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September 19th, 2013
11:01 AM ET
Pope Francis: Church can't 'interfere' with gaysBy Eric Marrapodi and Daniel Burke, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editors (CNN) - Pope Francis said the church has the right to express its opinions but not to "interfere spiritually" in the lives of gays and lesbians, expanding on explosive comments he made in July about not judging homosexuals. In a wide-ranging interview published Thursday, the pope also said that women must play a key role in church decisions and brushed off critics who say he should be more vocal about fighting abortion and gay marriage. Moreover, if the church fails to find a "new balance" between its spiritual and political missions, the pope warned, its moral foundation will "fall like a house of cards." The interview, released by Jesuit magazines in several different languages and 16 countries on Thursday, offers perhaps the most expansive and in-depth view of Francis' vision for the Roman Catholic Church. The pope's comments don't break with Catholic doctrine or policy, but instead show a shift in approach, moving from censure to engagement. Elected in March with the expectation that he would try to reform the Vatican, an institution that many observers say is riven by corruption and turf wars, Francis said his first mission is to change the church's "attitude." "The church has sometimes locked itself up in small things," the pope said, "in small-minded rules." "The people of God want pastors," Francis continued, "not clergy acting like bureaucrats or government officials." MORE ON CNN: New interview shows why the pope is so beloved The interview was conducted by the Rev. Antonio Spadaro, editor of La Civilta Cattolica, a Jesuit journal based in Rome, over three meetings this August at Francis' apartment in Rome. The pope approved the transcript in Italian, according to America magazine, a Jesuit journal based in New York that initiated the interview and supervised its translation into English. Advance copies of the interview were provided to several news organizations, including CNN. Jesuits from around the world submitted questions to Spadaro. Francis answered them with the frankness that has become a hallmark of his young papacy. To begin the interview, Spadoro bluntly asks, "Who is Jorge Mario Bergolio?" - Francis's name before he was elected pope. "I am a sinner," the pope answers. "This is the most accurate definition. It is not a figure of speech, a literary genre. I am a sinner.” The pope didn't mention any particular sins, and Catholic theology holds that all humans are sinners, a consequence of Adam and Eve's original transgression. Still, a pope describing himself foremost as "sinner" is striking. MORE ON CNN: The pope said what? Six stunners from Francis Offering new glimpses of his personal life, Francis said he prays at the dentist's office and felt trapped in the Vatican's traditional papal apartments. (He moved to a smaller one in a nearby building.) He has a taste for tragic artists and Italian films and keeps the will of his beloved grandmother in his prayerbook. But it was the pope's vision for the church's future - painted in broad strokes - that's sure to rile or inspire Catholics, depending on which side of the church they sit. Here are some highlights: On Women In July, Francis said, emphatically, that the "door is closed," on women's ordination, a statement that disappointed many Catholic liberals. But that doesn't mean the church should consider women secondary or inferior, Francis said. "The feminine genius is needed wherever we make important decisions," he told Spadora. Francis also called on Catholics to think hard about the function of women in the church. "Women are asking deep questions that must be addressed," the pope said. "The church cannot be herself without the woman and her role." On Homosexuality When Francis was a bishop in Buenos Aires, Argentina, he received letters from gays and lesbians who said they were "socially wounded" by the church, he said. "But the church does not want to do this," Francis said in the interview. The pope then recalled his comments in July, when he told the media aboard a flight to Rome, "Who am I to judge" gay people? MORE ON CNN: Pope Francis on gays: 'Who am I to judge?' "By saying this, I said what the catechism says," the pope told Spadaro. The catechism, the Catholic Church's book of official doctrine, condemns homosexual acts, but says gays and lesbians "must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity." "Religion has the right to express its opinion in the service of the people, but God in creation has set us free: it is not possible to interfere spiritually in the life of a person." Francis said that someone once asked him if he "approved" of homosexuality. "I replied with another question," he said. "`Tell me, when God looks at a gay person, does he endorse the existence of this person with love, or reject and condemn this person?’ We must always consider the person. Here we enter into the mystery of the human being." Abortion, gay marriage and contraception Some American Catholics grumble that Francis has been largely silent on signature Catholic political issues. "I’m a little bit disappointed in Pope Francis that he hasn’t, at least that I’m aware of, said much about unborn children, about abortion, and many people have noticed that," Bishop Thomas Tobin of Providence, Rhode Island, said earlier this month. Francis said that he's aware of the criticism, but he is not going to change. “We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods," he told his Jesuit interviewer. "I have not spoken much about these things, and I was reprimanded for that." But the pope said the church's teachings on those issue are clear, and he clearly believes in those teachings, so what else is there to say? "It is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time," Francis said. False prophets and quick decisions Only false prophets claim to have all the answers, Francis said. "The great leaders of the people of God, like Moses, have always left room for doubt," he said. "You must leave room for the Lord." But church leaders, including himself, haven't always practiced humility, the pope admitted. Many of the bad decisions he made while leading Catholics in Argentina came about because of his "authoritarianism and quick manner of making decisions," the pope said. That won't happen again, Francis said, as he begins to steer the church in a new direction. He didn't offer an exact course, but he said change will come. Sooner or later. "Many think that changes and reforms can take place in a short time," he said. "I believe that we always need time to lay the foundations for real, effective change. And this is the time of discernment." soundoff (3,625 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 Next »
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Many of the sugar lobby tycoons will also soon be behind bars as well. Point is, our case is now complete revealing that certain parties bullied for the inclusion of a song in a popular 60's children's film promoting granulated sugar doses of as much as a spoonful for children with promises that it would ease medication intake. Several leading dentists will be on hand to reveal the harm this has caused over several decades.
THIS ISTHE FALSE PROPHET that will rise to deceive.
..Amen....
Those that speak in the name of the Lord
will speak the truth.
They will lie. But this is the highest form of deception.
Sin will destroy you. Repent and call in the name of the Lord Jesus and turn away from sin and God will forgive and save you.
The true prophets will NOT lie
Yeah, you are only jealous because his religious scam is way more successful then your particular scam.
And he gets to wake up with the Piata and Sistine Chappel whereas your charlatan preacher man wakes up in some shi tty condo/house somewhere out in the sticks.
And another thing you backwards fundie, your myth is no different then the catholics.
All of you believe in something that does not exist.
I laugh at you all daily for being the fools that you are for perpetuating the various myths.
The evil one has taken over the church, he will try to destroy the Church but have no fear, Jesus promised us that "the gates of hell" will not prevail against his church, in the end Jesus will prevail................
Sorry Alan, but you have no proof of that statement, so for me, it is meaningless.
You must have not gotten the memo yet, god does not exist.
Screen name hijacking. Cute. Can't stand your ground in the discussion, steal a name and make random posts.
At least there's one thing we can agree on, no matter how minor.
.Amen..
It happens to all of the regulars around here.
It's the blog equivalent of "nanny nanny boo boo, stick your head in doo doo".
That being said, I often find the mid post non-sequitors from the fake HeavenSent to be amusing
Looks like the workings of phony Heaven Sent.
Amen...
This is too easy
What's too easy?
No one has the right to mistreat gay people or all sorts of people that practise what we don't. Though the bible is very clear about gays, fornicators,idolaters, murderers...any one that want to do Gods will has to quit those practices. Is it hard to quit? Yes, maybe very hard, but not impossible. If you gain love for God, and to do what is right in his eyes, you will be able to make changes, just like many in the first century did!
.Amen
Ah, men and many women are seeing the ugliness of the church and its catechism and are leaving the pews and collection plate empty. Losing power is important to the church than any thing else.
is "more" important than any thing else.
Your bible says that you are supposed to kiII gays. Have you met a gay person today? Did you kiII them? Guess you dont believe the bible as much as you think you do.
The NT doesn't say to kill gays... We are living under the NT! Though, the bible says in the NT that God will judge fornicators, gays, murderes, idolaters...he's giving people time to change there life.
'"their" life', not '"there" life', stupid.
Dippy- you still have time to change your life as well.
Change your grammar, doofus.
"Is it hard to quit? Yes, maybe very hard"
I have never struggled with ho mos exual tendencies, so it has never been difficult for me to refrain from that activity, but only because I was not born gay. I'm sure it's difficult for somoene born left handed to live in a right handed world, but can you claim to be so much better than those who were born different that you set up some challenge for them to overcome their difference before embracing them as your equal instead of just accepting them as everyone accepted you?
The Truth about our human s exuality and that it is not a choice is what will set you free. Free to stop being a total d ick to honest and hardworking fellow humans whos only sin is that they were born attracted to one gender versus another.
Well that challenge is set for me as well, not only for gays. We all know the many risks anyone can have for having sx with gays or with many women... At the end, That challenge set by God will benefit ourselfs even physically!
A good question for theologians and seculars alike would be, who handed out the "hysterical" pills during all this Jesus stuff? This is a clear case of mob hysteria and something brought it about. Something real, not "miracles" not "messiahs". Cult leaders brain wash. If the Jesus described in the bible is real, he was a dangerous cult leader. He WAS sentenced to death after all.
The Hebrews had messiah fever back then.
During that time, there were numerous claimaints to the Messiah role like Simon of Peraea, Athronges, Menahem ben Judah, Vespasian, Simon bar Kokhba, etc. ad nauseum.
"Although Simon had saved himself by flying away through a certain valley, Gratus overtook him, and cut off his head." Josephus,
Simon of Peraea may have have 'put a diadem on his head', and his men must have created sufficient trouble to make the Romans send in the legions, but there are no indications that he was considered the Messiah. Jona Lendering
Comment: Simon of Peraea may have have 'put a diadem on his head', and his men must have created sufficient trouble to make the Romans send in the legions, but there are no indications that he was considered the Messiah. Jona Lendering
Apple Bush
"A good question for theologians and seculars alike would be, who handed out the "hysterical" pills during all this Jesus stuff?"
I don't recall any instances of hysterical in scripture. The groups made of many thousands were quite calm, traveling many miles to sit and listen to the Master speak. There was one instance when a group rose up against Jesus and tried to stone Him, but obviously these weren't His followers.
"This is a clear case of mob hysteria and something brought it about. Something real, not "miracles" not "messiahs"."
Why not those things? You've got a guy claiming to be God and performing miracles to prove it going around. I gotta say I'd have gone to see Him even if I was an atheist.
"Cult leaders brain wash. If the Jesus described in the bible is real, he was a dangerous cult leader."
Not sure what makes Him dangerous. Other than the truth hurts.
"He WAS sentenced to death after all."
For blasphemy ... claiming to be God. Which of course wasn't blasphemy because He was/is God.
Topher, I can't address this reply because you don't understand my use of the words "hysterical" and "hysteria" so you were already on the wrong track to start.
Fair enough. Explain their uses then.
Though you should be able to address the rest of it.
No I can't, and I am not your English teacher.
C'mon, dude. I know what hysteria means. You're the one claiming a different use.
Topher you are embarrassing yourself.
I don't see how. But if you aren't interested in discussing your own post, that's fine.
Topher, I like you but I am also an honest person. I won't discuss the post further because YOU can't. You don't have the intelligence to discuss it because of your bible fixation for one thing. Your understanding of English is suspect too.
I like you, too. That's why I don't understand what you are saying here. I can't talk about it? Of COURSE I'm fixated on the Bible. I love it. I want to talk about it. That's why we're here. Whether you agree with it or you reject it ...
Pope Francis is a breath of fresh air. He's humble. He's focused on serving the poor. He doesn't cast stones. And he wants to bring the faith to everyone, which is a truly "catholic" way of thinking, with a little "c." He has only just begun, and he has already changed the focus of the Church in a way that I believe will attract more people to the faith, and bring back people who have left the Church. It seems to me that this is exactly what the successor to Peter should be doing. The Catholic faith is a beautiful thing, and more people will see that through this man.
Amen
Amen
Ah, men along with many of the women see the ugliness of the church and its catechism and leaving the pews and collection plates empty. Probably why the RCC is selling off assets to keep what is left of the scam up and running in the third world.
.Amen.
The Vatican has been exposed. Visit be4forethefire.com and hit the link at the top.
visit be4thefire.com and check out the Vatican exposed link. The Catholic church was created by Satan, not Jesus.
Comical
I think Einstein said condemnation without investigation is the highest form of ignorance.
The highest form of ignorance... is one dumbass christian telling another dumbass christian that they are not really christian... because (insert whatever dumbass thing they believe differentiates them form each other)
Amen.
A friend of mine, Lutheran by upbringing, was interested in the Catholic Church. Her friends and family told her Catholic aren't Christians, etc. etc. I invited her to attend services with me during Holy Week. Her comment was "If Catholics aren't Christians, there are no Christians." She entered RCIA and converted at the next Easter. Rather than get your misinformation from a website, why not attend a few RCIA classes?
Because Bill, I still have a little respect for myself.
Even for a cradle Catholic, RCIA provides such a wonderful, deep understanding of our faith. The Holy Spirit works wonders in that room. If anyone just wants to learn more about what the Catholic faith is all about, I encourage you to attend. It will change your life.
Matt,
"The Holy Spirit works wonders in that room."
People get fired up in all sorts of groups, from pep rallies to political conventions, to Greenpeace meetings. You should see how "inspired" the folks are at seances and voodoo ceremonies.
I was raised Catholic but I find it difficult to ignore all the pagan symbols in the catholic church. Symbols don't ie.
Check: I've never seen people get worked up in an RCIA class. Quite the opposite. God wants to have a relationship with all of us, and those who are open to Him quietly form that relationship with Him over the course of the RCIA classes (and continue to build that relationship for the rest of their lives). I've never seen the Holy Spirit work in the way you're describing - with people falling over and the like. That's not the Holy Spirit I know, and that's not what RCIA is like or about.
Mitt Mattingly,
Yes, I gave extreme examples, but your feeling is merely another, calmer manifestation of the same type of thing.
p.s. Mitt, I was a Catholic for over 50 years - I've been there.
Francis is stuck in the mumbo-jumbo of biblical errors.
Moving now to the 21st century:
1. origin: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482
“New Torah For Modern Minds
Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.
Such startling propositions – the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years – have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity – until now.
The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called "Etz Hayim" ("Tree of Life" in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine docu-ment. “
prob•a•bly
Adverb: Almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell.
2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations (or “mythicizing” from P, M, M, L and J) and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a ma-mzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). An-alyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Ludemann, Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, ) via the NT and related doc-uments have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.
The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hitt-ites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.
earlychristianwritings.com/
Amen .
So, Ronnie got arrested for making harassing calls to a public official. It won't be long before they stick Sam stone's rear end in the cell next to his. LOL! And loving it, stanky!
Wait. What did Sam stanky say about doing pallen in front of her retarded kid, alqeada? That wasn't stanky skin fold stone!
Though the people see they know not what is seen... Though the people know they know not what is known... Though the people do they know not what was done... Though the people praise each other they know not their praising reasons... Thusly the people live and so they will die... They will never know death's reasons why... Does anyone truly know why Life is and upon what grounds do Life's people so stand..? With pride comes the shameless yet after pride's shamefulness comes cornered reasonableness yet in time's progressives does pride ever enter in and the cycles repeat...
Sad that anyone still cares what the pope, the leader of the den of pe.dophiles known as the RCC, has to say.
Even you must agree that serving the poor and loving your neighbor are good things. Pope Francis is promoting values that all good people share, regardless of whether they are Catholic or belong to any religion at all. No church, including the Catholic Church is perfect, nor is any man, including this Pope, who calls himself a sinner. Having a good man lead the Church is surely a good thing, however.
The deceiver, the son of pedition, the lawless one, the false prophet, the second beast, the liar, speaking blasphemy in hypocricy, the hypocrite.. cursed with a curse.. (check all these designations on the web)
do not follow him he is the servant of hell.
God has rejected him and will throw him alife into hell. Their intesion is to sweep a huge number of souls with them into hell. He is the one that really hates the gay by lying to them. Giving them security instead of warning them about the coming judgement.
My sheep will not follow the voice of the stranger, watch this liar closely for what he really is.
The messiah is coming back and is at the door.
no messiah coming
get of your knees
He is coming, I have seen him coming.
He will be here soon the Bible says so.
THERE IS A MESIAH WHO HAS COME AND WILL COME AGAIN
YOU ARE BLIND TO THE TRUTH. AND I PRAY THAT YOUR EYES WILL BE OPEN, BECAUSE ONE DAY HE WILL SURELY PUT IN HIS APPEARANCE AND EVERY KNEES SHALL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE CONFESS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD.
NOPE
Thanks for the crazy... we just don't get enough of that on these blogs...
Jesus Christ the son of God is coming back soon.
If you say so... I won't be holding my breath...
People like you make me fearful of our future. If we cant educate this crazy belief out of future generations I fear that people like you are going to take matters into your own hands and try to bring on this mythic second coming.
This may be the only chance you get to hear this truth. The pope will lie to you. He has many friends now that he lies to you people.
No god with a scintilla of sense would send a goof like you as its representative, blathering 2000 year-old Middle Eastern fantasy.
Have you red the BIBLE? Do you know what you are writing here? Do you know you will be responsible for what you are writing here? God is a judge also.
LET's Religiosity Law #7 – If you think the bible is historical fact of the creation of the Universe, Earth or Mankind and believe without a doubt that some Jewish zombie can make you live forever if you symbolically eat of his flesh, drink of his blood, and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master; so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a sinful woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree! Then you are an award-winning retard.
point being, agreed, i'm thinking, so, since returning to my faith i feel much better. don't you?
Skid mark. Oh. My mistake. My dog's ass looks like Jesus Jones, my gardener.
So does my dog's as.
, then I feel perfectly within my rights to tell them to fk off. Notice, I did not say shutup.
ggie: I'm not sure who you are speaking on behalf of, but fk off anyway.
Of course, this probably means that the current Pope-A-Dope will have to turn himself into said authorities. You know only schizophrenics have conversations with themselves...you might wish to seek some help
sam stone
HS always posts as if we should accept the same drivel she does.
Probably has something to do with that jeeebus marital aid stuck in her stanky weedpatch
sam stone
HS is still bloviating out of her stanky weed patch
sam stone
"I just love reading the hate spewed by the real uncle tom and Sam Stoned. It makes my day. NOT"
Yet you come back to read it
punk
sam stone
while we are at it, jeff, fk you and your empty proxy threats
sam stone
you are just haivng a hissy fit because people do not believe your drivel
you cannot handle discussion, so you bloviate threats
go home, boy, and get your shinebox
snivelling punk
sam stone
are you seriously comparing the morality of modern man with those of the iron age sheep molesters who wrote, edited or translated the bible?
sam stone
stacy: if you want to comply with the great commission and preach to non believers, that is fine. but, DO NOT claim persecution when some of those believers suggest you insert your bible into that overgrown weed patch between your legs
sam stone
live4him: do they have to count the folds in your skin to get to your secret garden?
sam stone
And, by "secret garden", i mean weed filled overgrown stanky patch
sam stone
HS always posts as if we should accept the same drivel she does.
Probably has something to do with that jeeebus marital aid stuck in her stanky weedpatch
while we are at it, live4, your empty proxy threats are absurd. blah, blah, fking blah
sam stone
and jeebus is on his way back
"sam stone,
'go suck a 12 gauge'"
Stone references pleasuring Jesus on one's knees as his truth explodes into their mouths. CNN encourages this and blocks any attempts to criticize her
The pic of him at that link looks like he's either pleag himself under his dress or has an altar boy bent over in front of him. What a disgusting pedophile.
"Yes Jesus..ha..ha! We fked 'em good again didn't we! Those dumbshs don't know that the judge is a devout Catholic sheep and always does our bidding like a good boy".
In the corner crying while pling myself...
"Don't look at me!" – sob – sob – "Don't you dare look at me with those judgemental eyes!!"
sam stone
there is NO god. you are an idiot and should be sterilized. it is my sincere hope you have no contact with children – and if by chance you do – you should be restricted access to children immediately. tolerance of religious idiocy is coming to a swift end...
sam
Time to fill out the Buhurt Form and submit it in triplicate.
sam stone
Pompous pious fk Marriage equality is coming. If it bothers you, you can either put on your big boy pants and accept it, or you get get on your knees with your sidearm and go meet jeebus. Either way works for me
sam stone
we are just attacking the pompous fks who purport to speak for god, doogie
sam stone
Well, we know for certain that no one speaks for god more than iron age sheep molesters, eh?
sam stone
nicetry: oooh, proxy threats of hell. pretty scary, for those who believe such tripe. interesting that you wish to spend eternity with a being from whom you have to be "saved". sort of like a spiritual stockholm syndrome. anyway, get back on your knees, b1tch
sam stone we are just attacking the pompous fks who purport to speak for god, doogie.
sam stone
Amen? Pompous pious fk Marriage equality is coming. If it bothers you, you can either put on your big boy pants and accept it, or you get get on your knees with your sidearm and go meet jeebus. Either way works for me
sam stone
big, big, big fking lawsuit
so, faith/hhari/etc ct,
how is that coming?
are we going to be served anytime?
or is it the same pace as the holy pincushion scapegoat jeeeeeebus?
no lawsuit coming
no jeebus to return
just faith and it's delusions
eat dung, pen-day-ho
Well lookie there. Another flurry of posts! Thanks stanky. No lawsuit 4 u girlfriend. It is called prison.
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." ~Douglas Adams
Good bye, and thanks for all the fish...
I read Hitchhiker about 35 years ago and it still makes me laugh.
Good morning, everyone!
What's up T? Save any souls today?
Hey, Apple! How have you been?
No, I haven't saved any souls. That's God's job.
Doesn't God work through you? Don't preachers "save" souls?
God can work through me as far as my spreading His Gospel. But no, a preacher doesn't have that kind of power. Only God can save someone. He's the one who paid the ransom.
So have you repented and trusted Him yet?
No Topher, I don't even believe Jesus, such as he is described, existed.
Wow, you're in quite the minority there. Even secular historians concede we know Jesus existed. Of course, they don't believe He was God ...
Any particular reason why?
Yes Topher, I believe Jesus is simply an amalgam of many legends that preceded him. There will likely be more in the future too. Just like Jesus.
I can believe there was a rabble rousing radical rabbi who railed against the petty bureaucratic tendencies of the Hebrew Hierarchy of the day. A man who wanted to spread his God to more than just the 12 tribes and understood that the arcane, ritualistic proscriptions just don't fly with the gentiles.
I think that's also why early Christianity usurped so many pagan festivials – the heathens won't convert if you take away all their fun!
But I cannot believe in all the supernatural chicanery attributed to him.
There has never been, nor will there ever be anyone like Him.
I know this isn't going to happen, but I wish I could send you some information. I have tons of resources I wish I could share with you.
Gosh T, I thought we were friends. Why would you do that to me?
Topher,
What you have are tons of legends, fantasies of wishful thinking and superst.itions.
haha. cause I care about you, dude!
Anyone see the pattern with religion? 1. Pick on someone as a group. 2. Try to make them feel less than. 3. Once they wise up and fight back, take them in because we're supposed to be "good" people. 4. Find someone else to pick on. 5. Repeat pattern.
This is so not true the catholic church does not pick on any body it is everyone else picking on US hte church that JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF FOUNDED
Muslims do that.
Listen to all the Christian hypocrites picking on people for not believing and following every word of the Bible when they don't either.
Like which ones? I agree, no one follows everything exactly because we're all human and prone to sin. But if you'll point out what I'm missing, I'd be interested to know.
Topher, is that me?
Wow, larry, that's some priceless stuff you got there?
Violating the supposed mores of iron age sheep mounters is sin?
Funny stuff, indeed. You should go on a national tour with that
I do own a soap box, does that count?
i'm sure it counts for something, with someone
Lawrence of Arabia:
Which do you support the Bible about:
slavery?
discrimination against women?
discrimination against the handicapped?
beating children with rods for discipline?
@ Observer: i've given you this before, but you continue to use this same poor argument over & over...
here's Tim Keller's response (whom Newsweek called "a CS Lewis for the 21st century"):
http://www.redeemer.com/news_and_events/newsletter/?aid=363
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gay/long.htm
@ Dobbsian: interesting... your annotated skeptics bible quotes Robert Gagnon on this (recognizing him as an authoritative scholar on the subject), but then proceeds to ignore the rest of his scholarship which directly debunks your position...
here's an example from Robert Gagnon:
a summary article: [remove the periods from "ho.mo.se.xuality" & prosti.tution]
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/gospeldrivenchurch/2013/06/05/are-the-new-testament-condemnations-of-ho.mo.se.xuality-simply-references-to-temple-prosti.tution/
the full peer-reviewed article: (even just read the headings)
http://www.robgagnon.net/responsetorogers2.htm
Russ,
"@ Observer: i've given you this before, but you continue to use this same poor argument over & over.."
"same poor argument'?
The Bible says that God told his CHOSEN PEOPLE how to buy slaves; where they should come from; set limits on how badly you can HURT them and that they were PROPERTY. It NEVER called slavery an abomination or a sin.
Read the Bible someday. You'll be shocked.
Russ,
As long as people will pick and choose from the Bible, why not choose the hugely important Golden Rule?
@ Observer: I have a postgraduate degree in this field. I've read it.
Seriously, read the Keller article... as he points out, people seem unaware that there is 2000 years of biblical studies on this stuff.
Russ
" Observer: I have a postgraduate degree in this field. I've read it."
Good. So you know that everything I said was correct or do you need to read it again?.
@ Observer: why not actually respond to what Keller says here?
the charge of inconsistency fails to get basic biblical hermeneutics.
it's the shellfish argument not reading Acts 10.
it's the slavery argument not reading Gal.3:28 or Philemon, for that matter.
it's the handicapped not reading John 5 (or any other healing for that matter).
in short, it's a complete failure to see what Jesus says so clearly to the Pharisees in John 5:39-40: the whole OT is about ME, and failing to see that is failing to understand the point of the book.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkNa6tLWrqk
Russ, that made my day. Thank you for that video. It reminds me of a sermon I once heard on http://www.gty.org called "Jesus in the Old Testament"
Russ,
Speaking of complete failures, that pitiful article ignores what the Bible actually says and just offers excuses for why it supposedly doesn't apply anymore. It doesn't address what I said, but instead talks about easily argued eating laws, which I did not contest.
The Bible says that God told his CHOSEN PEOPLE how to buy slaves; where they should come from; set limits on how badly you can HURT them and that they were PROPERTY. It NEVER called slavery an abomination or a sin.
All are FACTS about the Bible. Excuses created from the New Testament don't change those FACTS at all. The Bible said so.
More important than apologies for what the Bible says God did, should be the realization that choices are made all the time about what is more important when choosing between conflicting statements in the Bible. Many Christians choose verses that put people down rather than the far more important Golden Rule. It's pure HYPOCRISY. Why not CHOOSE the commandment that Jesus endorsed?
so Russ, what insti.tute did you get your "postgraduate degree" from? Bible Humper College? And what was the subject of your thesis?
I've had a few conversations with Russ. I would not criticise his grasp of the philosophy of religion or the quality of his education. We disagree on a lot of things, but that makes him all the more interesting to hear from.
Revealing yourself as Satans little helper by accusing the bretheren. Like the two thieves on either side of Jesus you and I are both sinners. Imagine that, we commited the same sins but I will be saved and you will not. why, because I recognize the light and see myself falling short. you hold parades of pride.
Not everyone needs to be saved.