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September 15th, 2013
02:17 PM ET
Rick Warren returns to the spotlightProgramming note: Rick and Kay Warren sit down exclusively with CNN’s Piers Morgan to talk about the death of their son and their new mission to raise awareness about mental illness. By Eric Marrapodi, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor (CNN) - Megachurch pastor and author Rick Warren is slowly returning to the spotlight, five months after his youngest son committed suicide. He has shared spiritual insights on social media, returned to the pulpit to preach about overcoming obstacles and taken his purpose-driven message to Rwanda, a nation still reeling from a bloody genocide. But Warren, the bestselling author of "The Purpose Driven Life" and one of the most famous pastors in the United States, hasn't yet spoken to the media about his son's death. That changed when Warren and his wife Kay sat for an extended interview with CNN’s Piers Morgan. In a brief clip released on Monday, Morgan and Warren discussed gun violence, including Monday's shooting at the Navy Yard in Washington. MORE ON CNN: "The first thing I did was get down on my knees and pray for those families" Rick and Kay Warren have been outspoken about the plague of gun violence in the United States, especially since their son, Matthew, took his own life in April after what the family call a lifelong struggle with mental illness. “In spite of America’s best doctors, meds, counselors, and prayers for healing, the torture of mental illness never subsided,” Warren wrote to staffers at Saddleback Church, his megachurch in Orange County, California. Then Warren, one of the country's most visible spiritual leaders, disappeared from public view. But not quite. Not even grief could silence Warren, a gregarious man with an apparent thirst for sharing his spiritual insights. Away from his pulpit, the preacher voiced his anguish and his insights in a stream of Twitter messages and Facebook posts. Days after his son’s suicide, for example, Warren tweeted this message: https://twitter.com/RickWarren/status/322434892828917760 On June 16, Father's Day, Warren tweeted this: https://twitter.com/RickWarren/status/346218036728037376 Other days, the pastor wrote about the pain of his loss. https://twitter.com/RickWarren/status/326512142742351872 In September, the purpose-drive pastor hinted at a new mission: Even though Warren has shared his thoughts on Twitter on Facebook, he hasn't answered the questions on many people's minds - questions that may be asked on Monday night: How has Matthew's death changed Warren's faith? Does he hold God responsible? Resuming his pastoral duties at Saddleback in late July, Warren began a sermon series titled “Getting through what you’re going through,” that hinted at his family’s struggles and outlined their new mission. “We intend to spend the rest of our lives comforting others with the same comfort we have been given from God, through your prayers,” Warren told the large crowds who came to see him preach. He also credited his other children, Amy and Joshua, with helping his family through its darkest days. “When all this happened, Amy looked at me and said, ‘Dad, Satan picked the wrong family to pick on. He’s going to lose so badly because of the platform God has given to our family.’ ” The Warren family set up a fund in Matthew's honor to raise awareness about mental illness. Last week Warren wrapped up a trip to Rwanda, a country he has focused on since 2005, when its government invited the pastor to help Rwandans recover from its vicious genocide in 1994, which claimed as many as 1,000,000 lives. This weekend Warren was back at Saddleback, preaching a sermon titled, "Never Waste Your Pain."
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Here are ten paasages from the Bible that clearly demonstrate God's position on slavery:
Genesis chapter 17, verse 12:
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised.
In this paasage God understands that people buy other people and, quite obviously, is comfortable with the concept. God wants slaves circumcised in the same way as non-slaves.
Exodus chapter 12 verse 43:
The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, "These are the regulations for the Paasover: No foreigner is to eat of it. Any slave you have bought may eat of it after you have circumcised him, but a temporary resident and a hired worker may not eat of it.
God again shows that he is completely comfortable with the concept of slavery and singles out slaves for special treatment.
sorry, I just posted 2 of the 10.
Gubmints are big on slavery. Why is it surprising God mentions it?? Americult left slavery as the inheritance for the young with all the debt.
origin: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482 NY Times review and important enough to reiterate.
New Torah For Modern Minds
“Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. (prob•a•bly
Adverb: Almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell).
The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.
Such startling propositions - the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years - have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity - until now.
The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called "Etz Hayim" ("Tree of Life" in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine doc-ument.
The notion that the Bible is not literally true "is more or less settled and understood among most Conservative rabbis," observed David Wolpe, a rabbi at Sinai Temple in Los Angeles and a contributor to "Etz Hayim." But some congregants, he said, "may not like the stark airing of it." Last Passover, in a sermon to 2,200 congregants at his synagogue, Rabbi Wolpe frankly said that "virtually every modern archaeologist" agrees "that the way the Bible describes the Exodus is not the way that it happened, if it happened at all." The rabbi offered what he called a "LITANY OF DISILLUSION”' about the narrative, including contradictions, improbabilities, chronological lapses and the absence of corroborating evidence. In fact, he said, archaeologists digging in the Sinai have "found no trace of the tribes of Israel - not one shard of pottery."
"When I grew up in Brooklyn, congregants were not sophisticated about anything," said Rabbi Harold Kushner, the author of "When Bad Things Happen to Good People" and a co-editor of the new book. "Today, they are very sophisticated and well read about psychology, literature and history, but they are locked in a childish version of the Bible."
"Etz Hayim," compiled by David Lieber of the University of Judaism in Los Angeles, seeks to change that. It offers the standard Hebrew text, a parallel English translation (edited by Chaim Potok, best known as the author of "The Chosen"), a page-by-page exegesis, periodic commentaries on Jewish practice and, at the end, 41 essays by prominent rabbis and scholars on topics ranging from the Torah scroll and dietary laws to ecology and eschatology.
These essays, perused during uninspired sermons or Torah readings at Sabbath services, will no doubt surprise many congregants. For instance, an essay on Ancient Near Eastern Mythology," by Robert Wexler, president of the University of Judaism in Los Angeles, states that on the basis of modern scholarship, it seems unlikely that the story of Genesis originated in Palestine. More likely, Mr. Wexler says, it arose in Mesopotamia, the influence of which is most apparent in the story of the Flood, which probably grew out of the periodic overflowing of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. The story of Noah, Mr. Wexler adds, was probably borrowed from the Mesopotamian epic Gilgamesh. "
Have you ever taken the time to read the Bible's story of Noah's flood? And have you ever pondered what this story's position in the Bible might actually mean?
While there are many people who consider the Bible, and therefore Noah's story, to be literally true, most educated and intelligent people understand that the story of Noah's flood is a myth. They understand that Mt. Everest was never covered in flood water, they understand that the ark could not hold the millions of species that are now found on earth, and they understand that there is no DNA evidence to show that all animals on earth came from single breeding pairs just a few thousand years ago.
But there is one part of the story of Noah's Ark that deserves special recognition. It shows us something about God that is quite unsettling to any intelligent person who takes the time to consider his actions. That special section is this:
God senselessly murdered millions of humans and billions of animals in the flood
How do we know it was senseless? Because "God" is supposed to be "all-knowing" and "all-powerful." If God were to exist, God would know what was coming when he created Adam and Eve. Therefore, God knew he would be murdering millions of people.
This realization leads to an obvious question: Why didn't God simply speed up Jesus' arrival to avoid the atrocity that is the flood? Or why didn't God program Adam and Eve when he created them to completely circumvent the need for such a horrendous atrocity?
You may have never considered this question, but it is exquisitely important. Because the flood is an atrocity of the highest order. It is mass murder on a global scale.
According to that story, the people were going to destroy the world by the evil way they were living. So God allowed the flood. But he offered a way out to those who would listen to Him.
Had God not allowed that flood and offered a way out, we would not be alive today (...according to that story).
AE, perhaps one day we too will be able to drown infants that we know will grow up to be killers or other sorts of threats to our world. If God can know the future then we might be able to one day as well.
Life is created and sustained by God's power, not yours.
Life gets along fine on its own. And it is on its own, AE.
That life is from God.
AE, I think you know there's nothing at all that you can point to and prove or even provide evidence that it is from God.
I can't prove it to you. Sure.
I seriously doubt you can prove your theory to me that life gets along fine on its own.
It's a bit like watching paint dry, but you absolutely can watch life getting by on its own.
I believe that is by God's design.
I believe that the Red Wings are the finest hockey team, ever. My belief, like yours, is nothing more than personal opinion.
Yea, this is an opinion piece. And people are offering their opinions. Welcome aboard.
What does your logic tell you about an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent god if that's the best solution it could find to a problem it created and could have anticipated?
The Creator hates evil, but has mercy for His creation.
Yet it kills children and babies because it is incapable of devising a more humane solution. Not omniscient nor omnipotent.
God provided a way out of the end to the evil to those who would listen.
The way out was only offered to Noah and the chosen few.
They trusted and had confidence in God. The evil people did not.
So what did the babies and children do to be considered evil?
Gen.6: 5,6,...12,13..."consequently Jehovah saw that the badness of man was abundant in the earth and every inclination of the thought of his heart was only bad all the time, and Jehovah felt regrets that he had made men in the earth, and he felt hurt at his heart.....so God saw the earth and look! It was ruined, because all flesh had ruined its way on the earth...."
It looks like the babies and children inherited something bad from their parents.
It all started when the potato salad went bad.
AE
"It looks like the babies and children inherited something bad from their parents."
Yep. Looks like fetuses can be evil and won't have any free will.
Perhaps God could see where there way of life would lead them and it was nothing but pure sadness and sorrow. No joy at all. Pure misery.
AE,
So free will doesn't exist. Fetuses can already be evil before birth. (What is their sin? Lying? Adultery?). No chance to repent.
In context of that story, the people were completely and utterly wicked beyond the hope of changing. Even the babies were doomed by the wickedness.
For those that would change, God offered a plan for salvation.
God evidently saw great misery in store for the Jews of Europe and was proactive about that as well.
Nothing but evil and wickedness in the paths of the several tsunamis, cyclones, etc. I feel some comfort in knowing that must be so.
AE,
Are you agreeing that: (1) there is no such thing as free will for everyone; (2) evil is already programmed into fetuses and (3) they may not be given any chance to repent?
It's common for Christians to maintain that the future is foreknown by God. That this is not incompatible with free will.
Observer
Are you agreeing that: (1) there is no such thing as free will for everyone; (2) evil is already programmed into fetuses and (3) they may not be given any chance to repent?
No. No. No.
AE,
What sin did the fetuses commit to deserve to be torturously killed? Still no answer. No answer in the Bible.
Did the fetuses have free will and choose to be evil? If so, please explain how 2-week-old fetuses can engage in logical thinking.
Were the fetuses given ANY CHANCE to repent? If so, please explain as above.
Summary: no free will for them and no chance to repent, but headed to hell anyway.
I'm not sure what the story of the flood means in regards to free will and the age of accountability.
I do know there is an important aspect about the salvation that God offers to those who listen to Him.
AE,
Kudos to you. I have dealt with quite a few Christians on here and you are likely the very first one who has stuck around to answer questions when they got tough. Based on that, I will give you credit for having more integrity than probably any other Christian I have dealt with here. Unless you say something to get me to change my mind 🙂 , I think you are a credit to Christians. Well done.
Thanks. They are difficult questions. I wish I had some better answers for you. I'm glad I'm in a community (ELCA) that allows me to ask some of the same types of questions you have asked.
AE,
Would I be right if I guessed that you might choose the Golden Rule over verses that put gays down?
One of my pastors is openly Lesbian... so, yes!
AE,
Impressive, but lesbians always rate higher than gays. 🙂
None of the infants god killed were capable of making a choice AE, and he drowned them anyway.
The answer to your question why is found in the account you suggest everyone read. Sin, God judges sin. This is an extreme example meant to get your attention. The consequence of sin is death.
Presuming there is such a thing as sin – what sins had the children and unborn committed?
Babies don't sin.
So why did your god kill them in the flood?
I don't know, I just trust that the little ones are in the presence of God.
The bottom line here is that God killed every child, baby and fetus on the face of the earth and neither God nor any Christian has explained what sin they were torturously killed for. Execution was without any trial or charges being brought. Good thing we don't let the Bible make our legal system.
You said that to have died in that flood one must have "sinned" and yet you agree with me that babies cannot "sin". Those are incompatible yet you do not question your belief in your original statement.
Everybody dies. Life is hard and difficult at times. At other times it is joyous and easy. Some people die at a young age. Some people die at an old age. God is with us through it all, not just the joyous and easy times. And there is more to life after we die. Death is not the final outcome.
AE, The point is not that we all die. The point is that your god supposedly killed the earth's population except for Noah and the chosen few. The christian explanation is that death is the consequence of sin which led to two questions: 1) what sin had the babies committed (and beyond that I truly can't believe that the vast majority of life on earth had sinned), and 2) couldn't an omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent god do a better job after all it supposedly created the universe and all in it – a few well chosen smites would have provided a solution.
1. The babies did not sin. The parents were evil. The babies were doomed to perish because of their parents.
2. God created the universe in His way, and maintains it in His way. Had God not offered a way out, we probably wouldn't be here today.
God gives & takes life. I don't know why he takes innocent life. I believe God cares about the life of the flesh, but he is more concerned with the eternal life of the soul.
And an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent god could not figure out how to save the children. AE you said you used logic; there is no logic just self-serving circular comments.
AE
"The babies did not sin. The parents were evil. The babies were doomed to perish because of their parents"
Explain to us why anyone should be sent to hell for NOTHING they did, but for ANYTHING their parents might have done.
Please explain why this is "JUST".
"1. The babies did not sin. The parents were evil. The babies were doomed to perish because of their parents.
2. God created the universe in His way, and maintains it in His way. Had God not offered a way out, we probably wouldn't be here today."
Divine command theory is an immoral position. But at least you admit your god is not better than your average dictator.
"Might makes right" is a poor rationalization.
One thing is certain. Arguing with religious nitwits is futile. They just can't see the illogic of their position. Shows how thoroughly brainwashed some of them are.
And yet you keep coming back to religious message boards.
And so do you, in spite of losing every logical argument.
We are talking about opinions and personal experiences.
Logic is great for mathematics and studying the natural world. But as imperfect human beings, it is impossible for us to be completely logical.
The world's greatest logical minds, whether they be atheist or religious, are probably not posting on this message board. They are probably doing logical things: like mathematics and science.
I honestly put my trust and confidence in God. And it works out well for me in my life. It is completely logical for me to be honest about this fact and express this.
If your god was real AE there should be more to it than "opinion and personal experience". After all, people who believe in other gods can say the same thing with equal vercity.
*veracity*
I didn't say all there was to God was "opinion and personal experience". I don't believe that.
Oh I realize you BELIEVE there is more to your god than opinion and personal experience, but that is all you can demonstrate about your (or any) god.
It is a terrible thing to lose your thoughts to permanent melancholy.
Logic replaced with dread and misdeed?
Why the same dreams and people?
Why the same shame and funeral?
My potion did not kill me. It doesn’t matter.
Open me and purge it. Make me a child.
Regrets adding up. Must balance the books.
The wrinkles in his fingers smelled of gasoline.
Tremble and swallow and wipe and push and beep.
The little smear looks more like a face than his face does.
Shut the visor with a tap.
He should have been smart enough to die before 50.
He should have been just that stupid.
I made $300 dollars yesterday at my garage sale. I thought it was cheap for a garage but you know, 75k obo. Thank you Jesus.
Denver won! Thank you Jesus!
And without Tim Tebow, who's not even in the NFL anymore.
More reason for celebrating.
Let me tell you somthin' Jesus weren't no sand nig</b?ger towel head sum bitch. He was white as I am with blue eyes. God said so.
Sorry I meant "sand nigger"
Old people also call Brazil Nuts "Nigger Toes"
Nice old people.
You need some HTML practice.
I teach HTML, XML, JavaScript, Photoshop, Dreamweaver, Illustrator. Microsoft Office and Networking. I don't need practice. I need to learn how to type lol.
A man once achieved notoriety when he plastered the walls, ceiling and floor of an entire home with memorabilia from his life. The most sacred of all life’s moments were represented. Birth, marriage, death.
When he sold the house a few weeks later, he was asked why.
The man said, “Because I want to see how the new owners will choose to decorate the house.” He snapped a photograph of the house and walked away.
I just found Jeeeeeeesus and I have written a book about it. This book will change your life. Just $89.99 plus S/H. Hurry and order today before he bastard gets away.
Christians, your representatives today used standard circular logic to argue against logical arguments that there is no proof for the existence of a “god”. They made no progress with their primary argument, “because I said so”. Score: Fail
My representatives did not act in this way. Thank God I have never been told anything like "because I told you so."
Thank God I belong to a community of faith that encourages dialogue over dictatorship. Thank God we follow Jesus.
AE you are a liar. Your argument for a god is, "because I think so."
I apologize if you think I am trying to dictate how you should believe. I'm trying to share what I personally believe. And that doesn't always agree with what you seem to think Christians believe.
AE, I don't care what you believe, but if it is what you say you are a lunatic.
A man/woman who spends countless hours online on the Faith and Belief Blog arguing against a God he/she insists doesn't exist has the opinion that I am a lunatic.
I am not worried at all.
What does it have to do with it that the person disagreeing with you spends time on the belief blog?
What does it have to do with it that the person disagreeing with you spends time on the belief blog?
He/she called me a lunatic.
I think his/her behavior is questionable. An atheist that spends hours a day being hostile to Christians might have some issues. That person may be trying to point out the flaws in other people, while ignoring their own short comings.
And if a person like that calls me a "lunatic", I'm not going to be worried. It probably says a lot more about that person.
You seem to be hasty for an excuse and hasty to judge those who disagree with you. Keep it up. Remember, if you judge everyone who disagrees with you, you can always be confident that you're completely right about everything. Good job, Christian. You've got the hang of this.
AE, I think all you Christians are goofy, but I still love ya! Most of my favorite people are idiot Christians.
Right back at both of you.
Apple Bush you seem to care allot about what AE believes.
AE, that was a good one. lol
I work from home so I just go back and forth and back and forth. My office is a computer fortress. I can be productive at work all day and still blog for up to 8 hours. And take care of the kids!
Old people are Christians for the same reason the still say "nigger".
K-Town
He could smell her from his position, directly downwind of the Santa Ana’s, the putrid air-born tendril of urine and body odor makes a formidable weapon. Her socks, slung over the tops of her borrowed Converse flaps. Here teeth only a reminder of public service announcements. The hair was everywhere. Not untidy exactly, just….everywhere. Like a blanket over her. She had a pleasing form though. Hard not to look twice. So hard in fact, many had made her their project. Each had failed. For her the addiction was her destiny and would lead to her death. But not today.
Joe Skinner rarely looked up when he was walking in L.A. Nobody on these streets needed directions or knew where any stars lived. This was Korea Town, the crossroads where Heaven and Hell conduct their business. It was different now. The riots broke the peace and historians were quick to point out that Korea Town was marginalized during the Rodney King Riots of 1992 and it was happening again. Neighborly “hellos” became tense and less friendly. If you want someone to get your back, stay in your part of town. And don’t bother calling 911.
Joe called 911. The voice on the other end of his “iMate” spoke in hushed tones. Joe laughed. He knew they would have to follow up on any call. If Ryerson shows up, He’s dead. Joe still had friends everywhere in the eight block neighborhood of K-Town. He walked without being disturbed, but only because he understood protocol. K-Town in 2033 was not only unsafe, it was anarchy and there were untouchables.
That is when he saw it. A photograph. Hard to see in the wet gutter, but the man in the image was beautiful. Long flowing hair that wasn’t messy but practically covered his whole upper section. Skinner reached for it. It sizzled in his fingers and glowed. This was Jesus and he was come unto the Earth to save humans at long last.
Joe on the other hand really wanted to get baked before work and needed a paper and Jesus was handy. It was wet but they had one of those electric 2025 hand dryers in the rest room of the filling station he stood next to. He blazed, and soon saw Jesus once again. This time Jesus stood before him saying, “I brought unto you a miracle and this is how you betray your lack of awe to the sight of me?
Joe thought a moment and finally looked at Jesus and said, “You crazy fuck, here, toke up bro!” The party lasted long into the night. Jesus got tore up and the moral of the story is that Marijuana should be legal in the United States.
Solve a layer of physics down to the next level and you are in a different universe. Solve new laws of physics and you advance again. New universes are infinite.
The trigger: when enough multi-verses are normalized, they intersect. Change 0 to 1 or vice versa and you have found another universe. In other words, 1 is now zero. New universe.
This is all true because it is written down and I believe it.
Go now and tell the fools the truth of their misplaced worship.
Speak loudly that religion is the true great evil on this Earth.
This Evil affects every plant and animal the Mother gave us.
Tell them and care not if they are vulgar, for you are the light.
The Atheists must rise now and prepare the planet for the future.
In the future, religion will be tolerated but reduced to a fringe group.
Atheist are terrible human beings. Check Stalin out.
Stalin is nothing at all compared to biblegod; he drowned an entire planet full of people and allows a never ending torture pit to exist for people who don't agree with him and chant a magic spell in the right way. So much for loving his enemies.
Bo, Jesus wants to burn you for eternity if you don't tell him how much you love him for ever.
Scientific Research and Real Facts about the Cannabinoids in Cannabis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hHnQ-YAqAsA
We keep seeing more and more examples where cannabis may cause brain damage resulting in totally irrelevent comments in the middle of a discussion.
I wonder if there is matter in the universe or multi-verse that is so different looking from what our physics allow that we don’t have the faculties to perceive it even exists.
Following that line of thought, that matter could be right next to us and we don’t know it. That matter may be inside of us as we pass through it.
I blind worm is not concerned about rainbows.
Mecca
Blankety blank out about to catch ya
Rollin it up, got my paper
L.A. is a friendly neighbor
Don’t put on the upities and yuppities
I like my dogs better
Raised on religion, living on stealin’
Mecca’s in my head buy not in my religion.
I read this in Snoop Lion's voice.
Guess we have ta call 'im Lion, now.
Had to try out my rap chops sam.
Great servitude will pour forth from the orifices exposed by the gaping wounds left by bombs and cigarette lighters.
This is why the nose to the statue was bent and everyone mistakenly thought it had been broken.
That man will go to hell and so will the atheists if they don’t smell the sacrament of God in the wash basin of sacrifice. Be not afraid of the foul stench.
I have decided to convert from atheism to Solipsism. The ceremony is going to be a blast, I will be having all my friends and family over and un-validating their existence. Then it will just be a free-for-all. I will also be getting a tattoo of my own face on my ass.
I have decided to convert from atheism to Solipsism. The ceremony is going to be a blast, I will be having all my friends and family over and un-validating their existence. Then it will just be a free-for-all. I will also be getting a tattoo of my own face on my ass.
Also, my pee-pee is tiny.
That is somewhat true, but it makes great babies.
God created the universe. Many billions of years ago, a life form evolved on a planet not so far distant and their scientists deduced the building blocks for life existed in the universe and from it, new life forms could be created. These ancient ones populated Mars with life and eventually, due to asteroid events over millions of years, life arrived here on Earth.
We are a product of that primeval turbulence. Therefore, we must worship the Aliens, not God. The Aliens have to worship God. This is all true because I have faith that it happened just this way.
I am a horrible human being who is wallowing in my own self loathing and fear of the world.
Ahh, don't be mad.