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Atheist gets her day at the Supreme Court
November 1st, 2013
04:39 PM ET

Atheist gets her day at the Supreme Court

By Bill Mears, CNN Supreme Court Producer

(CNN)– Linda Stephens has lived in her upstate New York community for more than three decades and has long been active in civic affairs.

But as an atheist, those views have put her at the center of a personal, political, and legal fight that has reached the U.S. Supreme Court.

The issue is public prayer at her local town board meetings, another contentious case over the intersection of faith and the civic arena.

The justices on Wednesday will hear arguments over whether Greece, New York, may continue sponsoring what it calls "inclusive" prayers at its open sessions, on government property.

Stephens and co-plaintiff Susan Galloway have challenged the policy, saying virtually all of those invited to offer legislative prayers over the years were Christians.

"It's very divisive when you bring government into religion," Stephens told CNN from her home.

"I don't believe in God, and Susan is Jewish, so to hear these ministers talk about Jesus and even have some of them who personally question our motives, it's just not appropriate."

The town of about 94,000 residents counters that after concerns from the two women and others, it sought diverse voices, including a Wiccan priestess, to offer invocations. Officials say they do not review the content of the remarks, nor censor any language.

"The faith of the prayer giver does not matter at all," said John Auberger, Greece's board supervisor, who began the practice shortly after taking office 1998. "We accept anyone who wants to come in and volunteer to give the prayer to open up our town meetings."

A federal appeals court in New York found the board's policy to be an unconstitutional violation of the Constitution's Establishment Clause, which forbids any government "endorsement" of religion.

Those judges said it had the effect of "affiliating the town with Christianity."

"To the extent that the state cannot make demands regarding the content of legislative prayers," said Judge Guido Calabresi, "municipalities have few means to forestall the prayer-giver who cannot resist the urge to proselytize. These difficulties may well prompt municipalities to pause and think carefully before adopting legislative prayer, but they are not grounds on which to preclude its practice."

Some legal experts say while the high court has allowed public prayers in general, it has not set boundaries on when they might become too sectarian in nature.

"The case involves a test between two different kinds of legal rules," said Thomas Goldstein, SCOTUSblog.com publisher and a leading Washington attorney.

"The Supreme Court has broadly approved legislative prayer without asking too many questions. But in other cases where the government is involved with religion, it has looked at lots of different circumstances. So we just don't know whether this court will be completely approving of legislative prayers in this instance."

The justices are now being asked to offer more firm guidelines over when and if such public prayers are constitutionally acceptable.

Felt marginalized

Galloway and Stephens say the elected board of the community outside Rochester almost always invited Christian clergy to open the meetings, usually with sectarian prayers. And they say they felt "marginalized" by the practice.

"When we tried to speak with the town, we were told basically if we didn't like the prayers, we didn't have to listen," said Stephens, "or could stand out in the hallway while they were going on."

Americans United for Separation of Church and State, the Washington-based group that is representing the two women, cited records showing that between 1999 and 2010, approximately two-thirds of the invocations contained the words "Jesus Christ," Jesus," Holy Spirit," or "Your Son."

And the lawsuit claims that from 1999 through 2007, every meeting had a Christian-only invocation. Following the complaints from the plaintiffs, four other faiths were invited in 2008, including a Baha'i leader and a Jewish lay person.

The plaintiffs say the Christian-only invocations resumed from January 2009 through June 2010. They claim those invited to the monthly meetings were selected by a city employee from a local guide that had no non-Christian faiths listed.

"Politics and religion simply don't mix, and they certainly don't mix in the local context of the Greece town council," said the Rev. Barry Lynn, AUSCS executive director.

"The town seems to take the position that because once or twice over a decade, it hears from someone of a different religion, that somehow is inclusive. It trivializes what's going here - a local government that should be willing and interested in participation of all its citizens, it wants those citizens to participate in an almost inevitably Christian prayer, in order to begin doing their business."

Different rulings

While the 2nd Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals in New York last year unanimously ruled against Greece's policy, other courts around the country have found such invocations - if inclusive and limited in scope - to be permissible.

Congress regularly opens its sessions with a prayer. Wednesday's invocation by House Chaplain the Rev. Patrick Conroy began: "Eternal God, we give you thanks for giving us another day. Once again, we come to ask wisdom, patience, peace, and understanding for the members of this people's House."

Nearly 120 members of Congress, mostly Republicans, along with several state attorneys general have filed supporting legal briefs backing the city. So has the Obama administration.

"The history of prayers offered in connection with legislative deliberation in this country makes clear that a legislative body need not affirmatively solicit a court-mandated variety of different religious faiths– from inside and outside the borders governed by the legislative body– in order to avoid running afoul of the Establishment Clause," said Justice Department lawyers' in their amicus brief.

The Alliance Defending Freedom, a legal ministry based in Scottsdale, Arizona, filed the lawsuit on behalf of the Greece Town Board, saying the Supreme Court has upheld the practice of government bodies "to acknowledge America's religious heritage and invoke divine guidance and blessings upon their work."

"A few people should not be able to extinguish the traditions of our nation merely because they heard something they didn't like," said Brett Harvey, an attorney for the group. "Because the authors of the Constitution invoked God's blessing on public proceedings, this tradition shouldn't suddenly be deemed unconstitutional."

Stephens realizes the stakes are high for her community and for the law as a whole. But on a personal level, this legal fight has been tough.

"I've received something of a backlash, both Susan and me," the retired librarian said. "Threatening letters, some vandalism to my property, things like that. The prayers, and all the controversy, it makes you feel like an outcast, like we don't count in our town."

The case is Town of Greece, N.Y. v. Galloway (12-696). A ruling is expected by early summer.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Atheism • Belief • Christianity • Church and state • Courts

soundoff (6,237 Responses)
  1. Jesus' Beloved

    @Joey:If he loved everyone unconditionally then everyone would go to heaven no matter what. If that is not the case then god does not love everyone unconditionally. Words have meanings, in this case if I have to believe in Jesus as a condition to get into heaven then god doesn't love me unconditionally.

    How does one receive the love of another? You BELIEVE it.
    If your spouse or child doesn’t believe that you love them even though you love them with all your heart, their approach to life will be very different than if they believe and are secure in that knowledge.

    You are being groomed to reign... to get rid of the carnal (just perceiving all things with the 5 senses)...
    So believing is just the first step in your destiny to reign. Right living will stem from right believing. That's what righteousness is.

    November 5, 2013 at 2:01 pm |
    • Well Duh

      "If your spouse or child doesn’t believe that you love them even though you love them with all your heart, their approach to life will be very different than if they believe and are secure in that knowledge."

      What if they believe you love them, but you don't?

      "You are being groomed to reign..."

      Reign what/whom?

      November 5, 2013 at 2:14 pm |
      • Jesus' Beloved

        Love is defined as not our love for God, but His love for us.
        It’s not enough to know God loves us.. we must believe (Already explained why with example).
        1John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath for us.

        We are destined to reign with Christ.

        November 5, 2013 at 2:22 pm |
        • Doc Vestibule

          God's primary characteristic is jealousy – it says so in the 1st commandment.
          Jealous,wrathful love does not make for a healthy relationship.

          November 5, 2013 at 2:28 pm |
        • Well Duh

          "We are destined to reign with Christ."

          What would we be reigning over?

          November 5, 2013 at 2:28 pm |
        • Well Duh

          "It’s not enough to know God loves us.. we must believe (Already explained why with example)."

          And this is just confusing. How can you know something, yet NOT believe it?

          November 5, 2013 at 2:31 pm |
        • Jesus' Beloved

          DV
          How you see God will determine how you receive from Him.

          Read the difference between the Mosaic Covenant and the Abrahamic Covenant.
          As I said before, God gave the earth to man (Adam) to have full authority over.
          That is why whenever God does anything on earth it is usually through a covenant.

          From Egypt to Mt. Sinai not a single Israelite died- whether they complained or not. After they told God, "ALL that you command we will do." They wanted God to Bless them based on their works instead of blessing them as before because of His grace.
          "My children perish for lack of knowledge"

          November 5, 2013 at 2:39 pm |
        • I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that

          [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRNZHFr69t4&w=640&h=360]

          November 5, 2013 at 2:42 pm |
        • Cleetus Allreetus Alrightus

          Quoting a book a fiction will only prove......... you're quoting a book of fiction.

          November 5, 2013 at 2:43 pm |
        • Doc Vestibule

          God and I have different views of what is righteous.
          I wouldn't consider anyone who would throw their vir/gin daughters over to a revenous mob to be ra/ped as a righteous man, but God does.
          And I don't remember hearing how Moses reacted when the innocent first born sons of Egypt all lay dead....

          November 5, 2013 at 2:43 pm |
        • Joey

          Since it is a fact that Adam never existed there was no original sin and thus no need for that whole Jesus sacrifice thing. Thanks for playing.

          November 5, 2013 at 2:53 pm |
        • Robert Brown

          Doc, would you die/kill to protect the ones you love? If so, then you have a jealous love.

          November 5, 2013 at 4:07 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      In order to believe, you must first believe.
      Makes sense.
      How does one receive the love of another?
      Love is the subjective state in which one's happiness is contingent on the happiness of another.
      It can be physically exemplified in the acts of individuals. Consistent, repeated examples consti/tute proof that the purported emotion (which of course takes place inside human beings singly and nowhere else).

      November 5, 2013 at 2:18 pm |
      • lol??

        Love of truth and The truth kinda go together.

        2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

        November 5, 2013 at 2:27 pm |
    • Topher

      God does love you. Otherwise, He wouldn't have taken your punishment for you. But God is also just. And if you're not interested in Him, you'll just get what you deserve anyway. He's not going to force you into heaven against your will.

      November 5, 2013 at 2:24 pm |
      • Well Duh

        "Otherwise, He wouldn't have taken your punishment for you"

        What punishment did I deserve and why?

        November 5, 2013 at 2:26 pm |
        • Topher

          Well Duh

          "What punishment did I deserve and why?"

          Would you consider yourself to be a good person?

          November 5, 2013 at 2:27 pm |
        • Well Duh

          Why can't you answer the question?

          November 5, 2013 at 2:29 pm |
        • I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that

          Well Duh

          Probably because it would poke too many holes in his argument.

          November 5, 2013 at 2:31 pm |
        • Doc Vestibule

          Stalin does not send anyone to the Gulag.
          It is those who have hardened their hearts against him who send themselves to the Gulag through their bourgoise atti/tudes and counter-revolutionary actions.
          This was not Stalin's plan at all.
          He truly wants everyone to go to the Worker's Paradise and it grieves him that so many harden their hearts against him.
          But he will not force anyone into the Worker's Paradise against their wishes.
          He respects their free will.
          If you don't want to go to the Gulag, just open your heart to the love of Stalin.

          Sound familiar at all?

          November 5, 2013 at 2:41 pm |
        • Topher

          Well Duh

          I am answering the question. Have you ever told a lie? If so, the Bible says ALL liars will have their part in the lake of fire.

          Have you ever stolen something regardless of when it was or what its value was?

          Ever used God's name in place of a curse word?

          Ever looked at someone and had a lustful thought? If so, Jesus said when you do that you've committed adultery with them in your heart.

          November 5, 2013 at 3:03 pm |
        • Well Duh

          "If so, the Bible says ALL liars will have their part in the lake of fire"

          So Jesus took my punishment in the lake of fire for me so I don't have to go?

          November 5, 2013 at 3:10 pm |
        • Topher

          Well Duh

          "So Jesus took my punishment in the lake of fire for me so I don't have to go?"

          Depends on whether you've received the gift Christ is offering you. He did pay the fine you deserve to pay because you've sinned (broken God's laws) and God would be just in punishing you. But God loves you and that's why He's making you this offer. Are you interested?

          November 5, 2013 at 3:20 pm |
        • Well Duh

          "He did pay the fine you deserve to pay"

          He did this how?

          November 5, 2013 at 3:26 pm |
        • Charm Quark

          Topherism
          When I do not have a clue how to answer a question, I simply ask foolish questions to avoid having to answer. I do this most of the time. When really backed into a corner I just run away like the coward I am and pretend I was never involved.

          November 5, 2013 at 3:27 pm |
        • Charm Quark

          Topherism one of many
          When I do not have a clue how to answer a question, I simply ask foolish questions to avoid having to answer. I do this most of the time. When really backed into a corner I just run away like the cow.ard I am and pretend I was never involved.

          November 5, 2013 at 3:32 pm |
        • Topher

          Well Duh

          "He did this how?"

          First, let's understand WHY He was able to take the punishment for you. Jesus was both 100 percent man and 100 percent God. This is important because we need both sides represented. As a man, He's a descendant of Adam and represents us. The Bible calls Him the Last Adam. With the First Adam, sin came into the world, and with sin ... death. With the Last Adam, we are given life everlasting. Now, with Him also being fully God, He lived a perfect, sinless life. This is important because since He had no sin, He was able to take the punishment for someone else (since He didn't need to be punished Himself.) Remember in the OT how they used to sacrifice the lambs to cover up their sins? When John the Baptist saw Him, he said, "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world." Jesus became our perfect sacrifice. So when Christ died on the cross, He bore our sins for us. In fact, the Bible says "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." And what is just as important, Jesus rose from the grave three days later, not only defeating death so that we may live, but also proving who He claimed to be.

          November 5, 2013 at 3:37 pm |
        • Bob

          The whole Jesus-sacrifice thing is a steaming pile of bull-do. How is it again that your omnipotent being couldn't do his saving bit without the whole silly Jesus hoopla? And how was Jesus' death a "sacrifice", when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers? Pretty pathetic "god" that you've made for yourself there.

          Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
          Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
          http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

          November 5, 2013 at 3:40 pm |
        • hawaiiguest

          Ah the Jesus "sacrifice". The biggest excuse for removing personal responsibility due to a sacrifice that wasn't a sacrifice. Our supposed "proper place for sin" being taken by Jesus who isn't even in hell right now. Then there's the utter stupidity of being 100% human and god, while the two are mutually exclusive.
          Completely idiotic, and requiring the kind of astounding mental gymnastics and intellectual dishonesty of people like Ray Comfort.

          November 5, 2013 at 3:44 pm |
        • Well Duh

          '"Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world." Jesus became our perfect sacrifice.'

          Why was it necessary for the human manifestation of God to be sacrificed to to take away our sins?

          November 5, 2013 at 3:45 pm |
        • Charm Quark

          Topher
          After three days, rigor mortis would have set in, the body would have bloated giving off a terrible stench and maggots would have begun devouring the flesh, one ugly zombie. Did those that saw the arisen christ help by plucking out the maggots? Now Lazarus of Bethany was a whole other bag of disgusting.

          November 5, 2013 at 3:48 pm |
        • Doc Vestibule

          @Topher
          Is destroying another's property a sin? To my thinking, it is tantamount to theft – but not so to God!

          Jesus destroyed 2,000 pigs that didn't belong to him, wrecking the life of teh farmer to whom they belonged.
          (Mark 5:8, Matthew 8:28, Luke 8:27)

          November 5, 2013 at 3:56 pm |
        • Topher

          Well Duh

          "Why was it necessary for the human manifestation of God to be sacrificed to to take away our sins?"

          Because since we are already corrupt (as we've all sinned) there's no way for us to be worthy of heaven ourselves. There's nothing we can do to earn our way there. We don't meet the standard of perfection. But God loved us so much and doesn't want us to go to hell (though that's what we deserve for breaking His laws) that He stepped away from His throne and took the punishment for us. And the Bible tells us that there is no remittance of sin without the shedding of blood. That's what Christ did for us. Isn't that amazingly? I don't know of a kinder act anyone could do.

          November 5, 2013 at 4:00 pm |
        • HotAirAce

          Topher continues to demonstrate his PhD in silly beliefs – he is amongst the very best at Piling crap Higher and Deeper, with heavy emphasis on crap.

          November 5, 2013 at 4:05 pm |
        • Joey

          I can think of a lot of things kinder than sending your only son down to earth to be tortured to forgive the sins of people considering all he had to do was forgive the sins of people. No torture involved.

          November 5, 2013 at 4:07 pm |
        • Robert Brown

          Joey, blood is a unique substance, there can be no remission of sin without it.

          November 5, 2013 at 4:10 pm |
        • Well Duh

          "And the Bible tells us that there is no remittance of sin without the shedding of blood."

          Sounds pretty asinine to me.

          November 5, 2013 at 4:17 pm |
        • Well Duh

          "Joey, blood is a unique substance"

          Can you name a substance that isn't?

          " there can be no remission of sin without it."

          Why not?

          November 5, 2013 at 4:19 pm |
        • Madtown

          there can be no remission of sin without it.
          --–
          Why not?

          November 5, 2013 at 4:22 pm |
        • Joey

          Robert, are you saying that god is not powerful enough to forgive sins without blood?

          November 5, 2013 at 4:40 pm |
        • Well Duh

          @Joey
          "Robert, are you saying that god is not powerful enough to forgive sins without blood?"

          Apparently His hands are tied on that one.

          November 5, 2013 at 4:46 pm |
      • Fan2C

        "He's not going to force you into heaven against your will."

        Aw, gee, Toph, I'd love to go to a heaven. I just don't/can't believe that your Israeli "God" character has anything to do with it.

        November 5, 2013 at 2:42 pm |
        • lol??

          Why would you want to go to Heaven when the pwogwessives made it right here for the here and now. Now don't miss out ya hea!!

          November 5, 2013 at 2:58 pm |
      • HotAirAce

        The alleged son was allegedly immortal and allegedly omniscient so very likely fully aware of what was allegedly going to happen in the few years he allegedly spent as an alleged mortal. Given that an alleged god's timeframe is allegedly much longer than a mere mortal, I suggest the alleged pain it allegedly experienced was more like a pinprick to the alleged supernatural being allegedly sent to Earth. In short, what sacrifice?

        November 5, 2013 at 4:19 pm |
      • Dandintac

        Topher, have you ever truly thought about the Jesus story critically? I mean really think about it logically.
        God creates man flawed, and being all-knowing, knows he will be imperfect, yet demands that he must be perfect. So he sets man up for failure. Then instead of just forgiving us, he can't do this. So he creates a special place of punishment, Hell, where we will be cast into a burning lake of fire and burned and tortured for all eternity–just for simple human imperfections. Think–would YOU burn your own child for all eternity–for any reason at all? Let alone something like lying?
        So, he creates a loophole. He sends his son, really himself, to be a blood sacrifice, because somehow, that's what he wants in order to forgive us for the way he made us. He wants blood. Now think–what kind of a bloodthirsty monster would demand blood in order to forgive? I can forgive MY kids for lying or "sinning", and I'm a mere mortal–not all powerful or supposedly "all good". Somehow, all of our "sins".
        So then he raises his son from the dead, to live forever–oh–wait, so it's really no sacrifice at all, is it?
        The story is absurd, and I do not understand how any person with a capacity for rational thought can actually believe it. I think most people are brainwashed into believing it as children, and also they don't stop and think about it.

        November 6, 2013 at 1:34 am |
        • lol??

          Your very first point of criticism is a straw man argument and not criticizing standard Christian doctrine. Try again.

          November 6, 2013 at 7:59 am |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      "How does one receive the love of another? You BELIEVE it."

      That is not true, I show love (caring) for people that don't know me and they receive that love (caring) whither they believe I love them or not. I don't set the condition of my love on whither they believe I care.....that is what you god does. I can love people that don't believe I love them. And to take it a step further I would never treat my WORST ENEMY the way the god of the bible says he is going to treat me simply for my non-belief. Nice god you have there.

      November 5, 2013 at 3:03 pm |
      • fred

        Tell me about your Matthew 5 reading and what was revealed. I lost the thread

        November 5, 2013 at 4:14 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          fred,

          It was revealed Jesus said some good things, and had some bad advice...nothing that leads me to think he was divine at all though. Not sure what you were looking for from me. From my recollection you were trying to us it as as some way to verify another reality...not that makes any sense.

          Would you like to take a stab at my question of why rewards and punishments based on "belief" is in any way ethical?

          November 5, 2013 at 8:50 pm |
        • fred

          Blessed are the Cheesemakers
          Reality includes that which happens outside of the 5 senses. I had hoped you would sense there was something more than the written words of Matthew 5.

          "why rewards and punishments based on "belief" is in any way ethical?"
          =>As far as God is concerned perfect infinite justice and perfect infinite love are not compartmentalized. Mercy and grace are not one side of the scale with justice on the other side as man weighs out rewards and punishments. Is it ethical for the burning holiness of God to incinerate anything impure if that is who God is as described by Isaiah. Is it ethical for the loving mercy of God to spare the rapists and the like?
          This is why Christ took on the sins and impurities of man upon himself to fully atone for perfect justice. That sin was covered by Christs love so there is nothing to cleanse or that gets incinerated by God burning holiness.
          =>It is not belief as we would believe the sun will come up. Belief in Christ a change of heart where one is born again of the spirit (made new, a new creature in Christ). It is a complete turn about. You once thought and did what would be incinerated by the approach of Gods holiness. Now suddenly there is love, joy overflowing from a heart that desires to be Christ like. You are the reward you do not "get a reward". We are Gods gift to Christ for his work on the cross for redeeming us from punishment.
          If you want nothing to do with Christ God is not punishing you as you are the one who wanted no part in holiness or giving up your way of life to be swept up into the way of Christ..
          =>The question you are asking is why won't God think the way I do. Why doesn't God set up a construct that does not include right/wrong or good/evil. There should either be no God or God should bow down to my standards of ethics.

          November 6, 2013 at 1:57 am |
        • Observer

          Yep. We are supposed to KILL all adulterers, unruly kids, fortune tellers, gays, etc. So instead Jesus accepts the punishment, although we aren't sure just how painful it is for someone to be punished in heaven. That is, of course, if you believe that such punishment is justified. Maybe you don't feel such punishment is warranted. Maybe you just have more compassion and understanding of reality than God does. Maybe you realize that killing every disrespectful kid would end humanity with this generation.

          November 6, 2013 at 2:13 am |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          fred, I had to read no farther than the first sentence.

          "Reality includes that which happens outside of the 5 senses."

          Please explain how you can know this? What input are you using to assertain this other reality that no one has ever objectively shown to exist? You are claiming specific knowledge...To know something is to have an understanding that is consistent with material reality, and for which we can show how this consistency with the truth can be verified. Knowledge, thus, could be described as being a belief that has been tested against the infallible standard of reality, and has passed the test. What objective test did this reality pass? And how did you test it without your 5 senses?

          "Is it ethical for the loving mercy of God to spare the r@pists and the like?"

          Ummm, yes (according to Christianity) as long as they BELIEVE in Jesus and ask forgiveness they are spared. Why should a r@pist be spared because he believes but I don't r@pe and am incinerated? Don't you see how truly UNETHICAL that is to arbitarily base that on belief?

          "If you want nothing to do with Christ God is not punishing you as you are the one who wanted no part in holiness or giving up your way of life to be swept up into the way of Christ."

          No, I am not the least bit convinced that Jesus was in any way a "god" nor that the philosophy you describe where I am "saved" if I only "believe" that he was, is "holy", it is not. It is arbitrary and has nothing to do with "justice" or "mercy". It is possibly the most vile concept ever introduced to man...the idea that acceptence of a specific "belief", EVEN IF IT WERE TRUE, somehow witholds justice and imparts mercy. It is absurd, it is immoral and it is unethical. If your god were able to convince me 100% that all of that is true I STILL wouldn't worship him because it would make him the most dis.picable tyrannical despot, not a god worthy of my love.

          "The question you are asking is why won't God think the way I do."

          I am abe to think and reason and therefore I CAN determine what is moral and ethical based on that thought. If you just follow the morals and ethics as laid out to you from a book that you have to read (SIGHT, ONE OF THE 5 SENSES), you are just following orders. You are not acting morally, you are obeying, nothing more. If my child does not steal because I told him not to steal, he is obedient but not acting morally, if he does not steal because he knows it harms someone else, he is acting morally. There is a big difference.

          November 6, 2013 at 10:17 am |
        • fred

          Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          "Reality includes that which happens outside of the 5 senses." What input are you using to assertain this other reality
          =>Observation of miracles. I have personally observed miraculous answer to prayer. Certainly, they could all be explained as anomalies and as to medical miracles doctors response is they don't know it just happens sometimes. No scientific evidence of God in the process yet the faithful attribute the miracle to prayer and or God while the non believer sees only the materialistic. I recall one time where I wrongfully was patting myself on the back for leading someone to Christ which transformed their life. I told her I was led by the Spirit to give her my Bible. She said "Fred yours was the 5th Bible I was Given and I never read it but passed it onto someone else" That was in a secular setting where I was helping parents with drug addicted kids. Now, we could say 5 Bibles given to one person was a coincidence or she must have been whining to an untold number of Christians so 5 is no surprise, yet again we are left with perception of miracle not evidence.

          =>The words of Abraham down to John in the Bible. They all addressed the promised land and for those who never stepped into it (including Moses) while alive it was the hope in the promise. Christians have a hope in the promise. This hope is more than a delusion or we have had 5 billion (best estimate of believers since creation) some odd humans that have had the same hope in the last 6,000 years in the same promise all under the same delusion. I find it unreasonable to think 5 billion fell for a lie or were delusional.

          =>a lion will kill non biological cubs when taking over a pride yet it is not unethical for the lion. Man today has a tuff time killing a 3 time rapist or even a murder. More than thou shall not kill is at work as it is mercy and grace that is unreasonable reflecting on man being more than animal. This more than animal feature of man seems to be picking up on a standard that transends time and culture.
          =>If we eliminate people with bias based upon neurological deficiency and negative religious anchored emotional experience we find that virtually all mankind believes there is something greater than self. Historically God and gods were that something since the earliest recorded expressions of man. When we get to a statistic that is above 90% it is unreasonable to assume only the slim minority exhibits the common trait or awareness of "God"

          =>Jesus like it or not altered reality with only 3 years of ministry and a handful of believers. The power of the Holy Spirit in Christ and the handful is self evident. Did Jesus, Mohamed etc. simply touch a human need or did they touch that something which is greater than man ?

          "Knowledge, thus, could be described as being a belief that has been tested against the infallible standard of reality"
          =>why then are scientific conclusions constantly being turned upside down? Reality did not change our understanding or perception changed leading to new discovery.

          "What objective test did this reality pass?"
          =>what makes us individuals is subjective otherwise we are simply unique just like everyone else.
          =>It cannot be objective as perspective is filtered through the lens of accumulated physical and individual difference over time. i.e. it is subjective by nature.

          "And how did you test it without your 5 senses?"
          =>you die to self
          =>if you cannot do that then step out in faith. Ask God to reveal what is behind the delusion of this world then follow exactly what you are told to do in order to see it. A blind step into that which you think is not real.

          "Why should a r@pist be spared and (I)am incinerated?"
          =>everyone is incinerated before the burning holiness of God. Why should anyone be spared is the question. No one can meet the standards of God because we have the knowledge of good and evil.
          We cannot approach God in sin so God provided a way. Jesus said I am the way. That way was to take all your sin from you and put in on himself at the cross. Your sin was covered by love, mercy and grace that was Jesus. Why, so you will not be incinerated. Being a rapist or atheist at some point on your timeline from an eternal perspective cannot be seen in the presence of perfect goodness.

          November 6, 2013 at 3:48 pm |
    • drturi

      Please Google "Halloween Suicide Girls Born Witches Dr. Turi" and have a blast! Pass it on if you like it! Check also – Google "Anarchy Coming To America? dr.turi"

      November 5, 2013 at 9:58 pm |
  2. Doc Vestibule

    The great problem with a literal interpretation of the Bible is that the believer can rationalize a hundred prophecies that came true – but it takes only one example of innaccuracy to shatter the illusion of biblical inerrancy.
    When faced with such an example, the literalist typically falls back on a number of standard double-thinkings:
    1) You're taking it out of context
    2) It's a translation error
    3) It's a metaphor you don't understand
    4) God works in mysterious ways
    5) Obstinate denial no matter what (ostrich syndrome)

    They cannot fathom or abide even a single hole poked in the Biblical narrative becuase to admit that such a thing can exist is to unravel the entire mythology and their worldview.

    What many of them fail to realize is that to those who view the world through the prism of the scientific method, identifying flaws, inaccuracies or omissions in scientific hypotheses is to be expected and welcomed! Every new bit of datum adds to understanding. Disproving a hypothesis isn't something to be avoided – it is the default scientific mindset.

    November 5, 2013 at 1:57 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      One of my instructors brought up the idea of divinely inspired fiction. Apparently the parts of the Bible that don't fit historical facts or are awkward in some other way can be swept under that rug.

      November 5, 2013 at 2:00 pm |
      • I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that

        Fundamentalist Christians must employ a permanent goalpost moving team.

        November 5, 2013 at 2:05 pm |
    • Hope this helps

      Yes great point. And just because you take a biology text book literally YOU MUST ALSO take Mia Angelo's poetry serious and believe caged birds do speak English.

      But you don't, why? Because 1) you read in context.

      November 5, 2013 at 2:06 pm |
      • I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that

        No, it doesn't help.

        November 5, 2013 at 2:10 pm |
      • Joey

        In what context do you think it is acceptable for an army to go into a town and kill everyone but the female virgins?

        November 5, 2013 at 2:14 pm |
        • I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that

          Boredom?

          November 5, 2013 at 2:27 pm |
      • Doc Vestibule

        In order for a hypotehsis to be considered scientifically sound, it must be observable, testable and repeatable.
        Before a scientist can advance a hypothesis (which is conjecture) as a theory (which is accetped to be true by the scientific community at large) each step in the process of testing the potulate is meticulously docu/mented so that anybody who cares to do so may do the testing on their own and observe the results.
        When enough people do just that and get the exact same results, a theory can be used a building block for additional theories.
        That's why all engineering is based on prior art. Man couldn't build a calculator before he built an abacus.

        Poetry, fiction and other such artistic endeavours have no requirements for testability or provability and as such are not taken as literal truth.
        The same is true of mythology.

        November 5, 2013 at 2:26 pm |
        • Hope this helps

          Exactly read history (Kings, Samuel, the Gospels, Acts) as history

          Read poetry as poetry, Psalms and Proverbs.

          You are on the correct track.

          November 5, 2013 at 2:33 pm |
        • drturi

          Please Google "Halloween Suicide Girls Born Witches Dr. Turi" and have a blast! Pass it on if you like it! Check also – Google "Anarchy Coming To America? dr.turi"

          November 5, 2013 at 9:59 pm |
        • Doc Vestibule

          Apocrayphal, historical fiction perhaps.
          No more literally true than The Epic of Gilgamesh, Beowulf or The Iliad.

          November 5, 2013 at 2:36 pm |
        • HotAirAce

          The Smithsonian definitively says The Babble is *not* a historical docu?ment. That's good enough for me to continue to consider it just a lousy bit of fiction.

          November 5, 2013 at 2:42 pm |
        • Joey

          The Gospels are 100% not history.

          November 5, 2013 at 2:54 pm |
        • Hope this helps

          Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things that have been accomplished among us, just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word have delivered them to us, it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, that you may have certainty concerning the things you have been taught. (Luke 1:1-4, ESV)

          Does not read like the Iliad. If it concerns you then study the text of the gospels, they are the most reliable history of that time period. That is why historians still use both testaments when understanding that time period.

          November 5, 2013 at 3:22 pm |
        • fred

          Joey
          "100% not history" is nothing short of proof that your bias and hate against God has blinded you. A great deal of Luke's historical accounts have been validated. Scholars pretty much agree John the Baptist was for real and was a baptizer. Most of Pauls letters have been validated and accepted.
          You may want to remove the word gospels and pick on one of the Old Testament books where there is less evidence due to passage of time.

          November 5, 2013 at 3:24 pm |
        • Hope this helps

          @HAA



          You still are pushing that fallacy not haven grown in over 2 years. Again once again



          The Smithsonian quote regarding the Gospels

          These Biblical records can be and are used as are other ancient documents in archeological work. For the most part, historical events described took place and the peoples cited really existed. This is not to say that every event as reported in the historical books happened exactly as stated.



          What you are referring to is ONLY the first part of Genesis. There is no dispute over the Gospels.

          November 5, 2013 at 3:30 pm |
        • Ummmm

          The report actually states it is not an historical doc_ument. You must not have finisted reading it.

          November 5, 2013 at 3:44 pm |
        • HotAirAce

          Hopeless, because you couldn't get to the end of the Smithsonian's statement:

          "In the best analysis, the Bible is a religious book, not an historical document."

          Fuck You!

          November 5, 2013 at 3:56 pm |
        • Doc Vestibule

          The Gospels are not historically accurate.
          For example, the reason given for Mary and Joseph's pilgimage to Bethlehem while Mary was pregnant was to be "taxed and counted" – but the Roman Empire didn't do it that way.
          Nobody was required to travel back to where their parents were born to pay their taxes – the Romans had tax collectors who went door to door – and we have reams of evidence for this.
          The Romans were fastidious record keepers. The official, government doc/uments that have been unearthed from that era (and there are plenty) contradict the Biblical narrative.
          Why would an empire as vast as Rome change its methods of taxation only once and then fail to record it?

          November 5, 2013 at 4:02 pm |
        • Doc Vestibule

          @Hope
          We have docu/ments that show Gilgamesh was a real person.
          Archaeologists have unearthed the remains of his Kingdom of Uruk and the mighty walls he had built as described in the Epic of Gilgamesh.
          That doesn't mean that he was a demi-god who ruled for 120 years and took a trip to the underworld.

          November 5, 2013 at 4:06 pm |
        • fred

          HotAirAce
          You are starting to sound desperate, could you perhaps be feeling a bit of the truth entering your heart? When anyone goes to the extreme to cherry pick a statement as you did it's time to sit back and reevaluate. The Smithsonian full statement on the Bible also says:
          On the other hand, much of the Bible, in particular the historical books of the old testament, are as accurate historical documents as any that we have from antiquity and are in fact more accurate than many of the Egyptian, Mesopotamian, or Greek histories.

          ‘These Biblical records can be and are used as are other ancient documents in archeological work. For the most part, historical events described took place and the peoples cited really existed. This is not to say … that every event as reported in the historical books happened exactly as stated.’

          November 5, 2013 at 4:11 pm |
        • Science Works

          Fred shows up on cue !

          November 5, 2013 at 4:15 pm |
        • Joey

          In my opinion the Gospels are historical fiction. The fact that the people who wrote them used the names of places where they lived doesn't prove that anything in them actually happened. So if you want me to believe that Jesus rose from the dead after three days you are going to have to prove it without using the bible.

          November 5, 2013 at 4:15 pm |
        • fred

          Joey
          Harry Potter is a fictional story whereas the Gospels are a historical account of the people, time and place surrounding the greatest historical figure of all time Jesus. It is the full account of the beginnings of Christianity which to this day govern our World View. Certainly there is a minority that rejects God and anything related to God but that does not change the reality that is and even you live in the reality that Jesus Christ presented. Your opinion does not and cannot change reality that is.

          November 5, 2013 at 4:37 pm |
        • Joey

          I believe that Jesus existed and then he died and some people made up some stories about him, but that is as far as I am willing to go.

          November 5, 2013 at 4:50 pm |
        • HotAirAce

          fred, I'm guilty of cherry picking and am desperate but you and hopeless are not? Did I not correctly quote the Smithsonian's opinion? Too bad for you that there is no actual evidence for the supernatural claims in The Babble *and* one of the most respected inst!tutions in the world disagrees with delusional believer claims about The Babble. Thou projects too much!

          November 5, 2013 at 4:57 pm |
        • Hope this helps

          @Doc, I wish you were right about the Roman Census.. but that is not the case
          ".archeological discoveries prove beyond doubt that regular enrollment of taxpayers was a feature of Ro­man rule and have shown that a census was taken every fourteen years. "

          http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2008/10/16/A-Brief-Comment-on-the-Census-in-Luke-2.aspx

          November 7, 2013 at 10:55 am |
        • Hope this helps

          " prove it without using the bible." Why?
          Prove to me Biology without using a biology concept. Prove to me the holocaust without referencing the holocaust.

          That is an absurd standard.

          November 7, 2013 at 10:57 am |
        • Observer

          Hope this helps.

          " prove it without using the bible." Why? That is an absurd standard"

          What actually is absurd is pretending that there is ONLY one book of biology or ONE book about the Holocaust.

          Using the Bible to "prove itself" is absurd.

          November 7, 2013 at 11:10 am |
        • Doc Vestibule

          @Hope
          Yes, of course the Roman Empire had regular censuses. We've got them in hand in the modern age.
          In Josephus' account of the census in 6 C.E., he explicitly states that those people taxed were assessed of their possessions, including lands and livestock. In other words, the census takers were also the tax assessors.
          Imagine a system of taxation based on people returning to their ancestral homes, going back a thousand years in the case of Joseph.Do you think the Romans would have required them to come back to Palestine, carrying everything they owned? How would the tax officials have assessed their land?
          If any such census had been taken, the dislocation to which it would have led would have been world-wide. Roman historians would not have failed to record it.

          November 7, 2013 at 11:30 am |
    • lol??

      Plenty of bone headed scientists and no doubt a great number of psychopaths in their pack.

      November 5, 2013 at 2:16 pm |
      • Well Duh

        What, are you in the second grade?

        "They are just a bunch of poo-poo doody faces"

        November 5, 2013 at 2:22 pm |
    • lol??

      Months ago I commented on the peer review process breaking down in the interest of profits and publication.

      November 5, 2013 at 2:18 pm |
      • Well Duh

        ..and no one noticed. The End.

        November 5, 2013 at 2:24 pm |
        • lol??

          Duh Duh, are you a Sodominian bully??

          November 5, 2013 at 2:50 pm |
        • Well Duh

          Fiddle sticks, who let the cat outta the bag?

          November 5, 2013 at 3:03 pm |
      • Doc Vestibule

        Becuase there's a great deal of money in theoretical physics?

        November 5, 2013 at 2:31 pm |
        • lol??

          You just HAVE to believe in uncorrupted science.

          November 5, 2013 at 2:47 pm |
  3. Haha

    These women are a couple of t urds.

    November 5, 2013 at 1:36 pm |
    • Just the Facts Ma'am...

      Actually, they are the punch in the turdbowl...

      November 5, 2013 at 1:54 pm |
    • I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that

      Maybe (I don't know them), but tvrds who respect secularism.

      November 5, 2013 at 1:59 pm |
  4. Bobbie Jo Justice

    I'm curious, are all of you "christians" obeying your sky daddy's word and murdering everyone who work on the sabbath as listed in exodus 35:2?

    For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a day of sabbath rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it is to be put to death.

    November 5, 2013 at 1:35 pm |
    • ?

      If god just killed off all the clergy that babble on sundays for their daily bread we would be getting somewhere and would really help with getting some decent TV before football comes on.

      November 5, 2013 at 1:47 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      BJ, go learn why Christians worship on Sunday and you will also learn the answer to your question. Peace.

      November 5, 2013 at 2:04 pm |
      • Well Duh

        Are Seventh Day Adventists Christians?

        November 5, 2013 at 2:08 pm |
      • Bobbie Jo Justice

        that's an easy one, "christians" worship on sunday because they are a weak minded, easily manipulated, brainwashed group of people who are afraid to take life on by themselves

        November 5, 2013 at 5:41 pm |
    • Hope this helps

      No because we are not Levitical Jews.
      More resources for you
      http://www.thevillagechurch.net/sermon/christianresponsibilityandmosaiclaw/

      November 5, 2013 at 2:11 pm |
      • hawaiiguest

        And yet in your own bible Jesus says that not a jot or title will be changed from the law.
        He was not sent to abolish the law.
        etc. etc.
        Then again, the great big book of multiple choice will have a nice cop out for you wont it?

        November 5, 2013 at 2:15 pm |
        • Hope this helps

          For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.



          This is the correct quote from Matthew 5:18



          Continuing we find in Romans 10:4: For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.



          And again Ephesians 2:1415

          For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

          November 5, 2013 at 2:30 pm |
        • hawaiiguest

          So Paul's words override Jesus? Good to know.

          November 5, 2013 at 2:52 pm |
        • Hope this helps

          You should first understand Jesus' quote correctly. Then you can understand that Paul and Jesus are saying the same thing. No need to override each other.

          November 5, 2013 at 3:32 pm |
        • hawaiiguest

          So being gay is fine then? And the ten commandments are no longer applicable?
          If we are to take your particular interpretation of OT laws being abolished, then are you actually going to go all the way through with it?

          November 5, 2013 at 3:34 pm |
  5. Live4Him

    @Just the Facts Ma'am... : Please name one nation that could not claim some sort of cultural rebirth in the last 2500 years.

    This is a strawman argument. The prophecy didn't just claim that Israel would have a cultural rebirth, but that it would cease to exist at any level for a very LONG time before it came back into being. No other society ceased in such a way for a hundred years or more and then came back into existence with the same land, language and traditions. Only Israel.

    November 5, 2013 at 1:07 pm |
    • Just the Facts Ma'am...

      Israel has never ceased to exist as they kept their culture and traditions intact for the last 2000 years. Just because they weren't holding Jerusalem the whole time makes zero difference.

      November 5, 2013 at 1:10 pm |
      • Live4Him

        @Just the Facts Ma'am... : Israel has never ceased to exist as they kept their culture and traditions intact for the last 2000 years.

        They could not practice their traditions. They were subject to the laws of whatever nation they were in. So, again, I ask you, can you name any other nation that experienced such a rebirth?

        @Just the Facts Ma'am... : Just because they weren't holding Jerusalem the whole time makes zero difference.

        It makes 'zero difference' that they were unique in that it was 1) foretold, and 2) fulfilled? Sounds like your a priori views are clouding your judgment here.

        November 5, 2013 at 1:48 pm |
        • Well Duh

          You are beating a dead horse, we are all unimpressed with this prediction.

          November 5, 2013 at 1:55 pm |
        • Just the Facts Ma'am...

          "They could not practice their traditions. They were subject to the laws of whatever nation they were in. So, again, I ask you, can you name any other nation that experienced such a rebirth?"

          Let's start with Egypt. Do you know what a Gypsy is? Did you know that the Romans used the same practice of splitting up conquered nations to every nation they ruled which is why so many were displaced all around the mediteranian? This is not anything new, and the Isrealites were not the only ones dealing with it and were not infact banned from practicing their religion until certain periods of what we would consider the dark ages when the Christians began persecuting the Isrealites in Europe and blaming them for plagues and the supposed poisoning of wells. And even then they kept practicing their traditions and kept them alive in secret, it never stopped and thus your premise is totally flawed.

          November 5, 2013 at 2:02 pm |
        • Joey

          I wouldn't go so far as to call it a prediction. More like wishful thinking that eventually came true. Why can't an all powerful god come up with a prophecy that includes the exact date and circ.umstances of how Israel would be reborn? That would actually be a prophecy.

          November 5, 2013 at 2:03 pm |
        • Live4Him

          @Just the Facts Ma'am... : Let's start with Egypt.

          It's been in continguous existance for more than 4,000 years. So, what's your point?

          @Just the Facts Ma'am... : Did you know that the Romans used the same practice of splitting up conquered nations to every nation they ruled which is why so many were displaced all around the mediteranian?

          Sure. But how many nations were displaced and the territory renamed?

          @Just the Facts Ma'am... : Do you know what a Gypsy is?

          A ethnic group of unknown origins.

          November 5, 2013 at 3:08 pm |
    • Well Duh

      I understand that you find this very amazing, but I'm still very unimpressed. *yawn*

      What else you got?

      November 5, 2013 at 1:12 pm |
    • Richard Cranium

      Lie4him

      Isreal became a new nation when enough people that believed it chould be a nation got together and made it happen, in part because the bible said it was going to happen, so they made it happen.
      Perfect example of a self fulfilling prophecy.

      If I write that a giant statue is going to be placed high on a hill overloking my home town, and two centuries later there are enough people that believe it should happen, and they get together and build one, did I prophecize it, or did it happen BECAUSE of the prophecy?

      Self fulfilling prophecies such as this one are not proof of anything other than people can read and sometimes people believe what they read, and act on their belief.

      November 5, 2013 at 1:26 pm |
      • Live4Him

        @Richard Cranium : Self fulfilling prophecies such as this one

        How do you justify your claim that it is a self fulfilling prophecy? Sure, if enough people want something, it will happen. But, how do you propose that 'enough people' will want it because of the prophecy? After all, this prophecy existed for almost 2000 years before it was fulfilled. How do you explain this?

        In short, you've advanced a postulate without any evidence. Thus, it must be rejected.

        November 5, 2013 at 2:06 pm |
        • Richard Cranium

          Lie4him
          Ahh...typical Lie4him...I have my magic book, so any logical reasonable explaination will be thrown out, since my book s right and I know it is because it says so.

          You would need to read up on the history of what happened to get Isreal created, there are many books, and since enough of the poeple who helped make it happen, cite their god and the bible as partial justification, My statement stands.

          Take a history lesson...this one is absolutley a self fulfilled prophecy...no question about it....go ahead and pull your ostrich imitation again.

          November 5, 2013 at 2:50 pm |
        • Joey

          He claims you can dismiss the Koran because it got the Trinity wrong, but I am still waiting for his evidence that the Bible got the Trinity right.

          November 5, 2013 at 4:20 pm |
      • hawaiiguest

        So prophecy equals something that is said to happen at an undeterminate time that is easily influenced by the will of man. Good to know.

        November 5, 2013 at 2:11 pm |
      • HotAirAce

        "In short, you've advanced a postulate without any evidence. Thus, it must be rejected."

        Just as religion in general and supernatural beings specifically must be rejected.

        November 5, 2013 at 2:47 pm |
    • Jake

      Let me get this straight. Based on your interpretation, something predicted in the bible actually happened. You then conclude that that somehow is proof that the rest of the bible is true? Is that honestly your point? If I say that I can fly and that it will rain tomorrow, will you believe I can fly if it rains?

      November 5, 2013 at 1:35 pm |
      • Joey

        Sadly all it would take for Live4HIm to believe that you can fly is for it to rain anywhere in the world tomorrow, since you didn't specify where it would rain.

        November 5, 2013 at 2:09 pm |
    • ?

      Lord of the Rings, The Return of the King
      Lord of the Flies, All in a pigs head.
      The Return of Atlantis, still waiting.
      Nostradamus, fooled all of you with that crap.
      Edgar Cayce, prunes are good for regularity.
      Sorry I have no point to make, just rambling, god made ne do it or not.

      November 5, 2013 at 1:35 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      Truman said, when he decided to support nationhood for Israel, that he would very much like to see Israel once again in the world. So it was Truman, and no surprises, and not God that helped bring about the modern state of Israel.

      November 5, 2013 at 1:38 pm |
      • ?

        Jim Carrey, really, who knew? He doesn't even look.....

        November 5, 2013 at 1:51 pm |
    • Commenter

      Live4Him,

      "Fulfulled prophecies" are almost a dime a dozen all over the world.

      Here are a couple from the Maoris in New Zealand:

      - "the village elders acknowledged a prophecy of their Maori Prophet TeKooti who had prophesized that the people of the Peace Prophet from the East will come to their Marae with his message. In this regards, the Peace Prophet is none other than the Holy Prophet (May the blessings of Allah be upon him) and this message was the Holy Qur’an." http://www.indianweekender.co.nz/Pages/ArticleDetails/7/3607/New-Zealand/Historic-visit-to-Maori-village-fulfills-prophecy

      And the Mormons have their version of a great find:

      - "In March 1881, several thousand members of the Ngāti Hamua gathered near Masterton for a hui in the Nga Tau e Waru meeting house at Te Ore Ore Marae. During the meeting, Paora Te Potangaroa spoke of the spiritual impotency of the Christian missionaries that had visited the Māori. When some of the attendees pressed Potangaroa on which was the church for the Māori, he retired to his nearby residence for three days of fasting, meditation, and prayer.

      Potangaroa reconvened the meeting on March 16 and announced that he had received knowledge of a coming church for the Māori: "There is a religious denomination coming for us; perhaps it will come from there, perhaps it will emerge here. ... [T]here will be a time when a religion will emerge for you and I and the Māori people."[1] Another reported account elaborated:

      "You will recognize it when it comes. Its missionaries will travel in pairs. They will come from the rising sun. They will visit with us in our homes. They will learn our language and teach us the gospel in our own tongue. When they pray they will raise their right hands.[2]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paora_Te_Potangaroa

      November 5, 2013 at 2:05 pm |
      • Live4Him

        @Commenter : the village elders acknowledged a prophecy

        You're comparing THIS to a prophecy from an extant manuscript dated more than 2000 years old? You're really grasping at straws now. Those who claim a prophecy need to show evidence of foretelling, not just claiming it.

        November 5, 2013 at 2:23 pm |
        • Joey

          Prophecy made in 1881, Mormons showed up later than that. Therefore, it is just as valid as anything in the Bible.

          November 5, 2013 at 2:42 pm |
    • Fan2C

      Live4,
      "No other society ceased in such a way for a hundred years or more and then came back into existence with the same land, language and traditions. Only Israel."

      Guyana, for one... of many colonized countries over the years (some did get to keep their original names, some didn't).

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Guyana

      November 5, 2013 at 3:22 pm |
  6. lol??

    It's common knowledge that the Lord's disciples need help.

    Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    The fake gods couldn't do this. Say bye bye to yer myths and stories.

    BBbbwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahaha

    November 5, 2013 at 1:07 pm |
    • Well Duh

      "It's common knowledge that the Lord's disciples need help."

      You got that one right.

      BBbbwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahaha

      November 5, 2013 at 1:30 pm |
  7. Bobbie Jo Justice

    as george carlin so elegantly stated:

    When it comes to b.s., big-time, major league b.s., you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest b.s. story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

    But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money!

    November 5, 2013 at 1:06 pm |
    • lol??

      You have low standards for elegance. It' be a stretch sayin' he's full of grace, let alone truth.

      November 5, 2013 at 1:09 pm |
  8. Live4Him

    @Live4Him : Do you have any evidence to support your postulate? Does your evidence explain how the Bible got the issue of Israel's rebirth right?
    @Madtown : The evidence is, that humans wrote the bible.

    You only addressed the first issue, not the second issue, addressing who penned the manuscript rather than who authored the manuscript (google ghostwriter if you need an explanation).

    Thus, your evidence falls short of reliable.

    November 5, 2013 at 12:53 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      Evidence that anything other than humans was involved in the writing, compilation and editing of your Bible, please.

      November 5, 2013 at 12:57 pm |
      • Live4Him

        Ezekiel 37 – Prophecy of 'Valley of Dry Bones' depicting Israel's rebirth that happened in 1948.

        At the time, Israel was split into two nations, Judah and Israel. It prophesied that they would both cease to exist for a long time (depicted by the very dry bones) and then come back together to form a single nation in the land given to Abraham (i.e. the promised land or the land of today's Israel) and they would serve God again. About 600 years after the prophesy was given, they both ceased to exist and the land was named Syria-Palestine. It remained so until 1948, when those of Jewish descent were given territory we now know as Israel – with the same customs as long ago.

        November 5, 2013 at 1:23 pm |
        • Joey

          So you don't have any evidence?

          November 5, 2013 at 1:31 pm |
        • Who'dathunk

          Live4,

          Who'dathunk that Jews read the book of Ezekiel...?!

          November 5, 2013 at 1:31 pm |
        • Tom, Tom, the Other One

          H. G. Wells predicted that there would one day be bombs the size of basketballs that could destroy entire cities. That is no less uncanny than anything from your Bible.

          November 5, 2013 at 1:31 pm |
        • lol??

          I wouldn't exactly call THAT a rebirth. Reborn Israel is born again Christians. The unification was at the cross. KING OF THE JEWS was over the cross. The not-a-Jews are still not-a-Jews. That's in the book of Romans, which had nuthin' to do with the RCC and their replacement theology. It's finished.

          November 5, 2013 at 1:54 pm |
    • Well Duh

      "Does your evidence explain how the Bible got the issue of Israel's rebirth right?"

      You really seem to find this so amazing that it validates the contents of your book. I find it highly unimpressive.

      Have any other "amazing facts" that validates your book?

      November 5, 2013 at 12:58 pm |
    • Just the Facts Ma'am...

      "Does your evidence explain how the Bible got the issue of Israel's rebirth right?"

      Please name one nation that could not claim some sort of cultural rebirth in the last 2500 years...

      November 5, 2013 at 12:59 pm |
    • Joey

      I am not at all impressed that people who lived in Israel predicted it would have a rebirth, and ended up being right way off in the future. Unless of course they predicted the exact date and how it would be reborn you have nothing but wishful thinking that turned out to be correct.

      November 5, 2013 at 12:59 pm |
      • Just the Facts Ma'am...

        If the prophecy had been said about Rome L4H would be claiming America as the fullfilment of biblical prophecy. Or Germany, or Ja pan, or the USSR, or France, or any of the hundreds of nations who have come through revolutions and wars and turmoil to claim a new beginning and rebirth.

        November 5, 2013 at 1:07 pm |
    • meifumado

      Humans wrote and authored it.

      Is that better?

      November 5, 2013 at 1:01 pm |
    • Ra

      You non believers in me may have dusted me off as an average sun god, but eventually I will become a red giant sun and fry all your asses. That is a fact not some silly threat from the other puny gods.

      November 5, 2013 at 1:06 pm |
    • Orange Crush

      Madtown's answer, which of course you ignored when you decided to repost your question:

      "LOL! Well of course. The evidence is, that humans wrote the bible. That’s not an arguable position, it’s a simple fact. You’re the one that needs to explain why, if the bible is God’s word, that it didn’t cross God’s mind to supply his word to all his equal creations."

      November 5, 2013 at 1:34 pm |
  9. Jesus' Beloved

    Jesus did not choose some to save. Christ's death and resurrection is for ALL (not just those who call themselves Christians).
    In this dispensation (Grace) God doesn’t punish sin anymore; because He’s already punished it in His Son Christ Jesus. This is the Gospel- the good news of salvation. The good news is – it’s not about you receiving Christ. Christ has already accepted you.
    The question is have you accepted him… will you believe you are accepted by him.
    In Adam ALL die. In Christ ALL live.
    Believe this and live the abundant life Christ paid for you to enjoy. Abundance in wisdom, health, knowledge, understanding, provision, peace, joy, love.

    God Bless.

    November 5, 2013 at 12:36 pm |
    • Warning

      The OP is not hypoallergenic. It is chock full of enough unhealthy and unnatural scents to make even the sturdiest grandmother keel over.

      November 5, 2013 at 12:42 pm |
    • meifumado

      Jesus was a Jew and he did not eat pork, Do you eat pork?

      Jesus was a Jew and he did not want to create a new religion he only wanted to fix the Jewish religion.

      After Jesus died (which he did not rise from) his followers hijacked his teachings and started a cult.

      November 5, 2013 at 12:42 pm |
    • Madtown

      Christ's death and resurrection is for ALL
      ----–
      Cool. This means there's no need for religion.

      November 5, 2013 at 12:45 pm |
      • Jesus' Beloved

        Exactly!
        We should each have a personal relationship with Christ Jesus. Only through a relationship with Him can we receive fully all that He has in-store for each of us.
        "Friendship with God is reserved for those who reverence Him. With them only He reveals the secrets of His promises"

        Think of your own friends. You want to be around them, you want to share everything with them. It's the same and deeper level of friendship Christ wants with us. So we can be bold and not fearful.
        He is Love.

        November 5, 2013 at 12:56 pm |
        • Joey

          So Jesus didn't die for everyone, only those who believe in him. There is a difference.

          November 5, 2013 at 1:04 pm |
        • meifumado

          Please stay away from children and seek help for your delusions.

          November 5, 2013 at 1:05 pm |
        • Cleetus Allreetus Alrightus

          Jesus is dead and the resurection is mythology...

          November 5, 2013 at 1:25 pm |
        • Jesus' Beloved

          @Joey:
          For God so love (those who believe in Him) =NO
          For God so love THE WORLD, that He gave His only begotten Son...
          That whosoever = We are ALL WHOSOEVERS
          believe in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

          God loves each and everyone of us the same. Believer, non-believer. We belong to him, we are accepted by him unconditionally. We are Righteous, Free and Holy because of who we are in Christ.
          In Adam ALL die. In Christ ALL live.
          Now, the person who does not believe these things, all it does is rob them of the freedom, peace, joy, love, over-abundance that is found only in Christ. (If your spouse or child doesn’t believe that you love them even though you love them with all your heart, their approach to life will be very different than if they believe and are secure in that knowledge)

          So it's up to you to decide if you believe... if you accept that he loves you fully and unconditionally.
          – it’s not about you receiving Christ. Christ has already accepted you.
          The question is have you accepted him… will you believe you are accepted by him.

          November 5, 2013 at 1:34 pm |
        • Joey

          If he loved everyone unconditionally then everyone would go to heaven no matter what. If that is not the case then god does not love everyone unconditionally. Words have meanings, in this case if I have to believe in Jesus as a condition to get into heaven then god doesn't love me unconditionally.

          November 5, 2013 at 1:47 pm |
        • Madtown

          Think of your own friends. You want to be around them, you want to share everything with them. It's the same and deeper level of friendship Christ wants with us
          ----
          My own friends email and call, a real relationship. How again am I to have a relationship with Christ that is similar to the one I have with friends?

          November 5, 2013 at 2:43 pm |
    • Commenter

      Jesus' Beloved
      "Jesus did not choose some to save."

      An omnipotent god gets pushed around and cowed by his dad (or himself?) like that....?

      November 5, 2013 at 12:51 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      I don't believe the Jesus story....So am I still saved?

      November 5, 2013 at 1:06 pm |
      • Jesus' Beloved

        Ask yourself why don't you believe that Christ Jesus came to restore all that was lost through Adam.

        God gave the earth to man (Adam) to have full authority over.
        That is why whenever God does anything on earth it is usually through a covenant.
        Because man lost his authority over the earth, God had to send a man (in his Son) to restore all that was lost. If people knew the power and authority they have they would stop questioning the will of God.
        Authority has been restored to man, but most don't know this. Worst of all... the Christian doesn't believe this (at least most of them).

        November 5, 2013 at 1:40 pm |
        • Joey

          Adam never existed so everything you said after that is just made up nonsense.

          November 5, 2013 at 2:36 pm |
      • Jesus' Beloved

        A simple prayer of "Jesus help my unbelief" is enough. He will reveal Himself to you if you seek Him.

        November 5, 2013 at 1:46 pm |
      • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

        1) You didn't answer the question. Am I still saved if I don't believe?

        2) The story is absolutely absurd.

        3) Praying "Jesus help my belief" requires one to at least partially accept the premise that Jesus is real which is a path to self delusion. If Jesus were actually real there would be a much better way to verify him than self delusion.

        4) I used to believe in Jesus, and I have prayed so that is confirmation according to your logic that Jesus is not real.

        November 5, 2013 at 2:06 pm |
        • The devil's advocate

          Sounds like a pretty good job helping you with your unbelief. Maybe you should have been more specific which direction you wanted your unbelief to go.

          November 5, 2013 at 5:16 pm |
  10. HotAirAce

    From Meriam-Webster:

    Full Definition of EVIDENCE

    1
    a : an outward sign : indication
    b : something that furnishes proof : testimony; specifically : something legally submitted to a tribunal to ascertain the truth of a matter
    2
    : one who bears witness; especially : one who voluntarily confesses a crime and testifies for the prosecution against his accomplices

    Believers are good at bearing witness but terrible at furnishing proof. When people bear witness to a crime, including when they confess, the justice system has standards intended to ensure there is proof.

    Go ahead, stretch the definition of evidence, or focus on the word testimony, to mean "whatever someone declares with sincerity" (my paraphrase of what I think you and believers want it to mean) but that does not make it so. When atheists talk about evidence, we don't mean testimony. We mean actual evidence that would stand up under the scientific method or in a court of law. If no such evidence is provide, we remain skeptic.

    "We don't know" is a way more credible answer than "some god did it" especially given zero actual evidence for any god – other than the bleatings of charlatan shamans and their sheep, of course.

    November 5, 2013 at 11:23 am |
    • Vic

      In the case of God, it has been common knowledge, at least by sentience, throughout the ages that God made all of this until proven otherwise. Along the line of innocent until proven guilty.

      No one has empirical evidence where we and the universe come from but it's all here. Likewise, we all experience and realize gravity, yet no one can see it or point to a physical being of it.

      November 5, 2013 at 12:07 pm |
      • Vic

        "..along the lines.."

        November 5, 2013 at 12:09 pm |
      • Commenter

        Vic,

        Nobody gives gravity a cute little human personality, with emotions and wacky intentions and trumped-up eternal consequences.

        November 5, 2013 at 12:12 pm |
        • Vic

          Gravity exhibits the characteristics of a field force, so we regard it as such. On the other hand, what's exhibiting the characteristics of power, creation & life, we regard as God. Simple math.

          November 5, 2013 at 12:20 pm |
        • Billy

          LOL – which god, Vic. That's just silly.

          November 5, 2013 at 12:45 pm |
        • Doris

          "what's exhibiting the characteristics of power, creation & life, we regard as God. Simple math."

          No, we all don't "regard" that, Vic. And just forget it being simple math. It's a belief by some, since you are touching on things about which knowledge is scant. I recommend learning from history which has shown us what happens to supersti-tions and beliefs when they no longer make sense in light of current knowledge.

          November 5, 2013 at 1:01 pm |
      • In Santa we trust

        Vic, You have it the wrong way around. No god until there is proof. In this case god is guilt.

        November 5, 2013 at 12:16 pm |
      • meifumado

        What?

        November 5, 2013 at 12:17 pm |
      • Richard Cranium

        Wow Vic...jumping right in with lies today...good for you.

        There is no "common knowledge" of any gods....actually all are born atheist and have to be taught about god, and the god that you are taught varies depending on the local superst!tions...nothing "common" about it.

        Basically what you are saying is...there is no evidence of anything, therefore it is logical to choose one of an infinite number of possibilities and declare that randomly chosen possibility correct and all the rest of the inifinite number of possibilities are wrong, simply because you say so.

        Logic Vic...look it up.

        November 5, 2013 at 12:19 pm |
        • Vic

          How did the first human learn about the concept of God then?! Plus, you are totally ignoring sentience.

          If no one can explain this existence and life in it, then it is the most logical to think that God did it!

          November 5, 2013 at 12:24 pm |
        • Vic's Beloved

          [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q3CZNKgnNE&w=640&h=360]

          November 5, 2013 at 12:34 pm |
        • ?

          Psst, Vic people developed active imaginations and made up a lot of stories about what they did not understand, ergo, the thousands of "gods" mankind created in his image not the other way around. Try and get it Vic.

          November 5, 2013 at 12:35 pm |
        • lol??

          So ?, why are the evolutonists such copy cats of yer theory of made up stories??

          BBbbbwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahaha

          November 5, 2013 at 12:38 pm |
        • meifumado

          @ Vic No it is not logical to think a imaginary being is responsible.

          November 5, 2013 at 12:39 pm |
        • Just the Facts Ma'am...

          "How did the first human learn about the concept of God then?! "

          It's called projecting. Humans project their emotions and fears and hopes into the darkness to create both God and the Devil. They are two sides to the same coin, the fear and hope coin that was cast by our early ancestors as they tried to understand the world around them.

          November 5, 2013 at 12:57 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          "If no one can explain this existence and life in it, then it is the most logical to think that God did it!"

          Translation: If no one can explain existence and life in it, then it is most logical to make an explaination.

          The fact that you think this makes sense is funny....

          November 5, 2013 at 12:58 pm |
        • Vic

          No offense intended here but that's basically quibbling, which reminds of Richard Dawkin's style. I am looking for an answer to "how did the first human learn about the concept of God then?!"

          November 5, 2013 at 1:02 pm |
        • Richard Cranium

          Vic
          I ceratinly have not talked with the first person to believe that any gods existed, have you?
          Belief in gods comes from ignorance. We don't know why the ground rumbles and the maountain puffs smoke...it must be something bigger than us, and we have to appease the god so it will be beneficial to us, if not the god will be angry.

          Ignorance Vic...that is where the concept of a god came from.
          Your bible is a prime example.
          Noah's ark... never was there a global flood...a story built on ignorance...they did not know ( and we still don't) that what they wrote was an impossibility for so many reasons it isn't funny.
          You can't make striped goats by having them stare at striped patterns...belief based in ignorance....you are simply continuing the process, here....we do not know, so it must be a god...
          there is NO logic in your statements ....there is a HUGE leap from ignorance to thinking you know, and you are showing you do not know what logic is, over and over.

          November 5, 2013 at 1:13 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          "how did the first human learn about the concept of God then?!"

          Your question is poorly phrased. It insinuates the concept came from outside of humanity when there is no reason to conclude that.

          November 5, 2013 at 1:14 pm |
        • ?

          Vic
          Pay attention, people make stuff up, you may want to clue into the dozens of creation myths and the thousands of other gods. Tolkien made up a very interesting world in his mind with a different idea of deity even though he claimed to be a Christian; Vic, people make stuff up, get it?

          November 5, 2013 at 1:19 pm |
        • Just the Facts Ma'am...

          @Vic – The first Gods imagined came from our early ancestors who evolved certain traits that enabled them to survive in very harsh conditions. One of those traits was being able to imagine the terror in the darkness without having to see it. They would hear the sounds while they hid in their holes and caves and pass on the fear of not going out into the darkness. I believe the earliest imagined beings were devils and demons which eventually evolved into their anti-thesis, God/angels/beneficial spirits, used as a counterbalance to the fear engendered by the unknown, the darkness. This is of course my opinion, but it is a far better explanation than the Genesis account which as I have pointed out several times, could not possibly be true in the face of the geological and genetic information we now have.

          November 5, 2013 at 1:19 pm |
        • Doc Vestibule

          @Vic
          Where did the concept of gods come from?
          When early man, his little brain bent upon survival at all costs, discovered that the world worked independly from how he thought it worked, (or at least how he had hoped it worked), early man was frightened and scared. That can't be! said early man to other early men. There must be some explanation, nature can't just be arbitrary!
          Ugg, said other early men, and thus "God" was born–or, more appropriately, gods. Early men weren't really very good at generalization, and since everything seemed to work independently from everything else, several gods were needed to explain the "stuff" that affected early man so profoundly. But instead of "Gravityman," "LightWavesWoman," "FractalDemon," and "FunctionChild," early man, unaware of such mystical things as provability and objectivity, figured that somebody just like him, but a little smarter, must be responsible for how and why the world worked like it did. And since it was like him, it must be fickle, greedy, and childlike. Thus, mult.itheism had its glorious start.

          Polytheistic religions were around for eons before Christianity came along – a big beautiful "unified field theory" of a religion, that combined all of our fears and woes and hopes and dreams under one, easy-to-remember, easy-to-appease label, Jesus Christ (and His Da).

          Now, religion is an artefact. We've managed to describe, well, almost everything, in physical terms.
          God? well, he and his kin have been relegated by science to the very beginning of time, the exact moment of the big bang, when all the matter in the Universe was concentrated into one minute area. Everything after that time is accounted for by physics, if only in a general way. And even then, God seems highly improbable.
          More than just keeping an imaginary friend around to make the world seem less bleak, some religious people understand some basic facts about objectivity and credibility, and attempt to prove religion – an ultimately unprovable hypothesis by its very belief-based nature. This gets funny, because "facts" become tools that must be selectively presented. This is a rigourous process of double-think, where some things are ignored or made smaller while others are made huge and important. The common thread, however, is the inability to reconcile some things with others: reality with aggrandizement, hope with reality, anecdote with fact, ideas with proof. Everything is fair game, even if some of it is basically assumed and other stuff is questioned so rhetorically as to lose all meaning.

          Science says that God is irrelevant to everything we do and everything we are; that means we have to work to make everything we do and everythig we are relevant; and that's hard.
          The world doesn't work how we want it to work. The world is. We can only describe it, and chronicle its workings. God is an explanation for the reason behind the Universe's existence, something which is unknowable and has no relation to what happens in the Universe.

          November 5, 2013 at 1:22 pm |
        • Commenter

          @Just the Facts Ma'am,

          That's a very good explanation. Here's more of my thoughts along those lines:

          People are sometimes sort of insulted by the fact that humans are social mammals. They seek a leader (of the pack, if you will), who has qualities of wisdom, benevolence, and the power to protect them from harm. They range from leader of the tribe, to leader of the nation, or some other group unit. Sometimes these human leaders were considered gods. Since humans are aware that their lives will end, and they are not at all thrilled by this fact, they then seek an imaginary leader who will provide the same wisdom, benevolence and protection in a much hoped-for afterlife. It is not surprising that they envision this leader with human-like characteristics of love, anger, wisdom, benevolence, etc. Also, much of nature was a mystery to them and this fantasy filled the huge gaps in their knowledge.

          The supersti'tions dreamed up over the eons regarding what these gods liked, hated, rewarded, punished, etc. fill many books. The shamans, whether they believed the supersti'tions or not, found a great mechanism for power and control of the populace.

          November 5, 2013 at 1:26 pm |
        • Robert Brown

          Just the facts & Doc,
          Those are both reasonable theories, but other than the creation narrative in Genesis concerning origins, there just isn’t much in the bible where God is used to describe what we consider natural processes.

          November 5, 2013 at 1:32 pm |
        • Commenter

          Doc V,

          Yours is a good scenario too - I was typing when you posted.

          November 5, 2013 at 1:36 pm |
        • Just the Facts Ma'am...

          "there just isn’t much in the bible where God is used to describe what we consider natural processes."

          "12 On the day the Lord gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the Lord in the presence of Israel: “Sun, stand still over Gibeon, and you, moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.” 13 So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on[b] its enemies, as it is written in the Book of Jashar. The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day." Joshua 10:12,13

          The bible does describe natural processes such as the Sun revolving around the earth...which of course, it doesn't. It equates the movement of the Sun to that of the Moon, with both being "stopped". Now a biblical defender might say "But they wouldn't have understood the rotation of the earth" which is true, which is why I believe the Bible to be a book of man, writing down his impression of unknown phenomenon, not being given any divine guidence which would by its proclaimed nature, not be able to lie. So why give a false narrative of the "global" flood which didn't happen, or the order of creation, or the Adam & Eve account even though we know from our own DNA that didn't happen and infact we carry neanderthal and denisovian genes from interbreeding with two other species tens of thousands of years before the Genesis account claims to have occured.

          November 5, 2013 at 1:45 pm |
        • Robert Brown

          Yes, that is an example of the view from earth, kind of, as you would expect.
          The bible doesn’t say when creation occurred. Those who strictly count the genealogies say around 6000 years, others say there are gaps, allowing 10,000, while others using the examples like Jesus the son of David, say hundreds of thousands of years. There are some things we just don’t know, not that we wouldn’t like to at times.

          November 5, 2013 at 1:58 pm |
        • Vic

          The Bible proclaims that from the beginning God did not want man to acquire knowledge (Genesis 2:17 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat,..) as it is a double edge sword. Accordingly, God inspired man in his own layman terms. It is not God's concern that man knows the astronomical order, and those inspired figures of speech are intended for the moral of the story, that is God IS and has dominion over His creation.

          November 5, 2013 at 2:03 pm |
        • Vic

          To this day, we say "the sun rises, the sun sets, etc."

          November 5, 2013 at 2:04 pm |
        • Richard Cranium

          Vic
          The bible proclaims a lot of things that are ridiculous and false, making any other proclaimation suspect.?
          The bible proclaims you can make striped goats by having them stare at striped objects....flase.
          The bible proclaims there was a world wide flood....false
          the bible says that you can tell if your wife is unfaithful by putting some dust in holy water and having her drink it...false

          Why do you think ANYTHING the bible proclaims is true? Too many holes in it vic, it doesn't hold water.

          November 5, 2013 at 2:09 pm |
        • Commenter

          Vic,

          And to this day.... every week (52 times per year) in English-speaking places we have:
          Tuesday = Tiu's day (Norse god)
          Wednesday = Woden's day (Norse god)
          Thursday = Thor's day (Norse god)
          Friday = Frigga's day (Norse goddess)
          Saturday = Saturn's day (Roman god)
          And every year:
          January = in honor of Janus (Roman god)
          February = Roman purification rite, februa
          March = in honor of Mars (Roman god)
          April = in honor of Aphrodite (Greek goddess)
          May = in honor of Maia (Roman goddess)
          June = in honor of Juno (Roman goddess)

          A lot of hoopla for those gods and goddesses. I guess that means that they were/are all real too then, eh?

          November 5, 2013 at 2:10 pm |
        • Just the Facts Ma'am...

          "To this day, we say "the sun rises, the sun sets, etc."

          So how would humans today describe the event if the earth stopped its rotation such that the sun stayed in the middle of the sky? Besides having to deal with the centrifugal forces and the oceans creating tidal waves and the iron core of the earth causing earthquakes and mass destruction, how do you think we would describe it Vic?

          November 5, 2013 at 2:14 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          "The Bible proclaims that from the beginning God did not want man to acquire knowledge"

          The Bible is full of God failing over and over.....this is the first. God wanted something and he could not accomplish it....fail.

          November 5, 2013 at 2:28 pm |
      • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

        It is common knowledge that humans make up answers for questions they really don't have answers to....

        November 5, 2013 at 12:54 pm |
      • Robert Brown

        sen·tient
        adjective \ˈsen(t)-sh(ē-)ənt, ˈsen-tē-ənt\

        : able to feel, see, hear, smell, or taste

        Full Definition of SENTIENT

        1

        : responsive to or conscious of sense impressions

        2

        : aware

        3

        : finely sensitive in perception or feeling

        — sen·tient·lyadverb

        See sentient defined for English-language learners »

        See sentient defined for kids »

        Examples of SENTIENT

        Origin of SENTIENT

        Latin sentient-, sentiens, present participle of sentire to perceive, feel
        First Known Use: 1632

        Related to SENTIENT

        Synonymsalive, apprehensive, aware, cognizant, mindful, sensible, conscious, ware, wittingAntonymsinsensible, oblivious, unaware, unconscious, unmindful, unwitting

        Related Wordsalert, attentive, careful, cautious, heedful, observant, open-eyed, regardful, safe, vigilant, wary, watchful, wide-awake; hyperaware, hyperconsciousNear Antonymscareless, heedless, inattentive, incautious, mindless, unguarded, unheeding, unwary

        November 5, 2013 at 1:18 pm |
        • Tom, Tom, the Other One

          Interesting when one thinks about it, Robert. The God that ontological arguments aim to prove, the God of first cause, Spinoza's God, and others as well, need not be sentient.

          November 5, 2013 at 1:25 pm |
        • Vic

          @Robert "..."

          😉

          November 5, 2013 at 1:33 pm |
        • Robert Brown

          That is true Tom, but I’m with Vic. I think God, through the Holy Spirit, can be experienced, or simply put, felt.

          November 5, 2013 at 1:36 pm |
        • Tom, Tom, the Other One

          Actually, I meant a God that is aware and feels etc.

          November 5, 2013 at 1:42 pm |
        • Commenter

          Robert Brown,

          Perhaps your sentient pets think that *you* are god (well, except for cats - they think that *they* are!).

          November 5, 2013 at 1:46 pm |
        • Robert Brown

          Ok Tom, I’m a little slow on the uptake this afternoon. I think God is alive, aware, and working in the lives of believers all the time. He also on occasion knocks at the heart’s door of those who have yet to believe.

          November 5, 2013 at 1:49 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @HotAirAce : "We don't know" is a way more credible answer than "some god did it"

      According to your definition, "We don't know" is not evidence. However, "it is in the Bible" IS evidence. So, why do you claim that it is a 'more credible answer' to not provide evidence in lieu of supplying evidence?

      November 5, 2013 at 12:19 pm |
      • Madtown

        "it is in the Bible" IS evidence
        -----
        It's only evidence of humans writing their notions into book form.

        November 5, 2013 at 12:25 pm |
        • Live4Him

          @Madtown: It's only evidence of humans writing their notions into book form.

          Do you have any evidence to support your postulate? Does your evidence explain how the Bible got the issue of Israel's rebirth right?

          November 5, 2013 at 12:32 pm |
        • Madtown

          LOL! Well of course. The evidence is, that humans wrote the bible. That's not an arguable position, it's a simple fact. You're the one that needs to explain why, if the bible is God's word, that it didn't cross God's mind to supply his word to all his equal creations.

          November 5, 2013 at 12:41 pm |
        • Well Duh

          "Does your evidence explain how the Bible got the issue of Israel's rebirth right?"

          Really? That's the best evidence you have that the entire contents of the Bible is to be considered true? Is the thought of a nation coming into being again that so far off from believable that it couldn't be anything other than a miraculous prediction?

          How is it your skepticism of science is so high, yet your skepticism of the Bible is so very low?

          November 5, 2013 at 12:45 pm |
        • Commenter

          Live4Him

          "Does your evidence explain how the Bible got the issue of Israel's rebirth right?"

          You are putting the cart before the horse. Don't you think that the Israelites have read that book... and are acting accordingly?

          November 5, 2013 at 12:45 pm |
        • Just the Facts Ma'am...

          "Does your evidence explain how the Bible got the issue of Israel's rebirth right?"

          Please name one nation that could not claim some sort of cultural rebirth in the last 2500 years.

          November 5, 2013 at 12:51 pm |
      • ME II

        @Live4Him,
        "We don't know" is not a claim, nor evidence of a claim. it is a null position.

        November 5, 2013 at 12:27 pm |
      • Commenter

        Live4Him,

        1. "It is in the Bible" is not evidence of anything more than what ancient Israelites fantasized about.

        2. Muslims say "It is in the Quran". Mormons say, "It is in the Book of Mormon". Other believers use their own unique divinations and legends. They say it is "evidence" also. They do not agree.

        They cannot all be right, but they can all be wrong.

        November 5, 2013 at 12:29 pm |
        • Live4Him

          @Commenter : It is in the Bible" is not evidence of anything more than what ancient Israelites fantasized about.

          Do you have any evidence to support your postulate? Does your evidence explain how the Bible got the issue of Israel's rebirth right?

          @Commenter : Muslims say "It is in the Quran". ... They say it is "evidence" also.

          Good, point – but lets look deeper at this evidence. The Quran proclaims that Allah is omnisicent, yet protrays Allah as erroneously identifying Mary as part of the Trinity. So, while the Quran may be evidence, it is flawed evidence and therefore should be dismissed.

          November 5, 2013 at 12:44 pm |
        • Madtown

          it is flawed evidence and therefore should be dismissed.
          -----–
          Oh, ok. So says you. Meanwhile, others who think differently dismiss your evidence as flawed, and we're back to square 1 in the stalemate of stupidity.

          November 5, 2013 at 12:50 pm |
        • Joey

          So I take it you can prove without using the bible that Muslims got the Trinity wrong and Christians got it right?

          November 5, 2013 at 12:56 pm |
        • Commenter

          Live4Him,

          The Bible got it wrong on how to identify unfaithful wives. Moses said the "The Lord" TOLD him precisely how to do it (!), along with quite a few other bits of nonsense and fantasy horror in that book. These things disqualify your book. It is to be dismissed regarding the divinity of its god.

          November 5, 2013 at 1:03 pm |
        • Maddy

          Golly. Live4Him ran away again? How utterly shocking.

          November 5, 2013 at 2:17 pm |
      • Vic

        This existence and life in it ARE "Prima Facie" circumstantial EVIDENCE of God. "We don't know" empirically but not logically.

        November 5, 2013 at 12:30 pm |
        • Billy

          In that regard everything you attribute to the God of Abraham could just as easily be attributed to Peter Pan.

          November 5, 2013 at 12:37 pm |
        • Vic

          The Creator and the creature are never equal, actually and conceptually. Peter Pan is conceptually a fictional creature (human.)

          November 5, 2013 at 12:40 pm |
        • Billy

          You're switching characters, Vic. Creator, God. Make up your mind for Zeus' sake.

          November 5, 2013 at 12:44 pm |
        • ?

          Vic
          So many of the gods are conceptually fictional characters, Ra, Zeus, Vishnu, etc and the only reason you think your guy is different is your faith and fear you may be wrong.

          November 5, 2013 at 12:59 pm |
      • Well Duh

        It's more like, we're both looking at the most complex math problem ever. I say I don't know the answer. You say, I do know the answer and it's 9, yet you cannot demonstrate at all how 9 is actually the correct answer.

        You claim the Bible has evidence, but is merely an assertion. You believe in a book that says a magic man, whom you cannot possibly describe or explain how He came into being, said abracabra and voila, the universe came into being from nothing, but that is all you have, and you somehow believe that is a better answer than saying I don't know. So just make something up, and it's better than I don't know?

        I'd rather say I don't know than believe in something that is false.

        November 5, 2013 at 12:36 pm |
      • Woof

        My god's faster than your god,
        My god's bigger than yours.
        My god's better 'cause he's from Israel nation,
        My god's better than yours.

        November 5, 2013 at 1:09 pm |
      • HotAirAce

        Lie4Him,

        As others have well stated, there is no common knowledge that any god exists. This is just wishful thinking on believers' part, bolstered by the unwarranted special place religion has enjoyed for too long.

        I agree that "we don't know" is not evidence – I never said it was. It is a neutral statement without assumptions, unlike your beliefs which, in the absence of any evidence, are 100% based on unfounded assumptions.

        Time for you and your ilk to admit that while your con has had a good run, you have been challenged and are completely unable to support your con with anything that comes even close to real evidence – evidence that holds up to the scientific method or the judicial system's rules of evidence.

        What would you do if someone openly accused you of fraud or if someone stated openly that you are a liar? Or that said you should not be trusted and no one should enter into any business with you because you are mentally ill and/or a liar? That this is all true because of your claims to believe in a supernatural being as described in the piece of crap known as the bible but more correctly called The Babble, and these assertions about you had a demonstrable negative affect on your business and standing within your community.

        Would you sue to defend your status, your business and your beliefs? Do you really believe you have sufficient evidence to prove the existence of your god in a court of law? I think not. You are merely the latest emperor with no clothes. . .

        November 5, 2013 at 3:39 pm |
    • lol??

      Like Piltdown Man in the Scopes trial??

      BBbbwwwaaaaaaaahahahaha

      November 5, 2013 at 12:26 pm |
      • ME II

        How about a case in this century?

        Kitzmiller v Dover

        November 5, 2013 at 1:01 pm |
        • lol??

          Is that the trial that the nutcase that posted a vid on every comment was talkin' about?? Too many cartoons.

          November 5, 2013 at 2:09 pm |
        • ME II

          @lol??,
          What are you talking about?

          November 5, 2013 at 3:04 pm |
        • lol??

          You don't remember the dude that posted with the name "Science"?? A vid on every post. Quite annoying. Must have got kicked off.

          November 5, 2013 at 5:38 pm |
    • lol??

      The earliest proponents of evolution would be laughed out of court, errrr dismissed.

      BBBbbwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahaha

      November 5, 2013 at 12:30 pm |
      • Billy

        You might want to come out of the cave and get up to date. Tell us who's getting thrown out of court over evolution now, dufus.

        November 5, 2013 at 12:38 pm |
        • lol??

          Do tell, William.

          Bbbbbwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahaha

          November 5, 2013 at 12:44 pm |
        • Science Works

          Said NO to creationism/ID

          November 5, 2013 at 1:45 pm |
      • Science Works

        lol?? is a bruised banana.

        He knows the Texas publishers also said NO to the NEW text books for 2014.

        November 5, 2013 at 1:44 pm |
        • lol??

          You should take off the latex and come out for air.

          November 5, 2013 at 2:10 pm |
        • Science Works

          Fruit flies love bruised bananas lol??

          November 5, 2013 at 2:19 pm |
  11. Bobbie Jo Justice

    Christianity
    The belief that a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree... yea, that makes sense....NOT

    November 5, 2013 at 11:16 am |
    • Vic

      Abiogenesis: Life came out of no life. Yeah..that makes sense..NOT!

      November 5, 2013 at 12:16 pm |
      • ?

        Good Vic good. Life came from natural reactions over time, you are starting to get it, I am proud of you. When "life" is discovered elsewhere in the universe, even in our tiny little solar system, how are you going to square that circle with Christian apologetics?

        November 5, 2013 at 12:30 pm |
        • Vic

          The same way, sentiently, logically and "faithfully."

          November 5, 2013 at 12:34 pm |
        • ?

          Vic
          Just when I thought you were making progress you drop back to god did it because I have faith. Strength from ignorance is not much of a defense for your god did it faith. So who created the life on Mars that will inevitably be found.

          November 5, 2013 at 12:41 pm |
  12. lol??

    Evolution, for over 25 centuries, has been quite the serial time killer. No wonder they brag about their theory that man is almost a half a million years old. That won't work though. It cannot mitigate their sin on judgment day.

    November 5, 2013 at 11:01 am |
    • I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that

      😉

      November 5, 2013 at 11:04 am |
    • Bobbie Jo Justice

      judgement day, yet another christian farce

      November 5, 2013 at 11:23 am |
    • Live4Him

      History of the theory of evolution:

      Macro level evolution: The ancent Greeks first proposed evolution. Anaximander (611 – 546 BC) presented the first written theory of evolution. This theory was widely accepted until Aristotle's time (384 – 322 BC). It was pointed out that when a man lost an arm in combat, his offspring did not carry on this change.

      Mini level evolution: Charles Darwin revived the theory of evolution with his Origin of Species in 1859. He refined the original theory to a lower level, the cell, believing this to be the smallest structure in the body. However, scientist subsequently found repair mechanisms that either repaired the cell damage (i.e. mutation) or isolated/eliminated the cell from reproduction.

      Micro level evolution: The theory of evolution was subsequently refined to the DNA level. However, even DNA structures have repair mechanisms, so this is currently being tested. On series of experiments was the Fruit Fly experiments, which forced rapid mutations through x-rays for each generation. The scientists found that while some of these mutations were carried into the next generation, the offspring would often be sterile. The resulting conclusion is that evolution was limited to a specific range and outside of that range the offspring couldn't reproduce or would be at a disadvantage in a natural environment.

      November 5, 2013 at 11:30 am |
      • In Santa we trust

        Lie4Him, How cab you believe that you refuted evolution or even taken a reasonable stab at it? Evolution is accepted as fact by the scientific community. There is no evidence for creationism.

        November 5, 2013 at 11:36 am |
        • lol??

          Prove yer existence, santa. Prove yer evolution. It's science ya know.

          November 5, 2013 at 12:02 pm |
      • G to the T

        The inheritance of phenotypes you describe is a Lamarkian theory, not a Darwinian one. So, fail right there.

        November 5, 2013 at 11:37 am |
        • Live4Him

          Care to elucidate your response? Are you claiming that Darwin did not advance possible inheritance of characteristics?

          November 5, 2013 at 12:03 pm |
      • Maddy

        Time to break out the "dino soft tissue" theory again.

        November 5, 2013 at 11:54 am |
        • Live4Him

          Last I heard, evolutionary experts haven't come up with a viable theory for how dino soft tissue has survived beyond the 10,000 year limit proven by empirical evidence. Have you heard of one?

          November 5, 2013 at 12:12 pm |
        • Maddy

          ....And it's been broken out, as predicted. I must have fufilled a prophecy.

          November 5, 2013 at 1:01 pm |
      • meifumado

        Evolution is proven theory.

        You should seek help for your delusions and stay away from children.

        November 5, 2013 at 12:13 pm |
    • meifumado

      Sin is a made up concept.

      November 5, 2013 at 12:11 pm |
  13. Mary

    Get down to business and just can the prayer.

    November 5, 2013 at 11:00 am |
    • lol??

      The business of Babylon is partyin'. Money's all gone but the plan is confiscation from the Christians.

      November 5, 2013 at 11:04 am |
      • Maddy

        As usual, your comment makes zero sense.

        November 5, 2013 at 11:29 am |
        • lol??

          Some people lost in the evolution game. Sorry.

          November 5, 2013 at 12:13 pm |
        • Maddy

          I'$ glad you're apologizing for you abject ignorance. Admitting you're wrong is the first step into making thing right.

          November 5, 2013 at 1:11 pm |
        • lol??

          Somethin' got lost in the translation. Sorry FOR you, not TO you. Cool empathy, right??

          BBBBBbbwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahaha

          November 5, 2013 at 1:39 pm |
  14. mzh

    O people, an example is presented, so listen to it. Indeed, those you invoke besides Allah will never create [as much as] a fly, even if they gathered together for that purpose. And if the fly should steal away from them a [tiny] thing, they could not recover it from him. Weak are the pursuer and pursued. – Al Quran 22:73

    November 5, 2013 at 9:49 am |
    • mzh

      It is He who created you from dust, then from a sperm-drop, then from a clinging clot; then He brings you out as a child; then [He develops you] that you reach your [time of] maturity, then [further] that you become Elders (old age)And among you is he who is taken in death before [that], so that you reach a specified term; and perhaps you will think. – 40:67

      O mankind, fear your Lord, who created you from one soul and created from it, its mate and dispersed from both of them many men and women. And fear Allah through Whom you demand your mutual (rights), and (do not cut the relations of) the wombs (kinship). Surely, Allah is Ever an All-Watcher over you. – 4:1

      Worship Allah and associate nothing with Him, and to parents do good, and to relatives, orphans, the needy, the near neighbor, the neighbor farther away, the companion at your side, the traveler, and those whom your right hands possess. Indeed, Allah does not like those who are arrogant and boastful. – 4:36

      O mankind! If you are in doubt about the Resurrection, then verily! We have created you (i.e. Adam) from dust, then from a Nutfah (mixed drops of male and female discharge i.e. offspring of Adam), then from a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood) then from a little lump of flesh, some formed and some unformed (miscarriage), that We may make (it) clear to you. And We cause whom We will to remain in the wombs for an appointed term, then We bring you out as infants, then (give you growth) that you may reach your age of full strength. And among you there is he who dies (young), and among you there is he who is brought back to the miserable old age, so that he knows nothing after having known. And you see the earth barren, but when We send down water (rain) on it, it is stirred (to life), it swells and puts forth every lovely kind (of growth). – 22:5

      Every soul will taste death (NO EXCEPTION), and you will only be given your [full] compensation on the Day of Resurrection. So he who is drawn away from the Fire and admitted to Paradise has attained [his desire]. And what is the life of this world except the enjoyment of delusion. – 3:185

      So remind (each other), you are only a reminder. You are not over them a controller. 88:21-22

      Peace!!!

      November 5, 2013 at 9:51 am |
      • Akira

        "We have created you (i.e. Adam) from dust, then from a Nutfah (mixed drops of male and female discharge i.e. offspring of Adam), then from a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood) then from a little lump of flesh, some formed and some unformed (miscarriage), that We may make (it) clear to you."

        No. And if you believe this to be true...well, no.

        November 5, 2013 at 11:04 am |
      • meifumado

        "And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd.'" [Qur'an 17:104]

        Why do not Muslims follow the word of Allah and leave Israel to the Jews?

        November 5, 2013 at 12:35 pm |
    • I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that

      "Let me tell you something, pendejo. You pull any of your crazy sh!t with us, you flash a piece out on the lanes, I'll take it away from you, stick it up your ass and pull the fvcking trigger 'til it goes ... click." – Jesus Quintana

      November 5, 2013 at 9:53 am |
      • Jake

        Ha, nice! The only thing worth reading in this thread.

        November 5, 2013 at 9:58 am |
        • I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that

          The Dude abides.

          November 5, 2013 at 10:01 am |
    • Sara

      Kind of silly to pick a line that is factually wrong.

      November 5, 2013 at 9:54 am |
    • Tony

      mzh, that's a bizarre quote from your crazy book of fiction. There's not a whiff of evidence for the tales of your wacky, violent storybook, at least as far as the existence of its vicious god goes anyway.

      November 5, 2013 at 10:01 am |
    • Reality # 2

      And once again, why Islam is the horror that it is:

      http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/005.asp et al
      o "Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)
      o
      "Believers, when you encounter the infidels on the march, do not turn your backs to them in flight. If anyone on that day turns his back to them, except it be for tactical reasons...he shall incur the wrath of God and Hell shall be his home..." (Surah 8:12-)

      "Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)

      "...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." (Surah 9:12-)

      "Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:29-)

      "It is He who has sent forth His apostle with guidance and the true Faith [Islam] to make it triumphant over all religions, however much the idolaters [non-Muslims] may dislike it." (Surah 9:31-)

      "If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)

      "Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

      "Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

      "Say: 'Praise be to God who has never begotten a son; who has no partner in His Kingdom..." (Surah 17:111)

      "'How shall I bear a child,' she [Mary] answered, 'when I am a virgin...?' 'Such is the will of the Lord,' he replied. 'That is no difficult thing for Him...God forbid that He [God[ Himself should beget a son!...Those who say: 'The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a monstrous falsehood..." (Surah 19:12-, 29-, 88)

      "Fight for the cause of God with the devotion due to Him...He has given you the name of Muslims..." (Surah 22:78-)

      "Blessed are the believers...who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave-girls, for these are lawful to them)...These are the heirs of Paradise..." (Surah 23:1-5-)

      "Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)

      "Shall the reward of goodness be anything but good?...Dark-eyed virgins sheltered in their tents...They shall recline on green cushions and fine carpets...Blessed be the name of your Lord..." (Surah 55:52-66-)

      November 5, 2013 at 10:32 am |
    • mzh

      Hello All,

      I appreciate your comments on it and this will be a witness that you came to know these verses and wouldn’t be able to deny on that day the day we all will be standing for accountability…

      I see fear in you all… I think you are afraid the challenge is given to mankind that you and the one you submit to can’t create a fly, not even that the challenge goes further – you wouldn’t be able to recover what the fly steal away from you…

      This is just to let the mankind know that how tiny you are but yet you are so arrogant to accept your Creator with Oneness of The Lord Almighty…

      I feel nothing but pity as the way you use your language… don’t even know how to talk nicely with other human fellows…

      Peace to all of you…

      November 5, 2013 at 12:19 pm |
      • Reality # 2

        Infidels will continue to swat koranic-driven Islamic flies wherever we find them.

        The swatter strikes again:

        Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

        This agenda continues as shown by the ma-ssacre in Mumbai, the as-sas-sinations of Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, the Ft. Hood follower of the koran, the Filipino “koranics”and the Boston Marthon bombers.

        And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

        Current crises:

        The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.

        November 5, 2013 at 12:27 pm |
        • Reality # 2

          From Google Translate:

          وستواصل الكفار إلى SWAT الذباب الإسلامية يحركها القرآنية أينما نجدهم .

          منشة الضربات مرة أخرى :

          وكان محمد على الأميين ، معاشرة النساء ، و شهوة يحركها الجشع ، تجار الحروب ، تهلوس العربي ، الذي أيضا قد تزين / تهلوس / يغشون كتاب السيرة طباعي الذي أضاف ليس فقط " الملائكة " ومركبات المتجهة الى القرآن ولكن أيضا جدول أعمال العسكرية لدعم نهب ونهب الأراضي من غير المؤمنين .

          يستمر هذا البرنامج كما هو موضح من قبل MA- ssacre في مومباي، AS- SAS- sinations بوتو و ثيو فان جوخ ، وسلوك من سبعة أطباء مسلم في المملكة المتحدة ، 11/9 إرهابيين ، و السنة انتحاري 24/7 / على جانب الطريق / السوق / المفجرين المسجد ، و 24/7 الانتحارية الشيعية / جانب الطريق / السوق / المفجرين المسجد ، و القاذفات الإسلامية القطارات في المملكة المتحدة و إسبانيا و بالي المجانين ، و كينيا المجانين ، و الباكستاني " koranics " ، على الانتحار فلسطين المفجرين / مطلقي الصواريخ ، و nutcases اللبنانية ، وظائف الجوز طالبان ، و FT . أتباع هود من القرآن الكريم ، و الفلبينية " koranics " و قاذفات القنابل Marthon بوسطن .

          و الذي يمول هذا الوحل و الرائحة الكريهة للإرهاب ؟ و تجار الحروب والإسلامية والإرهاب الشيعي و الثيوقراطية التعذيب من إيران ويعرف أيضا باسم المحور الثالث من الشر ، وكذلك " Wannabees " السنة من المملكة العربية السعودية .

          الأزمات الحالية :

          و ثأر بين السنة والشيعة و إثارة الحرب ، معاشرة النساء (11 زوجات ) ، مؤسس تهلوس

          November 5, 2013 at 12:32 pm |
      • meifumado

        "And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd.'" [Qur'an 17:104]

        Why wont Muslims follow the word of Allah? Allah states Israel is for the Jews.

        November 5, 2013 at 12:51 pm |
    • Reality # 2

      Only for the eyes of sisters and brothers of Islam:

      From the studies of Armstrong, Rushdie, Hirsi Ali, Richardson and Bayhaqi----–

      The Five Steps To Deprogram 1400 Years of Islamic Myths:

      ( –The Steps take less than two minutes to finish- simply amazing, two minutes to bring peace and rationality to over one billion lost souls- Priceless!!!)

      Are you ready?

      Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

      The First Five of the 77 Branches:

      "1. Belief in Allah"

      aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc. should be added to your self-cleansing neurons.

      "2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

      Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gi-b G-nab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "crea-tionist".

      "3. To believe in the existence of angels."

      A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/de-vils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hitt-ites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ug-ly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as f–airies and "tin–ker be-lls". Modern de-vils are classified as the de-mons of the de-mented.

      "4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

      Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

      Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the un-educated masses in line. Today we call them for-tune tellers.

      Prophecies are also invali-dated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

      "5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings
      be upon him) alone."

      Mohammed spent thirty days "fasting" (the Ramadan legend) in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic vi-olence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallu-cinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

      Walk these Five Steps and we guarantee a complete recovery from your Islamic ways!!!!

      Unfortunately, there are not many Muslim commentators/readers on this blog so the "two-minute" cure is not getting to those who need it. If you have a Muslim friend, send him a copy and help save the world.

      Analogous steps are available at your request for deprogramming the myths of Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism and Paganism..

      November 5, 2013 at 12:34 pm |
      • Reality # 2

        From Google Translate:

        من الدراسات من أرمسترونغ ، رشدي ، هيرسي علي ، ريتشاردسون و البيهقي ----–

        في خمس خطوات ل أبطل تأثير 1400 سنة من الأساطير الإسلامية :

        ( – خطوات اتخاذ أقل من دقيقتين لإنهاء – ببساطة مدهشة ، دقيقتين لإحلال السلام والعقلانية إلى أكثر من مليار فقدت النفوس لا تقدر بثمن !)

        هل أنت مستعد؟

        استخدام " الفروع الإسلامية 77 من " الإيمان " مجموعة الإمام البيهقي المترجمة كنقطة انطلاق . في ذلك، وهو ما يفسر الفضائل الأساسية التي تعكس صحيح " الإيمان " ( إيمان ) من خلال الآيات القرآنية ذات الصلة، و أحاديث نبوية . " أي ملخص لطيفة من المعتقدات القرآن والإسلامية .

        الخمسة الأولى من الفروع 77 :

        " 1 . الإيمان بالله "

        كما يعرف أيضا باسم الله ، الرب ، زيوس ، الرب ، الطبيعة الأم ، وما إلى ذلك يجب أن تضاف إلى الخلايا العصبية التطهير الذاتي الخاص .

        " 2 . إلى الاعتقاد بأن كل شيء غيرها مما كان الله غير موجود. بعد ذلك، الله سبحانه وتعالى خلق هذه الأشياء ، وبعد ذلك جاءوا إلى حيز الوجود . "

        التطور و الانفجار الكبير أو " غي ب G- NAB " ( عند بدء الكون لإعادة تدوير ) هي أكثر ترجيحا و ينبغي أن تدرج في " المندرجة " في سبيل الله إذا كنت لا تزال تشكل " بجمعية العقارات، tionist " .

        " 3 . إلى الاعتقاد في وجود الملائكة . "

        A بندا رئيسيا لتطهير الخلايا العصبية . الملائكة / دي VILS هي الإبداعات الأسطورية من الحضارات القديمة ، على سبيل المثال HITT خائبي ، لشرح / تعريف الأحداث الطبيعية ، والاتصالات مع آلهتهم ، والطيور الكبيرة ، والرياح المفاجئة ، وحماة خلال الليالي المظلمة ، وما إلى ذلك لا " ثينجيس افسح المجال ل جميلة / UG- LY " بزيارة أي وقت مضى أو تحدثت إلى محمد ، يسوع ، مريم أو يوسف أو جو سميث . اليوم سوف نصنف الملائكة كما F- airies و " القصدير كير تكون LLS " . تصنف الحديثة دو VILS مثل دي مونس هيئة اجتثاث mented .

        " 4 . إلى الاعتقاد بأن جميع الكتب السماوية التي تم إرسالها إلى الأنبياء مختلفة صحيحا . ومع ذلك ، وبصرف النظر عن القرآن ، كل الكتب الأخرى ليست صالحة بعد الآن . "

        ومن البنود الرئيسية في حذفها. لا يوجد كتب في ولاية روح السماء (إذا كان هناك واحد ) فقط حيث لم تعد هناك ملائكة لكتابة / نشر / توزيعها . القرآن ، OT ، NT وما هي ببساطة الكتب التي كتبت من قبل البشر للبشر .

        اخترعت الأنبياء من قبل الكتبة القديمة عادة للحفاظ على الجماهير غير المتعلمة في الخط. اليوم ونحن ندعو لهم فرز الأصوات لل تناغم .

        النبوءات كما invali مؤرخة من قبل الطبيعية / الله / الله الهدايا من الإرادة الحرة و المستقبل.

        " 5 . إلى الاعتقاد بأن جميع الأنبياء صحيحا . ومع ذلك ، ونحن مأمورون اتباع النبي محمد ( عليه الصلاة والسلام
        صلى الله عليه وسلم) وحده " .

        قضى محمد ثلاثين يوما " الصيام " (أسطورة رمضان) في كهف الساخن قبل أول اتصال له مع الله الملقب الخ الله عبر " ممتزوجات افسح المجال ل جميلة " . الحس السليم يتطلب حذف الخلايا العصبية من # 5 . # 5 هو أيضا المصدر الرئيسي لل الاسلامي VI- olence أي تحول محمد "سريع ، يحركها الجوع " hallu – cinations إلى واقع فظيع لغير المؤمنين .

        المشي هذه خمس خطوات ، ونحن نضمن الانتعاش الكامل من الطرق الإسلامية الخاصة بك! !

        للأسف ، لا توجد العديد من المعلقين مسلم / القراء على هذا بلوق لذلك " مدة دقيقتين " العلاج هو عدم الحصول على لأولئك الذين في حاجة إليها . إذا كان لديك صديق مسلم ، ترسل له نسخة و تساعد في إنقاذ العالم .

        تتوفر خطوات مماثلة في طلبك للحصول على deprogramming الأساطير المسيحية واليهودية والبوذية والهندوسية و الوثنية ..

        November 5, 2013 at 12:39 pm |
  15. Doc Vestibule

    BIBLE QUIZ:

    To cure glaucoma, the Bible advises:
    1) Exorcism
    2) Rubbing fish guts on the eye
    3) Seeking medical assistance
    4) Praying to Jesus
    (Tobit 6:8)

    In the Bible, what happens to stones if nobody praises Jesus?
    1) Nothing. They're inert, inanimate objects.
    2) They scream and cry, praising Jesus in the people's stead
    3) They hurl themselves at disobedient children
    4) They transform into bread
    (Luke 19:40)

    Which of the following creatures is NOT in the Bible:
    1) 4 headed, 4 winged leopard
    2) Fire breathing sea monster
    3) 7 headed, 10 horned amphibious bear
    4) Flying monkeys
    (Daniel 7:6; Job 40; Revelation 13)

    November 5, 2013 at 8:34 am |
    • Live4Him

      @Doc Vestibule : BIBLE QUIZ

      1) Tobit is not in the Bible (other than the Catholic Bible and wasn't even in it until approx 1580).

      2) Even the stones will cry out

      3) The 'amphibious bear' isn't in the Bible, but the 7-head 10-horn is, so I guess I'll give you a pass on this issue and go with the Flying monkeys. BTW – If my memory serves me well, I think that if you check the "fire breathing sea monster" is in chapter 41. Chapter 40 describes the sauropod and 41 has the fire-breathing plesiosaur.

      Now, here's a quiz for you.

      1) Which prophet was married to a prostitute?

      2) What is the relationship between Abraham and Israel?

      3) Who was the first female military leader in the Bible?

      4) Which prophet wore a worn-out belt?

      November 5, 2013 at 10:20 am |
      • Live4Life

        Which god is it that threatens to torture you forever in a fire if you don't worship him?

        Which god is said to have murdered most of humanity with one huge natural disaster?

        Yes, you guessed it, it's the vicious Christian sky jerk.

        November 5, 2013 at 10:39 am |
        • Tony

          Right on.

          November 5, 2013 at 10:39 am |
      • Doc Vestibule

        @Live4Him
        There are many versions of the Bible. I know that you believe your particular copy of the Bible is the true, inerrant one, but the Catholics are quite certain of teh same thing. And they should know – they are the OCs (original Christians).
        The Beast in revelation is described as having ursine features (feet, specifically) and rises up out of the sea – ergo, amphibious bear creature. As for fire-breathing sea creatures – the absurdity should be pretty plain.

        1) Gomer was Hosea's ho/oker wife (Shazam!)
        2) Abe is the father of the children of Israel.
        3) Deborah led an army of Isrealites against the pernicious Canaanites. Oddly enough, the Canaanites leader was slain by another woman who shoved a tent peg through his heathen skull.
        4) by belt, do you mean chagowr, ezowr or abnet?

        November 5, 2013 at 11:09 am |
  16. B.Price

    [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaYR4G7oRiw&w=640&h=360]

    November 5, 2013 at 8:15 am |
    • Numbers

      Social Media Growing Atheism by the Millions

      Added by Rebecca Savastio on October 28, 2013.
      Saved under Rebecca Savastio, U.S.

      http://guardianlv.com/2013/10/social-media-growing-atheism-by-the-millions/

      November 5, 2013 at 8:43 am |
    • Tony

      Wow! The Dr. has the scriptures committed to memory, impressive.

      Psalm 119:11.

      November 5, 2013 at 8:53 am |
    • Sara

      I got bored at the Jesus sacrificing himself for us bit. He's god and only god can pay our debt to god apparently. It's just that kind of kooky stuff that drives so many people from Christianity to Islam, though as he points out of the actual historical evidence (as opposed to logical) Christianity comes out ahead...if you are into those games.

      November 5, 2013 at 9:08 am |
    • Numbers

      [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJHWeW4ySgk&w=640&h=360]

      November 5, 2013 at 10:35 am |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      And the for the next one it is "Seeking Waldo...Finding Nemo"

      November 5, 2013 at 12:18 pm |
  17. myklds

    There was a man who bragged that he possessess the longest stick world could ever known. One day he goes out to the ocean to prove to the world that he could tap the depths of the deepest ocean using his stick. But when tried to dip it into the ocean, it fails to reach the bottom.

    After few tries, he gave-up. Then went back to the shore but instead of finding more sticks to add the lenght of his stick, he preached to all the people he met saying: Ocean, like iced tea in a bar, is bottomless.

    Then, he became, an aoceanist.

    November 5, 2013 at 6:02 am |
    • midwest rail

      How can he preach that something is bottomless and not believe in its existence ?

      November 5, 2013 at 6:17 am |
      • myklds

        What's your point?

        November 5, 2013 at 6:29 am |
      • myklds

        I'm waiting..

        November 5, 2013 at 6:32 am |
      • midwest rail

        Your "fable" makes no sense is the point.

        November 5, 2013 at 6:33 am |
        • myklds

          Honestly, I was expecting that.

          What more I could expect from a genius who thinks that being an atheist means not believing that theists exist? (Chuckles)

          November 5, 2013 at 7:00 am |
        • lol?

          midwest...is railed. LOL!

          November 5, 2013 at 7:05 am |
        • midwest is all air-no brain

          Typical example of an atheist with an ego like blob but the brain like quark.

          November 5, 2013 at 7:09 am |
        • Sara

          No mykids, you got the terminology wrong on a couple of fronts. That doesn't mean you couldn't make your fable make sense, but you'd have to turn the word aoceanist to aoceanfloorist and add the word "positive" or fundamentalist before it. Then you would rightly be ridiculing people who said they were sure something did not exist because they hadn't detected it. Your story would still be open to critique as to whether it was a valid analogy (given that our evidence for the ocean floor is stronger than for gods) but it would at least make sense.

          November 5, 2013 at 7:12 am |
        • atheistschooled

          midwest rail

          That's what you get in posting using only fingers. Sometimes you need a friend, dude!

          November 5, 2013 at 7:14 am |
        • Sara

          midwest is all air-no brain,

          I don't imagine that now that you've had a chance to read why this story doesn't work you are going to be a grown-up and apologize to midwest?

          November 5, 2013 at 7:14 am |
        • myklds

          @Sara

          So you mean, that you also believe that atheists don't believe that theists don't exists?

          November 5, 2013 at 7:17 am |
        • Sara

          mykids, I mean that you don't know how to use English which is, like all spoken languages, a language of consent. It may be imperfect, but you can't go around making up the meanings to suit your own desires.

          November 5, 2013 at 7:20 am |
        • myklds

          Okay, Sara..Well I'm not that sure but you're seem so serious and meant everything you say. I felt a somewhat obliged to answer you in the same way.

          First and foremost- The word "oceanists" seems not to exist in the dictionary.

          Second- I'm not particular in term usage

          Third- The term was used only as decoratives (to add fun) , thus, should not affect the whole point of my post.

          Fourth- I think mid west rail was a lil off-base pointing it out instead of the real point.

          Lastly but not the least- You shouldn't have reproved 'mwaa-nb', it's midwest who needs to learn some manners. (Chuckles)

          November 5, 2013 at 8:02 am |
        • Sara

          mykids,

          I think what should have happened was that you repost a revised version of the fable with the raised issues addressed. As I mentioned, I think it actually makes a valid point against a very small group of people.

          November 5, 2013 at 9:15 am |
      • Sara

        I've got to agree with midwest. First, this guy would be an acoeanbottomist if he didn't believe there was an ocean bottom. He presumambly lives right next to the ocean and will keep fishing there and continue to use his languages word for ocean, so he can't be an aoceanist.

        Second, his climing there was no bottom would be no different intellectually than the other visitor who became a seamonsterist claiming that this proved there was a grand seamonster at the bottom who kept opening it's mouth to swallow the stick. Both would be silly, and one would be Christians, the other some atheists.

        Third, note I said some atheists. If you check the OED the word describes a lack of belief or a disbelief. All aoceanbottomists lack a belief in the ocean bottom, but only a minority would likely actively disbelieve. At any rate, you oversimplify with your terminology.

        November 5, 2013 at 7:07 am |
        • Thought of the Day

          And this round goes to the Atheists.

          November 5, 2013 at 7:17 am |
        • Let's all be specific

          SARA

          So atheists must be called aGodists

          November 5, 2013 at 7:25 am |
        • Thought of the Day

          That would be aGodSists, since atheism is not specific to any one particular religion.

          November 5, 2013 at 7:34 am |
        • Sara

          Let's be...go ahead and use that term if you like, but it would be a small 'g' as all gods would be included. I don't like the term myself, but nitpicking it is just a matter of terminology. If that interests you, go ahead, but the word used is most likely going to be chosen by atheists themselves and it's kind of like arguing with your doctor about your anemia, because, after all, you do have blood. Anyway, it's all irrelevant to the 'fable' here which was just poorly written and can't bee defended on semantics.

          November 5, 2013 at 7:36 am |
        • myklds

          Fables are represented by animals, stop insulting aoceanists. LOL!

          November 5, 2013 at 8:08 am |
        • I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that

          Sara

          I can't believe you actually took the time to seriously respond to such petulant tomfoolery (note to self: use the word tomfoolery more often). It's admirable in a way. Still though, you only persist in feeding egos.

          November 5, 2013 at 9:08 am |
        • Sara

          Dave, yeah I can't believe it myself, but I'm housesitting without any good books and waiting for my laundry to finish, so I've got to do something. 🙂

          November 5, 2013 at 9:12 am |
        • I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that

          Boredom is our greatest foe.

          November 5, 2013 at 9:19 am |
        • lol??

          Sara is just killing time. Her thought process indicates this is NOT her first time. The debate fetish is a marker for serial time killers, while they are waiting on judgment. Ajudgism is a serious incurable malady.

          November 5, 2013 at 10:34 am |
        • Maddy

          That lol?? is going to try and insult Sara amuses me greatly. Apparently a spirited debate is beyond lolly's ken; so much better to utter snarkisms that make no sense, right?

          November 5, 2013 at 11:18 am |
    • Lisa

      mykids
      That's silly. Before the deepest regions of the ocean were calculated no scientist suggested that there may be parts that go on forever. Shallower areas of ocean floor were always accessible, and people understood that the world was round, thus the ocean could not be "bottomless".

      What do you call folks who can be shown the depth of the ocean, however, but who still insist that it's bottomless? I mean, you can show creationists the clear and undeniable mountain of evidence for evolution, and still they deny it's there.

      November 5, 2013 at 8:18 am |
      • lol??

        Just show the wurld a serpent breakin' out of a chicken egg and getting run over on the road by a Hells Angel. Writhing in pain the snake sayz, "Why, why, why did I try to cross the road???!!???"

        November 5, 2013 at 10:51 am |
        • Maddy

          What the hell are you smoking? Put the pipe down.

          November 5, 2013 at 12:02 pm |
  18. no religion

    Y did the rich young ruler fail to qualify for heaven?

    November 5, 2013 at 4:20 am |
    • Bootyfunk

      he refused to make a human sacrifice out of his son...?

      November 5, 2013 at 4:41 am |
    • Lisa

      e refused to give a tenth of it to the preacher?

      November 5, 2013 at 8:19 am |
      • Lisa

        "He" refused

        November 5, 2013 at 8:20 am |
    • Cleetus Allreetus Alrightus

      Why did the chicken cross the road?

      November 5, 2013 at 9:11 am |
      • Doc Vestibule

        What is a rhetorical question?

        November 5, 2013 at 9:13 am |
        • Richard Cranium

          What is the difference between an apple?

          November 5, 2013 at 1:59 pm |
  19. Bobbie Jo Justice

    people should not be worshiping a mass murdering child killer, or as he is also called... the christian god.

    November 4, 2013 at 7:07 pm |
    • lol??

      wiki,

      "................Edward D. Cowart (February 17, 1925 – August 3, 1987) was an American lawyer (Dade County Circuit Court Judge). He is best known as presiding judge at the trial of serial killer Ted Bundy in 1979 (considered sometimes as the first "official" serial killer trial), where he imposed a death sentence. Cowart is remembered for his sentencing, which included these words:[1][2]

      It is further ordered that on such scheduled date that you will be put to death by a current of electricity,sufficient to cause your immediate death and that current of electricity shall continue to be passed through your body until you are dead.

      Take care of yourself, young man. I say that to you sincerely; take care of yourself, please. It is an utter tragedy for this court to see such a total waste of humanity as I’ve experienced in this courtroom.

      You’re a bright young man. You would have made a good lawyer and I would have loved to have you practice in front of me, but you went another way, partner. Take care of yourself. I don’t feel any animosity toward you. I want you to know that. Once again, take care of yourself.
      —Judge Edward Cowart[1].............................."

      November 4, 2013 at 7:20 pm |
      • midwest rail

        This should be entertaining, so I'll bite – relevance ?

        November 4, 2013 at 7:26 pm |
        • lol??

          Why ask me?? Ask BJ.

          November 4, 2013 at 7:37 pm |
        • midwest rail

          I'm asking you the relevance of what YOU posted as answer. Is that easy enough ?

          November 4, 2013 at 7:40 pm |
      • Bobbie Jo Justice

        The cold hearted christian god loves killing people, and if he gets to murder some children, he really shoots a big load.

        November 4, 2013 at 7:27 pm |
        • lol??

          murder

          "Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law.............."

          November 4, 2013 at 7:35 pm |
        • corridorwatcher

          The illustrations I have seen show that god only has a big head and hands. Because he is god, he has no need of the other parts.

          November 4, 2013 at 10:15 pm |
        • Lisa

          God has no head in The Simpsons, but does have five fingers, weirdly enough.

          November 5, 2013 at 8:22 am |
        • Charm Quark

          The god in The Simpsons is a fantasy, oh wait, they all are.

          November 5, 2013 at 9:16 am |
        • Lisa

          Quark
          My kids (and I include my husband in this) have the Simpsons video game. Good thing that there isn't any blasphemy laws on the books, it's really funny.

          November 5, 2013 at 9:26 am |
  20. I wonder

    Looking at that picture of the U.S. Supreme Court building got me wondering about who/what all of those sculpted figures are all around/in the building. I found this site with detailed descriptions. Moses is there, sure enough, but also Solon, Hammurabi, Confucius, many Greek & Roman figures, Mohammad, and even the hare and the tortoise from Aesop!

    Don't freak out that it's a ffrf site. The descriptions are detailed and accurate.

    http://ffrf.org/faq/freethought/item/15139-did-you-know

    November 4, 2013 at 6:58 pm |
    • so

      what's your point?

      November 5, 2013 at 6:04 am |
    • Sara

      I believe they are supposed to be various law makers.

      November 5, 2013 at 7:31 am |
    • Lisa

      Only the last six Commandments are visible, none of the religious ones, and the beard on the Moses figure covers up words making it look like he's actually telling people to "Kill" and "Steal". In all, not a very good monument to support any idea that this is a nation under God.

      November 5, 2013 at 9:23 am |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.