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November 6th, 2013
12:18 PM ET
Let us pray? Supreme Court divided on God in governmentBy Bill Mears and Daniel Burke, CNN WASHINGTON (CNN) - Should prayers to God open government meetings? That's the controversial question a divided Supreme Court debated on Wednesday. At oral arguments about whether public prayers at a New York town's board meetings are permissible, the high court took a broad look at the country's church-state history and even the Supreme Court's own traditions. Two local women sued officials in Greece, New York, objecting that monthly Town Board public sessions have opened with invocations they say have been overwhelmingly Christian. But the case's implications extend far beyond upstate New York and could have widespread consequences, according to constitutional scholars. "This is going to affect communities across the country," said Charles C. Haynes, a senior scholar at the First Amendment Center. The frequent court battles over public prayers, Ten Commandment memorials and holiday displays might strike some Americans as silly, but they touch on deep questions about national identity to reach back to the Founding Fathers, Haynes said. "It's a long struggle in our country about self-definition and what our country was founded to be. That's why we keep circling back to these emotional and highly divisive questions." At Wednesday's oral arguments, the court's conservative majority appeared to have the votes to allow the public prayers to continue in some form, but both sides expressed concerns about the level of judicial and government oversight over prayers presented by members of a particular faith. "We are a very religiously diverse country," said Justice Samuel Alito, who worried about the town officials setting up binding guidelines. "All should be treated equally. So I can't see how you can compose a prayer that is acceptable to all these" religions. But Justice Sonia Sotomayor worried about the effect on local citizens who choose not to stand and bow their heads when asked during a public prayer. "You think any of those people wouldn't feel coerced to stand?" MORE ON CNN: Atheist gets her day at the Supreme Court The high court began its public session Wednesday as it has for decades, with the marshal invoking a traditional statement that ends, "God save the United States and this honorable court." The town outside Rochester began allowing prayers to start its meetings in 1999, after years of having a moment of silence. Co-plaintiffs Linda Stephens and Susan Galloway challenged the revised policy, saying officials repeatedly ignored their requests to modify or eliminate the practice, or at least make it more inclusive. "It's very divisive when you bring government into religion," Stephens said. "I don't believe in God, and Susan is Jewish, so to hear these ministers talk about Jesus and even have some of them who personally question our motives, it's just not appropriate." The town of about 94,000 residents counters that after hearing concerns from the two women and others, it sought diverse voices, including a Wiccan priestess, to offer invocations. Officials said they do not review the content of the remarks, nor censor any language. "The faith of the prayer-giver does not matter at all," said John Auberger, Greece's board supervisor, who began the practice shortly after taking office 1998. "We accept anyone who wants to come in and volunteer to give the prayer to open up our town meetings." A federal appeals court in New York found the board's policy to be an unconstitutional violation of the Constitution's establishment clause, which forbids any government "endorsement" of religion. Those judges said it had the effect of "affiliating the town with Christianity." Congress and state legislatures regularly open their sessions with prayers. One question before the Supreme Court is whether local government bodies are different, in that there might be more active involvement with local citizens, who may want to personally petition the town in zoning, tax, and other matters. MORE ON CNN: Town prayers need less Jesus, more Krishna Justice Elena Kagan explored the limits of permissible government action by using the Supreme Court as an example. She asked whether the court could suddenly invite a Christian minister to invoke the following prayer, inside the ornate marbled courtroom: "We acknowledge the saving sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross." "Would that be permissible?" asked Kagan. Attorney Thomas Hungar, attorney for the town of Greece, suggested courts were different, and that the national legislature had had similar prayers since the nation's founding. "Whatever line might be drawn between nonlegislative bodies and legislative bodies," Hungar said, "it would be incongruous, if Congress could have legislative prayers and the states couldn't." But the lawyer for the plaintiffs, supported by Americans United for Separation of Church and State, said unlike legislatures, Greece had no official policy on prayers. "The policy should give guidelines to chaplains that say, 'Stay away from points in which believers are known to disagree,'" said Douglas Laycock, who represented the two women objecting to the prayers. "And we think the town should do what it can to ameliorate coercion. It should tell the clergy: 'Don't ask people to physically participate.' That's the most important thing." But some justices on the high court expressed doubts about the extent to which lawmakers - and later courts - should advise various faiths about what to say, and parse what is sectarian or not. "Give me an example of a prayer that is acceptable to all of the groups that I mentioned," said Alito, whose list included Hindus, Muslims, and Buddhists. When Laycock suggested something like, "The prayers to the almighty, prayers to the creator," Alito and others were unconvinced, saying polytheists might object. "What about devil worshippers?" asked Justice Antonin Scalia, bringing laughter to the courtroom. "Well, if devil worshippers believe the devil is the almighty, they might be OK with it," responded Laycock, smiling. "Who was supposed to make these determinations? Is there supposed to be an officer of the town council that will review?" asked Chief Justice John Roberts. "Do prayers have to be reviewed for his approval in advance?" Justice Anthony Kennedy, who may prove to be the swing vote in his petition, was especially vocal. "It just seems to me that enforcing that standard involves the state very heavily in the censorship and the approval or disapproval of prayers," he said. "I'm serious about this. This involves government very heavily in religion." He also suggested small towns deserve as much right to allow a brief prayer in public sessions as federal and state bodies. "In a way it sounds quite elitist to say, 'Well, now, we can do this in Washington and Sacramento and Austin, Texas, but you people up there in Greece can't do that.'" Several members of Congress were in attendance at the argument, including Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Florida. "Every day before the Senate meets, the Senate chaplain comes out and gives a prayer, and that's important to us," Rubio told CNN just after arguments ended. "It's part of our country's tradition; it's also our constitutional right, to be able to exercise that. And I thought it was important to defend that here today." Nearly 120 members of Congress, mostly Republicans, along with 18 state attorneys general, have filed supporting legal briefs backing the city. The Obama administration is doing the same. Stephens and Galloway, the two plaintiffs, said they have faced harassment from their community and even vandalism of their property. "The pastors face the people (in the meetings), they don't face the town government, so it's like they're praying over us," Galloway told CNN after the argument. "When they all stood and I sat, and I have a hundred eyes looking at me, and questioning what's going on, they think I'm being disrespectful. It does put a lot of pressure on you and it makes you very uncomfortable. It singles you out, and that shouldn't be in my town government, and it shouldn't be anywhere." The high court has generally taken a case-by-case approach on determining just when the state intrudes unconstitutionally into religion, while generally allowing faith to be acknowledged in a limited basis in public forums. "In God We Trust" remains on currency; the Pledge of Allegiance and oaths of office mention a divine creator; and menorah and crèche displays are permitted in local parks. But the justices acknowledge the tricky line they must walk - politically, socially and legally - when deciding church-state cases. "It's hard because the (Supreme) Court lays down these rules, and everybody thinks that the court is being hostile to religion, and people get unhappy and angry and agitated," said Kagan near the end of Wednesday's oral arguments. "Part of what we are trying to do here is to maintain a multireligious society in a peaceful and harmonious way. And every time the court gets involved in things like this, it seems to make the problem worse rather than better." The case is Town of Greece, N.Y. v. Galloway (12-696). A ruling is expected by early summer. |
  About this blog
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Will god be happy seeing World's Most Positive Countries 2013? For more visit http://www.dailypositive.org/Most_Positive_Countries
A sign needs to be put on every government building that says: This is not a church.
The more we take God out of things, the more things will continue to spiral out of control in this world... People bend over backwards for other Faiths but when it comes to Christian's, it's okay to slander what we believe in...
If you take a look at recent history, as soon as the Supreme Court took Prayer out of schools, that's when kids got out of control and our country has been spiraling downward since that decision... If we continue to allow the government to violate our rights, soon we be living in a communist state... So if you agree with something make your voice heard, if you disagree with something then Protest, otherwise we will have nothing left to save...
This is a nation of many faiths, even no faith at all. Freedom of and from religion is one of the cornerstones of this nation, one of our most important Constitutional rights.
You want to steal my rights, and the rights of other non-christians in this country. It is disgusting and un-American. You are free to worship as you wish. You are not free to force your chosen manner of worship on anyone else. If you wish to live in a theocracy, feel free to move to Iran.
U want to steal my rights
perfectly said, and i am a christian, who goes to church every sunday. We are not above anyone else, as much as the conservative right might disagree. while they are hollering about their rights being trampled, they dont even realize that what they are asking to do would be trampling on someone elses.
why cant you pray before you come? why do I need to sit through your prayer?
"The more we take God out of things, the more things will continue to spiral out of control in this world... People bend over backwards..."
So God is even in those instruments they use when they give you a colonoscopy?? I'm going to ask my doctor and make he has had those tools blessed next time.
That's precisely the reason that I carry several vials of holy water on my person at all times. Well, to be honest, I carry them for blessing endoscopes and the inevitable advent of the vampire apocalypse.
there is no apostrophe in Christians
what makes you think that things are spinning out of control?
Marry me!
Emily, teen pregnancy is down, murder is down, graduation rates are up and even IQ scores are up. Exactly what is it you think is spinning out of control???
Emily, please explain why the Supreme Court justices, all believers, ruled against unrestricted prayer in public schools.
Emily, i think the problem started when women were introduced, full time, to the workforce. No parent at home after school, kids doing what they wanted, no adult supervision. then fast foward this scenario 30 years and introduce the internet. wallah!!! instant chaos. Dont blame it on God being taken out of school, thats not being smart. just misguided with a tad bit of brainwashing.
Prayers are futile. Some examples;
Number of god's creations who died horrible deaths from the following diseases:
1. 300,000,000 approx.
Smallpox
2. 200,000,000 ?
Measles
3. 100,000,000 approx.
Black Death
4. 80,000,000–250,000,000
Malaria
5. 50,000,000–100,000,000
Spanish Flu
6. 40,000,000–100,000,000
Plague of Justinian
7. 40,000,000–100,000,000
Tuberculosis
8. 30,000,000[13]
AIDS pandemic
9. 12,000,000 ?
Third Pandemic of Bubonic Plague
10. 5,000,000
Antonine Plague
11. 4,000,000
Asian Flu
12. 250,000 or more annually Seasonal influenza
"But this belief in a personal god creates division...for it causes each to embrace one's own "god" as the ultimate authority...it supports and feeds the belief for one to serve and magnify their personal god and that leads to self rightousness."
***fixed***
So, agreed, the rich young man man turned away, dejected. He had great riches. But wait, all one had to do is ask Christ in to one's heart. Whass up?
You sound stupid.
That is quite the reason to live, u no? To try to discredit a man they no nothing about because they hate jews
Are you dumb? You sound like it.
no, that is just the troll of many names
So where did you came from Ted? You need to read more to get inform, God is and will be God; even if you don't believe it, but there is one thing you need to know, every one of us is going to be accountable for what we have done on this planet, and the wrath of God is comming to an end.
It's good to know god's wrath is coming to an end. He's a dovchebag with it, currently.
You are talking to a name stealing troll.
Maddy, my love, call the authorities. Stop complaining all the time and have the bum arrested. Get a life. This dude has complete control over u
I am not your love. You however are a name stealing troll and I hope that you get punished accordingly.
Life in prison sounds good. How much do u think each name he stole is worth? I'm guessing 26,009,000. U seriously need to call the cops. Have u reported Sam stone?
What is comming?
Tomorrow
Moron.
Why do religious people think that if they ask the question "Well where did (fill in the blank) come from?" equals "My god is real".
P.S. If your god has wrath he is an asshat.
fvck you, your god and your proxy threats, gabby
More governing, far less religion please
The "absolute" belief in freedom of religion, freedom of self-rights, does not discriminate against nor does it show preference for any religion, 'god', or personal way of life...for the belief of freedom is a 'religion' in itself.....and this is the way that a democratic (self-ruling) government lives by and works by.
But this belief in self freedom creates division...for it causes each to embrace one's own 'rights'...it supports and feeds the belief for one to serve and magnify oneself (XES).
Christ, Son of the One and Only Creator Majesty Ruler, stated that we are to worship the One Lord God and Him Alone to serve....to serve in obedience His Will and not man desire for his free will...which is in reality the will of disobedience.
But man embraces the way of self will, self rights.....which leads to division, hatred, and death.
Note that it is Only Jesus Christ that will rule according to and in obedience to the Will of the One father and not according to man's love for "freedom" of self will.
"which leads to division, hatred, and death."
The legacy of religion right there.
Exactly!
As usual that only applies to you. You version of a god does ntooapply to other people.
more blah, blah, blah from john
"But this belief in a personal god creates division...for it causes each to embrace one's own "god" as the ultimate authority...it supports and feeds the belief for one to serve and magnify their personal god and that leads to self rightousness.".
***fixed***
Y run?
In the name of Dreighton, the ancient Providence, which is for all eternity, both male and female, all powerful, changeless, eternal. In the names of our Lady of the Moon and our God of death and resurrection. In the names of the Mighty ones, rulers of the elements. Blessed be this place, this time and those who are with us.
"Should prayers to God open government meetings?"
To be fair you would need clergy from each denomination that has an adherent present. It would blow huge blocks of time and our government would virtually grind to a halt –
...oh wait....well pray on then. The general public hasn't had a dog in this fight for some time now....we ll never notice...and even fewer care at this point.
They r proud of their efforts. CNN and WordPress r directly responsible. They they disregard tos to discriminate against a religion they hate. But that is the opening argument.
"What are you even talking about?" got to love it
I'm guessing you
That said
having said that
Ok...I guess what I'm not understanding is
is a myth as is the
lol
"Hello Really-O? My guess is that Chad's increasingly elaborate scaffolding for all his beliefs collapsed around him. He's feeling lost and betrayed. Wish we could help the poor fellow."
What are you even talking about? Ok...I guess what I'm not understanding is
agreed
My guess is that
u guess wrong
I guess not.
Lawsuit coming together, faith?
And what are you doing right now? You are harassing people online. Well done.
U mean like fvck u? Like snake do?
If only Chad still haunted this blog so we could watch his head explode –
http://www.voanews.com/content/us-senate-passes-key-gay-rights-bill/1785982.html
Doogie too.
Hello Really-O? My guess is that Chad's increasingly elaborate scaffolding for all his beliefs collapsed around him. He's feeling lost and betrayed. Wish we could help the poor fellow.
I don't understand why God is freaking people out so much in the last few years. Is it because of the Muslims? Until they started spreading out like locusts, religions were not an issue.
Now it has become ok to murder Christians because of their faith!? We used to be horrified when Americans were beheaded by Arab nations, now it's ok......why? Cause Christians deserve it!!!!!!!?????
Has the whole world gone this corrupt!!!???
Can you look at your children in the eyes and see what their future holds??? Nothing! Especially, if your heart is as empty as you are expressing.....I'm sorry for your loss!!!!
What are you even talking about?
Post by 'Kathy' presents instances of the Non Causa Pro Causa fallacy, the Straw Man fallacy, and other common fallacies.
http://fallacyfiles.org/glossary.html
Maybe but Joey really nailed it accurately before you.
it is due to blogs like this one. athies here support sam stone who repeatedly promises acts of violence against christians, thus the largest lawsuit in u.s. history
You aren't even fast.
Liar. Please, you Christian thief.
and it is coming every bit as fast as the return of jeebus
what do the men call you?
My customers call me "faith".
Kathy
"Until they started spreading out like locusts, religions were not an issue."
Please get a better education. You seem completely lost about this topic.
lol
You are going down. Trust me.
"It must be tough watching this religious leader not following God's discrimination against the handicapped." observer
that's y.
First amendment – freedom of speech...prayer is speech. The government does not have the right to take away someone's ability to pray, even if it is in a public place. Those type of situations should be handled by the people in the room, not by the government....
Matt,
So you support atheists being able to read poems about "God is dead" during the meetings, right?
The free speech argument is a red herring. The issue at hand is if prayer can be included in official government proceedings. Per the Establishment Clause, also in the First Amendment that you cited, it cannot be. You are still free to pray in public or private. Government is not free to mandate prayer as a function of government proceedings.
no more swearing in witnesses.
as a person called to testify b4 congress, and b4 my opening statement, i pray out loud, according to heathen, i should be arrested.
Quit stealing names, faith.
Maddy, u have a thing for Maddy! Please tell Maddy to stop thieving! Maddy, stop thieving! Dag man, sup?
It is the purpose behind this place. To trash Christianity in every conceivable fashion, almost always thru lies. It is hate speech. They are accountable.
Christianity belongs in the trash, so that seems to be on track. Great stuff.
we shall c, bucko
Great comment, Bob haha. Although I do think religion belongs in the trash, this is about keeping religion out of our government and I don't see why anyone opposes that. Practice your religion at home if (for some reason) you so desire. Keep it away from my laws.
Great comment, Bob haha. Although I do think religion belongs in the trash, this is about keeping religion out of our government and I don't see why anyone opposes that. Practice your religion at home if (for some reason) you so desire. Keep it away from my laws.
although i am at home in my government, i do think i agree, point being, so, u clearly need all the mental help ur friends can't afford
and you remain a lying gash
I new it. U do love me! It is true! O snookie! Kiss me!
The US Supreme Court's opening "prayer" -
//quote://
Marshal of the Court chants, "The Honorable Chief Justice and the Associate Justices of the Supreme Court of the United States. Oyez! Oyez! Oyez! All persons having business before the Honorable Supreme Court of the United States are admonished to draw near and give their attention, for the Court is now sitting. God save the United States and this Honorable Court!"
//end quote//
And as usual god, who doesn't exist, doesn't do a darn thing and the judges have to do all the work.
genius.
u might expect that u moron
Dumb twat.
The religious freaks will never let up, they can't
Every time during my morning commute when the sun shines into my rearview mirror, I mutter to myself, "93 MILLION miles away and STILL a pain in the *$$." Every time this silly argument over prayers in government functions – where the government is supposed to be equally representing and working for ALL citizens, not only the ones of a certain religion – I mutter somewhat more loudly, "two THOUSAND years in the past and STILL a pain in the *$$."
Every time during my morning commute when the sun shines into my rearview mirror _ AND BLINDS ME_ [daggone lack of a proof-reading gene], I mutter to myself, "93 MILLION miles away and STILL a pain in the *$$." Every time this silly argument over prayers in government functions – where the government is supposed to be equally representing and working for ALL citizens, not only the ones of a certain religion – I mutter somewhat more loudly, "two THOUSAND years in the past and STILL a pain in the *$$."