home
RSS
Atheist gets her day at the Supreme Court
November 1st, 2013
04:39 PM ET

Atheist gets her day at the Supreme Court

By Bill Mears, CNN Supreme Court Producer

(CNN)– Linda Stephens has lived in her upstate New York community for more than three decades and has long been active in civic affairs.

But as an atheist, those views have put her at the center of a personal, political, and legal fight that has reached the U.S. Supreme Court.

The issue is public prayer at her local town board meetings, another contentious case over the intersection of faith and the civic arena.

The justices on Wednesday will hear arguments over whether Greece, New York, may continue sponsoring what it calls "inclusive" prayers at its open sessions, on government property.

Stephens and co-plaintiff Susan Galloway have challenged the policy, saying virtually all of those invited to offer legislative prayers over the years were Christians.

"It's very divisive when you bring government into religion," Stephens told CNN from her home.

"I don't believe in God, and Susan is Jewish, so to hear these ministers talk about Jesus and even have some of them who personally question our motives, it's just not appropriate."

The town of about 94,000 residents counters that after concerns from the two women and others, it sought diverse voices, including a Wiccan priestess, to offer invocations. Officials say they do not review the content of the remarks, nor censor any language.

"The faith of the prayer giver does not matter at all," said John Auberger, Greece's board supervisor, who began the practice shortly after taking office 1998. "We accept anyone who wants to come in and volunteer to give the prayer to open up our town meetings."

A federal appeals court in New York found the board's policy to be an unconstitutional violation of the Constitution's Establishment Clause, which forbids any government "endorsement" of religion.

Those judges said it had the effect of "affiliating the town with Christianity."

"To the extent that the state cannot make demands regarding the content of legislative prayers," said Judge Guido Calabresi, "municipalities have few means to forestall the prayer-giver who cannot resist the urge to proselytize. These difficulties may well prompt municipalities to pause and think carefully before adopting legislative prayer, but they are not grounds on which to preclude its practice."

Some legal experts say while the high court has allowed public prayers in general, it has not set boundaries on when they might become too sectarian in nature.

"The case involves a test between two different kinds of legal rules," said Thomas Goldstein, SCOTUSblog.com publisher and a leading Washington attorney.

"The Supreme Court has broadly approved legislative prayer without asking too many questions. But in other cases where the government is involved with religion, it has looked at lots of different circumstances. So we just don't know whether this court will be completely approving of legislative prayers in this instance."

The justices are now being asked to offer more firm guidelines over when and if such public prayers are constitutionally acceptable.

Felt marginalized

Galloway and Stephens say the elected board of the community outside Rochester almost always invited Christian clergy to open the meetings, usually with sectarian prayers. And they say they felt "marginalized" by the practice.

"When we tried to speak with the town, we were told basically if we didn't like the prayers, we didn't have to listen," said Stephens, "or could stand out in the hallway while they were going on."

Americans United for Separation of Church and State, the Washington-based group that is representing the two women, cited records showing that between 1999 and 2010, approximately two-thirds of the invocations contained the words "Jesus Christ," Jesus," Holy Spirit," or "Your Son."

And the lawsuit claims that from 1999 through 2007, every meeting had a Christian-only invocation. Following the complaints from the plaintiffs, four other faiths were invited in 2008, including a Baha'i leader and a Jewish lay person.

The plaintiffs say the Christian-only invocations resumed from January 2009 through June 2010. They claim those invited to the monthly meetings were selected by a city employee from a local guide that had no non-Christian faiths listed.

"Politics and religion simply don't mix, and they certainly don't mix in the local context of the Greece town council," said the Rev. Barry Lynn, AUSCS executive director.

"The town seems to take the position that because once or twice over a decade, it hears from someone of a different religion, that somehow is inclusive. It trivializes what's going here - a local government that should be willing and interested in participation of all its citizens, it wants those citizens to participate in an almost inevitably Christian prayer, in order to begin doing their business."

Different rulings

While the 2nd Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals in New York last year unanimously ruled against Greece's policy, other courts around the country have found such invocations - if inclusive and limited in scope - to be permissible.

Congress regularly opens its sessions with a prayer. Wednesday's invocation by House Chaplain the Rev. Patrick Conroy began: "Eternal God, we give you thanks for giving us another day. Once again, we come to ask wisdom, patience, peace, and understanding for the members of this people's House."

Nearly 120 members of Congress, mostly Republicans, along with several state attorneys general have filed supporting legal briefs backing the city. So has the Obama administration.

"The history of prayers offered in connection with legislative deliberation in this country makes clear that a legislative body need not affirmatively solicit a court-mandated variety of different religious faiths– from inside and outside the borders governed by the legislative body– in order to avoid running afoul of the Establishment Clause," said Justice Department lawyers' in their amicus brief.

The Alliance Defending Freedom, a legal ministry based in Scottsdale, Arizona, filed the lawsuit on behalf of the Greece Town Board, saying the Supreme Court has upheld the practice of government bodies "to acknowledge America's religious heritage and invoke divine guidance and blessings upon their work."

"A few people should not be able to extinguish the traditions of our nation merely because they heard something they didn't like," said Brett Harvey, an attorney for the group. "Because the authors of the Constitution invoked God's blessing on public proceedings, this tradition shouldn't suddenly be deemed unconstitutional."

Stephens realizes the stakes are high for her community and for the law as a whole. But on a personal level, this legal fight has been tough.

"I've received something of a backlash, both Susan and me," the retired librarian said. "Threatening letters, some vandalism to my property, things like that. The prayers, and all the controversy, it makes you feel like an outcast, like we don't count in our town."

The case is Town of Greece, N.Y. v. Galloway (12-696). A ruling is expected by early summer.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Atheism • Belief • Christianity • Church and state • Courts

soundoff (6,237 Responses)
  1. Sussay

    I'd say the evangelicals need to have some boundaries set for them... they don't seem to know or respect where the line between fantasy and reality is.

    November 6, 2013 at 9:30 am |
    • Barry G.

      I don't believe the founders of this country would agree with you.

      November 6, 2013 at 9:35 am |
      • If horses had Gods .. their Gods would be horses

        I don't think you know what the founding fathers thought. They were not the christians you believe them to have been.

        November 6, 2013 at 9:41 am |
        • Mark

          Like u do!

          November 6, 2013 at 12:22 pm |
      • Doc Vestibule

        As evidenced by the safeguards the FF put in place to ensure that religion wouldn't unduly influcence government (and vice versa)?

        November 6, 2013 at 9:48 am |
        • Mark

          They had no such intentions. In fact, they expected government to be filled with people of great faith.

          November 6, 2013 at 12:24 pm |
      • Really

        I don't think anybody wants religion to influence government, only that people not get bent out of shape if someone talks about their internal world.

        November 6, 2013 at 10:07 am |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          Why is anyone's "internal world" relevent in a gov't meeting? What motivation could they have to talk about their "internal world" on gov't time except to attempt to give their "internal world" importance? There is a time and place for everything and that ain't it.

          November 6, 2013 at 10:56 am |
  2. Blessed are the Cheesemakers

    The question I have for anyone who is okay with what so many city councils are doing is this: Why is it so important to you that others have to listen to your prayers? Every person at a city council meeting can pray silently any time they want. If the council wants to have a prayer before the meeting, they can do so in their offices before they start the meeting. The attendees at the meeting can pray before the meeting starts, individually or as a group. Why does it matter to you so much that others who don’t wish to pray have to stand by silently while you do? I think the answer to that question is patently obvious.

    November 6, 2013 at 9:29 am |
    • If horses had Gods .. their Gods would be horses

      Absolutely ... the problem is not their choice to pray, it's their insistence that they impose it on others. There is no reason they can't keep it to themselves other than they need affirmation that they are part of a group, there is safety in numbers.

      November 6, 2013 at 9:39 am |
      • Really

        I don't think you know what they need or why they are doing what they do. Have you ever asked them?

        November 6, 2013 at 9:44 am |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          Apparently you seem to think you know why they need to pray in front of people that may not want to.....please share.

          I think it is to make themselves and their belief to seem more important and to attempt to give it some "authority" it would not otherwise have.

          November 6, 2013 at 10:27 am |
    • Sara

      Exactly, Cheese. If their agenda were only to pray they could do that silently, at home, or in a small group before the meeting. If the agenda is, however, to establish their position of dominance they are making exactly the right moves...and have got away with it for years in many arenas. But call them out on their motivations and they'll hide, perhaps even from themselves.

      November 6, 2013 at 9:43 am |
      • Really

        Same idea to you. Unless you ask their motivation you don't know what it is.

        November 6, 2013 at 9:45 am |
        • fintastic

          Is it not their motivation to evangelize?

          November 6, 2013 at 10:22 am |
        • Sara

          Even if you ask you don't know. Both asking and watching are evidence, and the evidence better fits the theory that they are trying to evangelize than that they are following the bible, since public prayer is very clearly criticised in that text and praying alone or silently causes no hardship.

          November 6, 2013 at 10:25 am |
    • Really

      There are plenty of non religious, cheese who don't care if they pray or not as it is irrelevant. Forcing silence on someone is relevant.
      Incidentally the only difference between "us" and "them" is who currently has an imaginary friend and who doesn't.

      If you want my personal opinion having read your posts before I think you and many like you are personally scarred by religions having grown up in them and now want to take that scar to your personal world views including working to put an end to largely irrelevant topics.

      November 6, 2013 at 9:54 am |
      • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

        No one is forcing them to be silent, they can sing to the rafters in church, they can preach in the street. They can print fliers and create websites, they can take ads out in the paper. They can have TV shows and whole TV stations to say whatever they like.

        What we are talking about is a public, gov't meeting where they are not allowed to preach to a captive audience on the gov't dime. According to your logic if they are not allowed to preach absolutely whenever and wherever they like they are being "silenced"...that is absurd and you are being obtuse.

        And yes I have been scared by religion and indoctination...I think the whole planet has been.... BUT I held to the complete seperation of church and state when I was kneeling, believing fool. That part has never changed so it is irrelevent to your point. You are throwing out a red herring to attempt to deflect the argument....rather dishonest bub....It didn't get past me that you accuse us of not lnowing their motivations because we didn't "ask" them but you youself seem to know ours without asking us. Why don't you polish that turd of an argument some more.

        November 6, 2013 at 10:42 am |
  3. Live4Him

    @truthprevails1 : Most honest people are Agnostic given that no-one can be [100%] certain about anything.

    Agnostic indicates a lack of knowledge to build faith upon, not the lack of faith. The only true agnostic person is a newborn (and young child) or one who has grown up in a society far from other societies (maybe). Anyone who has had some exposure to some theistic teachings (be it atheist, monotheist or polytheist) has formed a viewpoint that influences their beliefs.

    November 6, 2013 at 9:23 am |
    • Barry G.

      Don't all societies–no matter how primitive or remote–realize that the divine is evident?

      "The heavens declare the glory of YHWH, and the skies proclaim his handiwork."
      –Psalm 19

      "The fool says in their heart, 'there is no God'".

      –Psalm 14

      November 6, 2013 at 9:33 am |
      • Jake

        To answer your question: No. Do a little research and you'll find plenty of examples.

        November 6, 2013 at 9:37 am |
    • If horses had Gods .. their Gods would be horses

      A newborn is absolutely atheist, they are without a belief in a God(s) or other deities. A person who is atheist simply does not believe in a God(s), it's not about "knowing" it's about having a reason to believe deities exist & there is no reason to believe so. An agnostic is simply someone who rides a fence because of societies attempts at indoctrination. I am as much a-theist as I am a-unicornist or a-gnomist or a-(insert infinite number of non existing things with no proof or evidence).

      November 6, 2013 at 9:33 am |
    • Jake

      Incorrect. A child is born an atheist, having no believe in the man-made concept of god. It is only through the teaching of religious society that anyone moves from atheism to agnosticism to religion.

      November 6, 2013 at 9:35 am |
    • Sara

      Live4Him,

      Agnosticism refers to beliefs about knowledge. It has nothing to do with whether your worldview is environmentally influenced, which obviously it is.

      November 6, 2013 at 9:36 am |
      • Live4Him

        @If horses had Gods .. their Gods would be horses : A newborn is absolutely atheist

        A newborn has no concept of any god, and thus no-god is not a possibility. Thus, a newborn is not an atheist, but an agnostic. Unless you think that you can get a newborn to say they believe no god exist? 🙂

        Sara : Agnosticism refers to beliefs about knowledge.

        That may be how you want to define it, but look to meanings of the root words:

        a- : Greek word for not
        gnositism: knowledge

        Thus, agnosticism means lacking knowledge. ALL beliefs are based upon some knowledge. For example evolutionism is based upon the knowledge of a perceived structure of life, which adherents claim is the evolutionary tree. If one had no knowledge of said tree (or any other related facts), then evolution couldn't be conceived.

        November 6, 2013 at 10:06 am |
        • Observer

          Live4Him,

          Stick with the DEFINITION of the word rather than the ancient root unless you want to explain words like "wholesome".

          November 6, 2013 at 10:13 am |
        • Well Duh

          As AtheistSteve stated yesterday, "Theists believe in the existence of God or gods. Anything else, intentional or not is (not theist) or atheist." No knowledge, no belief, no belief, Atheist.

          November 6, 2013 at 10:17 am |
        • Sara

          Live4Him, here's the OED definition of atheism. Note that lacking belief is all it takes to make one an atheist, although using this term for infants is obviously silly.

          noun
          disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

          November 6, 2013 at 10:18 am |
        • Sara

          You are likewise confused about the meaning of agnosticism, defined in the OED below (you can get better definitions from any philosophy dictionary):

          noun
          a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

          You can't just derive word meanings from roots. If you could, anyone with anemia would be lacking blood and anyone eating avacados would be chowing down on testicles.

          November 6, 2013 at 10:20 am |
        • fintastic

          "Unless you think that you can get a newborn to say they believe no god exist?"

          To say I believe that I don't believe? how ignorant.

          November 6, 2013 at 10:26 am |
  4. Mark

    In my opinion, anything that tempers, reduces or eliminates religion
    in any part of the United States government, is a good thing. I'm
    not talking morality, which can have a non-religious form, and a
    basis in the laws of the land.

    November 6, 2013 at 9:20 am |
    • SDCinNS

      What kind of morality do you endorse? A Judeo-Christian morality? An Islamic morality? (They are very different of course). A wiccan/witchcraft morality (is there such a thing?). When you say you endorse "morality" – the question becomes... whose?

      November 6, 2013 at 9:36 am |
      • misunderstood

        "wiccan/witchcraft morality (is there sucha thing)"

        Yes in fact there is. If you weren't so ignroant you would know that Wiccan is based off the tenent of do no harm to others, and if you wish evil upon someone else it comes back to three, times three, times three, better known as the three fold law.

        November 6, 2013 at 9:46 am |
    • Live4Him

      @Mark : In my opinion, anything that tempers, reduces or eliminates religion in any part of the United States government, is a good thing.

      How do you propose to eliminate every trace of faith (i.e. atheism, monotheism, polytheism) from society (or a part thereof)? The only way to accomplish that is to bequest omniscience to everyone. Do you have that ability?

      November 6, 2013 at 9:42 am |
      • Sara

        Mark said 'government' not 'society'. Was your reinterpretation paranoid delusion on a pathetic attempt at manipulating and misinterpreting the conversation?

        November 6, 2013 at 9:45 am |
      • Doc Vestibule

        He didn't say "faith", he said "religion".

        November 6, 2013 at 9:46 am |
        • Sara

          LOL, Live4Him is in classic form today.

          November 6, 2013 at 10:02 am |
      • fintastic

        "How do you propose to eliminate every trace of faith"

        Not all faith.... only faith in the ridiculous. Example... "I have faith that my car will start this morning"

        November 6, 2013 at 10:29 am |
  5. Brother Maynard

    Hmm
    This story makes me wonder why Xtians are not suing the city for a greater time allotment for their prayers.
    If 2 min of prayer before the city council meeting is "ok" ( to recieve devine wisdom ) ... would not 20 min be better? or 2 hours? or 2 days?
    Also should not the council thank god for the successfull passage or denial of a motion?
    Why are not Xtians fighting for these actions?

    November 6, 2013 at 9:01 am |
    • Brother Maynard

      ... also wondering if the council member make the sign of the cross and point to "heaven" when a motion passes?
      Like athletes do when they score a touchdown or hit a home run?
      If not ... why not??

      November 6, 2013 at 9:36 am |
    • Sara

      Apparently there is a hidden commandment specifying exactly the amount of other people's time and money it is acceptable to waste in pushing your religious agenda.

      November 6, 2013 at 9:38 am |
    • Brother Maynard

      [ knock knock knock ] – Xtians
      [ knock knock knock ] – Xtians
      [ knock knock knock ] – Xtians
      ... waiting for an answer ... anybody home ?

      November 6, 2013 at 10:02 am |
  6. mzh

    @Well Duh

    There is nothing can be shown to you or any other creatures about God the Lord Almighty. Moses (pbuh) wanted to see Him and he was told that you are not made to see Me, even after that Moses wanted to see Him then he was told that see the highest mountain, if that mountain stays then you will be able to see Me but the mountain become dust and Moses was unconscious. Lets take an example in human perspective view: when you create something for example build a website for a grocery store, you will not be part of it physically but you are above it. So the way Quran teaches that The Almighty God has created the entire creation but He is not part of the creation and He is above the creation but unfortunately most of the mankind do the opposite by making The Creator part of the creation. I hope it will clear little to understand…

    The attributes you asked for, here are few of the attributes that have been mentioned in the Quran and see if does make any sense to you… for example: one of His attributes is that “All Hearer” does this mean His hearing ability like a human? The answer is NO… because He hears the entire creation at a time and do not fails to hear anyone even from one ant out of its entire population. We can not comprehend any of His attributes and that why Quran also teaches to stop thinking about attributes as if you think and max you could think of what is human ability but He is beyond this…

    112:1 – Say, "He is Allah, [who is] One
    112:2 – Allah, the Eternal Refuge
    112:3 – He neither begets nor is born
    112:4 – Nor is there to Him any equivalent."

    2:255 – Allah – there is no deity except Him, the Ever-Living, the Sustainer of [all] existence. Neither drowsiness overtakes Him nor sleep. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. Who is it that can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is [presently] before them and what will be after them, and they encompass not a thing of His knowledge except for what He wills. His Kursi extends over the heavens and the earth, and their preservation tires Him not. And He is the Most High, the Most Great.

    59:22 – He is Allah, other than whom there is no deity, Knower of the unseen and the witnessed. He is the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.
    59:23 – He is Allah, other than whom there is no deity, the Sovereign, the Pure, the Perfection, the Bestower of Faith, the Overseer, the Exalted in Might, the Compeller, the Superior. Exalted is Allah above whatever they associate with Him.
    59:24 – He is Allah, the Creator, the Inventor, the Fashioner; to Him belong the best names. Whatever is in the heavens and earth is exalting Him. And He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

    Peace!!!

    November 6, 2013 at 8:54 am |
    • Ted

      mzh, you keep dumping spam on us from your particular book of supersti.tions (the Quran). Most of us here aren't stupid enough to buy into it. How about you get honest for a change, and post some of the violent retribution that your religion of terror demands...

      November 6, 2013 at 9:07 am |
    • Kevin

      Jesus is the only true way to Salvation because he died for your sins.

      November 6, 2013 at 9:08 am |
      • mvrunner

        "Jesus Christ died for somebody's sins, but not mine." – Patti Smith

        "Choose your mythology, or go out and create your own reality." – Me

        November 6, 2013 at 9:13 am |
      • Well Duh

        @Kevin
        "Jesus is the only true way to Salvation because he died for your sins."

        Jesus is dead?

        November 6, 2013 at 9:25 am |
        • Logic

          He got better...

          November 6, 2013 at 9:39 am |
      • J Gaston

        Yes, because nothing says sacrifice like sending your son who is also you to die so that you, who is also your son, will forgive people of their sins and, as a result, your son, who is also you, gets to reside next to you (who is also your son) in paradise and supreme rule for all eternity.

        Makes perfect sense.

        November 6, 2013 at 9:31 am |
      • Well Duh

        Christians view Jesus' dying on the cross as some huge sacrifice, but really, where's the sacrifice?

        God sends himself down in human form, endures some human pain for a few hours, then returns to heaven. Not much of a sacrifice if you ask me.

        If He really wants to impress me with a sacrifice, He can send himself to the hell He created for eternity.

        November 6, 2013 at 9:36 am |
      • Bob

        Kevin, your post is nonsense and that core tenet of your religion re sacrifice is absurd and wrong. The whole Jesus-sacrifice thing is a steaming pile of bull-do. How is it again that your omnipotent being couldn't do his saving bit without the whole silly Jesus hoopla? And how was Jesus' death a "sacrifice", when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers? Pretty pathetic "god" that you've made for yourself there.

        Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
        Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
        http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

        November 6, 2013 at 9:45 am |
      • Ally

        I have a few issues with this statement of yours...(Mind you, I AM a believer in God)

        First, why would God, the creator of this ENTIRE UNIVERSE and everything in it, send an INNOCENT man to die for our sin?

        Is God not capable of forgiving sins Himself? I mean, He DID create us.

        Shouldn't it scare you to be judged by a God who killed His own "son" for the sins of others?

        And finally, why would God even need a son? God created everything and everyone on His own. What would he do with kids?

        Jesus himself said in the Bible: he of his own self can not do anything without the power of God. He also said God is greater than him. So what does that tell you? Jesus was simply sent as a messenger...just like all the other prophets before him, like Moses, Noah, Abraham, Joshua, etc etc.

        November 6, 2013 at 10:21 am |
    • Live4Him

      Oh yes, the omniscient Allah – the maker of mistakes, the fake god, the deceiver.

      And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods – Surah 5:116

      November 6, 2013 at 9:12 am |
      • Jude

        1 Peter 3:15

        November 6, 2013 at 9:31 am |
      • Ally

        @Live4Him

        How does that verse support your view of Allah? In that verse, God will ask Jesus (on Judgement Day) if he ever told his followers to worship him(Jesus) or his mother(Mary) as gods...because that's basically what many Catholics and Christians do these day. I don't see how that makes Allah "fake" or deceiving.

        November 6, 2013 at 10:31 am |
      • Joey

        LIve4HIm in order for the Muslims to be wrong you must first establish that Christians got the trinity right. In order to do this you can't use the bible. So do you have any proof that Muslims are wrong about the trinity and Christians are correct? Also, why do you ignore this question every single time I post it?

        November 6, 2013 at 12:45 pm |
    • Well Duh

      How very nondescript. There is more information about other fictional characters like Spider-Man, Superman, and Harry Potter.

      How can you justify believing in something you can neither detect nor describe?

      November 6, 2013 at 9:23 am |
  7. Moshe

    May God grant wisdom to the justices of SCOTUS as the hearing begins.

    November 6, 2013 at 7:48 am |
    • Aaron

      Deuteronomy 11:13-21
      Hebrew
      V'hayah im shamo'a tish'm'u el mitz'votai
      And it shall come to pass if you surely listen to the commandments
      Hebrew
      asher anokhi m'tzaveh et'khem hayom
      that I command you today
      Hebrew
      l'ahavah et Adonai Eloheikhem ul'av'do b'khol l'vav'khem uv'khol naf'sh'khem
      to love the Lord your God and to serve him with all your heart and all your soul,
      Hebrew
      V'natati m'tar ar'tz'khem b'ito yoreh umal'kosh
      v'asaf'ta d'ganekha v'tirosh'kha v'yitz'harekha.
      That I will give rain to your land, the early and the late rains,
      that you may gather in your grain, your wine and your oil.
      Hebrew
      V'natati eisev b'sad'kha liv'hem'tekha v'akhal'ta v'sava'ta.
      And I will give grass in your fields for your cattle and you will eat and you will be satisfied.
      Hebrew
      Hisham'ru lakhem pen yif'teh l'vav'khem
      v'sar'tem va'avad'tem Elohim acheirim v'hish'tachavitem lahem
      Beware, lest your heart be deceived
      and you turn and serve other gods and worship them.
      Amen.

      November 6, 2013 at 7:55 am |
      • Aaron

        Ani Adonai Eloheikhem
        asher hotzei'ti et'khem mei'eretz Mitz'rayim lih'yot lakhhem leilohim
        Ani Adonai Eloheikhem

        November 6, 2013 at 8:03 am |
    • Science Works

      Moshe

      No wisdom in the devil and Scalia believes the devil is real.

      November 6, 2013 at 9:13 am |
    • Robert

      Funny how your "god" is so wildly inconsistent in how he gives out reasoning ability and "wisdom"...

      November 6, 2013 at 9:17 am |
  8. lol??

    If the A&A's would take time out and stop emoting for a bit they would see how illogical their position is.

    A)No God
    B)No right or wrong
    C)No sin
    D)Public Servants are free to do what they want.

    November 6, 2013 at 7:34 am |
    • Robert

      Funny and ironic to see you whining about someone else's logic.

      November 6, 2013 at 9:10 am |
    • J Gaston

      Oh yes, which explains why 95 percent of the prison population in the United States identify as Christian... it's because the Atheists have no morals.

      November 6, 2013 at 9:14 am |
      • lol??

        Psychopaths know how to manipulate parole boards and shrinks.

        November 6, 2013 at 9:42 am |
    • Dave

      If there is no right or wrong, how can the issue at hand be decided?

      November 6, 2013 at 9:18 am |
      • Helena Troy

        So, who says there's no right or wrong? Society determines that...

        November 6, 2013 at 9:25 am |
        • lol??

          Red states, blue states and Bloods and Crips??

          November 6, 2013 at 9:31 am |
    • If horses had Gods .. their Gods would be horses

      A)No God .... you have this one right!
      B)No right or wrong ... of course there is right & wrong, it is part of a civil society.
      C)No sin ..... sin is just another word for laws, which we already have.
      D)Public Servants are free to do what they want. ... even by your logic (free will) they can, but it is not without consequences.

      November 6, 2013 at 9:26 am |
  9. lol??

    The A&A's are sure ratcheting up the hate on this article. Just because the mobster PUblic Servants are panicking and prayin'!!

    November 6, 2013 at 6:52 am |
    • Science Works

      And you this extreme lol?? ?

      Prayer does this !

      Christian homeschoolers receive maximum jail time for death of child

      http://www.examiner.com/article/christian-homeschoolers-receive-maximum-jail-time-for-death-of-child

      November 6, 2013 at 7:25 am |
  10. saggyroy

    Maybe we should sacrifice an animal or a virgin before the meetings to make sure we are appeasing the god(s). Oh wait that's just crazy talk.

    November 6, 2013 at 5:44 am |
    • HotAirAce

      No more crazy than being a member of the dead jew zombie cannibal vampire death cult aka christianity.

      November 6, 2013 at 5:54 am |
    • One one

      God likes burnt offerings. He likes the smell of burning flesh.

      November 6, 2013 at 6:03 am |
    • Sara

      I think we should make members of the house and senate dance naked around a bonfire singing prases to the sun before each session.

      November 6, 2013 at 6:06 am |
      • One one

        That would certainly increase public interest in the meetings.

        November 6, 2013 at 6:18 am |
        • Sara

          Wouldn't it just? And all those folks who need to imagine people naked to speak would have so much easier a time testifying in Congress. And every morning with breakfast you could flip on the news to see who put on a few pounds.

          November 6, 2013 at 6:24 am |
        • HotAirAce

          Or induce vomiting. . .

          November 6, 2013 at 6:31 am |
      • Sue

        Sara, if there was a Like button for your comment, I'd click it.

        November 6, 2013 at 9:09 am |
    • lol??

      saggy, would you settle for virtual virgins?? The miracles of modern surgery!! The insurance corps are runnin' preXmas specials in honor of Obama's HealthScare.

      November 6, 2013 at 7:20 am |
  11. Tim W.

    I'm Agnostic and see nothing wrong with prayer, after all they are praying for your good health and well being ! I think we need all the help we can get and if praying to some God, Allah, Thor, Balor, Kane, Aine, No-Cha or Zeus can help then what is the problem ?

    November 6, 2013 at 2:24 am |
    • Bootyfunk

      the problem is i'm an atheist, don't want to hear it and shouldn't have to.
      they are promoting their religion through the gov't.

      they can pray outside a gov't meeting.

      November 6, 2013 at 3:00 am |
      • saggyroy

        I think there are a couple things: 1. I don't want to hear it either. and 2. It is embarrassing that in the 21st century that we pray to mythological figures for guidance in matter where it should be by logic and reason alone. 3. What next animal sacrifices before a meeting?

        November 6, 2013 at 5:42 am |
        • karlheins

          thank you

          November 6, 2013 at 6:11 am |
        • Sara

          I agree on all three of those, plus I don't want to be paying town council of federal government members to be using up everyone's work hours to pray – think how these and prayer meetings and the like add. Nor do I want to waste my time when I have places to go and work to do. I work on contract and have some nights free and others am very busy. If I had to sit through somebody's prayer at a meeting, it would suck up my time and flipping open my laptop to work during these prayers is not generally considered good etiquette and would hurt my case if I were there to argue for a new stop light on my street or whatever. Just figuring out what to do with myself during these prayers is a discomfort I shouldn't be asked to go through. Do I give fake consent to the prayer by sitting still and looking reflective? Do I crack open a book?

          November 6, 2013 at 6:22 am |
        • lol??

          What's an arbitrary century designation got to do with anything or embarrassment?? You embarrass easily??

          November 6, 2013 at 6:58 am |
    • truthprevails1

      Most honest people are Agnostic given that no-one can be 00% certain about anything. The question is are you a believer or non-believer (thus Theist or Atheist). Definitions are useful things to know.
      If they're going to allow a prayer, then how about a Pagan blessing or the reading of the 10 Humanist Commandments or maybe a Sun Dance and a perhaps a prayer for every other god that man has ever imagined? Given you'd spend a good hour, if not more, getting through all of that..is that how you wish to see tax dollar spent?

      November 6, 2013 at 5:24 am |
      • truthprevails1

        typo 00%=100%

        November 6, 2013 at 5:24 am |
      • saggyroy

        I still say sacrifice an animal or virgin. They should have to buy the animals from priests outside the meeting to make sure they are worthy.

        November 6, 2013 at 5:53 am |
        • .

          Cull the pigeons.

          November 6, 2013 at 6:04 am |
        • Sara

          They should probably pass around a pipe before they start. The proceeding would go more peacefully and the germs shared might cut down the population a little.

          November 6, 2013 at 6:56 am |
        • .

          Crack pipe?

          November 6, 2013 at 7:25 am |
        • Robert

          Our Toronto mayor just admitted to cocaine use. Maybe you've got something there.

          November 6, 2013 at 9:12 am |
        • Sara

          The mayor of DC did the same over 20 years ago...and got re-elected.

          November 6, 2013 at 10:23 am |
    • Also agnostic

      To be fair everyone should get a day. Pagans one day, Jewish people the next, Atheists the day after that can have silence. You wouldn't do every prayer in the same day as truth is suggesting. They could just rotate it out.

      November 6, 2013 at 5:40 am |
      • One one

        Does that mean I would get to do my voodoo skull dance ?

        November 6, 2013 at 6:06 am |
      • RFB

        No, on Atheist day it wouldn't be silence, they'd just get straight to doing the business of the people they represent.

        November 6, 2013 at 9:58 am |
      • CommonSense

        Your attempt to offer a solution that satisfies everyone is admirable, but unrealistic. By taking that approach, the council will, by default, put itself in the position of deciding what is a religion and what is not (or, conversely, opening up the meeting with a statement by anyone who wants to say anything under the guise of it being "religion"). For example, do you think the council would want the Westboro Baptist church opening up their council meeting? I doubt it.

        The only reasonable, common sense, approach is to eliminate the prayer and move forward with the business at hand.

        November 6, 2013 at 10:04 am |
      • mk

        OR, no one should get a day.

        November 6, 2013 at 10:08 am |
    • One one

      How does it " help" ?

      November 6, 2013 at 6:04 am |
    • lol??

      You left out yer fadder in washington, timster.

      November 6, 2013 at 6:54 am |
    • Sara

      Some gods get pis sed off when you pray to another god.

      November 6, 2013 at 8:24 am |
      • lol??

        The A&A's do. You must pray to the socie fadder in washing ton where they launder da moolah and make Vegas style skimming within the realm of pie in the sky possibilities!!

        November 6, 2013 at 8:48 am |
    • J Gaston

      They can pray on their own time in the their own home. Time in office is devoted to serving the people, not asking for favors from an imaginary friend in the sky.

      November 6, 2013 at 9:17 am |
  12. Bootyfunk

    chrisitans promoting their religion in a gov't meeting in a gov't building during work hours.
    so they waste the first 10 minutes of every meeting on hocus pocus - our tax dollars at work.

    pray at home, pray at a church, pray in a park.
    pray before work, pray after work, pray outside at lunchtime
    you don't get to pray during gov't meetings while you're supposed to be working.

    christians, this is not an attack on you. right now, your religion is favored above all others and is pushed on others. if you believe in american values, you would want pray out of the gov't too, a separation of church and state, as intended. taking away christianity's special status will make it equal to all others beliefs and non-belief. equality is a good thing.

    November 6, 2013 at 2:15 am |
    • Seth

      Pray without ceasing. I'd love to play along, but I'll follow the holy spirit's instruction each day.

      My heroes were crunched and feasted upon by wild animals to honor Jesus christ

      November 6, 2013 at 2:55 am |
      • Seth

        Promoting your religion? Not interested

        November 6, 2013 at 2:56 am |
      • Get Real

        Seth
        "Pray without ceasing."

        If your mind is not on the business at hand, you should not be there. You should stay home (or go to church).

        November 6, 2013 at 3:10 am |
        • Get Real

          p.s. Sorry about your heroes - I'm sure that was awful. Some heroes can also be selected from those whom the Church executed as heretics and for other rule-breaking, you know.

          November 6, 2013 at 3:15 am |
        • Get Real

          p.p.s. Executions (and imprisonments and torture) which were, btw, purportedly guided by and sanctioned by your "holy spirit".

          November 6, 2013 at 3:32 am |
      • sam stone

        how does people getting eaten by wild animals honor jesus christ?

        November 6, 2013 at 5:22 am |
        • .

          Christians as cat food a grand old tradition.

          November 6, 2013 at 6:07 am |
        • One one

          Who knows ? They do weird stuff like pretend to eat his flesh and drink his blood !

          November 6, 2013 at 6:10 am |
  13. lol??

    When the PUblic Servants are prayin' you know things must be REALLY bad. I'm surprised the whole country ain't flat on their faces and throwin' dust in the air.

    November 5, 2013 at 11:43 pm |
    • midwest rail

      Smart money says you're still surprised by a jack-in-the-box.

      November 5, 2013 at 11:44 pm |
      • Nance

        Ok, this made me laugh. Thanks.

        November 6, 2013 at 1:49 am |
      • Cleetus Allreetus Alrightus

        Now THAT was funny!!!

        November 6, 2013 at 8:45 am |
  14. Well Duh

    @Topher
    "OK, I'll be a bit more specific. It's historically reliable. No other book in antiquity has been vetted more than the Bible. It's written by eyewitnesses during the life of other eyewitnesses, thus providing an automatic baloney detector. It also demonstrates the fulfillment of hundreds of prophecies. It answers all the important questions. It's only "religion" that has an answer for the sin problem."

    Please list all eyewitness events and how you evaluated each to be true.
    Please list all prophecies (all hundreds of them) and how you evaluated each to be true.
    Please list all important questions, and answers, and how you evaluated each to be true.

    "Christianity is the only "religion" in which I don't have to DO anything and true to earn my way to heaven."

    Sounds lazy.

    November 5, 2013 at 9:18 pm |
    • Well Duh

      Doh, was suppose to be a reply. My first reply was rejected for some stupid reason.

      November 5, 2013 at 9:19 pm |
    • Youtube - Neil DeGrasse Tyson rebukes Richard Dawkins

      You can't seriously believe that the Old Testament is true?

      November 5, 2013 at 9:32 pm |
      • Topher

        If you're talking to me, yes, I believe the OT is true.

        November 5, 2013 at 9:38 pm |
        • Youtube - Neil DeGrasse Tyson rebukes Richard Dawkins

          I can understand how you could believe the New Testament, but the Old Testament, with all of it's immoralities, is nothing more than a bunch of religious stories, which should be appropriately be discarded.

          November 5, 2013 at 9:44 pm |
        • Topher

          If I believe the NT is true, then I must also believe the OT is true. Jesus taught it as so.

          November 5, 2013 at 9:46 pm |
        • HotAirAce

          If the OT is relegated to the trash heap, the NT loses its foundation – the house of cards (unfounded assertions, if not outright lies) that religion is, collapses. Even someone as dumb as Topher understands this.

          November 5, 2013 at 9:48 pm |
        • Tom, Tom, the Other One

          I hope you value truth more highly than to believe something because someone is said to have said that it's true, Topher.

          November 5, 2013 at 9:48 pm |
        • Youtube - Neil DeGrasse Tyson rebukes Richard Dawkins

          I would not doubt that anyone of that time taught the Old Testament. It's still full of immoralities committed by God, and if anything takes credibility away from the New Testament. Both of which, were written down by flawed men. You need to think about that.

          November 5, 2013 at 9:49 pm |
        • Youtube - Neil DeGrasse Tyson rebukes Richard Dawkins

          @HotAirAce – Go view this video – Youtube – Neil DeGrasse Tyson rebukes Richard Dawkins.

          November 5, 2013 at 9:50 pm |
        • Topher

          Tom, Tom, the Other One

          "I hope you value truth more highly than to believe something because someone is said to have said that it's true, Topher."

          Of course. But if God said it I believe it over anything man says.

          November 5, 2013 at 9:54 pm |
        • HotAirAce

          Seen it before. If your intent is to rebuke me for my presentation style, let me summarize Dawkins' response to Tyson: Fu</b)ck Off! If I misunderstood you, I apologize, :^))

          November 5, 2013 at 10:01 pm |
        • Youtube - Neil DeGrasse Tyson rebukes Richard Dawkins

          @HotAirAce, My intent is for you to think before you speak, because you make atheist look bad. Enough said.

          November 5, 2013 at 10:02 pm |
        • HotAirAce

          Tell us Topher, oh wise one, how do you *know* your unproven imaginary friends actually said anything? Were you there to observe and hear first hand? Don't you discount non-observable evidence? Oh, I forgot, believers have made up a form of science – historical science – that you pull out to support your claptrap. Too bad some of your believer buddies think that is a crock.

          November 5, 2013 at 10:07 pm |
        • HotAirAce

          Then I redouble my fuck off with enthusiasm. You pick your words and means, I'll pick mine, I am not the least bit concerned about representing any other atheists – I am not the member of, nor do I represent, any atheist organization.

          November 5, 2013 at 10:10 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          Can dr. turi do things like predict the future?

          November 5, 2013 at 10:42 pm |
        • LissaK

          The OT and NT ... neither are true due to the matter of relentless interpretations and exclusions. The Bible cannot be believed. If it is believed, and therefore refered to as a "must" then we should all put up are first born sons for execution and just wait for a millisecond statement....'don't do that...i was just kidding!"

          November 5, 2013 at 11:45 pm |
        • sam stone

          "Of course. But if God said it I believe it over anything man says."

          You take what man says and attribute it to god

          amusing stuff, gopher

          November 6, 2013 at 5:27 am |
    • Well Duh

      Still awaiting your evaluations Topher.

      November 5, 2013 at 9:59 pm |
      • Topher

        Unreasonable requests and you know it. Pare it way down and we can talk.

        November 5, 2013 at 10:01 pm |
        • Well Duh

          Ok.

          How about 3 examples of each. Three eyewitness events, three prophesies, and three important questions.

          Still too much?

          November 5, 2013 at 10:14 pm |
        • Just the Facts Ma'am...

          One is too many for Topher. If he could prove anything about the bible or prophecy or his religion it would be called fact instead of faith. Topher relies on faith to get him through the logic gaps to reach his predetermined conclusion of his imagined God.

          November 6, 2013 at 7:55 am |
    • Sara

      "Christianity is the only "religion" in which I don't have to DO anything and true to earn my way to heaven."

      Where is the original of this? I think (hope) I need to see it in context. Thanks.

      November 5, 2013 at 10:18 pm |
      • Topher

        ALL other religions are works-based. You have to be good, follow some rules, give money, help old ladies across the street to get into Heaven. In Christianity, the "work" has already been done by Christ on the cross.

        November 5, 2013 at 10:23 pm |
        • Observer

          Yep. All other religions reward personal actions and taking responsibility. Christianity allows you to let someone else take the blame for what you have done and avoid the punishment you deserve. Quite an endorsement for undeserving slackers.

          November 5, 2013 at 10:27 pm |
        • Sara

          Wow.I know that many Christians more or less believe this, but I've never heard it stated with such self-awareness of the laziness and selfishness involved. Impressive in a scary kind of way.

          November 5, 2013 at 10:30 pm |
        • Well Duh

          "ALL other religions are works-based. You have to be good, follow some rules, give money, help old ladies across the street to get into Heaven. In Christianity, the "work" has already been done by Christ on the cross."

          So you don't have to be good or follow any rules?

          November 5, 2013 at 10:32 pm |
        • Tom, Tom, the Other One

          Well, one has to believe. Repentance is in there too. Sounds like work.

          November 5, 2013 at 10:36 pm |
        • Topher

          Well Duh

          "So you don't have to be good or follow any rules?"

          Last post of the night for me, so you all have a good one. Anyway, Christianity says you aren't good and you don't do good. So no, you can't. Just like you can't follow the 10 Commandments because you've likely already broken them. Which of course displays how wonderful God is to have done it all for us!

          November 5, 2013 at 10:37 pm |
        • Well Duh

          "Anyway, Christianity says you aren't good and you don't do good. So no, you can't. Just like you can't follow the 10 Commandments because you've likely already broken them. Which of course displays how wonderful God is to have done it all for us!"

          Well there you go, no morals needed to get into heaven. Do what you want people, rap e, murder, whatever, just believe and heaven is yours.

          November 5, 2013 at 10:44 pm |
        • lol??

          What do you do for an inheritance?? Give Dad and Mummie a blood test??

          November 5, 2013 at 11:46 pm |
        • Doris

          I agree with Sara, but I'm not impressed one bit. I guess they must have a special place in Topher's heaven for the lazily self-righteous folk who also happen to be ethically challenged.

          November 5, 2013 at 11:59 pm |
        • sam stone

          gopher's christianity = the lazy man's religion

          gopher, you are a coward for allowing someone else to take your punishment

          November 6, 2013 at 5:57 am |
        • Sara

          To be fair the are other lazy religions. Falun Gong (popular in the 1990s)is a great example. If you read Falun DaFa charitable work is essentially considered harmful and even the meditation practice involved Li Hongzhi handing you the little spinning belly wheel. Many of the eastern contemplative religions are more about seeing and understanding than actually doing any good.Many, it should be noted, are not, but a good number are. A lot of modern Daoism is the same. Following the "way" often just means not making waves or fighting for any change.

          November 6, 2013 at 6:48 am |
    • LissaK

      Seriously, seperation of church and state! When are people going to realize that it means what it states!!!! NO PRAYER! This should also apply to the CONGRESS. Where there is prayer there is religion, and religion is controversial and damaging since most people think of religion as Christian, Jewish or Muslim. Those are not the only religions. Do not marginalize those of other monothiestic or polytheistic religtions or those that have NO religion. Just stop all the prayers and religious connections and we will be fine.

      November 5, 2013 at 11:40 pm |
  15. armageddon

    can't dm do better? same old same old

    who am i?

    well, i think the bible is describing the future for unbelieves using hyperbole. i am doubtful god created a literal hell.

    November 5, 2013 at 9:10 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      If a bible verse furthers the cause, it is to be taken literally. If a bible verse is detrimental to the cause, it is either: taken out of context; is allegorical; refers to another verse somewhere else; is an ancient cultural anomaly; is a translation or copyist's error; means something other than what it actually says; Is a mystery of god or not discernible by humans; or is just plain magic.

      November 5, 2013 at 9:16 pm |
      • Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra

        Kadir beneath Mo Moteh
        Shaka, when the walls fell

        November 6, 2013 at 5:56 am |
    • Maddy

      Who are you? A troll who steals names and is incredibly rude to everyone who posts, believers and non alike.

      November 5, 2013 at 9:24 pm |
      • Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra

        Uzani, his army with fists open

        November 6, 2013 at 5:57 am |
        • Cleetus Allreetus Alrightus

          I've noticed your fist appears to be closed with an up and down motion.

          November 6, 2013 at 8:51 am |
        • petaQ

          QI'yaH

          November 6, 2013 at 9:29 am |
  16. armageddon

    what were jews doing with 2,000 pigs?

    take heed

    For then there will be great tribulation, affliction, distress, and oppression such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now—no, and never will be again.

    November 5, 2013 at 8:59 pm |
    • Colin

      Actually, the story you allude to, is from early in Mark's Gospel, in which Jesus drives a legion of demons out of a possessed man and into a herd of 2,000 pigs, which then spontaneously herd themselves over a cliff and into the sea to drown.

      This helps to date the Gospel of Mark to no earlier than about 70 CE, during or after the Jewsish uprising of 67-73 CE. During the Jewish uprising, the Romans used the Tenth Legion, a legion of 2,000 soldiers, to fight in and occupy Jerusalem and their emblem was the pig.

      November 5, 2013 at 9:06 pm |
      • armageddon

        lol

        November 5, 2013 at 9:12 pm |
        • Maddy

          That's your rebuttal? "lol"? Lazy. Trite. Silly. Troll.

          November 5, 2013 at 9:38 pm |
      • Youtube - Neil DeGrasse Tyson rebukes Richard Dawkins

        Now, Colin, that's just silly.

        November 5, 2013 at 9:37 pm |
      • Well Duh

        The boar was one of the symbols, a bull, a ship, and Neptune were others. So what source did you get the number of 2,000 soldiers from?

        November 5, 2013 at 9:50 pm |
        • LissaK

          The 10th legion of Rome whose flag was that of a boar. If you have ever read anything about Roman history, you should know. It is referred to in most event of Roman history under Ceasar.

          November 5, 2013 at 11:55 pm |
        • Well Duh

          "The 10th legion of Rome whose flag was that of a boar. If you have ever read anything about Roman history, you should know. It is referred to in most event of Roman history under Ceasar."

          ONE of the symbols used by the 10th legion was the boar, so I wasn't denying that it wasn't used, just stating that it wasn't the only symbol.

          Regardless, that doesn't answer my main question as to Colin's source of where he can state that the 10th legion had 2,000 soldiers.

          November 6, 2013 at 12:52 am |
  17. observer

    How can the Kingdom be within and around a man? A different dimension, occupying the same physical space. God .. is not far from each one of us, for in him we live and move and have our being, — but we are not aware of this, because we are in a lower physical dimension. The physical dimension shares the same space as the higher spiritual dimensions. To enter the Kingdom of God within and around us, is to be dramatically translated to the spiritual dimension of consciousness and sight, in union with Christ and God, but walking on earth by the light of God. The world passes away from our sight when the Kingdom is entered.

    CLAIRIFIED KJ w/ commentary

    not bad

    November 5, 2013 at 8:40 pm |
    • Mark

      Lol

      November 6, 2013 at 12:29 pm |
  18. Salero21

    One more GIANT piece of EVIDENCE that atheism is stupidity in Full bloom in any and all seasons.

    November 5, 2013 at 8:22 pm |
    • Observer

      That's maybe the WORST job of trolling ever.

      November 5, 2013 at 8:49 pm |
    • sam stone

      salero: suck a 12 gauge

      November 5, 2013 at 8:55 pm |
      • Youtube - Neil DeGrasse Tyson rebukes Richard Dawkins

        Sam Stone, As an atheist I have to say, can you not see that your brand of morality is deeply flawed. Indeed, maybe you do need some religion.

        November 5, 2013 at 9:35 pm |
        • HotAirAce

          While Sam has an interesting way of making his point (if being at the right hand of your unfounded god is what you live for, why bother hanging around here?) and I really don't like the notion of using firearms on humans, not to mention leaving a mess for others to clean up, I don't think religion is the answer. But then, I don't think religion is the answer for anything, other than perhaps as the punch line of a joke.

          November 5, 2013 at 9:54 pm |
        • Youtube - Neil DeGrasse Tyson rebukes Richard Dawkins

          No, there's nothing interesting about making a point that way, and it is damaging to those of us who get bound with people such as that because of those comments.l

          November 5, 2013 at 9:58 pm |
        • drturi

          Please Google "Halloween Suicide Girls Born Witches Dr. Turi" and have a blast! Pass it on if you like it! Check also – Google "Anarchy Coming To America? dr.turi"

          November 5, 2013 at 10:05 pm |
        • sam stone

          if a person comes on to have an honest discussion, i deal with them honesty

          if a person comes on to be a troll, i understand that trolling is their method of communication

          i speak their language

          trolling begets trolling

          November 6, 2013 at 5:33 am |
        • sam stone

          also, you know nothing about my morality

          November 6, 2013 at 5:40 am |
      • Observer

        sam stone,

        Is this the image you want to project as a comparison to believers? Do you really think that will win any points?

        Grow up.

        November 5, 2013 at 9:45 pm |
        • sam stone

          this is not about believers, this is about trolls

          November 6, 2013 at 5:34 am |
        • sam stone

          what part of salero's statement told you that he/she/it was interested in a meaningful discussion/

          November 6, 2013 at 5:38 am |
        • sam stone

          do you read the posts from faith/hhari/bethany, etc, etc etc and believe they are interested in back and forth discussion?

          for that matter, do you see that with gopher, or larry of arabia?

          the former is just interested in being a troll

          the latter are interested in preaching

          November 6, 2013 at 5:44 am |
  19. observer

    How can the Kingdom be within and around a man? A different dimension, occupying the same physical space. God .. is not far from each one of us, for in him we live and move and have our being, — but we are not aware of this, because we are in a lower physical dimension. The physical dimension shares the same space as the higher spiritual dimensions. To enter the Kingdom of God within and around us, is to be dramatically translated to the spiritual dimension of consciousness and sight, in union with Christ and God, but walking on earth by the light of God. The world passes away from our sight when the Kingdom is entered.

    CLAIRIFIED KJ w/ commentary

    November 5, 2013 at 8:06 pm |
    • james

      since you quote King Jimmie's version, have you read the preface to the DNKJV? check it out and get back please. let me know what you think.

      November 5, 2013 at 8:27 pm |
      • james

        nah

        November 5, 2013 at 8:50 pm |
  20. observer

    topher, robert, u don't know christ.

    November 5, 2013 at 7:51 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      What must I do?

      November 5, 2013 at 8:04 pm |
      • The one ring

        Frodo Baggins quote? Nice.

        November 5, 2013 at 8:27 pm |
        • Robert Brown

          You would be surprised at how much literature is inspired by the good book.

          Acts 16
          27 And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.

          28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.

          29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

          30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

          November 5, 2013 at 8:34 pm |
      • sam stone

        robert: why do you feel man is "sinful"?

        because a book told you so?

        November 6, 2013 at 5:48 am |
    • Topher

      I don't?

      November 5, 2013 at 8:19 pm |

    • step away from the troll

      November 5, 2013 at 8:20 pm |
      • Robert Brown

        That is hilarious. I literally laughed out loud.

        November 5, 2013 at 8:29 pm |
    • Maddy

      Are you seriously attacking other Christians, now? What is wrong with you?

      November 5, 2013 at 8:55 pm |
      • HotAirAce

        Not even Chad would dare criticize a member of a delusional believer tribe. Very bad form.

        November 5, 2013 at 8:59 pm |
        • Maddy

          Leaving me to wonder what this person's objective is...if s/he even knows.

          November 5, 2013 at 9:05 pm |
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43
Advertisement
About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.