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October 9th, 2013
02:27 PM ET
Creationists taunt atheists in latest billboard warBy Eric Marrapodi, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor (CNN)– A new video billboard in New York's Times Square has a message from creationists, "To all of our atheist friends: Thank God you're wrong." The video advertisement at 42nd Street and Eighth Avenue in Manhattan is one of several billboards going up this week in New York, San Francisco and Los Angeles, paid for by Answers in Genesis. Answers in Genesis is best known as the multimillion-dollar Christian ministry behind the Creation Museum outside Cincinnati. The museum presents the case for Young Earth creationism, following what it says is a literal interpretation of the book of Genesis, which says the Earth was created by God in six days less than 10,000 years ago. Ken Ham, president of Answers in Genesis, said the idea for the advertisements came from an atheist billboard in Times Square at Christmas. During the holidays, the American Atheists put up a billboard with images of Santa Claus and Jesus that read: "Keep the Merry, dump the myth." “The Bible says to contend for the faith,” Ham said. “We thought we should come up with something that would make a statement in the culture, a bold statement, and direct them to our website. "We're not against them personally. We're not trying to attack them personally, but we do believe they're wrong," he said. "From an atheist's perspective, they believe when they die, they cease to exist. And we say 'no, you're not going to cease to exist; you're going to spend eternity with God or without God. And if you're an atheist, you're going to be spending it without God.' " Dave Silverman, president of the American Atheists, said he felt sad for creationists when he saw the billboards. "They refuse to look at the real world. They refuse to look at the evidence we have, and they offer none," Silverman said. "They might as well be saying, 'Thank Zeus you're wrong' or 'Thank Thor you're wrong.' " Silverman said he welcomed another competitor to marketplace, noting that after atheists bought a billboard two years ago in Times Square that read "You KNOW it's a myth," the Catholic League purchased competing space at the entrance to the Lincoln Tunnel for a sign that read "You KNOW it's true." "I would suggest, if they're actually trying to attract atheists, they should talk about proof and reason to believe in their god, not just some pithy play on words," Silverman said. Ham says part of the goal of the campaign is to draw people to the website for Answers in Genesis, where he offers a lengthy post on his beliefs for the proof of God. Ham insists that this campaign is in keeping with their overall mission. "We're a biblical authority ministry. We're really on about the Bible and the Gospel. Now, we do have a specialty in the area of the creation account and Genesis because that's where we say God's word has come under attack." Ham said Answers in Genesis made the decision to split its marketing budget for the ministry between a regional campaign for the museum and this billboard campaign, rather than a national campaign. IRS filings for the ministry in recent years have shown a yearly operating budget of more than $25 million. Ham said the marketing budget is about 2% of that, about $500,000 a year. Though they are waiting for all the bills to come due for this campaign, he said he expected it to cost between $150,000 and $200,000. Silverman noted that his billboards were not video and cost approximately $25,000 last year. He said another campaign was in the works for this year. "They're throwing down the gauntlet, and we're picking it up," Silverman said, adding that his group would "slap them in the face" with it. Ham said that despite criticism from other Christians for being negative and the usual criticisms from secularists he received on his social media accounts, the advertisements have been a success. "We wanted people talking about them, and we wanted discussion about this. We wanted people thinking about God," Ham said. The Creation Museum and the theory of Young Earth creationism are widely reviled by the broader science community. In a YouTube video posted last year titled "Creationism Is Not Appropriate For Children," Bill Nye the Science Guy slammed creationism, imploring parents not to teach it to their children. "We need scientifically literate voters and taxpayers for the future," he said. "We need engineers that can build stuff and solve problems." The museum responded with its own video. For the past 30 years, Gallup Inc. has been tracking American opinions about creationism. In June 2012, Gallup's latest findings showed that 46% of Americans believed in creationism, 32% believed in evolution guided by God, and 15% believed in atheistic evolution. For as long as Gallup has conducted the survey, creationism has remained far and away the most popular answer, with 40% to 47% of Americans surveyed saying they believed that God created humans in their present form at one point within the past 10,000 years. The Creation Museum said it recently welcomed its 2 millionth visitor since its opening in 2007. soundoff (8,748 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 Next »
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  About this blog
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Religious belief is random. Every day, 200,000 babies are born on planet Earth. Each has the ability to breathe, and to evacuate waste. For everything else, they are reliant on whoever is raising them. This reliance includes the education they receive as they grow up, including (or not) religious education. If you cannot see that religious education is based on a) the beliefs of the caregivers and b) the geographical location the child was born in, then you are deluding yourself. To claim one set of religious beliefs is any more valid than any other set of religious beliefs, or no religious belief at all, is ludicrous.
" If you cannot see that religious education is based on a) the beliefs of the caregivers and b) the geographical location the child was born in, then you are deluding yourself."
That's a genetic fallacy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy
"To claim one set of religious beliefs is any more valid than any other set of religious beliefs, or no religious belief at all, is ludicrous."
Religious pluralism, the idea that all religions are equally valid, is clearly false. Jesus said "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6) If that's true, the Christianity is true and the other religions are false. If what Jesus said is not true, then Chrisitanity is not a valid way to God.
Just because someone wrote down 60 years after jesus died that he said it...doesn't mean he said it...did you know that with the main 4 gospels they all differ about the same events? Why is this? They also say 4 different things about what jesus' last words were? Why is this? There are also earlier texts that say differnt things about what happened AFTER Mary was in the tomb that were NOT there in the early copies. How do they know this? Because they compared the earliest copies to the ones in the 3 rd century....your bible is full of serious misquotes. Do some real research.....your bible is not real research...it has been copied over and over and over again and from Greek to Latin to English....no eye witness accounts......all later copies.
Pants on Fire!!
Read it for yourself. Pick up the bible and compare the gospels of the same incident.
You seam to put a lot of stock into what Bart Ehrman says. Even he would tell you that the "differneces" in the gospels is evidence that what they said was true. If the gospels exactly the same, we would expect collusion.
Ok...so I have 4 differnt accounts as to what was said by someone and they all differ and you think this shows that they all did not confer so this makes what is said true.....you don't seem to understand logic do you.
Paul,
How many of the writers saw the resurrection?
How many of the writers ever met Jesus?
How many of the writers ever talked to an actual eyewitness?
dillonb1950,
I understand logic just fine. Do you understand the nature of eyewitness reports?
http://coldcasechristianity.com/2013/applying-four-simple-principles-to-test-the-reliability-of-the-gospels-podcast/
http://coldcasechristianity.com/2013/unbelievable-two-reasons-why-some-people-reject-the-reliability-of-the-gospels/
http://coldcasechristianity.com/2013/unbelievable-is-there-enough-evidence-beyond-the-gospels-to-make-their-testimony-reliable/
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaWRpPKMwX8&w=640&h=360]
Yes I understand EYE WITNESS acounts. When you are writing about a book that you r "faith" is to declare the answer to all our woes and being every word from god then you better either BELIEVE that or see the folly. $ people who were "said" to have been there have 4 differnt accounts as to what was their saviours last words and they all have DIFFERENT accounts which begs the question maybe someone is manipulating the text or they weren't ANY eye witnesses. An "eye witness" can have varyng degrees of what was SEEN but when it comes to words that is a totally different tiger of another stripe isn't it? You would think they would be at least CLOSE in their words to what the saviour said at this historic world event but they are so differnt one wonders if they were at the same event if the event even happened. That's the differnce...HUGE!!!!
"I would suggest, if they're actually trying to attract atheists,
they should talk about proof and reason to believe in their god, not just some pithy play on words," Silverman said.
Then let's talk about PROOF and REASON here, Mr. Silverman!
http://www.holy-19-harvest.com
UNVERSAL MAGNIFICENT MIRACLES
Good News the latest news about evolution.
Which you have a hard time with.
How Climate Change and Plate Tectonics Shaped Human Evolution
The development of the East African Rift valley fragmented the landscape and formed a large number of separate lake basins. The mountainous landscape makes these basins very sensitive to small changes in rainfall. Martin Trauth of Potsdam University and colleagues found geological evidence that deep, freshwater lakes existed around 2.6 million, 1.8 million and 1 million years ago – key dates in human evolutionary history.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-climate-change-and-plate-tectonics-shaped-human-evolution
Big bang (=Cosmic Evolutionary Creation) and Evolution (=Biologic Evolutionary Creation)
are the Two Greatest Miracles of GOD.
See it here:
http://www.holy-19-harvest.com
UNIVERSAL MAGNIFICENT MIRACLES
Good News
A wolf in sheep clothing.
Dogs Likely Originated in Europe More Than 18,000 Years Ago, Biologists Report
Nov. 14, 2013 — Wolves likely were domesticated by European hunter-gatherers more than 18,000 years ago and gradually evolved into dogs that became household pets, UCLA life scientists report.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/11/131114142134.htm
Humans best friend fred and the REPORT made to the LOCAL level news cast.
Good News
The English Lab was domesticated for digging up flower bulbs, and now it is one of the BEST family and BIRD dog there is.
"Dogs Likely Originated in Europe More Than 18,000 Years Ago, Biologists Report"
Key words are "likely" and "biologists"
"Likely" doesn't mean 100% proof.
"Biologists" say things, not science. Science doesn't have a voice to say things with. Phrases like "science says" are reification fallacies.
Reported by the AP DNA study paul
First Fido? DNA study points to Europe as place where wolves evolved into man's best friend
by Associated Press posted on November 17, 2013 01:47AM GMT
For years, scientists have been dogged by this evolution question: Just where did man’s best friend first appear?
Dogs and wolves are the same KIND of animal – the canine kind. Where's your PROOF that they share a common ancestor with humans, bananas, and amoebas?
Paul
You are trying to take the case to ad ridiculum so I'll just act like you asked in a normal way.
The evidence is in the DNA.
The irony of the "KINDS" argument is that it requires "hyperevolution" to account for observable biodiversity in the ~4000 years since departing the ark; a hyperevolution from only a single pair of founding individuals wherein the fixation of alleles and incredible restraint of genetic diversity would effectively preclude such rapid divergence.
You are wasting our time with your blather. Why not take the rest of the weekend off and contemplate the reality of the world and not the fairy tales.
Paul,
Last night you said:
"Now the Lord God HAD FORMED out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky."
– Genesis 2:19 (emphasis added)
"Had formed" is the past perpect tense. It's describing an event that already took place,"
Since the King James version DOES NOT have the CRITICAL word "HAD" in it, it must be wrong by your standards. It completely changes the meaning.
Since the King James Bible is WRONG, what is a TRUE Bible?
Technically, the King James isn't wrong. The Hebrew can be translated either way. But given the context of the story, Genesis 2:19 is talking about an event that already occured. Genesis 1 gives an overview of the creation week, Genesis 2 gives the details about day 6.
Paul,
Your entire argument was based on a word NOT in the King James Bible, but you either FALSELY added it or found a version of the Bible you thought was not WRONG.
(Gen. 1:25-26) “God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything
that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good. Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our
image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over
the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
(Gen. 2:18-19) “Then the Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable
for him.” Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them
to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name.”
Ooops!
.
"Your entire argument was based on a word NOT in the King James Bible, but you either FALSELY added it or found a version of the Bible you thought was not WRONG."
My entire argument was not based on a word that wasn't in the King James Bible. YOU assumed that the King James was wrong, becase a word was not it. But as I explained to you, the Hebrew can be translated either way. As I've also explained many times before, context is important.
Paul,
Here are your EXACT words. Am I quoting an unreliable source? Was someone else going into an English GRAMMAR lecture to justify their argument.
"Now the Lord God HAD FORMED out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky."
– Genesis 2:19 (emphasis added)
"Had formed" is the past perpect tense. It's describing an event that already took place,"
It was your EMPHASIS. It was your use of a word that ISN'T there. Not much for credibility when you do that.
Observer,
What part of "the Hebrew can be translated either way" don't you understand? It can be translated "formed" or "had formed."
What part of "context" don't you understand? It's describing an event that already took place.
the so called atheist try to make money by building atheist community 🙂 It is funny.
It is kinda funny, huh? Yummy 😛
everyone knows that xtians have no proof, only faith. that is the basis for their religion. if they say there's proof, then they are not relying on faith. their proof is faith in the bible. that just doesn't work in a logical argument.
"everyone knows that xtians have no proof..."
Boy, talk about fallacies. Try providing proof you that claim.
"...only faith."
Faith: trust, confidence
That is the definition of faith that Christians use. But the faiith the atheists think that Christians have is blind faith, or faith without or in spite of the evidence. Blind faith is not the type of faith that Christians have.
boy, talk about logical fallacies. you provide absolutely no proof to backup your arguments. you are guilty of false authority.
prove the existence of god or get off the pot.
I have to disagree with you, ether. Christians certainly have no proof, but many do not recognize that fact.
they know it, but their faith prohibits the eventual mea culpa.
Paul : I have "confidence" the sun will rise tomorrow, based on the evidence that it has in fact risen on every one of the 21,000+ days I have been alive. You say you have confidence that your god exists based on ... what? What you have, my friend, is faith.
Yes, as I've already stated, I have faith. Faith meaning trust and confidence.
Didn't someone say that Hebrews 1 gives a great definition of what "faith" is.
dillonb1950,
Yes, it's "the evidence of things unseen." We have evidence of the wind, gravity, emotions. We don't seem them, but we see their effects. God is the same way.
There is DIRECT SEEN EVIDENCE of the first three. A sheet in the wind. SEEN EVIDENCE. An angry man...punch to the head...body language and a hundred other SEEN emotional evidences.Gravity...the SEEN pull of an object on another. God.....???? Can not be SEEN and EVIDENCED. You have to skip a crucial step with this one. Can you guess what it is?
Faith IS blind BY DEFINITION! LOL at trying to redefine the word faith when you believe it on a complete whim! Either way there is NO PROOF, not evidence a shred of physical evidence. Some dude compiled a bunch of short stories into a big book. That's the only thing the bible proves.
" ...if they say there's proof, then they are not relying on faith."
Proof and evidence are not incompatible with faith. As I already pointed out above, you are using the wrong definition of faith. Faith means to have trust and confidence. In order to have trust and confidence, you need evidence. Faith and knowledge are companions that help us place our trust in God. The ability to trust increases as knowledge increases. There is no leap of faith, no blind faith. Just a reasonalbe step of trust in something we have excellent reasons to believe is true.
This is the crux of the arguement!!!!...you have "excellent reasons" to believe is true. Well this is what we've been asking you ....what are your excellent REASONs?????
Here's 20:
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1UYjR9UUMI&w=560&h=315]
No PROOF. Wishful thinking doesn't count for anything when PROOF is asked for.
Observer,
So you don't have any counter arguments? Just your personal opinion?
Paul,
You have ZERO reproducible PROOF.
God could easily settle this in less than FIVE SECONDS with a simple oral announcement to the whole world. It would supposedly save BILLIONS of souls, but that is asking too much of the "loving" God.
1. Fine-tuning/Intelligent Design/DNA/Big Bang: At it's heart, fine-tuning argues that if things were any different, then things would be different. It's akin to arguing a pothole was "designed" because it perfectly holds a specific shape/volume of water; any change, and it would no longer hold that precise shape/volume of water. ID inversely argues that the water in the pothole is designed because it so perfectly fits the shape and volume of the pothole. Numerous experiments and observations have demonstrated the ability of purely natural mechanisms to generate novel functionality in DNA/RNA, e.g. Lenski's E. coli, RNA aptamers, Pod Mrcaru lizards, etc. There is no evidence indicating casual agency behind the expansion of the universe. Theists invoke special pleading via an argument by definitional fiat to exclude their preferred cause from their premise of everything must have a cause, i.e. the "causeless cause." Paul amends the argument to include "everything with a beginning"; however, this does not rescue the argument by definitional fiat, nor does it change that there was a something before the expansion. Paul has claimed the impossibility of an infinite chain of causation; however, he cannot point to some number of events upon which there can be no preceding event.
2. Morality – Empathy is sufficient to provide workable morality. That humans appreciate conflicts between their behaviors and some abstraction of perfection is not evidence of a divine source of morality. The bible clearly provides for the keeping of foreign born slaves as personal property, it commands the slaughter of children and infants, etc.
3. Consistency/Historicity/Preservation of the Bible: There are numerous doublets throughout the bible which provide inconsistencies. Despite the claim of being divinely inspired, there are numerous discrepancies in particular details within the Gospels. That a work of historical fiction includes demonstrable historical places, people, etc, does not transform its supernatural claims into a reliable historical account. Fidelity in copying of text does not translate into validity of the narrative contained within the text.
4. Archeology: Despite centuries of searching, there is no evidence for the exodus out of Egypt. Despite centuries of searching, there has been no discovery of Noah's Ark. Etc, etc.
5. "Honesty"/Statements against self-interest: 25% of those exonerated by Innocence Project DNA testing made incriminating statements, pleaded guilty, or outright confessed. Statements against one's interest are not inherently more reliable than statements in favor of one's interest.
6. Fulfilled Prophecies: Nostradamus, Dionne Warwick's "Psychic Hotline," weekly horoscopes and innumerable fortune cookies have made successful predictions. Furthermore, when one is familiar with a prior prophesy, it's not to difficult to contrive fulfillment.
7. Emergent Church/Changed Lives: Many religions have arisen and spread; all believe(d) theirs was the "truth" and changed their behaviors according to their new found beliefs.
8. Willingness of Disciples to die: The 9/11 terrorists, Heaven's Gate Cult, Branch Davidians, etc all willingly died for their beliefs. Willingness to die for a belief does not equal validity for the belief. Paul previously responded stating that the disciples didn't merely believe, but that they "knew"; however, Paul can provide no support for this claim. Effectively, Paul stated his belief that he, in fact, "knows" the minds of the disciples (via hearsay no less) and further believes that he "knows" the minds of the individuals in the aforementioned examples.
9. Changed Minds of Skeptics: Although skeptics do convert, so too do theists convert. A conversion one way or the other does nothing to support the validity of the newly adopted position.
10. The rest were simply self-referenced claims with no objective empirical extrinsic support.
Observer,
You've provided ZERO counter arguments.
How many times do I have to post the EVIDENCE found by this biblical scholar and professer...one more time...watch the video....then comment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0zWbL8Uqfw#t=35
Almost forgot one . . .
Timing of the Testimonies: If temporal/spatial proximity is a reliable metric for reliability, then the 11 Witnesses who affirmed Joseph's Smiths Golden Plates indicates the Book of Mormon is more reliable than the Bible.
Paul,
Neither atheists nor believers can prove God exists or not.
It is FAR EASIER to prove something DOES exist than it doesn't.
You have the FAR EASIER job to prove you are right. So far you have: ZILCH.
Taurus, Aries, Pisces, and Aquarius. What do they have in common with the Bible? Everything. Lets change the names: Moses time, Jews time (before Jesus), Jesus, and whats next? Next age isn't the comic book called revelations.
Spoken like a true Zeitgeist Movie disciple.
Nope. Spoken like somebody that understands world history. Christianity borrowed themes from many ancient religions. Disputing that is like disputing the earth revolving around the sun.
God of the gaps. It's an expression to denote what theists use to "fill in the void" for the unknown. Some people are just not comfortable at all with the unknown.
As astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson explains in his talk The Perimeter of Ignorance, throughout history many of the great minds give virtually no mention to any god for their discoveries and explanations. (Ptolemy, Isaac Newton, Laplace, Huygens, Galileo.) That is, until they reach the problem they feel they cannot and will never fully tackle.
I wonder if that is all God has ever been – a placeholder for discomfort or frustration over the unknown; an excuse of last resort when, for one reason or another, one gives up investigation. It is at that point of discomfort over the unknown when one should remember what humanity has already witnessed: that today's scientific explanations were often yesterday's gods.
What is the effect when man relies solely on his gap-filling gods? Consider this:
Two-thirds of star names have Arabic names. They came from Islam's fertile period (AD 800-1100.) During that time Baghdad was the intellectual center of the world, open to people of all or no faiths. During that time were some of the greatest advances known to mankind: engineering, biology, medicine, mathematics, celestial navigation; this is the time and place that gave us numerals we use, terms like algebra and algorithm.
Enter Imam Hamid al-Ghazali in the 12th century. The fundamentally religious period of Islam begins, and so begins the steady decline of free intellectual expression in that area of the world. Some would argue that it has since never recovered.
Of course the effects of such reliance touches us today – even in the U.S. We see some who refuse medical care for their children for instance.
"[If] the nature of... government [were] a subordination of the civil to the ecclesiastical power, I [would] consider it as desperate for long years to come. Their steady habits [will] exclude the advances of information, and they [will] seem exactly where they [have always been]. And there [the] clergy will always keep them if they can. [They] will follow the bark of liberty only by the help of a tow-rope." –Thomas Jefferson
I don't disagree with anything you said except for the numerals we use today. The so-called "Arabic" numerals were obtained by seafaring Arab traders from ancient India where it was in widespread use.
Yikes! That Arabic world that birthed the name of all those stars is also responsible for one of the most horrific enslavement of human beings in the history of humankind. Horrible torture and murder.
"God of the gaps. It's an expression to denote what theists use to "fill in the void" for the unknown. Some people are just not comfortable at all with the unknown. "
–Doris
As I've told you before, that argument doesn't hold any water. It's a straw man argument. God is not used to "fill the void" as you say. God is an inference based on the evidence – it's a conclusion based on what we know, not what we don't know.
Atheists can't think for themselves, they just copy and past pre-packaged answers.
900 atheists just converted to xtianity based on your comment.
Similar to theists quoting scripture?
it's not a straw man argument. there is no misrepresentation, paul. you're just trying to sound smart, when you are really looking like a religious fool. speaking of logical fallacies, your claim of god's existence 'based on the evidence' is begging the question.
"As I've told you before, that argument doesn't hold any water. It's a straw man argument. God is not used to "fill the void" as you say. God is an inference based on the evidence – it's a conclusion based on what we know, not what we don't know."
We understand the "how" (i.e. the relevant physical mechanisms) of evolution and have recorded the process in real time, from mutation in DNA up through manifestation in superior fitness. We further understand the "how" of evolution with respect to divergent lineages and forms. Most importantly, our understanding of evolution's "how" is validated in applications ranging from medicine to agriculture to engineering.
ID/creationism is an argument of incredulity based in an argument of ignorance, i.e. "evolution (allegedly) can't explain 'X'; therefore, God did it." ID/creationism offers no positive empirical physical evidence. It cannot. This is because its mechanism is the undetectable "mysterious ways" of an undetectable deity. An explanation which accounts for any and every possible observation, effectively explains nothing because it cannot be falsified. "God did it" is a clear example of such explanations; attempting to fill the mechanism void with a flat, unsupported claim wherein the mechanism is conceded to be effectively unknown and unknowable.
If this is not the ID/creationism argument, then feel free to describe the verifiable and falsifiable mechanism of ID/creationism (and thereby, rectify the failings of every pro-ID/creationism defendant in all of the evolution v. ID/creationism cases, from McLean v. Arkansas Board of Education right up through Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School Board).
What evidence?
"Colin, I hope you don't misrepresent Jews as badly as you misrepresent atheists. You might want to start with the Wiki page on atheism just to get some basics that you are severely lacking."
-Doris, November 14, 2013 at 12:50 pm
Well Doris, you're misrepresenting theiests. Be sure to remove the beam from your own eye before telling someone to take the speck out of their eye.
you claim misrepresentation without backing it up. your debating skills are terrible.
Read my post dated November 14, 2013 at 6:16 pm
LOL, Paul doesn't get the whole "god of the gaps" reasoning. How funny.
no thanks, paul. do your own homework.
"no thanks, paul. do your own homework."
I had already done the homework when you falsly claimed "you claim misrepresentation without backing it up." Read my post dated November 14, 2013 at 6:16 pm to see that you're claim is false.
Um. The bible kind of say something about bearing false witness, does it not? Stop lying. You didn't post any evidence. I've caught you in countless lies since you started posting here. There is no objective evidence of a creator. NONE. I understand you don't like that FACT, but that's the way it is unless somebody actually finds it. Circ-umstantial evidence doesn't count.
Can the creationists explain why, in Genesis 1, the animals are created first, followed by Adam, but in Genesis 2, Adam is created first followed by the animals for him to name?
And why does the one god say "Let us make man in our image" and even the sons of the gods are mentioned (Genesis 6)?.
"Can the creationists explain why, in Genesis 1, the animals are created first, followed by Adam, but in Genesis 2, Adam is created first followed by the animals for him to name?"
There isn't a contradiction in the order of creation. The key is found in Genesis 2:19:
"Now the Lord God HAD FORMED out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name."
"Had formed" is the past perfect tense, meaning that it's telling about an event that already took place.
What about the fact that Genesis claims the trees and plants were created before the sun and stars? That sure sounds like it was written by someone who didn't understand photosynthesis.
Go to answers in genesis and search it.
Not even an issue when you understand it.
Light was created on Day 1. There was plenty of light for the plants and trees. Besides, the sun was created the day after the plants and the trees so they would've just used the light for 1 day.
Paul Bryce
why go there when the talking donkey can tell you ?
correction:
"...FROM day 1"
Is this discussion seriously happening? Are there people here who have no idea how stellar and planetary evolution works? How ignorant of established fact do you have to be to claim that there were plants surviving on magical "light" before the sun was "put in place?"
Really? We're discussing something so ridiculous? Where's the discussion on special ordering your own custom unicorn? That blog has got to be more sensible.
I cannot stop laughing.
Cpt,. Obvious,
Magical light is your term, not mine. I just said that God created light on day 1. Light is what is needed for photosynthesis.
us-God the Father,God the Son,God the Holy Spirit(trinity). sons of god-angelic beings
testing
"They refuse to look at the real world. They refuse to look at the evidence we have, and they offer none," Silverman said.
Here is The Evidence you are asking for, Mr. Silverman!
http://www.holy-19-harvest.com
UNIVERSAL MAGNIFICENT MIRACLES
Good News and OV below
Here is one with PICTURES you do not have to read just look at the pictures.
November 12, 2013
Traces of 'Microbial Cities' a Record 3.49 Billion Years Old Discovered –"Communicating Via Chemical Signals"
http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2013/11/traces-of-microbial-cities-a-record-349-billion-years-old-discovered-communicating-via-chemical-sign.html
Why Some Atheists Don't Feel Fear...
Have you ever wondered why some atheists can say anything and don't feel bad about it? Have you ever wondered why some can say they don't fear God, don't fear hell and the lake, and don't fear any threats from you or me? There is a reason why they say that. And to an extent they are correct. Some atheists really don't feel certain kinds of fear. And the following is the truth of it...
Inside the soul of every person, God created something call a "condemner". The purpose of the condemner is to begin operating and condemning you whenever you do something wrong. When you do good things, it doesn't condemn you. But when you do bad things, it does. For example, whenever you hear someone say their conscious is bothering them, all it really means is their condemner is operating. Well, what some people do is they will fight back against their condemner, and will fight against it so violently in their minds, will fight against the truth and fight against what is right, until they will actually destroy their own condemner, to where it no longer operates. And if it does operate, it operates very weakly. The bible speaks of that process, the process of a person doing that. It's called "searing your conscious with a hot iron"...
1 Timothy 4:2 – Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Any person who has done that is capable of anything. They could do it and have no feelings for it. They could murder you or ra-pe you, and think nothing of it. They could slit your throat and spit in your face and walk away from it feeling good about it. And that is precisely what violent criminals have done. They have destroyed their own condemner. They have destroyed the very mechanism within themselves which makes them have feelings like the rest of us. And once destroyed, there is no way back. Once a person has destroyed their condemner, there is no way for them to be saved. No person without a conscious or a condemner is going to heaven. No person without a condemner can even approach heaven. Because to be saved, in his great wisdom, one of the requirements the eternal God set is you must be able to repent (see Acts 2:38). Repentance means feeling "godly sorrow" for you sins and for God. Well, if you've destroyed your condemner, then it is impossible for you to do that, to feel sorry for anything. Therefore, you are profane, without conscious and without emotion. So you will not be saved. There is a person in the bible who was like that. His name was Esau, who sold his birthright for a morsel of meat (Hebrews 12:16-17). When Esau later tried to repent for it and to get back in good with God, he found he could not. The bible says he sought repentance carefully with tears. But when God looked into his heart, he saw no repentance, all he saw was "crocodile tears" (meaning, it was only a show and he didn't even mean it). So God said Esau was "profane". And no profane person can make it into heaven. Therefore, destroying your own condemner may seem like a good thing in the short term, and will remove any bad feelings you might have, but in the long term, it will send your soul to hell. And is precisely what most atheists have done. They have resisted the truth so much, until they have destroyed their own condemner. And is why some atheists can say bad things and evil things about God or anyone else and don't feel a thing...
But know this, regardless whether you're profane or not, and regardless whether you've destroyed your condemner or not, you will face judgment on Judgment Day. You shall not escape. Destroying your condemner will have no effect on the pain and the agony and the burning you will feel when you are cast into hell and the lake. Judgment Day is coming for you, no matter who you are...
Matthew 12:26 – But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Romans 14:11 – As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God... God...
And you still don't have a single bit of actual evidence to back up a single claim. F you and F your phony god(s).
What a load of nonsense and a waste of your time to type it.
Atheists don't fear God because they don't think God exists. Is this too complex for you?
Do you fear Darth Vader? Wake up!
Hot Air… Thank you for confirming that my post is true (not that I ever doubted that it was). It's going to be quite interesting when you in particular come up before the throne on Judgment Day, and all your silly and evil comments get played back before the universe. All your friends and family members will get to see the true depth of your evil. You won't be so arrogant then. It's going to be quite interesting to hear your explanation on that day. I wouldn't miss it for the world. You shall not escape. LOL…
Matthew 12:26 – But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Observer… Atheist Rule #1: Denial is the first line of defense of any atheist. Deny anything you don't want to accept…
You atheists are so predictable…
Opposing View,
I asked two questions.
Are you COMPLETELY STUMPED as usual? Still AFRAID to answer?
Please itemize what you think I am denying. And then provide some actual evidence for your delusional claims. Let's see who is in denial about what.
Opposing View,
NO ANSWER from you.
You are so predictable and helpless.
Hot Air… I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm just stating the facts and you can take it or leave it. Furthermore, why would I waste time trying to convince you that you're a liar when you already know that?…
Observer… I don't respond to nonsense…
Opposing View,
Atheists are not afraid of God because they don't believe he exists. They are not afraid of Darth Vader for the same reason.
Why is this so difficult for you to comprehend?
Is it a problem of a lack of intelligence?
Is it a problem that you have a reading comprehension difficulty?
Is it a problem that you don't understand English?
Use EVERY BIT of intelligence and education that you have and see if you are bright enough to understand such a SIMPLE CONCEPT. If you are still STUMPED, ask a 3rd-grade student.
OV,
"Deny anything you don't want to accept…"
Ahem, like calling @Observers questions nonsense...
OV, two very simple questions for you:
I do not know if your god exists – why do you think it does?
I do not believe I have lied – what do you think I have lied about?
"Romans 14:11 – As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."
This sounds more like something that your "Satan" character would say.
Why would Satan want people to confess to God?
It sounds that way to you because you do not have a relationship with a loving God.
You want to make up the rules for yourself.
Tell me something about yourself since arguing is pointless and less effective when you don't know each other.
Married, 4 kids, we homeschool, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. Own a steel fabricating shop, love the outdoors, quad, seadoo, WOT, looking to raise Godly children in an unGodly world.
OV
It looks like you fear answering question I have asked you .
what about the ORIGIN of LIFE paper 300-5 ?
I only fear God and no man.
Fear is looking down an AK-47 and thinking what next.
Or falling out of the sky when the helicopter you are flying gets hit by ground fire.
No gods required !!!
You should fear the Evolutionist/Atheist because he has no moral grounds for not killing you.(Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Minh, etc...) Not saying that killing has not been done by anyone else but 25 million by Stalin? That's 10+ times the amount killed in WWII.
When you die its lights out forever.
Me, when I die I go to a better place so, no fear.
Tell me something about yourself since arguing is pointless and less effective when you don't know each other.
Married, 4 kids, we homeschool, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. Own a steel fabricating shop, love the outdoors, quad, seadoo, WOT, looking to raise Godly children in an unGodly world.
God shouldn't be feared, it's the basics of Christianity. He's loving and kind and if you are Christian you should know this.
1 of hundreds of verses about fearing the Lord. (better read the Bible)
Psalm 103:17
But from everlasting to everlasting the LORD's love is with those who fear him, and his righteousness with their children's children–
Psalm 103:17
But from everlasting to everlasting the LORD's love is with those who fear him, and his righteousness with their children's children–
MORALS/ETHICS
Did not come from the bible.
Do not forget the talking snake.
That was for Paul Bryce
Tell me where they came from then?
Society !
Another magic leap like rock to amoeba to man?
Sorry the evidence is quite clear on this, as man rejects God his morals fail because he has no basis for morals outside God.
mo·ral·i·ty [mə rállətee, maw rállətee]
(plural mo·ral·i·ties)
n
1. accepted moral standards: standards of conduct that are generally accepted as right or proper
2. how right or wrong something is: the rightness or wrongness of something as judged by accepted moral standards
3. virtuous behavior: conduct that is in accord with accepted moral standards
This is why I'm not a fan of the whole morality argument. 'Generally accepted as right or proper'. By whom? If it is generally accepted by the murderer that he or she is acting 'right and/or proper' then does that person have a moral obligation to continue their work?
Morality becomes very fluid, today's virtuous act becomes tomorrow's horror.
Moral in the Morning, but Dishonest in the Afternoon
Oct. 30, 2013 — Our ability to exhibit self-control to avoid cheating or lying is significantly reduced over the course of a day, making us more likely to be dishonest in the afternoon than in the morning, according to findings published in Psychological Science, a journal of the Association for Psychological Science.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/131030093144.htm
"Inside the soul of every person, God created something call a "condemner"."
WOW....that is very scientific!!! Now, give me a hard physical proof of a soul and a "condemner" so that we can all go to sleep tonight feeling good about it. I think you better learn how to "THINK" properly and try to open you eyes to the "real" world.
I don't fear god because I don't believe in god. See how easy that is to explain? Your long-winded post is nothing more than you rationalizing why you fear a god that you can't even prove exists.
Tell me something about yourself since arguing is pointless and less effective when you don't know each other.
Married, 4 kids, we homeschool, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. Own a steel fabricating shop, love the outdoors, quad, seadoo, WOT, looking to raise Godly children in an unGodly world.
Married 37 years, 2 Kids, 6 Grand Kids, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. Raised Roman Catholic, atheist since age of 15. Kids raised with morals, sense of community, empathy. All without religious dogma.
I absolutely hate what you know as religion too.
I have a relationship with Jesus Christ.
Did you know that all the great centers for learning were started by Christians? (Oxford, Cambridge, Princeton, Harvard)
Unfortunately they are no longer Christian and as such have slidden into decay as too the quality of people they turn out.
What evolutionary basis is their for the family?
I have never heard any good thoughts on this from atheists?
Why take the time to raise children and be faithful to your wife if you have limited time here on this blue planet and then you turn into atoms?
You are really beyond understanding science and knowledge aren't you. Early individuals families and small communities could not survive IF they did not have compassion and empathy for one another. Also the "family values" clan system that North American Aboriginals had regarding intermarriage etc etc...where were you educated?......all this type of information is readily available online....you are too lazy to re-educate yourself or to simply EDUCATE yourself about COMMON scientif knowledge from many many disciplines and thousands of scientists and evidenced FACTS. Do your own bloody research.
I knew a girl growing up who turned atheist from the hyprocisy she saw in the RC Church.
You are the first person out of about 30 who actually responded with the info. I requested about themselves?
63..went to bible college....raised RC �...married with 3 children all who are successful and living happy lives.....University degrees in Social work, Human Justice and Alcohol and Chemical Dependency Studies.....a"THEIST" ( i don't believe in 'theism") i READ THE BIBLE AND using rationale thought gave up teachings that had no evidence and actually found out much of the bible was added onto by scribes who THOUGHT they would add on because a story seemed incomplete....lots of evidence for this...tons actually...do some research. Here is ONE small link....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0zWbL8Uqfw#t=35 Please get back to us AFTER you see this with EVIDENCE that disputes these evidences
"judgement day" is a bad joke, and you are posting empty threats
pull the crucifix out of your backside, OV
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... http://www.GODisIMAGINARY.com ...
... and thank goodness because he emanates from the ...
... http://www.EVILbible.com ...
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cnn encourages atheists to post sik posts
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... http://www.GODisIMAGINARY.com ...
... and thank goodness because he emanates from the ...
... http://www.EVILbible.com ...
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toobad,
CNN encourages everyone to post.
Sorry to spoil your fantasy.
Yes, I do believe word for word in the story of Genesis. But I DO NOT believe in your interpretation of it, because your interpretation is false. There are two sources of information in the universe. That which cometh from God. And that which cometh from the devil. I got my info from God. Where'd you get yours from?… Just what I thought.
Robert… But to answer your questions:
1) The Earth is flat.
Answer: I could prove that it is. I could also prove that it isn't. The choice is yours.
2) The Earth was created before the Sun, and the rest of the 300 million suns in our Galaxy…
Answer: Yes, according to the book of Genesis, God created the earth first. The Sun and Moon were created later…
3) The Earth was created before the other 200 to 300 million galaxies.
Answer: Genesis only describes the creation of the earth. It says nothing of when the other galaxies were created…
4) That the combined scientific conclusions in may different sciences all over the world that the earth is about 13.8 billion years is wrong…
Answer: They are indeed wrong. They are grossly wrong. And was wrong from the start…
5) That Adam and Eve lived while there were still dinosaurs…
Answer: I contend that what you call dinosaurs still exist today. The reason you haven't seen them is because they are and never were "land-based" creatures (scientists got that part wrong), but are creatures of the deep. During the great flood of Noah, they came to the surface. But when the waters receded, some of them got trapped on dry land and died. That is why scientists are now finding their skeletons. Man has never been to the bottom of the deepest parts of the ocean and has no clue what is down there…
Evolution is a myth and never happened. It was God who created the heavens and the earth, just like the bible has stated...
spoken with in true semantics style...the fossil record speaks on its own merit. Dinosaurs in the sea means what? Only that they have escaped detection...so what...humans appeared on the earth AFTER the the main dinosaur period...I'm sure your description would satisfy thousands of hands on scientists who have real evidence. All you have is ?????/...lmao...you are an armchair pseudo non scientist.
Well, you can believe that all you want, but the evidence and reality disagree with you.
dillonb1950… Spoken like a true devil. I'm not trying to prove anything. Nor am I trying to help you to understand it. I'm just stating the facts. You can take it or leave it…
Maxwel's Demon… And exactly how much is Lucifer paying you guys? I'm just curious. Because only a devil would think of a name like that…
Opposing View,
If you had ANY logic at all, you'd know that atheists don't believe in the devil,either. Talk to your fellow believers about Lucifer.
Observer... Proverbs 1:7 – The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction...
Opposing View,
Claiming that someone who works with the Devil, but doesn't believe in God shows a total lack of "wisdom" on your part.
Please get a much better education.
Yes...we are all devils...everyone outside of your church. We were all getting along quite nicely until your religion colonized every POOR country it could get its hands on....and it still is. You people are morons.....that's a few steps down from demons.
Just so you know, the galaxies being formed were mentioned. The Bible says, (Genesis 1) "In the beginning, God created the HEAVENS (Heavens meaning galaxies,planets,stars.) and the Earth."
You better study your bible.....good and evil were both considered to be from god and after Samuel the concept changed...thats a fact...go do your own research and you will find this. The bible has been altered at every turn whenever their was a rewrite or a copy of a copy of a copy thousands of times over...no original text remains...only copies of copies etc etc....please se this video from a biblical scholar and see the whole video not only pieces of it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0zWbL8Uqfw#t=35
Dillonb1950… Somebody told you that lie and you believed it. You shouldn't believe everything you hear. The original unaltered scriptures still exist. There are plenty of false bibles in the world, but the original still exists. If you get your info from the devil (internet, YouTube, etc.) then that's all you'll get is lies and deceptions. To learn the truth, you must get it from God. To get it from God, you must go where God is operating. And God only operates in certain places...
the problem with your argument is that you cannot back it up with proof.
there are so many different interpretations of the bible that it's impossible to know if any are authoritative to the original texts. nevertheless, interpretations are full of mistakes and the bible just becomes one big, messy fable. and that doesn't even address the actual content – which is full of contradictory garbage.
But I can back it up with proof...from this leading biblical professor..well known well respected. Watch the whole video then we can debate. Please show me YOUR supporting sources but they must be up to date.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0zWbL8Uqfw#t=35
Cometh? Using 16th century English is exactly what Joseph Smith did in writing his divine book to add an air of legitimacy....you must be related.....I've heard Troll DNA is tough to completely breed out.
Personal insults are signs of a weak position in a debate.
If you believe word for word in the story of Genesis, you also have to believe that 1. The Earth is flat. 2. The Earth was created before the Sun, and the rest of the 300 millions suns in our Galaxy. 3. The Earth was created before the other 200 to 300 million galaxies. 4. That the combined scientific conclusions in many different sciences all over the world that the Earth is about 13.8 billion years is wrong. 5. That Adam and Eve lived while there were still dinosaurs.
These Creationists will sentence people to death on the basis of DNA technology, but deny the same technology when it is used to confirm evolution. These folks will believe in the technoology of the Hydrogen Bomb, but deny the same technology when it is used in the atomic clock or to use the half life of radioactive isotopes to date fossil specimens.
As you might expect, most of them live in the Rural South and are Fundamentalist Christian Republicans whose ancestors used the Bible to justify slavery.
Most of them are honest people who BELIEVE and FEEL, but they have never learned how to THINK.
"A literal belief in the creation story in Genesis also requires one to believe that 1. The Earth is flat."
I can't believe people are still perpetuating the flat earth myth. What's sad is that it's being perpetuated, not by Christians, but by atheists.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth
Who are the people who believe in Creationism?
A literal belief in the creation story in Genesis also requires one to believe that 1. The Earth is flat. 2. The Earth was created before the Sun, and the rest of the 300 millions suns in our Galaxy. 3. The Earth was created before the other 200 to 300 million galaxies. 4. That the combined scientific conclusions in many different sciences all over the world that the Earth is about 13.8 billion years is wrong. 5. That Adam and Eve lived while there were still dinosaurs.
These Creationists will sentence people to death on the basis of DNA technology, but deny the same technology when it is used to confirm evolution. These folks will believe in the technoology of the Hydrogen Bomb, but deny the same technology when it is used in the atomic clock or to use the half life of radioactive isotopes to date fossil specimens.
As you might expect, most of them live in the Rural South and are Fundamentalist Christian Republicans whose ancestors used the Bible to justify slavery.
Most of them are honest people who BELIEVE and FEEL, but they have never learned how to THINK.
"A literal belief in the creation story in Genesis also requires one to believe that 1. The Earth is flat."
I can't believe people are still perpetuating the flat earth myth. What's sad is that it's being perpetuated, not by Christians, but by atheists.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth
A literal belief in the creation story in Genesis also requires one to believe that 1. The Earth is flat. 2. The Earth was created before the Sun, and the rest of the 300 millions suns in our Galaxy. 3. The Earth was created before the other 200 to 300 million galaxies. 4. That the combined scientific conclusions in many different sciences all over the world that the Earth is about 13.8 billion years is wrong. 5. That Adam and Eve lived while there were still dinosaurs.
These Creationists will sentence people to death on the basis of DNA technology, but deny the same technology when it is used to confirm evolution. These folks will believe in the technoology of the Hydrogen Bomb, but deny the same technology when it is used in the atomic clock or to use the half life of radioactive isotopes to date fossil specimens.
As you might expect, most of them live in the Rural South and are Fundamentalist Christian Republicans whose ancestors used the Bible to justify slavery.
Most of them are honest people who BELIEVE and FEEL, but they have never learned how to THINK.
"A literal belief in the creation story in Genesis also requires one to believe that 1. The Earth is flat."
I can't believe people are still perpetuating the flat earth myth. What's sad is that it's still being perpetuated, not by Christians, but by atheists.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth
I can prove God doesn't exist. God is defined with contradictory properties, and thus the definition implodes upon itself.
Pondering impossibilities is where deep thoughts come from
If God does exist, then prove it. Give me real hard evidence.
I tried very hard for many years and came up with nothing. Absolutely Nothing. All I see is Nature with Quantum foam all around us.
If you really are intelligent (and I doubt that you are) then perhaps you should start with trying to prove he "doesn't" exist. If you can't prove that, then you must allow for the possibility that he may indeed exist.. Pure logic. If you can't do that, then you weren't searching for truth in the first place…
As for proof he does exist. Jesus Christ is all the proof you need. How simple-minded can you get...
Again....Give me absolute hard proof of god existence and I will follow you to the ends of the world for your cause.
That is the problem with you people, all we ask is for a simple proof in a direct way but your kind always find excuses to by-pass the real question by asking us the question. The question is simple and I expect a simple answer.
However, I truly believe in Nature, Science and Mathematics that tells a "real" story about us and the world around us. Thy provide proof (or even reject) to any testable hypothesis. You can apply numbers to anything in this world but how can you apply a number to God since there is no physical proof it exist (e.g. how high is god? How heavy is god? ...etc...). See what I mean? Science and Mathematics can explain everything here on this planet and the universe all around us with great precision and more is being discovered everyday using these methods. Science can help and cure people from aliments such as headaches, Heart decease and even cancer. Try applying only religion to these and see what you get. How many ultra conservatives religious people turn to science to cure their or their family aliments, you be surprised (those who use these religious technique already know the consequences but they continue to persist). Science can even take us to the moon and come back safely. Can you do that with god??? And don't even get me started with Darwinian evolution.
One day we will be the masters of the universe, but discovery through science and mathematics will take time since this is a very complex world. I can hardly see religion alone doing that. I can't even find any hard answers in the Bible or in any religious text to suggest our existence in this physical world and why it works. In science and mathematics we can.
can you prove santa clause doesn't exist? rudolph is all the proof you need.
Why do people have no clue what logic is? The logical default is nonexistence UNLESS evidence is found to suggest existence. Otherwise you open yourself up to believe anything that could ever exist. I can't prove invisible gnomes don't exist, that doesn't mean I must consider the possibility of their existence. That is not logic.
Hello there atheists! Is me again to remind you so that you don't forget, that atheism is stupidity in Full bloom in any and all Seasons. God willing I'll be back!
Really? Failing to believe in a 2000+ year old book of folklore written by goat herders is stupid? Your god hasn't been seen or heard of in those 2000+ years, if we are his chosen species you'd think he might make an appearance every couple hundred years or so.
Your ignorance of the subject is one more proof (like if we need it) of what I've been saying. Atheism is the ultimate stupidity!!
Stupidity is in the eyes of the beholder.
Salero21 is stupidity in Full bloom in any and all Seasons.
I think this time I'll agree with Sal!
Your lack of creativity is proof of what I said. DITTO!!