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 The Air Force Academy has made a big change to its honor code to reflect religious diversity.
October 25th, 2013
05:11 PM ET
Air Force makes 'God' optional in honor codeBy Emily Smith, CNN (CNN) - The U.S. Air Force Academy has decided to make phrase "so help me God" optional in its honor code after an activist group protested that requiring all cadets to recite it violates their rights. The complete oath reads: "We will not lie, steal, or cheat, nor tolerate among us anyone who does, so help me God." Cadets are required to recite the oath when they complete basic training. It is also taken by the entire cadet wing each year as re-affirmation of their commitment to the honor code, said AFA spokesman Major Brus Vidal. The Military for Religious Freedom Foundation, a watchdog group that has waged repeated battle with the armed services, took issue with the last clause of the sentence, saying that no cadets should be forced to make a promise to God. After the complaint was filed by MRFF, the Air Force Academy Honor Review Committee met for an in-depth discussion regarding the oath. On Friday, the AFA released a statement saying they had decided to make the final clause of the honor oath optional. The AFA statement read, in part, “Here at the Academy, we world to build a culture of dignity and respect, and that respect includes the ability of our cadets, Airmen and civilian Airmen to freely practice and exercise their religious preference –- or not.” "The fact that the oath is optional will be communicated in honor lessons, leadership lessons, and religious respect lessons during the summer (cadet basic military training) so all trainees will understand prior to taking the Cadet Honor Oath that the final clause will be completely optional," said Vidal. "The person administering the oath, who is the cadet wing honor chair has the option to say or not say 'so help me god," so this might vary from year to year," Vidal continued. MORE ON CNN: Air Force: Bible and nukes don't mix Mikey Weinstein, MRFF's founder and president, said he would sue the academy on behalf of his clients if the words were still left at the end of the oath, even if repeating them was optional. “If the words are still there and you don’t say [them] you turn yourself into a tarantula on a wedding cake,” he said. MRFF has taken issue with the Air Force before. In 2011, the group complained about an Air Force training presentation that used religion to teach the ethics and morality of using nuclear weapons. That same year, CNN learned that the Air Force was using religious tenets such as the Ten Commandments to teach core values to ROTC cadets. MORE ON CNN: Air Force's use of Christian messages extends to ROTC
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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I see references to this almost every time I visit this site and I have attempted to explain it, but I must not be communicating very well. You have to believe to believe and belief is not a choice. These are both true. Imagine faith as having levels, for example 10 levels. If you believe God is impossible, then you are at zero. If you believe there could be a God, you are at 1. If you believe there is a God, you are at 3. Now stop, these three are the faith you bring. In order to advance to the next level and those beyond requires the power of God.
"belief is not a choice"
So how can your God penalize me for not believing? I have no choice.
Have you ever heard the gospel and felt a tug at your heart? Have you ever realized that you are a sinner in need of a savior? If you answered yes to those questions, then you have made a choice. If you answered no, then you haven't had your opportunity to choose, yet.
I'm sorry, did your OP have a typo? Did you mean to say " belief is a choice"?
No, no typo, but maybe I should have said believing there is or isn't a God is not a choice. Believing unto salvation or reaching the level of faith where you are converted requires the choice, as detailed in my reply.
Robert,
I have a hard time reconciling "belief is not a choice" with humans have free will. If belief is not a choice then how can I be sent to hell for not accepting Jesus? I had no choice.
Bostontola,
Are you seeking God.
?
Regardless of the answer, you chose, freewill?
Robert,
Why would anyone need to SEEK god?
I was just curious. I think everyone who doesn't know God should seek, not that he can't find you if you don't. It does seem that he may find you quicker if you're looking for him. I guess you wouldn't feel the need to seek unless you thought there could be a God.
Robert,
I have always had a lot of curiosity and followed it. I was brought up religious and found nothing. I find tremendous reward in science, mathematics, art, and literature.
I like those four too, but I have found God to be the most rewarding. There are lots of things wrong with organized religion. There are good and bad churches. I've attended several examples of both. I'm sorry you didn't find God in the religion you were exposed to early in life. There are people who love God and each other. If you know some nice folks who are Christians, I'm sure they would be delighted if you visited their place of worship. You may find a group that is different than what you remember.
Robert,
I sincerely appreciate your recommendation. I have an amazing group of family and friends that support me with love and companionship. I am quite fortunate that i am not not missing anything.
And the winner is the one with the lowest score. Kind of like golf.
If it helps you can consider it your handicap.
Whats your handicap? 10?
I'm not sure about that, Robert, but maybe so. But that doesn't make the belief accurate. I would expect a muslim or a cult follower to tell me pretty much the exact same thing. And yes, you can make yourself believe something that you initially find completely illogical. You can self brain wash.
So, maybe you are correct.
However, there is no good reason to believe in the god of the bible and many reasons to believe he does not exist. Certainly some sort of "god" might exist somewhere, but it is illogical that it would be anything like the one of the bible. That's the point, not that a person can brainwash himself.
I'm happy to read that you're not at zero.
You've said that if one is fortunate enough to believe, then your God reinforces that belief convincingly, Robert. In a way that can't be transmitted to people not fortunate enough to believe. Well, "fortunate enough" is my addition, but it gets at the idea that a person can't believe by an act of will, which seems to be what you are saying.
I believed in God before he made the offer. I have also heard testimonies from people who did not believe and were given the offer. The point is we come with some level of faith, then yes the rest is up to God. You can't make yourself believe unto salvation, he has to draw you and convict you of sin. Affirmation and reaffirmation are important faith builders and are the work of God.
Well, some of us are unbelievers just now, Robert. There is Romans 10:17, so there is something to be done in the meantime, I suppose.
Hearing the word of God preached in the power of the Holy Spirit is a great way to get the offer of saving faith. Somewhere in there Jesus said something about having ears to hear. People can hear the gospel with the ears on the side of their head many times. It is when the Holy Spirit impresses those words you are hearing with your ears to your heart and mind that you really hear the word of God, Jesus. John 1:1
Now what is the message there? The message is that there are no "knowns." There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know. So when we do the best we can and we pull all this information together, and we then say well that's basically what we see as the situation, that is really only the known knowns and the known unknowns. And each year, we discover a few more of those unknown unknowns.
Rumsfeld
Your you have to believe to believe reminded me of this.
Good quote Lamb. The really good news is that with the power of God, you can move from zero to 3.
Robert, belief is very much a choice. It is certainly not a requirement. There have been times in the past where people have been tortured or even killed in order to force a pretense of belief, but true belief cannot be coerced. And you cannot tell us that we must believe. You are not that important.
I don't claim any importance T, just relating my own experience. As I told Lamb, you can go from nonbelief to belief. The only choice that matters is if you accept Gods call, or not. If he hasn't offered the free gift to you yet, you haven't had the opportunity to accept or reject.
The higher the level, the crazier the person. I wish it was possible to see what level someone is at before you let them get close enough to get the crazy on ya!
They're the ones who laugh and smile a lot.
I think they should make the entire oath optional. Why swear allegiance to anything? The direction of the country changes with each new President.
I guess if you're hiring people to kill for you, you want some sort of verbal commitment—not that I think it holds much weight anymore.
The mimics are out in full force. I think it is ironic that mimicry is an evolved characteristic, used by evolution deniers. What is not ironic is how cowardly it is.
That seems to be the way the conversation has evolved, but since they don't believe in evolution, it must be the way god wants the conversation to go.
More evidence in support of no god:
Any god that cared about its flock would let them know that evolution is its tool to make complex life, it wouldn't let them make fools of themselves.
You can't expect people who haven't found themselves to be themselves. Sad but true.
Who said anything about sin? I called you a coward.
Turnovers change things, ESP on Sundays.
actions cause change; prayer wastes valuable time.
instead of praying, try planning. then execute the plan. your time in prayer would be better put to use actually doing something.
The civility of this stretch of conversation is very encouraging... so I just wanted to add my thoughts.
I do not believe you can argue a person into belief. Belief is something one has to embrace from their heart.
If there was enough curiosity on both sides, and civil questioning and answering regarding one's personal belief, there would be more conversations like this on the blog without it degenerating into name calling etc.
Jesus' gospel was one of NO CONDEMNATION. That's why you'd find him in the presence of those that society and the religious (Pharisees) disdain.
It is unnerving to have a conversation with someone who should be afraid on my behalf that I am headed for an eternity of torment because of my unbelief. If they seem calm, I wonder why. I wouldn't be if I actually believed in such things.
I only hear atheists and far-right wing fundies preach "eternity of torment because of my unbelief".
Thank God not all Christians say or believe that.
What is my fate, in your opinion AE, if I die never having believed in your God or the salvation it offers?
I don't know. It certainly is not up to me. There is nothing to indicate you will suffer eternal torment for not believing what I believe.
@Tom, Tom, the Other One: What is my fate, in your opinion AE, if I die never having believed in your God or the salvation it offers?
A wise teacher teaches:
ALL mankind will ultimately go back through the passage way at the east of the garden of Eden where the fiery sword and the cherubim are. If we seek the Lord now and are baptized in fire,...
On the other hand, those that dawdle and remain two eyed will continue on their merry way until the end of this age is rolled up like a scroll.
Then, the procrastinators will be forced to take the only passage out which is through the fire.
What is for us the baptism of fire, becomes a "hell fire" for them as they are suddenly forced to face their own carnality.
For if we seek the Lord now, the refining process is a more gradual one and when it is completed, we will welcome rather than dread the end of this age.
But, in any case, the objective of the process is to free man from his carnality, not to destroy him.
For it is the carnality that is to be burned up root and branch."
Just to clarify... carnality just means relying solely on the five senses. The opposite of carnality is spirituality. Man is both carnal and spiritual. though in this earthly realm, the carnal is most prevalent. It is this carnality we're trying to subdue (by transforming the mind)
i acknowledge that not all christians feel that way
interestingly enough robert brown says all christians speak for god
he, amazing grace, you, gopher, good news, vic, austin, etc
glad to see that the big guy has so many people speaking for him
Jesus' Beloved,
That sounds like Dante. You do know that he was a fantasy writer, don't you?
We can't use the bible to determine how god will treat unbelievers because the bible itself is so contradi.tory, but it does allow wiggle room for Christians to believe anything they want depending on how liberal or conservative are their beliefs. It is certainly reasonable for a Christian to believe that all unbelievers will suffer in fiery torment for all eternity, though.
Weird. I have never heard of an atheist saying another atheist will burn in hell for non-belief. That seems to be a little contradictory.
Christians can't even agree on what the hell they believe. That's scary too.
It will be better for you if you were never born thazn to harm one of these little ones.
Neither do I condemn you. Don't sin anymore, though. Now go.
messiah complex
belief is not a choice. you believe something or you don't. you can't decide to believe the sky is green. you can't decide to believe drinking rabbit urine makes you bullet proof. you can't choose to believe god is real. you either believe these things or you don't. but you can change your mind. you can think something through and come up with a different conclusion. discussions can help toward such a change. no one that is a staunch christian is going to read a paragraph about atheism and become an atheist. but if he reads lots of paragraphs about it, he might change his mind about god.
"Jesus' gospel was one of NO CONDEMNATION"
+++ can't say i agree with you there. jesus recommended beating disobedient slaves "with many stripes." he said some great things about love and helping the poor - but he also said some disgusting things. he wouldn't exercise a demon from a little girl until her mother called her race dogs. and jesus said no one gets to heaven unless they go through Him - which means i'm going to hell to be tortured for eternity because i'm an atheist. in the end days, jesus opens his daddy's seven seals, releasing death, plague, famine, war, etc. on the world, killing millions. if you want to discuss jesus, you have to discuss the good and the bad.
Jesus did not recommend beating disobedient slaves with many stripes.
wrong:
Luke 12
47 And that slave, who knew his lord's will, and made not ready, nor did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes;
That doesn't say slaves should be beaten. Take it out of context, it kind of seems that way. But put it into context. What parable did Jesus tell? What question was he asked when he made that statement? What point was Jesus trying to make?
Who was he talking about? Slaves? Or Christian leaders and their special responsibilities and implications?
I've noticed that everytime a Christian doesn't like something from the bible, it always taken outta 'context'.
He said some great things about love? R u seriously trying to impress someone? Exactly what did he say about love?
The truth is, God is not optional in our society. In my workplace, you are viewed with suspi cion if you are an atheist. This is not some v ague feeling, i have heard people say so directly. I heard similar things in previous companies. Every other atheist I know thinks the same thing about their workplace.
Not really a problem here, but I'm kind of in charge and almost everyone is a molecular biologist, molecular geneticist or one of several kinds of mathematician or computer scientist. Some few believe in a God or gods, but I don't think mainstream believers would approve of what I hear from them.
Unfortunately I think your workplace is in the minority. Just based on my experience and my circle though.
your right, bostonia. before i opened my own business (which only has 3 employees), most of the jobs i had i went through the same thing. one place i worked at had 8 people, all christians. when they found out i was an atheist... wow, was i ostracized. atheists have long had to hide their views, and many still have to. slowly but surely, that's changing. i do feel bad for atheists working in the south or other christian strongholds.
Booty,
I have some contracts in the Bible Belt and most of the people I meet there are intolerant. It's not just atheists, they don't tolerate Jews, etc very well.
yeah, i have relatives there. i could tell you a million stories of their ignorance when it comes to race, women, g.ays, etc. it's always been a weird thing, imo. these are people that will give you the shirt off their back, will stop and help you fix a flat tire, give a stranger a slice of pie cooling in the window - if you're white, straight and christian. if you are not all of those things, you will be hated and feared. if you're a white guy and your car breaks down on the road - they will actually stop to help you. but if you are a black guy - it's more likely they'll call the cops on you and say you're stealing a car. yeah, it's definitely not just atheists that feel it. and atheism can be hidden, unlike the color of your skin. but it's also a different monster. tell your southern family your an atheist (something considered a choice) and they may break off contact with you. i have family that won't talk to me because i'm an atheist. there is a special element to it.
Yes, you can always tell by the chill in the room. And it is bigotry. And I have nothing I can do about it but get the hell out of there before someone does something nasty. It appears similar to what black people encounter, as I have seen that as well.
Truth be told, point being, he killed everyone, so, agreed, r u seriously thinking he lacked a reason?
Grad school was a relative paradise. It was SoCal, everyone was a scientist, we had people from all over the world, and the few that did believe were quite open-minded and very far from being fundamentalists. Religion just was not an issue. It was quite a refreshing change from growing up in the South.
Fast forward a few years to my current job as a scientist at a private company in Utah, and things are a bit different... Most people at my work assume I am a Mormon because I am white. The things I hear when they think everyone in the room is "part of the club" are just sick. Everything from celebrating the wildfires in Santa Barbara a few years ago (burn sinners, burn!) to racism that rivals what I saw in the South regarding the president and Indians who are colleagues on my R&D team (the people who developed the technology that provided these aspiration-challenged idiots with their high school-level jobs).
It sounds like what the atheists do to the Christians on this blog. Do they call you names and change your name to slurs, too?
Your livelihood can't be damaged on this blog, that is a poor comparison which misses the point.
It goes both ways. Tolerance and acceptance is they key.
get off your high horse, AE. christians steal handles and flame atheists on this blog all the time.
the issue is not on a silly blog, but in someone's workplace.
That is unfortunate that some people act that way. It happens in other areas of life, too, like politics and even race. It is more of a human problem, than an uniquely Christian problem. Christians have claimed discrimination in workplaces where atheists are the majority.
I live in the Bible Belt and lived as an atheist for 20+ years. I didn't think I was treated poorly by Christians. Most places I worked people kept their private lives private. Maybe society in the Midwest is different than your society.
sounds like you had a very unusual experience. i doubt most atheists would say their experiences in the work place were as congenial as yours. sounds like you avoided conflict by not talking about your religious beliefs at work, but that doesn't mean people were tolerant of your beliefs - they just didn't know them. huge difference. so how about an honest answer - how would the people in the bible belt have treated you if you had been open about your atheism?
"It sounds like what the atheists do to the Christians on this blog. Do they call you names and change your name to slurs, too?"
++ when you say something like this, you're painting a picture of one said being innocent and one side guilty. you cry about atheists being mean here but don't mention that christians do the same thing. that's what i was pointing out, your demonizing atheism and neglecting to mention christians are just as "mean."
Yes. I've spent my life in Kansas City, KS, Topeka, KS Minneapolis, MN and now back in Kansas City, KS.
My education, work place, recreational activities have been very secular. Most talk I heard about religion was how horrible it was. I guess it was the company I kept.
I wasn't fearful or shy about my atheism. I did my job well, so that was what was most important. I didn't worry about what others said or believed. I still really don't.
you're avoiding discussing the issue or you're just missing the point. you bring up your experience as an ex-atheist living and working in a highly christian area and say everything was great. well, either you're sugarcoating your experience or you had a very unusual experience. most atheists have had negative experiences with bigotry in the work place. if you were an atheist for 20+ years, you should know that. most atheists have hidden their beliefs while watching christians promote theirs openly. things are changing now, and especially in the more progressive areas. but you're saying decades ago in the bible belt christians treated an atheist great? that makes me laugh a bit, sorry. they obviously didn't know you were an atheist. i agree people shouldn't discuss their religious views at work, but often christians have been exempt from that rule.
I didn't think it was that tough being an atheist. I certainly didn't see Christians promoting other Christians. I can remember so many examples of staunch atheists gaining promotions because of their work.
I've worked 15 years with a company who's goal is to serve our customers and make money. Not promote religious beliefs.
Do some people promote people with similar belief systems? Yes. Atheists and Christians are both guilty of this. Can someone overcome that discrimination? Yes.
you just seem dishonest in what you're saying.
"I didn't think it was that tough being an atheist. I certainly didn't see Christians promoting other Christians. I can remember so many examples of staunch atheists gaining promotions because of their work. "
+++ so you saw lots of examples of atheists gaining promotions but not christians? where did you work? a science lab maybe? there were lots of people at your work that you knew to be atheist that gained promotion? doesn't sound true. and all of this decades ago and in the bible belt? now it really doesn't sound true.
i agree that it's wrong to promote someone because of their beliefs or lack thereof, from any side. but by and large, when it happens, it's christians doing it to others in this country. most people in the country are christian - atheists are a small minority. when an atheist gets a job at a company, most of the people there will likely be christian. it's been okay until recently for christian to openly promote their religion above all others. you seem to want to ignore this fact.
That is not my experience in my 25 years of working. I've worked for atheists, Hindus, Jews and Christians, though.
I've worked the past 15 years in graphic arts in a very large and very Midwestern corporation.
I didn't say I didn't see Christians being promoted. I saw people promoted on merit. Which included atheists. One of my best friends started as an intern when I was entry level and now he is upper management, for example.
echo chamber schizophrenic bias
" I can remember so many examples of staunch atheists gaining promotions because of their work. "
+++ it's statements like this that make me doubt your honesty. you knew "so many" atheists that were promoted? really? and this was in 1975? and in the bible belt? lots of open and staunch atheists 30 years ago in the bible belt? that's your story?
In the 2000's. Yes, in the Bible Belt. People who certainly were not ashamed or fearful of their atheism.
I wasn't working 30 years ago.
AE,
I agree that intention is important and I don't agree with intolerance at all. But consequences of actions are equally important. Consequences of mean behavior on this blog are nil. Mean people live with the consequences in this world. Advancement in a company should have nothing to do with beliefs, it should be based on your contribution to success.
no consequences... and no rewards. it's a blog. people can express any opinion they want. yes, people flame one another on blogs - though from your above post you seem to think christians are innocent and it's just the atheists. it's both. get over it.
and how do you define "mean"? is me saying jesus was a myth "mean"? is it "mean" to say the bible's promotion of slavery is disgusting? is it "mean" to point out the bible's promotion of h.omophobia? christians often think any criticism is mean.
Booty,
Mean people are spread through almost any cross section. I was talking about any mean person, atheist, Christian, Buddhist, etc. sorry for the misunderstanding.
I would find a better company. Or try and educate your backwards run company.
Most companies that support diversity and tolerance do better anyway.
no worries, Bostonia. i mostly agreed with you. 🙂
AE,
Your suggestion doesn't address the issue, its not the company or its diversity policies, its the individuals. They get trained, but that training is insignificant in comparison to the bigoted things they were taught.
Sure, I'd probably complain about that too if it happened to me. I'm glad advancement in my career is based on performance, not personal beliefs.
AE,
It just goes back to the OP, God should be optional.
Were you forced to take an oath to God for your job?
Never, why would you ask?
We just have differing opinions. I think God is optional in our society. Sure, there are individuals that don't act or feel that way. Who cares? They aren't in charge.
That's just it, too many are in positions of power. It's not just discrimination against atheists. In fact that is fairly minor. As others have mentioned, this kind of thinking is becoming less prevalent with young people growing into those positions.
Everything always about you and how your giant majority is getting crapped on. You're a joke, man. Get offa this blog and go back to being surrounded by your holy folks who love everything you say.
His persecution complex is high, isn't it? I may have to call a waaaaambulance for him.
I have dealt with tha prejudice and bigotry many times. Just like their religion, it springs from ignorance, that we are somehow in league with satan if we aren't on "their side".
I stopped allowing it to happen, and now am outspoken.
I try to educate people on what atheism really is...it is a very, very simple concept, but poeple think it immediately comes with a bunch of other beliefs and tendencies.
Atheism is simply not believing in gods. It is not a lack of belief. That is like saying I lack cancer. It is not believing. It is not a religion, it is not a belief system. It does not require faith or anything else. All atheists are not alike, we are not evil people who steal from babies and murder random people. We are your friends, neighbors, teachers, doctors. You interact with people of varying beliefs all day long, we are just people.
Sadly, many people don't question. This makes them susceptible to being taught false things like atheists are evil, liars, etc. without having a habit of questioning.
One year, a few years back. they had a office/cube decorating contest for Christmas.
Everyone who entered decorated their area for Christmas. Just before the holiday, they came around to judge. When the got to my office, they said "where are all of the decorations?" There were none.
I replied, I am an atheist, and this is how an atheist decorates for christmas.
Everyone got very silent...
They changed it next year to seasonal, so I do decorate for the contest in seasonal themes.
I was tempted to put up some Saturnalia decorations last year, but I figured the whole Cronus eating his children thing would be misunderstood and taken out of context by the uninformed.
No problem in my workplace, either. Possibly because I work in a creative industry. I don't know. But there are plenty of atheists and agnostics to balance out the christians, and if there is any behind-the-back snarking, I haven't noticed, and it wouldn't bother me if I did, unless it threatened my job.
you never see it because of where you live – confirmation bias
The civility of this stretch of conversation is very encouraging... so I just wanted to add my thoughts.
I do not believe you can argue a person into belief. Belief is something one has to embrace from their heart.
If there was enough curiosity on both sides, and civil questioning and answering regarding one's personal belief, there would be more conversations like this on the blog without it degenerating into name calling etc.
Jesus' gospel was one of NO CONDEMNATION. That's why you'd find him in the presence of those that society and the religious (Pharisees) disdain.
obviously has major lust for Jesus – the only safe s3x and perfect man with long silky hair and a glow about his face
My company is the opposite. No religion allowed. It's an atheists dream to work there
every single mention of god should be taken out of all things gov't. no promotion of one deity above others. want to worship god? go for it - just don't expect to have your belief in an invisible sky fairy validated by the gov't. no more god in the classroom or courtroom.
Is your God the real God?
The vast majority of people think so. Many who believe in a different god than you give similar reasons, they can feel their God's presence, their scripture contains Truth, etc.
They are as certain as you are. They think you are sadly wrong. You may feel the same way about them.
I'm glad my church preaches tolerance and acceptance. With those principles, we can work with people with different and no faith. It really works.
That's highly commendable AE, but it doesn't address the question.
God is real. Yes. Could God have revealed himself differently to someone else? Yes. Does God ask for me to be certain that might understanding of God is superior to my neighbor's understanding of God? No.
How can I tell if someone is following God? I think Galatians answers that question:
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control."
Do they portray these principles in their life? If yes, I should pay attention to them.
AE
"God is real. Yes."
Belief, not fact. To say it is so, unequivicably, is evidence of delusion. When you say you have faith that it is so, faith would indicate that you do not know for certain. You have overstepped that, indicating delusion. You should see a professional about that.
AE,
Thanks, you're of a group that doesn't think their God and religion are the unique Truth. I was addressing the folks that think that their God and belief system are the unique Truth.
@Richard Cranium
Faith is complete trust or confidence is something. I have complete trust and confidence in God. I do not have faith in atheism.
So, yes, God is real. I would be dishonest if I tried to say that God is not real.
@bostontola
You're welcome.
AE
That is not true.
Do you believe in Zeus? NO?...atheist
do you believe in Ra? no? atheist.
See you have experience in being an atheist thousands of times over. It is only YOUR god you have not disbelieved.
To say I believe in god, He is real. Is the same as saying I believe in god, therefore he is real.
If you are not open to the possibility ( with a high degree of probablitty) that you are wrong, then you truly are delusional.
If I dedicated my life to Zeus or Ra, but didn't think they were real, then I would be delusional.
And plenty of evidence points to belief in God as not being delusional.
AE
You mean to say that you personally believe that God is real, where many other people personally believe that people like you are mistaken in actually believing this.
AE,
I think you have more than faith, don't you have blind faith? I have faith in a bridge I plan to cross because the engineers used proven science and design. The faith I have in all kinds of things is based on objective evidence (not proof). Your faith is not based on objective evidence, internal subjective evidence only. Internal subjective evidence is not trustworthy on its own, that has been shown time and time again.
AE
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control."
So, you judge people to be "saved" based upon their works?
@Ken
"So, you judge people to be "saved" based upon their works?"
No. I don't judge people to be "saved" or "not saved".
bostontola
I have more than faith. I have evidence. It is spiritual, it comes from God. Martin Luther King, JR testified about his relationship with God and the clear evidence God provided. It can relate with him.
bostontola
We have faith in things like bridges because we expect them to work and to continue working, but we still wouldn't be surprised if a bridge gets swept away by floodwaters, or becomes unstable after 100 years of service, right? AE has blind faith in Jesus because he expects Jesus to "work" forever. He even expects Jesus to "work" when it's demonstrated directly to him when he doesn't work. To AE, Jesus will always work, which is something that any logical person could never say about anything real with any confidence.
AE
"Saved" is one group's definition of what a Christian is, but you're still saying that a Christian can be judged by their acts, correct?
AE,
Your evidence is exactly that internal subjective evidence I mentioned. I'm not saying it is invalid, just that it is not trustworthy with no objective evidence to go with it.
Science has built our entire technological world on objective evidence. Religion is based on millennia old testimony. Science marches on passing the rigorous tests. Religion is stationary with elements of dogma failing over time.
AE
"Spiritual evidence" is about as compelling as character testimonies are in criminal law. When it comes right down to it, people trust fingerprint, DNA and video evidence way more than what the suspect's grandmother and pastor has to say about their "character" and ability to commit a crime. Similarly, a lot of us are more interested in hard evidence for God than the opinion of people who love the character.
"AE has blind faith in Jesus because he expects Jesus to "work" forever. He even expects Jesus to "work" when it's demonstrated directly to him when he doesn't work. To AE, Jesus will always work, which is something that any logical person could never say about anything real with any confidence."
Ken – Nice opinion. Not accurate, but thanks for sharing what you imagine.
""Saved" is one group's definition of what a Christian is, but you're still saying that a Christian can be judged by their acts, correct?"
Yea, what somebody does matters. If they are completely selfish and harming others, they aren't doing what Jesus asks us to do.
AE
So, someone can appear just like you described a Christian and still not actually be a "real" Christian, according to you? Interesting, so that leaves the world unable to tell whether or not anyone calling themselves a Christian actually is a Christian, according to your opinion of what a Christian actually is. Not much of a system if nobody can tell if it's actually working, eh?
As for the other post, I assume that you wouldn't be surprised if you woke up one day and realized that Christ wasn't real, or that Christianity wasn't working for you anymore? That's a level of faith a bit below that of most Christians I know who say that they could never deny Christ.
then your church teaches against the words of jesus, who said no one gets to heaven that doesn't accept Him as their lord and savior. it seems christians pick and choose what parts of the bible to follow, and what parts are outdated.
Yes, Jesus is Lord. Not me. He was big on grace, mercy and forgiveness. And loving others.
So AE
-
"The real Tom
AE aka Austin thinks he can judge others' character by reading their posts. I wonder what the kid thinks of HS, Gopher, Chad, faith, and lol??
There's no evidence for the existence of a god and none at all that shows people cannot be moral, compassionate, generous, and kind without one. There's plenty of evidence that shows believers can be hateful and ignorant.
So what good is belief?
June 15, 2013 at 11:43 am "
AE isn't Austin. Completely different style.
Yea, ironically the poster "Science" isn't very logical or reasonable.
To funny AE
June 15, 2013 at 11:43 am "
-
I change my screen name because I'm trying to have an adult conversation. Not get into a name calling and demeaning argument with someone that holds resentments and then starts accusing me of being "Chard" or "Gopher".
Are you seriously in your 50's and resort to changing a person's name from "Chad" to "Chard"?
Seriously?
WOW!
Science
What is your point? What is the context of that post that you copied and pasted?
I am not and have never posted as Chad, Austin or Topher. I've criticized people that childishly change their names to slurs, like Chard, Autism and Gopher. Yes.
Hey AE
You might want to review found it on page 5..........
Conservatives brace for `marriage revolution'
Science
"To funny AE"
I'm afraid that you are making a very poor showing... starting with the ignorant "To funny" (too), and proceeding onto your miscasting of some of the characters on these blogs. You have made these mistakes before and have been called out; yet you keep it up?!
No problem will do !
Science
I changed my name from December to AE because a couple of hostile posters kept posting derogatory and demeaning things about me and other people. They had mistook me for someone else, but lied and said they could read my IP Address. They posted h.mophobic and mean-spirited things – and I just got sick of it. Also, they changed my name to things like "Dedumber".
It sucked.
So AE is December also.
9 months ago I posted as December. And I changed my name because I was tired of the trolls accusing me of being someone else.
Get it?
Yes, I understand. I get called names all the time. I don't know why.
Hey AE
Well as the con continues aye.
Biggest CON under the sun
How shameless Christian con artists took over the GOP
by Amanda Marcotte posted on October 28, 2013 01:15AM GMT
Conservative politicians are exploiting their voters the same way some church leaders exploit believers
These words offend because....The unbelievers want to try to "hide" there sins...Simple.
The complete oath reads: "We will not lie, steal, or cheat, nor tolerate among us anyone who does, so help me God."
The only words that offend are those relating to your god. Why would you want me to swear to your god...it would make my statement moot, by invoking some deity I do not believe in.
Why do you feel the need to force others to your belief?
Medical doctors begin the Hippocratic oath with:
"I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panacea and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfill according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant:"
Throw them all in there...?
We could add the winged god, Mercury, and the god of war, Mars, and maybe Icarus, although not a god, he's pertinent.
So...would you be okay with each cadet using their own name for God in this oath?
For the Muslims to say, "So help me Allah?"
For the Asatru to say, "So help me, Odin (or Thor or Baldur, etc)"
Is it not simpler then to just leave the tag off and let each cadet keep his/her own faith?
Or do you believe that faith is only worthy when spoken out loud?
Regarding "sin" and "hiding" thereof. Too often we hear only too late where some crime against society has been forgiven and swept under the carpet via some religious confessional mechanism.
If you need the fear of a supernatural being in order to be honorable, then you are not a good or honorable person.
1 Corinthians 1:18
[ The Wisdom of God ] For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Or, the word of the cross is just plain foolishness, and Paul was just trying to explain away the Christian failure to appeal to logical Greek thinkers?
“Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.”
Thomas Jefferson
So the book that tells you to believe something tells you that you are a fool for not believing what it says? And you fell for that?
How was your Sunday? Well-churched? Remember that if there is a God out there, it's not the God you believe in. And it hasn't indicated that it cares for or about your worship. Its body isn't in what you ate or drank. It did not die for your sins.
1 Corinthians 1:18
[ The Wisdom of God ] For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Not churched at all, thank you. The thought of it brings out old memories of cloying perfume and asthma, uncomfortable shoes, and boredom beyond all reason.
I spent quality time drawing horses on the margins of the programs. Church was excruciating. Sunday school was better, because they had those boards to which they stuck felt cut-outs of Jesus and various apostles in order to illustrate their stories. I still want one of those boards.
Okay people, here's the scenario. Please give me your honest answers::::
Imagine that there is a box that has proof that there are no gods and no afterlife.
Proof so concrete that there would be no way for you to deny it. That there are no gods at all and never were.
Question: Would you open the box or prefer to not know for sure that there was no afterlife and no gods?
Would you prefer your comfort zone of not knowing for sure,
or would you want to know you only had the life you have now with no hope of continuance?
I seek what is...having preconceptions of what one might find can cause bias in what you see or think you see.
Proof one way or another does not change with my opinion. Reality does not chnage simply because I choose to ignore it or not. Reality is reality, and it is only by knowing waht is from what isn't do we advance knowledge.
You are evading the question. Why? Are you that scared of it?
I did not evade the question. I answered it directly. Perhaps you should word your question better.
Bullshit. You have not said whether you would open the box or prefer to not know for sure.
I said I seek what is, therefore you should have concluded I would open the box. Do I need to lead you in the steps needed to open the box, or can you infer from what was said?
Not giving a direct and clear answer to the question is a form of evasion. So you are not afraid of having the one life and no afterlife of any kind? Do you enjoy not knowing for sure now at this moment in time or are you seeking answers?
My answer was direct, and if it were my peers, would also have been clear. I will refrain from using big words when dealing with you in the future.
Yes I would open the box, since I want to know what actually is.
In reality, I have opened many such boxes, finding information mankind did not yet have.
Do you know what a scientist does when he discovers something and has positive results to some theory or bosy of work he is working on?
He gives it to the scientific community so that they can either confirm it, or find the flaws in it. That is a box I have handed my colleagues many times, and they have handed me the box as well. We always open it, we try to find flaw in the work so that it may be discarded as false, or verified as true.
Now...what is the purpose of your question? Show me an example of how to answer the question directly and clearly....Why do you pose the question?
Diogenes
You are evading the question. Why are you afraid of it?
I'm just taking a poll. Or trying to, at least. I was off to a wobbly start, wasn't I? Thank you again.
Okay. I see what happened here. My fault. Thank you for answering. I'm just taking a poll here and want to be as sure as possible that your answers are not some type of doublespeak. I tend to be skeptical as a matter of course of everything and often find myself talking to elliptical trolls. My apologies.
Please open the box and tell everyone.
No, that's not a correct form of answering. Please stop avoiding the question and give an honest answer or else gtfo.
How is this answer not clear? You're being an argumentative twit.
Yeah, I would open the box. Is this answer clear enough to understand? Now, gtfo.
Thank you, angry person.
Says the guys who called bs on answers because he didn't like them and doesn't like it when someone else quotes his gtfo.
Thank you for your angry opinion, angry person. I was angry, yes. Thank you again.
Not angry at all. Just giving you a dose of your own condescension. Grow up.
You need to grow thicker skin. I am fine with what I said because I have grown past it. I suggest you do the same.
Yes. I would open the box. I seek the truth. I have yet to see any kind of box like that though.
Thank you. As you can see, yours is the only honest and clear answer so far.
Correction: Yours is the second. But I like the way you said it better. Very concise.
You do not get to decide which answer is honest. You can choose what you like and don't like, but you do not get to decide the honesty of the person who responds. You are not that important.
Yes, we all make mistakes, don't we? Thank you for stopping by.
Thank you for stopping by as well, diogenes. This is not your playground. You are a visitor here, just like everybody else.
I'm an atheist, I'd open the box regardless of which way the truth went. Whavever is real is what we should live our lives by. Which is why I'm an atheist, everything I've seen and learned, and all my investigation into the Bible and other religions, provides no evidence of any god. If that changes, my opinions change.
Thank you.
OMG! He's thanking you because he just sucked up your soul!!! 😯
😈
💡
HEY!
👿
➡
👿
All right, Diogenes. I want to to know the truth if there is one. I want everyone else to know it whether they want to know it or not. I would open the box without hesitation.
Thank you for your answer.
As far as I'm concerned, I've already opened the box. If proof surfaces that gods are real, of course I will reassess that conclusion, but until that time I will continue to believe that my existence will end when this body is no longer compatible with life.
Thank you for your answer.
There is no such box. foolish scenario.
No, sorry, but you'll have to play along and imagine the scenario to be real. It's just a poll. You don't have to be here, do you?
Are you going to take the poll?
Thank you for stopping by...
Only special Birdbrain's get to say the f word and p rk and scut and that stuff. But this dump ain't hacked and snake ain't going to prison. I promise!
I also lost my fireman hubby on 9/11. That birdbrain
I see you are stealing the 9/11 widow's name again, you excretable little bitch. Hope you're happy with your nasty self. God won't be. You have NO shame at all, do you?
Speaking of your garbage:
Karie called Bible Clown a “disgusting, deviant perverted virus,” and a “Bozo,” before ending with this prediction:
“Hell is coming for you love. Special dungeon just for u and u won’t be able to die. LOL.LOL.”
Your various troll names:
doc zzzz
Doc Vegetable Lasagna
Observer (obviously hijacked)
bananas
bo
ploj
pas
dodo murdock
lulu
bootyfunk (stolen)
slappy
love
tt
point being
louie
cherrie
prophet
Dr E
kati
sam tone
blessed
Meredith S. (Stolen from a 9/11 widow!!
doodoo
bingo
wary
alaqeada
sam stone (stolen)
al
observer
sammy
karie
bethany
barry
blake
faith
hharri
charlie
terry
mary
yudhisthira mahabharata jr
eddie
tex
dewie
Pharisee DM
DODO
perdy
greg
And you are going to sue people when YOU steal on a regular basis and make fun of this woman's pain? You are without excuse. You're mean, nasty, petty, and totally lack empathy. And you do it all in the name of God. For shame.
why do you bother responding to the troll?
It amuses me. Why do you? I notice that you respond to her a lot also; I have to conclude that you find her as amusing as I do.
I am disgusted by this lying worthless troll. I lost my entire family in a deadly fishing mishap on the Nile when I was translating for horus
I see I have to add to the list:
laststonecarver (stolen)
doc zzzz
Doc Vegetable Lasagna
Observer (obviously hijacked)
bananas
bo
ploj
pas
dodo murdock
lulu
bootyfunk (stolen)
slappy
love
tt
point being
louie
cherrie
prophet
Dr E
kati
sam tone
blessed
Meredith S. (Stolen from a 9/11 widow!!
doodoo
bingo
wary
alaqeada
sam stone (stolen)
al
observer
sammy
karie
bethany
barry
blake
faith
hharri
charlie
terry
mary
yudhisthira mahabharata jr
eddie
tex
dewie
Pharisee DM
DODO
perdy
greg
God exists if u r a delusion moron like jimmy carter
They steal my ideas.
Me know what you mean. I took fire from fire on mountain. Big rocks there. Now everyone have fire. Me mad too.
That's y I hate atheists. They think stuff began or science will show us how it got here. Truth is, god never began so he can't be existed. I said so.
Except, I am most likely god because I never did anything in my whole life except hack this dump.
Which god?
“In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.”
“By the fig and the olive.
Mount Sinai.
And this honored town (Mecca).”* 95:1-3
*95:1-3 The fig, olive, Sinai and Mecca possibly symbolize Adam, Jesus, Moses, Abraham and Muhammad, respectively. Thus, all major religions are represented.
“We created man in the best design.
Then turned him into the lowliest of the lowly.
Except those who believe and lead a righteous life; they receive a reward that is well deserved.
Why do you still reject the faith?
Is God not the Most Wise, of all the wise ones?” 95:4-8
“The example of Jesus, as far as GOD is concerned, is the same as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be," and he was.” Quran [3:59]
“It does not befit God that He begets a son, be He glorified. To have anything done, He simply says to it, "Be," and it is.” [19:35]
“No soul can carry the sins of another soul. If a soul that is loaded with sins implores another to bear part of its load, no other soul can carry any part of it, even if they were related. ... [35:18]
“They even attribute to Him sons and daughters, without any knowledge. Be He glorified. He is the Most High, far above their claims.” Quran [6:100]
“Recall that your Lord said to the angels, "I am placing a representative on Earth." They said, "Will You place therein one who will spread evil therein and shed blood, while we sing Your praises, glorify You, and uphold Your absolute authority?" He said, "I know what you do not know." [2:30]
“They say , "We live only this life; we will not be resurrected. If you could only see them when they stand before their Lord! He would say, "Is this not the truth?" They would say, "Yes, by our Lord." He would say, "You have incurred the retribution by your disbelief." [6:30]
Thanks for taking time to read my post. Please take a moment to visit whyIslam org website.
Islam is a corrupt and false religion, just like all the others. Try visiting reality.
@Universe,
Here is a deal. I will visit your recommended web site if you will visit godisimaginary.com. Granted, it mainly addresses Christianity, but it applies to your fantasies also.
Report all trolls to the troll chairman. She zaps them basdboys good.
Or she puts all their posts on a new page to make it easier to destroy others rights to speak freely