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October 16th, 2013
03:20 PM ET
What Oprah gets wrong about atheism
(CNN) - To some, Oprah Winfrey appears to have an almost godlike status. Her talents are well recognized, and her endorsement can turn almost any product into an overnight bestseller. This godlike perception is fitting, since in recent years Winfrey’s work has increasingly emphasized spirituality, including programs like her own "Super Soul Sunday." But what happens when an atheist enters the mix? A few days ago Winfrey interviewed long-distance swimmer Diana Nyad on Super Soul Sunday. Nyad identified herself as an atheist who experiences awe and wonder at the natural world and humanity. Nyad, 64, who swam from Cuba to Key West last month, said “I can stand at the beach’s edge with the most devout Christian, Jew, Buddhist, go on down the line, and weep with the beauty of this universe and be moved by all of humanity — all the billions of people who have lived before us, who have loved and hurt.” Winfrey responded, “Well I don’t call you an atheist then.” Winfrey went on, “I think if you believe in the awe and the wonder and the mystery then that is what God is… It’s not a bearded guy in the sky.” Nyad clarified that she doesn’t use the word God because it implies a “presence… a creator or an overseer.” Winfrey’s response may have been well intended, but it erased Nyad’s atheist identity and suggested something entirely untrue and, to many atheists like me, offensive: that atheists don’t experience awe and wonder. MORE ON CNN: Diana Nyad completes historic Cuba-to-Florida swim The exchange between Winfrey and Nyad reminds me of a conversation I once had with a Catholic scholar. The professor once asked me: “When I talk about God, I mean love and justice and reconciliation, not a man in the sky. You talk about love and justice and reconciliation. Why can’t you just call that God?” I replied: “Why must you call that God? Why not just call it what it is: love and justice and reconciliation?” Though we started off with this disagreement, we came to better understand one another’s points of view through patient, honest dialogue. Conversations like that are greatly needed today, as atheists are broadly misunderstood. MORE ON CNN: Behold, the six types of atheists When I visit college and university campuses around the United States, I frequently ask students what words are commonly associated with atheists. Their responses nearly always include words like “negative,” “selfish,” “nihilistic” and “closed-minded.” When I ask how many of them actually have a relationship with an atheist, few raise their hands. Relationships can be transformative. The Pew Research Center found that among the 14% of Americans who changed their mind from opposing same-sex marriage to supporting it in the last decade, the top reason given was having “friends, family, acquaintances who are gay/lesbian.” Knowing someone of a different identity can increase understanding. This has been true for me as a queer person and as an atheist. I have met people who initially think I can’t actually be an atheist when they learn that I experience awe and am committed to service and social justice. But when I explain that atheism is central to my worldview — that I am in awe of the natural world and that I believe it is up to human beings, instead of a divine force, to strive to address our problems — they often better understand my views, even if we don’t agree. While theists can learn by listening to atheists more, atheists themselves can foster greater understanding by not just emphasizing the “no” of atheism — our disagreement over the existence of any gods — but also the “yes” of atheism and secular humanism, which recognizes the amazing potential within human beings. Carl Sagan, the agnostic astronomer and author, would have agreed with Nyad’s claim that you can be an atheist, agnostic or nonreligious person and consider yourself “spiritual.” As Sagan wrote in "The Demon-Haunted World,": "When we recognize our place in an immensity of light‐years and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual.” Nyad told Winfrey that she feels a similar sense of awe: “I think you can be an atheist who doesn’t believe in an overarching being who created all of this and sees over it,” she said. “But there’s spirituality because we human beings, and we animals, and maybe even we plants, but certainly the ocean and the moon and the stars, we all live with something that is cherished and we feel the treasure of it.” MORE ON CNN: 'Atheist' isn’t a dirty word, congresswoman I experience that same awe when I see people of different beliefs coming together across lines of religious difference to recognize that we are all human — that we all love and hurt. Perhaps Winfrey, who could use her influence to shatter stereotypes about atheists rather than reinforce them, would have benefited from listening to Nyad just a bit more closely and from talking to more atheists about awe and wonder. I know many who would be up to the task. Chris Stedman is the assistant humanist chaplain at Harvard University, coordinator of humanist life for the Yale Humanist Community and author of Faitheist: How an Atheist Found Common Ground with the Religious. soundoff (4,964 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 Next »
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No Athiest's in Fox holes? Remember Pat Tillman. He played for the AZ Cardinals and gave up millions of dollars to fight and die for his country. He was an Athiest. Go ahead and call him a bunch of names and talk about his lack of morality.
Still love the video of his brother at his memorial going off on all the religious people that came there to look good by invoking their own beliefs rather than showing respect for the beliefs of the deceased!
Still love the video of his brother at his memorial going off on all the religious people giving their empty religious statements and speeches.
Religious fanatics... before engaging in a tirade aginst those not sharing your beliefs... just try it ... really... wlak around just one day... even one hour... without relying on the crutch you have come to worship. Make your daily decisions adn pursue your values after relying on no one for guidance but yourself... Try it... and then come back and tell me what you have learend about yourself. It's in the exercise of atheism that teh value is found.
Here is the irony of the atheist: In order to know their is no God one must have absolute knowledge that no god exists either in this universe or outside this universe. Absolute knowledge is omniscience which is a quality ascribed to a god. Therefore, in order to know there is no god the atheist must assert they are a god. Which of course defeats their assertion that there is no god. At best an atheist can only be agnostic. Actually the atheist is just a paradigm for our time; people who descend into delusion so they don't have to confront their own shortcomings.
Ummm no.
All that is required to be an atheist is to disbelieve.
You can't prove the non-existence of anything – which as you point out requires omniscience.
You've got that proof that there is no Santa Claus / tooth fairy / flying pink unicorns / etc lined up for me I hope.
Disbelief is not unbelief. So not a lack of belief, unbelief, will not makr you an Atheist. You will have to actively decide not to believe certain things but believe others. Which is disbelief or Atheism. So it is not a simple lack but an active decision against belief which is why it is considered a religion.
More meaningless semantics.
People are believers (in God or a higher power) or non-believers.
I am a non-believer.
Had I said "not believe in God" instead of "disbelieve" would you feel better?
Being an atheist only means that you do not believe in a god. I don't believe in lots of things which I cannot prove without a doubt are unreal, and so can you. You don't believe in Thor or the Easter Bunny or Aphrodite, but cannot prove without a doubt that they are unreal.
An atheist only believes in one less god than a christian does.
Epistemology... the study of how one knows what one (claims to) know(s). Read up on it and then please refrain from making such absurd circular arguments.
What a fundamental misunderstanding.
1st thing: you can't prove a negative
2nd thing: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence...the onus is on you to prove god's existence. (Good luck!)
3rd thing: Atheists/Agnostis/Naturalists will believe in what is proven to be true no matter how incredible. We believe that we live in a natural world governed by the forces of nature. We do not believe that we live in a supernatural world governed by supernatural forces (gods, ghosts, demons, angels) because there is no evidence (observations, facts, etc.) that we do. This is entirely based on reason and not "faith" in that for which there is no evidence. Give us evidence/proof/facts and we will believe.
A good example is "entanglement" in quantum physics. It is like magic, but it is real. There is experimental evidence for it, so I believe that it is real.
Wrong. You can't say that an Atheist requires absolute truth to there not being a god anymore then you can say a religious person isn't religious because of the same thing, hey have no more absolute truth then I do. On the other hand when there IS proof that religion is a myth they tend to believe it and not ignore it. I'd also argue the exact opposite in that we are people who ascend out of a delusion from the dark ages so they don't have to confront their own shortcomings and fear of the unknown.
LMAO! Oh man, the sheer amount of effort that religious people put into trying to spin their entire belief system back onto others to save face is staggering!
Nyad told Winfrey that she feels a similar sense of awe:
“I think you can be an atheist who doesn’t believe in an overarching being who created all of this and sees over it,” she said. “But there’s spirituality because we human beings, and we animals, and maybe even we plants, but certainly the ocean and the moon and the stars, we all live with something that is cherished and we feel the treasure of it.”
Probably that is what confused Oprah, can't blame Oprah for not getting atheism right. After all, spirituality is associated with religious and atheists by no stretch of imagination come across as religious.
Atheists are irreligious.
80% of the regular posters that are atheist on this site act and behave as if atheism is a religion.
Your observation is right, however, most characters posting here are merely serving as spokespeople for atheists. There are very few atheists, "reality" is one of them. The rest are "other" theists and are confused about their own spirituality.
One of the most childish and troll-worthy comments ever made about Atheists – just another one of the many methods and tactics that religious people use to corral everybody into the same box that they've trapped themselves in.
The second-most childish is "no Atheists in foxholes" – based on the same principle; religious people can't bring themselves to allow others to believe what they will, so they have to make sure those Atheists believe that death will bring the same thing for us as it will for them.
Projection at its finest!
The difference between an atheist and one who believes in God comes down to one word: surrender.
Just accept the premise that this person, along with many others, don't believe in "GOD" – they simply believe that science will answer the questions of many – the beauty, awesome and complete is simply that....love, peace, reconciliation, and NOT intelligent design.
Why do we have to label people or torment them because they don't believe in GOD? So Mote It Be!
So who or what do you turn to when it's not all "awe and wonder?"
We turn to real things. Friends, family, co-workers, and other real things that are wonderful and awe-inspiring. Religion never had a monopoly on awe or wonder. It's hard to believe that some folks can't figure out the beauty of reality.
What a stupid culture war.
Have to agree with you there.
Religion – dividing people since the bronze age, and maybe even before that.
It's just because we don't have fields to plow, or bread to make, or a house to build, while we birth and raise children without electronic devices. We simply have WAY too much thinking time on our hands.
What I resent is that atheists have to be paraded in the media and categorized as some sort of weird curiosity. Since when is NOT believing in something that has absolutely no physical evidence of existing considered abnormal? We don't have a label for people who DON'T believe in the loch ness monster or bigfoot. Why do atheists have to go on Oprah to explain themselves to people? I would say that the people who believe in an invisible man who needs ten percent of their paycheck and hears their thoughts through psychic wavelengths have a lot more explaining to do.
I believe a majority of at least those who identify as some form of Christian only do so out of obligation, for the sake of appearances.
This way, even though internally they know they don't actually believe they can avoid the stigma of being a non-believer in a society full of delusional fanatics who would turn on them in a heartbeat were they to profess their true feelings.
So these Christians are just atheists that lie to keep up with the status quo?
More along the lines of closet agnostics who fear the consequences from their own religious community were they to openly acknowledge their lack of belief in that particular cult.
Nothing to do with keeping up the status quo, they are literally in fear of what will happen to them and their lives if they were to announce they didn't believe.
I would blame Penn Jillette, Christopher Hitchens, Ricky Gervais for the weirdo vibe in the media.
Jon,
I don't believe in the myth of man-made global warming because the science behind it is bunk – I'm sure you think I'm weird.
The actual 'science' behind evolution is even more laughable and I don't believe that either – now you must think I'm really weird.
No Goarmy90, we think you're stupid.
The vast (95%+ worldwide) majority of climatologists believe and have shown proof that global warming has a human component to it. But because Rush tells you so, you don't believe it.
Just curious. Where did you get that stat, "95% + worldwide of climatologists believe and have shown proof that global warming has a human component to it"? While it is well known that global warming is occurring, very few scientists actually agree on its cause.
Those commie tree huggers over at NASA now put the number at 97%.
http://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus
Please get a clue.
"Very few scientists agree on the cause"? That's not the case at all. Do you ever read science journals, or even Discovery Magazine, or Scientific American??
You can fix ignorance with a good education, but you can't fix stupid.
Global warming and evolution are fact not myth. The Science behind them comes from dozens of different fields of science, and from research conducted across the entire planet.
You laugh at evolution, and the whole world laughs at you.......
Believe what you want to believe. Love it, cherish it, if it gives you hope great. As long as you do not attack anyone because they believe something different or hurt people because of it do and believe what you want. One of the things that makes humans great is that we are not all the same. We like to immediately attack people for their beliefs because difference is scary, people have throughout history and that is what needs to stop.
I am a Jew, and I do not hate christians, muslims, athiests, or anyone really I have had friends of all orientations. I hate those who hate me because of what I believe and how it may differ from what they do (often they are too close minded to find out) and those that hurt others for no reason.
To all atheists – if you are so ignorant to think we just "formed", and there is no God, that is ridiculous. As they say – there are no atheists in fox holes. How stupid can you possibly get. And, if you write back that I'm stupid...sorry. I have a doctorate degree. Read Revelation in the bible. Everything that is happening, that has happened, is in there. I can't think of any hope an atheist has ever given in any situation. Go be alone in the universe – because you are.
To all Christian cultists – if you actually believe it makes more sense that woman was created from the rib of a man and that we are all descendants of Adam and Eve, thus we are all related, I won't bother asking how stupid you are....I can see it for myself.
If you had a doctorate in any sort of research field you'd know that "there are no atheists in fox holes" is a claim that would need to be supported by, at a very minimum, a properly conducted survey of people who have been in foxholes. Since many of us know one or more atheists who have served in combat unchanged, your claim just sounds idiotic, whatever brains you think you have.
I must admit I expected a great deal more persuasion from someone with a PhD. But the, a PhD in what? Let the strength of your argument do your talking – but I have seen no argument, and therefore can give her claims no credibility.
“They say there's no atheists in foxholes, but there's probably no atheists in rockets,” Col. Mike Good
There are many idiots out there with doctorates. You seem to be one.
So much anger and hatred. Tell them not to call you stupid as you call them stupid.
You think the world was created a couple thousand years ago. I know for a fact that it was created 6+ billion years ago. You fill up your car with dinosaurs every week that were here many millions of years before your god supposedly created the Earth.
carol hamlton,
I'm curious how someone with a doctorate can believe and support a book that claims unicorns, talking non-humans, and dragons existed as well as that people can turn into salt. Please explain.
Is your degree in science? Please tell us "no".
knew a Doctor of Divinity, he got lung cancer, ate his shotgun, probably missed out on the mythical heaven but didn't really give a sh!t at the time.
Carol, read this and learn, so that you stop insulting the many atheists who serve or have served in our military:
http://militaryatheists.org/atheists-in-foxholes/
After you have read that, please retract your statement. You would retract it if you had a millionth of the courage of these atheists. Let's see now if you have such courage, or not. We are waiting for your retraction.
Where in hell do they give a PhD for idiocy? Saying you got one does not make it so. More info please.
If you have a doctorate degree then you really should ask for your money back. Your post starts off by calling an entire group of people "ignorant", call people stupid, and then try and say that everything negative currently happening in the world was is all in Revelations? You can't "think of any hope they have"?
I suppose it's the same for Muslims and Buddhists huh? They not following the "right" religion?
Doctorate.....give me a break.
It's probably some doctorate in religion from an unaccredited for-profit school with no entrance requirements run out of a basement somewhere.
PhD from Liberty U.... what is that worth?
I'm guessing your doctorate is in Divinity.
Liberty U, Oral Roberts U, or somewhere like Wheaton or Berry College?
You made some claims, but didn't explain them. I'm sure that at least one college professor expected you to explain your work. It's the same when you criticize millions of people. Your complaint would look more logical if you'd simply explain it. Just throwing out claims doesn't suffice.
You have to believe me – I'm a doctor! - Errm, nope?
For someone who gives so much credence to a book written by John of Patmos (revelations), you should also look into some of Nostradamus predictions – afterall, he was just a dude who wrote down some stuff too. Its very easy to make something fit very generalized statements after the fact.
You sound like you are dumber than a bag of hammers, must have been an evangelistic insti.tute of higher learning (oxymoron) that would give you a PhD for scrubbing the floors, unless you had the cash to pay for it.
Carol, there are atheists and muslims and christians and Catholics in foxholes, and they all die at the same rate in war, whether you pray for God's help or not. What a silly saying that Christians use as a "proof" statement that God exists. It's like saying God exists because the sky is blue and the grass is green, God created that beauty. Please. I don't mind if you want to believe why you are here as long as you don't mind why I believe I am here. Let's all just make the best of it while we are all here.
You can't think of any hope an atheist has given us in any situation? Do you know Albert Einstein was a pacifist and an atheist? Do you know Bertrand Russell the philosopher was also a pacifist and atheist. He also won the nobel prize. I think it would help to read a little more.
Technically speaking, Einstein was a Deist. His writings indicate that he did believe in a higher power, just not an anthropomorphic God. Look up Spinoza's God.
I don't think Spinoza was a deist as that is usually concieved. Spinoza's god was neither a creator of the universe nor his own thought acts (though sentient/conscious and feeling). It is something closer to pantheism, panspychism or panexperientialism...and probably closer to atheism than deism and was seen at the time as something quite different.
Doubt you have a doctorate....or if you do, it was emailed to you.
Carol, please check out the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers. There are indeed atheists in foxholes.
So atheists, what do you do, in your community, your neighborhoods, your city, your country or your world, to make a positive difference?
See, you're going on about how religion does NOTHING good (and I'm in partial agreement there) but as a new subculture, could you, as atheists, tell us what you plan to do to make the world better? Or what are you doing now? Or what have you been doing that makes you ethically and morally superior to non-atheists?
Just curious. Not being aggressive; I just want to know if you have anything to back your posts.
Morally superior? You are obviously angry at Atheists. They just don't believe in God. I have never ever heard of an Atheist claiming to be morally superior to anybody. They just refuse to devote their life to something that doesn't exist. Some are nice, some are mean, some are giving, some are takers. You find them all offensive because they think you belong to a cult and that angers you.
I personally work as an education facilitator for severely disabled, autistic and behavior issue elementary kids for about 12 dollars an hour, with a Masters degree in education. I also donate time and money to local foodbanks and other initiatives at our school. And you?
Google, the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation, Doctors Without Borders, Earthward Inc., HIVOS, etc. and they do not hand out bibles as part of the aid. Catholic missions especially have been bend to our faith and version of god and we will help, not so much if you don't toe the line.
If people ask for Bibles would they hand them out?
No. The mission is to help not delude, but they would be welcome whatever religious belief they had, so they would not hand out a Bible, Koran, Vedas, Talmud......
The people are asking for Bibles. Not your opinion about it. You hand them out if you can. There are religious people serving for those groups, too.
Best O
So you think that a starving or sick person would come for help and ask for a religious tome/any religion? Sounds like the Mama Theresa who would rather watch the patients suffer for the glory of god/jesus than offer true help, so sad.
Well, BestO, do you really think that a non religious charity should lug along every religious tome that people might request, I have a feeling that you just want them to hand out the bible, the others not so much.
Wow. Well, I volunteer several days a week with dementia patients, switched careers to a lower paying field to help people and help care for my aging neighbors as well as my own aging father. I also volunteer also on my local park maintenance team and during most political campaigns.
Just...wow. These folks are the reason the angry atheists exist. Scary. And yes, I know not all theists believe these things. The fringe are just so damn scary.
Not that hard to be ethically superior to people who think their beliefs give them carte blanche to restrict or deny rights to others who simply believe differently than them.
Religion and morality are NOT synonymous.
It is true, there are no atheists in me.
Thank you Sara and Jon for your kind, well meant responses. You've improved my view of atheism by reading of your kindness.
I'm agnostic, certainly not religious, but I have a limited understanding of atheism, short of people on these belief boards and what we see in the media.
You two have proven that it's the person, not the belief or "way" that matter.
Did you stop being an atheist? You once said this to me
"You have deified your mind. If you received "help" from god in the past, the you helped yourself. This means you're probably a relatively intelligent creature capable of reasoned thought. It saddens me though to see that you have externalized your power in order to justify its existence somehow. "
Doesn't sound agnostic to me. My black as$
I don't even know WHO you are, and whatever it is that you're quoting me as saying to you...well, first of all, if that was recently, then someone else took my screen name. If that was from the past...then you have some serious resentment issues that you need to revisit.
Take your anger elsewhere. Anger is hardly productive in this crazy world. You're only adding to the insanity.
Atheists help the community as much as religious people, we just don't often toot our own horn about it. If you need a specific example, here: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Austin-Atheists-Helping-the-Homeless/260499667409132
It doesn't matter if religion is "good" or "bad"... the stories in the Bible etc. are just not credible. The existence of god(s) as described is just not plausible.
Well... I haven't molested anyone for starters...
How about Doctors Without Borders?
100% secular. No donations are spent building chapels for the sick and dying.
If Christian, Muslim and Jewish doctors serve, does that make it 100% secular? A lot of religious groups support and encourage that program.
Yep, b/c mystical beliefs don't count when you work for Doctors Without Borders. The organization is not motivated by mysticism.
But how typical of religious people to say, "there are religious people involved, therefore we take ownership"
BestO
You are making a fool of yourself with your comments, just stop.
I help with charities that support homeless children in our area. My kids help with it as well – i want them to understand that just because we have means, not everyone is in our position. Kids that are bounced around from house to house need to have some degree of stability. What totally disgusts me is that people who say they're with god, do and say some of the meanest, crassest things i've ever seen. And save the line..."well they're just not christian".....I see it day in and day out.
If you have to be motivated by mythology to be socially conscious then you have larger problems.
Religious people seem to be angered by Athiests. They seem them as mean selfish closed minded people. They can't possibly be nice open minded giving people. They need them to be mean selfish closed minded people to feel good about hating them.
I see religions as man made cults designed to control people. I refuse to be a pawn in some 2000 year old charade.
Oprah is a moron. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in any form of deity or god. I am an atheist. I myself do have a wonder about the universe, a scientific wonder. Do not have a deity, and I am an ass to anyone who does.
Neil deGrasse Tyson, astrophysicist, explains how God disappeared as an explanation for things humans did not understand about the universe, as the "perimeter of ignorance" receded. The greatest minds dared increasingly brave to question the world around them, but sometimes cowardly copped out along the way when they faced problems -similar to the modern Intelligent Design movement that advocates a "god of the gaps"- until someone else took over and furthered scientific progress.
(YouTube published 3/2/13)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxiLnC7ikw8
Hey you religious freaks...
Recognize these words that you're so proud of writing down in your replies:
~~ Denial, reject, refuse and combine them with 'Allah, Vishnu, Thor... etc"
Boo Hoo I'm an athiest, no one understnds me, blah blah blah. Stupid article.
The comment you are making right now is why many of them feel that way. People of faith all disagree with each other, but when it comes to atheists, they unite in bigotry.
I understand that you need to die.
Well what could be more clever than that...?
Let me help. I am an "atheist", but I don't care for the term. I am a Naturalist. I believe that we live in a natural world governed by the forces of nature. I do not believe that we live in a supernatural world governed by supernatural forces (gods, ghosts, demons, angels) because there is no evidence (observations, facts, etc.) that we do.
Religious people find this rational approach to be "closed minded", unreasonable, etc...even when it is, in fact, entirely based on reason and not "faith" in that for which there is no evidence.
Ergo, if you can prove that something incredible and, prima facie, "unbelievable" is real, then we "atheists" will believe. A good example is "entanglement" in quantum physics. It is like magic, but it is real. There is experimental evidence for it, so I believe that it is real.
I hope that was helpful.
Oprah obviously still thinks atheist is a bad word – she thought she was complimenting an atheist by saying she didn't consider them an atheist.
Absolutely agree. 'Nuf said.
True. She thought it was a compliment, when what she was really doing was belittling her beliefs.
Yeah, that's pretty much it. She essentially said, "Oh, you shouldn't refer to yourself with a nasty word like 'atheist' if you believe such nice things! Why don't we just call anything good god so you don't need that horrid word?"
I remember seeing Oprah on her show many many years ago, and she said that she does not believe that Jesus ever existed. If she believes in God like what we're hearing now, then she is neither a Christian or a Catholic. Maybe a Jew, Hindu or Buddhist etc
She credits Jesus with her show's success:
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/25/oprah-says-god-behind-success-of-show/
Are you sure you remember correctly? If so, she must have changed her mind. I believe she thinks most religions are paths to truth and morality or something of that nature.
She usually makes an effort to be inclusive of all religions.
I think this case she said something without thinking based on pre-existing bias about the label "atheist" and demonstrated honesty (at least in terms of how she views the term) more than many of the things she says to be inclusive.
Very astute observation.
There's a reason people associate negative attributes with atheists. It's because most interactions that reveal this label inevitably end in an attack on people's cherished beliefs and are often accompanied by narcissism and an air of superiority. Atheists tend to tear down and lash out, despite their claim to reason and logic they're often petulant and obnoxious. This is not true of all atheists, but is increasingly so. How else do you expect people to act when you're a harbinger of despair and condescend to anyone that isn't part of your clique?
And this is from your vast collection of atheist friends?
Or from you judging based on internet forums? Where I can point to far worse behavior by Christian posters – and yet no one judges all christians by their posts. The extremes are on the forums, and when you don't know an atheist in person – unlike Christians – it's so easy to just create a stereotype from a few posters. Do you really do the same when Christians post saying that all atheists are evil, satanic, worthless, unAmerican, should leave the country, post hatred of gays, women, anyone who doesn't agree with them?
So much easier to overlook the crap that is from people who don't have a problem with you.
I do have quite a few atheists friends and while they've tempered these qualities they're still apt to pop up. And the existence of a negative trait in another group does not excuse it in another one. It's just a convenient excuse people use to be a petulant jerk. This article is about atheists and people's negative perception of them. Scapegoating isn't where I tend to start conversations. If you want people to view your atheism in a positive light, then you have to exhibit positive characteristics.
I find it virtually impossible to explain to religious people why I find them childish to believe what they do without coming across as sounding negative. Simply disagreeing with a religious person about their beliefs, though, is enough to set them off about how lost we are and how we need to be saved.....how else am I supposed to respond to that, with agreement?
Understand something – religion has been around and held up as a wholly benevolent construct for centuries, all the while bullying anybody and everybody that didn't fall in line.
Now that religious people are finally being put in their place because they can no longer force people to believe what they want them to through threats of physical pain and/or imprisonment, they want to claim they are being demonized.
Now that's petulant.
Your problem is obviously that you go into your rationale with the intent to make people feel like their beliefs are childish and they are inferior to you and your so-obvious rational adult mentality. You can explain why you don't believe without making the other party feel like you're looking down on them, or you can treat them like children (which gets back to my original premise).
Christians have a long history of burning atheists at the stake. So lets not act like atheists started the negativity.
I'm sorry...how exactly are atheists "harbingers of despair"? Isn't it the Christians saying the 4+ billion people that don't believe in their god are going to burn in a lake of fire for all eternity. And I'm sorry, if you feel that atheists are condescending, narcissistic, etc. that has more to do with you own prejudices. How exactly do you think your post looked to the atheists that just read it?
Of course they won't like it. No one likes being called out on their issues. And yes, "harbingers of despair." Admittedly, theists have their own brand of this, but it isn't universal. Atheists take people's hope, irrational though it may be, and revel in snuffing it out. People hope that beyond this life there is something else, something better, including a chance to reunite with loved ones lost, but atheists seem to enjoy trying to convince people that death is the end. And perhaps that is the likeliest of all scenarios given the evidence, but is your intellectual victory worth the pain it inflicts? You often say you hate when Christians tell you you're going to burn in Hell, but you just as flippantly and hypocritically tell them their hopes for the afterlife are childish fantasies. Again, even if they are, what are you accomplishing? Inflicting a crushing despair on your fellow humans.
Wrong yet again – I don't take anybody's hope....I simply try to get them to understand logic and reason to the point they realize what they have placed their hope in is a fantasy, a crutch, a coping mechanism....nothing more.
The problem with that is, when you've been relying on a crutch for so long and you're not looking for alternatives, having someone yank it from under your arm will probably just result in you turfing it. Maybe they'll learn to walk without it or maybe they'll lie there yearning for their crutch. I completely respect atheists who found themselves questioning their beliefs or tradition and came to their own conclusion. But those who go around looking to cure the lame by kicking their crutches out from under them and then leaving them to rehabilitate themselves, not so desirable.
Sometimes a kind word works best, but sometimes a slap to the face is the only response to hysteria.
well said.
You do realize that a lot of that comes from constantly dealing with those who proselytize. To me, if you don't want to talk about it, don't bring up god. Then you also look around and see how belief constantly controls the thought processes of those around them. This directly affects the atheist who often sees bad policy decisions and laws being made based on belief. As an atheist, I can tell you that the vast majority of the time I talk to someone about it, they insult and pigeon hole me in very demeaning ways without even realizing it. Most of the time I just let it go, but it is troubling.
That's what I really wish religious people would really start to try to understand better – that they don't even realize or recognize their own self-righteousness because they genuinely don't think they are being that way.
It's one of the nifty tricks of indoctrination – teach people that by being bad to others who are deemed unworthy makes them look good in the eyes of their god.
It's pretty hard to spare the feelings of someone who believes in mysticism and magic when you tell them that what they believe in is mystical and magical, and has no basis in fact/observation/evidence.
What I think you, and most mystics, feel is that we, the naturalists (ie/ those who believe that we live in a natural world governed by the forces of nature VS. a supernatural world governed by supernatural forces), should just be quiet b/c you disagree with our rational world-view.
I don't disagree with your worldview, but it's one devoid of any positive contribution. Most people can't deal with reality without a hope in something more or greater. I'm not a fan of religious fanatics, but a belief in magic or mysticism or gods may be what some people need to cope with what is generally not a fair or positive world.
It is usually religious people who most trash the world that God supposedly created for them. It's likely that atheists more enjoy the world than believers. Believers might learn something from them.
I'll agree with your assertion one group can learn from another (it goes both ways, in my opinion). The rest, I think, is just your opinion. Although if you have a study that backs your assertion believers treat the world worse, I would be happy to peruse it.
"devoid of any positive contribution" ??
Dealing with reality instead of blinding of oneself with fairy tales is pretty positive. For example, take death. When my beloved grandparents died, I didn't delude myself with a fantasy that they were in "heaven". I faced reality and allowed myself to grieve the loss. But you are right, some people seem to want the denial or delusion. OK, but don't criticize me for not getting on board with the fiction.
And BTW, you can't take the good of mysticism without the bad. That's called cherry-picking. For example, there's "the love of Jesus" and there's also scaring children with stories of hell-fire should they not keep the faith.
Why Anti?
"I don't disagree with your worldview, but it's one devoid of any positive contribution."
Why would you even fantasize that atheists don't contribute to the world thru science, math, entertainment, etc.? Where is your appreciation for all the atheists who are (or have been) soldiers, docors, firemen, policemen, etc?
That is exactly right. If you don't want to talk about it, don't bring it up. When someone gets affirmation 99% of the time, they tend to over react when they are told they are wrong. It isn't mean, its just a fact. I get told I am wrong all the time by religious people so its really no big deal to me. I have thick skin.
Observer, there is a difference between your atheist worldview not contributing and you, as a person, not contributing. Being an atheist doesn't make you a bad person, it's just that it doesn't really do anything more than provide you a label.
First of all, I am an agnostic, not atheist.
Atheism does contribute the belief in appreciating the world we have, rather than put it down and say things will be better after we die. It also could be argued that atheists have more time for (hopefully productive) work and leisure.
"How else do you expect people to act when you're a harbinger of despair and condescend to anyone that isn't part of your clique?"
LMAO!
So really you actually DO understand why we Atheists react on occasion the way we do!?
You probably don't though, do you? You probably don't even realize the hypocrisy inherent in your rant, do you?
In a way, Oprah is illustrating the childish nature of "belief". Just because something happens that you find inexplicable, does not mean you have to give it an origin that is fanciful and magic. I appreciate atheist because they have no problem living in the now. They see a beautiful sunset and simply say "wow that is beautiful". They eat it up, enjoy it and walk away. A religious/spiritual person adds baggage by saying the beauty has a source that must have a name. I'm not an atheist, but I'm far from a church going religious drone who needs a "good book" to instruct me how to behave correctly.
Well said, thanks.