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October 4th, 2013
10:25 AM ET
Poll: American Catholics agree with pope about culture warsBy Dan Merica, CNN Washington (CNN) – American Catholics overwhelmingly support newly installed Pope Francis, according to a poll released Friday, and agree with his statements that the church should focus less on contentious social issues. Nearly seven in 10 American Catholics say the church has become too focused on same-sex marriage, abortion, and contraceptives, according to a Quinnipiac University national poll released Friday. What's more, 60% of American Catholics support same-sex marriage, a number that continues to be larger than support from all American adults. Thirty-one percent of American Catholics said they do not support same-sex marriage. This number is consistent with other polls, like a Public Religion Research Institute poll in 2012 that found 59% of American Catholics support same-sex marriage. Despite the support among American Catholics, the Roman Catholic Church maintains rigorous opposition to same-sex marriage. But in a recent wide-ranging interview with America Magazine, the pope brushed off critics who have said he should be more vocal in trumpeting the church's position on abortion and same-sex marriage. In the interview, Francis said if the church fails to find a "new balance" between its spiritual and political missions, its moral foundation will "fall like a house of cards." “We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods," he told his Jesuit interviewer. "I have not spoken much about these things, and I was reprimanded for that." But the pope said the church's teachings on those issues are clear, and he clearly believes in those teachings, so what else is there to say? "It is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time," Francis said. The poll also found 36% of American Catholics say abortion should be legal in most cases, compared to 34% of all Americans. “On the two issues that have prompted some pulpit thundering, same-sex marriage and abortion, Catholics are right in line, or even a little ahead, of their non-Catholic neighbors,” said Maurice Carroll, director of the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute. While the poll shows support for Francis' statement on social issues, American Catholics appear to disagree with the pope on the ordination of female priests. According to the survey, 60% of American Catholics support women priests, while 30% are against it. Earlier this year, Francis emphatically closed the door on women's ordination, telling an audience that the "door is closed" to that possibility. In his recent interview, Francis reiterated this statement but said that does not mean the church should see women as secondary or inferior. "Women are asking deep questions that must be addressed," the pope said. "The church cannot be herself without the woman and her role." Overall, American Catholics are roundly supportive of the new pope, with a whopping 89% saying they have either a very favorable or favorable view of Francis. Only 4% say they have an unfavorable view. Quinnipiac interviewed 392 Catholics by telephone from September 23-29. The poll has a sampling error of plus or minus 2.3 percentage points. - CNN's Eric Marrapodi and Daniel Burke contributed to this report.
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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2013 and still so many believe in a super being overlord, who of course is a male, surprise surprise.
When will we ever be free of this cloak of ignorance?
Competing religions keep most of us bound to picking sides, never will there be planetary unity. Not as long as people bend at the knees or touch their head to the ground in supplication to an overlord that has never once shown itself and actually helped us.
I weep for humanity, shackled, tainted by old ways.
Anyway...
BOW!!!
YIELD!!!!
KNEEL!!!
AND GIVE ME YOUR MONEY, ERR UMM, I MEAN DONATIONS!!!!
And if you follow the pedophile Mohammed....
GIVE ME YOUR LITTLE GIRLS, I LIKE THE YOUNG STUFF!!!!
Oh sorry I am supposed to be tolerant. Why? As long as I am not hitting with a rock because of your beliefs, then I will continue to use my voice against such foolishness.
There are no new ways. Hasn't science taught you anything?
of course there are new ways - hasn't science taught YOU anything?
name one
a new way of dealing with infection is antibiotics.
airplanes are a new way of traveling.
3d printers are a new way of printing
how many examples do you want?
Antibodies didn't exist before they were discovered?
Aerodynamics were created when the wing was invented?
Carving wheels out of stone just got fancier.
none of this is new, just repackaged. Just like "new" social ideas are only regurgitation of old ones that the current crowd has forgotten don't work.
Antibodies didn't exist before they were discovered?
+++ had man ever used antibiotics to treat infection before?
Aerodynamics were created when the wing was invented?
+++ had man ever used flight as a means of travel before?
Carving wheels out of stone just got fancier.
none of this is new, just repackaged. Just like "new" social ideas are only regurgitation of old ones that the current crowd has forgotten don't work.
+++ wrong. you try to reduce everything down to a ridiculously simple equation. if you want to be silly, i guess we can say everything can be reduced down to hydrogen, so unless you're hydrogen, you're nothing new.
computers, satellites, the internet - i'm sure you think those are copies of books, which are just copies of ideas, which are just copies of...
Yes, there is nothing new under the sun. Have fun putting it together in ways that please you and pretend you are the first generation to know anything.
Religious people have contributed immensely toward medical and technological advancements.
Not bad for a bunch of delusional people who believe in imaginary things!
they succeeded in spite of their religious beliefs, not because of it. the church has long been the enemy of science and critical thinking. try harder.
They've done more than you... All you do is stand on the sideline and complain. I bet you $100,000,000,000 I can find 100,000 religious people who know more about science than you.
Bill, How many birds are made from heavy material such as metal? Thrust from the human-invented engine is what makes 'plane travel possible.
OK Dude, I accept. Put your wager into an escrow account and we'll see.
Dude, If these religious folk know more about science why do they deny the parts that invalidate arguments for gods? Surely they should adapt their view to reality rather than clinging to the imaginings of Bronze Age sheepherders.
I don't know. Science hasn't disproved or proved God to me. But the fact is, they seem to have a strong grasp of science ant mathematics, just like us.
Booty..... How about going right down to basics that we are all made out of vibrating strings, that form sub atomic particles, that form quarks, that form, ah the hell with that to complicated lets just say god did it. As Topner would say my head hurts thinking about all that stuff, god did it, hallelujah!
That's silly, Bill. There are always new ways. Any solution that has not been tried before IS a new way. It might be composed of tried and true methods and substances, but if it is combined in a way that has not been tried before, of course it's new. This is how things, like new cures, new processes and new materials are discovered. You may be intellectually bankrupt, but I assure you, there are many, many people who are working on new ways even as I am typing.
tallulah13
BD would do away with the patent office and have all new ideas pass through the Vatican, BD can be very stupid from time to time or most of the time.
we should have respect for people, but we sure as hell don't have to respect their crazy ideas. that's one of the beautiful freedoms in the U.S. you can say you talk to an invisible sky fairy all you want - i don't have to respect such a nutjob assertion.
our religious brothers and sisters don't realize we're trying to help them leave the cult and think for themselves.
You are full of bs. You are not trying to help anyone. What kind of delusional idiot thinks insulting and acting hostile toward people help them?
You are just as bad as the delusional religious people, like Fred Phelps, who uses your same tactic.
Dude, you act just as bad as the religious nut jobs!
And you do not represent logic, reason or sanity.
Dude wrote:
"You are full of bs. You are not trying to help anyone. What kind of delusional idiot thinks insulting and acting hostile toward people help them?"
+++ wrong, Dude. i'm trying to help people like you leave the cult and think for yourself. i really am. people on the fence may read these posts and take the final rational leap to atheism. i'm trying to deprogram people like you.
"You are just as bad as the delusional religious people, like Fred Phelps, who uses your same tactic."
+++ don't get your panties in a bunch. sarcasm and humor aren't evil. i don't have to respect crazy ideas. in what way am i delusional? serious question.
"Dude, you act just as bad as the religious nut jobs!
And you do not represent logic, reason or sanity."
+++ where have i shown anything but logic, reason or sanity? you make assertions - back them up. what have i said that proves your point.
sounds like you got your feelings hurt. sounds likes you don't like to hear opinions that don't concur with your own. it's a subtle way of trying to censor people - "you're being mean! stop making fun of my friend for believing in the tooth fairy!"
I'm not religious. So stop your ignorant attack on me. But I know a lot of religious people. And they really are not as bad as you paint them. I've been just reading through some of your posts and you seem to be preaching your way the same way religious people preach their way. I don't appreciate it when religious people do it to me. Fortunately not all do. I don't appreciate it when anti-religious people do it to me. Fortunately not all do that either.
I'm just calling you on your BS. And you gave me more bs. Brilliant!
"I'm not religious. So stop your ignorant attack on me.
+++ you first.
"But I know a lot of religious people. And they really are not as bad as you paint them."
+++ you overreacted and assumed way too much. i don't think religious people are evil. i do think they are brainwashed though. why is it so terrible to say that? why is it so mean to say what i believe, to voice my opinion on the matter? you are getting offended because i call god an invisible sky fairy?
"I've been just reading through some of your posts and you seem to be preaching your way the same way religious people preach their way. I don't appreciate it when religious people do it to me. Fortunately not all do. I don't appreciate it when anti-religious people do it to me. Fortunately not all do that either."
+++ so why are you on a blog if you don't want to critically discuss religion? seriously, you start crying about me poking holes in biblical stories? all because i'm not wearing kid gloves?
I'm just calling you on your BS. And you gave me more bs. Brilliant!
+++ YOU are part of the problem. YOU want atheists to be ashamed of their thoughts on god. can't handle the critical examinations of religion? sounds like you need to find a different blog, a "let's hold hands and never ever disagree" blog.
why shouldn't i be able to pointout the silliness and cruelty of the bible?
I'm offended by your use of "crazy' and "nut job" toward religious people and your lie that you are trying to help them. You are full of BS. Ain't NOBODY need to change their views to match yours. You are sick. I'm an atheist sick of retarded atheists like you.
@Bootyfunk
@why shouldn't i be able to pointout the silliness and cruelty of the bible?
Do it. BUt not in a way that shows you are just as silly and cruel.
Dude, there is a post on page 3 with the last sentence beginning with "I know some atheist nuts will . . .". Will you be taking that person to task for their choice of words?
Yes. Thanks for telling on him, I hadn't seen that. Good boy.
You are the one that started this everyone play nice crap. Just thought you would want to live up t your own standards.
I'd rather prove my point that Bootyfunk doesn't like the taste of his own medicine.
Ares- "When will we ever be free of this cloak of ignorance?"
Probably the same day you realize you are absurd.
Why do you think "he" is being absurd?
Because he is absurd. You are absurd. Everything is abusrd. Didn't you know that Sisyphus?
When I survey the wondrous cross
On which the Prince of Glory died
My richest gain I count as loss
and pour contempt on all my pride
Forbid it Lord that I should boast
Save in the death of Christ, my God
All the vain things that shon me most
I sacrifice them to his blood
See from his head, his hands, his feet
Sorrow and love flow mingle down
Did ere such love and sorry meet
or thorn compose so rich a crown
Were the whole realm of nature mine
that were an off'ring far too small
Love so amazing, so divine
Demands my soul
Demands my soul
Love demands my soul
My life, my all
^^ cult gibberish ^^
It's my answer to DD's question. The thread got a little long and my approach differs from Topher's
it doesn't sound like you're answering a question.
it sounds like fevered cult ramblings trying to pass itself off as meaningful poetry.
BD the thread got too long because I was being made to look the fool so I took the cowards way out and ran away. Same thing LofA, L4H, Topher et al, do, when the going gets tough the Jesus defenders get gone.
I didn't comment in the other thread so it wasn't that it go too long for me, the focus just drifted. Yes, I understand that faith looks like gibberish to goats.
it looks like gibberish to anyone that uses cognitive thinking.
BD you aren't a christian, a bigoted catholic for sure but you fail in almost every definition of being genuine.
Och lorie mon! Dare ye' saye
Amen!
Amen BD
And the church demands your cash. Remember Jesus and the Church in your will. Indulgences can be provided after your death.
You'd be fun to argue with if you weren't so boring and condescending and ignorant
if you want boring and ignorant, read your first post in this thread.
Really am I is that because I have no christian values being a non believer why should I have. As to ignorant I think that you display that far more than I, try reading your own posts.
Billy D is having a hissy fit 'cause he hasn't been able to provide even the most basic foundation for his goofiness. I sure his lord will forgive him – when he next talks to himself.
Boring: Thinking that the Church's motive must be only about money
Ignorant: Thinking that indulgences are for sale for cash
Condescending: I'll give you credit here. I don't think you actually believe the first two canards but you post them and that makes you condescending.
bill deacon thinks anyone saying anything contrary to his belief in a non-existent god is ignorant, condescending and boring. it's a symptom of cult-think. facts and reasoning become the enemy.
@OKfine : And the church demands your cash.
All your cash is going to do you a lot of good once you die. NOT!
Whereas the church can have more tax-free investments – after they pay for the cover-up of child abuse.
I take it you have no family to look after. Giving money to any religious organization, no thanks, The Bill and Melissa Gates foundation would be my first choice, they will do more good in their lifetimes than the RCC has done in 2000 years.
Bill and Melinda do great things. That being said, I donate via richarddawkins.net.
Thanks Hot Air, I was thinking of Melissa my daughter that I wish married Gates, Melinda it is.
Believe it or not, I did not intentionally mean to correct you! I did not notice "Melissa" above. I didn't want to mention richarddawkins.net without positively acknowledging B & M Gates.
BD. do you not know of the religious scams that are in place hustlers selling the bible and salvation and even the faith healers that are still prevalent today. The hustlers on Sunday TV every week gouging the sheep. Your lot has it perfected, you have been in the business the longest. Visit the Vatican for a small fee tour the joint, get a visitation with the Pope for only 10,00 Euros, visit Lourdes the snake oil is swell, see the shroud of Turin for a small fee, the hustle goes on and on a venerable sites every few 100 kilometers to take your money. Please stop BD you should know, the princes of the church when they see income falling will put out a miracle story to get the sheepies back to the admission booth, that is the truth. The RCC has shot themselves in the foot and will slowly die from the poison. I admit Frankie is better/different from the rest but I hope it is to late to save a sinking ship.
Ah c'mon BD I was trying to get you into another unchristian like tirade that you are so good at, do not disappoint me. Peter's pence always love that as if the Vatican needed more money to keep the clip joint running. The Italian government has finally clued in and are trying to tax the place. Getting religious buildings to pay for the services they use, what a great idea even property taxes, sweet.
Bible Fun Fact:
did you know Satan kills only 10 people in the entire bible? and he got permission from God first.
God has destroyed whole cities of people, drowned the entire planet sans a single family. yep, God even drowned the children, elderly, physically disabled, mentally challenged...
tally of kills in the bible:
Satan = 10
God = millions
Thank you very much for confirming to the world that satan indeed only does what Gos allows him to do. It's always nice to know who is really in charge, isn't it?
@Bootyfunk : did you know Satan kills only 10 people in the entire bible?
And he's responsible for ALL of us dying. Care to reconcile this discrepancy?
Gen 2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.
"And he's responsible for ALL of us dying. Care to reconcile this discrepancy?"
+++ yes. god made satan. god made evil. god made the tree of knowledge. god made the rule that adam and eve couldn't eat from it. god made the punishment for eating from it. god designed the game - he is responsible for the outcome.
Bible Fun Fact:
Are you female? Have you ever engaged in premarital s.ex? Even if you're married now, did you have s.ex even once before you were married? Maybe when you were a teenager or your early twenties? 98% of American women have. Do you know what the bible says is the punishment for such wh.orish behavior? Let's check and see:
"But if this thing be true, and the tokens of v.irginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the wh.ore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you." (Deuteronomy 22: 20-21)
Well, looks like we must drag the non-virgin woman to her father's doorstep and there, with help from the whole town, stone her to death. Sorry 98% of women, Yahweh says you have to die. I'm guessing you're going to Hell, too. (Please note this punishment does not apply to men who do the exact same thing.)
on a positive note, I bet that last 2% of women left after we stone the rest to death will be right popular with the fellas. 🙂
Popularity is one thing but what about that 2%'s other attributes? Some of us guys have standards!
I wouldn't want to be part of a group that forces people to marry someone with no experience.
Then don't be concerned when your partner continues to get experience outside the of the marriage.
What's the adultery rate in your cult? I bet it's not zero? Why isn't it zero? Same questions re: abortion. Why isn't your god powerful enough to cause his cult members to follow his rules? Cue the "free will, we're all sinners" bullsh!t. . .
What's your evidence that experience prior to marriage is linked to infidelity? It may go the other way more, incompatible people look for compatibility outside the marriage.
due to the lack of ladies, sounds like there will be a lot more hot man-on-man action.
First, men AND women were commanded to be stoned – not just the women.
Second, (and more importantly) Christ died for all the sins of all who follow Him – including those who committed adultery previously. But, atheists don't know these facts because they don't actually READ the Bible – only those atheists website mocking the Bible.
Good point!
Live4Him wrote:
"First, men AND women were commanded to be stoned – not just the women."
+++ please quote, as i did, where it says men are to be stoned to death for not being a virgin on their wedding night. also, it would still be awful to stone people to death because they aren't a virgin, man or woman. what happens to a girl that is molested as a child? she dies on her wedding night because she's not a virgin?
"Second, (and more importantly) Christ died for all the sins of all who follow Him – including those who committed adultery previously. But, atheists don't know these facts because they don't actually READ the Bible – only those atheists website mocking the Bible."
+++ christ likely never existed. if he died for anyone's sins, it was his own. also, surveys show that atheists generally have more biblical knowledge than christians. it is precisely because i've read the bible that i know of these horrible passages. i suggest you stop being a hypocrite and read the bible for yourself and find out what a monster your christian god is.
I thought so. You've never bothered to read the Bible for yourself. Here you go.
Leviticus 20:10 If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
@Bootyfunk : christ likely never existed.
You'd better hope you're right! After all, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes if you're wrong. 🙂
I know Bootyfunk will show you the error in your response but I am curious: is the drivel you quoted in the part of The Babble christians no longer have to pay attention to, is it in the part all christians must follow or is it the part christians are allowed to pick and choose from?
Lie4Him, you need to go look at your Babble again. Bootyfunk pointed out that only women must be virgins on their wedding night. You dredged up some crap from The Babble about adultery. Where does it say in your book of insanity that men must be virgins on their wedding night or be stoned?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4GUkzTnFG0&feature=player_detailpage
Vatican II which Francis fully embraces, will eventually demolish any remnant of the Catholic Faith. Down with Vatican II and the past four Popes who have pushed it on the faithful. Bring back Pius XII.
"Vatican II which Francis fully embraces, will eventually demolish any remnant of the Catholic Faith."
+++ we can only hope.
We can all have hope, I hope your first sentence comes true.
Lainie11
Are you speaking as someone honestly concerned about these people, or are you greedily rubbing your hand together at the thought of flocks of ex-Catholics gravitating towards your own church?
"Bring back Pius XII."
How do you propose to do that?
I beg your pardon, this Pope does not speak for most Catholics, in fact, what Francis speaks of is being questioned even by Priests and Bishops. He speaks a language foreign to the Catholic Faith. You will never hear him speak of giving God His due, the first three commandments speak of this. The last seven refer to man and his actions during life. You'll never hear Francis speak of the worship of God which is first and foremost the primary purpose of man.
" You'll never hear Francis speak of the worship of God which is first and foremost the primary purpose of man."
this declaration shows you are in a cult that turns critical thinking. caholocism is a cult, like any other. you don't need to believe in an imaginary friend in the sky to be a good person. there were good people long before christianity reared its ugly head.
Yes, he actually does speak from most Catholics. And those priests you speak of are a bunch of self-loathing closet cases.
Some of you guys zone in on the LGBT community and want everyone to believe the Ten Commandments are nothing but "Thou Shall Not Be Gay". You're a fraud. Get over it.
Have you and your local cult withdrawn from the bigger RCC cult, or are you just going to blather on here and remain a good little catholic? If your cult has disappointed you for decades why are you still a member? Have you considered ditching the whole religious cult gig?
That means he is not so blind as you are.
Bible Fun Fact:
remember, if you ever see Elijah or any of God's prophets, don't ever make fun of them:
2 Kings 2
2:23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
yes, god sends bears to slaughter 42 children because they made fun of a prophet for being bald. god sure does like killing kids!
amen.
God sure knows how to kill people!
The Old Testicle is filled with great god killing stories.
I am sure the fundies of today would relish with glee the chance to see god come back and do some more killing.
You think the fundies read all those great killing stories to their kids at night?
Might explain why they are so Effed up.
The good old days.
Pretty vain prophet, puts a death curse on little children for being playful. The prophet had to know that his god loved smiting.
these disgusting stories have to be read as fairy tales to be even 1/2way palatable. imagine this field of dead children, torn apart by bears. imagine the parents of those children when they were brought out to see them, mauled and lifeless. all because they made fun of a guy for being bald.
anyone that could worship a monster like the christian god should have their head checked. better yet, all christians should be made to read the bible so they understand exactly what kind of maniac god they worship.
I am amazed that people can't see the obvious, the bible is not a timeless book of laws from an omniscient being, it is a man made docu ment based on the moral, technological, and scientific state of knowledge millennia ago.
"The bible is literal."
– Topher
When the evolutionists run outta dough they'll be stealin' from the Christians. THOSE kinda things have never happened before. Wait, Wait. They already are!!
The evolutionists are going to demand that everyone ti/the 10% of their salaries or else they won't get to evolve.
you're confused. that's an offer from the church. give 10% of your salary and you get to be an example of a higher species devolving back into a monkey.
where do you get your drugs?
What would "evolutionists" need that kind of money for? It's not like Dawkins has $2000 suits, or drives a Bentley.
The previous popes have betrayed the Christian faith through their greed for honor, power and riches but at least were faithful to the Catholic doctrine. The current pope even betrayes the Catholic Church and Catholic doctrine. How far it is a sin to betray a club which is bad in itself remains questionable; at any rate it is a betrayal.
Both from the stance of the true Christian faith and from the stance of the Catholic Church the pope had to condemn gay marriage. It is clear that this modern Judas is not a fighter for the truth but he only wants to keep church members together with their donations and taxes.
Go to hell!
http://confessingchurch.worpdress.com
Bonhoeffer said that even when the RCC would pronounce the true Gospel, we should not accept it because the RCC is bad in herself nevertheless.
The RCC is completely disqualified through the papal office which is antichristian, against God's plans of His church.
You guys are constantly fighting among yourselves. What a great testimony you are to non believers!
I assume you think Muslims have shown a better testimony?
May not, but does that excuse a Christian???
Certainly not, but to call out a group for something you are guilty of yourself is the epitome of hypocrisy.....you know the whole the whole "remove the plank out of your own eye" thing....
Christians have a much higher standard they are called to. If they can't love their own brethren how can they love their neighbor?
Before you interfere in Christian matters, you should be baptized and believe that Jesus, the Son of God, died and resurrected for you.
I believe that Muhammad was a furtive alcoholic because he dreamed from a paradise with rivers of wine.
I believe Jesus was an alcoholic because he distributed wine to the masses like a divine bartender.
He loves wine so much, He turns it into His blood to this very day.
Please forgive me my unjustice against righteous Mohammed, though a lover of bloodshed.
i believe, rainy, that you are a closet queen with delusions of grandeur
No thanks, your posts are no indication of Christian love.
I love you as a human being with full human dignity but I cannot love the Islam which is the product of one of the worst impostors of all history.
Sometimes the truth is hard to endure but I cannot spare you from that.
Interestingly, had you been born in Egypt(something completely out of your control), you'd likely be a full-on Muslim, and would then believe christians follow the wrong path. This represents the somewhat arbitrary nature of religious preference, it depends greatly on the culture you were raised in, not which path is any more "correct" than the other.
MAD = Mutual Assured Distruction
You Americans are so wise.
Further ideas of keeping peace?
Rainer:
Before you interfere in secular matters, you have to swear that you will allow fact and reason to guide your choices, instead of the doctrine of any religion.
Fact and reason guide my choices.
There is no fundamental difference between islam and christianity because there is no foundation for either. They are both cults based on unproven mythology.
You err extremly.
The whole Christian doctrine is backed by events which were testified by many witnesses.
In contrast the Islam leans only on statements made by Muhammad lacking any witnesses.
1 or 1,000,000 testimonies, it does not matter. The god aspects of each fantasy are not supported by facts.
if i make up a silly story and say 1000 people were there to witness it - that doesn't necessarily make it so. greek myths have witnesses to all kinds of gods appearing - so are zeus, hermes and hercules real? same rule applies to the christian myths.
You can't call it a fact unless you support it with evidence, Rainer. And you can't call it reason when you insist upon believing something for which there is no evidence.
It's fun to watch Christians fight each other in claiming moral superiority!
As a Christian I am troubled at Christians feeling any kind of superiority. I think it goes against the way scripture teaches them to live. I know Christians believe in certain absolute truths but for that to lead to feelings of superiority is just wrong and flies in the face of scripture.....at least that is how I see it.
You are one of the few Rett.
All the xtians I work with walk around with a superiority complex as big as a T Rex.
As they always say to me, "We have it all figured out and we are saved so we can do whatever we want."
Then they damn me to hell because I don't play along with their raindeer games.
I doubt it niknak
and it's reindeer
Niknak, I have known christians like that before as well. They feel superior by comparing themselves to others as if that is the standard. God's holiness (though you may question it) is the standard by which we are judged. a christian who feels smug because he is "better" than someone else is like being in a contest to see who can jump to the moon. I may get six inches closer than someone else but considering how far i still missed the moon that does not leave much room for gloating. Any how, i am sorry your experience has been bad where christians are concerned. Maybe your path will cross with some who better live out their calling.
It must be tiring to hate so much. Get some rest, you obviously need it.
I hate nobody. I only hate the American Civil Religion which lumps together all religions against all truth.
If the Truth is really the Truth it would be constant all over the world and never changing throughout time. 2,013 years and still counting.
"Religions against all truth."
Sounds about right.
there is no true christian faith. it's all the same - a silly belief in an invisible sky fairy. grow up, think for yourself.
Rainer Braindeader,
Ah jealousy, the real reason you xtian fundies hate the RCC so much.
The pope gets to live in the Vatican, surrounded by some of the most beautiful artwork know to man.
He is treated like a celebrity in any catholic nation he goes to.
Compared to your shaman, who lives in some non descript sh itty condo out in the stix, and is completely unknown when he leaves his little hamlet.
"Honor, power and riches" are bad? Not many protestant preachers with an ounce of the prominence that the pope has ought to be able to pick up a stone concerning those sins. In my town, the local priest painted his own church doors the other day while the young Pentecostal preacher moved into a brand new parsonage just last year. The pope may look rich to you but, on the ground, the real money appears to be in protestantism.
There is no Protestant minister with the prominence of the pope.
There is no protestant minister responsible for the abuse of more children and the protection of more criminals than at least the last three Pope-A-Dopes.
citation please
Sorry, this is my deeply held personal belief for which I do not have to provide any evidence.
At least you're finally honest
Just playing your game Billy Boy. And thanks for raising to the bait.
You're not playing my game. You're using a tactic you've falsely attached to Christianity because you know you don't have a leg to stand on. That's your game. If I'm wrong post a citation from the Westminster or Roman catechism that says we don't have to give a reason for our beliefs.
Feeling guilty for unfairly messing with BD, I went looking for some data on s3xual abuse by denomination. It appears that there isn't solid data along these lines but the consensus seems to be that all cults abuse at about the same rate. This will give BD some solace but I don't think it's anything to be proud of.
I did find an interesting article that claims abuse of women by clergy will be the next big scandal. See: Unsafe In Any Denomination – Women and Clergy S3xuall Abuse – http://www.now.org/issues/violence/clergyabuse_unsafe.html. You might find the fact sheet interesting.
And I note that Billy D (in another thread) has been unable to identify another organization (other than the RCC) known to harbor child abusers and that has not come clean.
BD are favorite coward is back, be obedient, on your knees.
Can god be seen?
EXO 24:9,10; AMO 9:1; GEN 26:2; and JOH 14:9
God CAN be seen:
"And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." (EXO 33:23)
"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (EXO 33:11)
"For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (GEN 32:30)
God CANNOT be seen:
"No man hath seen God at any time." (JOH 1:18)
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (EXO 33:20)
"Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1TIM 6:16)
Error. Error. No Contradiction detected.
You mean seen.
Now, of course, Moses didn't actually mean "SEE" as in using his eyes to process ocular stimuli.
He meant "SEE" in a purely metaphorical sense....
Maybe he had Google Glass....
@Doc Vestibule,
lol,
Yes, of course! I see now!
There are over 100 direct inconsistencies in the babble, just like the ones you pointed out.
But when I bring any of them up to one of the fundies I work with, they always sluff it off as either allegory or a scribe's error.
My response to them is if that is true, then how do you know the other parts that are not in contradiction are not allegory or a scribe's error?
But they come back at me with the bible is never wrong. Huh?
It is impossible to have a logical discussion with someone who is not logical.
Kinda like having a math discussion with someone who believes 2 plus 2 equals 5.
Make sure people read all literature and newspapers literally.
I am sure you want your doctor to read literally any test or procedure result you get.
My doctor has loyalty to the Beast. He's licensed to practice licentiousness. It's a great privilege, not a right.
@lol???
It's OK – the doctor won't try to cure your hysteria the way they did in the old days.
Then why bother even going to see a doctor when you get sick?
I will have a bit more respect for you if you didn't, because at least you are putting your money where your religious mouth is.
You believers denounce science when it contradicts your imaginary friend, yet run as fast as you can to see a doctor anytime you believe something serious might be wrong with you.
Classic hypocrites.
I don't see him denouncing science. I see him denouncing disloyal physicians
Religion is a crime
I preach that mess all the time
The churches just keep on prayin’ and sayin’
I ain’t hatin’
Just demonstratin’
Atheists stand up fool and show your face
Ain’t no disgrace
Gotta be that way player
Do us all that favor
Bill Deacon, Topher, Lawrence et al
You speak so confidently about your god but how do you know all this about your god?
Is it from the Bible ... because vast sections of that have been discredited and are acknowledged even by Christians as NOT the word of God but the word of man.
Is it from what your priest/pastor/other told you? If so, how do they know?
Is it from what your parents told you? If so, how do they know?
Is it from voices in your head? Your imagination?
Is there any proof for any of what you say or are you just mindlessly reciting that which has been drummed into your head since childhood?
Dyslexic doG
"You speak so confidently about your god but how do you know all this about your god?"
We know about God through His Word. But of course it's our stance that you know about Him, too. He gave everyone the Creation (it's only logical that you look around you and realize that we aren't an accident ... order doesn't come from an explosion nor does something come from nothing ... plus it would break the first law of thermodynamics) and a conscience so that we all will have no excuse on Judgment Day.
"Is it from the Bible ... because vast sections of that have been discredited and are acknowledged even by Christians as NOT the word of God but the word of man."
That's not true. Granted some believe what you say to be true, but nothing in the Bible has been proved to be untrue. If a Christian tells you those things, they are calling God a liar.
"Is it from what your priest/pastor/other told you? If so, how do they know?"
Someone did explain it to me, but I didn't grow up in the church. How did that person know? From the Bible.
"Is it from what your parents told you? If so, how do they know?"
No. My parents aren't Christians.
"Is it from voices in your head? Your imagination?"
No. God doesn't speak to us audibly. It's through His Word.
"Is there any proof for any of what you say or are you just mindlessly reciting that which has been drummed into your head since childhood?"
Proof? No. Evidence that supports what the Bible says? Yes.
@Topher
You didn't answer my questions from yesterday.
How many angels were at the empty tomb?
Were they inside or outside the tomb when proclaiming "he is risen"?
Were they standing or sitting when the "eye witnesses" saw came upon them?
Doc
I don't have a Bible in front of me, so I wouldn't be able to give you specifics.
Don't feel to bad Topher, the people who wrote it couldn't even agree on it.
Of course they agree.
You have the internet in front of you, my friend.
The verses you're looking for are:
John 20
Mark 16
Matthew 28
http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org
Luke 24
Moses' personality
NUM 12:3: "Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth."
NUM 31:14, 17, 18: "And Moses was wroth...And Moses said unto them, "Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman, ... But all the women children ... keep alive for yourselves.
ACT 1:18: "Now this man (Judas) purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."
MAT 27:5-7: "And he (Judas) cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests...bought with them the potter's field."
Jesus' last words
MAT 27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."
LUK 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."
JOH 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."
Dyslexic doG
Those passages about Judas aren't contradictory. He hung himself and later, when his body fell to the ground, burst open.
Topher, that's not what it says at all!
and what of the other ones I listed?
and what of the COUNTLESS other contradictions and foolishness in the bible?
I don't mind if you say it's an old book and helps you to believe in your god but to claim that it is all true is simply denial
Dyslexic doG
"Topher, that's not what it says at all!"
Of course that's what it says. This isn't an NHL play-by-play. Nor is it a syllabus that lays things out neatly in a Roman-numberaled outline. You have to read the entire thing.
"and what of the other ones I listed?"
OK, for instance the Jesus sayings on the cross. He said every one of those things. You've got different writers reporting on the same event. They are just telling it in different ways. For instance, read two different newspapers' account of an event. Are they told in the same order? With the exact same details? Do the direct quotes even match exactly? No. That's all that's going on here with these "contradictions." God spoke through man, but man kept his own personalities and writing styles. There are NO contradictions.
"and what of the COUNTLESS other contradictions and foolishness in the bible?"
There's a lot of seeming contradiction, I grant you, but these are only problems for people who want there to be problems. Every last one of them has a logical solution. As if we haven't had 2000 years to study these things and figure them out. But your statement here shows your bias and presupposition. So nothing I say will likely cause you to consider these things.
"I don't mind if you say it's an old book and helps you to believe in your god but to claim that it is all true is simply denial"
True, it does help me to believe. But "all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."
Are there contradictions in the resurrection narrative?
Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, John 20
A cursory reading of the resurrection narratives in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John reveal a few differences in the recorded facts. While these supposed discrepancies sometimes alarm modern readers and excite atheists looking for issues, like all alleged Biblical contradictions, they are easily resolved.
In each Gospel account, the core story is the same: Joseph of Arimathea takes the body of Jesus and puts it in a tomb, one or more of Jesus’ female followers visit the tomb early on the Sunday morning following His crucifixion, and they find that the tomb is empty. They see a vision of either one or two angels who say that Jesus is risen.
Despite the different accounts concerning the women’s number and names, the exact time of the morning, and the number of angels, we can have great confidence in the shared core story.
So how do we account for the seeming discrepancies?
The differences between the empty tomb narratives are indicative of multiple, independent affirmations of the story.
In these accounts, they at first seem to vary in the reported time of the visit to the tomb. One writer describes it as “still dark” (John 20:1), another says it was “very early in the morning” (Luke 24:1), and another says it was “just after sunrise” (Mark 16:2). But if the visit was “at dawn,” (Matthew 28:1), they were all describing the same time of day with different words.
As for the number and names of the women, none of the Gospels even pretend to give a complete list. John writes about Mary Magdalene at the tomb, but Matthew, Mark and Luke cite other women, so there was probably a group of women that included those who were named and probably a few others. Perhaps when the women came, Mary Magdalene arrived first and that’s why only John mentions her. That’s hardly a contradiction.
In terms of whether there was one angel (Matthew) or two (John) at Jesus’ tomb, have you ever noticed that whenever you have two of anything, you also have one? Matthew didn’t say that there was only one angel. Perhaps only one of the two angels spoke, so that is why only one was mentioned. John was merely providing more detail by saying there were two.
Right on, Lawrence.
Now that's some nice doublethink.
Different accounts of the same event actually confirm the perfect innerancy of the Bible!
While not mentioned in the original narrative in any way, the extra terrestrial origin of the immortals from Highlander II in no way contradicts the ending of Highlander in which MacLeod wins The Prize and becomes The One.
"There can be only one" is still 100% valid and accurate, even though the original omitted the additional "on Earth".
Doc Vestibule
"Now that's some nice doublethink. Different accounts of the same event actually confirm the perfect innerancy of the Bible!"
It's not doublethink at all. There's FOUR Gospel accounts. Some give more details than others. You also have to consider who these authors were writing to. One is specifically to Greeks, another to Jews. Luke's, in particular, is the account of a journalist/historian who was interviewing everyone he could find that was there. There really isn't a problem here unless you want there to be.
Doc,
Different viewpoints of the same event that all support the events that took place. When have you ever known eyewitnesses to all report the SAME EXACT thing unless their statements have been rehursed? In the case of the 4 gospels, each one was from a different viewpoint that each tell the story in a different way, but do not contradict one another.
The problem with atheist websites that people are posting these "contradictions" from is that they refuse to read the Bible for themselves to see how easy it actually is to dispell these supposed issues. They find contradictions because they WANT to find them, and they use what's called "proof texting" in order to do it.
If people would take the time to actually READ it, then they would know what was in it.
But with the Democratic leadership in this nation setting the example, it's no wonder people refuse to read it. 😉
Topher:
You sound like you've got a little John MacArthur mixed in with some Ray Comfort in your teaching. But I KNOW I've heard John Calvin coming out of you too. Where did you study?
Lawrence of Arabia
"You sound like you've got a little John MacArthur mixed in with some Ray Comfort in your teaching. But I KNOW I've heard John Calvin coming out of you too. Where did you study?"
MacArthur and Comfort are very important men to me. I have a certificate in evangelism, but that's all. I just try to spend as much time in God's Word as I can, whether it's reading the Bible or sitting at the feet of teachers like these two. How about you?
Must really suck Gopher when the unbelievers know more about the babble then you do.
I just try to spend as much time in God's Word as I can
----
In other words, practicing 1 certain religion. Other religions have different texts they believe are God's word. You love religion!
Roy "Banana" Comfort?
Dude is never going to live down that display of foolishness.
Topher:
I wanted to go to seminary growing up, but there weren't any good schools near where I was, so I spent many years listening to J. MacArthur, R. Zacharius, A. Rogers, R.C. Sproul, and gleaming every ounce that I could from these godly men. I've been a missionary before and have always been involved in personal evangelism, but unfortunately I don't have any formal schooling. I supposed that's the wonderful thing about our God though, if we learn nothing else from the Bible, it's that God uses only unworthy people, and we don't need a certificate on our wall to do God's work. Still, I would love to someday...
Dude, if you're anywhere near North Georgia, we need to get a cheeseburger or something.
"they refuse to read the Bible for themselves to see how easy it actually is to dispell these supposed issues."
Another false delusion you have is that atheists just havn't read the bible. The facts are completely the opposite.
"The Pew Forum on Religious Religion and Public Life released a survey on religious knowledge today. Atheists and Agnostics scored higher on it than anyone else, closely followed by Jews and Mormons, all Christians, Protestants and Catholics, were far behind." npr.org Sep 2010
I myself have read the bible cover to cover several times in my life and attempted to cross reference nearly every line in the 30 years I spent as a Christian with a decade as a pastor. I often used other scriptures to loosely explain away the inconsistancies, but alas, they are too great and too numerous to ignore if you actually read the bible. I believe the majority of Christans on the planet have never gotten all the way through the gospels let alone the entire bible.
Lawrence of Arabia
I've looked into taking online courses from a few seminaries, but cost is a little out of line for me at this time. That's why I appreciate the ministries like Living Waters, Grace to You, Wretched, etc., that put their stuff online or produce books and videos to help me keep studying throughout the week.
"Dude, if you're anywhere near North Georgia, we need to get a cheeseburger or something."
I'd love that, but I'm closer to Chicago than Atlanta.
See Lawrence, this is where you are wrong. I have read every page of the bible for myself and there are without a doubt contradictions in it.
Topher:
Yeah, Chicago would be a bit far for a burger... Oh, well.
Well, I gotta get back to work, but keep fighting the good fight, even though sometimes it can feel a bit like trying to nail jello to a wall in here...
Evidence that supports what the Bible says? Yes.
-----
I thought you said you don't care for religion? Why do you continue to reference the bible?
What I gathered from his response yesterday is that Topher doesn't consider Christianity to be a religion.
That would be odd. Then again, it's Topher. Topher-logic isn't logic in the traditional sense, it's much closer to pure comedy.
it is my stance that no one knows more about god than anyone else
it is my stance that anyone who allows someone else to take the punishment they feel they themselves deserve is a coward
it is my stance that you are delusional, and supremely arrogant
Circular logic alert!
Circular logic alert!
Circular logic alert!
Circular logic alert!
It's in the babble hence it's true because it's in the babble.
"(it's only logical that you look around you and realize that we aren't an accident ... order doesn't come from an explosion nor does something come from nothing ... plus it would break the first law of thermodynamics)"
Actually, Topher, your god very neatly breaks the first law of thermodynamics. Which begs the question: Who created your god? You can't say he always existed, because if that is the case, then you must also concede that it is just as likely that the universe has always existed, in one form or another. And the universe is visible, quantifiable (with limitations) and provable. Your god is none of these three.
If you look at history, the judeo-christian god has only existed for about 3500-3800 years. The hindu pantheon is older, and many other gods existed before both. How could your god - who wasn't even around when Stonehenge was built - create the universe?
And finally, if you look at the evidence, you will see that we are here because a series of events made it possible for life to exist. And once life exists, it's primary function is to survive and grow. It's very easy, when you look at the evidence, to see how life evolved and changed to survive the chaotic conditions on the planet. Your god never even enters the picture. Your scientific ignorance is not proof of god.
tallulah13
"Actually, Topher, your god very neatly breaks the first law of thermodynamics."
Nope.
"Which begs the question: Who created your god?"
No one. He is eternal.
"You can't say he always existed, because if that is the case, then you must also concede that it is just as likely that the universe has always existed, in one form or another."
I just did. 😉 But seriously, you can't make that comparison. God exists outside of time and space. The universe exists inside of those things. To create time and space, you must have something that exists outside of it. And if you're timeless, you are eternal.
"And the universe is visible, quantifiable (with limitations) and provable. Your god is none of these three."
Doesn't mean He doesn't exist. And as far as provable ... He's been proven to me. Not my fault if you choose to deny Him.
"If you look at history, the judeo-christian god has only existed for about 3500-3800 years."
No.
"The hindu pantheon is older, and many other gods existed before both. How could your god – who wasn't even around when Stonehenge was built – create the universe?"
How could other gods exist before God if He is timeless. And if you want to argue it from "history" ... He has made himself known to man since Day 6.
"And finally, if you look at the evidence, you will see that we are here because a series of events made it possible for life to exist."
Ah, so we are all just an accident. See above.
It must be a biological holdover. Evolution doesn't exclude the brain. Perhaps one day, natural selection will select for non-delusionary homo-sapien brains.
http://youtu.be/xDETpS5uz48
Read it, today!
The joyful myth and eager messenger;
Stained glass soars to the rafters;
Surely God is here, and yet this house is empty;
No salesman can close;
Lovely building full of lies, heard less prayers than cries;
Sacred this and sacred that;
Babies raped and priests zipping up their pants;
No leads to follow;
This is what Jesus witnesses from His lofty perch in that glass;
Abuse the sheep and pay the tithe;
Fill the tray and please don’t stay;
Such a lovely cathedral, such a vile torture chamber.
way to go! Keep practicing your faith in no god.
I am not sure what that means, but I don't have faith in no God I don't think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Co5-v8gaaG4
LOLOLOLOLOL .... ahhhh thanks for that ... I needed a good laugh on a Friday.
God created the universe. Many billions of years ago, a life form evolved on a planet not so far distant and their scientists deduced the building blocks for life existed in the universe and from it, new life forms could be created. These ancient ones populated Mars with life and eventually, due to asteroid events over millions of years, life arrived here on Earth.
We are a product of that primeval turbulence. Therefore, we must worship the Aliens, not God. The Aliens have to worship God. This is all true because I have faith that it happened just this way.
Why do you include a god in your theory?
God? He visits us quite often on my home planet. He doesn't really care for Earth to be honest.
and what does your psychiatrist have to say about that?
So you'll believe ANYTHING as long as it's not the God of the Bible.
I find his story to be more believable than the bible, but I don't buy either one myself.
Of course you do.
Aliens are about 1,000 times more likely to exist than the Christian god.
Joey
"Aliens are about 1,000 times more likely to exist than the Christian god."
Why?
Because I think it is way more likely that life arose on one of the trillions of planets in the universe than it is that the Jesus story in the bible is true.
Joey
"Because I think it is way more likely that life arose on one of the trillions of planets in the universe than it is that the Jesus story in the bible is true."
So on one hand we have Jesus ... in which we have eyewitness testimony, who even secular historians acknowledge lived, and KNOW that humans exist. On the other hand we have aliens ... no evidence, no proof, no potential messages captured by SETI, nothing. And aliens are more likely? Dude ...
1000? Understatement of the century/
Sorry Topher, but I don't think that the stories of eye witnesses seeing Jesus rise from the dead are true. It took like 50 years for them to be written down and by then anybody who would have been around to call bull was probably already dead, as people didn't live as long back then as they do now.
Topher, I think Joey is talking about the relative probability of life also forming elsewhere in this vast universe, not necessarily saying that aliens seeded the earth – although it is possible that life formed elsewhere in the solar system and came to earth via meteors etc. There is very little evidence that Jesus as described in the bible existed and no evidence that he was divine.
Topher, you have been caught lying about eyewitness testimony before. There is none. But do go ahead and trot out your lies.
Exactly, I think that the chance live exists elsewhere in the universe is near 100%, and that the chance of me living forever if I believe in Jesus and repent of my so called sins is exactly 0%.
Topher, don't forget about all of the "eye witnesses" that have been abducted by aliens and had their butts probed.
Many are called, but few are chosen. Sorry, you don't seem to be one of them.There is still time. Repent and believe The Gospel.
Topher
at ten years old...
Topher...Hi Sally look at the neat bike Santa gave me.
Sally...It's real nice 2fer, but there is no Santa.
Topher...Sure there is Sally, my dad said so.
Sally...Your parents are fooling you, they are really Santa.
Topher..Sally you are being silly. I have a book that tells all about Santa, his home at the north pole, his elves, his reindeer, everything.
Sally...Sure 2fer. as she runs away.
Now that you have physically grown up Topher, maybe your mind could catch up. You are one of the following, mentally ill, very, very slow and simple, are still at ten years old mentally or are delusional and a liar. There I have reached my conclusion without all the painful comments you will no doubt post. Bye now.
beautiful!
Saint Nicholas, Bishop of Myra in the 4th century is the source of the legend. Transliteration of the story through Europe to the U.S.A. and commercialism made him Santa Claus. Not so mythical now is he?
Southern Yep, and he brought Toper a bike in the 20th century, seems pretty mythical to me. But believe what you want and hope they legalize mary-jane so you can keep your mind sharp.
Right there was a real Saint Nicholas and then he died and people blew his life way out of proportion and now we have the Santa Claus we have today. This is also the most likely explanation for the Jesus myth in the New Testament as well.
No, but if you know the truth about why rabbits eat out of their butt, you would be amazed.
Sorry, that was for Topher.
And you believe any absurdity, gopher, as long as it is in the bible
I read that in an old book too, so it MUST be true!
If it is written IN the book, it is true and you can base your life on it among many other things.
does god mind getting overruled by the pope?
does god mind getting told "I know you said one thing in your book but we want to do these parts a little differently and these other parts we're just going to ignore..." ?
god can't have really meant what he said in the first place, eh?
As it turns out, God does not mind.
I guess when God cares he'll speak up and say something.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBG0v5RQ86k
Damn it, Steven, quit spamming on all of the articles.