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September 30th, 2013
08:55 AM ET
Popes John XXIII and John Paul II to be declared saints in AprilFrom Ben Wedeman, CNN (CNN) - Popes John XXIII and John Paul II will be declared saints in April, the Vatican said Monday. The announcement came after Pope Francis met with cardinals to discuss the planned canonizations of two of his predecessors. The ceremony will take place on April 27. It will be the first time two popes will be canonized at the same time. To be named a saint involves a series of steps, but the qualifications are straightforward, according to the veteran Vatican analyst John Allen. "You put a holy life and two miracles together, according to the Catholic system, you've got a saint," he said. FULL STORY
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Hey Jesus,
All the gang called;
Buddha
Krishna
Odysseus
Romulus
Dionysus
Heracles
Glycon
Zarathustra
Attis of Phrygia
Horus
They said you missed the family reunion!
Religion is a crime
I preach that mess all the time
The churches just keep on prayin’ and sayin’
I ain’t haten’
Just demonstratin’
Atheists stand up fool and show your face
Ain’t no disgrace
Gotta be that way player
Do us all that favor
That song is the mad note yo'! Why ain't you dancin'?
@bostontola : A scientist or engineer may have faith that they can apply an equation and the system will work or the model represents reality well. They have this faith because it was tested and succeeded.
Then why do evolutionists believe in evolution? The fruit fly experiments in the 1950's forced mutation upon fruit flies – culminating in more than a million years of mutations. Multiple differences occurred, yet nothing that provided an evolutionary "leg up". In the end, the so-called new species couldn't survive in the wild (some couldn't even fly). So, the evolution experiments failed, but evolutionists still have their faith.
Environmental factors also play a part and they generally cannot be factored into experiments, for example mammals only became dominant after the dinosaurs became extinct, so had that not happened to the dinosaurs there may not have been humans.
So you have faith, regardless of the ability for scientists to test the theory of evolution. Which is also called blind faith.
Live4Him
I see why you disbelieve evolution, as it appears your brain never really evolved with the rest of ho.mo sapiens.
but if you are right and god gave you that brain, you should really hate him!
What? Even for you that comment is at best ridiculous. What the h&ll are you talking about?
IGNORE THE FACTS, TWIST THE CONTEXT.
Typical L4H BS.
If you would take the correct interpretation of the word 'faith' te arguement would end quickly.
Why is it that every time acreationist wants to attack evolution, they start with a blatant lie. That never happened you fvcking half-wit. Did you read that on some creationist web site? Evolution has been proven beyond sane doubt. Ever heard of DNA? Why is it your is 98.4% identical to a chimpanzee?
Ever heard of Neanderthal man? Of CroMagnon Man? Of h.omo Erectus, of H.omo Ergaster, or Australopithicus robustus, of Australopithicus Afraenses? Of H.omo Habilis.
They are all earlier hominids that make up the evolutionary branch back to the last common ancestor we shared with apes. Or were they all on Noah's Ark.
People have a right to be deliberatley ignorant, but you abuse the privilege.
@Colin : [Fruit fly experiments] never happened
Another fool who cannot use google.
@Colin : Ever heard of DNA? Why is it your is 98.4% identical to a chimpanzee?
Ever hear of the term conjecture? Your blind faith causes you accept a LEAP over the Grand Canyon to reach a belief in evolution.
Because the "Creation Research Inst.itute" hasn't done any research...just keeps publishing the same nonsense that Live4Him and Topher and the rest read with such happiness, knowing that they've "proven Darwin wrong."
Kings of wishful thinking...as the song goes.
Yes, fruit flies are regularly used i nexperiments, that's not what I take issue with. I take issue with your idiotic comment abot 1,000,000 years. The world's population of fruit flies would be measured in the billions. For a lab to "force mutation upon fruit flies – culminating in more than a million years of mutations" this would mean conducting the experiment for 1,000,000 X (number of fruit flies in wild/number of fruit flies in labaratory) years.
In other words for longer than the age of the known Universe.
The Ames test is something Creationists seem to ignore. It would not work if beneficial mutations could not be counted on to occur.
Creationists ignore A LOT. If we could make them stronger, we'd finally have a use for them to help with the environment – drawing carriages of tourists around the city.
Ive4Him, become more familiar with evolutionary biology and evolutionary dynamics in fields other than biology. Creationist literature is frankly dishonest and repetitive. Why repeat it? It doesn't serve your Lord for you to appear ill-informed and perhaps dishonest yourself.
Your blind faith causes you accept a LEAP over the Grand Canyon of doubt to reach a belief in evolution.
Your blind faith causes you to waste any of the education that you claim to have received, willful ignorance is your current condition.
Actually, today I wish evolution were not a fact. I'm putting together data that shows that a target gene in the hepatitis C virus for a potential new drug to treat it changes rapidly when under selection pressure by the drug in ways that make the virus resistant. The population changes so rapidly it looks like the drug would have limited uses.
Evolution is a fact. The theories are in development just like gravity, the theories of gravity are still getting improved but that doesn't invalidate the phenomenon of gravity. There is more evidence supporting evolution that the evidence supporting Newton's law of gravity.
For the Evangelical, the "facts," when they conflict with belief, are Satan's lies.
It was, afterall, C.S. Lewis who said that where other religions differ from Christianity, they are wrong and Christianity is right.
In the Christian apologist mind, this statement applies to the facts of Evolution.
Without empirical evidence, only blind faith can cause a person to a LEAP over the Grand Canyon of doubt to reach a belief in evolution.
And thus, Live4Him provides us with a window into his inability to think....ahhh, the bliss of ignorance and its corresponding arrogance.
There is a tremendous amount of empirical evidence for evolution. I have posted too much of it on this blog, people complaign the posts are too long. Google evidence for evolution.
Here's something you may be able to understand – third grade math. The world's population of fruit flies would be measured in the billions. For a lab to "force mutation upon fruit flies – culminating in more than a million years of mutations" this would mean conducting the experiment for 1,000,000 X (number of fruit flies in wild/number of fruit flies in labaratory) years.
In other words for longer than the age of the known Universe.
Sired Colin...
There are more big bang universes within the Infinite Nothingness of Spatial Isms then there are grains of sand upon all the beaches...
Cue Dippy
I think what L4H is trying to say is that his brain is as clean as an unevolved newly born mutated fruit fly climbing out of its nest of irradiated feces...
..Ye must be born again...after all
"Steve Schmidt, the political adviser who suggested that John McCain choose a fresh new face from Alaska as his running mate, now says he has “deep regret” for his role in helping to bring on the “freak show that’s been running wild for four years” in American politics."
Did anybody read about the dropped wallets test. They dropped 12 wallets in 12 different cities. The results from most honest (most wallets returned) had atheist/secular Helsinki, Finaland, Amsterdam, Netherlands, Moscow, Russia, New York City and Hindu Mumbai near the top.
Three of the bottom were heavilly Catholic Lisbon, Portugal, Madrid Span and Rio de Janeiro in Brazil..
It seems that the more secular and atheist a city is, the more honest it is. Catholics, I guess, are more likely to be theives.
they know they can steal and then go to confession and be forgiven ... it's flawless! 🙂
what a crock!
Poor, as well. It's sad.
Which, of course, is the real distinguishing fact – I assume they chose an affluant part of Mumbai.
It's nice to be able to get forgiveness for just about anything, how comforting.
The opulence of the Vatican and TBN studios and the televangelists' homes confirm this...
Getcher indulgences right here!
Brand name forgiveness at discount prices!
lol...Good to see you, Doc.
When did I realize I was God?
Well, I was praying and I suddenly realized that I was talking to myself ...
Internal is God in Celestially Terrestrial Life's Ways and we are all being profoundly made toward becoming the external consequences of Godly entrusted internal variables...
Hello LL, you crazy old fuck.
Juice kwantung kochi overbook sphygmogram appraisingly terminating xenodiagnostic dichterliebe unmisanthropical unobtruding criticalness grinner xanthophyll diazotized
You know what would be fun? Go back in time and save Jesus’ life and then return to the present and see how different the world is.
or go back and film his cult leaders taking the body from the cave ...
Cue Josh MacDowell's "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" answer to this...his and Strobel's pathetic answer....among other's.
Don't do that. If you "save His life" our sins wouldn't have been paid for.
Topher, it would be fascinating!
Not sure what would be fascinating about EVERYONE going to Hell. Of course, being that it was all a part of His plan to die then, you wouldn't have been able to stop it even if you wanted to.
Why would everyone go to hell?
Madtown
Do you know the Gospel? Do you know why Christ died on the cross?
Are you going to tell me everyone goes to hell without Christ? Did God create christianity, and is it God's desire that all of humanity follow it?
Madtown
"Are you going to tell me everyone goes to hell without Christ?"
Yes. We have all sinned and deserve punishment for breaking His laws. Christ came to die in our place ... to take our punishment — pay our fine, if you will. And then He defeated death by rising three days later. If He did not do that, we'd be doomed on judgment day. So yes, everyone must call on the name of Christ to be saved.
"Did God create christianity, and is it God's desire that all of humanity follow it?"
Yes. He does desire that. The Bible says that it's not His will that any should perish.
Yes. He does desire that
------
And, we come back to the logical problem you have no answer for, no way around. God desires all of humanity to follow christianity, yet doesn't provide a way for all of humanity to learn of it? Very curious. God is seemingly quite powerful, creating this world and all life within is an impressive feat. Seems to me God can do most anything he wants. He clearly does NOT want to provide everyone with the knowledge of christianity.
Cue Romans 1:20 and Matthew 28
Madtown
"And, we come back to the logical problem you have no answer for, no way around."
I reject that. It might not be a popular answer, or even an easy one, but there is one.
"God desires all of humanity to follow christianity, yet doesn't provide a way for all of humanity to learn of it?"
He has commanded us to go out into the world and preach the Gospel. Are some of us not following this? Yep. Are there others making a hinderance to it? Yep. Are atheist governments making it illegal to preach Christ, bring Bibles in or even possess a Bible or attend a church service? Yep.
Toph got Matthew 28...anyone for Romans 1:20?
He has commanded us to go out into the world and preach the Gospel.
-------
Thank for another days worth of comedic musings. He has? You know this because it's written in the bible? I'll just say it again because it's amusing, you fool: God didn't write the bible, it doesn't contain his words. Have you ever read Matthew 6:6?
Madtown
" But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."
What does this have to do with what we are talking about?
Madtown
"He has?"
Yes.
"You know this because it's written in the bible?"
Yep.
"I'll just say it again because it's amusing, you fool: God didn't write the bible, it doesn't contain his words."
He wrote it through man. So ... He did.
.....thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."
-----
You're to keep your personal acknowledgment of God behind closed doors, so your true intentions are not corrupted. Doesn't seem like you're commanded to take your message to everyone at all, you're supposed to keep it to yourself. Besides, just go ahead and try and track down the humans we refer to who haven't heard of christianity, you wouldn't even know where to start to look. But God would, he put them where they are. It's not your job. You're job is to make us laugh.
He wrote it through man. So ... He did.
-------
You have an extraordinary thick head, and I'm a broken record. Yes.......of course he "wrote it through" man, those men said so! Topher = King of the Gullible
again, gopher is threatening hell?
gopher, your god is a impotent little pr1ck
so are you
Madtown
"You're to keep your personal acknowledgment of God behind closed doors, so your true intentions are not corrupted."
You're to pray in secret. You're still to preach to everyone. Jesus told us to pray in secret because the pharisees would stand on street corners and pray loudly in order to look like they were more godly than anyone else. This passage has nothing to do with spreading the Gospel.
....look like they were more godly than anyone else
-----–
Sounds like our favorite unintentional comedian here, you.
Never claimed to be so. I'm just trying to get you "atheists" to know what you are rejecting.
"Paul" said "pray without ceasing" (1 Thess. 5:17) and many pastors and commentators equate that with breathing...
So, Toph, Mad is on to something there...
S-3B Viking
""Paul" said "pray without ceasing" (1 Thess. 5:17) and many pastors and commentators equate that with breathing..."
Very true. We should do that. But again, that's praying. We don't need to pray out loud so that others hear. But you're still to preach the Gospel to everyone.
I'm not an atheist, but I'm also not a dumba__. Try really hard to get it through your thick head: you can't possibly reject something you don't know exists. God doesn't care if you're a christian or not. Why? He didn't provide the means to be a christian to every human he created. Pretty simple, even for someone as cognitively challenged as you.
thus Toph provides us with window seat into the mind of a scriptural literalist...unable and/or unwilling to think beyond the typeset....
Mad...when your face starts turning blue, let me know.
Madtown
"you can't possibly reject something you don't know exists."
But YOU have access to a Bible. YOU have access to the Gospel. So you can't really use that excuse.
Mad...when your face starts turning blue, let me know.
-----
LOL! It's all entertainment. Interacting with him, you have to see the comedy in it, otherwise you could blow a gasket! I'm quite calm, just highly entertained.
So you can't really use that excuse.
------
Is your skull actually increasing in thickness as you age? It's not about me, it's about the other humans that God has WILLINGLY denied access to christianity. Therefore, he must not care whether or not they follow it. I knew this was too advanced a concept for you.
Mad....roger that! Lol!
I used to be a Topher and I took special pleasure at the frustration of those who were trying to excise some logic out of me...I was certain that it was the conviction of the Holy Spirit that was causing their frustration....I could never acknowledge that they might be right because my tenuous faith (which all of these have a very fear-filled, tenuous faith...though they don't have the courage to admit it)
So, my mistake on thinking it was frustrating for you.
It certainly used to be frustrating, I guess still can be at times. But, interacting with his type long enough, you just learn that it doesn't go anywhere, and really is only worth a laugh. What's the classic line, "you can't reason some people out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into to begin with"? Something like that. Cheers!
Mad...very true...my end came from within, when I read one Christian groups arguments against my groups' specific (and superior) beliefs....the cognitive dissonance began then and the dominoes fell shortly after.
I never considered anything an atheist said or wrote because they were decieved by the devil.
Even if time travel was possible, one would not be able to travel back in time to save someone's life. It could be possible to save them from death temporarily, but they would either die another way, or you could die trying. HG Wells had it right with "The Time Machine".
Well....this was fun. Always nice to stir the pot and let the "smart" people scatter about and apologizing for their errors.
I've seen comments saying that people of science have faith just like religious people. Scientists have faith in their theories and models because they are not proven. That may be true, but a scientists faith is not the same as a religious person's faith.
A scientist or engineer may have faith that they can apply an equation and the system will work or the model represents reality well. They have this faith because it was tested and succeeded. I.e. their faith is consistent with tested results.
Religious faith is much different, it is much deeper. Religious people have faith in their model not only without evidence, but with mountains of evidence contrary to their dogma.
As Sagan said, reason did not lead them to their beliefs, so no amount of reason will dislodge them from them.
Deep down, many religious people know their beliefs are total BS, but, driven by fear of death, they cling to them like frightened children to a blanket.
It is astonishing how childish adults can be.
well said Sir!
why praise a post that quotes from an atheist?
Using the words of someone in the same cult as you, who is just as deluded as you, to prove your point is hilarious!
@bostontola : You claim that a miracle can occur without breaking natural law, you simply have a low bar for miracles
Well, I followed the dictionary definition. What do you want to follow?
miracle
: an unusual or wonderful event that is believed to be caused by the power of God
: a very amazing or unusual event, thing, or achievement
See, nothing here about physical laws, is there?
@ME II : Healing someone while remaining within physical laws is called medicine (or perhaps biology) and, I would think, by definition, not a miracle.
See my response to bostontola.
When you can provide criteria that fits within the dictionary definition, then we can discuss this further.
Fit, not fits. Criteria is plural.
@Dippy : Fit, not fits. Criteria is plural.
Fits is plural because criteria is plural. If I'd said criterion then I would have used fit. I cannot require that only one criterion be provided, as my opponent may wish to have two or more requirements.
So you think you would say "they fits" not "they fit". Hmmm
L4H is bat-fit crazy!
Live4Him,
"Fits is plural because criteria is plural."
You have it backwards.
Shoe is singular; so we say, "The shoe fits".
Shoes – plural; so we say, "The shoes fit."
This might be a little too deep for Liv4Him.
Too low of a bar for me.
So you admit you a-priori beliefs hinder your objectivity.
We're all human.
oh L4H, you poor simple individual ...
And you think yours don't?
Something that can only have been caused by the unique power of God.
an unusual or wonderful event that is believed to be caused by the power of God.
That is completely circular reasoning, I believe it was caused by the power of god, therefore it was caused by the power of god and was a miracle. This kind of poor critical thinking shouldn't be used by adults.
Which response?
@Live4Him,
"See my response to bostontola."
Which response?
Does God believe in Himself?
What if God isn't self-aware?
How could you suspect He ISN'T self-aware? He gave us 66 books. Spoke personally with a number of prophets. Came in the flesh to pay our ransom and then defeat death. And the Holy Spirit even comes to dwell within those of us who are saved.
Topher, when are you going to give me my answers? Do you intend to?
Can you describe the Holy Spirit that has come to dwell within you, Topher?
Topher, I have no reason to believe anything you said is true.
What I find far more interesting though is the prospect that some kind of "creator" could create without knowing, or even being aware of it's own existence. That would be cool.
more conjecture from topher
Athy
As soon as you respond to my request.
Don't change the subject, Topher. Just answer the questions. If you can't or won't, just say so.
Athy
I can and I would, provided you do as I requested. You keep ignoring it. I think it's a pretty fair offer. If you refuse, just say so.
Athy
What are you afraid of?
you never provide evidence, gopher
you avoid direct questions
you are not only a coward, you are a pompous one
but, thanks continuing to show us your insanity
i got people of faith in my life, and i got no problem with them
you are a bloviating coward
fvck you and your petty, vindictive pr1ck god
Tom, Tom, the Other One
"Can you describe the Holy Spirit that has come to dwell within you, Topher?"
Depends on what you mean. Did I see Him? No, He's spirit. Can I describe for you the evidence that He is there? Yes.
barking mad!
Evidence would be interesting.
Is that the same as having imaginary friends when you were a child because nobody could stand to be around you Topher? The holy spirit makes Topher feel good much like a wet dream might.
Cue...."Ever seen the wind...no, but you've seen the effect it has on the trees, right?"
Benny Hinn uses that one all the time.
Wind has nothing to do with this.
Ahhhh...Toph...despite all of your claims that Scripture is taken out of context when an atheist uses it against your arguments, you can't comprehend "context" when it blows against you like a Nor' Easter.
I don't care if the person is an atheist or a Christian ... if you take a verse out of context, that's their fault they are wrong, not God's.
Whose context, Toph?
S-3B Viking
What do you mean?
Toph...I like you...I see so much of me when I was a Christian in you....
Just go to a large Christian bookstore or to a bible college bookstore and count how many different biblical commentary sets there are or how many different commentary bibles there are on the shelves.
Context is in the eye of the beholder.
Historical grammatical.
There will always be outliers who don't have the ability to critically think for themselves. I see a few people on this blog actually claim that atheism is a religion, but I must assume that is a low percentage of religious people who would think such a sloppy thought.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbJHOnkFimg
Another interview with cognitive scientist Dan Dennett on consciousness, free will, and related issues in the philosophy of mind.
Good afternoon, my atheist friends!
Good afternoon.
How are you doing?
good afternoon, my cowardly sycophant
What's up T? Save any souls today?
Hey, Apple!
As you know, I can't save anyone.
no, all you can do is purport to speak for god, blather empty proxy threats and evade questions whose logical answers do not agree with your belief system
you do not cast christians in a positive light, but then you don't care because YOU speak for god
Topher. Why do fish and salamanders that live in dark caves all their lives have rudimentary eyes under their skin?
Topher. Why did the creator design vertebrate eyes so obviously wrong?
Topher. Why do dandelions (and some other plants as well) have flowers and pollen, but need neither one to reproduce?
At least they seemed to have put Mother Theresa's sainthood to the side.
Contrary to popular opinion, she wasn't a very nice woman.
But she took dying kids off the streets and crammed them into crummy buildings, refused them sterile medicine and pain medications and let them die inside!
Not to mention using the money donated to her by people thinking she'd help the sick and poor to build convents.
Remember kids, horrible, debilitating, crippling, painful disease is nothing more than Jesus kissing you.
Nationalism without the aggregates of Religiosity are pathetically disproportional aggregations of individualized mental improprieties upon one's willing conscience being ever so unruly stationed within many circular reasoning episodes of minded social proclamations found beleaguered upon one's psychic self toward the many labeled bridling social venues one affords one to be found self-perceived within...
Be one the aggregate or the aggregation is where one and all are espoused being absurdly; the lemming confrontationist... No matter the issues of differences, the cliff's edge is ever getting so much closer and then one takes the plunge being ever the more gone... We all have come to this world in successively generational similarities... I am but a Naturalist and await my natural demise and departure from this world's individualist refineries and socialist distilleries... Know not I God yet my hopes are held tightly to someday and time know God... Not within this Celestially Terrestrial Life should God evermore become of its living ways... Internal is God in Life's Ways an we are all the external consequences of internal variables...
This guy just won!
@Alias : I see people asking for facts. I'll give you some: The bible is flawed.
You've confused facts with your opinion. What facts can you provide to support your conclusion that the Bible is flawed?
Page 1. God made the light. Then god made the sun. Light comes from the sun. Ergo, the bible is flawed from the very first paragraph. Shall we keep going?
This may shock you but Light does not equal Sun.
Earth created before the sun, plants created before the sun, a bat is a bird, birds created before land animals...
Can you name a natural light source other than stars?
"Earth created before the sun, plants created before the sun, a bat is a bird, birds created before land animals..."
That's better. At least you are thinking about stuff before giving a half baked answer like numbnuts up there.
Though of course, the Torah was never designed to be a science book.
LOL. This guy is calling me numbnuts but thinks there is a natural light source other than stars!
@Anon
The problem is that many people treat it as The Truth – inerrant, literal, factual and historical.
The Bible is a collection of morality tales compiled over many centuries by countless scribes.
It is no more historical reality than The Epic of Gilgamesh or Beowulf.
Ahhh, in lighting a planet it does, unless you can point to another source of light in the cosmos.
Not sure where you guys are headed with this but there are plenty of non-star light sources, e.g. bioluminescense (sp?), combustion, lightening, most things will glow given sufficient temperature, etc.
Perhaps you means "morning and evening" before the sun, day 1. That would, by definition, be contradictory.
ReligionIsBS- "This guy is calling me numbnuts but thinks there is a natural light source other than stars!"
Oh you poor little twit. Can you not make a ssumptions? Did I say there was any natural light sources other than the stars> Nope, I did not.
But it's ok, foolishness seems to work for you.
Foolishness seems to work for you....said the guy who beleives in an invisible man in the sky and talking snakes! You cant make this kind of stupid up!
Hey munbnuts, name another natural light source other than the stars! No wonder you beleive in talking snakes!
I don't believe in talking snakes any more than you do.
Natural light? Why are you regulating this to "natural" light? You do realize that the text does not make it specific the nature of the "light" referenced right? Think about it.
You dont beleive in talking snakes, but you beleive the bible, which has talking snakes? LOL!
"You do realize that the text does not make it specific the nature of the "light" referenced right? Think about it."
LOL. So what was the light made out of if it wasnt a star? how did god light the earth? Did he just flip a switch? What happened when he hit the switch, where did enough light come from to light the entire world if it wasnt the sun!
"You dont beleive in talking snakes,"
Nope.
"but you beleive the bible, which has talking snakes? LOL!"
Nope 😉
"LOL. So what was the light made out of if it wasnt a star?"
The text is talking about a supernatural being creating everything. Why does the light have to be natural?
I would watch the "lols", they are making you seem pretty simple at the moment.
LOL.
It wasnt the sun, but it was some other form of light, that hasnt been in use since.
LOL!
Oh Come ON BS!
Didn't you know God is a three-way bulb....120/90/60 watt?
The "Trinity"?
Where's your "LOL!" now, you simpleton!
lol...
"It wasnt the sun, but it was some other form of light, that hasnt been in use since."
Really? The Tanakh implies it has.
How is that possible when it wasnt even defined what it was in the first place? Do you have any idea of what you are even arguing anymore?
"How is that possible when it wasnt even defined what it was in the first place?"
Yet you have been arguing this for how many posts?
"Do you have any idea of what you are even arguing anymore?"
I know quite well and the results are quite amusing. Though watching psuedo-intellectuals hopping from one foot to another usually is amusing.
I'll give you a hint:
Any story that involves magic is fictional.
Any story of the origins of the universe involves "magic" whether it comes with the label of "Religion" or "science." The reson that I say this, is that the very nature of origins is that it is beyond science – it isn't observable, testable, repeatable... So don't mock something just because it is "supernatural," for that is exactly what origins are...
Your obsession with testing the origins of the universe only proves you have no idea what you are talking about.
It is not necessary to actually re-create every event to test the theory.
"So don't mock something just because it is "supernatural," for that is exactly what origins are..."
Origins are supernatural? Care to show proof of that statement?
Sure... The point of origins is where the laws of physics break down. (think quantum mechanics, singularities, etc) Hence – supernatural.
Just because we do not have 100% of the scientific origin of the universe does not make that origin "supernatural". In fact, I believe our origin to be very natural, just a part of nature we have yet to discover and understand.
"in fact, I believe..."
Exactly my point.
Quantum mechanics are not supernatural, they are just not completely understood yet. Sp oo ky action at a distance would at first seem to be supernatural, however it may be as natural in the quantum world as turning on a light with a lightswitch, which at first might seem like magic to one who has never seen one, but once explained becomes almost simple.
"The point of origins is where the laws of physics break down"
Care to show any proof for that ridiculous statement?
Just becuase we dont know something, doesnt mean its supernatural. People used to think it was supernatural when it rained. We now know why it rains. Does that mean that it rains because someone did a rain dance? No. it wasnt ever supernatural and still isnt. The only thing that changes is now we know why.
@Lawrence of Arabia,
First, some of the multiverse hypotheses may in fact be testable, e.g. http://www.technologyreview.com/view/421999/astronomers-find-first-evidence-of-other-universes/ is one possibility of evidence.
Second, while current models predict a break-down of most physical laws at extreme temperature and pressure, quantum gravity may not be one of them. In other words, there may yet be physical laws that account for a quantum singularity and subsequent Big Bang having occurred "naturally", i.e. within the laws of physics/nature.
MEII
http://www.gotquestions.org/multiverse-theory.html
I can post links too!
@Lawrence of Arabia,
Good for you! Unfortunately your posting doesn't seem to be connected to a question or a response in a direct way.
Mine, on the other hand, was disputing your claim that other universes would be an untestable hypothesis, by presenting a link that was claim exactly that – testable evidence of another universe.
MEII,
Then you didn't read the link.
And about your link – no, it's not testable... All they managed to do is slap a guess onto an observation with no verifyable way of proving their guess.
@Lawrence of Arabia,
"Then you didn't read the link."
Sorry, I dion't think reading it was required, since all you said was "I can post links too!", which was self-evident.
"And about your link – no, it's not testable..."
Are you claiming that no test exists?
Yeah, because all they have are formulae, and they can make observations of the current state of the universe. Since they cannot run tests on the actual origins of the universe, then all they can do is make assumptions about what, how, and when things might have been, based on how things are now. There's a LOT of assumptions in there my friend, and science that is based upon assumptions with no verifyable observations is no science at all.
obvious when the "witnessing" of such comes from say oh about 500 people with no names who didn't leave any kind of evidence themselves.
someone says they heard about the 500. Paul – the Joseph Smith of his time.
Exactly! Where are the photos? videos? References? Logical explanations? Not very convincing, is it?
You are speaking of the witnesses of the resurrection? Well, by the way that Paul wrote that passage in Corinthians, many of those witnesses were still alive, and Paul could point them in the right direction if they wanted to speak to them. After all, Corinth was a far piece from Jerusalem, and the point of the book wasn't to give a list of 500 names...
Lawrence of Arabia,
Paul was a salesman and PR expert. Truth in advertising wasn't around in those days. "More doctors prefer Bayer Aspirin" finally had to put up the stats.
The vast majority of Hebrews living at the time (even in nearby locations) did not buy his pitch, even as much as they hungered for a Messiah.
".. many of those witnesses were still alive, and Paul could point them in the right direction if they wanted to speak to them."
Lawrence of Arabia,
Paul was a salesman and PR expert. I don't know how many tents he sold, but he seemed to pull this one off. Truth in advertising wasn't around in those days. "More doctors prefer Bayer Aspirin" finally had to put up the stats.
The vast majority of Hebrews living at the time (even in nearby locations) did not buy his pitch, even as much as they hungered for a Messiah... and perhaps some (or many) of them did go looking for these "witnesses" before rejecting the story.
What that meant was that when Paul was writing to the Corinthians, the witnesses to the resurrection (back in Jerusalem) were still alive, and Paul could point the Corinthians to the Jews to question them about the resurrection. It just took fewer words to say it the way I did before.
Commenter,
In order to make absolute statements like that, you would have to have proof that Paul was lying. He was a witness. In the same way that witnesses are called to testify before court, Paul was testifying to what he saw.
You may want to look into how unreliable eyewitness evidence really is, LofA. Paul based all his writings on hearsay and folklore and as said before the belief and yearning for a Messiah. BTW there were numerous hustlers roaming around in that area claiming they were the REAL messiah, good scams go back a long way.
a lot of tombs in various states of repair and usage in the area and the time...
1. Astronomy: First we deal with Astronomy., The Bible speaks about the creation of the universe. In the beginning, 1st Book, Book of Genesis, 1st Ch., it is mentioned – It says… ‘Almighty God created the Heavens and the Earth, in six days and talks about a evening and a morning, referring to a 24 – hour day. Today scientists tell us, that the universe cannot be created in a 24 hour period of six days.
2. The Bible says in Genesis Ch. No. 1 Verses No. 3 and 5,…‘Light was created on the first day.’ Genesis, Ch., 1 Verses, 14 to 19… ‘The cause of light – stars and the sun, etc. was created on the fourth day’. How can the cause of light be created on the 4th day – later than the light which came into existence on the first day? – It is unscientific.
3. Further, the, Bible says Genesis, Ch. 1, Verses 9 to 13… ‘Earth was created on the 3rd day. How can you have a night and day without the earth ? The day depends upon the rotation of the Earth Without the earth created, how can you have a night and day?
4. Genesis, Ch. No. 1 Verses 9 to 13 says… ‘Earth was created on the third day.’ Genesis Ch. No. 1 Verses 14 to 19 says…‘The Sun and the Moon were created on the fourth day.’ Today science tells us… ‘Earth is part of the parent body… the sun.’ It cannot come into existence before the sun – It is unscientific.
5. The Bible says in Genesis, Ch. No.1, Verse No. 11 to 13…‘The vegetation, the herbs the shrubs, the trees – they were created on the 3rd day And the Sun, Genesis, Ch. No. 1, Verses. 14 to 19, was created on the 4th day.How can the vegetation come into existence without sunlight, and how can they survive without sunlight ?
6. The Bible says in Genesis, Ch. 1, Verses No.16, that…‘God created two lights the greater light, the Sun to rule the day, and the lesser light the Moon, to rule the night. The actual translation, if you go to the Hebrew text, it is ‘lamps’…‘Lamps having lights of its own.’ And that you will come to know better, if you read both the Verses – Genesis, Ch. No.1, Verse. 16, as well as 17. Verse No.17 says…‘And Almighty God placed them in the firmament, to give light to the earth… To give light to the earth.’ Indicating, that Sun and the Moon has its own light – which is in contradiction with established scientific knowledge that we have.
7.It is mentioned in the Bible, in the book of Hebrews, Ch. No.1 Verses No.10 and 11, and the book of Psalms, Ch. No.102, Verse No.25 and 26, that…‘Almighty God created the Heavens and the Earth, and they will perish.’ Exactly opposite is mentioned in the book of Ecclesiastics, Ch. No.1, Verse No.4, and the book of Psalms, Ch. No.78, Verse No.69, that… ‘The earth will abide forever.’ Which will take place? The Earth will perish or abide forever? The both can't take place. It's unscientific!
8. In the field of ‘Diet and Nutrition’ lets analyse, what does the Bible say. The Bible says in the book of Genesis, Ch. No.1, Verse No.29, that… ‘God has given you all the herbs bearing seeds, the trees bearing fruits – those that bear seed, as meat for you.’ New International Version says… ‘The seed bearing plants, and the trees bearing fruits bearing seeds are food for you, all of them.’ Today, even a layman knows that there are several poisonous plants like wild berries, stritchi, datura, plants containing alkaloid, polyander, bacaipoid – that which if you ingest, if you eat there are high possibilities you may die. How come the Creator of the universe and the human beings, does not know, that if you have these plants, you will die.
Hmmm, where to start. Ok, the lowest of low hanging fruit. The entire Universe is not less than 10,000 years old, nor was there ever a Worldwide flood that wiped out all of humanity except two of every creature, nor did people ever live to be 500 plus years old, nor did a snake ever talk, nor a donkey for that matter. Nor did a man live for three days in a whale's belly.
To hear a donkey talk, just watch CSPAN!!!! OK, that was low, I know, but I couldn't help myself... 😉
"The entire Universe is not less than 10,000 years old,"
Bible never said it is 10,000 years old. In fact, the Bible never offers any age for the Universe.
"nor was there ever a Worldwide flood that wiped out all of humanity except two of every creature,"
Subjective, there are theories of a significant flood in the region due to a breach in the Black Sea. From a person in that flood with limited knowledge of the size of the world..it would seem to be global.
"nor did people ever live to be 500 plus years old,"
Yes....highly unlikely.
"nor did a snake ever talk,"
Bible never said a snake talked.
"nor a donkey for that matter."
Correction, you never witnessed a donkey talking, therefor you a ssume that the writing is incorrect.
"Nor did a man live for three days in a whale's belly."
Bible never said whale.
You're right Anon, the Bible doesn't say "snake" – it says "serpent".
Those two words aren't synonymns or anything.
The YEC theories come from adding up all the "begats" in Genesis (taking into account the 1,000 year life spans of God's first creations, of course).
What do you think the likelihood of a talking donkey is?
Do you believe there could have been a one off equine mutation in which a single specimen developed not only vocal chords, but also the cognitive capacity to form coherent speech?
Just becuase you've never seen a penguin fly doesn't mean that there isn't one or two that fly south for the winter, right?
Jonah and the big fish story... the worst excuse given to an angry wife Monday morning after not seeing her husband since Thursday? Or the best excuse?...
I'm sure the wife thought something smelled fishy...
Easy there Doccy, just pointing out the silliness of not trying to even use proper terms.
"The entire Universe is not less than 10,000 years old,"
Bible never said it is 10,000 years old. In fact, the Bible never offers any age for the Universe.
Oh BS. It traces the entire history of the Jews from Adam down to Jesus step by step – just look at Luke's genealogy.
"nor was there ever a Worldwide flood that wiped out all of humanity except two of every creature,"
Subjective, there are theories of a significant flood in the region due to a breach in the Black Sea. From a person in that flood with limited knowledge of the size of the world..it would seem to be global.
In which case it was flawed in claiming it was worldwide!! And what about the ark and animals, you ignorde that part.
"nor did people ever live to be 500 plus years old,"
Yes....highly unlikely.
So, again the bible is flawed when it claims it happened.
"nor did a snake ever talk,"
Bible never said a snake talked.
YEs it did. "Serpent" is a snake. That's why it was condemned to crawl on its belly. I don't know why some people try and draw this distinction – a sif a talking serpent that is not a snake is any less silly.
"nor a donkey for that matter."
Correction, you never witnessed a donkey talking, therefor you a ssume that the writing is incorrect.
And you don't think that is silly?
"Nor did a man live for three days in a whale's belly."
Bible never said whale.
Well, it did in English after Jerome translated ketos megas as cetus (“whale") when interpreting the Setuagint from Greek to Latin and the King James editors used a derivative of it. But, again, is living in the belly of a "great fish" any less silly and implausible?
What the bible says:
Adam & Eve were the first humans God created and we are all descended from them.
What science says:
Our DNA proves we did not descend from a single pair of pre-made ho mosapians.
What the bible says:
A global flood wiped all but a handful of humans off the planet within the last 10,000 years.
What science says:
According to the geological evidence no global flood has ever occured.
What the bible says:
The first humans created by God had extremely long life spans and lived to 800 or 900 years of age.
What science says:
The earliest ho mosapian burials and evidence of their early culture show they had relative life spans to us and because of limited medicinal knowledge and harsh conditions of early human life lived between 35 and 50 years of age on average with no larger percent of remains being over the age of 40 than their neanderthal cousins.
What the bible says:
"13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
14 And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the Lord hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the Lord fought for Israel." Joshua 10:13,14
What science says:
Inertia is the resistance of any physical object to any change in its motion (including a change in direction). In other words, it is the tendency of objects to keep moving in a straight line at constant linear velocity, or to keep still. The principle of inertia is one of the fundamental principles of classical physics that are used to describe the motion of objects and how they are affected by externally applied forces. Because of inertia one can understand that stopping the motion of the earth in its rotation would have dramatic and deadly consequences for the planet. To perform this trick with magic so that your small tribe of chosen people can kill more of their enemies would be beyond silly.
christians confuse facts with opinions all the time
what evidence can you provide that the bible is NOT flawed?
I see people asking for facts. I'll give you some:
The bible is flawed.
The christian faith is logically flawed as well.
The catholic church has a history that they should be ashamed of.
The Catholic church is more concerned with power than salvation.
Young people are thinking for themselves and using modern technology to make the decision to leave the church.
How is it flawed?
How is faith flawed?
Did anyone say that the people of the church are infallible?
Evidence that they want power more?
Young people leaving does not mean they are correct in their thinking.
If we all descended from Adam and Eve, and then again from the one family on the arc –
where did all these races come from?
Where did all the religions come from?
Until that bush spoke to Moses no one knew who god was. Think about it.
"Until that bush spoke to Moses no one knew who god was. Think about it."
I think you are in error. You are not including the Patriarchs into this.
I love the way christards select only a part of a post to reply to.
Until Moses showed up with the 10 commandments, no one knew exactly what the rules were.
they didn't really know what god wanted of them.
they didn't know god.
Wow, you are a judgmental little twit aren't you? I hope you are keeping your trollish behavior ready when non-religious people do not respond to all of a post.
I merely pointed out that you were incorrect. You could have just accepted that fact but instead you resort to name calling. When did I ever say I was christian?
When did you become a moderator on here and require people to answer everything you sputter out?
Let's be honest. You have NO idea what the forebearers of the Jews knew or thought. You are not an anthropologist or and archaeologist.
You decide to use the Torah in your argument, sorry but you can't whine about it when someone corrects you on your mistakes from it. The belief in the God of Israel predates Moses according to the Torah.
"How is it flawed?"
You've never read the bible if you havent noticed its flawed, which begs the question, then why are you even a christian. The bible has 1,000's of errors. Even from the first paragraph. See my explanation of light from above.
"How is faith flawed?"
Faith is beleiving in something without evidence. That is the very definition of flawed.
"Did anyone say that the people of the church are infallible?"
No, but if they arent here to tell the truth, then what are they for?
"Evidence that they want power more?"
Read about the Inquistions. Reading isnt hard.
"Young people leaving does not mean they are correct in their thinking."
Gullible fools staying doesnt mean they are correct either.
Never said it wasn't flawed but it would be polite to give an example other than a ssume everyone knows what they are talking about.
Do you count subjective evidence?
I think you are confused by intention of telling the truth and purposely lying.
Ah, so you are taking something from centuries ago and applying it to the now....you horrible slave trader you.
Seems like they cancel each other out then.