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 The Air Force Academy has made a big change to its honor code to reflect religious diversity.
October 25th, 2013
05:11 PM ET
Air Force makes 'God' optional in honor codeBy Emily Smith, CNN (CNN) - The U.S. Air Force Academy has decided to make phrase "so help me God" optional in its honor code after an activist group protested that requiring all cadets to recite it violates their rights. The complete oath reads: "We will not lie, steal, or cheat, nor tolerate among us anyone who does, so help me God." Cadets are required to recite the oath when they complete basic training. It is also taken by the entire cadet wing each year as re-affirmation of their commitment to the honor code, said AFA spokesman Major Brus Vidal. The Military for Religious Freedom Foundation, a watchdog group that has waged repeated battle with the armed services, took issue with the last clause of the sentence, saying that no cadets should be forced to make a promise to God. After the complaint was filed by MRFF, the Air Force Academy Honor Review Committee met for an in-depth discussion regarding the oath. On Friday, the AFA released a statement saying they had decided to make the final clause of the honor oath optional. The AFA statement read, in part, “Here at the Academy, we world to build a culture of dignity and respect, and that respect includes the ability of our cadets, Airmen and civilian Airmen to freely practice and exercise their religious preference –- or not.” "The fact that the oath is optional will be communicated in honor lessons, leadership lessons, and religious respect lessons during the summer (cadet basic military training) so all trainees will understand prior to taking the Cadet Honor Oath that the final clause will be completely optional," said Vidal. "The person administering the oath, who is the cadet wing honor chair has the option to say or not say 'so help me god," so this might vary from year to year," Vidal continued. MORE ON CNN: Air Force: Bible and nukes don't mix Mikey Weinstein, MRFF's founder and president, said he would sue the academy on behalf of his clients if the words were still left at the end of the oath, even if repeating them was optional. “If the words are still there and you don’t say [them] you turn yourself into a tarantula on a wedding cake,” he said. MRFF has taken issue with the Air Force before. In 2011, the group complained about an Air Force training presentation that used religion to teach the ethics and morality of using nuclear weapons. That same year, CNN learned that the Air Force was using religious tenets such as the Ten Commandments to teach core values to ROTC cadets. MORE ON CNN: Air Force's use of Christian messages extends to ROTC
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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God hates sin.
And moniker theft.
You can't steal an alias its already an impostor.
Nice rationalization.
fake Observer,
Your lying is a violation of the Terms of Service.
You LIE everytime you use someone else's handle.
God HATES LIARS. Oooops. Tell him. lol. lol.
Fake Observer,
Is your "Holy Spirit" inspiring you to use these low-life tactics. What a dope it must be... or more likely it is you who is the dopey one. Shoo, pest.
(or, as you wish, keep it up, clown - you're the non-believers' best proof that they are on the right track!)
fake Observer,
(Prov. 6:19) “The Lord hates a false witness who utters lies”
Ooops. Looks like you may be toast.
No crime no foul there is no sin or penalty that can be brought to bear against a Christian. A Christian is forgiven past present and future.
fake Observer,
(Prov. 6:19) “The Lord hates a false witness who utters lies”
The Bible says GOD HATES YOU.
You can't fake fake. If there were a fake observer it would be of less consequence than a "real" observer. No crime no foul and definitely no hate from God.
There is no sin in mocking a mocker.
AMEN
fake Observer,
(Prov. 6:19) “The Lord hates a false witness who utters lies”
The Bible says GOD HATES YOU.
Ooops!
Nothing false nothing fake and no lie . three strikes I'm out. Looks like the only hate here belongs to me. I plan to repent on my deathbed and dodge that bullet.
There is no sin in mocking a mocker .
Observer
"There is no sin in mocking a mocker"
More proof you may never have read a Bible.
Akira hates hypocrites.
Hey Akira, someone stole my name to say hello to you for some reason a couple of days ago lol. Just wanted to say hello for real from me. Hello!
P.S. That was definitely not TTtPS.
Hope akira never has to pass a mirror.
There is no such thing as sin. If there was, it would be impossible to sin anyway. Logic fail.
Pasta, couch cushion, FBI, my 12-year-old daughter, tips, itchy ears.
Amen.
Tommy tom, steal my handle, my bosses, kicked off his other site, atheists spread lies of satan.
Amen.
Phony, HeavenSent, flea and tick powder, carnal atheist, start your walk with Jesus.
Amen.
Hi folks, God here,
Worship me or I will torture you forever.
Have a nice day.
I don't believe you, I think you are just going to look the other way while someone else does your dirty work, hmmm?
Blessed are those that tolerate, nay, that LIKE Topher!
Then my wife is very blessed. She both tolerates and likes me. 😉
Awww! That is so sweet!
You shouldn't even be wasting your time here Topher. You should be having snuggles with her. Shame on you.
What's up T? Going to my first Halloween event tonight. Can't wait. Live band, haunted house, etc.
Not much. You dressing up?
No, I never dress up any more, but I WAS considering being "Bob" from "Bob's Burgers" (cartoon)
I know who you're talking about, but I've never seen it. Is it funny?
It's average.
I just read where the voice of Ms. Crabapple died. I haven't seen Simpsons in like a decade.
Me either.
I just read the same thing. Still, as you said, I haven't watched new episodes in years. Gotta make room for some classic Simpsons occasionally though.
How was the play?
Great opening night. My daughter nailed it, very proud papa. Thanks for asking. Now 5 more week of this show and she starts rehearsals for another show on 10/29. arg.
Got a burgeoning actress on your hands, huh?
Ever since she was 7 years old. It has been non-stop for years.
When I was 7 I think I wanted to be a cop or an astronaut.
They grow up fast nowadays.
I'll find out soon enough.
Are you pregnant?
My wife is expecting, yes.
Better her than you. Congrats!! I did not know that. Your life is over, but in a good way.
Haha. Yeah, scared and excited at the same time.
Topher: Congrats and it is the greatest joy in this world. Children are little sponges, they pick up on everything and never cease to keep you guessing. Happy Parenting, you're in for the experience of a life time.
Thanks guys, I appreciate it.
Topher: Congrats to you and Mrs. Topher on the child
You are neglecting your wife, Topher. What is your excuse?
How am I neglecting her?
"How am I neglecting her?" asked the young man who spends hours and hours arguing with atheists on teh internets.
sure, but only like watching a geek in the circus
sam stone find solitude in the Topherness of Topher.
"The Topherness of Topher" – sounds like a book title. For a self-indulgent and self-serving sort of book.
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Thou shalt not let moochers into thy hut.
Threats of eternal punishment betrays a weak argument.
There shall be pooping and wiping of butt.
'Bout time.
I'm sure God doesn't care one way or another! So why should you. Remember, God is all knowing, all powerfull , yet understanding of the foibles of mankind?
I'm pretty sure that if the Abrahamic god did exist (thankfully, he doesn't), he'd care an awful lot. Anybody who didn't revere Yahweh usually got tolchocked in the OT.
And just.
Absotively. There's nothing more just than condemning someone to eternal torture for minor infractions to an archaic body of laws.
Whether it's minor is only important to the eye of the judge.
No it isn't. If a judge sentences somebody to torture and death for jaywalking, anybody with half a brain can recognize that that is extremely excessive.
You may say a crime between you and I is meaningless or unimportant. And you might even be right. But sins are a crime against a holy and just God.
Who says he's holy and just? He sounds like a petty d-bag to me. Why can't I graze different types of cattle together? Why can't I wear different fabrics? Imagine there was no religion and some random guy came up to you in the street raving that you'd burn in everlasting fire for wearing different types of fabric. You'd justifiably think he was a nutcase.
He says so. And you can do those things if you want to.
He says so? OK, worship away if that's good enough for you. Personally, I don't take the word of fictional characters at face value.
I don't either.
I hope so.
Where does it say "he said so"?
In the Bible.
The Bible was written by people, not a god. So god didn't say that...people said that god said that. Not impressed
God inspired the people to say that. Thus, God said it.
Blessed are the Cheesemakers
Don't bother. Trying to rationally against circular reasoning is akin to rationally arguing with somebody who likes to shout at mice with their shirt off and steal scabs off of people's knees.
No, that is still people saying that they were inspired by god to say that. I have no reason to think they were telling the truth. Try again.
You don't have to believe it. That's up to you.
I would believe it if there was good reason to believe it and not someone like yourself proclaiming it to be true . Anyone can do that...not impressed.
Um, isn't the whole point that we have to believe in it or we'll spend eternity with Satan and all his hellish minions (not that that would bother me. He always seemed like a decent guy to me)?
Blessed are the Cheesemakers
"I would believe it if there was good reason to believe it and not someone like yourself proclaiming it to be true . Anyone can do that...not impressed."
Believe the eyewitnesses then.
I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that
"Um, isn't the whole point that we have to believe in it or we'll spend eternity with Satan and all his hellish minions (not that that would bother me. He always seemed like a decent guy to me)?"
Belief is part of it, yes. You must repent and trust in Him. But if you choose to reject it that's up to you. Of course if you do reject it and it's true, then you'll be judged for your crimes.
"Believe the eyewitnesses then."
That is just people making claims, I told you anyone can do that. And the eyewitnesses didn't write anything down. It was other people who wrote down what was claimed by eyewitnesses. Even less impressive.
Blessed are the Cheesemakers
"That is just people making claims, I told you anyone can do that. And the eyewitnesses didn't write anything down. It was other people who wrote down what was claimed by eyewitnesses. Even less impressive."
No. Matthew and John were both apostles. Obvious eyewitnesses. Mark was running with the group. James and Jude were Christ's brothers. Paul met Christ after the resurrection ...
The earliest gospels were written in greek, those guys were greek?
The audience spoke Greek. Paul's whole ministry was taking the Gospel to the Gentiles. Luke, though not an eyewitness for his Gospel, also wrote Acts. He was a Gentile himself. Even some of the Gospels themselves (though I can't specifically remember which ones off hand) were written specifically to Gentile audiences. Not only that, look who ruled the region. I think it very likely they all spoke it.
judgement is a bad joke played on humanity
yet, some people suckle up to it like baby sows on their mom's teat
gopher: god inspired me to tell you that you are a pompous, cowardly d-bag
ergo, god said that you are a pompous, cowardly d-bag
hallelujah
@Topher – "No. Matthew and John were both apostles. Obvious eyewitnesses." etc.
Scholarly research says the gospels of Matthew and John were written much later by people who weren't apostles.
I'm guessing you also believe all of Isaiah was written before Cyrus conquered Babylon?
Unless it's in the Bible He didn't tell you anything. Look up cessationism.
Felix
"Scholarly research says the gospels of Matthew and John were written much later by people who weren't apostles."
There's no scholarly research that says such a thing. Only atheists say that stuff because it's ridiculous. As if we don't have the accounts of others outside of the Bible to know these things.
@Topher – "There's no scholarly research that says such a thing. Only atheists say that stuff because it's ridiculous. As if we don't have the accounts of others outside of the Bible to know these things"
I suggest you Google "Who wrote the gospel of Matthew" to find plenty of sources that support my statement. I'd be interested to know about any of the accounts outside the Bible you mention.
nonsense, gopher
god spoke to me and she said you were a punk
look up a therapist
Felix
How many of those sources are not atheist or agnostic?
The book is true because the book says that the book is true which says that the book is true which says that the book is true which says that the book is true which says that the book is true which says that the book is true which says that the book is true ad infinitum.
Circular reasoning at its finest.
@Topher" – "How many of those sources are not atheist or agnostic?"
I don't know, and neither do you, but you seem to presume they all are. How about some scholarship that backs up your claim (not just tradition)?
Still wondering about that Cyrus question, too.
Felix
"I don't know, and neither do you, but you seem to presume they all are. How about some scholarship that backs up your claim (not just tradition)?"
Well, if they are either of those things they have a presupposition going in.
"Still wondering about that Cyrus question, too."
Don't know what you're talking about.
"They shot Cyrus!"
"Those bastards!"
Topher – "As if we don't have the accounts of others outside of the Bible to know these things."
Still waiting for some scholarly backing for that claim.
The Cyrus question I asked a few posts back, where Isaiah's "prophecy" of Cyrus rescuing the Jews from captivity is often used to validate biblical prophecy. My question was whether you believed all of Isaiah was written before Cyrus conquered Babylon?
Felix
"Still waiting for some scholarly backing for that claim."
We don't need anything "scholarly" ... we know who were the second generation of the church, i.e., who sat at the feet of the apostles. If you want specific names, I'll have to look them up for you. I don't have that book in front of me at the moment. Those men left us writings, too, and they confirm the authorship ...
"The Cyrus question I asked a few posts back, where Isaiah's "prophecy" of Cyrus rescuing the Jews from captivity is often used to validate biblical prophecy. My question was whether you believed all of Isaiah was written before Cyrus conquered Babylon?"
Right. I mean I haven't looked into it, so I have no idea.
Isaiah was written about 200 years before Cyrus was born and about 700 years before Christ was born.
thanks Robert
The earliest manuscript of Isaiah was dated to approximately 170 bce.
Topher – "Right. I mean I haven't looked into it, so I have no idea."
OK, fair enough–I know the question was off topic, it's just that I often use that question to see how willing someone is to ignore the obvious. Robert Brown seems to be willing.
I'm probably with Robert on this one, though I've honestly never looked into it. After all, I hold the Bible to be the infallible, inerrant Word of God.
Isaiah wrote during the reign of Uzziah 767 – 740.
I'm curious. How much of the Book of Isaiah do you think Isaiah wrote?
Hey Tom,
There are those who think one person, Isaiah, wrote the book named for him. Others think there were two, three, or more authors. I believe it was written by one Isaiah. What do you think?
I don't have a position on Isaiah that I'd want to defend. Biblical scholars see perhaps three authors. There is evidence of a lot of editing. Marvin Sweeney is an authority:
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=owwhpmIVgSAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=The+Hebrew+Bible+today:+an+introduction+to+critical+issues#v=onepage&q=Isaiah&f=false
ironically, you seek to avoid the justice of your lord
if you concede that you are guilty of something
the moral thing to do would be to step up and take your punishment
instead, you hide behind someone else's sacrifice
why should anyone want to hear (or read) your preaching
you are obviouly not a moral person
..since we don't know what GOD even is, we don't swear an oath to anyone!
"No one knows if this jesus christ existed, and if he did, NOTHING is known about him!"
Why I am not a christian Bertrand Russell 1928
"Here I come to save the dayyyy..."- Mickey Mouse
Some people champ at the bit to play the hypocrite card whenever they can. It's psychologically satisfying for them. It makes them feel holier-than-thou.
Sammy,
The real HYPOCRITES are the holier-than-thou Christians who pick on nonbelievers for not believing all of a Bible that they don't believe all of themselves..
I believe all of the Bible.
All of all of the bibles?
There's only one.
LOL – Your turnip truck has left you behind again, I see. Oh, you woefully ignorant person. I pity your children.
Good, Abrahamic religious insanity is slowing dying off.
Thee Encyclopedia of Religion and War states: “The earliest followers of Jesus rejected war and military service,” recognizing those practices as “incompatible with the love ethic of Jesus and the injunction to love one’s enemies.” Likewise, German theologian Peter Meinhold said of those early disciples of Jesus: “Being a Christian and a soldier was considered irreconcilable.”
Cherry-picking Christians can and do interpret any text to support any position at all.
There is more support for killing enemies than there is for refusing to be a soldier, but fools will be fools regardless.
El: So are you taking your kid Trick or Treating this week or are you denying them the simple pleasure of doing all all other kids do that night due to what you interpret your imaginary friend to want?
Government sponsored religious tests are illegal.
Says who? I mean, how many?
Can we delete our own posts if we "report abuse" on ourselves? Gonna test this here - stand by...
Nope - that didn't work.
Sure you can – you just have to have sufficient screen names to report yourself under.
Keep trying. A year or two ago I tried this and found at the time that I needed at least four hits on the button using different names or IP addresses. Keep us posted, pls.
@Doris:Been there, done that. Since there is no decent evidence to any of the magic in Gullible's Travels, Parts 1 & 2, what makes it real for you?
Doris what makes the Bible real for me is "There is no book in the world, known or unknown to man, that can rival the authority of the Bible and its depth. This sacred book, that has been handed down to us through the many centuries, explicitly provides a record of the history not only of mankind on planet earth but also a record of things, places and time that occurred before the appearance of mankind on planet earth. The Bible discusses the history of the universe from a time and place that predates the fabricated big bang history that our so-called scholars have ignorantly invented and it also explicitly tells us why this fabrication was necessary, namely, that mankind will be delivered into the clutches of a delusion, to believe a lie about their origins because they refused to accept the plain truth about their own maker that constantly stares them in the face. The counterpart to this big bang theory is the Darwinian theory of evolution which is nothing more than a bogus piece of fraudulent work posing as science. That there is diversity of species is obvious even to a child growing up in any corner of the globe, however, that this diversity has come about through the force of natural selection alone is perhaps the epitome of stupidity. This elaborate extrapolation of common observation into a theory of our origins was masterminded by the devil in collaboration with many human assistants masquerading as scientists and philosophers, in a grand design to undermine the revelation of our origins which has already been given to us in the Holy Bible. The devil has always lied to people from the beginning, telling them that they are the masters of their own universe, that they have no need of or for a supreme God and they should answer only to themselves in everything. To buttress this evil lie, we have had thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of men and women working in all sorts of research facilities all over the world, trying hard and desperately to find some scientific evidence that nature and not God Almighty, made the universe and all the biodiversity that we see on our planet. In essence, they have convinced themselves that nature made itself. Nature itself has now become their god."
The quotation is taken from my spouse's book.
LOL! That was the funniest comment I have read today. Keep em coming man!
So, let me guess, the earth is only six thousand years old, dinosaurs were on Noah's arc. The Stars in the sky are just points of light made to look like they are light years away and that satan makes it seem like that to truck believers. Also, The devil put dinosaur bones in the earth to test your faith in god. The Chupacabra that some creationist museum has is proof that science is wrong about evolution(look that one up, its true).
All that is a load of horse hockey.
and the Flintstones is a doc-umentary...
YABBA DABBA DOOO!
Okee dokee. Well, I asked.
"The quotation is taken from my spouse's book."
That explains a lot...
And another quote from someone who hasn't the most basic understanding of science and yet has written off the works of astronomy, physics, biology, chemistry, and geology. The Bible isn't even good history.
Prayer Changes NOTHING.
A HALF OF THE DISCUSSION BOARD JUST VANISHED.......................MUST BE GOD.
XD
"god" should be taken out of the honor code altogether. no promotion of the christian god in gov't, military, etc. promote god in your off-time.
I concur.
Absolutely. If you can't be honorable without supernatural threats, then perhaps you should rethink your character.
GhostBallBusters:
You're quoting from the Old Testament... Within the Old Testament you will find Jesus hidden through out. (Will take some time to explain). The New Testament is Jesus revealed.
There are different dispensations...From Mt. Sinai until the time of Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection... man lived under the Law.
Since the resurrection of Jesus until now...man has been living under Grace.
Christ came and fulfilled the Law (10 Commandments) 2000 years ago... He was the only person who was able to do so.
Christ became SIN so that we could become the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God. He was crucified- judged and punished for all the sins that you or I will ever commit. All our sins are already forgiven...this includes past, present and future sins. Christ bore it all at the tree.... your health/healing, salvation, provisions etc. are already provided for. It's all a finished work...that's why after going through all the punishment at the cross, Jesus cried... "Finished"....Everything has already been paid for... so there's no need to live in fear or condemnation that God is out to get you...to punish or to judge you. He has already done all that in the body of His Son.
That's why the Bible tells us...FOR God SO Love the World that He Gave His only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER BELIEVE in Him, WILL NOT perish but have Everlasting Life.
Do you believe this.
There's no work for you to do...just believe.
(Matthew 5:17-18) “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, UNTIL HEAVEN AND EARTH DISAPPEAR, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished
The earth is STILL here.
Thanks...
That's what I wrote... Jesus did not abolish the Law... He fulfilled the Law. He was the only person who could and kept all 10 Laws perfectly.
2 Co 3:5-8 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves....but our sufficiency is of God;
Who also hath made us able ministers of the New Testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit. for the letter killeth but the spirit giveth life.
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away.
So the law was not abolished. It was fulfilled...The ministration of the Law brought glory to God...though it was fading in it's glory–why...because a greater glory was to come in Christ Jesus.
that's why the last verse says... How then will not the ministration of the spirit be even more glorious.
So I'm not in disagreement with you...
but we're living under the age of Grace... and not under the Law. It doesn't mean we're going to increase in sin but rather, when we believe right, we will live right.
We love, because He first Love us and Oh How Much He Loves us!!
Poor Observer
Don't just observe, ANALYZE!
How many times do I need to tell you that?
Poor Analizer,
Keeps coming up with factless comments and can't back them up.
LOL.
Poor Observer
So you agree with 'Jesus Beloved's' post? Otherwise, you were so genius to rebutt his/her original post with something that agree with it.
that's all silly fairy tale stuff. you don't need god or jesus to be a good person. and there is no such thing as 'sin' – it's a disgusting concept.
Why are you so angry.
Even the term you use...Yes, sin is disgusting to the Lord too... but he Loves the person who sins...
That's why He came and died on the cross, so their eternal self (Spirit) will be with Him forever.
May God reveal Himself and His nature to you.
God Bless.
i'm not angry. why are you making stereotypical assumptions? i'm very happy.
not sure why a non-existent god's opinion would matter.
have faith in your brothers and sisters - not an invisible sky fairy.
you will find you don't need god to be a good person.
hmmmm so many failures, so little time.
your god is all knowing
your god is all powerful
your god is all present
then he sits and watches every disgusting action vile humans commit without lifting a finger to stop that person, not to mention seeing he knows all, he knew before "creation" that all the horrible things done to women and children were going to happen and still "created" humans.
and please give me a better cop-out than "god gave us free will"
free will and an all knowing god don't co-exsist.
Nice try saving Observer's butt, Booty!
do you seriously desire ETERNAL life?
So did Jesus pay for the sin of disbelief?
ALL SINS were punished in the body of Christ on the cross.
That's why Christ Jesus said "Finished"... It's a finished work.
Jesus didn't go back to the cross because something was forgotten...EVERYTHING was paid for....
so everything you will ever need... know that it's already provided for. Health, Provision, Salvation etc.
how do you know "jesus" said finished?
were you there when he died?
did you speak directly with a first hand witness? instead of a thousand year old "holy book"
here is an even better question; how can a DEMI-GOD die?
jesus was of god and mary, so he was a demi-god.
@Jesus' Beloved,
Great then everyone goes to heaven. Awesome!
ME II
@Jesus' Beloved,
Great then everyone goes to heaven. Awesome
You are Saved by GRACE Through FAITH!
Grace is available to EVERYONE. The reason everyone isn't saved is because not EVERYONE puts Faith into what God Has done.
Faith is just your positive response to what Christ Jesus has already done through Grace.
"You are Saved by Skeletor Through THE HAVOC STAFF!
Castle Grayskull is available to EVERYONE. The reason everyone isn't saved is because not EVERYONE puts their own Havoc Staffs into what Hordak done.
Faith is just your positive response to what Skeletor has already done through His Havoc Staff."
This makes infinitely more sense.
@Jesus' Beloved,
But I thought Jesus paid for all sins, including disbelief, or lack of faith.
"Within the Old Testament you will find Jesus hidden through out."
With all the messianic stories floating around in those days, it is no surprise that any one of them would have fit nicely with the Torah. Thus an easy transition from the current belief. And thus since, anything that could remotely look like prophesy has been sought out to tie things up neatly between the screenplays.
If you were to read the Torah/Bible and see just the chiastic structures of each chapter... you would not doubt the divine God Breathe Words of the Bible.
And as a beloved Pastor loves to say..."And God doesn't waste His breath"
haha, it's reading the bible that turned atheists toward their path.
Been there, done that. Since there is no decent evidence to any of the magic in Gullible's Travels, Parts 1 & 2, what makes it real for you?
Here's an example that someone' posted just the other day on another article:
Christians claim that Genesis 3:15 is a reference to Jesus, because it refers to the offspring or seed of a woman. The general idea behind this is that men are the only ones who have "seed" and thus this must refer to a virgin birth. However, we shall see that the term "seed" is not limited to male reproductivity alone in the Torah.
The word translated to seed here is "zera", can also be translated to offspring, among other things. Genesis 3:15 is not the only place in the Scriptures where we see that a woman has seed, for example:
Gen 16:10: (Speaking to the woman, Hagar) The angel added, "I will so increase your descendants [Heb. zara] that they will be too numerous to count."
Gen 24:60: And they blessed Rebekah and said to her,
"Our sister, may you increase
to thousands upon thousands;
may your offspring [Heb. zara] possess
the gates of their enemies."
Unless it is understood that both Rabekah and Hagar bore children without se-x, which we know they didn't, then it makes no exegetical sense to assume that Genesis 3:15 refers to a virgin birth when it uses the same term used for children from se-xual unions. It might help to keep in mind that the term "seed" as translated here is interchangable with "offspring" – and we all know that women have offspring without virgin births.
Now, lets keep in mind that nowhere does it actually state that this is a messianic prophecy. The idea alone is unscriptural.
Scripture should interpret scripture.
That's why it's always better to read for oneself and ask God for wisdom in understanding it.
That way when you hear someone else's interpretation or misrepresentation of the Bible, you will know the truth for yourself.
Jesus' Beloved,
"when you hear someone else's interpretation or misrepresentation of the Bible, you will know the truth for yourself."
And that, my dear, is why there are nearly 40,000 denominations of Christianity (not including folks who go solo), each claiming that they have the correct interpretation. They disagree with each other, sometimes on quite basic ideas. They cannot ALL be correct, but they can ALL be wrong.
@ "BELOVED"..............AKA T R O L L.
1 KINGS VERSE 30-40.
when the religious folks can invoke thier "god" to set fire to water soaked lumber by invoking his name as elijah did in your "inspired by god" "written by god" book, then we may take you seriously; otherwise we will always call your god an illusion and you delusional.
🙂
Jesus' Beloved,
Yes, I know the standard spiel regarding the OT/NT "laws".
It is simply not possible that an all-knowing god ("God" or "Jesus" or whomever) wrote some of those incorrect and primitive things in the OT. See my short list of examples on the previous page. Did an all-knowing god really tell Moses that nonsense? Really? If Jesus believed it, he too was way off base, as was the "John" whom you quoted.
It's not nonsense...
The leper represents you and I...we are unclean...
The sacrificed bird represents Jesus... when we are dipped into the blood of Jesus...our uncleanness or leprosy is cleansed.
If a Bible verse furthers the cause, it is to be taken literally.
If a Bible verse is detrimental to the cause, it is either: taken out of context; is allegorical or metaphorical; refers to another verse somewhere else; is an ancient cultural anomaly; is a translation or copyist's error; means something other than what it actually says; is a mystery of god or not discernible by humans; or is just plain magic.
@Evangelical....,
Didn't you forget, "can only be understood by one who believes"?
According to Jesus, "...Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; or by the earth, for it is his footstool;...Simply let your "Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one." (Mat 5:34-37)
Ironic then, isn't it, that some people want so many oaths to involve the Bible in some way?
not really. it's like someone shouting "By Zeus!" instead of "Oh my God!" - invoking non-existent gods doesn't mean a thing. stop reading into it.
It is indeed. Invoking the Bible and religion to back up your promise means violating your religion, and making your oath invalid (from the evil one), if that verse is in your bible.
I think we can all agree that humans are susceptible to illusions and misperceptions. At most, all but 1 set of god(s) are illusions of the people that believe(d) in them. It is then a fact that most people believe in an illusory god. They feel it, love it, are devoted to it. Why is it so outrageous to think that not only most people are loving a false god, but all god lovers are in the same boat?
Why do you say "At most, all but 1 set of god(s) are illusions"?
If it is conceivable that 1 set may perhaps be real, why then can they not all be real? Or further, all be representations of the same divine will, merely appearing to the people in a guise they would accept?
So much similarity exists in the mythologies of the world, why is it outrageous to believe that all stem from the same basic beginning? Or even that that beginning is a big bang.
Not that I know one way or another. I just never really get why so many people on all sides get so upset over what someone else believes.
At a va.gue high level view, many may be compatible, but in detail most religions, I think, are mutually exclusive from other religions. e.g. "one true god", "no god, but god", etc.
ME II,
Not so much. Mostly the major three Abrahamic ones are exclusive. Most of the others tend toward a "these are our beliefs, those are yours" frame of mind, in my experience.
And I was largely talking from a high level, esoteric frame of mind, not necessarily on an individual believer's POV.
"Not so much. Mostly the major three Abrahamic ones are exclusive. Most of the others tend toward a "these are our beliefs, those are yours" frame of mind, in my experience."
in what way are abrahamic religions exclusive but other religions aren't? why do you think that?
"So much similarity exists in the mythologies of the world, why is it outrageous to believe that all stem from the same basic beginning?"
+++ because there are as many differences as similarities. it's outrageous because they all involve "magic" as an explanation.
Do they? Or do you interpret what is said as "magic" as the explanation?
How do you define "magic"? I'm willing to bet it's different than how I define it.
Is it inconceivable to believe in something Divine and still believe in science and logic?
You say the differences point to something more than human beings being human? Something more than cultural bias?
Does a story that teaches something important lose all meaning if it isn't strictly true?
Do they? Or do you interpret what is said as "magic" as the explanation?
+++ "goddidit" = magic. no proof. zero evidence.
How do you define "magic"? I'm willing to bet it's different than how I define it.
+++ magic: the power of influencing the course of events by using divine or supernatural forces. that's all the bible and christianity offer - explanations of magic, which means no explanations at all.
Is it inconceivable to believe in something Divine and still believe in science and logic?
+++ it's conceivable - it just means you arrest your logic at some point and believe in magic instead. religious brainwashing is very powerful. very intelligent men and women have fallen victim.
You say the differences point to something more than human beings being human? Something more than cultural bias?
+++ no, i didn't say that at all. you pointed out there are similarities as if that meant something – so i pointed out there are differences, too.
Does a story that teaches something important lose all meaning if it isn't strictly true?
+++ if it is NOT true but taught as if it is - yes, it loses something - the truth. if you say it's a fable, myth or fairy tale meant to teach a lesson, great. but if you try to pass it off as the truth and it's not - of course you lose something...
Religion is based on fear of the unknown. How many thunder gods have there been? How many are still being worshiped, now that we know the natural cause of thunder?
Belief can grow and change with time. I'm not arguing that all things once worshiped as Divine are Divine.
I don't think religion is based solely on the fear of the unknown. It's certainly part of the equation. But I think there is also an element of societal bonding involved and probably other elements as well.
I'm also not arguing for or against the existence of gods. Just...hoping to spark thought and conversation.