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September 14th, 2013
08:01 AM ET
Hey atheists, let’s make a deal
(CNN) - Famed atheist Richard Dawkins has been rightfully criticized this week for saying the “mild pedophilia” he and other English children experienced in the 1950s “didn’t cause any lasting harm.” This comes after an August tweet in which Dawkins declared that “all the world’s Muslims have fewer Nobel Prizes than Trinity College, Cambridge. They did great things in the Middle Ages, though.” Dawkins is known for pushing his provocative rhetorical style too far, providing ample ammunition for his critics, and already I’ve seen my fellow Christians seize the opportunity to rail against the evils of atheism. As tempting as it is to classify Dawkins’ views as representative of all atheists, I can’t bring myself to do it. I can’t bring myself to do it because I know just how frustrating and unfair it is when atheists point to the most extreme, vitriolic voices within Christianity and proclaim that they are representative of the whole. So, atheists, I say we make a deal: How about we Christians agree not to throw this latest Richard Dawkins thing in your face and you atheists agree not to throw the next Pat Robertson thing in ours? Now I’m not saying we just let these destructive words and actions go—not at all. It’s important for both believers and atheists to decry irresponsible views and hateful rhetoric, especially from within our own communities. (Believe me. There are plenty of Christians who raise hell every time Robertson says something homophobic or a celebrity pastor somewhere says something misogynistic.) READ MORE: Why millennials are leaving the church But what if we resist the urge to use the latest celebrity gaffe as an excuse to paint one another with broad brushes? What if, instead of engaging the ideas of the most extreme and irrational Christians and atheists, we engaged the ideas of the most reasonable, the most charitable, the most respectful and respected? Only then can we avoid these shallow ad hominem attacks and instead engage in substantive debates that bring our true differences and our true commonalities to light. It’s harder to go this route, and it takes more work and patience, but I’m convinced that both Christians and atheists are interested in the truth and in searching for it with integrity, without taking the easy way out. Pope Francis took a step in that direction this week with a letter in a Rome newspaper responding directly to questions posed by its atheist director and inviting respectful open dialog between nonbelievers and Christians. READ MORE: Why millennials need the church So, yes, Richard Dawkins is an atheist. But so are authors Greg Epstein and Susan Jacoby. So is my friend and fellow blogger Hemant Mehta. So is Sir Ian McKellen. So is ethicist Peter Singer, who may or may not be the best example. And yes, Pat Robertson is a Christian. But so is Nelson Mandela. So is acclaimed geneticist Francis Collins. So is Nobel Peace Prize winner Leymah Gbowee. So is Barack Obama. So is Stephen Colbert. And I'm willing to bet that the same collective groan emitted by millions of Christians each time Pat Robertson says something embarrassing on TV sounds a lot like the collective groan emitted by millions of atheists when Richard Dawkins rants on Twitter. Still, in the end, it’s not about who has the most charismatic or generous personalities in their roster, nor about who has the most “crazies.” It’s about the truth. So let’s talk about the truth, and with the people who most consistently and graciously point us toward it. Rachel Held Evans is the author of "A Year of Biblical Womanhood" and "Evolving in Monkey Town." Evans blogs at rachelheldevans.com, and the views expressed in this column belong to her. soundoff (5,916 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 Next »
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Opinion by Rachel Held Evans, special to CNN
what about this statement?
what about this statement?
and all his disciples fled
Depends – what do you think the author was trying to say?
Hey Rachel, did you read " thinking fast and slow" by Danial Kahnman, a Jewish Nobel prize recipient? You will find much more answers to our need for religion there then a bible could ever provide. And yes, Muslims don't have much Nobel prize resipients, and yes most of their contributions to humanity as a whole were done in the Middle Ages, mostly by preserving Roman and Greek writings which the Christians of the time were destroying.
Truth is the Scriptures don't call for a need for religion, but a need for Christ.
If only Christ told us how important it is to wash hands...I guess he was to busy walking on water
This is like saying that a cookbook doesn't have a recipe for breakfast, but for pancakes.
Christ is a religious figure and this modern day crap about how Christianity has nothing to do with religion is merely an attempt to repackage the religion to people that Christians KNOW are getting fed up with what they are selling. You people have pretty much admitted defeat by dishonestly trying to market your religion in such a way. Just a few decades ago, you were singing "Give me that old time religion!" about your Christian *religion*!
Hell is spending eternity in Heaven, trying to communicate with the souls of miscarried fetuses.
if i don't go to hell, i'll miss all my friends.
plus i want to talk to Gandhi and John Lennon.
The difference is that comparing atheists with each other lacks a common point of reference – lacking a specific belief is not trait that people have in common. I don't have a belief that the eighth digit of my social security number has some spiritual significance. You probably also lack that belief. Does that mean we can be compared?
Comparing Christians is different, though. They apparently all believe in the same God. The God of Pat Robertson is the God of the Westboro Baptist church is the God of Stephen Colbert is the God of Barack Obama is the God of Nelson Mandela is (presumably) the God of you is the God of Terry Jones. You all have this in common: you all believe in a God that you believe is the only God, so comparing that commonality of belief is valid. Are you so much tighter with God that you can define that God better than the folks at Westboro, or Pat Robertson. Pat's God says something, and you say "Oh no He didn't". Your God says something, and Pat says "Oh no He didn't." But it's the same God, right, so you're both right. And you're both wrong.
".................comparing atheists with each other lacks a common point................."
Nah, their common point is being trained by the commies. Bloom did it from the Frankfurt School.
lol – you were born an atheist. Does that mean you were trained by the commies in utero?
What the hell is this article? You want to make a "deal" so that you'll behave in a way that your savior commands you to act in the first place? It might seem unfair to you, but you're supposed to love your enemies whether you get treated in kind or not. If that's too much to ask, you shouldn't have signed up for being a Christian in the first place. If more Christians actually practiced what they preach behavior-wise, it wouldn't even be possible for people to mistake Robertson as being representative of Christianity in the first place.
Also, atheism isn't really a philosophy with a code of dogmas, conduct, preachers, etc. in the way that Christianity is, so to compare the two in such a way creates a false equivalency. Atheism is the default position... a person has to be indoctrinated that they need to believe in a god and all of the other trappings that Christianity has with it.
we are all born atheists.
We are all born direct from the throne of God, tested in life and rewarded with either a wonderful eternity with God or an eternal torment and separation from God. Your choice.
there's no such thing as god, that's silly
you are born flesh and blood of your mother and father.
no need to inject fairy tales into it.
your christian need for an invisible sky fairy is just lazy.
it teaches you to stop questioning and just obey.
why look for the answers? it was magic!
how did the earth form? magic!
how did humans get here? magic!
how did the universe start? magic!
see how lazy that is?
religion teaches people to turn off their cognitive thinking.
Observer – who told you that?
Steve,
Just to keep the record straight, the Observer you are talking to is a so-called Chrisitan that has no problem breaking all kinds of biblical commands by lying by using someone else's name. God is apparently very impressed by people entirely without INTEGRITY and honesty.
typo: should be "Christian"
–religion teaches people to turn off their cognitive thinking.–
I can find people that practice a religion that demonstrate cognitive thinking better than you.
And I don't personally believe in those religions (I'm agnostic). But you don't demonstrate critical thinking very well.
It seems like you are angry and hostile toward others. You might need some personal help.
Got it, Observer. You looked so authentic at first read!
We are born according to God's plan.
then he's a terrible architect considering how many babies are born with mental and physical defects.
Scientist – who told you that?
You can help those unfortunate children.
Or you can be a d@ckh*ad troll and use them to belittle someone you don't like.
In your life: Religious people are not the problem. You are the problem. And you need some help.
and your proof is?
baby intellectuals!
Everybody is born an atheist. Everybody is born without a belief in a god. Over the course of time, there are influential and persuasive factors that will lead them into a state of belief. Most of those start with someone who is also throwing a lot of survival-significant information at them, so when they slip in some pretty significant mythology tied with survival-significant cues – especially the eternal survival cues, the little ones are especially prone to adopt those beliefs, along with the belief that you should look both ways before you cross the street.
So, no, atheists are not "believers in no god" – they have either maintained or reverted to a natural state of not believing in something that other people do.
Excuse Me!!
We Athiests have had religion thrown in our faces ever since the fable began from a goat herder smoking weed.
Now that we are standing up for ourselves and speaking out because we are no longer afraid of being burned alive, tortured, drowned, skinned alive,whipped, thrown into jail, the religious people can't take the truth.
The way I see it, we still have a good 2000 years of speaking up to go before we are close to being even, so don't even ask for a truce.
" I’ve seen my fellow Christians seize the opportunity to rail against the evils of atheism."
So not believing in an evil god is evil?
yeah, we point out that churches hide molesters - they point out that atheists... don't believe in god.
doesn't seem quite equal to me.
I notice that child molestation seems to be unnaturally on your mind no matter what topic comes up. It would seem your fixation isn't as secret or foreign to you as you pretend.
He loves to point out other's flaws (so he doesn't have to look at his own).
so your logic is that if someone brings up how the church hides molesters in their ranks, he must be pro-molestation? lol. you should go work for the church. i'm sure they can use you as a lawyer for the molesters.
He didn't say it was "logic". He said you seem to be fascinated by it.
Like you seem to be fascinated about Christians and God, so you come here all the time.
It is pretty obvious.
Bootyfunk,
As you no doubt has figured out, that comment was from the person without any ITEGRITY that is using my name. They think that the Bible was wrong when it said that God hates lies.
yeah, just responding to the comment, not the handle. no worries.
Simply stated I suspect YOU are the child molester trying unsuccessfully to divert atenttion away from yourself at every opportunity.
And i agree
as do we all
LOL!
i LOVE when christians steal my handle.
it means you got to them. it means they're frustrated. it means they're desperate.
haha.
Maybe it's time we all protested against the liar and reported the libelous comment.
In my experience, and at the risk of sounding maybe a little intolerant, typically the people who bash Christianity and it's precepts are the same ones praying and reading the Bible when nobody is looking. They hide it under their bed at night. Sort of like that person everyone knows who hates gay people...but secretly...
Most people can see right through this sort of stuff and it applies to a majority of people on this board. /
By your logic, every defiant believer defending christianity on this blog actually knows that their god doesn't exist.
Sorry, Journey. It sounds like you are simply talking out of your ass.
Seriously? Why would people who pray and read the Bible bash Christianity? And you say this is "in your experience"? What evidence does your experience include? Intolerant, no, but definitely a ridiculous fabrication.
You have it backwards. Many who attend church and profess to be Christians really don't believe. But they go along with it because to avoid the judgement, condemnation, and negative social consequences that will happen if they don't.
you are could not be more wrong.
Um, Journey... Stereotyping people that are faithless by inferring that they're closet Christians is both ridiculous and inane. Most of the atheists I know, including myself, were raised as Christians of some flavor or another in the USA and found the faith lacking.
Journey, it is "its," not "it's."
Well that counts as the most bizarre comment I've read on the interwebs all... well, maybe not all week, but in the last few days, for sure.
Where on earth do you get the idea that any, let alone most, atheists or agnostics actually believe in a god, let alone the god of the Bible? Do you also believe that all the vegans you know chow down on rare steaks as their midnight snacks? Because that makes about as much sense.
This "deal" sounds like a veiled threat. In fact, there's no need for a deal. Go off on Dawkins all you like. He's just one guy and his opinions are subject to attack and criticism like anyone else's. You seem to think there is an atheism boogeyman out there that paints all Christians with the looney antics of a Robertson. That's just not true of most reasonable atheists.
The best place to find a reasonable atheist is when its in its grave.
christians sure hate facts.
Your Mom is probably a Christian.
she was. i was surprised 3 years ago when she said she doesn't believe any longer. yay mom!
All graves contain atheists
Rocks are atheists.
Rocks are not atheists. To have a belief in or a disbelief in something requires sentience.
......disbelief *of* something......
in before dippy:)
Tsk tsk tsk challenging your imaginary god must take a huge toll on you. You would think that with eternal life on your side you would not be such a wimp.
Maybe I missed it, but what do Dawkins' comments have to do with Christianity or being an atheist? A Christian or an atheist (or any other religious/non-religious person) could have said these things – and I believe many have. How does it represent atheism? Or Christianity?
I think it more represents Dawkins as an idiot, and there are plenty of those on both sides of the debate.
Next time, please try to pick an issue that is germaine to your argument.
His comments are valid and blunt, that doesn't make him an idiot.
Oh, I would say that claiming to speak for others in a public forum that pedophilia did no lasting harm is idiotic. Has he talked to all the other victims he purports to speak for?
Also, Muslims may not have as many Nobels as Trinity College, but do they give out Nobel prizes for being Muslim? Or Christian? Or atheist? It's an irrelevant argument – as is, I submit again, the original article.
You have to read his whole piece. He and his schoolmates had the same experience and that school teacher committed suicide sometime later. He actually talked with his schoolmates about the subject over the years and they discussed that it didn't do any lasting damage from their point of view.
He is simply making the accurate observation that not all forms of child abuse are equally damaging. It's an uncomfortable topic for us, but it's an accurate observation.
Why do you think that Dawkins' comments are so bad? Honestly, I don't see the controversy. So what he experienced as a child didn't destroy his life. Good for him. What is it with this culture and it's need for suffering victims to venerate?
And yes, the Islamic world was a source of advanced science and mathematics until the extremists took over. Wow. Controversy.
Dawkins' statement represents Dawkins opinion .. this written opinion piece implied it represents more.
bbyeah13, it is "germane," not "germaine."
Sad thing is that followers need to label in terms of religious belief (as though atheism is belief). Richard Dawkins is a famed ethologist, evolutionary biologist, and author who happens to be atheist. I agree that extremism on any side is not a good trait .. but when the side is correct, what does being extreme hurt when it does not infringe on others rights, property or person?
Horses?? Your wish is my command.
Just another cycle.
Bush I...........white horse
Clinton..........red horse
Bush II...........black horse
Obama..........pale* horse
*green, silly socies as in greenbacks
you forgot this:
Lolly: The horse's backside.
How 'bout you START by rulin' over yer wifey and gang banger offspring. OOOOOps, the commies and socies say that's EVIL.
As I said earlier:
An all powerful, loving, all knowing God created the universe and all the rules. When some guy He made out of dirt sinned, God held it against everyone who hadn't been born yet. So in order to save us all from the hell He created, He impregnated a married virgin so that he could sacrifice Himself to Himself and form a loophole in a rule He made. He did this because He had to so He could judge us fairly when we die.
How could this not make sense to you?
It makes perfect sense. Just like if we don't worship him for not sending us to hell, he will send us to hell.
start your story with "Once upon a time..." and it'll make perfect sense.
Alias,
Sorry. Totally wrong. Because here is what happened after:
Five hundred years later, this creator realized that the people got it all wrong. Thus he decided to talk to an orphaned shepherd hundreds of miles away, while that guy was hanging out in a cave. A few years later that guy started teaching that the creator had spoken to him and that all people must submit to the creator's decrees, lest they be punished in the afterlife. Simple.
WOW since you put it that way sign me up!
Peter singer is a good example? Peter Singer believes that killing an infant is dissimilar to killing an adult because their cognitive behaviors are not as developed. I don't think there is anything Pat Robertson can say that comes close to that level of immorality. You know you have written something really stupid when both sides think its absolutely ridiculous
Pat agrees with his god that I should spend all eternity in torment because I don't believe in something that's invisible and undetectable. He believes it would be "good," too, because his god does it. That's much worse, don't you think?
Truth has a habit of changing over time. One idea comes up repeatedly in both religious and atheist thought. Treat others with the same respect you want them to treat you. Help others when they need it, because you may need help one day yourself. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. What is hurtful to you, do not do to others. Judge not lest you be judged.
It doesn't sound like it should be all that difficult, but it never seems to happen much, at least on any large scale. Probably because it is more important to most people to convince others of their "truth" and that why you do something is more important that what you do. That, and the fact that people have an unlimited capacity to see any difference between them as a distinction between human and not-human enough to care about.
Prayer changes things
Prayer does? So, if i prayed to a can of soup, it would actually change anything?
Until you know God the only prayer God would answer from you is the sinners prayer of repentance.
Stone idols answer prayers as well as any other god.
That's why, right up front in the ten commandments, your god is so afraid and jealous of stone idols.
Here's how the Bible says God treated children and other living things:
(Gen. 7:21) “And all flesh died that moved on the earth, birds, domestic animals, wild animals, all swarming creatures that swarm on the earth, and ALL HUMAN BEINGS”
Spare the righteous and eradicate the cancer. Compassion in action. Without that corrective measure no one would be here now.
The Bible says that at one point God TORTUROUSLY killed EVERY child, baby and fetus ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH.
My bad, the Bible doesn't say anything about tortuous, just necessary execution of those who would destroy the earth as we know it. Like cutting out a cancer to save the patient.
Ignore fake Observer. He cannot name even ONE SIN commited by all the children, babies, and fetuses that were TORTUROUSLY intentionally drowned by God.
People using others names on here have ZERO integrity. Watch for the phoney's reply.
Unbelief (continuous evil) by a real Observer =one sin.
My bad again no torture involved, immediate execution, blasted to atoms in the twinkling of an eye no time to suffer.
Hmph. I've been praying for you to say something different for over a year now, and yet nothing changes. Same old pithy, pointless phrase. God, where art thou?
The only prayer available to you would be the sinners prayer of repentance.
Your god is your problem. I have nothing to repent to it.
Templeton Foundation Prayer Study .. Short version:
Conclusion:
Prayer had no effect.
But those knowing they were receiving prayer had a HIGHER incidence of complications (59%).
bull sh it
Look up the Templeton Foundation Prayer Study. It was conducted by the Templeton Foundation, a foundation set up to prove religious beliefs .. this one failed and "proved" the opposite. Deny if you like but facts are facts.
I have a deal: How about everyone get of the freakin' internet and stop dredging for every bit of ammo to justify their own view of things by doing things like presuming extremists are the norm of thought systems which they don't agree with? This is a deal I expect few people to actually go with, so I say it wasting my time. But hey, I had a few minutes.
Make that get OFF the Internet. I really need to stop speaking in Typonese (the language of typos).
How about this for a deal?
Both sides start practicing the CONCEPT of the Golden Rule.
Atheists can start being more polite to believers and believers can practice the Golden Rule which is more important than hypocritically picking on gays or pretending that the Bible actually mentions the word "abortion".
AMERICA
One nation under GOD
"An atheist is not a patriot and should not be a citizen of the United States"
President, Patriot, War Hero and living legend George H W Bush.
"Read my lips"
- George H. W. Bush, one-term president
Just another cycle.
Bush I...........white horse
Clinton..........red horse
Bush II...........black horse
Obama..........pale* horse
*green, silly socies as in greenbacks
... why? Because .......... http://www.GODisIMAGINARY.com
One term living legend, many great presidents and patriots have had one term, so what Truth is Truth.
Ronald Reagan used "voodoo economics"
- George H. W. Bush, one-term president
And comments like these is what passes for intelligence these days? I could write a book refuting what you just wrote. But why should I? If you weren't so lazy, indoctrinated, intellectually shallow .... you choose the correct adjective(s).... you would know that what you wrote is a lie.
You might as well just exchange "H W Bush" with "Howdy Dooty"
LOL!!!
lol?? Your comment is awaiting moderation.
How 'bout you START by rulin' over yer wifey and gang banger offspring. OOOOOps, the commies and socies say that's EVIL.
The original commandment was "Thou shalt not kill ANOTHER JEW". Killing anyone else,or anything else, was a okay by the Judson-Christian-Islamic god.
All those hyphens make it look like you are a bully socie doin' a group shotgun wedding. Are you a girly man, too??
hype
hen...............chick
In da hood. 🙂 and the Muslim type
Wait, are you trying somehow to compare Dawkins' "extremism" to Pat Robinson's? Seriously!! What is next? Comparing Jon Stewart to Bill O' Ralley? Megadeth to Justin Bieber?