It is wrong by most human standards, yes, absolutely.

          Is there something in the universe,or outside it, that defines that as "evil"? No, I don't think so. The universe couldn't care less what happens to us humans.

          August 19, 2013 at 3:21 pm |
        • Johnny

          Obviously the person doing the unspeakable act didn't consider it very evil, and that pretty much does away with your universal morality argument because if morality was universal to everyone then this act would have never happened in the first place.

          August 19, 2013 at 3:21 pm |
        • ME II

          @Johnny,
          Not sure I'd agree. People are not that great at doing only what they think is right.

          August 19, 2013 at 3:23 pm |
        • Johnny

          Which to me is just another strike against morals coming from god. If god is all powerful he should be able to give people good enough morals that they won't commit any evil.

          August 19, 2013 at 3:26 pm |
        • Lawrence

          A person's lack of belief in something does not negate its existence. I think the problem with the purely scientific explanation of everything is the incorrect assumption that everything that can be known, can be known through science... The problem is that science does not have the ability to explain that which is outside of natural occurances – the supernatural. Take origins for example, every scientist will tell you that at the time of our origins, where the universe was supposed to exist as a singularity, that is where physical laws do not apply. Others have said "that is where the laws of physics break down." There comes a time when one is forced to admit that science isn't the answer to everything. It constantly changes and adjusts, but it will never be able to go beyond observable reality.
          Where did we come from? How did we get here? What went wrong, why is there so much evil? Where did morals and ethics come from? Why does something exist rather than nothing. I don't even think philosophy can answer some of these questions. There are simply some questions that only the existence of a sovereign Creator can explain.

          August 19, 2013 at 3:28 pm |
        • Johnny

          Although I guess one could argue that god gives some people bad morals on purpose, however, I'm not sure why god would do that.

          August 19, 2013 at 3:29 pm |
        • Just the Facts Ma'am...

          Approximately 5% of the population do not produce a chemical in the brain called oxytocin which has been proven to effect empathy and morality in humans. Religion has nothing to do with morality as it is just riding on the coat tails of chemicals in our brains that allow us to put ourselves in other humans shoes and thus connect and empathize with others.

          http://www.wimp.com/trustmorality/

          August 19, 2013 at 3:32 pm |
        • Lawrence

          Johnny: What we know is that since God did not create evil, He allowed it because He had a purpose for it.
          What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy.
          It goes like this, God's purpose in the wicked is to demonstrate His justice upon wickedness. God's purpose in the elect is to demonstrate His grace and mercy.

          August 19, 2013 at 3:33 pm |
        • Observer

          Lawrence,

          Of course God created evil. He created everything, remember?

          August 19, 2013 at 3:35 pm |
        • Johnny

          Please feel free to post a verse from the bible that will contradict this verse. While doing so please remember to argue that the bible has no contradictions.

          I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)

          August 19, 2013 at 3:38 pm |
        • Lawrence

          Johnny: You're close. It's not that God chooses to give bad morals to some people, the fact is, we are all born with "bad morals." Think about it, have you ever had to teach a child to lie? What happens is that we are all wicked people (myself at the top of the list), and God chooses certain people that He will redeem from that wickedness, leaving the others to the unintended consequences of their wickedness. God then demonstrates His justice in the wicked, and His grace and mercy on the redeemed.

          August 19, 2013 at 3:38 pm |
        • niknak

          Larry,
          You make the classic mistake every believer makes.
          The whole "well, since we can't explain it, that means god exists and he (or her) did it."
          Just because we don't know how life started on this planet, does not mean "god did it."
          You believers used to use solar eclipses and earth quakes etc as your "since you can't explain that, it must be god" evidence.
          But science did explain those, and many other natural stuff and god(s) had nothing to do with them.

          So where are you believers now Larry?
          That's right, all the way back to the big bang as your "Well, what came before that? God!"
          Science will figure that out too, and yet another line in the sand you believers draw will be washed away.

          You know Larry, when a child has an imaginary friend it is cute. But when an adult has one, it is creepy.

          August 19, 2013 at 3:39 pm |
        • Just the Facts Ma'am...

          "God's purpose in the wicked is to demonstrate His justice upon wickedness."

          Wow. So God needs the wicked so he can demonstrate his mighty justice because if no one was doing anything wrong he wouldn't look as cool to us? You sir, are insane.

          August 19, 2013 at 3:41 pm |
        • Lawrence

          Johnny: The KJV isn't the best translation out there... You need to do some reading on "Lower Criticism." But the short answer is that the word "evil" in that passage, the Hebrew is "calamity." God certainly creates calamity, but that's not the same thing as evil.
          James 1:13-15 – Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust is conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

          August 19, 2013 at 3:42 pm |
        • Madtown

          Lawrence
          Johnny: What we know is that since God did not...
          ------
          Pure arrogance. "What we KNOW....". You are free to BELIEVE whatever you choose. You're arrogant to say actually KNOW the answers to any of these questions, and that a man-made religion gives you any answers. No one knows the truth of any of this for certain.

          August 19, 2013 at 3:45 pm |
        • ME II

          @Lawrence,
          "A person's lack of belief in something does not negate its existence."

          I agree, but neither does a belief in something confirm its existence.

          "There are simply some questions that only the existence of a sovereign Creator can explain."

          This may be a form of argument from ignorance. Just because we don't know the answer, does not mean that God did it.

          August 19, 2013 at 3:46 pm |
        • OTOH

          Lawrence,
          " He Himself does not tempt anyone..."

          Really? According to your stories "He" hardens people's hearts and sends them strong delusions...

          August 19, 2013 at 3:47 pm |
        • Madtown

          Lawrence
          The KJV isn't the best translation out there
          -----
          Isn't God's word perfect? Why are there translations in the first place? How dare fallible human beings mess around with God's perfection?

          August 19, 2013 at 3:48 pm |
        • Lawrence

          Madtown: Call it arrogance if you wish, I can't control your opinions of me, neither is it any of my concern. Science says it "knows" things all the time, but that knowledge is constantly changing. For instance, just recently there were several dinosaur species that they "knew" existed that they had to remove from the list, because they just discovered that they were merely juveniles of an existing species. My point is simply that it's hard to put rock solid faith in any "scientific fact" that could change tomorrow. True Christianity has maintained since the first Apostles, and their faith grew out of what they saw with their own eyes.

          August 19, 2013 at 3:53 pm |
        • Lawrence

          OTOH:
          Does God MAKE people evil?

          Exodus 4:21 – The LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

          So what do we do with passages like this that seem to put God in the place of making people evil? It seems to be in contradiction to what we learn about the nature of God.

          First, what can we know about the nature of God?
          James 1:13-15 – Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
          Mark 7:21-23 – For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”

          God does not tempt man with evil – humans are born into a sinful nature that desires to satisfy its God-given good desires in evil ways

          All creation agonizes under the cruel effect of sin’s curse, waiting for the consummation of all things, when the curse will finally be removed. (Romans 8:22)
          Romans 1:18-32 – “…And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind…”

          There comes a point in time in God’s dealing with men and nations when He abandons them so that they may reap the unintended consequences that their own sinfulness produces. This is done in order to bring about not only chastisement for their sin, but ultimately their repentance (See Ezekiel 16)
          Judges 16:18-20 – The LORD departed from Sampson due to his sin
          Judges 10:13-14 – God refused to deliver Israel any longer due to their idolatry
          Hosea 4:17 – Ephraim is joined to idols; Let him alone.
          Matthew 15:14 – Jesus is speaking of the Pharisees: "Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind and if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
          Acts 14:16 – In the generations gone by He permitted all the nations to go
          their own ways…

          Therefore, since we know that God cannot tempt man with evil, then we know that God does not make men evil. But, in the sovereignty of God who works all things according to the council of His own will (Ephesians 1:11), that no purpose of His will be thwarted (Job 42:2), He will remove His presence from some men, so that the wrath of God’s justice may be revealed in them (Romans 9:22-24). When a man’s heart is hardened, he has only himself to blame. In 1 Timothy 4:1-3, Paul tells us that there are men whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron, their sensitivity to sin has been lost due to a lifetime of dedication to it…

          Do not think that God wrought evil in the heart of Pharaoh; God simply commands man’s evil will to do what comes naturally to it. When God “hardens Pharaoh’s heart,” it may be because God has removed His presence from him that he may not repent (Romans 9:17) and that he would reap the unintended consequences of his actions.

          2 Samuel 16:10 – But the king said, “What have I to do with you, O sons of Zeruiah? If he curses, and if the LORD has told him, ‘Curse David,’ then who shall say, ‘Why have you done so?’”

          Although God Himself would not curse, the good God, by means of an evil, blaspheming instrument commands these evil words.
          Isaiah 45:6-7 – That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun that there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other, the One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

          As for Pharaoh, God could have used the devil to do the hardening. As in the case of Saul, an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him. Yes, God caused the evil, though He did not do it directly, but commanded that it be done. Understand though, that it is not as though God forces men to be evil, rather, men do evil spontaneously and with a desirous willingness.

          August 19, 2013 at 3:56 pm |
        • Just the Facts Ma'am...

          "True Christianity has maintained since the first Apostles, and their faith grew out of what they saw with their own eyes." lol

          The bible has been getting it wrong for thousands of years. It was wrong on Adam, it was wrong on a global flood, it was wrong on early mans life span, it was wrong on the sun standing still, just wrong wrong wrong. How are we supposed to trust anything that it says? And "True Christianity"? Please do tell which of the 42,000 denominations is the "True" one. I would love to know, though it would take actual evidence and not just some opinion drivel from a Christian cheerleader named Larry. And before you say "Well you should read the bible" that is exactly what I did several times and it is what convinced me of its errors.

          August 19, 2013 at 4:01 pm |
        • Lawrence

          Madtown: Yep, God's word is perfect in the original autographs. And any English translation "difficulties" are easily remedied when you read passages in context, and stop trying to proof-text.

          August 19, 2013 at 4:02 pm |
        • niknak

          Sorry Larry, but quoting your book of magic spells is not proof to us.
          Just as it is not proof to you if someone from the Middle East quoted stuff to you from his book of magic spells.

          Can you understand that concept?

          August 19, 2013 at 4:03 pm |
        • Lawrence

          Just the facts: Well, I am sorry that you feel that way. I know there have been many splits in the church over the years, and much of them over minor issues. There are also many apostates in the world like Roman Catholicism, Mormonism, and so on, and I'm sure that you've run into many, many hypocrites. But you don't stop using money because counterfeits exist.
          Furthermore, I don't buy your premise that the Bible "got it wrong" on all of those issues. That statement is based on the assumption that things exist now as they always have been – that's just not the case. Anyway, you cannot make an absolute statement like that.

          August 19, 2013 at 4:08 pm |
        • Lawrence

          niknak: well, I was asked about a religious topic "where evil came from" and I cannot hardly explain that in a secular way. Evil cam into existence when one willingly chose to disobey God. Ergo, God did not create evil, but He allowed it because He had a purpose for it.

          August 19, 2013 at 4:10 pm |
        • Lawrence

          And for what its worth to anyone who cares... I'm not Larry... That reminds me of that sleevless guy on TV.

          August 19, 2013 at 4:14 pm |
        • ME II

          @Lawrence,
          "But you don't stop using money because counterfeits exist."

          Bad analogy. Someone, i.e. the treasury dept. determines what is real v. fake

          "That statement is based on the assumption that things exist now as they always have been – that's just not the case"

          There are many reasons to think that things have not changed significantly. The thought that things have changed is unfounded, I think.

          August 19, 2013 at 4:15 pm |
        • Madtown

          Lawrence
          Madtown: Yep, God's word is perfect in the original autographs
          ---–
          Sure thing. Meanwhile, there are many of your human brethren who don't know the first thing about the bible, they don't know what it is. If it's truly the "word of God", why is he choosing not to share it with all his equal creations? If God really desired to lay out some wording for all of us to follow, he'd write it on the moon for all to see, and in a language all would understand. What you have is the "word of man – concerning a sub-set of his opinions about God."

          August 19, 2013 at 4:16 pm |
        • Just the Facts Ma'am...

          Our DNA shows we did not descend from a single pair of humans. Our DNA shows humans interbred with neanderthals about 20,000 – 30,000 years ago. The remains of h omo sapians from that time show the average ages of the remains are close to those of other primates at the time and no where near the 700 – 900 year life spans for early humans as the bible claims. The geological evidence dating back over 150,000 years shows there has been no global flood. What we now know about inertia and our solar orbit along with physics proves the earth never stood still for a whole day just so a small tribe in the middle east could wipe out their enemies.

          I think that is all I need to know to say equivocally that the bible is wrong wrong wrong. And on top of that it has the rest of the Hebrew scriptures telling us of a violent and jealous God who would strike down any who oppose him which then apparently flips as soon as he spends some time on earth and is now preaching s "turn the other cheek" message. It's riddled with errors and inconsistencies and is left up to millions of people picking and choosing which parts they like or don't all leading to 42,000 different factions who all say they are the right one. It's insanity.

          August 19, 2013 at 4:18 pm |
        • niknak

          There is no such thing or law called "evil."
          That is some religious concept that means something different to everyone.

          Why are you xtians so enamored with that word?

          Same for the word sin.
          There are no laws called sin.

          Again, it is a concept you believers seem to find great interest in. Especially when talking to us non believers.

          As Yoda said, "The brain washing is strong in this one."

          August 19, 2013 at 4:18 pm |
        • Lawrence

          Well, I'm about to leave to go home. Y'all talk amongst yourselves now... I'll give you a topic: Rhode Island. It's neither a Road, nor an Island. Have fun. Cheers!

          August 19, 2013 at 4:20 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          Isaiah 45:7

          "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

          August 19, 2013 at 4:21 pm |
        • Just the Facts Ma'am...

          Did Larry just change the subject and run away?

          August 19, 2013 at 4:27 pm |
        • Lawrence

          Just the facts: One last thing before I go... Facts? OK, At the Int'l Congress of Zoology (1958) Dr. A.J.E. Cave said his examination showed that the famous Neanderthal Man skeleton found in France over 50 years prior was that of an old man who suffered from arthritis.

          August 19, 2013 at 4:29 pm |
        • ME II

          @Lawrence,
          Cheap shot and pathetic.

          There was once a scientist who was wrong? Really? No?

          August 19, 2013 at 4:33 pm |
        • Just the Facts Ma'am...

          It's great to see you have kept so current on your science there Larry. 1958 is just so recent. You do know that many remains have been found and the entire neanderthal DNA sequence has been decoded. This is not some case of "mythtaken" identlty. Please do some research on any site other than the anti-science christian sites that exclude any evidence they do not have an answer for.

          August 19, 2013 at 4:34 pm |
        • OTOH

          Lawrence,

          Thank you for your reply. Your contorted apologetics have the distinct aura of reaching and twisting as far as you can to rationalize the irrational. You have not even a single verified fact in your hemi-semi-demi-treatise there. I'm convinced that you are convinced... and that is all.

          August 19, 2013 at 4:34 pm |
        • skytag

          "If you believe in evil, then you believe in good.

          Whether I believe in these depends on how you define them. They are relative concepts, good referring to behavior deemed beneficial to society and bad referring to behavior that's detrimental to society. What one culture considers good another might view as evil. Behaviors considered good in the past may be considered evil today.

          "If you believe in good and evil, then you believe in a moral law."

          "Moral law" is just the collection of behaviors we've labeled good and bad.

          "If you believe in a moral law, then you believe in a Moral Law Giver."

          That would be the society in which you live.

          "Absolute truth by definition is outside of ourselves"

          There is no absolute morality. Truth is truth, it isn't relative or absolute. I don't even know what you mean when you say "outside ourselves." I live in Florida. That is truth. It's not outside or inside anyone, it just is. Stop trying to make truth sound like something mystical.

          "It's the same with moral absolutes, we don't get to define good and evil, they have been defined for us."

          Get a clue. Of course we define them. Today we consider slavery evil. Two hundred years ago we did not. What is considered evil varies from culture to culture and age to age. What you're attempting to do here is give your moral views greater status by suggesting they are absolutes.

          "Culture may take a spin on it, but some things are good, and some things are evil no matter what culture you're in"

          There aren't many things all cultures have considered evil if you consider the whole of human history, but all you're really saying here is that there are some behaviors that have been consistently deemed bad. That doesn't make them absolutes, just values all cultures have agreed are good or bad.

          "and societies can't define universal morality."

          Because no such thing exists.

          August 19, 2013 at 7:15 pm |
        • skytag

          @Lawrence: "One last thing before I go... Facts? OK, At the Int'l Congress of Zoology (1958) Dr. A.J.E. Cave said his examination showed that the famous Neanderthal Man skeleton found in France over 50 years prior was that of an old man who suffered from arthritis."

          So what? In 2012 a bunch of Christians gave up their jobs, left their lives behind and drove around in motorhomes to warn people Christ would return on May 21, 2012.

          August 19, 2013 at 7:23 pm |
        • skytag

          @Lawrence: "Furthermore, if God didn't exist, and life is strictly an evolutionary game of who gets the meal and who doesn't, then why do we have morals at all?"

          To promote the best interests of societies and the people in them over individual self-interest.

          August 19, 2013 at 7:25 pm |
  15. Bootyfunk

    they're leaving the church because with all the available information/knowledge in the world today, it's becoming more and more obvious that religion is a sham, the bible is a fairy tale and science, not religion, holds more answers to life and the universe around us.

    August 19, 2013 at 1:33 pm |
    • Dyslexic doG

      amen!

      August 19, 2013 at 1:35 pm |
    • OTOH

      I agree. Realism is a much more difficult path than the fantasies, though; but it seems as if more people are willing to deal with it.

      August 19, 2013 at 1:43 pm |
      • Bootyfunk

        funny, i found initially becoming an atheist difficult - getting past the fear of burning in hell for all eternity.
        but once an atheist, i found life much easier and stress free. no more big brother, obey obey obey.
        thinking for yourself is extraordinarily rewarding.
        try to be a good person and help your brothers and sisters when you can - don't need a god for that.

        August 19, 2013 at 1:52 pm |
      • lamelionheart

        Relativistic realisms are as percussively transient realities with the fanfares of recognizable renditions that the destitute minds dare adhere towards...

        August 19, 2013 at 4:22 pm |
        • evolved DNA

          LL sounds like new age clap trap to me..

          August 19, 2013 at 7:39 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Why do we sleep?

      How many planets are in the Solar system?

      Why is ice slippery?

      How does a bicycle stay up?

      Don't be so sure you actually know the answers to these

      August 19, 2013 at 1:52 pm |
      • Honey Badger Don't Care

        So that the brain can rest and reorganize memories.

        Reduced friction. (duh)

        Centrifugal force.

        Why dont you try saying "the tide comes in the tide goes out, we cant explain that"?

        August 19, 2013 at 2:01 pm |
      • Grok That Wok

        I'm not so sure that you aren't headed towards presenting an argument from ignorance.

        August 19, 2013 at 2:01 pm |
      • Doobs

        Why does Bill Deacon ask irrelevant questions?

        Why does Bill Deacon highjack discussions?

        Why doesn't Bill Deacon answer questions posed to him?

        Why does Bill Deacon think that the RCC's conspiracy to hide the pedophiles who harmed thousands of children a "judgement call"?

        Why does Bill Deacon lie about what other posters say?

        August 19, 2013 at 2:07 pm |
      • Just the Facts Ma'am...

        Why do we sleep? Brain plasticity, though this is still up for debate.

        How many planets are in the Solar system? 8 planets and 5 dwarf planets.

        Why is ice slippery? The thin layer of water on the edge of all ice. The "why does it have water on its edge" is still up for debate.

        How does a bicycle stay up? It is a combination of several effects that depend on the geometry, mass distribution, and forward speed of the bike.

        What is your point Bill?

        August 19, 2013 at 2:13 pm |
      • Bill Deacon

        Honey commits the common errors most "logical" people do. Those are not the scientific answers at all. You can google them if you like. The point being, you may be a person who blindly accepts what you think is logical scientific knowledge, when really all you've done is accept something you think is correct because it seems appealing.

        August 19, 2013 at 2:15 pm |
        • Doobs

          The point being, you may be a person who blindly accepts what you think is logical scientific knowledge, when really all you've done is accept something you think is correct because it seems appealing.

          This comes from someone who practices ritual cannibalism as a means to curry favor with a vengeful father figure, his zombie son who is also himself, and their pet bird, who is also both of them.

          Tell us again how the pedophiles in the RCC were just posing as priests so they could have access to children, and how the RCC's conspiracy of silence was a "judgement call".

          August 19, 2013 at 2:30 pm |
      • Doc Vestibule

        The All Purpose Answer:
        Becuase God is magical.

        August 19, 2013 at 2:23 pm |
      • ME II

        Angels?!?!

        August 19, 2013 at 2:34 pm |
      • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

        Is there a god?

        Do you worship the correct god?

        What does god want and why?

        Is your concept of god moral?

        Bill, Don't be so sure you actually know the answers to these.

        At least the questions you posed are testable and if some has an aswer it can be confirmed objectively to the best of our capabilities.

        On the other nand you claim knowledge that you can't demonstrate what so ever...now THAT is dishonest.

        August 19, 2013 at 2:51 pm |
        • niknak

          Cheesyguy, you and I both know the believers have absolutely nothing to stand on in terms of facts.
          They know it too, which is why they answer in the fashion Deacon Blues does.
          He is at least civil about it.
          But if given the chance, would stone us to death with just the same vigor as the others.

          August 19, 2013 at 3:21 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          I agree, I just can't understand the point Bill makes with these types of posts. He seems to be saying 'we cannot be sure of anything, even things that can be objectively and empirically tested'....and in the same breath claims certianty of things that no one could possbly be certian of. Unless I am missing something his argument is oxymoronic.

          August 19, 2013 at 3:30 pm |
        • niknak

          He, like all believers has to find some kind of way to justify his untenable position, which is getting more absurd the more we figure out about the natural world.
          He claims we know nothing about the things science discovers, yet when he or a family member is sick, they go to the doctor to avail themselves on the medicine and other treatments that he says we know nothing about.

          As Frank told Tony in Scarface, "Never underestimate the hypocrisy of the other believer."

          August 19, 2013 at 3:46 pm |
      • Richard Cranium

        I know the answers to all of those questions, I fail to see the point.

        August 19, 2013 at 3:35 pm |
      • Alias

        Bill, if you are going to ask questions, at least ask some worth thinking about:

        Is a frog waterproof?
        What was Captian Hook's name before he lost his hand?
        What would happen if a jedi hit superman with his light saber?

        August 19, 2013 at 4:09 pm |
        • ME II

          Which is better Coke or Pepsi?

          August 19, 2013 at 4:25 pm |
        • Athy

          Neither. Good beer always wins.

          August 19, 2013 at 5:49 pm |
        • Just the Facts Ma'am...

          Is a frog waterproof? No, but some are hydrophobic

          What was Captain Hook's name before he lost his hand? Captain of course.

          What would happen if a jedi hit superman with his light saber? Unless it was a green light saber with a kryptonite crystal core, nothing...

          August 19, 2013 at 8:48 pm |
  16. lotharson

    Biblical inerrancy is the reason of the ongoing exodus out of the Church. Evangelicals need to let go of that harmful dogma.

    Lovely greetings from Germany
    Liebe Grüße aus Deutschland

    Lothars Sohn – Lothar's son
    http://lotharlorraine.wordpress.com

    August 19, 2013 at 1:24 pm |
    • Blogspam alert

      Spam.

      August 19, 2013 at 1:29 pm |
      • lotharson

        ???????

        August 19, 2013 at 10:36 pm |
  17. bostontola

    “It may seem bizarre, but in my opinion science offers a surer path to God than religion.” Paul Davies

    I find it surprising that religious people quote Dr. Davies. Bad news believers, this is the ultimate indictment of your religion. Your religion is in direct conflict with science. If science is right, your religion is wrong. Dr. Davies is saying all religions are wrong, if there is a god, yours isn't it, science merely describes the Observable universe. As science explains more and more, there is less and less room for all the existing religious supersti.tions.

    Keep in mind, I am asserting your religion is wrong, I'm not commenting on the existence of god.

    August 19, 2013 at 1:03 pm |
    • lamelionheart

      Sired Boston...

      Science is purely theoretical within its spawning of inward quantum dynamics and outward celestial conditionings. Who within the scientific mainframes can divest an analogy showing the differential natures of the atomic and the celestial realms in conclusively non-comparative relationships..? Who can say with assuredness that the insides of the atomized domains are dissimilarly unequal toward the outside natures of celestially spatial relativities..?

      August 19, 2013 at 1:35 pm |
      • bostontola

        lionly,
        Science is quite assured based on experiments with extraordinary accuracy. Even with that, there is not certainty. It is assured enough to have an unparalleled track record in medical, information, weather, and other technologies that rest on science. They work amazingly well and open up mankind's collective mind to new ideas all the time. Religion is the opposite, anchored in old ideas leading nowhere.

        August 19, 2013 at 1:50 pm |
        • lamelionheart

          Sired Boston...

          The pharmaceutical organizations seem to be at odds with the potential usage of medical marijuana as Dr. Gupta has lain open... The Hubble space telescope has found there to be galaxies within what astronomers thought would only be darkness... The LHC can only see the innerness of an atom's visibility thru colliding points intersecting but cannot see the very small parts that will never be viewed due their smallness which our scientific instruments cannot detect... I see atoms colliding via the LHC as being similar to celestial objects colliding such as two planets or two moons which has not been seen by any astronomical observances...

          Sired Boston, Science is but a stone's throw away from its technological first fruits of knowledge... I acknowledge that technical advancements are worthy of being exemplified yet the villainous nature of any technology dare I say usurps the moralizing relativity of civil mindedness... I cite the usages of chemical fertilizers and the harm it does... I cite the drilling for fossil fuels and the mistakes that occur... I cite the nuclear power plants that have laid radioactivity into the environment... Do you Boston need more citations..?

          August 19, 2013 at 2:28 pm |
  18. CommonSensed

    We don't need religious mumbo jumbo to understand how to be and act on being good humans.

    August 19, 2013 at 1:00 pm |
    • lamelionheart

      Sired C. Sensed...

      Humanisms run full circle around the social abyss... The degree of one's psychological waning is dependently based upon one's sociological raising... A person's hopes for a fruitful living arrangement is dependently based on their biased beliefs... Normality is a subjective resonance and is sometimes viewed by others as being a negativity... There then is no need for a God or even a spiritual resonance for being a normalized wayfarer... Life is a continuation upon its livable sheltering passiveness...

      August 19, 2013 at 1:19 pm |
      • CommonSensed

        Your word scramble algorithm seems spot on today.

        August 19, 2013 at 1:43 pm |
  19. Extra Medium

    Hoping the milenials leaving NOT just the churches, but the synagogues, mosques and temples as well. Religion is dope for the ignorant.

    August 19, 2013 at 12:46 pm |
    • Segoy

      It's fun to see people try and sneak themselves up to a surperior position by calling others (they don't even know) ignorant.

      August 19, 2013 at 12:56 pm |
      • Just the Facts Ma'am...

        "by calling others (they don't even know) ignorant." He was not calling any specific people ignorant, he was just saying that religion is perfect for those that are...

        August 19, 2013 at 1:03 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      segoy
      ignorant is not an insult. ALL are ignorant of one thing or another. I do not know how to perform brain surgery siince I am ignorant of many things that would be required.

      If you do not know, you are ignorant. Religion is spawned by ignorance. You do not know so instead you believe by way of "faith". And what is "faith"? Belief without evidence or a belief born from ignorance.

      August 19, 2013 at 1:01 pm |
      • Segoy

        You are correct, you are ignorant. Science is also spawned from ignorance.
        Both seek meaning in different ways.

        August 19, 2013 at 3:14 pm |
      • Richard Cranium

        segoy
        it is true that science is spwned from ignorance, but seeks to decrease ignorance by gathering evidence and facts.
        Science does not make up stuff and say it is true. And you are likely far more ignorant than I

        August 19, 2013 at 3:51 pm |
        • Segoy

          You may guess all you want on who is more ignorant. Those games are futile. I can say that in wisdom I said only that you were ignorant, which is true, and did not fall to your level of guessing.

          August 19, 2013 at 5:49 pm |
    • Responding to the Pride

      Atheism is dope for the arrogant.

      August 19, 2013 at 1:22 pm |
      • bostontola

        Being arrogant doesn't make you wrong. Believing in millennia old texts as facts that are in conflict with tested results is wrong.

        August 19, 2013 at 1:25 pm |
        • Responding to the Pride

          Agreed that arrogance does not mean your are wrong, it just means you are arrogant. Ask yourself this, if someone were to define you right now, would you want be known as arrogant or incorrect? Neither answer is great, but one tells us something about your character, while the other reflects merely on a belief system.

          August 19, 2013 at 2:32 pm |
        • bostontola

          You don't have to choose between arrogance and being right. Lots of atheists are right and humble.

          August 19, 2013 at 5:33 pm |
      • Dyslexic doG

        @Responding: that's a clever reply! did you think that up all by yourself?

        August 19, 2013 at 1:34 pm |
        • Responding to the Pride

          No...I did some research and then consulted others.

          August 19, 2013 at 2:29 pm |
      • Bootyfunk

        christians sure hate facts and logic...

        August 19, 2013 at 1:41 pm |
        • Responding to the Pride

          All Christians?

          August 19, 2013 at 2:30 pm |
        • Segoy

          Don't confuse funk, he likes his absolutist views.

          August 19, 2013 at 3:15 pm |
        • skytag

          I wouldn't say they hate those things, they just don't place any value on them when it comes to matters related to God. They've been taught that God is beyond facts and logic as we know them, so any fact or logic you use can be summarily dismissed when necessary.

          August 19, 2013 at 8:04 pm |
        • Segoy

          Not sure I agree. I've known many religious people that are quite open to new discoveries and the latest in the sciences.

          August 19, 2013 at 8:58 pm |
        • Sara

          I think in most areas they like facts and logic about as much as anyone else. But as with most fixations, when their more cherished positions are challenged, they tend not to value evidence or to put excess value in what would normally be seen as jubk evidence.

          August 19, 2013 at 9:38 pm |
      • truthprevails1

        Arrogance is thinking you have all the answers based on the stories told in one book.

        August 19, 2013 at 1:44 pm |
        • Responding to the Pride

          I agree–that would be arrogant. Sure glad I don't think I have all the answers from one book.

          August 19, 2013 at 2:29 pm |
        • truthprevails1

          Atheism leads to more questions, not arrogance which is what you have claimed. Most christians believe the bible provides the answers to our very beginnings; using it at times to explain what caused the big bang.

          August 19, 2013 at 2:58 pm |
        • Responding to the Pride

          Truth–put my statement into context. I was responding to Extra's originating post above by employing sarcasm. I no more think all atheists are arrogant that you think all believers are ignorant (or perhaps you do believe that, which would make you arrogant).

          August 19, 2013 at 4:26 pm |
        • truthprevails1

          My misunderstanding...sorry.

          August 19, 2013 at 5:53 pm |
      • Just the Facts Ma'am...

        Is it really arrogant for a human to say "Here is all the scientific study and research which shows to the best of our ability that evolution is factual."

        To study something anf test it over and over and then to draw a conclusion from that research to me seems far less arrogant than to just read some ancient writings and believe that it speaks of them and to them connecting them to some universal creator that they claim to now have a personal relationship with and can commune with telepathically. That to me is the definition of arrogance.

        August 19, 2013 at 1:47 pm |
        • Responding to the Pride

          You say: "Is it really arrogant for a human to say "Here is all the scientific study and research which shows to the best of our ability that evolution is factual." I don't think that is arrogant. I think saying that religion is dope for the ignorant is arrogant–or do you disagree?

          August 19, 2013 at 2:33 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          "I think saying that religion is dope for the ignorant is arrogant–or do you disagree?"

          I would just change "ignorant" to "willfully ignorant"

          August 19, 2013 at 3:05 pm |
        • Just the Facts Ma'am...

          How is this for pride.

          I don't know how we all got here. I don't know what started it all or if there is a purpose for the universe or mankind. I am willing to wait for evidence before coming to a conclusion. I do not accept any other humans opinion or the opinion of any ancient humans as evidence.

          Okay, now you Responding to the Pride. Let's compare and see who sounds more prideful.

          August 19, 2013 at 4:23 pm |
        • Responding to the Pride

          Your last statement is a statement of humility. I will tell you that I while you are still looking for answers, I think I have found them. I'm willing to share those answers with anyone who asks, but I'm not willing to shove it in anyone's face. For instance, I would never say something like, I don't know, atheists are ignorant because they haven't found the answers (I direct your attention to the start of this thread). What started this thread was the arrogance of one individual, which I, admittedly, responded with sarcasm. You shouldn't read anything more into it.

          August 19, 2013 at 4:36 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          "I will tell you that I while you are still looking for answers, I think I have found them."

          I would be interested in what answers you think you have found and more importantly why you believe these answers to be valid? Yes I am serious.

          August 19, 2013 at 5:01 pm |
        • Responding to the Pride

          I don't wish to avoid the discussion...really bad timing though. I will respond either late today or early tomorrow. Please check back later so we can pick this up. If you have pressing questions, feel free to share them with me–perhaps that might expedite a response.

          August 19, 2013 at 5:13 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          I don't have any questions because I know nothing about the answers you say you have, I will check back later.

          August 19, 2013 at 5:35 pm |
        • skytag

          @Responding to the Pride: "I think saying that religion is dope for the ignorant is arrogant–or do you disagree?"

          I wouldn't call it arrogant, but I wouldn't agree with it either. All religions are nothing more than comforting narratives people choose to believe because they like the one they embrace better than the alternatives. There's no evidence to support any of them, and if you choose to embrace one, as most people do, it's almost certain you'll embrace one based on factors such as your upbringing, the people you've known, and the dominant religion in your culture.

          As a former Christian Christianity is the religion with which I am most familiar. It is a comforting narrative that allows people to avoid dealing with some of the harsher realities of life, such as the finality of death, the fact that no one goes to a better place — or any place — after he dies, you won't see your loved ones again, life isn't fair and injustices here will not be made right in an afterlife, and so on. You don't have an all powerful, all knowing invisible friend protecting your or your loved ones, or affecting the course of events in your favor.

          But lots of people prefer to believe a comforting bit of fiction to a harsh truth, and with so much encouragement to believe one of the hundreds of these religious narratives lots of people do accept them on faith, without any evidence at all.

          In some ways Marx was right, religion is opium for the masses. Religion makes it easier to accept injustice, to resist the urge to retaliate for perceived wrongs, and so on. This is one reason religion is more important to the poor and oppressed. It tells them the day will come when the injustices of this life will be righted, that the rich and powerful will "get theirs in the end."

          Of course, the rich and powerful like this because it makes the poor and oppressed more tolerant of their stations in life and less likely to revolt. It is there opium.

          August 19, 2013 at 7:52 pm |
        • skytag

          @Responding to the Pride: "Your last statement is a statement of humility. I will tell you that I while you are still looking for answers, I think I have found them."

          You have found answers someone made up, but for which there is no supporting evidence. There two obvious problems with this:

          First, believers have quite a history of making up answers that are later debunked by science as we better understand the world around us. Once upon a time people just like you had the "answer" for what causes epileptic seizures: demonic possessions. Having some answers that make you feel good is not evidence they are correct answers.

          Second, billions of people in the past and present believe or believed exactly what you believe, that they had found the answers, except they found different answers than you've found. If you want to talk about arrogant, my idea of arrogant is being certain what you believe is right and what others believe is wrong, even though you cannot produce a shred of evidence to support what you believe.

          August 19, 2013 at 8:00 pm |
        • Responding to the Pride

          Blessed: Let me start by saying, I don't feel the need to prove anything. My own study and reflection has satisfied the questions I had about God, Jesus, the Bible, the purpose of life, etc, and thus I've answered my own questions. I doubt that I can prove anything to most of the atheists on this blog (you all, like many of the believers, including me, are pretty set in our ways.). I don't want this to be viewed as a cop-out–and there will be those who will argue, childishly, that I don't have proof, therefore I'm ignorant or whatever, but that's o.k., because I told you I found answers (not proof–at least not in the modern, let me show you a photograph sense) and you asked about the answers I have, so that is what I'll focus on.

          Does God exist? Yes. This, to me, is the fundamental question–without it, all of the other questions are moot. I'm satisfied that He exists because it answers questions science does not (at least not yet). Many believe that science will answer those questions (what caused the big bang, for instance). Perhaps it will–we all have faith in something I suppose. Perhaps I will be proven wrong–I can live with that.

          I often asked, like many on here, why doesn't he overtly reveal himself now (like he supposedly did in ancient times). I'm satisfied that He wants us to come to him by faith–an overt showing will crush the need for faith (that seems obvious). I'm satisfied that the reason he wants us to come to him by faith is that He wants to know we will trust him implicitly–unlike others who did have the luxury of an overt presence, but decided to walk away from him altogether–the Old Testament is filled with examples of that. So yes, I think our lives are a testing period.

          More to follow, unless you want to stick to this subject–your call.

          August 20, 2013 at 2:03 am |
        • Responding to the Pride

          Sky...you make a lot of as.sumptions–not the least of which is purporting to know what I believe.

          You do make an interesting point, but one that is often addressed here. You state: "This is one reason religion is more important to the poor and oppressed. It tells them the day will come when the injustices of this life will be righted, that the rich and powerful will "get theirs in the end." Of course, the rich and powerful like this because it makes the poor and oppressed more tolerant of their stations in life and less likely to revolt. It is there opium."

          What about the more likely scenario, at least in this country–believers who are not poor or oppressed, nor rich and powerful. A middle class of believers, if you'll allow me to coin that term. How do you explain their reason (my reason) for faith.

          August 20, 2013 at 2:10 am |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          Pride,

          I appreciate your honest response. I had rightly assumed you were most likely CHristian, no problem there, and of course it would be no surprise to you I disagree with your conclusions. I spent many years in CHristianity so I am plenty familiar with the type of response you were kind enough to share.

          Like I said it is not so much the "what do you believe in" question I am interested in but the "why". You can correct me if I am wrong but it sounds like you had 2 basic reasons. The first one is "personal" reasons... while there is no way to argue against your personal experiences because of their nature, they also suffer from that same issue when it comes to convincing others of your belief. I am fairly sure you realize this as well so that point is probably moot. The only thing I will say is there is no way to distinguish your personal religious belief experience from anyone elses so there is no reason I could ever agree with your view and not some other belief that contradicts yours. It is because of that issue I see personal religious views as essentually making it up ourselves, and is a big reason I rejected Christianity and religion as a whole.

          Your second point is your belief answers questions science can't answer. This isn't news either, history is full of religion making up answers to questions. I would challenge you though, has religion, any religion, every been able to show they are correct on anything they have asserted? Making up answers to... as to yet... unanswered questions is not interesting in the least to me. One can claim answers all they want but until they can be demonstrated they are not really answers at all. They remain just claims. I am sure you knew I would answer this way, But you said "I think I have found answers"... I think it would be more accurate to say you have accepted claims. You may say this is symantics... but for me to accept something is true, it has to be more than that. I will give you great credit for admitting you could be wrong. I have often said "I changed my mind once, I have no problem doing it again". But I will only do that for good reason, if a god wants me to believe, he would know what it would take. I will check back tomorrow.

          August 20, 2013 at 3:02 am |
        • G to the T

          Pride – I wouldn't call it arrogance – presumption maybe but not arrogance.

          August 20, 2013 at 3:10 pm |
        • Responding to the Pride

          Blessed–still on limited time here, but I did one to address one point you ask about: "Has religion, any religion, every been able to show they are correct on anything they have asserted?" This questions implies that religion is nothing more than a set of facts. Speaking from the Christian perspective, there is so much more to it. Your question doesn't fit some of the most important aspects: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That code of conduct can't be answered as a matter of proof. Also, the some of the question assumes that the answer must be found within the confines of the religion itself, but we know that is not true. Lets look at the biggest claim–Jesus was resurrected. Saying he is resurrected because my religion says so is circular–that IS my religion. So I have to look outside of that religion. Again, I won't go into proof issues (waste of time here), but I am satisfied that it is true–as implausible as it sounds.

          August 20, 2013 at 5:21 pm |
        • Responding to the Pride

          Good grief–sorry for all the typos.

          August 20, 2013 at 5:50 pm |
        • Just the Facts Ma'am...

          pride /prīd/ Noun: A feeling of pleasure from one's own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is associated, or from qualities or possessio...

          "I will tell you that I while you are still looking for answers, I think I have found them." feeling a little pleasure from that achievement are you? And not sensing any pride?

          "Saying he is resurrected because my religion says so is circular–that IS my religion. So I have to look outside of that religion. Again, I won't go into proof issues (waste of time here), but I am satisfied that it is true–as implausible as it sounds."

          So you are saying you understand that your logic is circular and that you have no objective evidence of your God but no matter how implausible it sounds you will stick with your position that you have already found the answers to life biggest questions. So be it, such is blind faith.

          August 20, 2013 at 6:04 pm |
        • Responding to the Pride

          Facts...you are reading way too much into my statements (and attributing to me things that are flat out wrong). My statement that I have found answers was never intended as a prideful statement–I think my subsequent statements about me simply being satisfied with the answers I have bore that out. It was never intended as a boast that have something and Blessed didn't.

          My logic isn't circular...I specifically said I wasn't looking at my religion as proof for my faith–that I was looking outside of it. How did you miss that? I also didn't say that I don't have objective evidence, only that I wasn't going to get into that (because I had made it clear to Blessed that that was my way of addressing this debate). If you want to interrupt and interject into a debate that you weren't invited to–go ahead, look like a fool.

          August 20, 2013 at 7:57 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          -This questions implies that religion is nothing more than a set of facts.-

          No, that is not what it implies whatsoever, what it implies is that religion has NO facts regarding the important issues of divinity, it supplied nothing to the knowledge base at the time that was not already known.

          -Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.-

          This philosophical concept is not original to christianity. Most cultures had some version of this, and some of them had superior versions such as "treat others the way they would want to be treated. Don't get me wrong Jesus had some positive things to say, but not all of them were wonderfull moral statements. Some things were bad advice, or actually immoral, or plane dumb. That is why christianity needs the miracles, to validate it's claim of divinity because otherwise there is nothing new.

          -Saying he is resurrected because my religion says so is circular–that IS my religion. So I have to look outside of that religion.-

          You first part is correct, the claim of divinity is circular. So you look outside of that religion to find proof of the resurrection?...you lost me.... There is not any evidence outside your religion for any miracle that was claimed...and the evidence that is IN your religion is horrible for claims of that magnitude.

          August 20, 2013 at 10:09 pm |
      • skytag

        Wow, that was childish. Did Jesus tell you to say that?

        August 19, 2013 at 7:27 pm |
        • Responding to the Pride

          Yes...it was inscribed on a flour tortilla.

          August 19, 2013 at 7:44 pm |
  20. lol?? Pithiest, YES!!

    Why debate?? The Beast is runnin' outta money. When it revs up the A&A's it ain't gonna be pretty. It's a great time to get yer name off a gubmint church's membership roll.

    'Sides, if you find an altar in a church it's fake. Christians are the temple.

    August 19, 2013 at 12:35 pm |
    • truthprevails1

      Keep that dream alive...some of us aren't so gullible.

      August 19, 2013 at 12:48 pm |
    • lamelionheart

      Sired lol??...

      Christians are but Godly buildings be they condominiums or mansions or storehouses and churches... Some of us are mere 7/11s and gas stations... LoL... 😳

      August 19, 2013 at 12:50 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.