Let us pray? Supreme Court divided on God in government
November 6th, 2013
12:18 PM ET

Let us pray? Supreme Court divided on God in government

By Bill Mears and Daniel Burke, CNN

WASHINGTON (CNN) - Should prayers to God open government meetings?

That's the controversial question a divided Supreme Court debated on Wednesday.

At oral arguments about whether public prayers at a New York town's board meetings are permissible, the high court took a broad look at the country's church-state history and even the Supreme Court's own traditions.

Two local women sued officials in Greece, New York, objecting that monthly Town Board public sessions have opened with invocations they say have been overwhelmingly Christian.

But the case's implications extend far beyond upstate New York and could have widespread consequences, according to constitutional scholars.

"This is going to affect communities across the country," said Charles C. Haynes, a senior scholar at the First Amendment Center.

The frequent court battles over public prayers, Ten Commandment memorials and holiday displays might strike some Americans as silly, but they touch on deep questions about national identity to reach back to the Founding Fathers, Haynes said.

"It's a long struggle in our country about self-definition and what our country was founded to be. That's why we keep circling back to these emotional and highly divisive questions."

At Wednesday's oral arguments, the court's conservative majority appeared to have the votes to allow the public prayers to continue in some form, but both sides expressed concerns about the level of judicial and government oversight over prayers presented by members of a particular faith.

"We are a very religiously diverse country," said Justice Samuel Alito, who worried about the town officials setting up binding guidelines. "All should be treated equally. So I can't see how you can compose a prayer that is acceptable to all these" religions.

But Justice Sonia Sotomayor worried about the effect on local citizens who choose not to stand and bow their heads when asked during a public prayer. "You think any of those people wouldn't feel coerced to stand?"

MORE ON CNN: Atheist gets her day at the Supreme Court

The high court began its public session Wednesday as it has for decades, with the marshal invoking a traditional statement that ends, "God save the United States and this honorable court."

The town outside Rochester began allowing prayers to start its meetings in 1999, after years of having a moment of silence.

Co-plaintiffs Linda Stephens and Susan Galloway challenged the revised policy, saying officials repeatedly ignored their requests to modify or eliminate the practice, or at least make it more inclusive.

"It's very divisive when you bring government into religion," Stephens said.

"I don't believe in God, and Susan is Jewish, so to hear these ministers talk about Jesus and even have some of them who personally question our motives, it's just not appropriate."

The town of about 94,000 residents counters that after hearing concerns from the two women and others, it sought diverse voices, including a Wiccan priestess, to offer invocations.

Officials said they do not review the content of the remarks, nor censor any language.

"The faith of the prayer-giver does not matter at all," said John Auberger, Greece's board supervisor, who began the practice shortly after taking office 1998. "We accept anyone who wants to come in and volunteer to give the prayer to open up our town meetings."

A federal appeals court in New York found the board's policy to be an unconstitutional violation of the Constitution's establishment clause, which forbids any government "endorsement" of religion. Those judges said it had the effect of "affiliating the town with Christianity."

Congress and state legislatures regularly open their sessions with prayers.

One question before the Supreme Court is whether local government bodies are different, in that there might be more active involvement with local citizens, who may want to personally petition the town in zoning, tax, and other matters.

MORE ON CNN: Town prayers need less Jesus, more Krishna

Justice Elena Kagan explored the limits of permissible government action by using the Supreme Court as an example.

She asked whether the court could suddenly invite a Christian minister to invoke the following prayer, inside the ornate marbled courtroom: "We acknowledge the saving sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross." "Would that be permissible?" asked Kagan.

Attorney Thomas Hungar, attorney for the town of Greece, suggested courts were different, and that the national legislature had had similar prayers since the nation's founding.

"Whatever line might be drawn between nonlegislative bodies and legislative bodies," Hungar said, "it would be incongruous, if Congress could have legislative prayers and the states couldn't."

But the lawyer for the plaintiffs, supported by Americans United for Separation of Church and State, said unlike legislatures, Greece had no official policy on prayers.

"The policy should give guidelines to chaplains that say, 'Stay away from points in which believers are known to disagree,'" said Douglas Laycock, who represented the two women objecting to the prayers. "And we think the town should do what it can to ameliorate coercion. It should tell the clergy: 'Don't ask people to physically participate.' That's the most important thing."

But some justices on the high court expressed doubts about the extent to which lawmakers - and later courts - should advise various faiths about what to say, and parse what is sectarian or not.

"Give me an example of a prayer that is acceptable to all of the groups that I mentioned," said Alito, whose list included Hindus, Muslims, and Buddhists.

When Laycock suggested something like, "The prayers to the almighty, prayers to the creator," Alito and others were unconvinced, saying polytheists might object.

"What about devil worshippers?" asked Justice Antonin Scalia, bringing laughter to the courtroom.

"Well, if devil worshippers believe the devil is the almighty, they might be OK with it," responded Laycock, smiling.

"Who was supposed to make these determinations? Is there supposed to be an officer of the town council that will review?" asked Chief Justice John Roberts. "Do prayers have to be reviewed for his approval in advance?"

Justice Anthony Kennedy, who may prove to be the swing vote in his petition, was especially vocal.

"It just seems to me that enforcing that standard involves the state very heavily in the censorship and the approval or disapproval of prayers," he said. "I'm serious about this. This involves government very heavily in religion."

He also suggested small towns deserve as much right to allow a brief prayer in public sessions as federal and state bodies.

"In a way it sounds quite elitist to say, 'Well, now, we can do this in Washington and Sacramento and Austin, Texas, but you people up there in Greece can't do that.'"

Several members of Congress were in attendance at the argument, including Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Florida.

"Every day before the Senate meets, the Senate chaplain comes out and gives a prayer, and that's important to us," Rubio told CNN just after arguments ended.

"It's part of our country's tradition; it's also our constitutional right, to be able to exercise that. And I thought it was important to defend that here today."

Nearly 120 members of Congress, mostly Republicans, along with 18 state attorneys general, have filed supporting legal briefs backing the city. The Obama administration is doing the same.

Stephens and Galloway, the two plaintiffs, said they have faced harassment from their community and even vandalism of their property.

"The pastors face the people (in the meetings), they don't face the town government, so it's like they're praying over us," Galloway told CNN after the argument.

"When they all stood and I sat, and I have a hundred eyes looking at me, and questioning what's going on, they think I'm being disrespectful. It does put a lot of pressure on you and it makes you very uncomfortable. It singles you out, and that shouldn't be in my town government, and it shouldn't be anywhere."

The high court has generally taken a case-by-case approach on determining just when the state intrudes unconstitutionally into religion, while generally allowing faith to be acknowledged in a limited basis in public forums.

"In God We Trust" remains on currency; the Pledge of Allegiance and oaths of office mention a divine creator; and menorah and crèche displays are permitted in local parks.

But the justices acknowledge the tricky line they must walk - politically, socially and legally - when deciding church-state cases.

"It's hard because the (Supreme) Court lays down these rules, and everybody thinks that the court is being hostile to religion, and people get unhappy and angry and agitated," said Kagan near the end of Wednesday's oral arguments.

"Part of what we are trying to do here is to maintain a multireligious society in a peaceful and harmonious way. And every time the court gets involved in things like this, it seems to make the problem worse rather than better."

The case is Town of Greece, N.Y. v. Galloway (12-696). A ruling is expected by early summer.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Atheism • Belief • Church and state • Courts • Culture wars • Discrimination • Interfaith issues • Prayer • Religious liberty • Traditions

soundoff (1,319 Responses)
  1. Atheism is not healthy for children and other living things

    Prayer changes things

    November 11, 2013 at 11:04 am |
    • joe

      BS Religion is bad for our country. hello, Look at Iran, they are religious and look at their country. Would you like to look like that? thats what religion does to countries, set them back 1000's of years.

      January 15, 2014 at 11:05 am |
  2. Patriot

    One nation under God

    November 11, 2013 at 11:04 am |
    • brainwashed christians

      Which god?

      November 11, 2013 at 11:09 am |
      • Patriot

        There is only one God. The word god refers to an idol which you appear confused by.

        November 11, 2013 at 11:11 am |
    • joe

      there is no God, sorry

      January 15, 2014 at 11:05 am |
  3. Science Works


    And believe it or not this comes out of Texas, nothing but the truth no gods/devil required.

    “This is bigger than finding any dinosaur,” Chatterjee said. “This is what we’ve all searched for – the Holy Grail of science.”

    Thanks to regular and heavy comet and meteorite bombardment of Earth’s surface during its formative years 4 billion years ago

    Paper No. 300-5: Impact, RNA-Protein World and the Endoprebiotic Origin of Life https://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2013AM/webprogram/Paper222699.html


    November 11, 2013 at 5:23 am |
    • lol??

      If you don't buy evolution you can't get a job. It's some kinda mark of da Beast. It's a LAW, err theory.

      November 11, 2013 at 5:39 am |
      • Science Works

        I say this lol??, I have never asked that of anyone I have hired and you are way out there.

        November 11, 2013 at 6:22 am |
        • Sara

          yeah, I've done 40 or 50 interviews and never asked anyone about their beliefs on evolution. Unless they candidate is going to work in a related scientific or education field it's pretty pointless, not to mention mostly illegal.

          November 11, 2013 at 6:26 am |
        • Science Works


          The background check which most employers use now (20 years ago not so much) makes it easier on the bottom line.

          November 11, 2013 at 7:01 am |
  4. Christians

    Let us pray, for all atheists

    November 11, 2013 at 5:19 am |
    • fintastic

      Lets us think for all christians

      November 11, 2013 at 11:00 am |
      • Charismatics

        Thank You and we will pray for you.

        November 12, 2013 at 7:59 am |

    Do you swear to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

    November 11, 2013 at 5:09 am |
  6. Jeff Roem

    Atheists, and I always mean our atheists, the 1 or 2 posting here, r seriously dumb and uneducated. I am amazed how little they no about everything. No wonder they can't c god's reality. They r seriously mentally challenged. They think the bombing of pearl harbor, for example, led to our involvement in the big war.

    November 11, 2013 at 4:17 am |

    • Dorothy Murdock messing with your head, faith? Here's a little Beatles song for you.

      Here comes the sun king
      Here comes the sun king
      Everybody's laughing
      Everybody's happy
      Here comes the sun king

      Quando paramucho mi amore de felice carathon
      Mundo paparazzi mi amore cicce verdi parasol
      Questo abrigado tantamucho que canite carousel

      November 11, 2013 at 4:32 am |
  7. chinedu amah

    I attended a multi religious boarding school here in Nigeria and we dealt with it simply before and after meals,which ever student whose duty it was to lead the grace made two simple statements,
    'bow down your heads and close your eyes','for the food we are about to eat'
    And the simple response was 'we thank thee o Lord'
    This served christians,muslims and traditional worshipers alike.

    November 10, 2013 at 7:31 pm |
    • lol??

      Does nothing for Christians. As you have observed God blesses the whole wurld with food, rain, etc. The thankfulness at mealtime for a Christian is to remember the crosswork of God. Daniel prayed 3 times a day, too.

      November 11, 2013 at 5:57 am |
  8. The world is at end


    November 10, 2013 at 1:55 pm |
  9. Maddy

    boycott cnn's advertisers

    let us run from christ's life

    let us discuss dorothy murdoch and her ridiculous delusions

    November 10, 2013 at 9:46 am |

    • How did you get to be so fucked up in the head? You've got to tell that story.

      November 10, 2013 at 9:48 am |
    • Jeff Roem

      Let us throw you into a secured mental facility.

      November 10, 2013 at 1:30 pm |
  10. I like Satan

    I think Satan is an interesting guy. I think he's swell. Most of all I like that I can say that in public.

    November 10, 2013 at 9:26 am |
    • Maddy

      y not discuss loonie tunes incarnate ms murdoch?

      November 10, 2013 at 9:48 am |
    • Maddy

      y not discuss loonie tunes incarnate ms murdoch? i mean after all Dorothy, horus didn't walk on water

      November 10, 2013 at 9:51 am |
    • Maddy

      y not discuss loonie tunes incarnate ms murdoch? i mean after all Dorothy, horus didn't walk on water!

      November 10, 2013 at 9:53 am |
      • Jeff Roem

        Because nobody knows or cares who DM Murdoch is??

        November 10, 2013 at 1:35 pm |
        • Maddy

          That nose is getting longer bucko

          November 10, 2013 at 1:57 pm |
        • Ruby

          I have never heard of this person either. I should care, why?

          November 10, 2013 at 6:27 pm |
        • Jeff Roem

          She is god

          November 10, 2013 at 7:09 pm |
  11. brandynnez

    How can the Supreme Court be divided on matters pertaining to God, when their own money says ' in God we trust ' ?

    November 9, 2013 at 2:36 pm |
    • Robert

      Because "In God We Trust" was added to our money purely for political reasons in 1956. As a way to show how we are a "religious" nation in the face of the "atheist" communists. That saying is nothing more that old political grand standing.

      November 9, 2013 at 6:07 pm |
  12. Marx

    Religion is the opium of the masses. Oh, shoot. It didn't work in Russia, Cuba or China. Strike that.

    November 9, 2013 at 1:17 pm |
  13. steve

    The idea of freedom from religion was that the state would not designate one religion over another as they did in England. The idea wasn't to ban religion, just the practice of the government saying this is the preferred religion. Oh, by the way...all the founders were either Christian or Deists. No Muslims, Jews or others. We were not tolerant of other religion back then. Not saying that's right...just saying that we were being tolerant of Christian religions...not all religions. People lose this context. I believe that government meetings can start with a non-denominational prayer. That covers Christians, Jews, and Muslims. The end.

    November 9, 2013 at 1:15 pm |
    • lol??

      Why the hey would Masters delegate prayin' to PUblic Servants?? The servants can't even figure out marriage and the birds and the bees.

      November 10, 2013 at 1:08 pm |
  14. Lee

    Secularism is the only way to go. If there is no prayer at government meetings, who wins? Everyone. If there is prayer at government meetings, who wins? The religion of the majority.

    Government time and money should be spent on governing, not religious pandering.

    November 8, 2013 at 2:10 pm |
    • I disagree

      I think there should be a ten minute interval a day, dedicated to a different religion each day. I do believe that atheism should get a day, that agnosticism should get a day, and so on and here's why. It may be time consuming but we are not a "secular" nation. We are a nation of diversity and it would show support for all people not just non religious people.

      I don't think anybody should be excluded.

      November 8, 2013 at 8:27 pm |
      • Reflection

        We are a secular nation with diverse religions. Look up the definition of the US.

        November 8, 2013 at 11:24 pm |
      • fintastic

        FYI....... atheism is not a religion.

        November 11, 2013 at 11:03 am |
  15. Kris

    Prayer should start all government events. Just like the way our fantastic country was founded. In God We Trust.

    November 8, 2013 at 2:10 pm |
    • Lee

      "In God We Trust" was not our national motto until the 1950s mister "the way our fantastic county was founded." Why do you think the const.itution makes no mention of a god or gods? Because they intended for every religion (or none) to be equal.

      November 8, 2013 at 2:13 pm |
    • HotAirAce

      There is no mention of any god in the US const!tution but I'm sure you won't let that fact get in the way of your delusions.

      November 8, 2013 at 2:14 pm |
      • Troll Spotter

        Sure there is.
        " Done in convention by the unanimous consent of the states present the seventeenth day of September in the year of our LORD=God one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven and of the independence of the United States of America."

        November 8, 2013 at 3:57 pm |
        • HotAirAce

          Ok, you are right – that reference, arguably irrelevant to the content of the rest of the docu.ment, is absolute proof the US was intended to be a theocracy. Too bad nothing else in US law does.

          November 8, 2013 at 4:09 pm |
        • Richard Cranium

          Odd that you would quote from the Declaration on Independance when trying to support your false argument about the const!tution.

          Care to try again?

          November 10, 2013 at 1:39 pm |
        • Check


          The Declaration of Independence (written by Thomas Jefferson) uses: "IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776."

          The Const.itution uses the more formal "In the Year of our Lord..." The Consti.tution also used the formal "Congrefs" and things like that too, though.

          November 10, 2013 at 1:51 pm |
    • markinator

      Let's pretend that you're correct, and allow prayers to begin public meetings. When the prayer begins, I'll stand and clap loudly, whistle, and fart. That's the way I pray. I find silent prayer by a hypocritical clergy to be offensive. Also, my prayer will last longer than the entire public meeting. See how I did that?

      November 8, 2013 at 2:57 pm |
      • Bob

        Terrific post, markinator.

        November 8, 2013 at 3:44 pm |
      • Troll Spotter

        Found one.

        November 8, 2013 at 3:47 pm |
        • Troll Spotter

          found myself.

          November 8, 2013 at 6:08 pm |
      • atheistsidiots


        YES! Absolutely, you are free to do all that. Tell that to your fellow atheists that they will waste their time, energy and money in going to court no more.

        November 11, 2013 at 5:06 am |
  16. AlbaMN

    First off, I am not a big fan of group prayer. To me prayer is one of my personal connections to God and not something that applies to or involves anyone else. This applies in church as well as anywhere else.
    However, if the council wishes someone to pray for them to have God offer his guidance, more power to them. As long as the person praying aloud does NOT intimate what they believe that guidance should be or would consist of.

    November 8, 2013 at 1:51 pm |
  17. Felix Sinclair

    In God we Trust. Until we need a doctor or police officer or firefighter or soldier or lawyer...

    November 8, 2013 at 1:02 pm |
    • ME II

      ... or food... or water

      November 8, 2013 at 4:05 pm |
  18. Akira

    I agree with this 100%. I am employed by a library, and it is nothing like the libraries of yesteryear were.

    November 8, 2013 at 11:38 am |
    • Akira

      Misfire; meant for Fred below.

      November 8, 2013 at 11:44 am |
  19. Fred

    Why is "Chance did it!" better than "God did it!"
    Where did chance come from?

    November 8, 2013 at 9:31 am |
    • Colin

      Why is chance better than a magic sky-fairy did it? Where did chance come from?

      November 8, 2013 at 9:33 am |
    • Jake

      "I admit that I don't know what did it, but I'm interested in trying to figure it out" is better than "I don't know what did it, but I'm going to pretend I know that it was done by some made up invisible fantasy man for which I have absolutely zero evidence".

      November 8, 2013 at 9:45 am |
    • ME II

      Chance, or statistical probability, means within a range of known outcomes. In other words, it does happen. So to answer your question of where it comes from; it comes from experience.

      November 8, 2013 at 10:41 am |
  20. Fred

    A sign should be put up on libraries "This is not a telephone booth, or a day-care center, or a high school cafeteria."

    November 8, 2013 at 9:31 am |
    • Akira

      I agree 100%.

      November 8, 2013 at 11:42 am |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.