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October 16th, 2013
03:20 PM ET
What Oprah gets wrong about atheism
(CNN) - To some, Oprah Winfrey appears to have an almost godlike status. Her talents are well recognized, and her endorsement can turn almost any product into an overnight bestseller. This godlike perception is fitting, since in recent years Winfrey’s work has increasingly emphasized spirituality, including programs like her own "Super Soul Sunday." But what happens when an atheist enters the mix? A few days ago Winfrey interviewed long-distance swimmer Diana Nyad on Super Soul Sunday. Nyad identified herself as an atheist who experiences awe and wonder at the natural world and humanity. Nyad, 64, who swam from Cuba to Key West last month, said “I can stand at the beach’s edge with the most devout Christian, Jew, Buddhist, go on down the line, and weep with the beauty of this universe and be moved by all of humanity — all the billions of people who have lived before us, who have loved and hurt.” Winfrey responded, “Well I don’t call you an atheist then.” Winfrey went on, “I think if you believe in the awe and the wonder and the mystery then that is what God is… It’s not a bearded guy in the sky.” Nyad clarified that she doesn’t use the word God because it implies a “presence… a creator or an overseer.” Winfrey’s response may have been well intended, but it erased Nyad’s atheist identity and suggested something entirely untrue and, to many atheists like me, offensive: that atheists don’t experience awe and wonder. MORE ON CNN: Diana Nyad completes historic Cuba-to-Florida swim The exchange between Winfrey and Nyad reminds me of a conversation I once had with a Catholic scholar. The professor once asked me: “When I talk about God, I mean love and justice and reconciliation, not a man in the sky. You talk about love and justice and reconciliation. Why can’t you just call that God?” I replied: “Why must you call that God? Why not just call it what it is: love and justice and reconciliation?” Though we started off with this disagreement, we came to better understand one another’s points of view through patient, honest dialogue. Conversations like that are greatly needed today, as atheists are broadly misunderstood. MORE ON CNN: Behold, the six types of atheists When I visit college and university campuses around the United States, I frequently ask students what words are commonly associated with atheists. Their responses nearly always include words like “negative,” “selfish,” “nihilistic” and “closed-minded.” When I ask how many of them actually have a relationship with an atheist, few raise their hands. Relationships can be transformative. The Pew Research Center found that among the 14% of Americans who changed their mind from opposing same-sex marriage to supporting it in the last decade, the top reason given was having “friends, family, acquaintances who are gay/lesbian.” Knowing someone of a different identity can increase understanding. This has been true for me as a queer person and as an atheist. I have met people who initially think I can’t actually be an atheist when they learn that I experience awe and am committed to service and social justice. But when I explain that atheism is central to my worldview — that I am in awe of the natural world and that I believe it is up to human beings, instead of a divine force, to strive to address our problems — they often better understand my views, even if we don’t agree. While theists can learn by listening to atheists more, atheists themselves can foster greater understanding by not just emphasizing the “no” of atheism — our disagreement over the existence of any gods — but also the “yes” of atheism and secular humanism, which recognizes the amazing potential within human beings. Carl Sagan, the agnostic astronomer and author, would have agreed with Nyad’s claim that you can be an atheist, agnostic or nonreligious person and consider yourself “spiritual.” As Sagan wrote in "The Demon-Haunted World,": "When we recognize our place in an immensity of light‐years and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual.” Nyad told Winfrey that she feels a similar sense of awe: “I think you can be an atheist who doesn’t believe in an overarching being who created all of this and sees over it,” she said. “But there’s spirituality because we human beings, and we animals, and maybe even we plants, but certainly the ocean and the moon and the stars, we all live with something that is cherished and we feel the treasure of it.” MORE ON CNN: 'Atheist' isn’t a dirty word, congresswoman I experience that same awe when I see people of different beliefs coming together across lines of religious difference to recognize that we are all human — that we all love and hurt. Perhaps Winfrey, who could use her influence to shatter stereotypes about atheists rather than reinforce them, would have benefited from listening to Nyad just a bit more closely and from talking to more atheists about awe and wonder. I know many who would be up to the task. Chris Stedman is the assistant humanist chaplain at Harvard University, coordinator of humanist life for the Yale Humanist Community and author of Faitheist: How an Atheist Found Common Ground with the Religious. soundoff (4,964 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 Next »
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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The more I study science, the more I believe in God.
Just as long as you don't think you're studying science by reading the bible, as does Topher.
sounds like you're missing a lot in the reading...
I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon. I want to know his thoughts; the rest are details.
Can't figure out them big words. huh?
Everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe–a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble.
Very few real scientists would say what you say. Spirit? What is that?
Where are you getting your data?
Accoding to the Pew data, 33% of scientists believe in god, compared to 83% of the general population.
http://www.pewforum.org/2009/11/05/scientists-and-belief/
The 1998 National Academy of Sciences survey (a more select group) found belief at only 7%.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2111174/Intelligent-people-less-likely-to-believe-in-God.html
Could you post any data you have to the contrary?
@Sara He/she has no data; just a tired rehash of the "no true Sctosman" fallacy and a gross misunderstanding of the scientific method.
silly. of course there isn't evidence. holy cow! y keep asking delusional mental cases for the same stupid stuff? 0. nada. zip. zilch. could it be any clearer?
reborners, everyone of them, is absolutely clueless, brainwashed, has a book do all their thinking, reparded, is an imbecile, indoctrinated, duped by his parents, abused by priests, hates almost everyone, is a hypocrite, unthinking, addicted to religion, closed-minded, untrustworthy, greedy, two-faced, cheap, shallow, biased, republican, racist, uneducated, materialistic, boring, bland, judgmental, w/o love and knowledge of the bible, child abusing abortionists and genocidal cowboys and pro-slavery
and u want them 2 present u evidence their gods exists? what planet r u from?
Great scene from the movie "Contact" on the subject....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcqaHxI5-P8
bad logic on his part.
prove you love your dad. his argument is that you can't prove 'love', but you believe in 'love'. so is love real? he wants the same 'logic' applied to 'god'.
except they can prove love much more than they can prove god.
the first glaring point would be that she can prove the object of her love existed - her father.
and she can be hooked up in a lab. they can see parts of her brain light up when she thinks of her father.
it can be proven that she is feeling an emotion we call 'love'.
but another point is that 'love' is subjective - so is god subjective? just depends on the person as to whether he exists or not?
love is human emotion. love exists for some people, not for others – like happiness. so does god exist for some and not others?
the list goes on... but the comparison of is love real/is god real is a bad one.
Yeah, if Sagan had lived thru the final editing, I doubt he would have allowed such a nauseating, shallow pile of cr.ap to have made the final cut.
One would refuse to believe that an iphone just happened or there is no creator behind this simple device. Yet you walk around with a brain which is more sophisticated than a 20 billion dollar super computer and you like to think that it come out of nowhere.
And yet, you will turn around and claim your god "came from nothing" right? A much greater claim. This is the fundamental difficulty in calling on a god to explain complexity. All you do is defer the issue one unnecessary step.
I am not claiming anything, its you trying to claim something you have no knowledge of. All I asked was a simple question.
okay, i'll bite - what are your beliefs on the matter?
sheesh...
Oh bullsh.it. We know a great deal. We can trace the evolution of humans back to about 3 billion years ago and the origins of the Universe to about 13.72 billion years ago. Your sky fairy has no place in the modern world.
Oh yes, you are
Khalid do you believe in an alien being that looks after you...? Allah or God or perhaps Thor? we are asking you where did he she or it come from? was it also from nothing ? . The question you asked,,, where life started and how, science has not yet discovered. however you appear to be mixing evolution with abiogenesis..
My believe is that the one who created all this is the ONLY one who is worthy of all our attention and devotion and the purpose of us here is ONLY to KNOW him. And the only was to know him is to know his creation and serve his creation.
who created your creator? your creator is vastly more complex than a human brain - so who created your creator? please apply your same 'logic'.
the purpose of us here is ONLY to KNOW him.
---
How do you expect to "know" something that can't be known? If you're religious, the answer is to make up a set of standards that you can then "know".
Khalid you still have not answered the question of how your favorite being came into existence.. this is question that most likely is to dangerous for you to ask i would posit.
no claiming about it. god is and god is eternal.
u claim god doesn't exist and u r right. ur god ain't god. she may be nice and cool, but she ain't god.
call ur god snake
Its like you ask an ant where we come from. Or expect a mac computer to run a windows file. Just because you cannot process this information (because you are not designed to) does not mean that you throw away your own functions and duties.
@Colin,
1. Whatever BEGINS to exist has a cause.
2. The universe began to exist.
3. The universe has a cause.
Since God did not begin to exist, He doesn't have a cause.
What makes you thik the Univers had a begining? And why the Judeo-Christian god?
That's a whole lot of as.sumption!
@Colin,
"What makes you thik the Univers had a begining?
Have you heard of science? Einstein's General Theory of Relativity? Are you unaware of the theological implications of the Big Bang?
Einstein's General Theory of Relativity suggested a finite universe. But Einstein did like that idea because of it's theological implications. So Einstein created the "cosmological constant" to create an infinite universe again. When Edwin Hubble showed Einstein that the universe was indeed expanding, he regretted his cosmolical constate.
Fred Hoyle came up with the Steady State model in an attempt to create an infintie universe again. But the the Big Bang theory was proved correct when the found the background radiation.
So science confirms a finite universe. So it raises the question "What caused the universe to come into existance?"
so you think a better answer is the human brain was created by magic? your invisible sky fairy waved his magic wand and magicked up a planet and magicked up some people and magicked up animals and plants? that's a more satisfying answer to you? even saying 'i don't know' is a more satisfying answer? religion makes people intellectually lazy.
This is the best you come up with. I never said any of this stuff. All I said is that it is not logical to think that there is no creator behind the most sophisticated creature like human.
And what is behind your creator, as he must be much more complex than a human brain?
THis is not about belief, its about logic. You have enough understanding that you can see from your eyes that all this is not possible without there be a creator behind all this.
Khalid.. so where tell did the creator come from ? .use your logic now...
so you think there is a creator? describe your creator please.
and who created your creator? i assume your creator is much more complex than a human - so applying your same logic - who created your creator? and who created that creator? and the one before that? ad infinimum...
Its like you ask an ant where we come from. Or expect a mac computer to run a windows file. Just because you cannot process this information (because you are not designed to) does not mean that you throw away your own functions and duties.
What does Gates pizzing on Jobs (in the 90's) have to do with this? Jobs doing the same to Gates (oh, he retired) in the 2000's+.
I would claim my brain is the product of millions of years of evolution and natural selection rather than "came from nothing."
joe stalin very reasonable since he died
chairman mao very reasonable since he died
madaline murray ohare extremely reasonable since she died
all so called atheists will eventually become reasonable
Better to live believing their is a God and die to find out than the other way around 🙂 Eternity is a long time.
The logic of the choice you posit is called "Pascal's Wager."
This is why it is a fallacy:
a) Pascal's Wager assumes that there are only two options – believe in the Judeo-Christian god or nothing.
b) Pascal's Wager assumes the Christian god doesn't care whether someone actually believes, or simply goes through the motions;
c) Pascal's Wager vastly overestimates the likelihood of the risk times the gravity of the risk.
a. Positing only two options is ridiculous and a Christian prejudice to value the likelihood of the existence of the Christian god over all others. There are, of course, thousands of possibilities when it comes to gods. A non-exhaustive list of gods that various human societies have believed in at one time or another includes Azura Mazda, Angus, Belenos, Brigid, Dana, Lugh, Dagda, Epona, Allah Aphrodite, Apollo, Ares, Artemis, Atehna, Demeter, Dionysus, Eris, Eos, Gaia, God, Hades, Hekate, Helios, Hephaestus, Hera, Hermes, Hestia, Pan, Poseidon, Selene, Uranus, Zeus, Mathilde, Elves, Eostre, Frigg, Ganesh, Hretha, Saxnot, Shef, Shiva Thuno, Tir, Vishnu, Weyland, Woden, Yahweh, Alfar, Balder, Beyla, Bil, Bragi, Byggvir, Dagr, Disir, Eir, Forseti, Freya, Freyr, Frigga, Heimdall, Hel, Hoenir, Idunn, Jord, Lofn, Loki, Mon, Njord, Norns, Nott, Odin, Ran, Saga, Sif, Siofn, Skadi, Snotra, Sol, Syn, Ull, Thor, Tyr, Var, Vali, Vidar, Vor, Herne, Holda, Nehalennia, Nerthus, Endovelicus, Ataegina, Runesocesius, Apollo, Bacchus, Ceres, Cupid, Diana, Janus, Juno, Jupiter, Maia, Mars, Mercury, Minerva, Neptune, Pluto, Plutus, Proserpina, Venus, Vesta, Vulcan, Attis, Cybele, El-Gabal, Isis, Mithras, Sol Invictus, Endovelicus, Anubis, Aten, Atum, Bast, Bes, Geb, Hapi, Hathor, Heget, Horus, Imhotep, Isis, Khepry, Khnum, Maahes, Ma’at, Menhit, Mont, Naunet, Neith, Nephthys, Nut, Osiris, Ptah, Ra, Sekhmnet, Sobek, Set, Tefnut, Thoth, An, Anshar, Anu, Apsu, Ashur, Damkina, Ea, Enki, Enlil, Ereshkigal, Nunurta, Hadad, Inanna, Ishtar, Kingu, Kishar, Marduk, Mummu, Nabu, Nammu, Nanna, Nergal, Ninhursag, Ninlil, Nintu, Shamash, Sin, Tiamat, Utu, Mitra, Amaterasu, Susanoo, Tsukiyomi, Inari, Tengu, Izanami, Izanagi, Daikoku, Ebisu, Benzaiten, Bishamonten, Fukurokuju, Jurojin, Hotei, Quetzalcoatl, Tlaloc, Inti, Kon, Mama Cocha, Mama Quilla, Manco Capac, Pachacamac and Zaramama
To increase the odds of a positive outcome of Pascal’s Wager to the point where it is even plausible, the believer would have to believe in many, many gods, including the ones that haven't been invented yet. This is obviously impossible – particularly as most of them require(d) monotheistic devotion!!
b. One cannot “choose to believe” something. That has to be an honest conclusion drawn from the facts. I could not “choose” to believe in the Hindu god Shiva or Leprechauns, for example, as that would make no sense. What I can do is SAY I believe or PRETEND to believe. But going through the motions and pretending to believe may fool your community, but it can't fool an all-knowing god. It is very unlikely that anyone would gain the ultimate reward for simply faking belief.
c. In estimating whether the cost of any given action is worth it, an evaluation the likelihood of a negative outcome and the gravity of that negative outcome must be performed. Here is where proponents of the wager say they have a leg up, as an eternity of perdition must be valued very highly. However, if the concomitant likelihood is close to infinitely low, it balances out to close enough to zero to be ignored. Given that the evidence for the existence of the Judeo-Christian god is zero, much less for the vindictive personality you posit he has, the likelihood must be valued close to zero. If one were to take the believer’s approach, one should live about a mile down an abandoned coal mine to avoid a very, very unlikely, but fatal meteor impact.
When extrapolated to the extreme of a god, the math becomes meaningless. For e.g., if I posited a god a billion times more vengeful and gruesome than yours, would you drop your belief in God and run over to my super-god based on your Pascal’s Wager logic?
Colin posted that as steve and then posted his witty packaged remark.
whoa. look how quick it happened. aye aye aye!
You're wrong! 🙂
popeye, olive oil and brutas! Best cartoon growing up aye, aye, aye!
I'll stick with accepting Jesus as my savior thank you 🙂 In the eight years of making that choice, life has been awesome! I'm a left brained analytical person (not sure why I say that but it's true), I have to be shown the "just the facts man". I gave the Christian bible lifestyle a shot and it turned out to be pretty good! Are there challenges, yup, are there failures, yup, are there highs and lows, yup. The Jesus dude preaches to think of others, be self-less, humble, and many other traits that used to be the standard in our society. So thank you for all your theories, and negative mocking, my mind and choices are made up. If I fail, I'll join the rest going south where it's hot! http://www.52pickup.co is my testimony.
I think your god would figure out that you were faking it. Then what?
Hell!!!
You selfish individual, you know in your heart the truth. Yet you deny!
Why do you freaks deny Thor or any of the other god?
Freakin hypocrites!
thor was my cousin. he was a thief
What is the only thing capable of making 40% of the country utterly stupid enough to think the entire Universe began less than 10,000 years ago with one man, one woman and a talking snake:
(a) a horrid disease
(b) a totally failed education system
(c) a successful Al Queda plot to undermine the future of the US and its lead in the sciences; or
(d) Christianity?
Who could be dumb enough to believe that we are typing up here by sheer accident lol
The odds against it are greater than the odds that there is a Creator.
Thanks for proving my point
Dirt is just tiny rocks.
He is a Christopher Hitchens wannabe (minus the intelligence and talent)
We all should wannabe.
not to the point that it makes you an angry lil troll
This is the internet in 2013. I can be a "troll" if I want to be. Stop me, if you can.
Takes more faith IMO to believe we came from Rocks than a Creator.
Whish is probably why no atheist believes we came from rocks. In fact, the only book I know that claims we came from dirt is the Bible.
i don't have enough faith to follow atheism
when you die you become like dirt
Look at the Universe. In something with that scale and size, many, many thing are possible. And most are "against the odds". But everything will happen. So now here we are. We happened. In a Universe with trillions * trillions of chances. It has to happen a few times, right? God time? Not.
I think if someone asked me what my opinion of atheists is, it would be the same answer as if they asked me my opinion of Christians. Which ones? There are so many different beliefs among Christians, they aren't some mish-mash that all believe and act the same way. Same thing goes for atheists.
So what are you?
All Atheist believe one thing. No evidence for a god. But they don't all act the same about it.
Agreed. The only distinction is that atheists are not so diverse in their premises of atheism in itself; there are really only two flavors. Either you disbelieve in gods or don't hold belief in gods. You might make more flavors by calling this a scale. But the rest of atheist diversity is in logical or ethical beliefs or behaviors that are not specifically related to the rather aimple concept of atheism. Christianity on the other hand has a huge number of premises and so more internal diversity in addition to the same kind of personal diversity.
Very well stated, I'd agree there is as many negative Christians as negative alias. Both sides preach tolerance only to have in many cases they are not when someone doesn't agree. Me, I'm a Christian.
I consider myself an atheist and am frequently asked why I have such a strong sense of ethics and morals since I do not believe there is a god. (Note, I did not say I don't believe in god – as if there is one and I choose to deny its presence.) It is because I think for myself, not based on some external "authority" or "it is written", and therefore no ulterior motive such as getting into heaven or judgment by a god. I appreciate beauty in nature and wherever it exists.
So please, fellow atheists, educate those around you to understand that to be an atheist means to believe there is no god, not "don't believe in god."
Be well everyone.
If you don't believe in God, where do you think morality and ethics comes from?
Morality and ethics DO NOT come from believing in god. I am an atheist and have been asked before "Well if you don't believe in God, then where do your moral come from?" ... This is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. I do not need a magical man in the sky to know what is right from what is wrong. The majority of people in prison are Christians, and lets not forget all those catholic priests who molest children. Religion is just a poison. I am religion free and live a healthy lifestyle, and I have a clean record, a bachelors degree, and I have never killed anybody 🙂
That's not what I heard..... Lol
@Ashley,
You didn't answer the question so let me ask it again: Where do you think morality and ethics comes from?
Ashley, you seem sensible Atheist, which is good. The bible has the Ten commandments, which the first four are about God, the others are about social 'rules' and structure. Today's society has a basis of right and wrong, which for an older person would associate with basic Christian teachings of loving your neighbor as yourself. I don't think for a moment I'll pursade anyone's opinion differently on a text based story, the idea of a 'good person' by the world standards can change daily and depending on the person. If I say I'm against the gay agenda cause I'm tired of the media shoving it in our face, yet believe this person will have to answer for the own choices one day, it's not for me to judge. I'd be slammed by people associating me just because I'm a Christian.
Even if you do believe in God, where does God provide our morality and ethics?
not from the Priests and Crusaders and suicide bombers.
Same place as yours, same place as all Christians – themselves. I have yet to meet a single Christian that doesn't decide on their own morality. I've yet to meet a Christian that thinks slavery is morally right. Since the bible is fine with it, they must be deciding that all on their own....
" I have yet to meet a single Christian that doesn't decide on their own morality."
That doesn't mean that objective moral standards don't exist. It's just that people don't like to be judged when they don't meet the standard.
Paul morality and ethics evolved..they are as much apart of the reason we are here. Those who were able to exist in society passed on our genetic material those who could not could were not selected for mates or were probably killed. If you think that god is the epitome of morality them you have not read the bible. i am glad we did not get morality from your god.
Oprah does get it wrong. Very wrong...After reading through just one page of comments, I am in awe at the level of crazy ignorance, nasty self-righteousness, and fear mongering from Christians. Ew. I now need to go look at the moon and stars to purge the yuck feeling with some happy awe.
thanks poe
I DON'T THINK OPHRA GETS IT WRONG....I THINK ATHEIST GET WRONG .....ITS NOT ABOUT A WORD "GOD" ITS NOT ABOUT AN ENERGY "SPRIT" AND YES IT IS ABOUT THE AWE OF IT ALL..... ITS ABOUT ALL OF IT! AND IT DONSE NOT MATTER WHAT YOU CALL IT OR LACK OF CALLING IT ...... WE ARE HERE AND WE ARE NOT HERE BY COINCIDENCE BECAUSE ALL THE CRAP IN THE UNIVERSE CAME TOGETHER BY HAPPENSTANCE .... WALA .... NONE OF YOU COULD EVER TELL US WHERE WE CAME FROM NOR WHERE WE ARE GOING ...... SO CALL IT WHAT YOU WANT ....... IT IS ALL ... SUPREME ..... AND THEREFORE CAN NOT BE INSIGNIFICANT! AND THAT'S ..... SOMETHING!
Can you tell us where we all came from .... with proof? You'd have a lot of converts if you could.
Shush.
Well, it's true.
" IT IS ALL ... SUPREME ..... AND THEREFORE CAN NOT BE INSIGNIFICANT! AND THAT'S ..... SOMETHING!"
First of all... let's lay off of the caps. I can tell you're excited, but it's really hard to read.
2nd, If everything is ALL and ALL is God, then god is everything and therefore nothing. Imagine a room with no space and only furniture and every nanometer is filled with something... then it's not actually a room anymore. Just think about it for a while.
I stopped believing in sprits when one of them got jiggy with my bff's mom.
SPRITE HAVE NO ENERGY. MOOTAN DEW DO BETTER 4 U.
Turn off the caps you dweeb.
One thing about atheists: They don't go running around telling you you're going to hell. They don't go around saying the Jews killed Jesus. And they don't think the earth is flat!
But they still perpetuate the flat earth myth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_myth
All because 2 college professors cited a fictional book as fact.
I think the "Flat Earh Society" may disagree.
Problem with chrsitiantiy is that it's too diluted by varying views at this point. It would be much more convincing if there was a single "christian" theology.
Maybe, but atheist are hypocrites and good at covering the truth with lies.
You're the idiot. Cry to skydaddy loser.
In God we trust? Blah, blah, blah fart. Your country is committing slow political suicide by congress and all you can talk about is god? No wonder you've been getting your ass kicked for the last 43 years. Prey to your Jesus if you will;I don't it is interested.
WMM
Leave it to a wasted Canadian not to realize the reason that his country is so safe is because no one wants to have to fight through oUrS to get to it. Let's pray he understands before he becomes prey.
I came to believe in God when I was five years old because my mother was an artist. She had a number of friends who were also artists and a number of friends who were not artists. By the time I was five, I could tell as soon as we entered someone's house if the owner was an artist or not: most people had a picture or two on the walls and some ornaments on the tables; the artists had paintings stacked against one another all over the room or scuptures in various states of completion on every available surface. It was quite obvious: where there was art, there was an artist. At the time, we lived in the mountains, in a beautiful area, and every time I stepped out of doors I saw the art all around me. It was obvious to me at that time that where there is art, there is an Artist, and I realize this most of all every time I look at another human being. I have only grown over the years in my appreciation and love of God.
Beauty/art is in the eye of the beholder, not an absolute.
Dear Birch Please, Beauty and art are not synonyms. Beauty can be in the eye of the beholder yes,, but it takes a person to make art and it takes a person to appreciate art. Not all art is beautiful. Grunewald's Crucifixion can hardly be called beautiful, but art is always meaningful. It is a communication from one person to another. I learned that from seeing my mother paint. That is how I can recognize art and not just beauty in nature and especially in human beings.
Your half right. It seems to take humans to appreciate art but elephants and gorillas have created it.
Another possibility is that you evolved on earth, and therefore you have come to view your surroundings as something good. For imagine if you didn't. Would you be here?
Post by 'Marie Hicks' presents a form of the Argument from Ignorance fallacy.
http://fallacyfiles.org/glossary.html
Fallacy – Is that the only thing you have to say? Only copy/paste all the time?
If it is correct, why does it matter that it was copied? He does provide a lookup reference.
He/she fails to point out the atheist fallacies.
AE what are the atheist fallacies?
Dear Fallacy Spotting 101, What I said was not an argument. It was an expression of my personal experience. I don't expect to convince anyone of anything. I don't believe that one convince someone else to accept a personal relationship with another. I couldn't convince you to like my best friend: I can only share with you what a wonderful person my friend is. I don't see how one can prove a personal relationship. But on the other hand, I don't see how arguments can prove that a relationship doesn't exist.
But if your friend's imaginary, I think arguments could be made.
This argument works well if you don't know anything about science or evolution.
Dear GodFreeNow, For me and for many other people, religion is a personal relationship. St. Teresa of Avila defines prayer as "An exchange between friends." None of my friendships depend on science. And, believe it or not, I am a Catholic and I have never had any problem with accepting the theory of evolution. It just don't use it as a criterion for choosing my friends. Friendship, and that includes friendship with God, comes from a deeper level in the human person, deeper than feelings, deeper than logic, from the very essence of what it means to be a person. What do your friendships depend on?
The other person existing certainly helps...
Dear GodFreeNow, I'm not a scientist, so I will refer you to someone who is: Guy Consolmango, S,J,, who was a Professer at M.I.T. You can contact him at http://vaticanobservatory.org/index.php/es/staff/85-brother-guy
i've had an opposite experience - i grew up in a religious household.
now that i'm an atheist, i'm much happier.
What about art collectors?
have only grown over the years in my appreciation and love of God
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That's cool. But, are you religious?
Dear Madtown, I certainly hope so! God is the center of my life and the source of the best that I have to give to others. I have tried to do it on my own, and I can see the difference He makes in my life. The love I have to give to others is much more effective than anything I could manage without Him.
Isn't it odd then so many of us have found the opposite to be true. Or the other billions of people who aren't christian..
God is the source of morality and also of aesthetics. It's getting to be like a Swiss Army knife.
The Christian god is preceded by Confucius, who wrote out a system of morality 500 years before Christ. Then there is Hammurabi, too. So to lay "morals" at the foot of the christian god is ridiculous.So much of the bible's "morality" is simple plagiarism from the Egyptians. The Egyptians were polytheistic, though.
Methinks Tom, Tom was being facetious.
If you want the vast majority of atheists to shut up, keep religion out of our government.
The author made some good points. I have no problem with "theists" as long as they don't try to force their religion on me personally, or via legislation. It's too bad that atheists get such a bad reaction from the religious types. They somehow see us as having no morals, instead of people that do not need religion to be moral.
They see a person who provides doubt for their own beliefs, if every single person thought the way they do they would no longer be forced to question and the uneasiness that leads too.
Some believers hold that this is all true: "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son." John 3:18
So, kind believer, what kind of belief is called for? Justified belief – like Thomas or John, you saw and touched the resurrected Christ, or you believe on the basis of some evidence that to you seems incontrovertible? Unfounded belief – you want it to be true and you believe for no other reason than that? Other?
Thomas was not exactly praised for his "justified" belief. Jesus said to him, "You have believed because you have seen. blessed are they who have not seen yet believe".
What a perfect system to get the gullable to blindly follow. Count yourself in!
I was just getting ready to say that...along with, "thou shalt not test the Lord thy God."
A couple of believers, AE, I think, and Chad (a while back) agreed that a kind of justification is part of their belief: Suppose method M is a means to belief. M is such that M would being about belief if God does exist, and M would bring about unbelief if God does not exist. They claimed to have come to belief in that way, but were silent when it came to what M is all about.
I'd be OK with that. Require proof but not be blessed? Certainly.
Only children and the misinformed believe in a god.
Vegas – Sure, actually, generally people that believe in God are very well informed. Faith in the bible is define as"Faith+ is the assured expectation* of things hoped+ for, the evident demonstration* of realities* though not beheld." Heb 11:1. Science proves that there is a creature!
* Creator
More fine quotes from El Pibe's Christian book of nasty, since he is so inclined to dump bible bile on us:
Numbers 31:17-18
17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”
Revelations 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Leviticus 25
44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.
Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.
And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.
So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.
Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
You have no idea of what you're talking about.
Bob – What about this hope for mankind: "“Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them.+ 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes,+ and death will be no more,+ neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.+ The former things have passed away.” Rev 21:3,4 ?
El Pibe, the fact that the nasty bits are in there are sufficient to class your sky fairy as an ass hole. Here, again, are just a few of hundreds:
Numbers 31:17-18
17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”
Revelations 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Leviticus 25
44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.
Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.
And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.
So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.
Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
Bob – Why are you posting all that? I tought you didnt believe in God or in the bible? How do you know if all that really happened?
Note the wording, dummy. This is what your bible presents your god as demanding. Again, read what your Christian book of horrors presents your god ass hole as demanding, and then try to understand the commentary afterward:
Numbers 31:17-18
17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”
Revelations 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Leviticus 25
44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.
Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.
And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.
So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.
Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
Bob – You don't believe in any of that... I could explain all those bible texts to you, but it would be like "trowing gems to pigs".
Google "Joni Eareckson Tada"
She does more to help amputees than Bob and his website. And she is paralyzed. But she actually helps. She is not all talk and no action like Bob.
Thank God for people like her.
I would trust her over "Bob" and his spamming websites.
Once you put the verses into context, Bob disappears.
Up to the point of the children of Israel leaving Egypt until Mt. Sinai, people were living under grace. They could complain, murder etc. and would not die because of their sin.
After they told God "All that you command, we will do" (Boasting of their self-efforts), they were given the 10 Commandments.
The function of the Law was to reveal sin...to show man that he needed a savior, because by self-effort he would not be able to keep the law perfectly.
Because God is a just God, He has to judge Sin and punish it.
Due to the extreme wickedness of the people at that time (people having relations even with animals).. so their sins had to be judged and punished. Because they were demon-possessed they had to die because they couldn't be delivered/born again from their demonic-possession. (Different Dispensation– Old Covenant).
That is why 2000 years ago Jesus was judged in our place. We are now living under grace... (New Covenant) which is why now a person possessed can be delivered and born-again.
Do not mock what you do not understand.
The reason for the animal sacrifice in the old covenant was for the remission of sins. However the sacrifice of an animal for the sins of people was only good for a year.
Now that Jesus has come and was made our 1 sacrifice for sins forever.... through the shedding of His blood, that is why all the sins of your entire life has been forgiven (past, present, future sins).
Salvation is a gift... no amount of trying to be good (works) will earn it. Only believe that Jesus is the Son of God, that He was born of a virgin and died on the cross... rose on the third day.
If you truly knew or understood the significance of Christ's sacrifice (death and resurrection)... you would realize how truly God LOVES the world (people)... You...& Me.
For God loves you so much He sent His only son, that who so ever BELIEVES in him, will not perish (separation from God, once their Spirit leaves their physical body)... but have EVERLASTING life.
We're all eternal beings... so think of where you want your spirit to reside after it has left the earthly realm.
That's why it's important to be in Christ. God doesn't see you... he see's Christ Jesus... it is him who he judges in your place.
That should be good news to anyone.
(Those with an ear, let them hear, the good news of salvation)
May God Bless and reveal Himself to you.
Really AE, there is a context in which you think it is o.k. to kill everyone in a town except for the virgin women? Personally, I think that is wrong no matter the time or place, but would be interested in knowing when you think that it is acceptable.
Doctors, Noble Prize winners, University Professors, Police Officers, Navy SEALS, Fire Fighters, Presidents, CEOs, etc, etc.
misinformed
None of which is evidence of the existence of a god.
I didn't say it was. But there are people that demonstrate great understanding of our world that believe in God. Logic, science, and rational thinking does not lead everyone to atheism.
Logic, science, and rational thinking does not lead anyone to theism.
Faith is pretending to know things you don't know.
Speak for yourself.
“I strongly believe in the existence of God, based on intuition, observations, logic, and also scientific knowledge.”
–Charles Hard Townes
I strongly believe in the existence of God,
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He is speaking for himself. The Townes quote doesn't suggest he thinks he "knows" anything, just that he believes.
But to say "Logic, science, and rational thinking does not lead anyone to theism. " is not right.
It has led many to God.
Because of
– intuition
– observations
– logic
– scientific knowledge.
He strongly believes in God
It has led many to God.
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Theism and "God" are independent concepts. You can believe in God, you don't need religion for that. Religion is the man-made result of mankind trying to answer questions that are not answerable.
He strongly believes in God
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You bet he does, and also doesn't "know" anything for certain. Why? He's a human being. None of us know for certain.
Do you know what your name is?
AE. do you think that those scientists believe in Thor? or Ra? or Mars? do you.. they are gods yet you do not believe in them why are they less real than your favorite god?
The only Logic, science and rational thinking that leads to "god" is faulty. The best answer as to the question of god those can lead to is "I don't know".
Misinformed, fearful of death, or trying to get more votes.
Only a crazy person is not fearful of death.
lol good one!
Atheists – dead meat.
The same can be said for Christians. Worm protein, in the end.
All life = star dust
Road Kill = Money from home for Heaven Sent, just cut off the stinky bits for the cats.
Why does not believing in a God have to have a name? I call it intelligence.
Extreme minority. Shockingly honest. Couldn't have been another way.