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November 6th, 2013
12:18 PM ET
Let us pray? Supreme Court divided on God in governmentBy Bill Mears and Daniel Burke, CNN WASHINGTON (CNN) - Should prayers to God open government meetings? That's the controversial question a divided Supreme Court debated on Wednesday. At oral arguments about whether public prayers at a New York town's board meetings are permissible, the high court took a broad look at the country's church-state history and even the Supreme Court's own traditions. Two local women sued officials in Greece, New York, objecting that monthly Town Board public sessions have opened with invocations they say have been overwhelmingly Christian. But the case's implications extend far beyond upstate New York and could have widespread consequences, according to constitutional scholars. "This is going to affect communities across the country," said Charles C. Haynes, a senior scholar at the First Amendment Center. The frequent court battles over public prayers, Ten Commandment memorials and holiday displays might strike some Americans as silly, but they touch on deep questions about national identity to reach back to the Founding Fathers, Haynes said. "It's a long struggle in our country about self-definition and what our country was founded to be. That's why we keep circling back to these emotional and highly divisive questions." At Wednesday's oral arguments, the court's conservative majority appeared to have the votes to allow the public prayers to continue in some form, but both sides expressed concerns about the level of judicial and government oversight over prayers presented by members of a particular faith. "We are a very religiously diverse country," said Justice Samuel Alito, who worried about the town officials setting up binding guidelines. "All should be treated equally. So I can't see how you can compose a prayer that is acceptable to all these" religions. But Justice Sonia Sotomayor worried about the effect on local citizens who choose not to stand and bow their heads when asked during a public prayer. "You think any of those people wouldn't feel coerced to stand?" MORE ON CNN: Atheist gets her day at the Supreme Court The high court began its public session Wednesday as it has for decades, with the marshal invoking a traditional statement that ends, "God save the United States and this honorable court." The town outside Rochester began allowing prayers to start its meetings in 1999, after years of having a moment of silence. Co-plaintiffs Linda Stephens and Susan Galloway challenged the revised policy, saying officials repeatedly ignored their requests to modify or eliminate the practice, or at least make it more inclusive. "It's very divisive when you bring government into religion," Stephens said. "I don't believe in God, and Susan is Jewish, so to hear these ministers talk about Jesus and even have some of them who personally question our motives, it's just not appropriate." The town of about 94,000 residents counters that after hearing concerns from the two women and others, it sought diverse voices, including a Wiccan priestess, to offer invocations. Officials said they do not review the content of the remarks, nor censor any language. "The faith of the prayer-giver does not matter at all," said John Auberger, Greece's board supervisor, who began the practice shortly after taking office 1998. "We accept anyone who wants to come in and volunteer to give the prayer to open up our town meetings." A federal appeals court in New York found the board's policy to be an unconstitutional violation of the Constitution's establishment clause, which forbids any government "endorsement" of religion. Those judges said it had the effect of "affiliating the town with Christianity." Congress and state legislatures regularly open their sessions with prayers. One question before the Supreme Court is whether local government bodies are different, in that there might be more active involvement with local citizens, who may want to personally petition the town in zoning, tax, and other matters. MORE ON CNN: Town prayers need less Jesus, more Krishna Justice Elena Kagan explored the limits of permissible government action by using the Supreme Court as an example. She asked whether the court could suddenly invite a Christian minister to invoke the following prayer, inside the ornate marbled courtroom: "We acknowledge the saving sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross." "Would that be permissible?" asked Kagan. Attorney Thomas Hungar, attorney for the town of Greece, suggested courts were different, and that the national legislature had had similar prayers since the nation's founding. "Whatever line might be drawn between nonlegislative bodies and legislative bodies," Hungar said, "it would be incongruous, if Congress could have legislative prayers and the states couldn't." But the lawyer for the plaintiffs, supported by Americans United for Separation of Church and State, said unlike legislatures, Greece had no official policy on prayers. "The policy should give guidelines to chaplains that say, 'Stay away from points in which believers are known to disagree,'" said Douglas Laycock, who represented the two women objecting to the prayers. "And we think the town should do what it can to ameliorate coercion. It should tell the clergy: 'Don't ask people to physically participate.' That's the most important thing." But some justices on the high court expressed doubts about the extent to which lawmakers - and later courts - should advise various faiths about what to say, and parse what is sectarian or not. "Give me an example of a prayer that is acceptable to all of the groups that I mentioned," said Alito, whose list included Hindus, Muslims, and Buddhists. When Laycock suggested something like, "The prayers to the almighty, prayers to the creator," Alito and others were unconvinced, saying polytheists might object. "What about devil worshippers?" asked Justice Antonin Scalia, bringing laughter to the courtroom. "Well, if devil worshippers believe the devil is the almighty, they might be OK with it," responded Laycock, smiling. "Who was supposed to make these determinations? Is there supposed to be an officer of the town council that will review?" asked Chief Justice John Roberts. "Do prayers have to be reviewed for his approval in advance?" Justice Anthony Kennedy, who may prove to be the swing vote in his petition, was especially vocal. "It just seems to me that enforcing that standard involves the state very heavily in the censorship and the approval or disapproval of prayers," he said. "I'm serious about this. This involves government very heavily in religion." He also suggested small towns deserve as much right to allow a brief prayer in public sessions as federal and state bodies. "In a way it sounds quite elitist to say, 'Well, now, we can do this in Washington and Sacramento and Austin, Texas, but you people up there in Greece can't do that.'" Several members of Congress were in attendance at the argument, including Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Florida. "Every day before the Senate meets, the Senate chaplain comes out and gives a prayer, and that's important to us," Rubio told CNN just after arguments ended. "It's part of our country's tradition; it's also our constitutional right, to be able to exercise that. And I thought it was important to defend that here today." Nearly 120 members of Congress, mostly Republicans, along with 18 state attorneys general, have filed supporting legal briefs backing the city. The Obama administration is doing the same. Stephens and Galloway, the two plaintiffs, said they have faced harassment from their community and even vandalism of their property. "The pastors face the people (in the meetings), they don't face the town government, so it's like they're praying over us," Galloway told CNN after the argument. "When they all stood and I sat, and I have a hundred eyes looking at me, and questioning what's going on, they think I'm being disrespectful. It does put a lot of pressure on you and it makes you very uncomfortable. It singles you out, and that shouldn't be in my town government, and it shouldn't be anywhere." The high court has generally taken a case-by-case approach on determining just when the state intrudes unconstitutionally into religion, while generally allowing faith to be acknowledged in a limited basis in public forums. "In God We Trust" remains on currency; the Pledge of Allegiance and oaths of office mention a divine creator; and menorah and crèche displays are permitted in local parks. But the justices acknowledge the tricky line they must walk - politically, socially and legally - when deciding church-state cases. "It's hard because the (Supreme) Court lays down these rules, and everybody thinks that the court is being hostile to religion, and people get unhappy and angry and agitated," said Kagan near the end of Wednesday's oral arguments. "Part of what we are trying to do here is to maintain a multireligious society in a peaceful and harmonious way. And every time the court gets involved in things like this, it seems to make the problem worse rather than better." The case is Town of Greece, N.Y. v. Galloway (12-696). A ruling is expected by early summer. |
  About this blog
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Minorities are the tyrants when they want to see you punished you simply for criticizing them or asking questions about them. This is what tyrants do.
Who are the "minorities/tyrants/they/them" and who is "you", and what is the punishment, criticizing, and questions being asked?
Ignorance of nuclear energy could prevented Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Chernobyl, Three Mile Island, and many tests in the deserts and in the Pacific.
I am a Christian and I will never abandon my belief in a higher power but even I would have to admit that God has no place in a public funded building.
For the benefit of your fellow believers, you may want to elaborate on "God has no place in a public funded building."
Benevolent dictator is not an oxymoron.
If a dictator can prevent you from being punished for what you say, or for the questions that you ask, that's a good thing: benevolence.
What do you mean by that?
Whenever a white person says something, or asks a question, that minority groups don't like, that person is always expected to be punished somehow, usually by losing his or her job. This is tyranny.
Holy non sequitur, Fred!
I’d say no to Christmas decorations or the Ten Commandments on government buildings.
Good for you, actually many Christians feel the same way, and all logically should. I felt this way when I was a Christian. I think Americans for the Seperation of Church and State is/has been run by a Reverand.
It is the logical position, there is no guarentee that Christianity will always be the dominate religion, or that some form of Christianity will not get power over other forms of Christianity. The idea that "all Christians are on the same team" is
a relatively new one.
In the 1983 case Marsh v. Chambers, the dissenting opinion of Brennan and Thurgood Marshall include "The Court makes no pretense of subjecting Nebraska's practice of legislative prayer to any of the formal 'tests' that have traditionally structured our inquiry under the Establishment Clause. That it fails to do so is, in a sense, a good thing, for it simply confirms that the Court is carving out an exception to the Establishment Clause, rather than reshaping Establishment Clause doctrine to accommodate legislative prayer." (The Court then ruled 6-3 that the government funding for chaplains was consti-tutional because of the "unique history" of the United States.)
That ruling seems to fly in the face of the 1963 ruling (Engel v. Vitale), (6-1), that ruled it is unconsti-tutional for state officials to compose an official school prayer and encourage its recitation in public schools. I think Kennedy is highlighting this inconsistency.
includes
Brennan, who evidently co-wrote the dissenting opinion for the 1983 case, was heavily involved in the "companion" case to the 1962 case – the 1963 case regarding Bible reading. In that case Brennan wrote 73 pages to elaborate his ideas about what the Framers intention in the formation of the 1st and 14th Amendments. He was in office 34 years – nominated by Eisenhower.
Facts & citations are no way to make a point!
(ps – thanks for providing them)
Why is the supreme court divided on this? It's very simple, we are a free nation where religion is not required and separation of church and state is the primary concept our country was founded on. It should be unanimous across the board to not have prayer in government meetings. This is why Christians get such a bad name. They are emotionally connected to their religion and as a result refuse to acknowledge the freedoms our country was founded on or even look at it objectively. It's time to move on and stop clinging to old outdated customs just because it's what YOU believe. Shame on anyone who votes for this nonsense simply because you believe in a god. There's no reason everyone else should have to put up with that.
Freedom of speach.
Separation of church and state.
Freedom of religion. You can't promote your religion as greater than the beliefs, or lack of belief, of others. Religion is a private practice and does not belong in government sanctioned events. If you wish to pray at a government sanctioned event, you are free to do so quietly. You cannot force the entire room to listen to your prayers.
When you hear someone praying, are you personally offended?
@Robert Brown
Would you have a problem if they were Muslims, Scientologists, or Satanists, reciting their prayers?
Yes, see below.
Then you have no problem with busting out prayer mats and praying to Allah, before meetings, right, RB? Freedom of speech.
Robert Brown
Maynard,
I addressed a similar situation yesterday on here. I would rather have no prayer, than to listen to one to another god. I am persuaded that I already worship the one true and holy God, so prayers to other gods in my opinion are really being offered to satan.
November 7, 2013 at 11:28 am | Report abuse | Reply
This is what came up yesterday.
You’ve pretty well explained the modern thinking on the subject. I was talking to my grandmother one day and she was bemoaning the loss of teaching the bible in school, leading to school tragedies and moral decay of our society. I told her I understood, but I wouldn’t want someone teaching my kids another religion. When she was in school, they were smaller and more community oriented. Most kids in the school likely went to the same church. The church may have used the school building or vice versa. The increasing diversity of our population would cause someone to be offended now. For those who can afford the tuition, there are private religious schools.
Crossed posts.
Perhaps now you can see the wisdom of keeping government and religion separate, as everyone else who isn't Christian feels as you do when they hear Christian prayers being uttered.
Robert, I went to both Christian and Public school. The christain school is where I learned how to swear, drink, smoke, do drugs, they were a lot more fun.
You Grandma is applying a cause (bible and god out of school) to an effect (worse kids) without actually proving her (or your) case. Not impressed.
RB –
I'm curious
Is it your contention that slander and libel are protected under Free Speech?
No
This is not a freedom of speech issue, nobody is losing their freedom of expression that is a hot button term christians like you use to try and turn this into an emotional response.
Question for Xtians –
Of the two scenarios below ... which would you prefer?
A) An Imam saying a prayer to Allah asking for him to give wisdom to the city council for wise decisions
or
B) No prayers whatsoever; Straight to the matters at hand
.. Oh yea
And why did you choose your answer
🙂
With all the questions christians already won't/can't answer, do you think any will reply to this?
Alias –
Good question
To be honest ... I really don't know.
That being said, I hope that they do.
I just do not understand why challenging your knowledge base is a bad thing. I do that every day here, at this forum.
Maynard,
I addressed a similar situation yesterday on here. I would rather have no prayer, than to listen to one to another god. I am persuaded that I already worship the one true and holy God, so prayers to other gods in my opinion are really being offered to satan.
Interesting -
Can you see how people of other faiths would want the same thing you do ?
( Opting to have no prayer, than to listen to one to another god )
Do you think that your wishes should trump theirs? Is your god better?
Yes, I understand why people of other faiths would want the same thing. I don’t think my wishes are more important than another’s. I do think my God is better.
I think public prayer is ok because acknowledging the power and presence of God in a public setting we are witnessing to those within earshot that there is a God. God may use something said to touch the heart of someone in attendance. It isn’t ok if the person praying is just showing off, it should be done for the glory of God.
So, just making sure I understand, public prayer is only ok when it is YOUR god. Right ?
ONLY your god should "touch the heart of someone in attendance"?
And they think they pray to the One. Yours doesn't trump theirs. Sorry, RB.
Don't you think you are being very rude to people who worship Satan?
Justice Kennedy's comments and questions, I believe, give a hint at what is really needed: make the government more completely adhere to the intended principles of the EC and then it may properly extend that complete adherence, via the 14th Amendment, to the states.
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 1 Timothy 2:1-2 KJV
Have the people who want to pray come a few minutes earlier to the start of the town hall meetings, so that they can pray.
That way, those who don't want to partake of prayer can skip the prayer time.
It's not that simple. Religion has no place in government. The prayer buddies can meet at Ihop after the meeting.
That is the best solution. That should work!
Simple solution,
Nope. No reason why they can't meet at their church. Government buildings are not churches.
Great!
That would be the simplest solution that solves the problem!
Here's a better idea. Pray at home BEFORE you come to the meeting. That way everyone can practice whatever religious cult rituals they want ahead of time and nobody has to worry about their god or belief system being left out. Do religious folk honestly believe god will be angry if they pray at home instead of together as a group?
Actually Robert, you just cited forged scripture. First Timothy is one of the three Letters of Paul that are now widely accepted as forgeries penned pseudonomously under Paul's name years after he died. The other two are Second Timothy and Ti.tus. We know this because the forgers gave themselves up by referring to developments in the early Christian Church that occurred well after Paul died.
It would be like finding a letter allegedly written by Martin Luther King that says, "I was impressed with how the black community reacted to Osama Bin Laden's attack on the World Trade Center".
Odd that the Bible, being the inspired word of God, contains forgeries, isn't it?
Stated opinions are the result of freedom.
RB, that is the DUMBEST answer to Colin's statement. It isn't "opinion," it is FACT. You are such a wimp. Do you realize, that by using the term my god, as you have done, indicates that there are other gods, but you choose one over others? This shows a real lack of critical thinking, and the fact that you just spew out nonsense in defense of the indefensible.
"4. For God is the judge. He doth know which beverages to abase, and which to exalt. 5. For there is a cup in the hand of the Lord, and within that cup layeth Folgers. 6. And those upon the right hand of the Lord knowest that the best part of the waking hour is Folgers in thine cup." -Nutrisystemicon 19:4-6
Don't tell Joseph Smith!
"17. Thou shalt not picketh at thy wounds or scabs or sores, for if thou picketh it, it shall never heal. In times of greatest temptation or weakness, ye must useth a band-aid." -Johnson & Johnson 25:17
I must admit, I am really enjoying your version of the Bible.
Image I built a golden calf. I put it on an altar and I assured everybody that if you prayed to it, it would answer your prayers. Now think about what would happen when people prayed to it. Most times what they asked for would not transpire. Every now and then, through sheer luck, it would.
Now, if people doubted my golden calf, how would I respond. I bet I would say things like:
1. The golden calf always answers prayers, it’s just that sometimes the answer is “no” or “not yet.”
2. The golden calf moves in mysterious ways.
3. The golden calf knows what is best for you. You should take into account the bigger picture.
4. Sometimes the golden calf has a plan for us all. In the long run HE looks out for you.
5. You should not question the golden calf.
6. Sometimes I thank the Golden Calf for “unanswered prayers.”
Now think about the excuses Christians give when God does not answer prayers. See any difference?
Colin, great set of posts from you this morning. Thanks for your clearly presented clear thinking.
On a somewhat related, and optimistic note, I think that we might now be witnessing the early stages of the decline of the Christian superstition in America. The numbers in published studies seem to mostly reflect this. I have some concerns about the possibility of some new myth set displacing the Christian one, but Christianity does appear to be on its way into joining prior human god myths such as the Greek ones into the sorry dustbin of history for such ridiculous god beliefs.
I think that this blog may actually assist the decline of Christianity, in that Christian supporters, time and time again, are being shown that their beliefs do not stand up to scrutiny, and that evidence, science, and reason point away from the crazy Christian beliefs.
Cheers, and Thank You.
Bob
Thanks Bob. I think the internet in general is great for dispelling the Christian superst.ition. Kids are now exposed to alternative views in their early to mid teens that the once never got until they reached college. I grew up Catholic and was amazed and delighted when I read my first atheist book at age 14. It made SO much sense.
All we have to do is keep pointing out the absurdities of the Christian superst.ition. The fact that they have no valid answer to our criticisms speak volumes.
A young mind opened can rarely be forced shut again.
First atheist book at 14. How cute. I, too, went through that questioning stage when I was a teenager. I do hope you continue to keep your mind open and research life, the universe, and everything. You may find out some day, once you're no longer a teenager who knows everything, that there are vast mysteries in this vast universe worthy of study.
Or look what prayer can lead to.
Christian homeschoolers receive maximum jail time for death of child
http://www.examiner.com/article/christian-homeschoolers-receive-maximum-jail-time-for-death-of-child
They should drop prayer and respect the establishment clause.
Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Robert
Hate to BURST your bubble , but it does not work that way.
Scientists Solve Major Piece in the Origin of Biological Complexity
Nov. 6, 2013 — Scientists have puzzled for centuries over how and why multicellular organisms evolved the almost universal trait of using single cells, such as eggs and sperm, to reproduce. Now researchers led by University of Minnesota College of Biological Sciences postdoctoral fellow William Ratcliff and associate professor Michael Travisano have set a big piece of that puzzle into place by applying experimental evolution to transform a single-celled algae into a multicellular one that reproduces by dispersing single cells.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/11/131106073859.htm
So yes they should DROP prayer and RESPECT the EC .
Crazy stuff, Robert. Why do you keep posting it?
"1. After His divine stork did deliver the newborn babes to the little village of Bethlehem, the heavenly voice of the Lord did call from above. 'Mine flock, may thine new progeny grow in glory to love and serve Me. 2. Now, for the naming of the males, useth profound words such as 'mighty' (David), 'successful' (Felix), 'flourishing' (Omar), 'crown' (Stephen), or 'strong man' (Gabriel). 3. And for the unclean females, simply useth common or unflattering words such as 'plain' (Sharon), 'garden' (Carmel), 'weary' (Leah), 'fig' (Beth), or 'gaping' (Rahab). These names will be best, so sayeth Me.'" -Misogynists 21:1-3
Sarah, princess
Name is Ron, but thanks for playing.
I am going to suggest something counter-intuitive and even an anathema to most atheists (and indeed most Americans). I am going to suggest that we not only making prayer permissible in government schools, but make it MANDATORY.
We do it in the following manner. Upon entry into high school, each child “adopts” a wounded veteran or other person who has a visible and incurable condition, such as a lost leg, arm or eye. Each day the children pray to God that the person recover their lost appendage. We hold prayer sessions every Monday morning for every week/month and year of their high school experience. Those children who have other beliefs can bow, chant, jiggle an amulet, stare into a crystal or do whatever they wish to “pray” for their chosen ailing person.
Five years later, at their graduation, prayer can put up or shut up. We parade the injured people through the graduation ceremony so the children can see the results of their 5 solid years of constant prayer. Just how many limbs, eyes or ears do you think will have re-grown? And why are you so sure of that? Does God hate amputees? Why does he always have to hide his medical miracles inside the body of the sick, where things are less medically certain?
The doubtless, consistent and universal failure of their prayers will help the students understand:
(i) that there is no god listening and that praying is a futile exercise when the results can REALLY be tested;
(ii) the frailties of their religious leaders as they scurry for excuses –“god won’t be tested”, “god moves in mysterious ways,” “perhaps the people have been healed spiritually”, etc; and
(iii) the weakness of human nature (and a basic lesson in politics) as the religious right moves to shut the experiments down.
Luke 11:29
And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
"7. And the Lord did tell Abraham that in faith there existeth signs and numbers of which to be wary. For instance, know ye that the number six-six-six doth belong to the devil himself! 8. In grief, Abraham did ask the Lord what was His number. Sayeth the Lord: 'Why, the holy number, thusly, is seven-seven-seven. Lo! The devil hath fear of this number indeed! 9. For everyone knoweth six is afraid of seven because seven ate nine!' The Lord did laugh heartily, and it was good." -Numerology 6:7-9
That's pathetic, Robert, that you would present that bible quote as some form of prophecy. Any person off the street can say general stuff like that or that "bad shit is gonna happen", and eventually be right just because enough stuff does happen. Try instead finding where your mythbook says exactly which generation is the one it means. Good luck with that.
"Hermione: Stop moving, both of you. This is devil's snare! You have to relax. If you don't, it'll only kill you faster!"
Harry potter
It doesn't hurt anything, either.
Which of the following people sometimes have their prayers answered and which groups are ignored 100% of the time?
1. People who lose something, like their iphone, and pray that they will find it.
2. People who have lost a leg and pray that it will grow back.
3. People who have a serious, but curable medical condition and pray that the doctors will cure them.
4. People who have lost an eye in an accident and would like it to grow back.
5. People who pray that they will not lose their job during a downturn.
6. People who had AIDS before medical science came up with what is effectively a cure.
I could obviously go on, making a very long list of circu.mstances in which prayers are sometimes “answered” and circu.mstances where they are 100% ignored. The conclusion is glaringly obvious. Prayers are only ever “answered” when the favorable outcome was a distinct possibility anyhow. Where the outcome would truly take divine intervention, it NEVER happens. Ergo, we are simply interpreting favorable outcomes that would have happened anyway as “prayers being answered.”
There is no Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim or Native American god listening. Prayer is as useless as crossing one’s fingers. It doesn’t even have a very good placebo effect.
John 4:48
Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.
Actually, Robert, it's just that we need to see reason and evidence, and time and time again you've shown that you have none for your crazy Christian superstitions.
Yet again here, your statement quoted from your crazy bible is simply and plainly inaccurate. Thanks for playing, though.
"Well, thank you for that assessment, Mr Weasley. Perhaps it would be more useful if I were to transfigure Mr Potter and yourself into a pocket watch. That way, one of you might be on time."
Harry Potter
"...................The high court began its public session Wednesday as it has for decades, with the marshal invoking a traditional statement that ends, "God save the United States and this honorable court."..................."
God SAVE the Bloods states and the Crips states!!!!
BBBbbbbwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahaha
You can keep your food stamps, lol??. Don't worry.
What is more effective in causing things to happen?
1. Christian prayers
2. Jiggling a New Age amulet
3. Praying to Allah
4. A Native American spirit dance; or
5. They are equally as ineffective
I'll go with #6. Go out into the world and actually work to get it done. Prayer is the ultimate laziness.
- "Every day before the Senate meets, the Senate Chaplain comes out and gives a prayer, and that's important to us," Rubio told CNN just after arguments ended. -
I'm actually shocked by this. I think this practice is in violation of the Const.i.tution, and am suprised that nobody has challenged it.
Watching the news last night I think I heard that the SCOTUS actually ruled back in 1930 that his was ok ... but not sure.
Can anyone confirm?
IF true ... a precedent has been established and I could see prayer speading further and further into the government.
Very sad
People have challenged it multiple times. But no one in power is willing to commint political suicde and go against the religious majority. Sad they think that placating the majority is more important than the const!tution.
Yeah, Richard, it seems like we need a child to come along and boldly tell everyone that the religion emperor has no clothes, since the adults apparently lack the guts to do so.
Bob
As a child in 1970, i refused to recite the pledge of allegience, since I did not believe in any gods. I got in trouble with the school, until my father went to them and straightened them out. He was presbyterian, and had been asked to not bring me to sunday school because my questions were " disruptive". He abandoned the church at that point.
In my case it was a child that led the charge.
Cool, Richard. Well done for you. I didn't speak out much myself as a child, partly because my parents had come out of tough early lives and I didn't want to shock them even more or be too difficult by arguing about their religions with them. Now I speak out more.
Much as I said to Colin earlier, thanks for brightening my day with that anecdote. It shows that we can make change happen.
Yes, as RC stated, the practice of maintaining congressional chaplains has been challenged multiple times as early as the 1850s and as recently as 1983. James Madison, chief architect of the Consti-tution and eleven Amendments including the Bill or Rights definitely thought the practice was a violation of the Establishment Clause and the principles of religious freedom. (See Madison Papers, LOC.) (The Wiki page on "Chaplain of the United States Senate" seems to have a good summary. I can't locate the link at the moment, but I had found a while back a site that listed all of the challenges to the Establishment Clause.)
From the article, I think Justice Kennedy has some good questions. Such as – how can the Court involve itself with trying to apply the EC at such a local level when the government itself is not following the EC? Especially when, in the case of the government, the taxpayer, I believe, is footing the bill for these chaplains.
Bill of Rights
not "a site that listed all of the challenges to the Establishment Clause." but a site that listed all cases involving the EC.
".....................But the justices acknowledge the tricky line they must walk – politically, socially, legally– when deciding church-state cases.........................................."
Yup, God SAVE the tricky walkers!!!
BBBbbbwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahaahaha
"Every day before the Senate meets, the Senate Chaplain comes out and gives a prayer, and that's important to us," Rubio told CNN just after arguments ended."...and how is that working for ya?
Wait until an imam delivers 5 prayers a day before the Christian hypocrites start whining about the separation of church and state!
Right, I'd like to know how many of these folks went looking for daily group prayer in their previous jobs. The got this one, inherited the daily prayers, and realized quickly that not playing along would play out poorly with the voters who care about this kind of thing.
Exactly, Sara. Sadly, I've witnessed exactly what you describe happen in the workplace as new employees join a team.
A prayer to end all the inanity of religion:
The Apostles' Creed 2013: (updated by yours truly and based on the studies of historians and theologians of the past 200 years)
Should I believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven??
I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)
Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,
He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of
Jerusalem.
Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by
many semi-fiction writers. A descent into Hell, a bodily resurrection
and ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.
Amen
At our facility in a large medical center all doors are marked with a circle with a slash through it over a handgun – no weapons allowed. I think they are on most public buildings here as well. I'd like to see similar markings on public buildings, but with praying hands instead of a handgun.
Perhaps a Bad Religion "crossbuster" ?
CNN is infested with Christian value BS!
Islam kills
90% of Christians use contraception; Christians have the highest divorce rates; the Vatican folks touch themselves! So much for religious moral value BS, eh?
Your god is incompetent, ignorant, and irrelevant!
Maybe one day you'll learn the definition of the word "irrelevant". Evidently you seem to think that gods are relevant in some way otherwise you wouldn't bother posting a complaint.
If condoms are evil, why did god create STDs?
You're griping about the ORIGINAL gubmint church?? And then you want the Diverse Beast to have greater powers?? Where's it gonna end??
Coup??
I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that
no. he gives u choice. 60,000,000 fetuses destroyed for mercedes and convenience. that's indicative of how good atheists r w/o god!
November 7, 2013 at 2:29 am | Report abuse | Reply
HotAirAce
Ummmmmm. 42,000,000+ of those fetuses were aborted by believers.
November 7, 2013 at 3:45 am | Report abuse | Reply
Reality # 2
And that is because "believers" are stupid on many fronts:
The reality of se-x, abortion, contraception and STD/HIV control: – from an agnostic guy who enjoys intelligent se-x-
Note: Some words hyphenated to defeat an obvious word filter. ...
The Brutal Effects of Stupidity:
: The failures of the widely used birth "control" methods i.e. the Pill (8.7% actual failure rate) and male con-dom (17.4% actual failure rate) have led to the large rate of abortions and S-TDs in the USA. Men and women must either recognize their responsibilities by using the Pill or co-ndoms properly and/or use safer methods in order to reduce the epidemics of abortion and S-TDs.- Failure rate statistics provided by the Gut-tmacher Inst-itute. Unfortunately they do not give the statistics for doubling up i.e. using a combination of the Pill and a condom.
Added information before making your next move:
"Se-xually transmitted diseases (STDs) remain a major public health challenge in the United States. While substantial progress has been made in preventing, diagnosing, and treating certain S-TDs in recent years, CDC estimates that approximately 19 million new infections occur each year, almost half of them among young people ages 15 to 24.1 In addition to the physical and psy-ch-ological consequences of S-TDs, these diseases also exact a tremendous economic toll. Direct medical costs as-sociated with STDs in the United States are estimated at up to $14.7 billion annually in 2006 dollars."
See also: http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/26/opinion/bolan-se-xual-health/index.html?hpt=hp_t4
And from:
"Adolescents don’t think or-al se-x is something to worry about (even though is becoming a major cause of throat cancer)," said Bonnie Halpern-Felsher professor of pediatrics at the University of California, San Francisco. "They view it as a way to have intimacy without having 's-ex.'" (Maybe it should be called the Bill Clinton Syndrome !!)
Obviously, political leaders in both parties, Planned Parenthood, parents, the "stupid part of the USA" and the educational system have failed miserably on many fronts.
The most effective forms of contraception, ranked by "Perfect use":
– (Abstinence, 0% failure rate)
– (Masturbation, mono or mutual, 0% failure rate)
Followed by:
One-month injectable and Implant (both at 0.05 percent)
Vasectomy and IUD (Mirena) (both at 0.1 percent)
The Pill, Three-month injectable, and the Patch (all at 0.3 percent)
Tubal sterilization (at 0.5 percent)
IUD (Copper-T) (0.6 percent)
Periodic abstinence (Post-ovulation) (1.0 percent)
Periodic abstinence (Symptothermal) and Male condom (both at 2.0 percent)
Periodic abstinence (Ovulation method) (3.0 percent)
Every other method ranks below these, including Withdrawal (4.0), Female condom (5.0), Diaphragm (6.0), Periodic abstinence (calendar) (9.0), the Sponge (9.0-20.0, depending on whether the woman using it has had a child in the past), Cervical cap (9.0-26.0, with the same caveat as the Sponge), and Spermicides (18.0).
November 7, 2013 at 8:21 am | Report abuse | Reply
IslamKills
You and, especially, your god are incompetent and ignorant!
November 7, 2013 at 4:52 am | Report abuse | Reply
IslamKills
Not to mention, irrelevant! 🙂
November 7, 2013 at 4:54 am | Report abuse | Reply
Science Works
And Texas where Cruz is from took a big hit on 2 fronts this month.
1. The new abortion law was declared unconsti-tional and prevents abortion clinics from closing.
2. Texas publishers said NO creationism/ID in new text books for 2014 and text books last about 10 years !!!
November 7, 2013 at 5:59 am | Report abuse | Reply
Science Works
Not this month it was last month.
November 7, 2013 at 6:01 am | Report abuse | Reply
Science Works
Kentucky where creation museum is, is also joining the 21st century with the new science education program developed by 26 states.
November 7, 2013 at 6:08 am | Report abuse | Reply
Sara
One of the problems these ant-science states face is that no one will set up a new business in Kansas or Kentucky because you can't recruit educated workers to live in a place like that.
November 7, 2013 at 7:00 am | Report abuse | Reply
Science Works
Having an educated population to draw from = huge benefits (profits) for companies/country.
November 7, 2013 at 7:21 am | Report abuse |
MAX
Just like a coyote will lead a calf away by play Satan will lead someone away with science
November 7, 2013 at 7:48 am | Report abuse |
Science Works
Max you are like fred and Scalia way out there with the DEVIL/SATAN can you tell me does it really have horns and where does it reside ?
November 7, 2013 at 8:00 am | Report abuse |
Christians confuse mythology with reality
Max, tell us the story about how satan fooled us by planting those dinosaur bones...
November 7, 2013 at 9:24 am | Report abuse |
Science Works
Max and L4H and the soft tissue BS ! No satan/god(s) required !
Newly Discovered Predatory Dinosaur 'King of Gore' Reveals the Origins of T. Rex
Nov. 6, 2013 — A remarkable new species of tyrannosaur has been unearthed in Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument (GSENM), southern Utah. The huge carnivore inhabited Laramidia, a landmass formed on the western coast of a shallow sea that flooded the central region of North America,
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/11/131106131836.htm
November 7, 2013 at 9:32 am | Report abuse |
doobzz
@ Max
Do you go to a doctor when you are sick? Use a cell phone? How about that computer you're typing on?
Hypocrite.
November 7, 2013 at 10:55 am | Report abuse |
Science Works
OR Max was the devil riding in/on the meteorite that blew up over California last night.
And when it blew up it sent as mass of IRON (iron is in our blood Max)back into our planet.
How the Universe's Violent Youth Seeded Cosmos With Iron
Oct. 30, 2013 — By detecting an even distribution of iron throughout a massive galaxy cluster, astrophysicists can tell the 10-billion-year-old story of how exploding stars and black holes sowed the early cosmos with heavy elements.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/131030152916.htm
November 7, 2013 at 8:25 am | Report abuse | Reply
Reality # 2
The reality of se-x, abortion, contraception and STD/HIV control: – from an agnostic guy who enjoys intelligent se-x-
Note: Some words hyphenated to defeat an obvious word filter. ...
The Brutal Effects of Stupidity:
The failures of the widely used birth "control" methods i.e. the Pill (8.7% actual failure rate) and male con-dom (17.4% actual failure rate) have led to the large rate of abortions and S-TDs in the USA. Men and women must either recognize their responsibilities by using the Pill or co-ndoms properly and/or use safer methods in order to reduce the epidemics of abortion and S-TDs.- Failure rate statistics provided by the Gut-tmacher Inst-itute. Unfortunately they do not give the statistics for doubling up i.e. using a combination of the Pill and a condom.
Added information before making your next move:
"Se-xually transmitted diseases (STDs) remain a major public health challenge in the United States. While substantial progress has been made in preventing, diagnosing, and treating certain S-TDs in recent years, CDC estimates that approximately 19 million new infections occur each year, almost half of them among young people ages 15 to 24.1 In addition to the physical and psy-ch-ological consequences of S-TDs, these diseases also exact a tremendous economic toll. Direct medical costs as-sociated with STDs in the United States are estimated at up to $14.7 billion annually in 2006 dollars."
See also: http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/26/opinion/bolan-se-xual-health/index.html?hpt=hp_t4
And from:
"Adolescents don’t think or-al se-x is something to worry about (even though is becoming a major cause of throat cancer)," said Bonnie Halpern-Felsher professor of pediatrics at the University of California, San Francisco. "They view it as a way to have intimacy without having 's-ex.'" (Maybe it should be called the Bill Clinton Syndrome !!)
Obviously, political leaders in both parties, Planned Parenthood, parents, the "stupid part of the USA" and the educational system have failed miserably on many fronts.
The most effective forms of contraception, ranked by "Perfect use":
– (Abstinence, 0% failure rate)
– (Masturbation, mono or mutual, 0% failure rate)
Followed by:
One-month injectable and Implant (both at 0.05 percent)
Vasectomy and IUD (Mirena) (both at 0.1 percent)
The Pill, Three-month injectable, and the Patch (all at 0.3 percent)
Tubal sterilization (at 0.5 percent)
IUD (Copper-T) (0.6 percent)
Periodic abstinence (Post-ovulation) (1.0 percent)
Periodic abstinence (Symptothermal) and Male condom (both at 2.0 percent)
Periodic abstinence (Ovulation method) (3.0 percent)
Every other method ranks below these, including Withdrawal (4.0), Female condom (5.0), Diaphragm (6.0), Periodic abstinence (calendar) (9.0), the Sponge (9.0-20.0, depending on whether the woman using it has had a child in the past), Cervical cap (9.0-26.0, with the same caveat as the Sponge), and Spermicides (18.0).
November 7, 2013 at 8:18 am | Report abuse | Reply
Did you know that adult evangelical Christians score lower on natural history tests than fifth grade Korean and Dutch students? It is sadly true.
Colin,
Please list your source.
Why? If you're a Christian, you don't need proof, you just have faith.
Christians have very little in common other than a belief. You can not generalize any more than you can about atheists.
Stop looking for trends and look at individuals. People deserve to be more than their labels.
See Sherkat's analysis of the negative influence of religion.
Also note the 2007 Pew forum findings that 64% of religious people admit they would choose their religions teachings over science. And that's not even counting those who would unconsciously manipulate the data to match their religion.
http://www.pewforum.org/2007/08/27/how-the-public-resolves-conflicts-between-faith-and-science/
This is in the US, however, where pChristianity dominates. Leaders in some religions, including the Dalai Lama, have recommended overturning religious beliefs if they conflict with science.
"See Sherkat's analysis of the negative influence of religion." – I am an atheist and a devout reader and follower of Harris, Hitchens and Dawkins. I will look into Sherkat. BTW I also just started reading D'nesh DeSouza's "What's so Great About God?" which in the beginning he says the book is mostly about why God allows suffering, but early on it seems like a 'god has a plan' thing.
Christians include my grandmother, and probably the mom's and dad's of about half the people on here agreeing with you.
You can make fun of all the gods and fake beings you want but you are crossing the line when you start trying to stereotype real live people.
I'm afraid it's true. More than 70% of evangelical Christians are that ignorant of natural history that they think the entire Universe was created less than 10,000 years ago withan evil talking snake!! I'm not making this up. This is a woeful, sad level of utter ignorance in one of the World's most advanced nations.
The core problem is that, because they label their jawdropping ignorance as a "religious belief" teachers rarely have the spine to call them out.