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August 18th, 2013
07:49 PM ET

Debating why millenials are leaving the church

(CNN)–Rachel Evans and Hemant Mehta joined CNN's Brianna Keilar and Martin Savidge to speak about millenials losing their religion.

They were debating Evan's piece from the Belief Blog looking at why millenials are leaving the church and Mehta's response suggesting millenials are leaving the church to try atheism.

Tell us what you think.  Join the conversation in the comments.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Atheism • Belief

soundoff (1,388 Responses)
  1. dfgddfgfh

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    WILL YOU DO WHEN YOU DO THIS TO YOUR CHILDREN.

    INFORMANT INTERVIEWS – MENTAL Torturers – STUDIES OF THE HUMAN RACE WITH ALL AGENCIES OF COUNTRIES THAT

    ARE NOT DEMOCRATIC STATE – WHY, JUST FOR BUSINESS – PUSHING THE VENEZUELAN irradiating DEMENTIA A WHILE

    AND TELEVISION PROGRAMS DO TO PEOPLE THAT HANDLED CREATE THAT ARE HANDLING IS ONLY A MATTER OF

    SCIENCE FICTION CUNADO MILLION CASES HAVE CEREBRAL DESTRUCTION.

    NEW PAGE FOR SERIAL CRIMINALS THAT WE HAVE COMPLAINED OF COUNTRIES PAGE SUSPENDED.

    THE REASON THE CONTENT IS REALITY.

    WHY WOULD AN AGENCY IS TO REMOVE TAKE A PAGE MOLETIA SRs. FROM CNN.

    LES HAVE A QUESTION.

    GIVES NO FEAR THAT HANDLED WITH NANO TECHNOLOGY.

    BY LES STRIKE WHEN THE VICTIMS hypothalamus, GENETIC DAMAGE OCCURS MANY.

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    WE CARE MEDICAL KNOWLEDGE PROFESSIONALS FOR NORTH AMERICAN UNIVERSITIES THAT ARE Ecxelentes
    .
    BUT THESE COMPANIES THAT PRODUCE SUCH DRUGS INCLUDE NANO NANO PARTICLES AS COMPUTERS.

    August 24, 2013 at 5:55 pm | Report abuse | Reply

    August 24, 2013 at 8:13 pm |
  2. Jonah

    Not too long ago I was working as the accountant for a small corporation. One day the boss came in all happy and announced to the staff, "Things are really going well! You guys are really putting out! I am going to give you all a nice bonus for Christmas this year!" My co-worker was overjoyed and went out and bought a bunch of stuff anticipating his nice bonus. I just said to myself, "Well, I'll believe that when I see it.". A few weeks before Christmas the boss comes in again. "I am really sorry, Guys, but things aren't going so well and I can't give you that bonus I promised." My co-worker was devastated! He had spent all his money and was really depending on that bonus!

    Nephi said, "34 O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm."

    (2 Nephi 4:34)

    August 24, 2013 at 9:52 am |
  3. Andy

    After having passed through the crucible of faith it is almost impossible that I could ever return. Not knowing the future I would not say impossible but pretty close. Growing up in a Brethren in Christ church, very evangelistic and the bible was literal and unquestioned, to turn the faith channel back on to Christianity would be as likely as believing in Athena.
    To get any of the younger generations back would require only a few changes:
    1) Remove hell
    2) Remove Vicarious redemption
    3) Stop teaching Creationism
    4) Accept everyone
    5) Frequent public outreach to assist the community

    August 24, 2013 at 8:09 am |
    • Arvoasitis

      Well said! Hell, vicarious redemption, and Creationism are absurdities taught by the mainline churches that are failing.

      August 24, 2013 at 2:37 pm |
  4. GFHFGHFG

    AHORA PARA TODOS LOS PSIQUIATRAS QUE ESTAN DEL OTRO LADO EN EL CASO QUE ESTOS MENSAJES SE VEAN DE LO CUAL TENEMOS DUDAS POR QUE LO HEMOS HECHO 13.000 VECES Y AVECES HACKEAN.

    SI NO LO HUBIESEMOS HECHO DE ESTA MANERA AUN CON LOS VIDEOS DE NANO COMPUTADORAS USTEDES QUE HUBIESEN HECHO.

    AHORA USTED ESTA MANIPULADO O NO?.

    PSYCHIATRISTS NOW FOR ALL WHO ARE THE OTHER SIDE IF YOU SEE THESE MESSAGES OF QUESTIONS FOR WHICH WE HAVE DONE THAT SOMETIMES AND SOMETIMES hacked 13,000.

    If we had not EVEN THUS DONE WITH NANO CLIPS COMPUTER THAT YOU HAD DONE.

    NOW YOU ARE HANDLING OR NOT.
    DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

    August 23, 2013 at 8:24 pm |
  5. DSFGSYRTY

    THE HUMAN RACE DREEM – JUST EAT HUMAN IT!..

    THE DREEM OF THE BLACK PRESIDENT MENTAL ILLNES.

    ROBIN BANKS IN LATIN AMERICA – CITIZENS DENOUNCING.

    AND FBI CIA INTERPOL COLECTING MODEL.

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    WHAT WE CAN DO WITH RHIS LITTLE PROBLEM, IN OUR COUNTRY THIS ACTIVITIES.

    ARE GENOCIDE.

    August 23, 2013 at 3:38 pm |
  6. GFSXVZASDFCVBX234234

    HUMAN RACE STUDIES IN VENEZUELA.

    1.000.000 Million of Cases TO MENTAL TORTURES HOW WE ARE GOING TO DO CNN?.

    ...WITH CRIMINALS AGENCIES!!!!!!!!!.

    CROSSFIRE VENEZUELAN GENOCIDE.

    HUMANS SELL IN VENEZUELA.

    CASES OF BRAIN DESTRUCTION ORGANS DESTRUCTION TESTICULS DESTRUCTION.

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    August 23, 2013 at 12:40 pm | Report abuse | Reply

    August 23, 2013 at 12:56 pm |
  7. mzh

    Those who say Islam does not give value to the women… there are plenty of verses in the Quran talks for woman and few of them are below… I understand that there are muslims around the earth who does not follow the commands that they should behave good with their woman… but I would not point to them rather will see what is there in the manual which is the quran:

    O you who have believed, it is not lawful for you to inherit women by compulsion. And do not make difficulties for them in order to take [back] part of what you gave them unless they commit a clear immorality. And live with them in kindness. If you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing and Allah brings through it a great deal of good. – 4:19

    And of His signs is that He created you from dust; then, suddenly you were human beings dispersing [throughout the earth]. – 30:20

    And of His signs is that He created for you from yourselves wives that you may find tranquility in them; and He placed between you affection and mercy. Indeed in that are signs for a people who give thought. – 30:21

    August 23, 2013 at 9:43 am |
    • jjg777.

      I am a Christian so I won't even deal with the comments you made regarding other non Christian religions. However regarding the bible:

      The bible says there is only one name under heaven whereby men (and women) must be saved. The Lord Jesus.

      The bible claims that Jesus was raised from the dead by the Father. No other religion claims that a man was raised from the dead. That he was seen on the earth for 40 days after he was resurrected (by more than 500 people) and that he then went up to heaven on a cloud. That he now sits on the right hand of the Father making intersession for our sins.

      The rapture will take all born again believers to heaven. Leaving the rest of humanity in a horrible time of war and the coming of a man called the Antichrist and a season of horror for 7 years most of humanity will be killed by other men and Christ will return for 1000 years of peace. Then unbelievably after 1000 years of his rule on earth, man kind will still revote and be promptly put down.

      The bible has been incredibly accurate. Going back even to non Christian sources such as Josephus where he describes Christ in around the first century. The bible knows things that man has just recently discovered. For example in four places the bible says that "God stretches out the heavens like a curtain." If you read what Hubble discovered that the galaxies are flying away from each other in just that manner. His discovery was not made until 1929!!!

      Or how about looking at many of the (hidden) prophesies in the Psalms. For example: Each of the Psalms seems to describe events that match the number of that Psalm in the 20th and 21th century. For example Psalm 91 for 1991. It very accurately describes gulf war number one. The Psalms talks about arrows (scud missles) tipped with biological weapons (pestilences in the bible). Read the whole Psalm for your self. Or maybe you want to read Psalm 102 (for right after 9-11-2001). It describes a building (the trade towers) coming down and people in the dust! Read it for your self.

      Or maybe Psalm 46 (right after the 2nd World war) it says God ends all war and it describes the earth melting (atomic bomb). I could go on.

      Man has no other answers to why it we are evolved rather than made by God that every other planet that we have discovered is barren and weird with no chance of life.

      There is a all powerful, all knowing, all present God and he can give you eternal life if :

      You confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Jesus from the dead you will be saved!!!

      Finally, to prove this statement above read the story of the crucifixion of Christ, with 2 bad men one on either side of Christ also being crucifixion. The one bad man said to Christ on the cross, "If you be the Christ, come down off that cross and save your self and then save me." But the other bad man on the other side of Christ said to his bad friend, " You and I deserve what we are getting but this man (Christ) has done nothing amiss. Then he turned to Christ and said " Lord when you come into your Kingdom, remember me. Therefore he called Jesus "Lord" with his mouth, and must have believed in his heart that Jesus was going to be raised from the dead (because at the moment Jesus was on the Cross.) He met the requirements of the verse "Confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead and you will be saved.

      What did Jesus say to the one thief who made this confession (but not to the other). He said "This day will you be with me in paradise (Paradise became Heaven).

      Fall away from the church if you will as the bible says–There will be a great falling away." But one day you will see the Lord Jesus standing before you with the nail prints in his hands and his feet and you will say "Lord I believe now."

      But it will be TO LATE.

      Yes as the bible says "EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL CONFESS (THE LORD JESUS) TO THE GLORY OF THE FATHER.

      BUT SADLY FOR SOME OF YOU IT WILL BE TO LATE. "NOW IS THE ACCEPTABLE TIME OF THE LORD."

      August 23, 2013 at 12:24 pm |
      • Reality

        And now returning to the 21st century:

        The Apostles'’ Creed 2013: (updated by yours truly and based on the studies of historians and theologians of the past 200 years)

        Should I believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
        and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
        human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven??

        I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
        preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
        named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
        girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)

        Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
        the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,

        He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
        a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of
        Jerusalem.

        Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by
        many semi-fiction writers. A descent into Hell, a bodily resurrection
        and ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
        Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
        grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
        and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
        called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.

        Amen
        (references used are available upon request)

        August 23, 2013 at 3:28 pm |
        • jjg777.

          FIRST RETURNING TO THE 21TH CENTURY...Please realize that truth is truth in any century!!!

          SHOULD YOU BELIEVE? THAT IS THE QUESTION. BUT ONLY YOU CAN ANSWER IT. There is abundant evidence for the God of the Universe and for the Lord Jesus Christ. God said...A fool says in his heart there is no God.

          Gods test for humanity is "do we believe?" If you do not believe than the bible says he that comes to the father must believe that he is" so ......

          But there is ample evidence for God all around you. You chose not to comment on how the bible knew the Universe was expanding. You chose not to mention how the prophesies in the Psalms (occurring with in one year ) of the events mentioned occurred.

          You can not explain where the Universe came from (unless you believe it came from nothing). But in the bible it says God said let there be light and there was light.

          If you would rather live your life with out hope and die and realize to late that you were wrong than have at it.

          August 23, 2013 at 4:25 pm |
        • robert chacon

          The only myth is the one you have accepted from pseudo historians who look back at history from 2000 years while completely ignoring the testimony of those who were there! Thats NOT true history, thats stupidity! Philosophers who want to know what Plato meant look at commentaries of those who lived in his time. Those who write about Abraham Lincoln look at what he actually wrote and use biographers at the time. The idiots whose garbage you buy ignore everything written and done at the time of Christ and try to proclaim they know the truth based on 2000 years of distance between.them and the reality. Thats not sound historical research, its foolish lunacy! Why would men sacrifice their lives to tell the truth of a a risen messiah? To spread a whopper of a fish tale?? How would the body of Christ be removed when both the Jews and Romans stationed there to ensure his body wouldnt be removed. Why did his disciples continue to teach what they believed about Christ when they all could have faced death as punishment for doing so? Because it would be fun to pose a hoax? Nonsense! These so called cesar myths have nothing to do with historical Christianity! They are simply straw men arguments posed by rabid anti catholics to try to discredit Catholicism. But if you know anything about Church history, they have a completely different origin, context and theological ontology from anything to do with Christianity. Christianity and more particularly historical Catholicism developed its liturgy, theology, morality from Jewish tradition, which was quite distinct from anything else in the ancient world! Your little mocking Apostles Creed, while not only insulting, is simply historically, theologically and even mythologically false. Sorry!

          August 23, 2013 at 7:20 pm |
      • mzh

        Dear jjg777

        Islam teaches to respect other religions and advises to be patient and merciful to others as it is mentioned in the Quran that ‘there is no compulsion in religion’, a Muslim is commanded just to share the message in the Quran with others and let them make the decision. Islam also teaches if you have a non-Muslim as your guest, treat him and protect him as you protect yourselves.

        Quran was revealed to prophet Muhammad (pbuh) through Angel Gabreal, the one who came to Marry the mother of Jesus and to Jesus the son of Marry (pbuh).
        Quran gives clear pictures of what happened to the previous generation and alerts us so that we do not fall to same error that the previous generation did. It states more than hundred times the name of Moses (pbuh) and almost hundred times the name of Jesus the son of Marry (pbuh). It teaches to the mankind not to distensions between the prophets, each prophets has different miracles to show their people, for example during the time of Moses, people is Egypt were obsessed with magic, so the miracles were shown to the children of Israel and Egyptians related to magic, example of Jesus the son of Marry (pbuh) showed his people to cure the blind, bringing death to life by the power of The Almighty and so on…
        Quran gives clear picture about who Jesus the son of Marry was and orders Muhammad (pbuh) to tell the people of the book (refers to Jews and Christians) what to do, help to open their eyes but again by not force by with wisdom and many more…
        Quran has been sent down to guide mankind from darknesses to light as the Injeel given to Jesus the son of Marry, Zabur (Psalm) to David and Torah to Moses as a light for their people to be guided to the light.
        Quran also talks about the last prophet to come in every books came before it. But human are not willing to accept the truth and its completely up to individual whether to accept or reject as there is no compulsion in the religion. My job is just to let them know about the oneness of The Almighty and He has no associations whether a son, daughter, wife or anything else.

        Here are few of the verses mentioned in the Quran related to Jesus the son of Marry and I hope it will encourage you to go in there and learn more if God wills:

        HE WAS NOT CRUCIFIED:
        4:157 – And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," – but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) ]

        BUT HE WAS TAKEN UP TO THE GOD ALMIGHTY:
        3:55 – And (remember) when Allah said: "O 'Iesa (Jesus)! I will take you and raise you to Myself and clear you [of the forged statement that 'Iesa (Jesus) is Allah's son] of those who disbelieve, and I will make those who follow you (Monotheists, who worship none but Allah) superior to those who disbelieve [in the Oneness of Allah, or disbelieve in some of His Messengers, e.g. Muhammad SAW, 'Iesa (Jesus), Musa (Moses), etc., or in His Holy Books, e.g. the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), the Quran] till the Day of Resurrection. Then you will return to Me and I will judge between you in the matters in which you used to dispute."

        4:158 – Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.

        JESUS WAS ANY OTHER MESSENGER CAME BEFORE HIM:
        5:74 – The Messiah ['Iesa (Jesus)], son of Maryam (Mary), was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother [Maryam (Mary)] was a Siddiqah [i.e. she believed in the words of Allah and His Books (see Verse 66:12)]. They both used to eat food (as any other human being, while Allah does not eat). Look how We make the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) clear to them, yet look how they are deluded away (from the truth).

        JESUS PERFORMED MIRACLES:
        5:110 – (Remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection). "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Remember My Favour to you and to your mother when I supported you with Ruh-ul-Qudus [Jibrael (Gabriel)] so that you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and when I taught you writing, Al-Hikmah (the power of understanding), the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel); and when you made out of the clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My Permission, and you breathed into it, and it became a bird by My Permission, and you healed those born blind, and the lepers by My Permission, and when you brought forth the dead by My Permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from you (when they resolved to kill you) since you came unto them with clear proofs, and the disbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.' "

        JESUS WILL BE ASKED ON THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT:
        5:116 – (Remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection). "O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)! Remember My Favour to you and to your mother when I supported you with Ruh-ul-Qudus [Jibrael (Gabriel)] so that you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and when I taught you writing, Al-Hikmah (the power of understanding), the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel); and when you made out of the clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My Permission, and you breathed into it, and it became a bird by My Permission, and you healed those born blind, and the lepers by My Permission, and when you brought forth the dead by My Permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from you (when they resolved to kill you) since you came unto them with clear proofs, and the disbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.' "

        ABOUT HIS DESCIPLES:
        61:14 – O you who have believed, be supporters of Allah , as when Jesus, the son of Mary, said to the disciples, "Who are my supporters for Allah ?" The disciples said, "We are supporters of Allah." And a faction of the Children of Israel believed and a faction disbelieved. So We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they became dominant.

        3:52 – Then when 'Iesa (Jesus) came to know of their disbelief, he said: "Who will be my helpers in Allah's Cause?" Al-Hawariun (the disciples) said: "We are the helpers of Allah; we believe in Allah, and bear witness that we are Muslims (i.e. we submit to Allah)."

        3:53 – Our Lord! We believe in what You have sent down, and we follow the Messenger ['Iesa (Jesus)]; so write us down among those who bear witness (to the truth i.e. La ilaha ill-Allah – none has the right to be worshipped but Allah).

        JESUS CONFIRMED ABOUT COMING OF MUHAMMAD (as it is also mentioned in John):
        61:6 – And (remember) when 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), said: "O Children of Israel! I am the Messenger of Allah unto you confirming the Taurat [(Torah) which came] before me, and giving glad tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad. But when he (Ahmad i.e. Muhammad SAW) came to them with clear proofs, they said: "This is plain magic."

        3:51 – Indeed, Allah is my (Jesus) Lord and your (the disciples) Lord, so worship Him. That is the straight path."

        O our Lord forgive us for all our sins and we associate no one and nothing with you and guide us to the straight path… amen

        August 24, 2013 at 9:07 pm |
      • Lloyd

        Is this a challenge of who believes in the most revengeful God? Why not just ask God to come down and prove without a doubt to everyone which religion is the right one. If I wait for that day I must remain an Atheist because then all Gods are equal including Sun, Wind and rain plus any other Gods, if I don't wait for that day and believe in only what can be proven I will be an Atheist. So the only honest choice I can make logically is to be an Atheist.

        August 25, 2013 at 10:32 am |
        • jjg777.

          Imagine you are called in to court for a crime that leads to months of horrible punishment followed by death. You enter the court room and notice that your attorney looks just like the Judge. Your attorney whispers in your ear that he is the Judges son and that he has already taken punishment for your crime. That all you have to do is tell the judge that you appreciate what his son the attorney has done and you will be found not guilty. Would you tell the attorney NO you are not going to do that?? Would you rather face the punishment. Really?

          This is the situation you will face when you die. Did you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that the father raised the son from the grave and you will be saved.

          August 25, 2013 at 11:41 pm |
        • Lloyd

          JIG777, you start of saying imagine..... Sorry I just cannot imagine such a wild and unbelievable story with no basis in reality. I can understand that to believe in such a story you need to constsntly chant, to reaffirm your belief and read religious writings to override the reality of logic that surrounds you. For the most part you do me no harm by you believing in your story so go ahead.

          August 27, 2013 at 8:19 am |
        • jjg777.

          No chanting here. If you do not believe in God please tell me where the universe came from. Please explain why most people who believe in evolution are realizing that the shark would have to evolve with many features simultaneously to be able to become as dominant as he is. That when a study of man's dNA was done (by sampling DNA from many different nationalities) ultimately they traced them all to the same couple called ...yes you guessed it ...adam and eve. If you do not believe that God inspired the bible how in the world could the bible declare that God stretches out the heavens like a curtain (3 or 4 times) something that Hubble only found out in 1929.

          August 27, 2013 at 1:57 pm |
        • Jerome Haltom

          > If you do not believe in God please tell me where the universe came from.

          I do not know. I also do not invent answers when evidence is lacking. I simply say "I don't know."

          >Please explain why most people who believe in evolution are realizing that the shark would have to evolve with many features simultaneously to be able to become as dominant as he is

          Most people who believe in evolution do not believe this, hence the question is undercut.

          > That when a study of man’s dNA was done (by sampling DNA from many different nationalities) ultimately they traced them all to the same couple called …yes you guessed it …adam and eve

          Alright. You're dumb. Really? First, you know scientists choose these names because of their religious references, right? They don't actually know the names of two people from the past. That's actually the most condemning part of this...

          Second, they lived thousands of years apart.

          Third, they were never the only two humans alive. They are just the two most recent common ancestors (Adam for the Y chromosome, Eve for the X).

          >If you do not believe that God inspired the bible how in the world could the bible declare that God stretches out the heavens like a curtain (3 or 4 times) something that Hubble only found out in 1929.

          I don't even know what this means. I guess I missed the scientific paper where Edwin declared that the heavens were stretched out like a curtain. Are you referring to his discovery of red shifting, implying that the Universe is expanding?

          August 27, 2013 at 9:14 pm |
        • Cpt. Obvious

          LOL, Halton is trying to do the impossible: "fix stupid" Good luck, sir. 🙂

          August 27, 2013 at 9:17 pm |
        • Lloyd

          jig777 Our society is based on the right to believe whatever you want, until it gets into court and law. At that point proof/reality/tested science comes to play and what you believe is irrelavant.
          You and Muslims, Hindus, Jews and thousands of other religions have the right for their followers to believe what they want, but when you present it as fact then it is great for a laugh, I thank you for your comedy. However, beyond a certain point it just sounds ridiculos which I think is the point you have reached. Enjoy your religion but know its place.

          August 28, 2013 at 12:28 am |
    • Reality

      But mzh you forgot to mention the following passages from the koran:

      10. A husband has se-x with his wife, as a plow goes into a field.

      The Quran in Sura (Chapter) 2:223 says:

      Your women are your fields, so go into your fields whichever way you like . . . . (MAS Abdel Haleem, The Qur’an, Oxford UP, 2004)

      9. Husbands are a degree above their wives.

      The Quran in Sura 2:228 says:

      . . . Wives have the same rights as the husbands have on them in accordance with the generally known principles. Of course, men are a degree above them in status . . . (Sayyid Abul A’La Maududi, The Meaning of the Qur’an, vol. 1, p. 165)

      8. A male gets a double share of the inheritance over that of a female.

      The Quran in Sura 4:11 says:

      The share of the male shall be twice that of a female . . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 311)

      7. A woman’s testimony counts half of a man’s testimony.

      The Quran in Sura 2:282 says:

      And let two men from among you bear witness to all such doc-uments [contracts of loans without interest]. But if two men be not available, there should be one man and two women to bear witness so that if one of the women forgets (anything), the other may remind her. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 205).

      6. A wife may remarry her ex—husband if and only if she marries another man and then this second man divorces her.

      The Quran in Sura 2:230 says:

      And if the husband divorces his wife (for the third time), she shall not remain his lawful wife after this (absolute) divorce, unless she marries another husband and the second husband divorces her. [In that case] there is no harm if they [the first couple] remarry . . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 165)

      5. Slave—girls are se-xual property for their male owners.

      The Quran in Sura 4:24 says:

      And forbidden to you are wedded wives of other people except those who have fallen in your hands [as prisoners of war] . . . (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 319).

      4. A man may be polygamous with up to four wives.

      The Quran in Sura 4:3 says:

      And if you be apprehensive that you will not be able to do justice to the orphans, you may marry two or three or four women whom you choose. But if you apprehend that you might not be able to do justice to them, then marry only one wife, or marry those who have fallen in your possession. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 305)

      3. A husband may simply get rid of one of his undesirable wives.

      The Quran in Sura 4:129 says:

      It is not within your power to be perfectly equitable in your treatment with all your wives, even if you wish to be so; therefore, [in order to satisfy the dictates of Divine Law] do not lean towards one wife so as to leave the other in a state of suspense. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 381)

      2. Husbands may hit their wives even if the husbands merely fear highhandedness in their wives (quite apart from whether they actually are highhanded).

      The Quran in Sura 4:34 says:

      4:34 . . . If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great. (Haleem, emphasis added)

      1. Mature men are allowed to marry prepu-bescent girls.

      The Quran in Sura 65:1, 4 says:

      65:1 O Prophet, when you [and the believers] divorce women, divorce them for their prescribed waiting—period and count the waiting—period accurately . . . 4 And if you are in doubt about those of your women who have despaired of me-nstruation, (you should know that) their waiting period is three months, and the same applies to those who have not me-nstruated as yet. As for pregnant women, their period ends when they have delivered their burden. (Maududi, vol. 5, pp. 599 and 617, emphasis added)

      August 23, 2013 at 3:26 pm |
      • Sara

        Yes, but if a woman accepts her lower status, worth and the abuses of her husband she should be respected.

        August 24, 2013 at 12:56 am |
    • Lloyd

      Wow it sure is interesting when different fairy tales argue which is more real.

      August 25, 2013 at 10:10 am |
  8. Jonah

    You know, everyone in the world has faith...............in something. What do you put your faith in? Many people have put their faith in the American Government for years, only to find out that the rich and powerful control the government and use our children as cannon fodder in foreign wars to protect their oil interests and to get filthy richer. Now we find that they invade our privacy and collect files of information on us.

    I used to put my faith in my company. The CEO would have frequent meetings and tell us the company was going bankrupt and that we all needed to tighten our belts and sacrifice for the good of the company. One morning we all woke up to the news that the CEO had left the company and took 200 million dollars of company money with him! We do the sacrificing, the big wigs get the profits!

    Many of us put our faith in the American dollar and we put it in the bank and feel it is safe. Then the government needs money and so they print it and suddenly they have value where it didn't exist. But, where did the value come from? The dollar used to hold a hundred times more value than it does today.

    I have a relative who has cancer. We have done everything that the doctors and medical science know to do, but it is not working. We can prepare. We can buy insurance and try to save for the future and anticipate problems that might come up, but, you know, in the end everyone of us will face a situation that we can do absolutely nothing about and all we can do is wring our hands in frustration!

    Jeremiah said this: 11 Hath a nation changed their gods, which are yet no gods? but my people have changed their glory for that which doth not profit. (Jeremiah 2:11). 13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water. (Jeremiah 2:13)

    Is your faith invested in "cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water?" I have personally put my faith in the living God all of my life and he has never failed me. I have actually experienced what David said in the 23rd Psalm, "5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over. (Psalms 23:5)". I truly know the joy, happiness and contentment that comes from putting my faith and trust in the Lord and I wish to share this happiness with others. I invite you to go to mormon.org where kind, unpaid volunteers will show you the way. There really is something completely reliable that you can put your trust in!

    August 23, 2013 at 9:42 am |
    • Andy

      So you have fully vetted the history of the Mormon church the beginning and where Joseph Smith was inspired.

      August 24, 2013 at 8:11 am |
    • Jerome Haltom

      I have faith in nothing: if faith is accepted to be defined in the same way as that used by you to justify your belief.

      August 27, 2013 at 9:35 pm |
  9. skytag

    @JimK57: "He did not program your brain anymore then your parents did by conceiving you. Once you are born everything is your choice."

    If people truly have free will, why do identical twins separated at birth make so many of the same and similar choices? Studies of twins separated at birth make a pretty good case for the view that a lot of what determines the choices you'll make was programmed into your brain when your parents conceived you.

    August 23, 2013 at 2:39 am |
    • Bill Deacon

      If that is true why are there so many twins where on e is gaay and the other is not?

      August 23, 2013 at 9:45 am |
      • Just the Facts Ma'am...

        Bill, I know you are not that dumb. Much like how identical twins have different fingerprints, many factors in gene activation or expression even identical twins can differ. Please try learning something about epigenetics and gene expression before making statements that expose your lack of education. The studies done recently that went out and found identical twins where one was gay prove nothing in regards to gene expression and epigenetics and certainly does not prove gay people are not born with a predisposition towards h omo se xuality. Also, the studies did not show as you say "there so many twins " where one is gay and the other is not as if it was some sort of epidemic, the percent of gay twins is about the same as it is for non-twin siblings.

        August 23, 2013 at 2:22 pm |
  10. 7

    Everyone is invited to visit... thetreasureofzion.com

    August 22, 2013 at 11:55 pm |
  11. Claude Bawls

    I left the church about 25yrs ago. When I talk to people who have left recently, I get the same reason I left all those years ago. It's not that the church is full of imperfect people, it's that it is full of people that don't even try to live up to the standards they preach. People so dedicated to their own greed, predjudice and ignorance that they pay lip service to the teachings of Christ and nothing more. When I asked the people of my church (many of them relatives) why they don't practice what they preach, I was given time and again the old cla-ssic cop-out "I'm not perfect, I'm forgiven". I was told by an uncle , a church deacon, that he could only be friends with black people in heaven.
    I tried many denominations that started out promising but after you scratched the surface they were all the same.
    That was my reason for leaving.

    August 22, 2013 at 11:39 pm |
    • robert chacon

      Claude,
      d
      That really makes no sense.Sorry to sound insulting, but thats like giving up swimming because your swim team is always in last place! Cubs fans make more sense than your statement. The truth of Christ is truth whether or not ANYONE lives up to His calling. As GK Chesterton wrote, "The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting, its been tried and found difficult." Dont deny Christianity or the Church because others are hypocrites; that just makes you one of the hypocrites. People who dont want to follow Christianity use hypocrisy as their evidence that its not true. Its easy to avoid being a hypocrite when you dont stand for anything! Being a Christian and falling short in sin, doesnt make you a hypocrite, it simply means your human. The problem is when you claim to be a Christian and yet always sin without repentance. But then if thats the case, that person probably isnt a Christian and is a hypocrite. But going back to Chesterton, thats doesnt mean Christianity is found wanting. It means we are found wanting and needing of Christianity.

      August 23, 2013 at 8:58 pm |
      • Claude Bawls

        It really doesn't need to make sense to you. I made the right decision based on my experiences.

        August 24, 2013 at 3:45 pm |
        • sam stone

          i returned to the faith 26 years ago cause of atheists like observer and sam stone. their spray in the face 12 gauge jokes were so funny, i had to hang out with more solemn, miserable people who never smile and hate everybody

          September 19, 2013 at 12:37 am |
  12. skytag

    I wonder how much of this "leaving" is actual a decline of new young people entering as former millennials grow out of that classification. Greater knowledge, greater understanding of the world around us, a better knowledge of history, a better understanding of other cultures, these and other things reduce the appeal of churches to supply answers and make people more skeptical of the promises religions make.

    August 22, 2013 at 8:12 pm |
    • Really for real Scotsman

      What would your take be on this: Is the decline of organized religion the same as a decline in spirituality?

      August 22, 2013 at 8:21 pm |
      • skytag

        I haven't really thought about it and can't think of any evidence on which I could base an opinion. Also, "spirituality" is kind of a vague term that means different things to different people. What's your definition of spirituality?

        August 23, 2013 at 2:19 am |
  13. The Rev Dr Sherwood Forrester

    Seems simple enough to me why they're leaving - they're tired of being lied to by hypocrites and hatemongers.

    August 22, 2013 at 7:35 pm |
  14. bostontola

    From Vic: If you don't have "Free Will," how can you be liable to/held accountable by the "Law of the land?!"

    1. Your concern with how we can be accountable bears absolutely no weight regarding whether we actually have free will or not.
    2. Whether we have free will is not a philosophical question, it can be tested (i.e. it is a scientific question). We know that a great deal of our actions are processed below the conscious level, i.e. not free will. A great deal of our actions are processed consciously, so they involve choice/free will, but not all.
    3. It's easy to hold people accountable, just make laws and impose punishment if found guilty. We don't ask if free will was involved. We do distinguish shades of gray, 1st degree murder for full free will has higher penalties than crimes of passion.

    August 22, 2013 at 6:17 pm |
    • Sara

      "Free will" is intellectual putty. The simple minded use the idea to fill gaps in their reasoning and justify their feelings of anger and self-righteousness.

      August 22, 2013 at 7:29 pm |
    • Jerome Haltom

      I always enjoyed comparing this to natural disasters:

      If I could put a hurricane or other natural disaster in jail to prevent it from hurting other people, I would. Unfortunately, I can't. But I can put people in jail, so I do.

      August 27, 2013 at 9:37 pm |
  15. Kas

    I think that many are leaving because of the extreme views. Younger generations are evolving and forward thinking. In many was the church can be stuck in only the past. It is very hard to go every Sunday and agree with only bits and pieces of what is being said. If they would only preach the actual words in the bible and not put their spin on what it "really" means, I wouldn't mind going. I feel like things are twisted to support their stance on many social topics.

    August 22, 2013 at 4:02 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      If they preached they actual words of the Bible, all of them, they would have to put in revolving doors.

      August 22, 2013 at 11:37 pm |
    • Sara

      Depending on how you cut the data, we may in fact be just leveling off after a couple of centuries of increasing religiosity:

      August 27, 2013 at 9:47 pm |
  16. Reality

    And now back to the topic: Only for the new members:

    Putting the kibosh on all religion in less than ten seconds: Priceless !!!

    • As far as one knows or can tell, there was no Abraham i.e. the foundations of Judaism, Christianity and Islam are non-existent.

    • As far as one knows or can tell, there was no Moses i.e the pillars of Judaism, Christianity and Islam have no strength of purpose.

    • There was no Gabriel i.e. Islam fails as a religion. Christianity partially fails.

    • There was no Easter i.e. Christianity completely fails as a religion.

    • There was no Moroni i.e. Mormonism is nothing more than a business cult.

    • Sacred/revered cows, monkey gods, castes, reincarnations and therefore Hinduism fails as a religion.

    • Fat Buddhas here, skinny Buddhas there, reincarnated/reborn Buddhas everywhere makes for a no on Buddhism.

    • A constant cycle of reincarnation until enlightenment is reached and belief that various beings (angels?, tinkerbells? etc) exist that we, as mortals, cannot comprehend makes for a no on Sikhism.

    Added details available upon written request.

    A quick search will put the kibosh on any other groups calling themselves a religion.

    e.g. Taoism

    "The origins of Taoism are unclear. Traditionally, Lao-tzu who lived in the sixth century is regarded as its founder. Its early philosophic foundations and its later beliefs and rituals are two completely different ways of life. Today (1982) Taoism claims 31,286,000 followers.

    Legend says that Lao-tzu was immaculately conceived by a shooting star; carried in his mother's womb for eighty-two years; and born a full grown wise old man. "

    August 22, 2013 at 11:38 am |
    • Andrew

      You are obviously unaware of Dr. Tucker's work at UVa

      August 22, 2013 at 12:35 pm |
      • Honey Badger Don't Care

        Please enlighten us.

        August 22, 2013 at 12:41 pm |
      • Richard Cranium

        In what respect? He is a medical Doctor, with a rather extensive body of work.

        August 22, 2013 at 12:46 pm |
        • Honey Badger Don't Care

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_B._Tucker

          August 22, 2013 at 12:48 pm |
        • Richard Cranium

          Seriously? Reincarnations, memories of past lives?

          Wishful thinking. Nothing more, investigations without evidence. This is the unfortunate results of when science tries to base things on religious beliefs

          August 22, 2013 at 2:40 pm |
      • Honey Badger Don't Care

        Just read up on it. What a bunch of pseudo-intellectual B S.

        August 22, 2013 at 12:47 pm |
    • Reality

      "On the other hand Susan Huelga, a lecturer in quantum mechanics at the University of Hertfordshire, notes that brain dynamics are highly complex, and she finds that there is no more evidence that quantum mechanics is relevant in this field than that it is relevant regarding whether or not God exists.[28]"

      August 22, 2013 at 2:56 pm |
    • skytag

      Stop posting this drivel. It just makes you look obnoxious.

      August 22, 2013 at 4:51 pm |
    • Reality

      origin: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482 NY Times review and important enough to reiterate.

      New Torah For Modern Minds

      “Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. (prob•a•bly
      Adverb: Almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell).

      The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.

      Such startling propositions - the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years - have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity - until now.

      The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called "Etz Hayim" ("Tree of Life" in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine doc-ument.

      The notion that the Bible is not literally true "is more or less settled and understood among most Conservative rabbis," observed David Wolpe, a rabbi at Sinai Temple in Los Angeles and a contributor to "Etz Hayim." But some congregants, he said, "may not like the stark airing of it." Last Passover, in a sermon to 2,200 congregants at his synagogue, Rabbi Wolpe frankly said that "virtually every modern archaeologist" agrees "that the way the Bible describes the Exodus is not the way that it happened, if it happened at all." The rabbi offered what he called a "LITANY OF DISILLUSION”' about the narrative, including contradictions, improbabilities, chronological lapses and the absence of corroborating evidence. In fact, he said, archaeologists digging in the Sinai have "found no trace of the tribes of Israel - not one shard of pottery."

      August 22, 2013 at 11:32 pm |
      • Reality

        2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations (or “mythicizing” from P, M, M, L and J) and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a ma-mzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). An-alyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Ludemann, Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, ) via the NT and related doc-uments have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

        The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hitt-ites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.

        earlychristianwritings.com/

        For added "pizzazz", Catholic theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

        Current RCC problems:

        Pedophiliac priests, an all-male, mostly white hierarchy, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

        2 b., Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley, Roger Williams, the Great “Babs” et al, founders of Christian-based religions or combination religions also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immacu-late co-nceptions).

        Current problems:
        Adulterous preachers, pedophiliac clerics, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology,

        3. Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

        This agenda continues as shown by the ma-ssacre in Mumbai, the as-sas-sinations of Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, the Ft. Hood follower of the koran, the Filipino “koranics”and the Boston Marthon bombers.

        And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

        Current crises:

        The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.

        4. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) – "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."

        The caste/laborer system, reincarnation and cow worship/reverence are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

        Current problems:

        The caste system, reincarnation and cow worship/reverence.

        5. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."

        "However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

        Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circu-mstances of his life. e.g. Buddha by one legend was supposedly talking when he came out of his mother's womb.

        Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies, and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.

        Then, apply the Five F rule: "First Find the Flaws, then Fix the Foundations". And finally there will be religious peace and religious awareness in the world!!!!!

        August 22, 2013 at 11:33 pm |
        • jjg777.

          I am a Christian so I won't even deal with the comments you made regarding other non Christian religions. However regarding the bible:

          The bible says there is only one name under heaven whereby men (and women) must be saved. The Lord Jesus.

          The bible claims that Jesus was raised from the dead by the Father. No other religion claims that a man was raised from the dead. That he was seen on the earth for 40 days after he was resurrected (by more than 500 people) and that he then went up to heaven on a cloud. That he now sits on the right hand of the Father making intersession for our sins.

          The rapture will take all born again believers to heaven. Leaving the rest of humanity in a horrible time of war and the coming of a man called the Antichrist and a season of horror for 7 years most of humanity will be killed by other men and Christ will return for 1000 years of peace. Then unbelievably after 1000 years of his rule on earth, man kind will still revote and be promptly put down.

          The bible has been incredibly accurate. Going back even to non Christian sources such as Josephus where he describes Christ in around the first century. The bible knows things that man has just recently discovered. For example in four places the bible says that "God stretches out the heavens like a curtain." If you read what Hubble discovered that the galaxies are flying away from each other in just that manner. His discovery was not made until 1929!!!

          Or how about looking at many of the (hidden) prophesies in the Psalms. For example: Each of the Psalms seems to describe events that match the number of that Psalm in the 20th and 21th century. For example Psalm 91 for 1991. It very accurately describes gulf war number one. The Psalms talks about arrows (scud missles) tipped with biological weapons (pestilences in the bible). Read the whole Psalm for your self. Or maybe you want to read Psalm 102 (for right after 9-11-2001). It describes a building (the trade towers) coming down and people in the dust! Read it for your self.

          Or maybe Psalm 46 (right after the 2nd World war) it says God ends all war and it describes the earth melting (atomic bomb). I could go on.

          Man has no other answers to why it we are evolved rather than made by God that every other planet that we have discovered is barren and weird with no chance of life.

          There is a all powerful, all knowing, all present God and he can give you eternal life if :

          You confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Jesus from the dead you will be saved!!!

          Finally, to prove this statement above read the story of the crucifixion of Christ, with 2 bad men one on either side of Christ also being crucifixion. The one bad man said to Christ on the cross, "If you be the Christ, come down off that cross and save your self and then save me." But the other bad man on the other side of Christ said to his bad friend, " You and I deserve what we are getting but this man (Christ) has done nothing amiss. Then he turned to Christ and said " Lord when you come into your Kingdom, remember me. Therefore he called Jesus "Lord" with his mouth, and must have believed in his heart that Jesus was going to be raised from the dead (because at the moment Jesus was on the Cross.) He met the requirements of the verse "Confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead and you will be saved.

          What did Jesus say to the one thief who made this confession (but not to the other). He said "This day will you be with me in paradise (Paradise became Heaven).

          Fall away from the church if you will as the bible says–There will be a great falling away." But one day you will see the Lord Jesus standing before you with the nail prints in his hands and his feet and you will say "Lord I believe now."

          But it will be TO LATE.

          Yes as the bible says "EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL CONFESS (THE LORD JESUS) TO THE GLORY OF THE FATHER.

          BUT SADLY FOR SOME OF YOU IT WILL BE TO LATE. "NOW IS THE ACCEPTABLE TIME OF THE LORD."

          August 23, 2013 at 11:42 am |
        • Reality

          Taking the needed steps outside the outdated bible:

          The Apostles' Creed 2013: (updated by yours truly and based on the studies of historians and theologians of the past 200 years)

          Should I believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
          and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
          human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven??

          I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
          preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
          named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
          girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)

          Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
          the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,

          He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
          a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of
          Jerusalem.

          Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by
          many semi-fiction writers. A descent into Hell, a bodily resurrection
          and ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
          Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
          grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
          and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
          called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.

          Amen
          (references used are available upon request)

          August 23, 2013 at 3:32 pm |
  17. Vic

    [
    Tom, Tom, the Other One

    Please explain, Vic. You seem convinced that the things you say are scientific basics actually are true and must be accepted by everyone. Please show that they are true.

    August 21, 2013 at 11:00 pm | Report abuse | Reply
    ]

    This is a very good question, Tom. Here is the thing:

    Finiteness or Infiniteness of the universe is one of the many mysteries where scientists run around like a chicken with its head cut off trying to figure out!

    Basic science posits that all physical matter is finite. Science also posits that the slightest motion in the universe (e.g. expansion, contraction, etc.) is change, and change means that the universe had a "beginning" since it is expanding, hence is temporal, hence is finite.

    Now, the problem is science CAN NOT figure out if the spatial size of the universe is finite or infinite! It is a logical conundrum. It has been one of the most complicated unsolved mysteries all along. Therefore, it became sort of a common practice to refer to the observable universe, that is made of physical matter, when speaking of the universe, and that it is finite.

    If you research this topic, you will find a vast amount of different opinions, and they pretty much revolve around this question: How can the universe have a limit in spatial size, and what is beyond that limit?!

    Many people think that it does not make sense for the universe to have a limit in spatial size, some think it is flat, some think it is spherical, and so on and so forth, but no one knows for sure.

    I myself is of the opinion that the universe is finite in material (which is already established by science as aforementioned) and in spatial size since I believe the Origin of it is outside its beginning, and that Origin is "holding it in suspension." I believe that Origin is metaphysical (non-physical) and non-temporal (without beginning nor end,) that is Eternal.

    I believe that Origin, aka First Cause, is God Almighty, the Father, Son (Lord Jesus Christ) and Holy Spirit.

    Here is a recent historical perspective of the complexity of the subject matter:
    http://www.todayinsci.com/E/Einstein_Albert/EinsteinsUniverse-NYT2Feb1921.htm

    August 22, 2013 at 10:48 am |
    • In Santa we trust

      Vic, You have not presented any evidence that a first cause is required nor that that first cause is your god.

      August 22, 2013 at 10:53 am |
      • JimK57

        There is no proof to be offered. Why do athiests keep asking for proof?

        August 22, 2013 at 12:48 pm |
        • I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that

          Who or what is an athiest?

          August 22, 2013 at 12:49 pm |
        • Johnny

          Because believing things that there is no proof of seems pretty dumb. Is there anything else you believe to be true without any proof?

          August 22, 2013 at 1:34 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          Jim,

          What other baseless claims do you believe without evidence and why do you think it is a good idea to do so?

          August 22, 2013 at 2:05 pm |
        • skytag

          "Why do athiests keep asking for proof?"

          To remind believers that nothing they believe is supported by any evidence. If we don't remind them regularly they slip further and further into their delusion in which belief is proof.

          August 22, 2013 at 5:05 pm |
        • sam stone

          it is a given. of course there is no evidence for gods. why would there be? they don't exist. kind of obvious everything is here and it just got here one day. out of nothing, or everything always was. no reason even to question anything. life is. ain't no big deal.
          the main thing is to service me with spray in your face on your knees with a 12 gauge, duh!

          September 19, 2013 at 12:33 am |
    • chubby rain

      You presented no actually scientific evidence. You stated a hypothesis and just leapt to "I believe ... God."

      August 22, 2013 at 10:54 am |
    • bostontola

      Vic,
      You asserting science is like Brittany Spears asserting medical ethics principles. As Wolfgang Pauli would say, "It is not only not right, it is not even wrong," or "Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!" in Pauli's native German.

      August 22, 2013 at 11:07 am |
    • I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that

      Even if all that wasn't absolute hooey, how does a first cause = Yahweh?

      August 22, 2013 at 11:12 am |
      • bostontola

        Who says there has to be a first cause? Who says "first" even has meaning when time and space are warped in a singularity?

        August 22, 2013 at 11:18 am |
        • I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that

          Why address that post to me? I never implied otherwise.

          August 22, 2013 at 11:24 am |
        • bostontola

          It wasn't intended towards you, it was adding to your question. Sorry if you interpreted it that way.

          August 22, 2013 at 11:37 am |
        • I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that

          Sorry, I thought it was addressed to me.

          August 22, 2013 at 11:42 am |
      • Vic

        That's the way to go Dave! That is one of the tenets of "Individual Freedom;" you pose your point of view, then you let the "individual" decide and choose for him/herself instead of deciding for him/her by blocking and deleting comments!

        At "Free Will" you start by questioning then investigating to find and discern the "Truth."

        I myself questioned and investigated the main, as well as some details, tenets of all major "ideologies" and found and discerned through my human experience that it is evident to me that there is a God (logical deduction by reason and detection by sentience) and man (human) can not redeem himself on his own. That's how I discerned that Jesus (Yahweh Who Saves, aka Savior God) Christ (Messiah, aka Anointed One) is the "Truth" and came to "believe."

        August 22, 2013 at 11:29 am |
        • bostontola

          Who says man has free will?

          August 22, 2013 at 11:37 am |
        • I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that

          That's not really an explanation. What's a major ideology? There are thousands of religions in the world, why stop researching after five or six? What personal experiences? I'm sentient, why can't I perceive your god?

          Also, how is there free will with an omnipotent god? If there is an omnipotent god, he predetermines everything. On the subject, if Yahweh creates people knowing exactly which transgressions they will commit, why doesn't he fix them? Does he do it purposefully just to have some bodies to burn?

          August 22, 2013 at 11:41 am |
        • In Santa we trust

          But Vic, logical deduction by reason and detection by sentience needs to be accessible to all else it's just your imagination. You have nothing to show this is anything more than your imagination.

          August 22, 2013 at 11:42 am |
        • Vic

          @bostontola "..."

          If you don't have "Free Will," how can you be liable to/held accountable by the "Law of the land?!"

          @Dave "..."

          God is "Sovereign," and we don't know everything about His "Sovereign" and "Divine" "Will," "Wisdom" and "Justice," and how that totally works.

          August 22, 2013 at 11:53 am |
        • Vic

          @I S w t "..."

          "Sentience," as well as "Conscience, Basic Instincts, Intuition, and Common Sense," are "built-in" in all of us! Keep on trying with an open heart and mind.

          August 22, 2013 at 11:56 am |
        • I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that

          How do you know Yahweh is 'sovereign'? Who'd want to live in a celestial fiefdom? Anyway, that completely ignores the question. Why does Yahweh allow faulty goods on to the market? Why doesn't he employ a more stringent quality control.

          And how can free will exist with an omnipotent, omniscient god if everything is predetermined?

          August 22, 2013 at 11:59 am |
        • I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that

          An open heart would require immediate cardiovascular attention.

          August 22, 2013 at 12:00 pm |
        • In Santa we trust

          Vic, I did not mean that sentience should be available to all, but in the context of your original post that whatever is to be detected by sentience should be there for all not just what is in your imagination.

          August 22, 2013 at 12:01 pm |
        • Just sayin

          Yahweh was the war god in the Canaanite pantheon, before he was Jesus (Yahweh Who Saves, aka Savior God) Christ (Messiah, aka Anointed One)

          Just sayin

          August 22, 2013 at 12:03 pm |
        • skytag

          @Vic: "At "Free Will" you start by questioning then investigating to find and discern the "Truth.""

          You poor, simple, brainwashed creature, still writing truth capitalized and in quotes as if that adds some sense of mysticism to it, another brainwashing reinforcement technique.

          I'm not convinced we have free will. Every choice we make is the result of a process that takes place in our brains in which values, perceptions, our understanding of relevant issues, past experiences are examined and weighed. How your brain processes a specific set of information is going to be different than how someone else's brain will process it.

          The process makes it appear that we have free will, but in reality our choices are determined by a very sophisticated program that runs in our brains. We have no control over this process.

          August 22, 2013 at 12:32 pm |
        • skytag

          "I myself questioned and investigated the main, as well as some details, tenets of all major "ideologies" and found and discerned through my human experience that it is evident to me that there is a God (logical deduction by reason and detection by sentience) and man (human) can not redeem himself on his own."

          What a load of malarkey. You decided to believe some things. As always, all you have is the reasoning of someone who isn't very bright and has a poor command of logic.

          Most of your "logic" suffers from a common, but fatal flaw. Your single most common argument is that if no one has a better answer for something your answer must be right, even if there is no evidence to support your answer. Not only is that not valid logic, given how many well known examples there are of that reasoning leading people to believe things that were wrong it's really dumb logic. Relying on logic that has been repeatedly shown to lead to false conclusions is either really dumb or a sign that justifying a desired conclusion is more important to you than finding the truth.

          August 22, 2013 at 12:46 pm |
        • JimK57

          I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that
          Also, how is there free will with an omnipotent god? If there is an omnipotent god, he predetermines everything.
          No, he knows everything because he is not limited by time and space. You determine your own path.

          On the subject, if Yahweh creates people knowing exactly which transgressions they will commit, why doesn't he fix them?
          See answer above.

          Does he do it purposefully just to have some bodies to burn?
          There is no hell.

          August 22, 2013 at 1:08 pm |
        • sam stone

          if god knows what we are going to do before we do it, how is there free will?

          August 22, 2013 at 1:15 pm |
        • Just the Facts Ma'am...

          "he knows everything because he is not limited by time and space. You determine your own path."

          How can something that knows everything already regret someting?

          "5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” Genesis 6:5-7

          August 22, 2013 at 1:17 pm |
        • JimK57

          sam stone
          God knows, you do not know. Freewill.

          August 22, 2013 at 1:17 pm |
        • I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that

          If Yahweh created me, how is my path not determined? He is omnipotence and omniscient, he knows everything I will do as a result of him creating me. If that's not absolute determinism, I don't know what is.

          As for Hell, most Abrahamic theologians would disagree with that assertion.

          August 22, 2013 at 1:18 pm |
        • JimK57

          Just the Facts Ma'am...
          I am not a big follower of the bible. It was written by men.

          August 22, 2013 at 1:19 pm |
        • JimK57

          I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that
          If you do not know the future you can make your own decisions. Freewill.

          Maybe those religions are wrong.

          August 22, 2013 at 1:21 pm |
        • I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that

          It's nothing to do with me knowing the future. Yahweh knows the future (or your deity of preference) and he programmed my mind to be the way it is. Every decision I make is a direct result of Yahweh's programming. That's the ultimate determinism.

          August 22, 2013 at 1:25 pm |
        • Just the Facts Ma'am...

          "I am not a big follower of the bible. It was written by men." Now that is something I can agree with you on. So did you make up your own version of God to worship then or base it off some other writing or experience?

          August 22, 2013 at 1:28 pm |
        • JimK57

          He did not program your brain anymore then your parents did by conceiving you. Once you are born everything is your choice.

          Think of it this way: If I asked you to push button A or B and while you were thinking about it I went forward in time with my time machine. I saw you push B then went back in time. Do you now lack free will because I know what button you will push?

          August 22, 2013 at 1:30 pm |
        • JimK57

          I consider myself agnostic-theist after an NDE and alot of research.

          August 22, 2013 at 1:32 pm |
        • I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that

          JimK57

          My parents aren't omnipotent deities. Unless you're implying that your god didn't create us?

          As for your analogy, you didn't create me.

          August 22, 2013 at 1:33 pm |
        • Just the Facts Ma'am...

          "If I asked you to push button A or B and while you were thinking about it I went forward in time with my time machine. I saw you push B then went back in time. Do you now lack free will because I know what button you will push?"

          No, you just proved you are a d i c k for asking in the first place if you already knew. And why wouldn't you take me along on the time travel trip? Why go back at all if you know whats going to happen throughout history? Would that not be the most boring program ever? Why would God spend any time watching us or listening to prayers if he already heard them all before you said them?

          August 22, 2013 at 1:33 pm |
        • I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that

          Wait, if you consider yourself an agnostic theist, why are you even discussing the characteristics of your creator deity? Don't you guys think god/s is/are unknowable?

          August 22, 2013 at 1:35 pm |
        • Johnny

          What Jim describes is not actually free will but the illusion of free will. Unless you can choose something god didn't know you were going to choose you don't have free will.

          August 22, 2013 at 1:36 pm |
        • JimK57

          Just the Facts Ma'am...
          Maybe a better way to put it is that he knows the result of all of your choices.

          Don't try to think of god in human terms. Our brains are far to limited to understand.

          August 22, 2013 at 1:38 pm |
        • I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that

          Speak for yourself.

          August 22, 2013 at 1:41 pm |
        • Just the Facts Ma'am...

          If he already knows all our choices, then what exactly was his purpose for creating us? If that is what you are saying, that he is our creator. I mean, if you think about an author who writes a book, even though he may know its conclusion, his purpose was to let others read it who do not. What would Gods purpose for us be if there was not something or someone to watch and be surprised at our conduct? Are we just playthings for his newborn God child, something to distract it while it slumbers in it's crib?

          If there is a God who created us, then he/it would have a purpose for doing so, and not only creating us but creating us slowly over time with virtually no guidance allowing billions to suffer and die never knowing their creator, and that is all according to plan because he knew that would happen, but did it anyway.

          August 22, 2013 at 1:45 pm |
        • Just the Facts Ma'am...

          If it was an NDE that led you to your current religion, I suggest you seriously reconsider. If you believe anything your brain shows you while it's under duress then you need to talk to those who have been using hallucinogens because they can tell you some stories. I myself had a bad shroom trip once and saw some swords and shields floating off the wall covered in blood (i'm sure being in a dark room with medieval shields and swords on the wall from a renaissance fair didn't help). Our brains can do some amazing things when given the right (or wrong) input, be in kinetic or chemical.

          Even the chemicals our bodies produce have an enormous effect on our brains and how we view the world even to the point of changing our morality and behavior. Check out this video on the chemical oxytocin that our brains produce. It shows how a person can behave more ethically after getting a hit of a drug our bodies produce on stimulus.

          http://www.wimp.com/trustmorality/

          Interesting to note also that 5% of the population do not produce oxytocin on stimulus and are likely the cause of a vast majority of the worlds problems.

          August 22, 2013 at 1:58 pm |
        • sam stone

          jim: that is a nonsense answer. if god knows what i am going to do before i do it, and god cannot be wrong, there is no free will.

          August 22, 2013 at 2:19 pm |
        • skytag

          @JimK57: "God knows, you do not know. Freewill."

          No god, no free will, just a very sophisticated program running in your brain making your choices.

          August 22, 2013 at 4:49 pm |
        • skytag

          @JimK57: "If there is an omnipotent god, he predetermines everything."

          That doesn't follow from the definition of omnipotent. Omnipotent means all-powerful. It doesn't mean using that unlimited power to control everything.

          August 22, 2013 at 8:04 pm |
    • skytag

      The Cliff Notes version: "I decided that whenever science can't explain something I'm going to choose to believe God did it."

      It doesn't phase Vic a bit that his reasoning has a long history of leading men to believe things we now know aren't true. That's because Vic doesn't care about the truth. He only cares about finding excuses for clinging to his beliefs.

      Now that several people have pointed out the fact that none of this exposition proves anything Vic will almost certainly not respond. He'll be too busy chanting some canned phrases known to strengthen Christian brainwashing...I mean Christian faith.

      August 22, 2013 at 11:42 am |
    • skytag

      I don't know if this has ever occurred to you or not, but your first cause argument says nothing about anything after the very beginning of the universe.

      In particular, it says nothing your Creator of the Universe's (CotU's) relationship with man today. Even if the universe was created by a sentient being 14 billion years ago, that's not evidence said being has ever even noticed what's transpiring on this one planet orbiting one of a trillion trillion stars that came out if his creative effort.

      What if your CotU is scooting about the universe watching stars explode, galaxies swirl, and black holes form, wholly unaware that there are some delusional sentient beings on their knees here talking to themselves?

      I'm pretty sure that if I were a being with the power to create a universe with a trillion trillion stars in it from scratch there's no way I'd spend my time listening to insignificant creatures whining about their mundane little lives or obsessing over who they are having sex with.

      August 22, 2013 at 12:07 pm |
    • ME II

      @Vic,
      "Science also posits that the slightest motion in the universe (e.g. expansion, contraction, etc.) is change, and change means that the universe had a "beginning" since it is expanding, hence is temporal, hence is finite."

      "Change" does not by itself indicate finite. A overall positive expansion rate likely indicates "past incompleteness", but not "change" by itself. Although, I'm not sure an overall positive expansion has been established.

      August 22, 2013 at 12:33 pm |
    • Jake

      Change does not imply a beginning. Nature is replete with cycles, which have no beginning or end. Your premise of change equals a beginning or origin is an illogical step. Saying and origin implies a god is another. Then you still have the issue of why your god. Simply put, science has proven there is no god.

      August 22, 2013 at 1:25 pm |
      • lamelionheart

        Sired Jake...

        The only thing that science has proven is that there are unknowns to be ever uncovered thru thoughtful conjectures that either cannot be conditionally proven nor intellectually understood by the vast majorities still yet being but infantile in their mental upbringing ways...

        For instance...

        Is another way of perceiving Outer Space saying that it is Spatially Infinite Nothingness or "SIN" for short..? How would one then rationalize that in order for SIN to be fully taken advantage of there would have to be an unlimited amounts of big bangs giving birth to equally unknown amounts of big bang universes in order to quench this SIN's thirst for wanting ever more amounts of big bang universes to forever be born..?

        August 22, 2013 at 2:04 pm |
  18. Joel

    I don't know about others, but what I was looking for was a closer relationship with God. Since I received Yeshua as Messiah and Savior I have certainly experienced that. There is so much confusion today concerning spiritual things, that many just don't know where to turn. We need to turn to Yeshua/Jesus if we want to have peace with God. He is indeed our way to the Father. May you come to know God's peace through faith in His Son, who gave Himself for us. Shalom

    August 21, 2013 at 10:43 pm |
    • sam stone

      why do you feel it is moral to allow someone else to take the punishment you feel you deserve?

      August 21, 2013 at 10:58 pm |
      • Joel

        Sam, who am I to declare what is moral or immoral? I leave that to God who alone is worhy to decide these things. After the fall of man, God, in His great love for us made a provision for our salvation. There is only One provision, Yeshua the Lamb of God. Shalom

        August 22, 2013 at 4:54 pm |
        • sam stone

          i guess i don't understand the belief that we need "salvation"

          August 22, 2013 at 6:36 pm |
        • sam stone

          you claim man has fallen......

          this seems like entrapment

          August 22, 2013 at 6:38 pm |
        • skytag

          Typical religious claptrap. Morality has always been relative, determined by individual societies. What is moral in one place and time may not be considered more in another place and time. Absolute morality is a myth.

          August 22, 2013 at 8:07 pm |
        • Reality

          Morals and ethical conduct came early in our human history. Check for example the Code of Hammurabi and the Egyptian Book of the Dead. Most if not all of these codes of conduct are embodied in today's national const-itutions and laws.

          To wit:

          " I have not sinned against anyone. I have not mistreated people. I have not done evil instead of righteousness . . .
          I have not reviled the God.
          I have not laid violent hands on an orphan.
          I have not done what the God abominates . . .
          I have not killed; I have not turned anyone over to a killer.
          I have not caused anyone's suffering . . .
          I have not copulated (illicitly); I have not been unchaste.
          I have not increased nor diminished the measure, I have not diminished the palm; I have not encroached upon the fields.
          I have not added to the balance weights; I have not tempered with the plumb bob of the balance.
          I have not taken milk from a child's mouth; I have not driven small cattle from their herbage...
          I have not stopped (the flow of) water in its seasons; I have not built a dam against flowing water.
          I have not quenched a fire in its time . . .
          I have not kept cattle away from the God's property.
          I have not blocked the God at his processions."

          "The Book of the Dead was written circa 1800 BCE. 2 The Schofield Reference Bible estimates that the Hebrew Exodus from Egypt and the provision of the Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai occurred in 1491 BCE., some three centuries later. Many religious liberals, historians, and secularists have concluded that the Hebrew Scripture's Ten Commandments were based on this earlier docu-ment, rather than vice-versa."

          August 22, 2013 at 11:43 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      And why do you think it is moral to reward and punish people based on belief or non-belief?

      August 21, 2013 at 11:29 pm |
      • Joel

        Cheesy, the same response as above that I gave to Sam. Shalom

        August 22, 2013 at 4:56 pm |
        • sam stone

          apparently, god thinks it is moral to punish people for non-belief

          this sort of paints god as vindictive pr1ck

          August 22, 2013 at 6:40 pm |
    • Ken

      As someone who doesn't believe that God actually exists, I'm really not interested in getting closer to him.

      August 22, 2013 at 12:19 am |
      • hharri

        Who could possibly care what you believe?

        August 22, 2013 at 11:11 am |
        • truthprevails1

          People who are capable of living without a god care what Ken has to say. We get that every time you hear that your god is fake you get your feelings hurt. Suck it up buttercup, the whole blog knows you're bat shit crazy!

          August 22, 2013 at 11:16 am |
        • hharri

          You c't live without god, numb nuts. Are you out of your mind?

          August 22, 2013 at 11:24 am |
        • skytag

          "the whole blog knows you're bat shit crazy!"

          So true. So very, very true.

          August 22, 2013 at 12:09 pm |
        • Stephen Jones

          I live without your God as easily as I live without the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus. We all live without mythological beings watching over us...there is just no such thing.

          August 22, 2013 at 6:21 pm |
        • hharri

          honey, you can't take a breath w/o my god. hate to break it to you. or, prove you need no god and make your own oxygen, food, etc., from nothing. where did it all come from? o jeez, i don't know george. which way did he go? uh huh. uh huh. o i wish i were a baby bumble bee, then my muther be so proud a me

          August 26, 2013 at 1:33 am |
    • Athy

      Joel, why do you believe in such a preposterous concept? Would you still believe this if you hadn't read it or no one told you about it?

      August 22, 2013 at 1:47 am |
      • Joel

        Athy, I know His peace. I know what it was like before I received Yeshua, and I know what I have now. God is real, and Yeshua is His Son and Savior of the world. Do you have peace?

        August 22, 2013 at 4:58 pm |
  19. Dennis Lurvey

    today a person can go to the internet and google "proof jesus lived" and find there isnt any, or how the universe was formed or does prayer work; and find a variety of answers, some of them different then what they find in church. when you get away from family pressure, peer pressure, and the church telling you not to question the bible, people can find more probable answers. its a process, destabilizing, takes a lot of nerve. but its happening. more people are atheists then we will ever know because they cant speak freely. my question to xtians is, if your religion is so amazing why are ppl not lining up at the door to join??

    August 21, 2013 at 8:05 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      The flesh, the world, and the devil.

      August 21, 2013 at 8:47 pm |
      • Bulbous Taint

        Blah blah blah blah blah blah blaaaaah blah, blah blah bluh bluh blah blar.

        And that's all I have to say about the stupidity you posted.

        August 21, 2013 at 8:58 pm |
      • skytag

        Two of those are real and one is a fictional character the authors of Christianity made up so their followers have a supernatural entity to blame when people do bad things.

        August 21, 2013 at 9:20 pm |
      • sam stone

        seriously, robert? is that all you have? let's review, you were born into the religion of your family, and have stuck with it. you have never seriously considered the possibility that there is no god. how are we to take your words as anything but a hoodwinked parrot?

        August 21, 2013 at 9:31 pm |
        • master ying

          I grew up in a non religious family. First memory is being perplexed by infinity likemany of us here. Read everything scientific and religious. To this day I stand on the line between atheism and gnosis. There is no easily accessible truth in religion. There is however truth to be found in spiritual practice. I dont mean faith based practice, I mean a variety of meditations both mental and physical. The practical Daoist method easily assimilates all scientific phenomena into its ancient understanding. This is because it is based on actual observation and the consequential insight. Empirical meditative method. Many will wonder why cant I observe this readily? I would ask why cant you detect a level 1 murmur through auscultation? Why cant I detect an improperly installed clutch spring through auscultation? Because I don't have the training or the experience to observe what an experienced cardiologist or mechanic can do automatically. The truth is answered through work. Atheist and religious ideology are the biggest hurdles. Daoist first described a closed circulatory system, they described biological radiation, heart specific magnetism, beta alpha and mu alpha variants, nerve conduction and mapping. Many will dispute this but it is in plain site, they called it an aura, heart qi, third eye and crown qi, stillness qi, meridians. The discrepancies come from an incomplete understanding on both sides.
          This isnt really directed at you, just had a thought.

          August 22, 2013 at 9:22 pm |
      • Run of the Mouth hharri

        Dearest Robert,

        It is such a convenience and must feel extra special to be able to blame some other ent.ity instead of the personal failures of Christian leadership and the pew warmers. The lack of transformed lives should be the first suspect. (And clear evidence that your god doesn't exist).

        "The Devil made me do it" is one of the clearest examples of the Christian and his lack of integrity.

        Tell me, Robert, did the Devil make them molest those kids at that Church in Tulsa?

        August 21, 2013 at 10:01 pm |
        • Robert Brown

          Transformed, drunks – sober, liars – honest, lost – found, happens everyday.

          Those molesters, yes the devil & the flesh.

          August 21, 2013 at 10:27 pm |
        • Run of the Mouth hharri

          Robert, Robert, Robert....

          You, too? Incapable of taking responsibility...such a peculiar level of dishonesty that is the Body of Christ.

          I know...it has more to do with your cognitive disonance...can't bear to consider that your god just simply doesn't exist...the lack of transformed lives confirms it.

          Sad that the blood of Jesus can't do nothin' 'bout the flesh and the Devil....

          August 21, 2013 at 10:39 pm |
        • skytag

          @Robert Brown: "Transformed, drunks – sober, liars – honest, lost – found, happens everyday."

          And the reverse as well.

          "Those molesters, yes the devil & the flesh."

          Nope, no devil. No devil, no God, just some human beings with defective brains.

          Look, Robert, people just like you used to claim seizures were caused by demonic possessions and disease was caused by evil spirits. You're still stuck in that mindset, blaming an evil spirit when the cause is no more supernatural than a personality disorder of form of mental illness.

          August 21, 2013 at 10:52 pm |
      • Run of the Mouth hharri

        Dearest Robert,

        It is such a convenience and must feel extra special to be able to blame some other ent.ity instead of the personal failures of Christian leadership and the pew warmers. The lack of transformed lives should be the first suspect. (And clear evidence that your god doesn't exist).

        "The Devil made me do it" is one of the clearest examples of the Christian lack of integrity.

        Tell me, Robert, did the Devil make them mo.lest those kids at that Church in Tulsa?

        August 21, 2013 at 10:02 pm |
    • Joshua

      @Dennis

      I think the stmt there isn't any proof Jesus lived on the net is pretty inaccurate. In my view the reason people don't become Christian more readily is that its not an easy path.

      August 21, 2013 at 9:09 pm |
      • Bulbous Taint

        Jesus never existed. The only so called "evidence" is mentions of him in the bible that contradict each other, and forgeries written into Josephus' records. ALL of which were written decades after his alleged death. The bible has been proven false.

        Jesus did not exist. Period.

        August 21, 2013 at 9:18 pm |
        • Just the Facts Ma'am...

          A divine Jesus never existed. The only so called "evidence" is mentions of him in the bible that contradict each other, and forgeries written into Josephus' records, on top of his description of Hercules as a real person as well. ALL of which were written decades after a simple humans alleged death. The bible has been proven false.

          A divine Jesus did not exist. Period.

          August 22, 2013 at 9:45 am |
      • skytag

        Get a clue. Christianity isn't a religion as much it's a religious smorgasbord, ideal for the church-shopping crowd, people who want all the benefits of the core narrative but want to be able to pick and choose how and to what extent they have to incorporate it into their daily lives. Some Christians are part of no denomination whatsoever, while others embrace variants requiring considerable sacrifice, such as the Amish. This ability to pick and choose is a major reason Christianity is so popular, this and the fact that it offers so much while asking so little. The path is as easy or hard as you want it to be.

        August 21, 2013 at 9:23 pm |
    • Vic

      The proof that Jesus Christ existed is simply "Recorded History" that has been handed down from generation to generation even though it has some inaccuracies in it. We do not have any proof that George Washington, John Adams, etc., ever existed other than "Recorded History" that has been handed down from one generation to the other.

      The Holy Bible is "Recorded History" that has been handed down from generation to generation, even though it very well could have scribal, translational and interpretational errors regarding certain details but the general narrative is clear enough. The "Dead Sea Scrolls" have been proven by "Modern Science" to have been written around the first and second centuries after Jesus Christ

      Quick Reference:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_scrolls#Physical_characteristics

      August 21, 2013 at 9:37 pm |
      • sam stone

        the thing is, vic, that we have "Recorded History" from Washington, Jefferson, Adams et al via their contemporaries. not verbal history which was handed down to those who wrote the stories

        August 21, 2013 at 10:34 pm |
        • skytag

          Also, the histories of Washington et al were not written to convince people of supernatural events or to live their lives according to any code.

          August 21, 2013 at 10:59 pm |
      • skytag

        The record of which you speak cannot be verified as being anything more than a collection of fairytales. Comparing Jesus to George Washington is just another one of your failed attempts at logic.

        The biggest flaw in your comparison is that everything George Washington is credited with having done is something we know a human being can do. The issue with Jesus is not whether or not he existed, but whether there is any truth to the Bible's claims of a divine nature with respect to him.

        There is no account of George Washington walking on water or bringing the dead back to life, so at least the historical claims about Washington are consistent with our life experiences. The problem with the Bible is that nothing in it of a supernatural nature can be verified, nor is is consistent with what we experience in our lives, and at times it's inconsistent with scientific knowledge.

        August 21, 2013 at 10:36 pm |
        • Vic

          That is quibbling! I never compared the Lord Jesus Christ to anyone. I brought to light the classical method of handing down information from generation to generation!

          August 21, 2013 at 10:53 pm |
        • skytag

          @Vic: "I brought to light the classical method of handing down information from generation to generation!"

          Fairytales, myths, and legends are handed down from generation to generation the same way too. For an ancient historical account to be considered reliable it has to be corroborated by independent contemporaries. The accounts in the Bible related to spiritual/supernatural events fail that test.

          Jesus the teacher/social reformer/whatever may have been a real person and that might be supported by other contemporary accounts, but there is nothing supporting any claims of his divinity, virgin birth, or miracles he performed except what the Bible contains.

          August 22, 2013 at 1:32 am |
      • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

        Vic,

        There are parts of the Bible that are true. The reason we know some parts are true is because there are seperate accounts of people, places and events that can be cross referenced to cooborate such information. None of the supernatural claims in the bible can be cooborated outside of the bible. There is no reason to think any of those claims are anything more than complete nonsense. You are reaching pretty far with your analogy and I don't find that very honest.

        August 21, 2013 at 10:38 pm |
        • skytag

          "You are reaching pretty far with your analogy and I don't find that very honest."

          I never sense that Vic is being dishonest. I think he actually believes these arguments are based on valid logic. Even when there are glaring holes in his arguments I just don't think he's bright enough to see them. Remember, Vic is not interested in the truth, he's interested in remaining convinced that what he believes in plausible. As long as it's even remotely plausible he will continue to cling to his beliefs. When you have such a strong agenda it's easy to overlook flaws in arguments that seem to support your position.

          August 21, 2013 at 10:47 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          Skytag,

          I am not questioning his belief that Jesus is as real as George Washington. I am questioning that his comparison of historical evidence of George Washington and the events surrounding him, is on the same level with the evidence of the supernatural claims of the Bible. I think he does know that that is a dishonest analogy.

          August 21, 2013 at 11:25 pm |
        • skytag

          @Blessed are the Cheesemakers: "I am questioning that his comparison of historical evidence of George Washington and the events surrounding him, is on the same level with the evidence of the supernatural claims of the Bible. I think he does know that that is a dishonest analogy."

          I think he's too desperate to keep reality at bay and too much of a simpleton to see the difference. He believes he cares about the truth, but he really doesn't. What he really cares about is maintaining his faith. Nothing is more important to him. He doesn't need proof it's true, he only needs to believe there's no proof it's false, which is why his arguments tend to be arguments for what he believes being plausible, as opposed to trying to argue that what he believes is true.

          Of course given the design of the Christian God and the fact that nothing he posits need be provable or testable, anything is plausible in Vic's world.

          A good example of how this works is the story of Noah's ark. When the believability of the ark story is challenged Christians invariably respond with something along the lines of "Well, God could have blah, blah, blah." God could have done this. God could have done that. It's all pure speculation as none of these proposed explanations is mentioned in the Bible, and there's no evidence for any of them. None of that matters to people like Vic. As long as their imaginations can come up with something that would address the concern, they're good to go because in their minds they have a plausible way out of an apparent problem with the story.

          August 22, 2013 at 1:55 am |
        • lol?? Pithiest, YES!!

          skintaqg sayz about another poster,
          "..............I think he's too desperate to keep reality at bay and too much of a simpleton to see the difference. ........"

          The A&A's are quite desperate. That's why they need a Sodomite mob. If yer really searching fer truth you better get crackin'. You don't wanna end up in the drink that keeps on burnin'! Even the Egyptians believed the Hebrews on that doctrine.

          August 22, 2013 at 4:00 pm |
        • Stephen Jones

          lol?? Pithiest, YES!! I,

          If you are a bad boy Santa will put coal in your stocking. Are you worried you might get coal for Xmas? Of course not because you know Santa is a childhood myth. Conversely A&A's don not get worried when threatened with eternal damnation.

          August 22, 2013 at 6:44 pm |
    • Bill Deacon

      Well, if the internet says so, it must be true right? I read that on the internet.

      August 22, 2013 at 10:53 am |
      • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

        Well, if the Bible, Catholic Church says so, it must be true right? I read that in the Bible and heard that from the Pope.

        August 22, 2013 at 2:09 pm |
        • Bill Deacon

          Nothing gets by you cheesy does it?

          August 23, 2013 at 9:46 am |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          That is my Catholic education.

          August 23, 2013 at 11:19 pm |
  20. Carlin

    While I would guess that some on here are actually here to have enlightened debates, what are the rest of you doing on here?
    There are many that demand to be shown proof of this or that but why should they provide you with anything? I understand if someone comes on here and declares a positive that you may reasonably come back and ask for evidence. But that's not what a lot of you do. You come on here and demand proof to things not even declared yet and would do no harm to you anyway.
    Honestly, does this need simply a "I'm right and you're wrong" mentality among you?

    August 21, 2013 at 3:53 pm |
    • Vic

      You're wrong.

      August 22, 2013 at 10:10 am |
      • Vic

        Obviously, this one is masquerading as me!

        August 22, 2013 at 10:28 am |
    • observer

      Mirosal

      birdus brainus "The "New Testament" was not written as a testament. It was complied over 200 years later at the Council of Nicea by a panel, and they decided which letters to use and which to discard. The people who wrote those letters had NO idea that their written rants would ever be used or thought of as any kind of "holy" scripture. They were just the meandering ramblings of a few delusional people writing to persuade others to join in their delusion."

      by holly u got it! sam stone (i like the rumps of felines and rping them in front of their retarded children

      August 27, 2013 at 8:41 am |
      • midwest rail

        When you have no point to make, steal someone else's name and engage in obfuscation, right faith ?

        August 27, 2013 at 8:48 am |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.