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October 7th, 2013
12:31 PM ET
Scalia says atheism 'favors the devil's desires'By Daniel Burke, CNN Belief Blog Co-editor [twitter-follow screen_name='BurkeCNN'] (CNN) - As the Supreme Court begins its new term Monday, the devil is not on the docket - but the Evil One apparently is on the mind of Justice Antonin Scalia. New York magazine has published a fascinating new interview with Scalia in which the outspoken jurist tackled a number of topics. But none seemed to surprise Scalia's interviewer, Jennifer Senior, more than his views on Satan. The interview was conducted on September 26, the 27th anniversary of Scalia's swearing-in as a justice on the high court. He is one of a record six Catholic justices on the Supreme Court. After Scalia and Senior discussed heaven and hell (he believes in them; she doesn't), the justice said in a stage whisper, "I even believe in the devil." "You do?" Senior replied. "Of course! Yeah, he’s a real person. Hey, come on, that’s standard Catholic doctrine! Every Catholic believes that," Scalia said. Senior asked Scalia if he's seen evidence of Satan's work recently. "You know, it is curious," Scalia answered. "In the Gospels, the devil is doing all sorts of things. He’s making pigs run off cliffs, he’s possessing people and whatnot. And that doesn’t happen very much anymore. ... It’s because he’s smart." MORE FROM CNN: How to argue about religion online Senior asked if it's "frightening" to believe in the devil, which seemed to annoy Scalia. "You’re looking at me as though I’m weird," he answered. "My God! Are you so out of touch with most of America, most of which believes in the devil? I mean, Jesus Christ believed in the devil! It’s in the Gospels! You travel in circles that are so, so removed from mainstream America that you are appalled that anybody would believe in the devil! Most of mankind has believed in the devil, for all of history. Many more intelligent people than you or me have believed in the devil." Scalia, whose son, Paul, is a Catholic priest in Arlington, Virginia, also said Pope Francis is "absolutely" right about the church needing to concentrate more on mercy and outreach than on fighting the culture wars. MORE FROM CNN: American Catholics agree with Pope Francis on ending culture wars "But he hasn’t backed off the view of the church on those issues," Scalia said. "He’s just saying, 'Don’t spend all our time talking about that stuff. Talk about Jesus Christ and evangelize.' I think there’s no indication whatever that he’s changing doctrinally." Finally, Scalia said he has not "softened" his views on homosexuality. "I still think it’s Catholic teaching that it’s wrong. OK? But I don’t hate the people that engage in it. In my legal opinions, all I’ve said is that I don’t think the Constitution requires the people to adopt one view or the other," Scalia said. MORE FROM CNN: Church and state, executive power on Supreme Court docket soundoff (3,730 Responses)1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 Next »
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Reblogged this on Handicap and commented:
Add your thoughts here... (optional)No doubt about it! Just like God is a real person. Only we can't see them, that doesn't mean we shouldn't believe in them. In fact we should believe in them. That should just increase our faith in them.
Does this apply to the tooth fairy, santa claus, and the easter bunny as well? What about the ghost hiding in my closet and the one under my bed *shiver*
Somethings are made up. After awhile you know that they are made up. Sometimes when something bad happens to you, you have no reason for it. But you know something had to cause it. That is when you know, something is going on that is evil. That's when you call Christ into help you. Because the devil does not like Christ.
When people have bad things happen to them they blame the devil. When something good happen to them they thank their God(s) and then credit themselves for the hardwork.
In the end people who think everything in the world needs to have a cause that they can understand is idiotic. Eclipse use to be considered god's wrath or devil's work, then we figured out Astronomy. People thought magic potions and those that mix them are practicing devil's craft, but then we figured out Chemistry. People used to pray for whatever demons that cause a child to have a fever to go away, and sometimes using "remedy" or "exocism" that made the fever worse, then people figured out microorganisms, the immune system, and medicine.
Gods and Devils are just excuses people use to fill in the blanks on anything they do not yet understand, or may never understand. The problem is idiots believe everything must happen for a reason, but smart people understand that while there is a cause and effect, we are not the center of the universe, and thus some things happen for no reason you can active blame as "evil".
"Somethings are made up."
You have no more evidence for a god than there is for the tooth fairy.
"Sometimes when something bad happens to you, you have no reason for it. But you know something had to cause it."
Sometimes the cause is your ineptitude and sometimes it's just the randomness and uncertainty of life. No need for an imaginary supernatural being to help – I mean it didn't stop the bad thing happening.
No doubt about it! Just like God is a real person. Only we can't see them, that doesn't mean we shouldn't believe in them. In fact we should believe in them. That should just increase our faith in them.
This is a perfect example why all Jurist and politicians should be nontheist. Perfect poster child for crazy right next to I am not a witch.
Your bitterness is off-putting.
Your apparent religious beliefs are off putting.
Bitter at bitterness?
the same logic can be used with unicorns. If you are going to believe in something metaphysical believe it for the effect it has on your ability to be compassionate.
Until you have to deal with the devil on a personal basis, you may not believe that he does exist. However when you have to deal with him and understand that he does exist, ask for Jesus Christ, our Savior and He will help you.
The fact that you mention that you've dealt with this fantasy, shows that you have a problem.
If Jesus helped people in need, the 25,000 people that die of hunger wouldn't be dying.
Go see a doctor before it's to late.
I swear people only believe in religions so they can get away with speaking like a 16th century politician and to capitalize random Words and Nobody says Anything to Them about it.
Some people will never understand why some people have faith. But some people only need that faith to fall back on when there are times of trouble. Even our founding fathers have faith and slowly taken out of our government by non believers. It's the people that do have faith in our government when they try to use for the good of the government. They get killed by the non believers in their government. As soon as they are allowed to have faith in their government without being ridiculed this country will be a better place. And then I think some of the non believers will become believers again. I know it's easier to say we know was founded by the non believers when they can't see him. So how do I expect non believers to believe in him today? I have no answer for that. But, Jesus will always remain in my household. And kids that come to my house will always be taught the Lord.
What are you babbling about?
Stop spreading lies.
The founding father of the USA where secular, that's whey they separated the church from the state.
Get a clue.
Then you are teaching your kids a LIE.
Good teachings there.
I will be in Heaven and you will be fighting for a space in Heaven! And I will be laughing my a** off, Thank You and have a very blessed day!
Sure you will.
What if the Muslims are right and you go to hell? Then they will be laughing and you will be burning.
Two lies don't make a truth.
So dream on in your fantasy.
Hey, at least dreaming is free, even if you are a slave of your child molesting and incest god.
Even if Jesus did say people were getting criticized for what they believe in, they were getting criticized for what they followed. In fact it's people like you that put him on the cross, that crucified him. Their are still people getting criticized to this day for what they believe in only in different ways. It may not be their life at stake but this one might be at stake. So be careful who you criticize, or do you even care. Maybe next time you will succeed at getting people to see like you do, but not this time! Try, try, try again, but not this time.
Now that is funny coming from someone who backs the very religious doctrine that ran the inquisitions!
Atheists have been chased by your type of people for thousands of years, but now that you don't have the power to burn us alive, which you certainly would do, you feel the pinch.
I didn't crucify your christ, nor would i have allowed such barbaric act. I don't even believe he actually existed, nut if he did, wasn't he doing it for the christians? If so, then it was for you! Not me!
You want to believe in fairies, go right ahead, as long as your ignorant religion stays out our government, i don't care!
That's where faith needs to come back to play in the government. We need to pray before every session our government, every meeting in our cabinet. Oh and by the way did I forget to tell you we need to put faith back in our schools? I know you don't believe Christ ever existed, do you even have a faith? What do you believe? You believe you just dropped out of the sky? Do you even have a purpose? Are you just on the Earth to live and die and make money? What do you do besides watch tv, and criticize my religion? Oh are you one of those people who live off the government, do you even have a job? Your always online criticizing my religion. You haven't stopped criticizing my religion when I've asked you politely to stop. You still keep going, you still come back to me with a response. When I said I would stop, I meant I would stop when you stop when you would stop with your comments. Otherwise I will just keep criticizing you like you do me. Oh will you please stop doing it? If you don't have anything good to say don't say it at all! Please stop commenting and put your head into something good instead of criticizing other peoples for their beliefs.
Look you retarded un-evolved creature, I'm responding to YOUR stupid comment.
If you don't want me comment, then don't comment!
Every single thing you said is so freaking STUPID, that my conclusion is that your IQ must be below 60!
We didn't drop from the sky and we certainly didn't drop from some stupid god.
We don't need to pray because praying doesn't work.
This is why our founding fathers separated the church from state, to keep retards like you out of our business.
I'm a web developer you moron and I don't watch tv.
Go kneel to your god and do what he wants like a good little boy.
If you don't believe in God, why do follow a faith blog? If you don't believe in a higher being, is it just so you can prey on the believers to destroy their faith? Don't you know that you can destroy a person's life by destroying a person's faith. Just go back to being a web developer and quit doing what you do best, tearing down people you do not know. I cannot imagine what you do to your own family. If they still talk to you. I am sure I will talk to you later. I am a CHRIST WORSHIPER.
This site is EXACTLY about debating the issue of religion! If you don't like people showing you how illogical you are then, get out of the kitchen.
Your type is trying to teach creationism in our schools, you try to manipulate the political system and you indoctrinate children BEFORE they can even thing for themselves!!!!
I wouldn't give a damn if it hurts your or anyone else's feelings, your type used to burn people alive for not believe this crap!
and you expect me to feel sorry for you?
You have to be kidding!
Christ is not the one who killed people for not believing in Him. Christ die at the hands of His own people. You are right some people will not come to follow Christ. Understanding what He is and what He did will help people come to know Christ and come to love His way. I really encourage you if you have a Bible to sit down and read one verse a day. Starting with John. Suggestion would be read it as a classic not the Word of God. If you tell me this blog is for debating, please read and think about how things are different in today's world. Come back to me with the differences.
What are you talking about?
Your christ is a GOD, he has UNLIMITED POWERS, he allows EVERYTHING to happen because he WANTS it to happen!
I didn't ask for that useless sacrifice! He did it without ASKING!
All your nonsense about his own people killing him is so funny. He would have been able to destroy them all if he wanted to.
He created those people KNOWING everything would happen just the way he wanted. It's like he's a masochist, he just wanted to be tortured! CRAZY!
He created EVERYONE FULLY KNOWING what each of us would do and then he blames us for it!
How the hell are we supposed to do anything different that what he already knows we will do?
Did the devil have a choice? If he didn't betray god, god would have been wrong about him, because even before he made the stinking devil, even before the devil even knew that he was going to betray him, god ALREADY KNEW!
If he didn't betray him, then what would god have known? That he wouldn't or that he would? Which one is it? Does he know the future BEFORE it happens or not?
Christ LOVES US? Really?
Christ is giving me an ultimatum, either love him or burn in hell and I don't trust or LOVE anyone that gives me any type of ultimatum.
Do you understand that?
Different from what? From the dark ages? We live longer and better now than we have ever lived! Hell we live better than kings used to live!
Get a grip man!
My point is history will keep repeating itself if we let it.
John 13:38
Jesus *answered, "Will you lay down your life for Me? Truly, truly, I say to you, a rooster will not crow until you deny Me three times.
It's your loss and the Devil's gain.
Very true.
joncraft, would Jesus laugh?
How would he help me?
Will he put food on the table? 25,000 die every day of starvation.
Will he pay my mortgage? How many christian families loose their houses every year?
Will he keep me healthy? How many christians die every year, including children, from all kinds of deceases?
Show me one statistic that shows that christians live better lives with any of the above criteria, than anyone else.
It would be nice if religious people start thinking and doing some research before they talk.
joncraft84
"Don't you know that you can destroy a person's life by destroying a person's faith."
But it's fine for many Christians to destroy the lives of gays by using the Bible to tell them how bad they were made, right?
How about hypocritically trashing doctors who perform legal operations and calling them "murderers"?
Skip the hypocrisy.
and that's just the tip of the iceberg!
joncraft84,
Are you going to answer my questions below on this same thread?
It may be legal in law but not through Jesus eyes. In Jesus eyes it is unjust and murder, and I think most of the time I take what Jesus says to be the right and just thing to do. I know your not going to agree with this, but I take what Jesus says to be law. Please check out my blog http://www.joncraft84.wordpress.com
So if jesus says kill your mother, you'd kill your mother?
WOW
I only do what is right and just, killing my own mother isn't right and just. Besides Jesus wouldn't order me to kill one of his own and my own mother is a Christian and Catholic just as I am. So my question to you is if the Devil said jump off a bridge would you do it? That's the same thing you did and said to me. So turn around it's fair play. And I'm not sorry I am handicapped..that's part of what brought me so deep in my faith! Maybe you should go volunteer inside a mental health facility, maybe you would learn to appreciate life for what it is. Instead of taking everyday like it's meant to happen. Because God does know what you really do or what your going to do but he gives you freedom of choice. And he judges you by the choices you make. And how you make those choices does effect the rest of your life and others around you. So my challenge to you is go make somebody's life pleasant instead of trying to make somebody's life miserable. Because you are not succeeding at making my life miserable anyways even though that is what you're trying to do. I know your going to say why should I help, and screw this, because maybe one day the shoe will be on the opposite foot. And you will just be dependent on other people just like those people are and how I am myself. P.S....once a believer always a believer:)
What do you mean he wouldn't? He's done it before.
What makes you think that I don't appreciate life? I appreciate it probably more than you because i KNOW this all there is while you think heaven awaits.
Please answer this question.
If your god knows the future, how do you have freewill?
If he knows you will kill someone tomorrow at exactly 1pm, how would you use free will to avoid it?
Look, I'm sorry you have go thru life they way you are, but facts are facts and I just can't lie or live a lie.
Your hero should be Stephen Hawking, he has lived his life against the most insane conditions and never accepted the lie of the gods.
Who said I'm trying to make you "miserable"? I'm only debating for the sake of truth. You either take it or keep living your fantasy. As long as you don't indoctrinate children before they can think on their own, it's not of my business what you believe or not. As long as religion stays out of government, we don't care.
I don't believe in the devil, why would I possibly obey him? It's a silly question.
Once a believer, always a believer? Where did you hear that? You understand that there are millions of people who were once believers, but changed their minds and are atheists now, right?
He doesn't try to stop you, he tries to discourage you from doing the bad things. That's where the fight between the Devil and Christ come into play. Remember what I said before Christ is always in a battle with the Devil. This is partly what I mean by that. The Devil tries to tell you one thing, and Christ is trying to tell you another. And then your right in the middle trying to decide which way to go and it's like that with every decision you make no matter if your conscience of it or not. I never said you were making me miserable myself, I wouldn't allow you to succeed at that! I am the one with Christ on my side it's not my fault you decided to leave what ever faith you were if you ever even had one, If you ever even believed. Not trying to past judgment just stating where I stand. I am more than proud of my faith and my beliefs and will stand behind it all 100%. You can stick to yours after all we have that right and we also have no matter whether you believe or not we also have free will. I can't answer why believers change to atheists but usually it is becomes something bad has happened in the past and they never truly get over the bad experience....such as the loss of a loved one, parent's being separated, abuse-child or physical,even psychological abuse...however some people come out of those situations fine and some it effects their life for long periods of time and some of them even the res of their lives. God is not the reason for all the above..it lays in the hands of those that have free will and the fact that they abuse that freewill. Have you ever heard of a thing if one person can ruin something all the rest of the people can Adam and Eve did this when they ate the apple, that's why God doesn't just give you everything. You have to earn the right to get to wherever this world leads us, and some people believe we're on the road to nowhere....and that's their right to believe in that. That's their God given right to believe in that.
Hey man, I didn't know you had that decease. Sorry to hear that.
* disease, not decease
lol... yeah
joncraft84
"It may be legal in law but not through Jesus eyes. In Jesus eyes it is unjust and murder, and I think most of the time I take what Jesus says to be the right and just thing to do"
Jesus and the rest of the Bible NEVER mentioned abortion. Have you read a Bible? It does say, however, that at one point God torturously killed, by drowning, EVERY fetus on the face of the earth.
You skipped the gay question again. When dealing with gays, why do so many Christian HYPOCRITES choose to ignore the FAR MORE IMPORTANT Golden Rule?
joncraft84,
"So my challenge to you is go make somebody's life pleasant instead of trying to make somebody's life miserable."
So why do so many Christian hypocrites (and you???) try to make the lives of gays miserable?
We don't try to make the gays miserable..they make their selves miserable when they only want to communicate with their own kind and most gays want to show their love towards one another openly and it's in our human nature when we see something wrong with something we like to confront it. As long as gays don't share their affection for one another out in public don't act like their all like look at me I'm king of the world, nothing can touch me, I'm in palpable. Like in other words nothing can touch them, nothing can phase them. When we all know they're just humans just like us, they're going to die to sometimes they even act like they can't die, they can't do anything wrong. They get mad at us when we try to prove to them that something can go wrong, they can make mistakes, they can lie and so on and so on.
joncraft84,
What an ignorant and thoughtless view of gays.
As is typical of most Christian HYPOCRITES, you never once mentioned the MORE IMPORTANT Golden Rule.
It's all pick and choose HYPOCRISY.
I just saw a magical unicorn fly over your house.
They do exist. (rolls eyes)
Until you have to deal with the devil, you may not understand that he really does exist. But when you find out that he really does, just ask for Jesus Christ our Savior's help and he will help you.
Instead of just being repet!tive, how about you try to convince us your beliefs are based in reality?
My belief comes from two thousand years of Catholic religion. Another piece of it is to read the Bible. When you have a disability like I do, you run into conflicts in your life. Where do these conflicts come from. Then you realize they come from nobody but the devil himself. Only the devil can think of something so evil. Also along with 2,000 years of faith I have 2.000 years of tradition that goes along with my faith.
Please state your disability.
Mr I think you need to do some major soul searching before you go judging other people on their belief and saying they're not real when you don't know what is real yourself. I think your the one who needs help. By the way my disability is classified in the book as Cerebral Palsy. What's yours classification? Oh I forgot you don't think your the crazy one, do you? You don't think 2000 yrs of beliefs amounts to anything. Even though it's on the best sellers list, and it has been for centuries. You don't think that counts for anything, it does in my view of things. Do you have a comment for this? Oh I forgot you have a comment for everything!
So you have beliefs or feelings but no real evidence or proof. Thanks.
The Bible is my proof. After all the Bible is a living word applicable even to today's situations.
You would think it would go without saying that the book of a god would apply to everyone at any point in time.
But actually it doesn't. The bible doesn't survive Genesis 1. That is ONE SINGLE SENTENCE, before manifesting that it is nothing more than an ancient book written by ignorant humans of the 1st century.
Exactly what makes you believe that this is the word of a god?
It was written by prophets. Every time you read it, you get something else out of it. And I believe that is the spirit talking to you of God talking to you. You say it ends with Genesis, tell me then why is it still on the best sellers list still to this day? It sounds to me like your ignoring the truth. Because you only want to believe in something you can see and nobody can ever prove God exists. And you can't see God so therefore you don't want to believe in him. That's where faith comes in. You have to have faith to be able to believe in God. Do you have faith that tomorrow will come or are you just thinking that since it has always come before it will come again. If you are taking everyday life for granted then nothing good then you will be surprised when God comes back. I hope you are ready for him. It sounds like your taking everything in your life like it will be there tomorrow. And the truth is we don't know if tomorrow if the sun will continue to rise. Like it did today.
I just made a deal with the devil and my .oz was a little light. Think jesus can help me with that?
Prove to me you exist. But keep in mind I won't accept any thing you say because you don't exist. If you friends or family try to tell me I won't believe them either – they are delusional because they think you exist. Such are the thin arguments of the Atheist.
Hypocrisy.
Like every religious person, you misunderstand science. Simply because we don't assign 100% certainty to our existence, it doesn't mean we don't exist. The probabilities that we exist are equivalent to that of oxygen, which are 99.999999%
The probability of your god based on all experiments for the last 150 years is minus 99.99999%.
Do you see the difference? Or do you need a cartoon to understand the concept?
Is science the only type of knowledge? Science measures physical objects interacting with other physical objects. How then would you measure goodness, goodwill, evil, truth, beauty, justice, fairness, and love? Even though science can't accurately measure the love you have for your child or pet, does not disprove the existence of love in the heart of people?
Mark: "Even though science can't accurately measure the love you have for your child or pet,"
Just because we don't have all the answers doesn't mean there is a higher being watching over us right now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jBUtKYRxnA
No, you are measuring electrical activity in the brain. A blind man may no the specific light frequencies of color, but he does not really know what a color looks like. A man born deaf may know the frequency of C#, but he does not know it truly. So you can take a measurement; a measurement is a partial truth.
We cannot (yet) directly measure love. However, we can use "love" as a working theory to make educated predictions (hypotheses) about behaviors that we can observe. In the future, neurobiology may be able to observe and quantify love more precisely.
Up until the past couple of decades, we couldn't directly observe atoms, either. But since the 1800's there was no real doubt about their existence, because the *effect* of atoms could be seen in how substances combine in chemical reactions.
If you want to split philosophical hairs, you can argue the difference between "love" and "the electrochemical phenomena in the brain that are responsible for the behavior and perceptions we associate with love". You can also debate the difference between "the desk in front of me" and "the collection of atoms and electron fields that are responsible for what I perceive to be a desk in front of me". Such debates rarely lead anywhere useful.
Well said.
I dunno... he kinda looks like God at the beginning of that video... maybe he is real after all! .... nah.
All the answers? U got zero
We have zero?
Well that proves how ignorant you truly are.
We know the elements of planets billions of light years away!
We know where we came from and what we are made off.
We know where we live and how the planet got here.
We even know when our star will dye!
We have satellites and space stations.
What do you know? Man living in fish and talking snakes?
Go get help!
All the answers? U got zero!
Things like love can't be measured in the literal sense. We can't take a ruler and measure how much someone loves another.
However, love is demonstrable. We act a certain way when we're experiencing love. Since it's demonstrable, we have evidence that it exists.
More to the point, I'm not sure why you would need to measure emotions in the way you're presenting.
What is the greatest measure of love then tony?
Again, I'm not sure why measuring it is needed. It's not on a continuum. You either love someone (romantic/platonic/whatever) or you do not.
If I love someone, I'm not going to smack them in the face every time I see them. I would not be demonstrating love, and there would be no reason to believe I love that person.
If I love someone I could do any number of things to/for that person such as spending more time with them, sharing secrets, doing favors, etc. We can evaluate my actions and say that I'm demonstrating love towards a person, and from there it's entirely reasonable to think that I do love the individual I claim to love.
BD
The greatest measure of love is most likely self sacrifice, which is one of the main reaasons that the writers of the bible used that as a driving factor for the metaphoric charcater of Jesus, aka the living embodiment of all things we consider good. Similarly, the metaphoric character of satan ia all we consider to be "bad".
Yet we can measure the hormone oxytocin that actually creatures the feeling you call 'love'. In our lifetimes we will definitely be able to measure emotions. It's already happening. I wonder what sort of rationalization you'll come up with then.
Justice and truth are not emotions. The are immaterial concepts of morality that move people.
OMG - "hormone oxytocin that actually creatures the feeling you call 'love'" (creates) - I have degrees in neuroscience and medicine, and one of the things I learned early on is that association is not causation.
So, go back to the books and start with that. Then maybe learn more about the scientific method before trying to convince me that science has (or will ever have) explanations for every bit of the human experience.
JM, how do you know that there won't come a time when we have all the answers?
In the last 100 years we've achieved things that would have been considered miracles in the past.
Do you really think that 500 years from now we won't be able to replicate the ENTIRE human experience in a robot?
I don't have to be a neuroscientist to know that we will.
Her point stands, we will be able to replicate love and every other emotion there is via synthetic chemicals.
It's just a matter of time.
Who cares about measurement? Can you convey love, anger, etc. other without subjectivity? I don't see how such an argument helps the theistic claim of the "existence" of "pure" or "objective" morality/truth.
"Can you convey love, anger, etc. other without subjectivity?"
rather "Can you convey or describe love, anger, etc. to or about someone without subjectivity?"
actually, they can measure love. they can watch brains light up with activity when someone thinking about a loved one. it's been done in laboratory settings. i'm too lazy to go look for the research cases, but look them up yourself. not hard to find.
scientists can measure love.
I heard something about this process. Is it more they can say "this person is in love" or is it closer to "this person is THIS MUCH in love."?
Or, from another angle, is it more like "these areas of the brain are consistent with love, so we can determine their true feelings."?
I'm just curious what the end result was.
No, you are measuring electrical activity in the brain. A blind man may no the specific light frequencies of color, but he does not really know what a color looks like.
Mark,
Are you saying electrical activity of the brain isn't demonstrable evidence of a phenomenon?
To answer you Tony, I believe electrical activity is a measure of a phenomenon but it's still a measurement. It tells you what the measurement is of an emotion, not what the emotion is. Just like my blind man example. If I stimulate the area of the brain where "empathy" resides, I haven't really created empathy. Empathy is built on true experience. Justice, Truth, Courage, these are virtuous principles. How do you measure those?
Mark,
In your example, you have created empathy. The feeling experienced when you stimulate certain brain centers is just doing what humans do naturally. The feeling experienced is indistinguishable from what is experienced "naturally".
Those three examples you listed aren't emotions or feelings, but I'll switch gears. Those can all be demonstrated to exist without any supernatural claim.
For example, let's say I'm stabbed in the street. The police catch the guy that stabbed me and for every pint of blood I lost, the attacker is awarded $1000. That's clearly not just. We can both think of examples of punishments that would be fair, an they might not overlap, but the idea of justice is still there: punishing something that causes harm.
In regards to truth, things are either true or not true. For example, I am not a dog. That is an established fact and it is true with or without the existence of a deity.
Courage is simply demonstrating an ability to act in the face of fear, and I don't see the need for a god there either.
Again, those things you listed don't need to be measurable to prove their existence; but they do need to be demonstrable.
Tony, you prove my point. Science is not the only type of knowledge. You are right, they are simply demonstrable. And therefore axiomatic!
Mark,
Science deals exclusively in things that are demonstrable/measurable. I agree, they are axiomatic.
With that in mind, why do you seem to need to put a god in the equation?
There is such a thing as statistics. Look up religion of prisoners and you will see evidence that Christianity and morality are not synonymous. History also proves this.
No trying to knock Christianity, most Christians are good people. But there is no evidence that being Christian makes you a better person.
Actually for many Protestants belief in God and His son won't necessarily make you a better person. True belief is necessary for salvation, not good behavior. The greatest sinner can be saved by truly believing in God and His son, while a morally upright atheist will go to H^&l. For them salvation is only possible through faith. Moral behavior is not contingent on a belief in a supreme being.
Just because science can't fully explain human emotions (yet), how does it follow that religion or the supernatural (same thing) must have something to do with it? It's like claiming that religion is the source of human morality, which is demonstrably nonsense. It's been the cop-out of the weak-minded for millennia. Thunder? Thor must be throwing his hammer across the sky. Earthquake? The great juju in the mountains must have indigestion. Religion is a crutch for the intellectually and emotionally lazy, and a handy tool for controlling those same people – nothing more.
Love is a feeling, religion is not a feeling, it is a belief in something that is not real. Love does not exist in your heart, it exists in your mind. Your heart is a muscle used to pump blood throughout your body, and yes this has been proven by science. God is not real.
You are talking about emotions that have a physiological basis. While there may be argument over how they are physically and emotionally manifested, they actually can be measured by monitoring brain activity. Replicatable experiments can and have been run to study them. There is general agreement that such emotions exist and can be monitored and measured. No one has seen gravity itself, but there are phenomnena that are considered to be produced by this force, and there are replicatable tests that produce consistent results. Please, develop a scientific test for the existence of God and other supernatural beings. Tests that produce consistent results as often as they are run. Tests for which the outcome can accurately be predicted. Go for it.
Some estimates say that a majority of U.S. Christians do not believe that Satan is a real entity, but rather a symbol for evil. But how can Christianity divorce itself from Satan when they have already used Satan as a real excuse? Several early Christian apologists including Justin Martyr claimed that it was Satan that planted "fake" messianic stories to occur before the "real" Gospel stories to confuse the faithful. They called it diabolic mimicry (plagiarism in anticipation). Regardless of the what remains of any of these stories, it is quite telling that someone would need to come up with such a strange excuse and claim that it was Satan's work. They had no better way to ward off the charges?
Donna, you touch on something very fundamental about people's beliefs in the stories of the Bible – they have changed since its creation because of the things that science and medicine have discovered.
The thing that stays the same however is that there is a God. It always gets me thinking when I see the reasoning of atheists. I wonder how can they not see the design. The fact that you can contemplate whether or not there is a God should at least be a start. Then let's look at all the design in the universe. I don't mean the things that seem cool..I mean the things that must have been designed by someone or they wouldn't be there. The size of an electron, the speed of light, the pull of gravity. Even the physical placement of things in our solar system like the moon. You believe that all this just happened to be perfect for us? Because after all if the speed of light were any faster or slower life couldn't be sustained. And the fact that light has a constant speed at all is actually kind of weird also. Because it's been thought that if there are no designed laws, light should be able to vary in speed. It doesn't change though and the fact that it doesn't change just so happens to help sustain life. That's not odd to you? It doesn't seem like something designed it to be that way? It sure seems like we just walked into a hotel room and everything is exactly the way we would want it.. from the curtains, to the brand of shampoo and the clothes in the closet .. everything is exactly the way we want it...they're all perfect and you think it's just a coincidence. No...there's no coincidence here. Everything is perfect because it was designed that way. You can say it just happened and so here we are ...but you atheists like to reason right? That train of thought doesn't make much sense.. 'it just happened'?
Oh Creationists. It is much easier to understand and believe in a big bang theory of creation than to believe some all powerful being created all of this in an intelligent design format. You will probably ask well what was before the big bang or what created the big bang? Nothiness. What created your god? Nothingness? Or has he just always been? Creationists never have a reliable answer for what created God. I won't lie I sometimes see things in nature that make me say wow, I can see how creationists think that this was created by some divine intelligence. Then I remember it is called evolution that took millions of years and a lot of luck and randomness in a never ending expense of space.
Well I'm not really saying the big bang didn't happen. You're right that my views are close to the typical creationists but I do believe the big bang happened. I'm narrowing it down a little more though and saying after the bang happened the way the laws worked out, it must have been designed. When you say it took a lot of luck and randomness in a near never ending space, I can't help but think you're selling yourself (us) short. It just feels like there's more to it than that. It's more than just it happened this way and here we are, if it didn't happen this way we wouldn't be here. I don't think this kind of luck happens. I buy a lot of powerball tickets... I'm not that lucky.
Why then did "God" create the Earth in such a way that the American Midwest is habitually plagued by tornadoes? Why does our East Coast consistenly get slammed by hurricanes? Why is the surface of the Earth made up of tectonic plates, whose interaction causes deadly earthquakes? And, moving out into the solar system, why is there an asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter? Did "God" try to make a planet there and not get it right?
Natural design is a label we has come up with. What if the universe has always existed and was not created? Actually when you closely examine the import of eternity, it becomes difficult to explain creation, at least creation of all that is.
Scalia is exposing religion as the ultimate conspiracy theory: eternal certainty/bigotry/faith in some universal deception/test invoked to defend any random proposal that runs afoul of the evidence. Demonic possession is about as common as witchcraft or dragon slaying, and his interpretation is that Satan is simply being clever. No matter how empty the universe is of gods or demons, Satan is just being clever and God is just testing us: it's nothing less than Newspeak's 'crimestop'.
"No matter how empty the universe is of gods or demons, Satan is just being clever and God is just testing us.."
Truly, it is the never-ending story.
Is there a point at which a Supreme Court justice moves so far away from consensual reality that his credibility on the bench can be called into question? Scalia has appeared delusional before, but statements like this are really over the top.
No there is no such point.
Consensual? That would be Christianity. Still more than 70 percent of Americans claim that belief.
In think in that instance "Christian" would apply to a varied group of beliefs. Not all of which would agree with his views.
He's not demonstrably that far overboard, but from this article, there's no telling how many mice are running around in circles up in his noodle.
Impeachment? How come I hear no calls for impeaching a mentally disturbed fanatical chief justice?
Anyone?
sorry, he's just a justice of the supreme court.... thank god, for small favors.
you act as if that is a small position in our government, when its very very key role in our checks and balances government. Do not downplay the role this man plays in every major court case in the USA. its dangerous to have people of this mindset in power.
Does he hear voices? In general it is not a good thing to be hearing voices when there is no one others can see who is talking to you. Why is it an exception to the rule that you may have mental problems when the voice or voices are supposedly divine? Do we just unquestionably accept them because the interlocutors are God and his minions? The burden of proof should be as strict as that we impose on someone reporting an alien abduction.
Wow. And this guy has our country's fate in his hands.
He does?
He does? Actually only 3.666%. The Government is divided in its powers: Executive, Legislative, and Judicial. 1/3 each. Being 9 justices: 1/3 divided by 9 is 3.66%. The President though has 33%! And he believes in God and even Jesus!
I hope it's more than belief for Mr. Obama.
"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble."
well said
Thats up for debate Mark. Obama may confess to be christian, but its purely political. In reality he is an atheist
And think of our President. Wow! He believes in God and Jesus. He even prays for our country when he says, "God bless America." What audacity when the President invokes God when giving a political speech for the country!
The presdient as an individual is welcome to his beliefs and welcome to voice them. I makes me lose respect for nim when he does it, but then I really haven't had much respect for any president I can remember.
Wait, wait. Isn't the President a Muslim? LMAO
""You know, it is curious," Scalia answered. "In the Gospels, the devil is doing all sorts of things. He’s making pigs run off cliffs, he’s possessing people and whatnot. And that doesn’t happen very much anymore. ... It’s because he’s smart.""
What kind of stupidity is that. If possession of animals was true, it would be terrifying – no need to drop something that works. And as for the possession of people, most people now understand that multiple personality disorder is not something you treat with a priest, preacher, etc. This is yet another example showing false beliefs of the Bible, and I say that as a former Christian.
... and I'll add that I can only imagine what kind of backwards biblical prejudices this man may be harboring. Scary to think he' a Supreme Court Justice. Yeah, viewing this article moves me from thinking religion is nonsense to thinking it actually is harmful.
Just now you realize that?
Religion has been harmful to millions of people for thousands of years.
I'm still trying to understand the purpose of the story of the fall.
One has to presume that since Lucifer/Satan is the manifestation of evil, then God created evil.
The whole notion is nonsense anyway.
How to read the account of the fall
390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man.264 Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents.265
II. THE FALL OF THE ANGELS
391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy.266 Scripture and the Church's Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called "Satan" or the "devil".267 The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."268
392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels.269 This "fall" consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter's words to our first parents: "You will be like God."270 The devil "has sinned from the beginning"; he is "a liar and the father of lies".271
393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels' sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death."272
394 Scripture witnesses to the disastrous influence of the one Jesus calls "a murderer from the beginning", who would even try to divert Jesus from the mission received from his Father.273 "The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil."274 In its consequences the gravest of these works was the mendacious seduction that led man to disobey God.
395 The power of Satan is, nonetheless, not infinite. He is only a creature, powerful from the fact that he is pure spirit, but still a creature. He cannot prevent the building up of God's reign. Although Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Christ Jesus, and although his action may cause grave injuries – of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature- to each man and to society, the action is permitted by divine providence which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but "we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him."275
Why would angels -Satan in particular seeing that he is so smart, oppose an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent being?
the only scenario that works in this case and still have it make any sense at all is if God ordered Satan to play the bad guy.
Goper is spot on here.
I think the motivation is usually noted as pride. That seems to be the source code for all mortal sin.
Have you ever played out a game where you know you are going to lose? I don't care how smart you are, when your opponent is invincible – when you are outclassed in every conceivable way – how much pride can you have?
and why would such a power tolerate insolence of any kind? ,,,,, it would seem to be a colossal waste of time.
Well, you are asking me to mind read not only Satan but God as well, let me check my crystal ball..... Oh, yeah, it says here that it is so that God may reveal His Glory.
Why would God need external validation from the angels – or humanity?
If the story about Satan were true, then it could also be interpreted that God is a great being, but not the supreme being. The commandment demands that the Hebrews only worship Him to the exclusion of other gods. The implication could be that there are other gods. The god of the Hebrews says that He is a jealous god. Jealous of what and whom? Oh, and if He were the supreme being, why would He be jealous of anything? The supreme being would be perfect and without fault. Isn't jealousy a fault? How about anger? The God described in the Old Testament sounds a lot like like any other creature, except more powerful. Apparently He didn't overhear Eve and Satan taling together so He is not omnipresent, i.e., He doesn't know everything that is going on around Him. He can be taken by surprise.
Thanks Bill, I appreciate the genuine response here.
Even if evil is defined as alienation from the divine and bound to the concept of free will, the angelic hosts are part of the creation.
If it is Satan who decieves humans into choosing evil / abandoning God, who decieved Satan?
If you are driving towards the argument that God is the source, I have no issue with that. I think the last paragraph of the catechism I posted states as much.
@Bill Deacon – Are you suggesting we read the Old Testament for truth? The same book that has Noah's Ark, the Tower of Babel, the rescue of Jewish people from the Egyptians, and Adam and Eve? That book, which is full of immoralities committed by God, which by the time the New Testament comes around, God seems to now be all loving and not vengeful? This makes no sense.
Goper said he had difficulty with the story of the fall. Where else would you propose we go for a resource on that topic?
It's a story – it's not a topic. It's not real. My gosh, there is no boogeyman, no hell, except for the ones we willingly choose to create here and torture ourselves with. How silly.
The root of the debate is the existence of evil (and it's mirror – morality / good) as concepts. The notion of free will is sufficient. There is no need for the personification.
The eastern philosophies simply acknowledge it. To Taoism good/evil are part of forces in balance. Paraphrasing Buddhism, "suffering and ignorance exist".
All organisms that form bands or colonies form 'rules' as a form of self preservation. These are morals. Evil / wrongdoing are actions contradictory to the morals.
You have a man with an enormous amount of power here buying in to the entire construct here though. That is unsettling.
Justice Scalia is a Catholic. So are five of the other justices. It is rather astonishing that where WASPs dominate the political right (and so much of American history) the court is this way. Perhaps it is a testament to the Catholic education system?
The devil may be an odd concept, but at least the court is not loaded with Evangelical Protestant fundamentalists demanding "intelligent design" in classrooms.
Evil choices are made by people. If people want to paint these red and add a goatee, horns and a tail, does it change anything?
More unsettling is Scalia's aparrent rejection of Jesus' messages about the poor or otherwise disenfranchised in his opinions.
Truly:)
I guess my apprehension comes from the fact that his religion may affect how he rules – say a Roe vs Wade situation
because for him God and the Devil are actual ent ities – you know that at least one justice on the highest court in the land will most likely put God above impartiality and the separation of church and state even before you step into the courtroom.
And his negative slant on atheists.....well..lets just hope I can have my issues solved in a lower court:)
That is seriously messed up.
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October 7, 2013 at 1:02 pm | Report abuse | Reply
Scalia is right that there is a devil but is wrong in saying that he is a person. The devil is a fallen angel not a person.
The devil is simply known today by different names: Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, Michelle Bachman...
Obama, Reid........and on.....
.....Veronica
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. (Hanlon's razor)
Most apt for Ms. Bachmann, I'd say.
If you are looking for evil at Fox, consider the source, the Chairman and CEO of News Corporation rather than the minions.
Be afraid very afraid.
The devil is a reference to the natural spirit of mankind (John 8:43-45). For better understanding of the spirit of darkness that controls all of mankind, we invite you to read the article 'Who is God and who is Satan' listed on our website http://www.aworlddeceived.ca
All the other pages and articles listed on our website explain how and by whom this whole world has been deceived as confirmed in Revelation 12:9.
Still stealing advertising I see, Andy. How does your god like it when you steal?
AvdBerg,
I know for a fact that you have told lies about people on here.
Peddle your HYPOCRISY elsewhere.
I don't take issue with his beliefs (although, wow), so long as it doesn't influence his decision making (if that's even possible)
And think of our President. Wow! He believes in God and Jesus. He even prays for our country when he says, "God bless America." What audacity when the President invokes God when giving a political speech for the country!
You're missing my point.
What I'm saying is if he holds a belief that humans can fly under the right conditions, and makes a ruling on that belief, he should be held accountable.
But, since it's a religious belief he has, do you think he should get a pass, even though his claims cannot be proven?
Mark, I agree with you completely. Unfortunately, it still benefits politicians to invoke God and Jesus, and so they still do.
I look forward to the day when a politician's belief, lack of belief, or variation in belief in God has no affect on the proportion of voters that support her or him.
(By the way, "belief in God" may be a meaningless phrase unless everyone has the exact same definition for "God.")
I've got Satan in my panties.
Dude with panties?
That's OK; in some states you can still marry.
Ladies and Gentleman: Our justice system.
He IS a 'real person'.....however he is only known by his aliases today.....Exxon/Mobil, JP Morgan, Goldman-Sachs, Bank of America, Citi Group, The Tea Party, ..........etc.
The devil is a sly old fox!
satan is the fallen angel Lucifer.
he also has his own band, it's called 'ghost'
Satan is a master deceiver and blinds the world, Satan has deceived the world and much of the world doesn‘t even know he exists (Rev. 12:9).
Satan has blinded the eyes of those who are lost so that they can not see the gospel of Jesus Christ –2 Cor. 4:4. If we don’t know Christ as our Savior and Lord, as far as God is concerned, we are blind too.
Mark 10:46-52
“Then they came to Jericho. As Jesus and his disciples, together with a large crowd, were leaving the city, a blind man, Bartimaeus (which means “son of Timaeus”), was sitting by the roadside begging. When he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to shout, “Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!” Many rebuked him and told him to be quiet, but he shouted all the more, “Son of David, have mercy on me!” Jesus stopped and said, “Call him.” So they called to the blind man, “Cheer up! On your feet! He’s calling you.” Throwing his cloak aside, he jumped to his feet and came to Jesus. “What do you want me to do for you?” Jesus asked him. The blind man said, “Rabbi, I want to see.” “Go,” said Jesus, “your faith has healed you.” Immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus along the road.”
Here the blind man looks to Jesus to be cured of his blindness, for him his healing is important, he is persistent in seeking the Lord, he gets healed, he sees Jesus and is saved! The devil is a liar and he would want us to remain blind, but the good news is we don't have to stay blind, we can reach out to Jesus and he will save us.
No, my goodness. As a former Christian, I feel sorry for you. Wake up and use your senses.
Since Bartimaeus couldn't see, what senses do you think he should have used?
"As a former Christian....":
As a former Christian what exactly did you believe in? What changed that former belief?
Mordecai.
What changed the belief. Simple. I turned 6. Right around the time i stopped believing in Santa.
Mordecai, This is the internet, anybody can claim to be a former Christian. It's highly unlikely any of these posters here were former Christians, you can spot one from their responses.
There is no such thing as a former Christian. You may be a back slid Christina or a lapsed Christina or an unrepentant Christian or a fallen Christian but once you have been marked by the blood, you are indelibly, eternally marked.
You know, when I read stories like this, and comments like those above, it reminds me of something I learned a long time ago, "Never talk with a crazy person, because someone else watching will not know which one is crazier; the crazy person, or the person willing to talk to a crazy person." Do like Thomas Jefferson did – discard the Old Testament, cut out all of the miraculous nonsense out of the New Testament, and use it as a GUIDE in philosophy, to be supplemented by many other philosophical books.
@Matt-Great post!
Bill Deacon.
How utterly insulting. Christians morals are horrendous, and I refuse to let anyone call me a christian. I don't believe in fairy tales, so the whole myth is ridiculous. I was baptised as an infant, and brought to church for some years as a child, then I rejected the entire idea of gods, since no one could show there were any. I am NOT a christian, I was forced to be one until I grew out of it ( at 6). Now it is HIGHLY insulting for someone to call me a christian, since they are, in my opinion, morraly bereft and delusional.
Bill Deacon:
"..once you have been marked by the blood, you are indelibly, eternally marked."
Marking by blood, yazzah, I do that all the time. I'm pretty sure I made a spot or two on you - oooooga and booooga!
"Here the blind man looks to Jesus to be cured of his blindness, for him his healing is important, he is persistent in seeking the Lord, he gets healed, he sees Jesus and is saved! The devil is a liar and he would want us to remain blind, but the good news is we don't have to stay blind, we can reach out to Jesus and he will save us."
That is the central message in that passage, you have quoted above. Blind Bartimaeus was persistent in seeking God and his eyes were opened.
Reminds of another scripture,
"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you."
Bill
I asked this of you once and I'll ask it again: how does one go about renouncing their former religion?
But it's not real. God doesn't heal amputees nor the genuinely blind. Now and again science is able to help – but there are no true miracles happening. Why not?
Satan is the god of this world,
2 Corinthians 4:4 Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.
Either you worship God or you worship satan.
that is a great example of gnostic theology. Paul had very different beliefs from you. In the mind of a gnostic the world we live in is an illusion created by a lesser god. The real god of the universe sent jesus to inform us of this deception. If you attain the knowledge of jesus (this isn't believing he existed as is preached today but believing in his message and following his lifestyle) than you can transcend this illusionary world and become one with the true god.
Paul would argue that you worship Satan.
Apostle Paul gives a good description of what satan does in this world, satan is the major influence on the ideals, opinions, goals, hopes and views of the majority of people.
his influence also encompasses the world’s philosophies, education, and commerce.
The thoughts, ideas, speculations and false religions of the world are under his control and have sprung from his lies and deceptions.
satan is a master deceiver, his only mission is to turn people away from God.
Agreed. He is a deceiver. Does not even exist and got you, hook, line and sinker.
Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don't understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.
2 Cor. 4
NT,
Atheists and agnostics worship NO ONE.
Your statemment is extremely IGNORANT.