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 The Air Force Academy has made a big change to its honor code to reflect religious diversity.
October 25th, 2013
05:11 PM ET
Air Force makes 'God' optional in honor codeBy Emily Smith, CNN (CNN) - The U.S. Air Force Academy has decided to make phrase "so help me God" optional in its honor code after an activist group protested that requiring all cadets to recite it violates their rights. The complete oath reads: "We will not lie, steal, or cheat, nor tolerate among us anyone who does, so help me God." Cadets are required to recite the oath when they complete basic training. It is also taken by the entire cadet wing each year as re-affirmation of their commitment to the honor code, said AFA spokesman Major Brus Vidal. The Military for Religious Freedom Foundation, a watchdog group that has waged repeated battle with the armed services, took issue with the last clause of the sentence, saying that no cadets should be forced to make a promise to God. After the complaint was filed by MRFF, the Air Force Academy Honor Review Committee met for an in-depth discussion regarding the oath. On Friday, the AFA released a statement saying they had decided to make the final clause of the honor oath optional. The AFA statement read, in part, “Here at the Academy, we world to build a culture of dignity and respect, and that respect includes the ability of our cadets, Airmen and civilian Airmen to freely practice and exercise their religious preference –- or not.” "The fact that the oath is optional will be communicated in honor lessons, leadership lessons, and religious respect lessons during the summer (cadet basic military training) so all trainees will understand prior to taking the Cadet Honor Oath that the final clause will be completely optional," said Vidal. "The person administering the oath, who is the cadet wing honor chair has the option to say or not say 'so help me god," so this might vary from year to year," Vidal continued. MORE ON CNN: Air Force: Bible and nukes don't mix Mikey Weinstein, MRFF's founder and president, said he would sue the academy on behalf of his clients if the words were still left at the end of the oath, even if repeating them was optional. “If the words are still there and you don’t say [them] you turn yourself into a tarantula on a wedding cake,” he said. MRFF has taken issue with the Air Force before. In 2011, the group complained about an Air Force training presentation that used religion to teach the ethics and morality of using nuclear weapons. That same year, CNN learned that the Air Force was using religious tenets such as the Ten Commandments to teach core values to ROTC cadets. MORE ON CNN: Air Force's use of Christian messages extends to ROTC
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Name stealer ^^^
LOL. One person complained and CNN writes an entire article about it. It is easy to see that CNN does not like Christians!
What are you talking about?
You think the Air Force made this change because one person complained?
reiz45,
Your comment was ridiculous. Get serious.
Oh, Reiz, if you haven't been following the Air Force Academy religion scandals over the last 15 years you'd be better advised to do some research than to post you ignorance in public.
Considering that the USAF has been the least religiously tolerant branch of the service since its inception, I am glad to see that people have been publicly taking it on. Considering that upon enlistment, the recruit is given the option of taking an oath "in the name of God" or a vow that does not mention a deity since before I enlisted over 33 years ago, the USAFA has been sadly behind the times. For the record, I took the Oath when I joined up, not the secular Vow.
It really is bizarre that you would ask people to reference a god they don't believe in in an honor code.
It's not bizarre. It's schizophrenia. It's also very commonplace. They reveal their insanity and rarely know it or care.
It's not actually schizophrenia (a very serious mental llness), but viewing this as non-contradictory is likely somewhat delusional. And yeah, people with delusions don't know it.
By the way, I see many Atheists attributing certain beliefs to all Theists. Please understand, that just because people believe in God, their understanding of the purpose of life, the role of the Creator, the nature of man, the future of mankind, etc may be very different.
Someone chided me because religious clergy have done bad things to children. We don't even have clergy in the Baha'i Faith.
Someone asked how I can believe Jesus is God. We don't accept the Nicene version of the Trinity in the Baha'i Faith.
Someone asked me how my God can send people to a lake of fire because they didn't accept Him, or were followers of some other religion. We don't believe in a lake of fire in the Baha'i Faith. We don't believe in physical resurrection either. We ARE another religion, and we believe all the major world faiths are from the one same God to whom we all pray. In addition, we are told no one should follow a religion simply because it is the faith of their fathers. God gave mankind a brain and an intellect for a reason, and we are supposed to use it, investigate religion and philosophy, and come to our own conclusions.
I have great respect for people of all faiths, and I have great respect for anyone who has searched and come to the conclusion he cannot (yet) accept the existence of a Creator. But please take the time to understand the different faith traditions and to truly reflect on their teachings.
@Kimberlee,
no offence, but your post is yet another "my religion isbetter than your religion" argument – like all the religious do.
Why are there so many religions – none of which can agree on the details?
Thanks for your reply! I need to clarify that for us, all religions are one. We believe in a concept called progressive revelation, that God sends messengers to mankind from time to time, and place to place, to give us guidance. So, we cannot believe one religion is better than another! One God, One Faith, One Mankind
It is through man's "interference" that so religions get divided and multiplied. Jesus clearly asks all his followers to love one another so much that they would be recognized as his followers; yet within a few centuries, they disagreed over doctrine, dogma, theology, etc. The same for all the major world faiths. If we look at the inner spiritual teachings of them all, they are not in conflict at all.
So basically it is just a matter of time until your religion gets divided and multiplies via man's 'interference'
Sorry your just another emperor with "new" clothes.
Brother Maynard, thanks for your concern..:))) We have the benefit of being a "modern" revelation (late 1800s) and of having a prophet founder who, though a prisoner for 40 years, was able to write quite a bit either in his own hand or by dictation which has been retained in the original. Yes, there is no guarantee against attempts at splintering anytime human egos are involved, but we do have a line of authority which older faiths did not, which II personally hope will, if not totally eliminate, at least slow down the process.
Let me comment: we believe revelation comes again and again to renew faith and deal with contemporary issues, and that this will continue. So, maybe in a thousand years or so, there will be another prophet and another revelation, to get us back on track from wherever we have wandered by then.
"but we do have a line of authority which older faiths did not,"
to place this squarely in southern terms........................"THEM FIGHTEN WORDS"
each sect of every religion in the world believes themselves to "be the only authority"; however each can no more prove themselves correct than the rest.
basically any other religious based person reading your statement above could take huge offense to it.
WASP, Whoa! I'm a lover not a fighter...:)) I'm sorry for the confusion. I wasn't referring to the line of authority "from God" which every religion would claim; just to an internal one. It went by will and testament from our founder, to his son, to his grandson; shortly after then we were in a position by number and spread of our believers to start an elected administration on an international level, which oversees the affairs of our faith today. We have no priests or clergy or individuals who administer in our faith; only committees (we call them assemblies) elected annually at the local and national levels, and then an international one elected every 5 years. Our international headquarters is in Haifa, Israel, on the slopes of Mt Carmel, not far from where our founder was sent as a prisoner back in the 1800s. So sorry for the confusion!
"individuals who administer in our faith; only committees"
ok so what's the difference between your "elected" leadership and those of the vatican and so forth?
it's still a higherarchie that administers their view of what the religion's goals and path is.
religious leaders are still human,still flawed and still prone to being self serving. those that put themselves out there as "the chosen by any creator" have you ever asked what their personal goal is? how about if they become religious leaders not for you,but for the simple fact to feed their own narsositic personalities?
one of the greatest sayings i've ever heard was " everything works perfectly, until you add in the human factor"
"Thanks for your reply! I need to clarify that for us, all religions are one."
You are very welcome and sure, I'll stipulate that at an elemental level, the notion that "if you are "good" you will get a reward when you die" is essentially true for all religions. But to me is little different than the "All I Really Need to Know I Learned in Kindergarten" parable that along with corporate speaking gigs made Robert Fulghum a mint of money.
1. Share everything.
2. Play fair.
3. Don't hit people.
4. Put things back where you found them.
etc
Beyond the basic "be excellent to one another" (from the Gospel of Bill and Ted), even coupled with the notion of progressive revelation, it is the differences amongst religions which are the strongest dividing forces in the world.
Out of my genuine interest, as an adherent of progressive revalation are you looking forward to the next prophet?
kimberlee, I understand that the Bahai ' faith is a gentle and sincere faith,and it is evident in your post. I can scence you gentle faith and understanding that the disparity of peoples and their environs and life experiences make for diversity.All people can't relate to each others perspectives or faiths.but we can relate to kindness.
Kindness to all is the key. Thanks for your kind reply!
Ah, yes, and you think if you kindly and sympathetically guide hom.ose.xuals to the doctors office they can be cured. Another charming religion with sacred texts that can't be wrong when new science shows up. You may be more modern and so look more enlightened, but as long as you believe in prophets with infallible truths you are essentially the same.
Hi Kimberly,
As I posted on your post to me on the previous page, painting with too broad a brush is a problem. But then atheists are often attacked for just going after Christians and not other religions, so then some of us use the more generic term "theists" when possible. There are some 33,000 different versions of CHristianity, and within each of those versions many varying opinions. Bottom line is it is almost impossible to not generalize too much when it comes to religious belief. But you mostly share one thing in common, you make claims you cannot demonstrate, such as that all theists are generally praying to the same god. I have to admit after reading some of your post I find it humorous that you have a problem with generalization....in this case anyway.
Blessed, I appreciate your comment! What I meant by "generalization" is that, while the Baha'i Faith shares much with our Christian brothers and sisters as far as love of Christ and his teachings, we differ in the "doctrine and dogma" areas which are so often where Atheists express their frustration with organized religion. Believe me, I've been there and done that myself. It was why I couldn't bring myself to join a church in my youth. I love Jesus; I love the message of the Gospels; but I couldn't accept as logical some of the doctrines of the churches. Hope you are having a great week!
Meredith S, nice to meet you! It's not my place to tell someone else what to think or believe; I'm simply sharing my beliefs, as others are here. My comments are always sincerely given; but if others don't want to take me seriously, that is their right, and I respect it! Hope you have a great day.
Blessed,
what I like most about the message of Jesus is his trying to keep us sincerely focused on our own spiritual path, not to live for this material world; and not to be a hypocrite or judge others. It all comes under his "great commandments" (love God with all your heart, soul, mind; love your neighbor as yourself), but he gave specific guidance in these areas.
Here is a link to some of the offensive and unscientific Baha'i beliefs on hom.ose.xuality, including how it is evil and can be overcome with a doctor's help.
http://bahai-library.com/compilation_reini_hom*ose*xuality#v
Remove the asterisks to view.
Kimberly,
Jesus had some good things to say, he also had some bad advice and proposed immoral concepts. I take issue with anyone claiming he was divine or divinely inspired, including him.
If you want to read a response to the Sermon on the Mount you might find interesting it can be found here.
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?ti*tle=Sermon_on_the_Mount
take out the asterick
Blessed are the Cheese makers: I for one am THRILLED that as an atheist you "get it". Not all of us theists ARE praying to the same god or goddess for that matter. I'm for individualization not categorization as I'm not even the same "religion" all the time. I'm a person first, then a stockpile of unsubstantiated claims later.
But seriously as to my claims I'll be the first to admit where I do and do not have proof. It doesn't mean I don't want to still indulge.
Reflecting on the religious traditions- a summary
• As far as one knows or can tell, there was no Abraham i.e. the foundations of Judaism, Christianity and Islam are non-existent.
• As far as one knows or can tell, there was no Moses i.e the pillars of Judaism, Christianity and Islam have no strength of purpose.
• There was no Gabriel i.e. Islam fails as a religion. Christianity partially fails.
• There was no Easter i.e. Christianity completely fails as a religion.
• There was no Moroni i.e. Mormonism is nothing more than a business cult.
• Sacred/revered cows, monkey gods, castes, reincarnations and therefore Hinduism fails as a religion.
• Fat Buddhas here, skinny Buddhas there, reincarnated/reborn Buddhas everywhere makes for a no on Buddhism.
• A constant cycle of reincarnation until enlightenment is reached and belief that various beings (angels?, tinkerbells? etc) exist that we, as mortals, cannot comprehend makes for a no on Sikhism.
(Bahaism- regurgitated Islam by the "great Babs"- makes for a quick no)
Added details are available upon written request.
Reality #2, hello! Very interesting summary!
But what does it matter if these people existed or not? It is the message that is important.
If some Atheist named Jane Smith has an inspiration one day and develops a statement of Atheistic moral creed that eventually millions of people then decide to follow, what does it matter if millenia later, someone challenges that Jane Smith ever existed? It is the teaching that matters, not whether there was a historical Adam or a historical Moses or a historical Abraham or a historical Buddha.
Outside the issue of doctrine and dogma, what harm do you see in people following teachings such as "Do not to others what ye do not wish done to yourself; and wish for others too what ye desire and long for, for yourselves" (Hinduism), "Love thy neighbor as thyself" (Judaism), "Make thine own self the measure of the others, and so abstain from causing hurt to them" (Buddhism), "All ye would that men should do to you, do ye likewise to them also" (Christianity), "None of you truly believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself" (Islam), or "Choose thou for thy neighbor what thou choosest for thyself." (Baha'i)
"what harm do you see in people following teachings"
the harm is when those "followers" take it upon themselves to "spread the word".................through any means necessary.
planning to hide doctrine in laws, fighting against "non-believers", attempting to indoctrinate children under the guise of "education" i.e. "creationisT propanganda" taught in science as "fact".
let's not even get into the violence and discrimination those followers are prone to against those not of their group.
so yes i would say there is great harm in religion.
i have a riddle for you; if every human on earth had the same scienctific view of humanity, that we are merely an evolved form of an earlier animal what would the israeli and palistinians have to fight over? what "teachings" would tell one child they are better than another child due to how they appear on the surface?
WASP, great comments and extremely valid! But the "harms" you mention are not from the teachings of the Golden Rule, rather, they are from man's ego, man's greed, man's violence, etc, all opposite to what the Golden Rule teaches. One of the Baha'i principles is that peace is not achievable until people truly accept the unity of mankind, i.e., that we are all brothers and sisters no matter our color, creed, economic status etc. Another is that even though we raise our children to know our beliefs, they need to do their own investigation as they mature and find their own spiritual path. We try to develop qualities in them, like detachment, peacefulness, kindliness, courtesy. No guarantee that as adults they won't choose a different path, but each person has free will. We believe that if people will sincerely teach their children to love their fellow man and to seek peaceful ways, the world can change into a better place for all.
Kimberllee,
What do you mean by "free will"? Are you referring to freedom from external constraint or some sort of libertarian freedom from causality?
From the Koran:
http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/005.asp et al
o "Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)
o
"Believers, when you encounter the infidels (to include now Bahaists) on the march, do not turn your backs to them in flight. If anyone on that day turns his back to them, except it be for tactical reasons...he shall incur the wrath of God and Hell shall be his home..." (Surah 8:12-)
"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)
"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." (Surah 9:12-)
"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)
"It is He who has sent forth His apostle with guidance and the true Faith [Islam] to make it triumphant over all religions, however much the idolaters [non-Muslims] may dislike it." (Surah 9:31-)
"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)
"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)
"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)
"Say: 'Praise be to God who has never begotten a son; who has no partner in His Kingdom..." (Surah 17:111)
"'How shall I bear a child,' she [Mary] answered, 'when I am a virgin...?' 'Such is the will of the Lord,' he replied. 'That is no difficult thing for Him...God forbid that He [God[ Himself should beget a son!...Those who say: 'The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a monstrous falsehood..." (Surah 19:12-, 29-, 88)
"Fight for the cause of God with the devotion due to Him...He has given you the name of Muslims..." (Surah 22:78-)
"Blessed are the believers...who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave-girls, for these are lawful to them)...These are the heirs of Paradise..." (Surah 23:1-5-)
"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)
"Shall the reward of goodness be anything but good?...Dark-eyed virgins sheltered in their tents...They shall recline on green cushions and fine carpets...Blessed be the name of your Lord..." (Surah 55:52-66-)
As noted many times:
Recognizing the flaws, follies and frauds in the foundations of Islam, Judaism and Christianity, the "bowers", kneelers" and "pew peasants" are converging these religions into some simple rules of life (Do No Harm). No koran, bible, clerics, nuns, monks, imams, evangelicals, ayatollahs, rabbis, professors of religion, the Great Babs hallucinations or priests needed or desired.
Ditto for houses of "worthless worship" aka mosques, churches, basilicas, cathedrals, temples (including the Baha'i temple in Israel) and synagogues.
The message is what is important – if it is true.
But the issue is when we are talking about things that appear to be false. And some of which are quite harmful if they are false.
If I'm at the grand canyon, and I tell people about this cool invisible platform that lets you stand out, midair, and see into the canyon – that is a very good teaching – if it is true. A very destructive one if it is false.
@Susan StoHelit:
" I tell people about this cool invisible platform that lets you stand out, midair, and see into the canyon – that is a very good teaching – if it is true. A very destructive one if it is false."
see there is a very easy way to tell if you are being truthful or not............................... have you walk out on to that invisible platform first. if you say it is real and then fall into the grand canyon, we can easily see if it is fact or not.
Kimberlee
It's nice that you believe in a god that's a nice guy, and not the nasty Christian God. Now, assuming that your god is still some supernatural force doing something out there in the universe, how do you know that he's real and are there any logical reasons why we should think that he's real as well, or do we lump you together with Christian believers who just "feel" that their god just has to be real?
Kimberlee,
Please expand on the formal Baha'i position that hom.ose.xuality is immoral, abnormal and harmful. Yes, we know Bahai'i, like Mormonism and Catholicism, teach openness and sympathy towards these sinners, but please explain whether the Baha'i position is any different.
When I asked this a couple of days ago Kimberllee immediately disappeared...seems to have happened again. I think we need to ask this every time she shows up until we get an answer.
Don't expect an answer from hypocritical religious loons.
a. Real
b. Not real
c. Your cat
d. All of the above
e. None of the above
Hello all! Hope all are having a good evening!
1. Assume the Universe is "all there is" and its "order and perfection" are due to Nature and its laws, not to Divine presence or intervention
2. Assume that man himself is an exigency of nature; that nature rules and governs creation; and that all existing things are captives of nature.
3. How is it that man, who is a part of the Universe, is possessed of certain qualities whereof nature is devoid?
4. Man has intellect which allows him to explore the Universe, discover its laws, and devise ways to use and redirect them. Man has volition; the earth can't choose not to revolve around the sun. Man is fortified with memory
5. All arts and sciences were once hidden secrets of nature; man reveals them
6. Is it logical that man has abilities which Nature does not?
7. "It is evident, therefore, that man is dual in aspect: as an animal he is subject to nature, but in his spiritual or conscious being he transcends the world of material existence. His spiritual powers, being nobler and higher, possess virtues of which nature intrinsically has no evidence..."
8. "Man, the creature, has volition and certain virtues. Is it possible that his Creator is deprived of these?"
9. So there is a Creator.
Poorly paraphrased from The Promulgation of Universal Peace (see http://www.bahai.org)
Personally, I don't buy 3, so it just doesn't work for me.
Tom, Tom, the Other One, hello! Thanks for your comment.
Items 4 and 5 are examples of what 3 is saying.
Elephants have remarkable memories. There are plenty of other species with high intelligence sufficient to engage in problem solving. Corvids have a sense of humor.
Alligators wound up with a better immune system than humans.
I agree with Tom, I'm not on board with #3, for the simple reason that I don't think we are the only sentient creatures on this planet. For example, are whale songs art? I find this viewpoint of man being separate from nature, or in anyway special or unique to be anthropocentric. Even though I respect your beliefs, there is still this air of superiority of the Abrahamic tradition that man is somehow different than the rest of life and therefore are destined for it's mastery.
Please don't misunderstand me. I appreciate all the qualities of all members of the animal kingdom! There is much we can learn from and love about our fellow animals, and we have an obligation to care for them and protect them and the environment, so we can all share our earth together! But we have yet to see an animal other than mankind break away from Nature's laws. The elephants and whales, who are among my favorite animals in the world, have yet to develop civilizations outside the limits of their own ecosystems. Something in the intellect and spirit of mankind is different from his fellow animals.
" spirit of mankind" we are simply animals, that's all.
classification of "humans"
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Subphylum: Vertebrata
Class: Mammalia
Subclass: Theria
Infraclass: Eutheria
Order: PRIMATES
Suborder: Anthropoidea
Superfamily: Hominoidea
Family: Hominidae
Genus: H0m0
Species: sapiens
we are simply an evolved form of PRIMATE; everything that humans believe to make ourselves "special" doesn't truly exsist.
Kimberlee
We probably are the most intelligent life forms on this planet, but why would that have to mean anything more than the fact that we're the highest species on some intelligence graph, with other primates and dolphins just a tad bit lower on the scale?
Along with that intelligence we also have a huge amount of imagination, right? Why do you assume that we aren't just imagining that we are so vastly different from other animals, imagining that we have "spirits", and imagining that some great "spirit", like us but even greater, isn't out there looking at us like we look at other animals? Where can you say that our imaginations aren't the origin of all religious feelings?
Humans don't break away from nature's laws. Every form of science we have utilizes our knowledge of nature to help us learn more to make our lives better. We are still bound by the same laws as the rest of nature and always will be. All technology we have follows nature's laws, it doesn't defy nature or physics to explore, learn and implement technology based on it.
No 3 doesn't work for me either. If you're stating that nature is all there is then humans, being a part of nature, would bring whatever attributes they have into "nature" set. You wouldn't be able to separate our attributes from those of any other part of nature. What's more, it implies that some of our attributes are better than the attributes of other parts of nature.
People have always dreamed of being able to fly all by themselves, for example. So, why not hold that birds, bats, and some insects occupy a superior place above the Nature which includes things that do not naturally fly, of which we are a part? We perceive that we have superior intelligence, so our God also has superior intelligence, and intelligence is the dividing line between "us" and nature. One supposes that, if birds had gods, their gods would have wings as well, and they would separate themselves from "lower" creatures that cannot fly, wouldn't you say?
I think her problem here is a failure to define terms which means she (or the original source) ends up using the same word in multiple ways, breaking any logical argument. What is "nature"? The "universe"? You can argue anything if you use slippery terms without definitions.
The conclusion "there is a creator" does not follow from any of these points, nor from the collection of them taken together.
How very silly. That's a lot of assumptions in one post. Until those assumptions can be validated as fact, then all we have is a very biased opinion.
Thanks for your comment! The first two are stated as assumptions but are basically the position of atheists and materialists. The following statements are to show that something about those assumptions doesn't make sense. Obviously, you may not agree; but it is something to think about. How can Nature be our "creator" when we can bend its rules and fly into space without wings, extract energy from the atom, and reproduce ourselves outside our own bodies. Just a thought. Have a great day!
It sounds like you have a limited understanding of science. In fact, I'm not certain you aren't a poe. Anyway, we can "fly into space without wings, extract energy from the atom, and reproduce ourselves outside our own bodies" because we understand the laws of nature and physics and can use those rules to create mechanisms and processes that allow us these achievements. There are no miracles, just an thorough understanding of the way things work.
I don't understand how anyone can reach adulthood and still not have any clue about science. You're using a computer and the internet, therefore education is available to you. There is no excuse for ignorance.
tallulah13, actually I'm not only familiar with science, I have a degree in engineering. Perhaps I was speaking "poetically" but the point is the same: by man's intellect, he uses the laws of nature to go beyond what would otherwise be his own natural limitations.
What benefit do you think you gain from sounding ignorant? You have chosen to believe something that has not been proven. The accomplishments you named were done by human minds and hands. No mystery there, just intelligence, hard work and courage.
Your god, on the other hand, is just one of many gods. It was created in man's image, reflects the morals of the culture that invented it, and goes no further than believers take it. If science cannot sway you, you should study history. It becomes obvious that gods are the tools of humans, not the other way around.
Just noting that we have another engineer for anyone who's still tracking that conversation. It does seem that engineers have a much higher level of religiosity than scientists. I would love to see any data if its out there.
Nothing personal to you, Kimberlee. this relates to a prior conversation in which we reflected on the large number of Christians on this site who call themselves scientists and almost always turn out to be engineers. You did not do that, but pointed to a familiarity with science, which is very different and should be true in most engineering (and medical) fields.
Perhaps you have heard of photosynthesis? Millions of organisms extract energy from the sun to live. That isn't breaking any laws of nature by duplicating it via technology. Creatures with wings can't explore space. We utilize technology to do that, we aren't breaking any laws of nature. That's like saying that a Beaver is breaking laws of nature by building a dam and altering the flow of a river.
I have a much shorter list.
1) Humans have worshiped literally thousands of gods
2) There is no evidence that even one of them exists
3) Therefore it is not rational to believe that any gods exist.
makes sense to me
tallulah, howdy! Yes, but the opposite is also possible:
1) Humans have worshiped gods
2) There is no evidence they do not exist
3) Therefore it is not rational to believe there is no god
Kimberlee,
What else do you believe in that has no evidence?
- Leprechauns guard a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow?
- Fairies and hobgoblins frolic all over the place?
- A banshee wailing means someone has died?
- There is no evidence they do not exist
- Therefore it is not rational to believe there are no leprechauns, fairies, hobgoblins and banshees, and you should behave as if the stories are true...?
Well, Kimberlee, you can believe in whatever you want. It doesn't make it real, and it doesn't make your belief rational. Wishful thinking is not proof of god.
tallulah 13,
I have no problem with there being no rational proof of God. I do believe there are rational arguments, but after that, it really becomes a matter of faith. It was only a short time ago that we ourselves had no knowledge of either the "micro-world" (all the living things that are smaller than our eyes can detect but which live in and around us all the time) or the "macro-world" (the gazillions of galaxies beyond our own), yet some people conjectured their existence without rational proof.
Fan2C,
What counts as "evidence" is a very subjective thing. People who believe in god take their personal experience as "evidence" just as you would take your personal experience of headache and seeing auras as evidence of a migraine. You may not consider it good evidence, and it may be easily explained other ways, but you can't say it isn't evidence.
Once you look at "little evidence" we face all sorts of questions. How do you know anyone but you has consciousness? That there is an external world? That you existed 30 seconds ago and don't have newly formed memories? Many would say you assume so on very little evidence.
tallulah, We don't have "proof" of the existence of anything except, if you buy Descartes logic, ourselves. Proofs don't work that way...all we have is evidence.
Fan2C,
Santa Claus and the Easter bunny were always high on my list...:))))
Sara, good comment. And when it comes to spiritual issues, the proof for many is personal to them. I had my own spiritual experience as an 18 year old, but it was personal to me and of no meaning to anyone else. From that experience, I changed from someone who wasn't sure about what I believed, to someone who was. The "proof" was from "inside" me.
Kimberlee, Agree, except that it's evidence, not proof, which is perhaps why you included it in quotes. Better to stick to the correct terms, though.
Could you please answer some of the questions I have posted you regarding the Baha'i position that hom.ose.xuality is an evil and gay folks to receive sympathy and cures from doctors?
Kimberlee, thank you for raising the level of discussion to an interesting and enjoyable level. I much enjoy honest thought and sincere posts.
But there's a difference between leprechauns and God.
Spiritual experience is code for brain stroke.
You're all bonkers and the sooner this religious insanity goes away the better for humanity.
Pretty much every point from 3 to 9 are nonsense. They're based either on false premises or are just plain incoherent messes.
Hello all! Hope all are having a good evening!
1. Assume the Universe is "all there is" and its "order and perfection" are due to Nature and its laws, not to Divine presence or intervention
This is a big assumption to begin with. Is the universe all that there is? Or is it all that we are capable of perceiving? Is there "order and perfection" or do we apply the concepts of order and perfection on a savage and imperfect nature?
2. Assume that man himself is an exigency of nature; that nature rules and governs creation; and that all existing things are captives of nature.
Man is an urgent need of nature? What does it mean to be a captive of nature?
3. How is it that man, who is a part of the Universe, is possessed of certain qualities whereof nature is devoid?
Man is a part of nature, therefore can not be anything that is not of nature.
4. Man has intellect which allows him to explore the Universe, discover its laws, and devise ways to use and redirect them. Man has volition; the earth can't choose not to revolve around the sun. Man is fortified with memory
Man is not alone in intellect. Many birds and animals have given evidence of intelligence and memory.
5. All arts and sciences were once hidden secrets of nature; man reveals them
Have you ever heard a whale sing? When it comes to art, man does not have the market cornered.
6. Is it logical that man has abilities which Nature does not?
We don't.
7. "It is evident, therefore, that man is dual in aspect: as an animal he is subject to nature, but in his spiritual or conscious being he transcends the world of material existence. His spiritual powers, being nobler and higher, possess virtues of which nature intrinsically has no evidence..."
8. "Man, the creature, has volition and certain virtues. Is it possible that his Creator is deprived of these?"
9. So there is a Creator.
Seeing as your assumptions can be shown false, your conclusion is incorrect.
" certain qualities whereof nature is devoid?"
the only quality that humans possess that other creatures on this world do not, is "imagination".
we can picture something that does not exsist at this moment, and figure out how to make it real; art, science, medicine, music all are creations of our ability to combine ideas into something we can use.
put basically we are the greatest tool users, that's it. nothing special, no "creator" required we are simply a genetic fluke that was able to survive.
apes have the ability to use basic tools, like clubs and create bedding for sleeping.
ex: chimps use a tree branch to bash predators using a "hit and run" tactic; orangutangs fold tree branches to make a softer sleeping area in trees.
our imaginations are the only thing that took use to the top of the food chain; we have no major strength, no claws, we're slow compared to other mammals, lack fur to keep warm on land and don't possess enough blubber to keep us warm in water; basically we are the "platypus" of the ape family.
🙂
7. "It is evident, therefore, that man is dual in aspect: as an animal he is subject to nature, but in his spiritual or conscious being he transcends the world of material existence. His spiritual powers, being nobler and higher, possess virtues of which nature intrinsically has no evidence..."
What are you claiming man's spiritual powers have that are not in nature?
Are you using "nature" as a term for matter?
In what way do you know that sentience is not just an aspect of matter?
In what way do you know that matter is not just a representation of universal sentience?
If consciousness is emergent even, how does that make it beyond nature?
#1 is wrong...there is no order to the universe or perfection. The universe is constantly changing (ie; stars burning up; new planets/stars forming) and totally chaotic. Our planet alone is far from perfect; no species is perfect.
Sorry Kimberlee. #3 is false, which also makes #4 false. We share something like 75% of our DNA with chimps and around 60% with a carrot. Saying we don't share the same "qualities" is silly. Why, because we are smarter? Intelligence is found in many creatures. We might be the smartest but we aren't the only ones that possess intelligence. There is nothing about humans at all that makes them special or different from the rest of nature. That is the ego talking because you feel special and are more intelligent than other mammals.
This also makes your conclusion in #7 and also in #9 a non sequitur. So because humans possess higher intelligence than other mammals, it automatically means they have a soul? How? Please connect the dots for me because your logic is lacking and isn't based on any kind of science or evidence whatsoever. Again, it's strictly the ego talking. Everyone wants to be special. I see no reason to put humans on a pedestal above all other life on the planet. We couldn't exist without it, we ARE part of nature, not above it.
More childish handle stealing I see – somewhat ironically given the topic of this article I think.
Someone apparently doesn't stand by the AFA 'honor' code: "We will not lie, steal, or cheat, nor tolerate among us anyone who does."
When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity.
When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion"
Robert Pirsig.
And, since most religions start as the brainchild of a single founder, that would imply that it's likely that religion starts from a delusion.
"The Two Universal Sects
They all err—Moslems, Jews,
Christians, and Zoroastrians:
Humanity follows two world-wide sects:
One, man intelligent without religion,
The second, religious without intellect. "
Al-Ma'arri
, born AD 973 /, died AD 1058 / .
Al-Ma’arri was a blind Arab philosopher, poet and writer.[1][2] He was a controversial rationalist of his time, attacking the dogmas of religion and rejecting the claim that Islam possessed any monopoly on truth."
Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/resalat-al-ghufran#ixzz1lI6DuZmZ and http://www.humanistictexts.org/al_ma'arri.htm
Death's Debt is Paid in
Full
Death's debt is then and there
Paid down by dying men;
But it is a promise bare
That they shall rise again.
Al-Ma'arri
... in your mind.
And that's all that matter to you, right?
I figure after death is like before life. I don't recall that being bad.
Which god?
I love all the ways religious people try to scare others into believing the same silly stuff that they do.
Final judgment.
End is Nigh.
Coming soon.
End of Days.
Answer to him.
Eternity is forever.
Eternal Damnation.
Burn in Hell
Blah Blah Blah
More scary stuff.
Ridiculous stuff about pearly gates.
Come on.
Lamb, are you scared? Why? I am not scared. I look forward to standing before God when this life is over.
No time like the present, Donovan
No I am not. If I was scared I would believe in one of the gods.
Ok, most of the people that tell me they are scared of death tell me that because they are not ready. Those who have received Jesus as Savior are ready, and we have peace about death.
i have total peace about death
i do not believe in judgement
i do not seek heaven
i do not fear hell
perhaps they are scared because it benefits the purveyors of their belief system benefit from people being scared. so, they invent some great ill (sin) and then scare the bejeebus out of them if they don't buy their cure (jeebus). personally, i don't give a steaming pile about your god or it's supposed judgement. and, those who allow someone else to take the punishment they feel they deserve are cowards, and have no authority to speak of morality. is that clear enough, jeebus boy?
Sired Lamb...
What an immaculate inspection of considerable conception...
I am ready to die. If I die tomorrow I will die happy. What more is there? If I live another 40 years that's great too.
I wish to honor God in all that I do. I know I will give an account to Him one day and I take that very seriously. I thank God for sending His Son to atone for my sins so that I can have eternal life through faith in Christ. I love the Lord and seek to honor Him. We will all indeed give an account to God at the final judgement. I am glad He has made me ready for that day. Are you ready to meet the Judge of the universe?
Just curious, but if Jesus paid for my sins, then why do I need an "accounting"? Shouldn't my account be 'Paid in Full'?
Me II, I must say that is a great question. Most people aren't aware there are actually 2 judgements. One is for those who have rejected God's provision of the atonement of Jesus. The other, is for believers. The judgement for believers has more to do with rewards given for works of faith after having been forgive for their sins. So it is really about rewards because just as you are asking, the believer has passed from judgement to life. Good one Me II
What about the human beings God created who've never heard of Jesus? Is their a 3rd?
So Jesus didn't pay for *all* sins, just all sins except rejection.
Madtown, there are only two. We are all accountable, and all without excuse, because God is known through that which has been created....Romans 1 There are differenet levels of accountability. For example Jesus said "to him that is given much, much will be required". But all are accountable for their sins. Sin must be dealt with and their is only one provision for it, the atoment of Jesus.
Me II. I would have enjoyed talking with you in theology class. You are asking all the right questions. lol Jesus paid for all our sins, yes! But the gift of eternal life is just that a FREE GIFT! If someone offers you a gift and you do NOT accept it, what then? Those who do not accept God's free gift of eternal life through faith in Christ have REJECTED the only provision or hope for their salvation.
Free? I think you forgot about the attached strings.
Lamb, it seems you are viewing this from a negative perspective. What strings are you referring to?
@Donovan,
Ah, but it's not "free" is it? One must accept Jesus in order to receive it, correct?
In addition, the alternative is not the lack of a gift, but eternal punishment. In other words 'accept this "gift" or suffer for all eternity'.
I'd hardly call that "free" or a "gift".
You can't call it a gift. A gift is something you give without expecting anything in return. If some type of service is required before you get it its not a gift.
Atheism is a gift.
Want some. Its easy. You simply do nothing and believe in nothing.
Done
Now that's a gift.
We are all accountable, and all without excuse, because God is known through that which has been created....Romans 1
----–
I don't think you understand. You are obviously affiliated with the christian religion, as is your choice. You quote biblical scripture. You must understand that not every human throughout the world knows about the bible and christianity. There are many cultures where it simply doesn't exist. If this is "God's word", how can this be? God created these humans, I wonder why he didn't create a way for them to have access to this word? You said people reject "God's provision of the atonement of Jesus". You think having no knowledge of Jesus is not an excuse for not accepting Jesus? That makes no sense. Do you think my sister's name is funny? You don't know my sister? That's not an excuse, answer the question.
Me II, Yes it is a FREE GIFT. Jesus paid the price that you and I did NOT have to pay. He took our judgement upon Himself. Its not an and or, heaven or punishment. We are already condemned because of our sin. When we receive God's gift of salvation through Christ we then pass from death to life.
Donovan,
Why don't you take personal responsibility for what you do rather than let someone else pay your punishment?
Observer, I am doing the responsible thing. If you wish to die in your sins, you will indeed be responsible for them.
Donovan
Do you read your own comments.?
"Jesus paid the price that you and I did NOT have to pay".
Donovan
"Observer, I am doing the responsible thing"
So are you doing the responsible thing and disagreeing with the Bible when it comes to supporting slavery, discrimination against women and the handicapped and beating helpless children with rods for discipline?
Madtown, sorry but when I here people talk the way that you are talking they are usually trying to justify their own rejection and rebellion against God. Here is the deal. YOU have heard of Jesus. YOU have been told that He died on the cross for our sins. YOU are responsible for what you know. YOU will be held accountable.
Observer, yes. He paid our price. Thank God. You wish to pay your own way. Go for it. Good luck with that.
Are you ready to meet the judge of the Universe.
What a silly passive aggressive threat.
"I know I will give an account to Him one day and I take that very seriously."
I try to be mindful of my money, but it's sometimes difficult. So this guy, what kind of account are you going to give to him, and how are you going to do it – is this one of these offshore deals?
Doris, as mentioned above, believers like me will give an account for the gifts God has given us after having received eternal life throug faith in Christ. God gives spiritual gifts to His people and He expects them to be used for His work here on earth. For non believers, they will account for there sins. Everyone of them.
So, what about those that are "brainwashed" to worship someone like Kim Jong Un? Surely your god wouldn't leave them out? What would you say if I raised one kid Christian, one Jewish, one Islamic and one Athiest? Why would a god need to have worshippers? Does he become powerless if he loses them? If he was omnipotent, wouldn't he be able to convince everyone worldly, not by word of mouth? Is that some kind of sick game? Poor kids starving to death in an isolated country get shafted in the end. Go praise god for finding your car keys now, or your new job... just remember that swift back hand you just gave everyone without an "opportunity" to know about an all loving omnipotent god, that couldn't manage to cross a DMZ in 60 years.... pathetic.
you must serve a impotent god who needs people do his work on earth
billy bob: of course, gods die when they run out of worshippers
Is it Simon Cowell. Because I am going to need a minute to prepare. He is kind of scary.
So, what I'm hearing is that you really like all of Christianity's promises, but do you actual good reasons to believe that they're true? After all, if it sounds too good to be true, then, chances are ...
Ken, your right lol, with men it is often to good to be true. With God, that is NOT how it works. God gives all things freely. How much did you pay to get into this life for example? God gives us freely, with man, it is not that way.
Religious promises are always way better than any other promises, and they all come from men as far as anyone can really tell. Somebody promised that God gives all things freely. You seem to have forgotten that the bible was written by men. Why should I believe in something supernatural when nature itself could far more easily be responsible for my free life?
Well Ken, there is no "nauture itself" apart from God. There is NOTHING apart from God. Not only did He create all things, but He sustains all things. The Holy Books are not books of men. Yes, God used men to write them. But these men were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Only God can do something from nothing.
donovan: what makes you think you speak for god? can you be any more fvcking arrogant?
Sam, either he's a pantheist or confused in his writing. If a pantheist, he can speak for god.
Sam, I try not to interact with a dog when it growls. Thats what you seem like to me. I think I'll pass
your "we will all face judgement" schtick in a hollow threat
For those new members of this blog:
Want to know how to profit from a " non-profit"? Mickey Weinstein (featured in the topic) shows us how at http://www2.guidestar.org/FinDoc-uments/2011/203/967/2011-203967302-08d9fe4f-9.pdf (make sure you remove the hyphen in Doc-uments). See p. 6 of the comments for added details.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Seems like a large portion are in Iraq. Good thing we saved them from Saddam right?
Posted in the wrong spot. oops
I honestly feel bad for theists, because they believe without God there's no hope, or purpose, your living a life that according to theism is about kotowing to a supreme ditator, you could die any second, and you would just dissapear from existence, hope is not about what comes after you die, it is about living life in the here and now. I was a theist, I know what it's like. And honestly if that's the truth and all we are pawns in a galactic game of chess where friends and family will potentially suffer for finite "crimes" against this Supreme dictator, I would rather believe in what can be demonstated to be true than to believe in your immoral fairy tale. (And I'm not saying there is Good evidence for God, I'm just saying that Atheists don't accept foolishness just to accept it, they accept reality because there's no hope, no point, no meaning, to worship of a mob boss) I just want to show love, hope and meaning exists to theists, no god needed.
This was meant as a response to Rebel4Christ...
Life is not meaningless without God. It's just a reality to which we may NEVER get the full picture of. And don't presume that you are REQUIRED to get answers about life before you die. Or even after.
Humans are funny. We want the answers to everything.... YESTERDAY. We look to other humans to give us the answers from a GOD. Something that created and designed REALITY. Mind you, Voyager just left our solar system....
Think..... do you really think any human that has ever lived got that close to that kind of power?!? I remain highly doubtful.
If anything; get this out of life... "be humble"
Meaning, like all religions, are created by man.
If Jesus were a real person and were alive today, do you honestly believe he'd be a scientifically illiterate denier of reality who tells people constantly they are wrong or evil? Of course not. That isn't his bag. Jesus would have sat down with the opposition (or scientists) and tried to help them understand compassion, he wouldn't tell them they are wrong based on petty beliefs. It's not about who or what you believe in, it's about empathy and compassion, something that tons of religious folks that claim to know Jesus completely disregard.
He would have said "what's an atom".
My daddy never said anything about that.
It's not so much an 'atom' as it is an object quite similar to one of our celestial night skies' galaxy clusters and way older...
Except that two items you compare are not at all similar.
If Jesus were alive today wouldn't he be opposing fundamentalist conservatives? Aren't the leaders of the Christian Right not the Pharisees of our time?
Sired Barcs...
How skilled and compassionate a view you have there...
"If Jesus were a real person and were alive today".....................he would be a labratory experiment in a matter of moments.
a human that can turn water to wine, walk on water, etc etc etc would cause every great mind in the world to want to disect him, study how his brain functions and see if we can duplicate the results.
just think if humans could use alchemy the way jesus did; water to wine, sheeeeet we would be turning iron to gold. XD
Why doesn't the buybull mention atoms?
Cool using my name.
I honestly feel bad for atheists, because without God there's no hope, or purpose, your living a life that according to atheism is about as random and meaningless as a rock on the ground, you could die any second, and you would just dissapear from existence, there's no hope. I was an atheist, I know what it's like. And honestly if that's the truth and all we are is random particles floating around, I would rather believe in my fairy tail existence than your truth. (And I'm not saying there isn't Good evidence for God, I'm just saying that Christians don't accept foolishness just to accept it, they accept God because there's no hope, no point, no meaning in anything, no life) I just want to show love to atheists
By calling us hopeless. Thanks
What are you talking about? The whole purpose of life is to live. That's it. You can live however you want and it is essentially "meaningless". You don't need a god to be a good person or have purpose in life.
you need God to grow and mature into a an adult spirit to be a companion to God. You being a human here on earth is only a small blip on the record of your life.You start out as a immature little spirit with little or no power and by going through the trauma and experiences of life here on earth for a short time you learn about yourself and what is true and important.You retain your knowledge as you pass into the spirit realm making you either usful to God or not depending on your progress. You all have God inside you and the goal is to find him and realize it.
Translation:
I would prefer to live with a false hope than seek proof.
It helps me feel superior and sleep at night.
So in other words, people choose to believe in god just because the idea of eternal life and paradise sounds cool. That's as valid a reason as any i suppose. It doesn't make it true or false however. I couldn't imagine dedicating my entire life to a religion only to have it be for naught. I prefer to believe what is factual, tangible and proven rather than go off on some limb about what god wants when I've never even met the guy.
Don't forget that lots of people are still into reincarnation, for the same reasons, and based on the same level of "proof". There's a wide range of wishful, magical thinking out there, best not to think of it as just a Christian problem.
Agreed. There are plenty of religions and belief systems that are based on wishful thinking. Many atheists believe reincarnation and other similar philosophies. I enjoy the one of the ancient Egyptian interpretations myself where you keep living life as a person until you can become spiritual enough to pass the 'end of life' test to move on to the next realm of existence. That doesn't mean it's true, however. It's just cool sounding. Pretty much all religions are the same way whether they are theistic or atheistic.
Translation:
I would prefer to live with a false hope than seek proof.
It helps me feel superior and sleep at night.
Good for you. I feel sorry for you.
I honestly feel bad for theists, because they believe without God there's no hope, or purpose, your living a life that according to theism is about kotowing to a supreme ditator, you could die any second, and you would just dissapear from existence, hope is not about what comes after you die, it is about living life in the here and now. I was a theist, I know what it's like. And honestly if that's the truth and all we are pawns in a galactic game of chess where friends and family will potentially suffer for finite "crimes" against this Supreme dictator, I would rather believe in what can be demonstated to be true than to believe in your immoral fairy tale. (And I'm not saying there is Good evidence for God, I'm just saying that Atheists don't accept foolishness just to accept it, they accept reality because there's no hope, no point, no meaning, to worship of a mob boss) I just want to show love, hope and meaning exists to theists, no god needed..
Blessed are the Cheesemakers, good evening!
Please don't lump all people who believe in God into one definition. That encompasses a lot of people who have different concepts of God, of the purpose for life, of the life after death, why we are here, etc. I assume if I surveyed a room full of Atheists, I might get different answers to some of these questions also.
Yes Kimberly, I realize painting with too broad a brush is frought with danger. If you will notice I took Rebel4Christs original post and just made some changes to it, for instance changing "atheist" to "theist". It wasn't meant to attack you personally so take it with a grain of salt. It was meant to show how his/her argument could be flipped on its ear rather easily.
You say not to lump all theists into one definition, yet people are constantly lumping all atheists together as if they follow this anti god religion. That's completely false. Atheists have their own belief systems, they just don't include a creator or god. The original post people are responding to does exactly that.
i have plenty of hope, rebel4christ
i am not a toady who feels that he was born offensive to "god"
Life HAS and will always HAVE meaning without GOD. Any child proves that. They can enjoy life [if raised in a loving enviornment, of course] without any concept of GOD, and be happy. All children are atheists before society starts ramming imaginary BS down their throats.
Jesus was just David Koresh 2000 years earlier. A sociopathic conman with a good story and lots of charisma. All this foolishness, without a shred of proof, has sprung up from there.
utter, mind numbing nonsense.
Do you have proof of this?
Do you have proof against it?
Why would you think that I would have proof against this?
Why ask why? Just drink a Bud Dry and shut the hell up, troll.
Why wouldn't there be a good reason to ask why?
Eeeeeeewwww! @Bud Dry..lol
Do they still make Labatt's?
Actually I should have posed that ?? to our good doctor up north.
Yes, mama, they still make LaBlatt's.
Thanks, I address..lol. I just suddenly realized I missed those.
dubbie dubbie doooooo...................beware the budweiser penguins. XD
I'm more interested in proof that Jesus wasn't just some random dude named Jesus that had nothing to do with the biblical accounts. Was Jesus even real? Was he even the son of god? Is there evidence of any of it?
Why are you asking these questions?
Questions need to asked because scrutiny and objectivity does matter.
The 5 laws of the Theory of Evolution have proven their validity thousands of times by millions of people.
The principles are practically applied on a daily basis in fields like medicine, geology, mathematics, molecular biology, robotics, chemistry, astrophysics, agriculture, epidemiology, aerospace engineering, architecture, data mining, drug discovery and design, electrical engineering, finance, geophysics, materials engineering, military strategy, pattern recognition, robotics, scheduling, systems engineering etc.
Tangible proof can be found by studying vestigial features, ebryonic development, biogeography, DNA sequencing, pseudogenes, endogenous retroviruses, labratory direct examination of natural selection in action in E-Coli bacteria, lactose intolerance in humans, the peppered moth's colour change in reaction to industrial pollution, radiotrophic fungi at Chernobyl... all of these things add to the modern evolutionary synthesis.
We have directly observes speciation in Blackcap birds, fruit flies, mosquitos, mice, Shortfin molly fish and other specimens.
Some of the methods used to determine the age of the planet include:
Stratigraphy, Dendrochronology,Obsidian Hydration Dating, Paleomagnetic/Archaeomagnetic , Luminescence Dating, Amino Acid Racemization, Fission-track Dating, Ice Cores, Cation Ratio, Fluorine Dating, Patination, oxidizable Carbon Ratio, Electron Spin Resonance , and Cosmic-ray Exposure Dating.
Evidence for the Genesis Creation account comes from The Bible and... nothing else, I'm afraid.
- Doc Vestibule
Why did you post this comment?
My guess is because of the large amount of people who are wrongly claiming evolution is false.
Why should I pay any attention to anyone else's points when they never pay any attention to mine?
It looks like you already did pay attention to theirs, but you are welcome to make any point you'd like. Likewise, so can the opposition. No need to be upset about it, it's just a conflicting viewpoint, especially when you take into account the anti-science faction of religion. Obviously they aren't all like that, but I see it constantly in these blogs with people straight up denying a scientific theory.
"There's no such thing as evolution."
– Topher
Right. Science rejects it so why shouldn't I?
Sorry I'm going to have to ask for proof of science rejecting evolution.
Topher
Post the "reliable" scientific evidence that you have that is not taken from a Christian apologetics, fake science site that proves evolution to be a false premise. While you are at it check out all the knowledge compiled that scientifically confirms that evolution is fact, beyond doubt.
Please explain to me how something that happened millions (if not billions) of years ago and is not observable today meets the criteria for the scientific method — testable and repeatable.
Please also explain to me where we get the additional genetic information it would take when we only observe loses of information.
Thirdly, your demand that I not use apologetics to answer your questions or that Creationist sites are not scientific is a fallacy and will not be acted upon.
No, no Topher, don't start your dishonest questions, it is up to you to provide the answers of your premise; the garbage science posted on apologetics websites has zero scientific basis and is simply faith based opinion. Prove me wrong
Charm Quark
"No, no Topher, don't start your dishonest questions, "
I posted three times in a row and none of them were questions.
"it is up to you to provide the answers of your premise;"
I did. Science rejects it. It not only doesn't meet the standard, but you never get additional information. You only get losses.
"the garbage science posted on apologetics websites has zero scientific basis and is simply faith based opinion. Prove me wrong"
Nothing garbage about them. You just reject it because you have a presupposition and because if you found them to be accurate, you might have to bow the knee to God.
Topher
It is you that rejects all KNOWLEDGE that does not agree with your beliefs, no matter how much evidence there is that proves your beliefs absolutely wrong.
You just reject it because you have a presupposition
-----–
Irony alert!
Charm Quark
"It is you that rejects all KNOWLEDGE that does not agree with your beliefs, no matter how much evidence there is that proves your beliefs absolutely wrong."
True, I believe the Bible over anything man says. God is perfect and man is fallible. But I've yet to see anything that proves my beliefs wrong.
Charm
You still haven't explained how it's scientific or where the additional genetic information comes from. Can I show you a video that would explain this stuff better than I could?
Sure knock yourself out Topher. but I can imagine that it will be quire entertaining, comical even.
I believe the Bible over anything man says
-----
More irony.
Here you go, dude. Hope you find it entertaining ... even if you disagree with it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNnTm-k8w5I
Evolution IS observable today. The problem is you do not understand what is meant by evolution. It happens on the genetic level. The standard definition is: genetic mutations sorted by natural selection. Genetic mutations are observable from gen to gen via genome mapping. Natural selection has been observed countless times and is an obvious fact of nature. The better adapted will survive. If evolution is defined by the above terms than it is 100% conclusive. Just because you can't imagine how lots of small changes add up over millions of years, doesn't mean it's wrong. We have the fossil record, genetics and radiometric dating that paint a pretty good picture of evolution. The process itself is 100% proven. The entire theory is a slam dunk for common ancestry, but has some hypotheses that are still up for debate (ie dates and time frames of certain transitions). Even whale evolution has been solved. There isn't any scientific debate about evolution and there hasn't been for decades.
Topher
I asked the question above, What happens when matter comes in contact with anti matter?
Tell me.
Topher
You could look it up yourself but the matter and anti matter annihilate each other in a burst of pure energy, much like a big bang and this process could carry on for infinity, no god required.
Well, you have to explain where the matter and the anti-matter came from so they can react with each other. But then again, if there was nothing to begin with, the couldn't react off one another. So the big bang still doesn't have much weight.
Well I guess I will not be able to get you to understand particle physics and quantum mechanics or even get you to visit the CERN website and look at the knowledge being provided by the LHC, so I will let you dwell in the ignorance of the 2000 year old bible that is impossible to even come close to being true.
Fake Charm Quark, indeed scientists, and I am just an observer, readily admit that they do not know everything, the thrill is in the search for the proofs, where people like Topher are absolutely sure, the end AMEN. Christians cannot admit that they do not really know, they have faith but no proof, surrendering all reason and logic to an ancient myth, so sad.