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Where was God in the Philippines?
A flood survivor is surrounded by debris on the Philippine island of Leyte.
November 11th, 2013
11:16 AM ET

Where was God in the Philippines?

By Daniel Burke, CNN Belief Blog Co-editor

[twitter-follow screen_name='BurkeCNN']

(CNN) - The disasters are always different and often devastating. But the questions they raise are hauntingly familiar.

In the days since Super Typhoon Haiyan swept through the Philippines on Thursday, survivors are frantically searching for lost family members and international aid groups are springing into action.

Officials say the death toll may rise to 10,000 in the heavily Catholic country. Meanwhile, many people are asking: How should we make sense of such senseless death and destruction? Was God in the whirlwind itself, as the Bible hints, or present only in the aftermath, as people mobilize to provide food, water and shelter?

These questions may not be new, but we keep asking them, perhaps because the answers remain so elusive.

For many Americans, a paradox sits at the heart of their thinking about natural disasters. According to a survey taken after 2011's earthquake and tsunami in Japan, most Americans (56%) believe that God is control of everything.

But more Americans blame hurricanes, earthquakes and other storms on global warming (58%) than on an angry and punishing deity (38%), according to a 2011 poll by the Public Religion Research Institute.

“These kind of questions about God being in control and there simultaneously being suffering are the kind of things that keep seminarians up at night," institute CEO Robert P. Jones said in 2011.

"They’re thorny theological issues."

READ: Typhoon Haiyan: Survivors in Philippines face grim struggle as death toll rises

The Bible's Psalm 107 says that “For (God) commands, and raises the stormy wind, which lifts up the waves thereof. ... He turns rivers into a wilderness, and the water springs into dry ground."

But, as the poll shows, most Americans have moved past the idea that God causes natural disasters, wrote Stephen Prothero, a frequent CNN contributor, in a 2011 column.

"When it comes to earthquakes and hurricanes, our authorities are geologists and meteorologists," Prothero said as he rode out Hurricane Irene on Cape Cod in Massachusetts. "Most of us interpret these events not through the rumblings of the biblical prophet Jeremiah or the poetry of the Book of Revelation but through the scientific truths of air pressure and tectonic plates."

For atheists, storms like Haiyan are proof that God doesn't exist, author and activist Sam Harris said.

"Either God can do nothing to stop catastrophes like this, or he doesn’t care to, or he doesn’t exist. God is either impotent, evil or imaginary," Harris said after Japan's tsunami. "Take your pick, and choose wisely."

God may or may not be in withering storms, but many religious leaders say they sense a divine presence in the aftermath, as people across the world mobilize to lend a hand.

Rabbi Harold Kushner is one of the most famous names in the realm of theodicy, a branch of theology that tries to explain the unexplainable: why a good God would allow bad things to happen.

After Japan's tsunami, Kushner called nature "an equal-opportunity destroyer," making no distinctions between sinners and saints.

But Kushner, author of the bestselling book "When Bad Things Happen to Good People," said he sees God's hand in the resilience of people whose lives have been destroyed and in the "goodness and generosity" of strangers who donate and pray for the survivors.

READ: How to help victims of Typhoon Haiyan 

That still leaves a tricky question, though: Why do humans suffer, sometimes terribly, in the first place?

There's no good answer, says the Rev. James Martin, a Jesuit priest and best-selling author.

"Each person has to come to grips with that," Martin said. "It’s not as if some magic answer can be found. But the idea of God suffering along with us can be very helpful."

Muslims, on the other hand, see stormy trials as tests from God, said Sayyid Syeed, national director of the Islamic Society of North America’s Office of Interfaith and Community Alliances.

"Muslims believe that God tests those he loves, and these tragedies also serve as a reminder to the rest of us to remain grateful to God for all our blessings and cognizant that we must support those in need," Syeed said.

Vietnamese Buddhist master Thich Nhat Hanh, whose native country remains in Haiyan's path, said such storms remind us that our lives are impermanent and the importance of treasuring each moment.

"This is the best that we can do for those who have died: We can live in such a way that they can feel they are continuing to live in us, more mindfully, more profoundly, more beautifully, tasting every minute of life available to us, for them," Hanh said.

Stephen Prothero, Jessica Ravitz and Eric Marrapodi contributed to this report.

- CNN Religion Editor

Filed under: Asia • Atheism • Belief • Bible • Buddhism • Christianity • Death • Ethics • Faith • God • Islam • Judaism • natural disasters • Philippines • Prayer

soundoff (3,827 Responses)
  1. Ron

    "You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars...but that is not yet the end." Jesus (Mathew 24:6)

    November 12, 2013 at 5:30 pm |
    • corridorwatcher

      of war and rumors of wars, you mean of course. As far as the universe, it'll just keep going on. No end.

      November 13, 2013 at 8:12 pm |
      • Ron

        "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My Words will not pass away"......Jesus All that we can see around us is passing away. All that we can see was made by that which is unseen.The eternal is unseen, and the eternal will remain.

        November 14, 2013 at 4:56 pm |
  2. Vic

    I said something to the same effect before, and here it is again:

    Obviously, most commenters here who don't believe in God are partial against ONLY Christianity. Furthermore, the same people keep reviling the Bible on issues that have to do with the existence of God in general and regardless of any given scripture!

    November 12, 2013 at 5:30 pm |
    • Get Real

      Vic,

      And you have been told before:

      1. This is a U.S. based web site. Christianity is the dominant and the most intrusive religion here.

      2. Christians use The Bible as evidence for the existence of your "God" and what he purportedly thinks, says and did/does. That's why it is discussed.

      3. Quite a few articles on Islam have appeared here. Atheists comment with equal nonbelief on those.

      It really sounds like you are being dense, Vic.

      November 12, 2013 at 5:42 pm |
    • Greg

      Right. Atheists generally don't like God because they put faith in their intellect instead.

      Many are intellectually lazy and have never really looked into the relationship between science (the way we draw to understand the Creation we find ourselves in) and the Creator.

      It's an amazing creation that humans have very little power to change. No man can even make a termite, yet they boast that they have knowledge about creation. Pffff.

      November 12, 2013 at 5:56 pm |
      • Vic

        Not even a quark man can come up with!

        November 12, 2013 at 6:10 pm |
      • Fan2C

        And what do you KNOW for sure about this alleged "Creator"? You accept the fantasies of ancient Middle Eastern men who didn't even know what a light bulb is? Pffft.

        November 12, 2013 at 6:13 pm |
        • Greg

          Excuse me? Your question is disrespectful and presumes a view that I do not have.

          If you would like to carry on in a way that demonstrates that you are enlightened and free thinking, capable of productive discourse, then please try again. I have no desire to discuss God with trolls, so prove you aren't one.

          November 12, 2013 at 6:26 pm |
        • Fan2C

          Greg,
          "Excuse me? Your question is disrespectful and presumes a view that I do not have."

          Excuse me, but you said, "The Bible is absolutely the most powerful book that has ever existed, by any measure." and other paeans exalting that book's contents.

          I'll be glad to cease communication with you, though; you are a quite dreadful communicator.

          November 12, 2013 at 6:59 pm |
        • Greg

          Excuse me?

          Which book would you claim has changed more lives? Which book would you cite that has been published more?

          Don't be lazy.

          November 12, 2013 at 7:10 pm |
        • Observer

          Greg,

          Which book says that unicorns, talking nonhumans, and dragons exist?

          Which book says that people can turn into salt?

          November 12, 2013 at 9:46 pm |
        • Greg

          What's your point? Did you think the author, lacking scientific knowledge, was going to describe the chemical composition of the ashes? Or are you suggesting that the bible uses stories and parables as a means to teach? Are you suggesting that the Bible in some way has lost value because it contains a sentence that you find difficult to agree with?

          Your opinion of the Bible isn't going to change the fact that it is the most widely published work ever, and that something happened in about 30 AD that created a story that has spread throughout the world faster than anything the human race has witnessed.

          Go ahead and ignore the fact that people buy it, read it, and change because of it. That will help you to claim that people that have proof of God's work in their lives really don't have proof at all. Intellectual laziness, just like I said. Ignore the facts.

          November 12, 2013 at 10:13 pm |
        • Observer

          Greg

          "Are you suggesting that the Bible in some way has lost value because it contains a sentence that you find difficult to agree with?"

          A "SENTENCE"? Didn't you read what I said? Pitiful avoidance.

          Harry Potter has sold 400,000,000 books so that must be true too, right?

          November 12, 2013 at 10:30 pm |
        • Greg

          Right. How silly of me. Harry Potter stories have really influenced the world. You can cosplay with that stuff, right?

          I know, the Bible really doesn't change people in the same way that Harry Potter stories do.

          Harry Potter readers generally don't transform into completely different people. On the other hand, people that read the Bible (and those that know them) often describe complete transformations of character. People claim to arrive at huge realizations about themselves, others, and God, stop doing what they're doing, change their lives for the better, and choose to live in ways where they help others.

          COMPLETELY TRANSFORMED.

          Let's see Harry Potter do that.

          November 12, 2013 at 10:47 pm |
        • Observer

          Greg,

          Nothing has changed. Best selling books do not make TRUTH or PROOF.

          You HAVE: faith and belief
          You DON'T HAVE : any proof of God's existence

          November 12, 2013 at 11:12 pm |
        • Greg

          Observer,

          You HAVE: faith and belief
          You DON’T HAVE : any proof of that God does not exist

          An atheist therefore must exercise faith, the very thing you don't believe in.

          November 12, 2013 at 11:55 pm |
        • Tony

          False, Greg. You are trying to pull off equating faith and doubt. They are not the same thing. That is a seedy form of argument that you are attempting to pull off. Try to be stronger and grow some courage. Admit what you don't know.

          November 13, 2013 at 1:10 am |
        • Greg

          Tony said "False, Greg. You are trying to pull off equating faith and doubt. They are not the same."

          Wow, that's quite a load of crap. YOU are telling ME that I'm equating faith and doubt? There you go again, demonstrating your ignorance by posting to the whole world that you know something about me that you cannot know. But that isn't all...

          You kept going, just because you didn't dig your hole deep enough yet.

          "That is a seedy form of argument that you are attempting to pull off. Try to be stronger and grow some courage. Admit what you don’t know."

          Now we have an ad hominem attack.

          I'll use your own words Tony:

          "Try to be stronger and grow some courage. Admit what you don’t know."

          For example, if you were to follow your own advice you would retract your statements now. Will you? Do you see where you're making assumptions and not using facts here?

          November 13, 2013 at 1:58 am |
        • Tony

          Greg, my words stand and are well supported.

          Look again at your own posts, and do some reflection. It is well warranted.

          November 13, 2013 at 12:07 pm |
      • Mike

        God did it is the answer to the intellectually lazy, Greg. You have got things exactly bass akwards.

        November 12, 2013 at 6:21 pm |
        • Vic

          Actually, it is the other way around!

          The more the highly intellectual believer digs into science, the more he/she realizes that God did it. Otherwise, it is a retreat to conclude that God does not exist!

          November 12, 2013 at 6:30 pm |
        • Greg

          Exactly!

          Let's just list all of the researchers, educators, and inventors that believe in God!

          Einstein
          Darwin
          Edison

          Can anyone name a famous Atheist? I can only name one.

          Ernest Hemingway. Here's what happened to Ernest Hemingway:

          "He pushed two shells into the twelve-gauge Boss shotgun ...put the end of the barrel into his mouth, pulled the trigger and blew out his brains"

          There's your poster boy for Atheism kids. Now go play nice.

          November 12, 2013 at 6:50 pm |
        • Greg

          Wrong.

          I was an atheist for 45 years. I know all of the arguments.

          The problem with them is that they all stem from logic that starts with an Axiom. Do you happen to know about axioms and logic? If so, you know that the axioms are simply "declared" as true, without proof.

          So there is your faith. Your whole world of logic is based on a few man-made axioms that are a good starting place for discussion, but don't even know if they are true or not.

          November 12, 2013 at 6:35 pm |
        • Greg

          I'll also point out that I was an atheist for 40+ years. It's a shame that science attempts to compete with God, when in fact it exists because of God.

          Information and knowledge is important for everyone when making decisions. As an atheist, I narrowed my research and thinking because I sought out those that believed as I did (human nature, incidentally.) At some point, I had to look at myself and ask why I was arguing atheist views when I had never really learned much about God, and in fact did not even allow myself the freedom to learn more. That's called Pride. You won't learn much about pride in the theory of evolution, but you will learn about it if you learn about God.

          However, one must first be intellectually curious enough. Most atheists are not intellectually curious. Most that I know are simply stuck in a pattern of belief just as much as any home-bred, non-thinking Christian might be.

          Intellectually laziness is found among boastful and prideful people. Atheism and Theism have nothing to do with it.

          November 12, 2013 at 6:46 pm |
        • aguzman33

          Greg, have you read Eben Alexander's Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife? He's a well-known neurosurgeon at Boston Children's Hospital. Check it out, sounds like you might like it.

          November 12, 2013 at 7:06 pm |
        • Greg

          @aguzman – Thanks for the tip on Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife.

          One thing that helped me quite a lot was learning that a man started out to prove that God does not exist, and ended up finding quite the opposite. That seemed entertaining. That's how I came across C.S. Lewis, which started an HONEST intellectual pursuit about the question of Creation and Purpose.

          Until I started to become rigorously honest about the shortcomings of man-made systems of logic that rely on faith in axioms as opposed to faith in God, I could not possibly have become free. At some point in my learning, it became clear that it requires far more blind faith to be an atheist. At some point, armed with enough information, an atheist can only stay that way if they want to wave their PRIDE flag all the way to the grave.

          November 12, 2013 at 7:28 pm |
        • Albert Einstein

          It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

          Greg is a deceptive, conniving ass wipe.

          November 12, 2013 at 7:46 pm |
        • Greg

          Einstein, it seems you're having trouble remembering your own words:

          I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts; the rest are details.

          Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble.

          There is no logical way to the discovery of elemental laws. There is only the way of intuition, which is helped by a feeling for the order lying behind the appearance.

          What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of humility. This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism.

          We should take care not to make the intellect our god; it has, of course, powerful muscles, but no personality.

          Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the Gods.

          When the solution is simple, God is answering.

          God does not play dice with the universe.

          God is subtle but he is not malicious.

          Need I go on, "Einstein"?

          November 12, 2013 at 8:03 pm |
        • Greg

          Mr Einstein,

          As you pursue learning about the universe and God, you might want to brush up a little bit on your manners while you're at it.

          You have made a judgement here that is not relevant or helpful to your own argument: "Greg is a deceptive, conniving ass wipe." Not only does that diminish my view of you as a potentially intelligent person to reason with, I'm sure it has the same effect on others. While it won't hurt you in life to do this type of thing on the web, if you behave in this manner with others you are likely to find it hard to get anyone to listen to you.

          Regards,

          Greg

          November 12, 2013 at 8:07 pm |
        • Albert Einstein

          Pick and choose, pick and choose, Greg. You can't pass me off as a supporter of your crazy personal god scheme. Again:

          It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

          Greg is a deceptive, conniving ass wipe.

          November 12, 2013 at 8:06 pm |
        • Greg

          Albert,

          If you truly believe what you are saying here, that's fine. You practice your faith, where it's OK to insult people, and I'll practice mine, where I pray for your freedom from circular reasoning and enlightenment that comes when you realize that God is living within you, and around you.

          Respectfully,

          Greg

          November 12, 2013 at 8:24 pm |
        • Vic

          Well at least we have some form of consensus forming here on Greg's traits :-).

          November 12, 2013 at 8:18 pm |
        • Albert Einstein

          Pick and choose, pick and choose, Greg. You can't pass me off here as a supporter of your crazy personal god scheme. Again:

          It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

          Greg is a deceptive, conniving ass wipe.

          November 12, 2013 at 8:39 pm |
        • Colin

          Actually Greg, that is utter bullsh.it. The evidence for evolution is overwhelming. Not only do we have the fossil record, which is, of course, incomplete because only a small amount of dead organisms come down to us as fossils, but it is cooberated by DNA mapping.

          Now, as to your more fundamental theme, that an ordered Universe necessitates the existence of a creator, I ask you, is this creator's universe ordered? Because if so, using youer logic, it had to have a creato and so on ad infinitum, and if not, well, how can any organized system, be it a god or other sky-fairy, exist in a totally random relm?

          That's the problem with extrapolating a god form any kind of complexity, you then have to confront the origins of this god's complexity. Unless, of course, you choose to be a complete hypocrit and say "well, my god doesn't have to follow the very rules I used to extrapolate his existence."

          But, you wouldn't do that now would you?

          November 12, 2013 at 10:42 pm |
        • Greg

          Would atheist use man-made systems of logic based on unproven axioms that must be accepted based on faith?

          Yes.

          November 12, 2013 at 10:51 pm |
        • Colin

          Greg, Evolution is taught in every major university and college biology program in the World. Not 99% of them, but EVERY one. Universities with extensive evolutionary biology departments include Oxford University, Cambridge University and the Imperial College in England, the Ludwig-Maximilians-Universität in Germany, the École Normale Supérieure and École Polythecnique in France and Leiden University in the Netherlands and the Swiss Federal Insti.tute of Technology in Switzerland. This is just a sample. ALL university and colleges in Europe teach evolution as a fundamental component of biology.

          The number of universities and colleges in Europe with a creation science department: ZERO. The number of tenured or even paid professors who teach creation science at any of these universities or colleges: ZERO

          In the United States, the following Universities have extensive evolutionary biology departments staffed by thousands of the most gifted biologists in the World; Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Colombia, Duke, the Massachusetts Insti.tute of Technology, Brown, Stanford, Berkley, and the University of Chicago. These are just some of the more prestigious examples. Again, ALL university and colleges in the USA with tertiary level biology classes teach evolution as a fundamental component of biology.

          The number of universities and colleges in the United States with a creation science department: ZERO The number of tenured or even paid professors who teach creation science at any of these universities or colleges: ZERO

          In Australia and Asia, the following universities and colleges have extensive evolutionary biology departments manned by more of the most gifted biological scientists in the World; Monash University in Melbourne, The University of New South Wales, Kyoto University in Ja.pan, Peking University in China, Seoul University in Korea, the University of Singapore, National Taiwan University, The Australian National University, The University of Melbourne, and the University of Sydney.

          The number of universities and colleges in Australia and Asia with a creation science department: ZERO The number of tenured or even paid professors who teach creation science at any of these universities or colleges: ZERO

          The most prestigious scientific publications in the Western World generally accessible to the public include: The Journal of the American Medical Association, the New England Journal of Medicine, Scientific American, Science, New Scientist, Cosmos and Live Science.

          Every month, one or more of them publishes a peer reviewed article highlighting the latest developments in evolution. The amount of any creationist science articles published in ANY of these prestigious publications; ZERO.

          I could repeat the above exercise for the following disciplines, all of which would have to be turned on their heads to accommodate creation science – paleontology, archeology, geology, botany, marine biology, astronomy, medicine, cosmology and historical linguistics.

          Nearly every scientific society, representing hundreds of thousands of scientists, have issued statements rejecting intelligent design and a peti.tion supporting the teaching of evolutionary biology was endorsed by 72 US Nobel Prize winners.

          Number of creation science Nobel Prize winners: ZERO

          The American Association for the Advancement of Science, the world's largest general scientific society with more than 130,000 members and over 262 affiliated societies and academies of science including over 10 million individuals, has made several statements and issued several press releases in support of evolution.

          Number made n support of creation science: ZERO

          According to The International Federation of Biologists, there are more than 3 million biological scientists globally who rely on the 5 laws of Darwinian evolution for their jobs every single day.

          There appears to be three possible explanations for all this:

          (i) there is a worldwide conspiracy of universities, colleges and academic publications, including all their tens of thousands of professors, editors, reviewers, and support staff, to deny creation science;

          (ii) you, Greg, have a startling new piece of evidence that was right before our eyes that will turn accepted biological science and about 10 other sciences on their heads if ONLY people would listen to you, no doubt earning you a Nobel Prize and a place in history beside the likes of Darwin, Newton and Einstein; or

          (iii) you are a complete blowhard who has never studied one subject of university level biology, never been on an archeological dig, never studied a thing about paleontology, geology, astronomy, linguistics or archeology, but feel perfectly sure that you know more than the best biologists, archeologists, paleontologists, doctors, astronomers botanists and linguists in the World because your mommy and daddy taught you some comforting stories from Bronze Age Palestine as a child.

          I know which alternative my money is on, cowboy -:)

          November 12, 2013 at 11:04 pm |
        • Greg

          Please interview some of these scientists and researchers to learn how many of them believe in God.

          At the same time, understand that I agree with Evolution. It doesn't disprove God at all, though when I was an educated atheist for 40 years I came back to Evolution over and over again. It really hasn't changed. It's a great explanation of what we observe in this world, i.e., God's creation. It's a very ordered world, isn't it?

          November 12, 2013 at 11:14 pm |
        • Colin

          Once again, Greg, if you extrapolate a creator from order you then have to confront the order in the creator's realm, or either (i) assume his realm is not ordered; (ii) or break the very rule you used to extrapolate his existence. So, which is it? Of course, you could always retreat to mysticism and say soemthing like "I cannot know anything about God" but that would be a gutless cop out wouldn't it?

          November 12, 2013 at 11:25 pm |
        • Greg

          Once again, Greg, if you extrapolate a creator from order you then have to confront the order in the creator’s realm, or either (i) assume his realm is not ordered; (ii) or break the very rule you used to extrapolate his existence.

          One doesn't need to "extrapolate" to see evidence of existence, or creation, whichever it is.

          The question is whether the existence started with or without form. Clearly, data suggests that the universe came pre-packaged with form and a way of changing with predictable, intelligent laws of nature.

          Now, you may believe this intelligence came from nowhere; that this existence somehow acquired order after it was created. Please feel free to explain how that works if that's what you believe.

          Now if you have noticed, as many researchers and scientists have, that there is order in the universe, then you might ask the question "where did it come from?" If order and natural law was there from the beginning, is it reasonable to assume that this order and law came from NOTHING?

          November 12, 2013 at 11:39 pm |
        • Tony

          Greg, still the best you can do seems to boil down to an argument from ignorance. Again, the courageous answer from you should be that you don't know, not "god did it". The latter is a wimping out, nothing more. Grow some courage already.

          November 13, 2013 at 1:08 am |
        • Greg

          Tony,

          I'm finding your point about "arguing from ignorance" to be lacking any substance. My knowledge and experience in engineering, science, life, and yes – intellectual curiosity about the existence of God – all of these have been laid out here for you to see. These are not ignorant statements.

          Your comments, on the other hand, do not provide any substance whatsoever, and appear to be something akin to ad hominem attacks.

          So do us a favor, and prove that God does not exist.

          Of course you can't, unless you want to be lazy like most of the other atheists that simply say "It's not my burden to prove".

          Yes, absolutely, it is. Prove your case. I have proven mine.

          November 13, 2013 at 1:45 am |
        • Observer

          Greg,

          Even if it turned out that intelligent design is right, it still DOES NOT PROVE that God exists.There are an infinite number of other possibilities.

          As always, you and all believers have failed to PROVE God exists. Faith and wishful thinking are not PROOF.

          November 13, 2013 at 2:05 am |
        • Greg

          Infinite possibilities? Have you not opened your eyes?

          You were born as a unique individual. Do you think that's an accident? The thread of DNA that weaves through the life on this planet is NOT open to infinite possibilities. DNA carries a very specific set of instructions to create life. The temperature on earth is NOT conducive to infinite possibilities. The series of events following the theorized Big Bang were not at all random, and in fact worked in a way that you and I are now online debating God.

          There are not multiple ways that this reality came to be. There is ONE WAY we got here, ONE FACTUAL WAY.

          You said "As always, you non-believers can't prove that God doesn't exist."

          In fact, on this very thread we have people that are knowledgeable about scientific method and axiomatic logic, and they agree that you cannot use logic to prove ANYTHING doesn't exist. So if an atheist cannot use logic or observations to disprove God, then why do atheists believe (have faith in) an idea they cannot even prove?

          Again, the atheist believes there is no deity. They cannot have it both ways. Either there are no deities, and they have proof, or there is no proof, and deities may exist.

          You are absolutely correct. Ass you said "Faith and wishful thinking are not proof." And that is EXACTLY why atheists are an easy target. They have absolute faith that God does not exist, yet they have no proof whatsoever.

          November 13, 2013 at 2:40 am |
        • Tony

          Greg, do the world a favor and read up on argument from ignorance. Your starting point in your claims of your god is very similar to those of the irreducible complexity crowd, and apart from being very clearly argument from ignorance, it is a lazy, cowardly one. When you don't know for sure (and that is now so clearly the case), show some guts and admit it.

          "God did it" in this case is the cowardly way out. We can, however, go one step with certainty, and say correctly that based on the characteristics stated in the Christian bible and other reasons, the initial cause is not the claimed Christian god.

          November 13, 2013 at 12:14 pm |
        • Greg

          Your confusing the Christian God, the one Creator God (shared by some other religions) with religion. Belief in a book is not the same as belief in God.

          Now you may choose to take the lazy way out, claim the God does not exist. That's what atheists do. An atheist believes there is no God when they have absolutely no proof.

          Atheists are intellectually lazy. They go back to some rules of axiomatic logic developed in Greece, and can't seem to get in touch with the fact that they cannot prove what they believe.

          November 13, 2013 at 1:12 pm |
        • Tony

          No, Greg, my point about your use of argument from ignorance is independent of the specific Christian myths, and my point stands. Your starting point in your claims of your god is very similar to those of the irreducible complexity crowd. It is simply argument from ignorance, and it can be rejected on that basis. "God did it" in this case is the cowardly way out, and it is not a supportable argument.

          November 13, 2013 at 2:39 pm |
        • 116

          @Collin
          you talk about extrapolation and God, is not evolution one big extrapolation of DNA sequences and carbon darting or whatever they use now to predict how old it is? God Is the Answer, he made evolution, do you know how complex our bodies are, to achieve one strand of DNA randomly would have the same odds of drawing a spade strait-flush in order four-hundred times,

          November 14, 2013 at 1:25 pm |
        • Perry

          @116, nope, that's inapplicable. Look up the anthropic priniciple, but basically, probability is irrelevant when looking from the view of an observer who is looking from what has already happened.

          November 15, 2013 at 2:14 pm |
      • HotAirAce

        Greg, please present actual evidence for your or any god. Not a blizzard of mumbo jumbo words, actual evidence.

        November 12, 2013 at 7:24 pm |
        • Troll Spotter

          Here he is again. I can spot these Trolls big time.

          November 12, 2013 at 7:27 pm |
        • Greg

          While you're at it, please use scientific method to prove the the validity of the Theory of Evolution.

          Scientific method requires direct observation. Please cite any observations that have ever been made that demonstrate the evolution of species from one kind to another kind. Prove the theory of evolution first. That should be easy, right?

          November 12, 2013 at 7:37 pm |
        • Troll Spotter

          HAC, Please present there is no proof of God.

          November 12, 2013 at 7:29 pm |
        • Troll Spotter

          Oh, whats that? You can't? OMFG!!!!! I thought your smart ass knew it all. I am so disappointed in you. Dvck…. Get a life PUNK.

          November 12, 2013 at 7:33 pm |
        • Greg

          Well aren't you special? You're telling me to "get a life" and you're out trolling?

          I pray for you. You seem to be one that likes to stir up dissention. Not helpful to you or anyone.

          November 12, 2013 at 7:43 pm |
        • Greg

          Better idea. You prove God doesn't exist. Troll.

          November 12, 2013 at 7:34 pm |
        • HotAirAce

          I don't claim there are no gods. I believe there is no actual evidence for any gods, that the probability of there being any gods is so low that it is virtually zero, and therefore there is no reason to life as if there are any gods. No believer has ever provided any actual evidence for their god, even after 2,000+ years of claiming that gods exist – none, zip, nada, zero. If I'm wrong, it should be trivial to produce some actual evidence – go ahead, quit hurling labels and start producing evidence.

          November 12, 2013 at 7:37 pm |
        • Greg

          I agree with you that there aren't multiple Gods. There is only one God the Creator.

          Worshipping people or idols is not the same as worshipping God the Creator.

          So you're on the right track. Keep learning.

          November 12, 2013 at 7:57 pm |
        • Troll Spotter

          Yeah you F–cking do! Every post i have read from you indicates that you know it F–cking all you twerp. Don't try to recant now

          November 12, 2013 at 7:41 pm |
        • Troll Spotter

          Has any Atheist Prooved that there isn't?

          November 12, 2013 at 7:45 pm |
        • Greg

          I was an atheist for 40+ years, and became intellectually honest and interested enough in Creation and Purpose that I approached it like any good engineer would – using facts and extensive research.

          I can tell you to open your eyes and see, but you are blind. Creation is all around you. The Creation proves the Creator.

          God is proven in the hearts of the legions that have turned to God, and witnessed a change in themselves.

          There's your proof. Atheists can now please hurry to respond with all of the things I've told believers in my life while I was an Atheist. I understand you don't know much about God, so I really don't care much about what you have to say unless it is intellectually honest and doesn't rely on a man-made system of logic and axioms as proof God does not exist.

          November 12, 2013 at 7:54 pm |
        • HotAirAce

          There is no need for me personally to prove the Theory of Evolution. There is a huge body of scientific work, all according to the scientific method, that has established its validity. But if you are looking for a list of books to read, I recommend anything by Dawkins.

          I see the believers are chirping in with mumbo jumbo but no actual evidence – 'cause apparently they don't have any.

          And Re: atheists proving your or any god does not exist, it is clear you need to take a course in logic, but as a start, believers are the ones claiming gods exist, therefore the onus is on them to "put up or shut up" and it is impossible to prove that something does not exist. There might be a being worthy of being called a god (although I hope it would not be a vindictive pri.ck like the christian god) somewhere in the universe, so I do not rule out that possibility – I merely put the probability at virtually zero based on no actual evidence to date.

          November 12, 2013 at 8:05 pm |
        • Greg

          So Hot Air, you claim to be a real smart guy, impolite but intelligent. You know about Charles Dawkins, so you're part of the Athiest club as I have in the past. He's amusing, that's for sure.

          Anyway, in order for a theory to be proven as fact, you obviously know what is required according to scientific method.

          Are you familiar with scientific method, or not?

          November 12, 2013 at 8:15 pm |
        • Greg

          Also, this man-made construct of logic that you use that allows you to claim that you do not need to prove God does not exist is a cop-out. Axiomatically, God cannot exist.

          Talk about intellectual laziness....

          November 12, 2013 at 8:17 pm |
        • Tony

          Greg careful you are on shaky ground logically speaking. I just saw you tread over the border into argument from ignorance. Immigration can be a beotch in some domains.

          November 12, 2013 at 8:23 pm |
        • Greg

          Not at all. I am not on shaky ground whatsoever. There would be no people to create man-made logic systems if the universe did not evolve in a very specific way. Every scientist sees the order in the universe.

          Open your eyes, and see.

          November 12, 2013 at 8:36 pm |
        • HotAirAce

          Yes, I believe I do understand the scientific method. And yes I do believe there is overwhelming evidence for evolution. Your anti-evolution argument isn't with me. You should be taking on scientists such as Dawkins. Have you written a scholarly article debunking evolution? Can you point to a single article in a reputable scientific journal that successfully concludes with "some god did it"? Unless you can debunk evolution using the scientific method or prove a massive conspiracy, you are just blathering on to support your other unsupported beliefs.

          November 12, 2013 at 8:25 pm |
        • Greg

          If you are familiar with scientific method, then can you please tell us, in your words, what the requirements are for a theory to be proven? You haven't proven your knowledge yet – only claimed that you have it.

          I'll give you clue.

          "Observation"

          November 12, 2013 at 8:37 pm |
        • Shari

          Greg, why don't you tell us more about this "Charles Dawkins" that you know so much about?

          You idiot.

          November 12, 2013 at 8:26 pm |
        • Greg

          Charles Darwin, Richard Dawkins. My bad.

          Honestly, is that the best you can do is cherry pick this item?

          Still, maybe you could help out a few of the Atheists here that seem to be challenged to explain what scientific method requires to validate a theory as proven true. Thanks.

          November 12, 2013 at 8:44 pm |
        • Ted

          Ouch! Greg gets totally PWNED by Shari. Red cheeks or what! Ouchies!

          November 12, 2013 at 8:30 pm |
        • Greg

          Far from it Ted, sorry for your Pride here.

          You cannot even make a simple, tiny, flea. You can open your eyes just as easily as I can. What you see around you is a creation of some kind. It is ordered, as all scientists know.

          So you can boast that you possess wisdom, and that your belief in man-made axiomatic logic answers all questions. Your man-made construct doesn't prove or disprove God. So what good is your construct?

          None. You rely on faith. You just put faith in logic and your own intellect, with absolutely no proof that you are right.

          November 12, 2013 at 8:50 pm |
        • HotAirAce

          Greg, re: "Axiomatically, God cannot exist." I believe you are correct.m If you want others to believe you are going to have to make your case by presenting some actual evidence.

          November 12, 2013 at 8:40 pm |
        • Greg

          You can't prove God doesn't exist, so you need to adjust your axioms and tell us how your logic disproves God.

          Can you make a flea? If you can make a flea, then you will begin to show me proof that there is a Creator God.

          In the meantime, I'll rest my case and proof here: Creation proves the Creator.

          You may be blind to it. Perhaps you will someday see.

          November 12, 2013 at 8:56 pm |
        • Tony

          Greg, you've done it again. That is Argument from Ignorance, pretty much. When you can't explain something, you can't claim "my god did it" and have an acceptable, valid case.

          The courageous statement, to me, anyway, is simply "We don't know.", but going a step further, the best evidence and reasoning that I can see shows clearly that the Christian god legend is certainly not the correct one. It is just too far from observable reality, and has too many errors and inconsistencies across all its too-many versions.

          November 12, 2013 at 8:56 pm |
        • Fallacy Spotting 101

          Post by 'Greg' contains an instance of the Ignoratio Elenchi fallacy.

          http://fallacyfiles.org/glossary.html

          November 12, 2013 at 9:01 pm |
        • Greg

          Please explain so I can help you understand better.

          November 12, 2013 at 9:24 pm |
        • HotAirAce

          And there goes another believer running away because they cannot present a single bit of actual evidence for their delusions. . .

          November 12, 2013 at 9:05 pm |
        • Greg

          Hot Air,

          You have run away, not me. You want proof that God exists. I have told you it's all around you.

          Don't run away. Stick with me. Look at all there is known about the universe. Let's call that "creation" so you get what "creation" means. It's here. The Big Bang theory (which isn't proven) is a good one – let's use it.

          I have absolutely no proof, and you don't either, to say whether God created the Big Bang or it just happened. But I can definitely tell you some things about how it did NOT happen. No HUMAN made this, and yet, here we are, discussing our very existence.

          You will also undoubtedly ignore the fact that many people that have come to believe in God and ultimately accept Christ as their saviour quite literally change. Routinely, for thousands of years, people come to learn about Christ, stop doing things that are destructive to themselves and others, and change for the better. The evidence goes even further, because there are witnesses of this.

          Back to my point about scientific method, have you made an progress on finding out what is required to prove a theory?

          Hint: Observation is involved.

          Cheers.

          November 12, 2013 at 9:23 pm |
        • Greg

          Don't run away yet. I brought some answers for you about scientific method:

          The scientific method requires observations of nature to formulate and test hypotheses.[1] It consists of these steps:[2][3]

          Asking a question about a natural phenomenon
          Making observations of the phenomenon
          Hypothesizing an explanation for the phenomenon
          Predicting a logical consequence of the hypothesis
          Testing the hypothesis by an experiment, an observational study, or a field study
          Creating a conclusion with data gathered in the experiment, or forming a revised/new hypothesis and repeating the process

          Observations play a role in the second and fifth steps of the scientific method.

          Now, armed with the information that observation is critical to proof in scientific method, please explain your proof of the Theory of Evolution. Is it, or is it not proven? Yes or no?

          November 12, 2013 at 9:42 pm |
        • Observer

          Greg,

          You still have offered ZERO proof that God exists. There's an infinite number of possibilities for how the world was created and God is JUST ONE.

          November 12, 2013 at 9:37 pm |
        • Greg

          "There’s an infinite number of possibilities for how the world was created"

          No there aren't. There is ONE way that the world was created. Think!

          You used the right term though – created.

          November 12, 2013 at 9:44 pm |
        • Kathryn

          Greg seems to have a bad case of lastworditis, along with not a shred of valid evidence.

          Greg, it's same old same old for your "evidence" that I see in looking through this thread so far. What you present is too vague to be valid, distinguishing evidence for your particular claims of god because there are many other potential explanations for the exact same observables. And yes, in my case, I can lay some claim to knowing the scientific method, having received a Presidential award for my efforts in using it.

          November 12, 2013 at 9:42 pm |
        • Greg

          Great! You know about scientific method.

          Now, please describe the observable evidence supporting the Theory of Evolution.

          If you prefer, please describe why scientific method (and the standard of proof called observation) is woefully unable to prove or disprove the theory. In so doing, you might begin to see where scientific method comes up short.

          As to your report that I am not providing any proof whatsoever, that is a false claim. I have already informed you that the proof of the Creator is the Creation. If you disagree with my proof, then by all means prove to me that the Creation disproves the Creator.

          November 12, 2013 at 10:00 pm |
        • Observer

          Greg

          "Greg

          "No there aren't. There is ONE way that the world was created. Think!"

          You are the one who needs to THINK.

          For PROOF you have: zilch. Zip. Nada. Nill. Nothing. Zero.

          Try again.

          No there aren't. There is ONE way that the world was created. Think!

          November 12, 2013 at 10:00 pm |
        • Greg

          Your inability to accept proof does show, I've seen that.

          Again, we have observable scientific data that supports an ordered universe, not a random one. Again, we have people that can attest to observable and proven changes in themselves. Denying these facts doesn't help to build your case, which you have still not made.

          What is your proof that there is no Creator God? Zip. Nada. Zilch.

          Again, I HAVE proof. You just deny it.

          November 12, 2013 at 10:20 pm |
        • HotAirAce

          I am not a world-class scientist but accept what the National Academy of Sciences has to say about evolution:

          http://www.nas.edu/evolution/TheoryOrFact.html

          If you do not agree with them, I'm sure they'd like to understand where they've gone wrong. I look forward to seeing your successful debunking of evolution and correction of the NAS. I won't be holding my breath waiting for your submission to them.

          November 12, 2013 at 10:01 pm |
        • Greg

          Thank you for your link to the article. Very on target.

          I pointed out Evolution as a theory because so many atheists (including myself when I was one) use this theory to debunk God, when in fact evolution and creation can most definitely coexist. One need only to explore the history of the universe to see all of the order in it. It's everywhere.

          The time may indeed come when we have observable proof of the evolution of species along the lines of what Darwin posed. However, we do not have ANY observable data of one kind of creature becoming another kind. Point to the Stickleback fish, and what you have is an adaptation – tiny changes – and a SUDDEN appearance of a new species.

          The fossil record most definitely shows that there have been many species, that suddenly come and go. Suddenly. In fact, the very nature of species is that they are distinct from other species. So, using scientific method and observation, how can you prove that apes became humans, for example?

          The FACT is, we have no observable data whatsoever that species "evolve" anything but suddenly.

          Start asking some of these smart biologists to give you just one example of – just one – of observed evolution of species with a change of kind. Watch them stutter and make things up.

          November 12, 2013 at 10:34 pm |
        • Observer

          Start asking some of these smart biologists to give you just one example of – just one – of proof of the EXISTENCE OF GOD. Watch them stutter and make things up.

          November 12, 2013 at 10:42 pm |
        • Greg

          I know several biologists that believe in God. What's your point?

          November 12, 2013 at 10:52 pm |
        • ME II

          @Greg,
          First, evolution does not disprove god(s).

          Second, science does not deal in "proof". Additionally, scientific theories don't get "proven", they are well substantiated explanations of how the universe works.

          Third, regardless of the existence of god(s), there is plenty of evidence to support evolution.
          Some highlights include:
          Fossils like Tiktaalik, Ambulocetus, Archeoptyrx, etc.
          biochemistry like Cytochrome-c
          biogeography like marsupials
          genetics like Human Chromosome 2, ERVs, etc
          and observational experiments like Lenski's long term e.coli experiment

          Fourth, the fact that people change after becoming believers a) doesn't indicate anything about the existence of God, just that people change, b) doesn't cover the people who have changed for the worse, and c) is purely anecdotal and does consti.tute evidence.

          November 12, 2013 at 10:46 pm |
        • Greg

          100% agreement with you up until this point:

          Fourth, the fact that people change after becoming believers a) doesn’t indicate anything about the existence of God, just that people change, b) doesn’t cover the people who have changed for the worse, and c) is purely anecdotal and does consti.tute evidence.

          Why do you keep dismissing the factual experiences and observations that people have? Do you have a problem with facts being used in a discussion about what is true?

          November 12, 2013 at 11:00 pm |
        • Colin

          Actually Greg, that is utter bullsh.it. The evidence for evolution is overwhelming. Not only do we have the fossil record, which is, of course, incomplete because only a small amount of dead organisms come down to us as fossils, but it is cooberated by DNA mapping.

          Now, as to your more fundamental theme, that an ordered Universe necessitates the existence of a creator, I ask you, is this creator's universe ordered? Because if so, using your logic, it had to have a creator and so on ad infinitum, and if not, well, how can any organized system, be it a god or other sky-fairy, exist in a totally random realm?

          That's the problem with extrapolating a god form any kind of complexity, you then have to confront the origins of this god's complexity. Unless, of course, you choose to be a complete hypocrite and say "well, my god doesn't have to follow the very rules I used to extrapolate his existence."

          But, you wouldn't do that now would you?

          November 12, 2013 at 10:46 pm |
        • ME II

          * does NOT consti.tute evidence.

          November 12, 2013 at 10:48 pm |
        • Tom, Tom, the Other One

          Evolution as a theory is beginning to gather the same sort of support as thermodynamics. Through statistical mechanics, the various laws of thermodynamics are such that either they are true or mathematics is fundamentally flawed. Evolution has a similar mathematical basis such that if it is not true, we must wonder why not.

          November 12, 2013 at 10:55 pm |
        • Greg

          Evolution has no bearing whatsoever on the existence of God or not. Evolution is simply one of many intelligent mechanisms that we can observe in nature, i.e., God's Creation. There is order to it. It is not random.

          November 12, 2013 at 11:08 pm |
        • Commenter

          Greg,
          "You used the right term though – created."

          That's the problem. When you call it "creation" you have pre-loaded the premise. Of course a "creation" has a "creator".

          It's a bit more words to call it : "That which exists", but it's more acceptable. We don't know what we don't know; and it's quite presumptuous of you to say that you do (or that ancient Israelites knew anything special either, if you hang any of your belief on what they said).

          November 12, 2013 at 11:06 pm |
        • Greg

          Thanks for that segway, I couldn't have done that better myself.

          It’s a bit more words to call it : “That which exists”, but it’s more acceptable. We don’t know what we don’t know; and it’s quite presumptuous of you to say that you do (or that ancient Israelites knew anything special either, if you hang any of your belief on what they said).

          So you're on record saying "We don't know what we don't know".

          So how does an atheist know that God does not exist? Please explain.

          November 12, 2013 at 11:11 pm |
        • Greg

          That’s the problem. When you call it “that which exists” you have pre-loaded the premise. Of course a “that which exists” only requires that it actually exists. That pre-loaded premise of existence really doesn't care how it got there, does it?

          November 12, 2013 at 11:17 pm |
        • ME II

          @Greg,
          "Why do you keep dismissing the factual experiences and observations that people have? Do you have a problem with facts being used in a discussion about what is true?"

          1) anecdotes are not evidence..
          2) Although you haven't provided actual examples, the experiences and "observations" a often subjective and ultimately don't say anything about the existence of god(s). Just because people change, doesn't mean God exists.
          3) I have no problem with facts, if they are pertinent to the question as hand.

          November 12, 2013 at 11:14 pm |
        • Greg

          Are you suggesting that subjective experience is not real?

          November 12, 2013 at 11:53 pm |
        • Colin

          "So how does an atheist know that God does not exist? Please explain."

          the same way we know fiaries don't exist. In the complete absence of evidence for the external existence of beings created in literature, one can safely assume they exist only in that literature, even if it happens to be late Bronze Age and/or Greco-Roman Jewish literature.

          November 12, 2013 at 11:17 pm |
        • Greg

          Right, go back to the intellectually lazy approach that atheists are famous for. I used to do it too, so I get it.

          God doesn't exist because fairies aren't real.

          Go back to my earlier post, and respond to the issue of existence versus creation, and use your brain to come up with an intelligent response. This one you just sent is lazy crap.

          November 12, 2013 at 11:51 pm |
        • ME II

          @Greg,
          Evolution is not an "intelligent mechanism". You are correct that it is not random, but it is not a directed or goal oriented process, i.e. there is no ideal organism that the process is trying to evolve to.

          As to Atheism, many Atheists view Atheism as simply a lack of belief in god(s), not as a belief that there are no gods.

          November 12, 2013 at 11:18 pm |
        • Greg

          Come on. An atheist doesn't believe in deities.

          Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist.

          November 12, 2013 at 11:43 pm |
        • Commenter

          Greg,

          I don't believe that any of the gods dreamed up by humans thus far exist, especially the ones which severely punish people for not picking up their ambiguous "cues". Some "first cause or causes" perhaps **could** exist somewhere, sometime, in as yet undiscovered dimensions or whatever. I don't know.

          November 12, 2013 at 11:28 pm |
        • redzoa

          In addition to ME II's points, I would offer that the "sudden" appearance of species in the fossil record is relative to geologic time, i.e. the nodes of punctuated equilibrium are tens of thousands of years. I'd also add that the "observational" evidence for common ancestry between humans and apes is present in the fossil record, i.e. the temporally/morphologically overlapping forms of our various hominid and pre-homind ancestors (not to mention the phylogenetic analyses demonstrating these relationships). "Observational" does not require direct real time observation of some natural phenomena, e.g. a genetic paternity test can reliable indicate who the parents of a child are and there is simply no requirement that one had to have directly observed the act of conception for the science to be valid. We have observed speciation events which is effectively what we should observe within the relatively limited time scales in which we've been searching. To suggest that the changes leading to speciation events are valid, but that higher taxonomic changes (clearly observable in the fossil record) are somehow impossible is akin to arguing that inches exist, but that they can't possible add up to miles.

          November 13, 2013 at 12:13 am |
        • Greg

          To suggest that the changes leading to speciation events are valid, but that higher taxonomic changes (clearly observable in the fossil record) are somehow impossible is akin to arguing that inches exist, but that they can’t possible add up to miles.

          Exactly correct. That's why we we wouldn't suggest that higher taxonomic changes are impossible. We just haven't ever seen taxonomic changes occur, so we place faith in a theory and research that suggests these things may be possible.

          Faith. There it is again.

          November 13, 2013 at 12:21 am |
        • ME II

          @Greg
          "Are you suggesting that subjective experience is not real?"

          I assume this was directed at me. Subjective experience is real to the subject I suspect, but it may have nothing to do with what most would consider objective reality.
          Basically, just because someone believes that they "feel the presence" of God, does not mean that it is true, else we would need to consider every other "feeling" as evidence as well – ghosts, spirits, aliens, past lives, astral projection, Vishnu, Thetans, Chi, etc.

          November 13, 2013 at 12:23 am |
        • HotAirAce

          Greg is not good at reading for comprehension. . .

          We don't believe gods don't exist because fairies don't exist. We don't believe gods and fairies exist because there is the same amount and quality of evidence for each. That is, none.

          November 13, 2013 at 12:26 am |
        • Greg

          HotAirAce, your continued comparison of fairies with the Creator God shows that your comprehension is very limited, and that you do not understand the difference of what is required to be a Fairy vs. what is required to build a universe.

          Factually, the universe exists, don't you agree?

          November 13, 2013 at 1:15 am |
        • ME II

          @Greg,
          Not faith, evidence.
          Human Chromosome 2 and ERVs are two examples of direct evidence that organisms evolve from very different ancestors.

          November 13, 2013 at 12:26 am |
        • Greg

          "Not faith, evidence.
          Human Chromosome 2 and ERVs are two examples of direct evidence that organisms evolve from very different ancestors."

          So you have some very nice evidence. You know, I went outside today, and I found evidence of weather. Ho hum.

          What does your evidence say about the existence of God (or not) than my evidence?

          About all we can conclude from this evidence is that there is a set of natural laws and order that is vividly real.

          November 13, 2013 at 2:07 am |
        • ME II

          @Greg,
          Your wikipedia quote is basically what I said.

          "Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist."

          November 13, 2013 at 12:30 am |
        • redzoa

          "Exactly correct. That's why we we wouldn't suggest that higher taxonomic changes are impossible. We just haven't ever seen taxonomic changes occur, so we place faith in a theory and research that suggests these things may be possible.

          Faith. There it is again."

          The difference between the theist's "faith" and the "faith" in scientific theory is that the latter is actually supported by observable empirical physical evidence, e.g. the progressive order of the fossil record replete with intermediate/transitional forms. Again, science does not require real time direct observation of some phenomenon for the methods of science to be applicable. Furthermore, the "faith" in scientific theories is based on validated predictions and applications, i.e. empirical physical evidence. The "faith" of theists can claim no similar empirical physical evidence in support.

          November 13, 2013 at 12:38 am |
        • Greg

          The difference between the theist’s “faith” and the “faith” in scientific theory is that the latter is actually supported by observable empirical physical evidence, e.g. the progressive order of the fossil record replete with intermediate/transitional forms. Again, science does not require real time direct observation of some phenomenon for the methods of science to be applicable. Furthermore, the “faith” in scientific theories is based on validated predictions and applications, i.e. empirical physical evidence. The “faith” of theists can claim no similar empirical physical evidence in support.

          To make sure you're on the same page here, atheists and theists all have faith in something. Atheists can't prove what they believe, that God does not exist. Theists cannot prove what they believe, which is that a God (or Gods) exist.

          Any "theist" that believes an idol can create a universe is obviously misguided as much or more than the atheist that blindly trusts man-made logic using axioms that place conditions on God that do not exist. They are man-made constructs of logic.

          I can tell you to open your eyes, and see Creation – the universe as it exists.

          So lets start with some observable facts. You and I exist, and we're communicating online. By extrapolation and science, we believe we're here after a big bang, some very ordered expansion of the universe, ordered arrangement of galaxies and planets, atoms and molecules that behave according to observable laws of nature. Your DNA and my DNA are nearly identical – no more than 3% difference. The DNA record is now showing that there may were two original humans with DNA from which all others are descended. We learned to communicate, reason, and debate.

          With all of your knowledge and extrapolation abilities, please explain how the Big Bang occurred, why there is order in the universe, and why you are able to subjectively experience this discussion. Can you explain why subjective experience exists? You seem to believe it isn't very important, so I'd like to know.

          November 13, 2013 at 1:35 am |
        • HotAirAce

          Greg, you need to actually read for comprehension and quit imagining what I wrote. I mentioned fairies in exactly one (prior) post and that was in response to your faulty understanding of what someone else said.

          November 13, 2013 at 1:28 am |
        • Greg

          Hot Air, let's talk about reading comprehension a little bit then.

          Have you been asked, yes or no, to prove that God does not exist? The answer is yes.

          Have you done so? No.

          Now this could be a reading comprehension issue, or it could be that you're just a troll (already noted). So if you're going to come back to me with this kind of statement, then I insist you start replying to my comments using your reading comprehension.

          State your case, your proof, that God does not exist.

          Go.

          November 13, 2013 at 1:49 am |
        • HotAirAce

          Greg, yet again you demonstrate reading problems. I answered your question at about 8 pm. As I did not claim that your god does not exist, and in fact have allowed that one or gods may exist, it would be contradictory for me to have also claimed that I can prove no gods exist. You created the "no gods exist" strawman so you deal with it.

          November 13, 2013 at 1:59 am |
        • Greg

          Here is what you said:

          "... it is clear you need to take a course in logic, but as a start, believers are the ones claiming gods exist, therefore the onus is on them to “put up or shut up” and it is impossible to prove that something does not exist."

          Again, if it is impossible to "prove the something does not exist", then what is it that causes atheists to believe (have faith in) their position that God(s) do not exist? It's contradictory.

          As for the course in logic and burden of proof, I do not agree with your man-made construct for logic entirely, because it relies on axioms that one must place faith in (i.e., believe without evidence of of truth).

          The atheist carries the burden to prove their point, just as much as a theist does. So let them prove their point, and let the prove it using scientific method and logic.

          Let's hear it from an Atheist – prove your point using your own logic.

          The Atheist holds the "straw man" argument here, not me.

          November 13, 2013 at 2:22 am |
        • Joey

          Evolution doesn't debunk god, but it does debunk the Christian god, at least as far as it is described in the Bible. It also debunks Adam and Eve, which pretty much destroys the rest the Bible. However, there could be a different god out there that is responsible for evolution, but it doesn't seem likely.

          November 13, 2013 at 12:50 pm |
        • Greg

          The Christian God is the same God as the Jewish God, and that God is the Creator God.

          As for the Bible, a book written by many people over hundreds of years that uses stories, poems, allegories, accountings of generations and events, etc. Were you under the mistaken impression that the Bible does not include stories?

          November 13, 2013 at 1:01 pm |
        • Sue

          Greg, what is your basis for being certain of the existence of the Christian god in particular?

          I think that is the specific god that you are claiming existence of, and as for me, I am certain for a specific set of reasons that the Christian god in particular does not exist. My reasons include, among others, the contradictory claimed characteristics, and a pretty sketchy and clearly error-laden primary description of god and events (the bible) that does not match up well (to say the least) with readily observable realities.

          November 13, 2013 at 12:55 pm |
        • Joey

          Well Greg I decided the Christian god doesn't exist after reading arguments such as yours which provide no actual evidence for the existence of god. So until a believer can prove to me that god exists I will continue to live my life as if god does not exist.

          November 13, 2013 at 1:08 pm |
        • ME II

          @Greg,

          You said:
          "We just haven't ever seen taxonomic changes occur, so we place faith in a theory and research that suggests these things may be possible. Faith. There it is again."

          I replied:
          "Not faith, evidence. Human Chromosome 2 and ERVs..."

          You replied:
          "So you have some very nice evidence. You know, I went outside today, and I found evidence of weather. Ho hum.
          What does your evidence say about the existence of God (or not) than my evidence?"

          U say:
          It says nothing about the existence of god(s), but it does refute your claim that accepting "taxonomic changes" through evolution as true is based on faith.

          It's not faith, it's evidence.

          November 13, 2013 at 3:08 pm |
        • ME II

          "U say:"
          should be
          "I say:"

          November 13, 2013 at 3:09 pm |
        • a reasonable atheist

          Regarding understanding of the scientific method, I hold a PhD in a physical science discipline. Yes, I understand the scientific method.

          Viral evolution validates the theory of evolution nicely. The reproductive time scales and mutation rates of viruses allow for much faster observations to be made than for relatively slow reproduction and mutation rates of creatures like mammals. I say validates because as one who purports to have a deep understanding of the scientific method, you should know that scientific theories are rarely proven, and scientists deal in evidence rather than "proof." Several other branches of study provide further corroboration. Asking for "proof" of a scientific theory is infantile and belies a poor understanding of the scientific method.

          Further, your request for proof/validation of the theory of evolution is completely unrelated to the existence of god(s). While scientific observation invalidates claims made in many so-called sacred texts that form the basis for various religions, the theory itself has nothing to do with a supposition regarding the existence of god(s). Thus far, this supposition is baseless. Your reduced supposition that our universe was created is also baseless.

          You keep harping on order, but, as a scientist, I only see unstable equilibrium being achieved in various systems. Any notion of order is inferred by the observer's bias.

          November 13, 2013 at 5:53 pm |
    • Sara

      "Obviously, most commenters here who don't believe in God are partial against ONLY Christianity."

      If you find yourself making a point beginning with the word "obviously" you should take that as strong evidence you are about to make an ass of yourself. In most cases it translates as "I have no evidence here so I'll pretend this could not but be true and hope I get away with it..."

      November 12, 2013 at 7:39 pm |
    • Khan

      Vic / Greg / Einstein,
      I am a muslim educated in a catholic missionary school. Please read the Einstein's Theory of Relativity (original Einstein) where he proves (also proven from experiments) that Time began with Big Bang. Before, was Eternity, no beginning and no end and no creation and no births. This is what the God in Bible has said more than 3000 years ago and confirmed in Koran that I am ALPHA & OMEGA.
      What more proof do you require of God's existence? How can you justify Einstein's (original & not the cop;y here) mind? Where did he get this idea if he was an evoluted biological being? You cannot have both ways – a biological being like a human should not have ' out of this world ' ideas in his mind.

      November 21, 2013 at 10:04 am |
  3. WOT

    God's word tells where he was- read it.

    November 12, 2013 at 5:25 pm |
  4. Alias

    I am still an atheist, and there are a LOT of good reasons to think the bible is fiction. Lots of them.
    However, natural disasters do not prove anything. Why do you people keep trying to argue that there cannot be a god because he would not let us suffer if he existed? Where is the logic in that?
    If the god of the bible were true, then no amount of pain or suffering in this life would matter. What difference does a few decades of joy or pain matter compared to bliss or torture for ever?
    Calling christians and their god names serves no purpose, other than maybe making small minded people feel superior.

    November 12, 2013 at 5:18 pm |
    • lol??

      Shaggy dog stories are gettin' popular.

      November 12, 2013 at 5:23 pm |
      • BlacksheepU

        Are you referring to All Dogs Go to Heaven?

        November 12, 2013 at 5:30 pm |
    • Hoss

      Discussing natural disasters while stipulating there is a God is meant to point out the inherent contradictions with the attributes associated with god. There are many lines of reasoning involving this metaphysical topic, and exploring those gains additional insight regardless of whether or not it is meant as satire. To put it simply, it makes people think.

      Your last statement is an argument from ignorance, but it's very funny since it's ironic.

      November 12, 2013 at 5:29 pm |
      • aguzman33

        Your line of "reasoning" is also quite short-sighted, considering that it aims to exploit the pain and suffering of thousands of Filipinos simply to advance the atheist's agenda. Let's start with the fact that basic meteorology was completely downplayed in this report. Any educated person can look at a map and tell you the Philippines is susceptible to these types of natural disasters. That would pretty much be the end of the conversation. But you and I know both know this country is strong in its Catholic faith, and this "blog" was nothing more than a cheap attack on that faith.

        November 12, 2013 at 6:00 pm |
    • Sara

      I agree natural disasters are not evidence for or against the existence of gods in general. However, they are evidence against very specific god conceptions. For instance, if a believer or religion argues that there is an all good and all powerful God and that there is some benefit to humans living out life on earth, this doesn't jive with the killing of babies in this way, and many believers use delusional mechanisms to avoid looking at these inconsistencies. Same with the whole "abortion is bad although it provides a free ride to heaven" argument". While arguing with a true delusion is probably pointless, we do see a few people pop out of these inconsistent belief systems, usually landing in something more logical and a tad more skeptical.

      November 12, 2013 at 7:50 pm |
  5. Fish

    God was right there in the middle of the storm those who survived are a testament to that fact. God created man to have free choice and thus if man chooses to live where storms rage and are common, we can in fact we wouldn't have it any other way else we would be griping on why God wouldn't let us have a place on the beach!!!

    November 12, 2013 at 5:14 pm |
    • Hoss

      By your logic, if people surviving is proof of God, then people dying is proof there is no God.
      Do you see how stupid I'd be if I actually said look at all the dying people...it's proof there is not a God. My saying that is just as stupid as saying "God was right there in the middle of the storm those who survived are a testament to that fact".

      November 12, 2013 at 5:20 pm |
      • Greg

        I think it's helpful for you, Hoss, as well as anyone else commenting here, to recognize that as a human you have very limited ability to perceive the totality of the situation, let alone communicate what little you know to others.

        God the Creator, the one that put order in the universe and made it possible that a planet in space might hold YOU, a unique person that is designed as surely as the DNA in you helped to make that design for you manifest.

        That is the same Creator God that brings life, death, and change.

        The Creation proves the Creator.

        Can you make a typhoon? How about something simple. An ant? No?

        What do you know about creation?

        November 12, 2013 at 5:31 pm |
        • Fallacy Spotting 101

          Post by 'Greg' contains an instance of the non causa pro causa fallacy and also a straw man argument.

          http://fallacyfiles.org/glossary.html

          November 12, 2013 at 5:55 pm |
    • Colin

      The logic of your first sentence is totally at odds with the rest of your post.

      November 12, 2013 at 5:20 pm |
  6. Ralph

    Most people live as if there was no God, no Creator, no Redeemer, no Savior, who yet has been calling people to repent and come to Him. through Christ who died for our sins on a cross, and as soon as something bad happens these same people ask
    "Where was God? He was in the storm. Those who survived and still today live have now a chance to turn to Him. Will they? Or, will they simply look for Him to blame the next time brick wall comes against them? And yet even the worst earthly calamity does not measure up with eternity of the Lake of Fire where people without Christ will end up.Grace and forgiveness is available in Christ, but those who do not want Him into their lives will be without Him also in all eternity. However, God certainly wants all who can to help those in need as those who survived and us all are not in ourselves any better than those who died, or who now suffer. God is both righteous/holy and loving toward us sinners. Where His grace in Christ is received all is well even in trouble and death. Where His love is consistently disdained comes trouble with no remedy. (E.g. Proverbs 1)

    November 12, 2013 at 5:01 pm |
    • Anon

      Your god is a sick piece of shít if that requires murdering children.

      November 12, 2013 at 5:06 pm |
    • Bob

      Ralph, how is it again that your omnipotent being couldn't do his saving bit without the whole silly Jesus redeemer savior hoopla? And how was Jesus' death a "sacrifice", when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers? Pretty pathetic "god" that you've made for yourself there.

      Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
      Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
      http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

      November 12, 2013 at 5:14 pm |
      • Larksparrow

        Sorry, dude, I will not take on that yoke of pretended freedom again.

        November 13, 2013 at 8:51 am |
    • BlacksheepU

      Ok...I got it. God is a big baby stamping his feet and having a tantrum because not enough people fear him.

      November 12, 2013 at 5:28 pm |
  7. Colin

    If we take the Bible as true, which character killed the most people?

    1. Nero
    2. Herod
    3. Satan; or
    4. God

    November 12, 2013 at 5:01 pm |
    • devin

      God. So what's your point? Trying to equate the actions of a sovereign, just God with that of sinful created beings is simply naive. I'm sure you can do better.

      November 12, 2013 at 5:08 pm |
      • Bob

        Seems you can't, devin. Not even close.

        November 12, 2013 at 5:15 pm |
        • devin

          Thanks for the input Bob, I'll consider the source.

          November 12, 2013 at 6:44 pm |
      • Colin

        "A sovereign JUST God, hey?" Like the time he murdered al lthe little Egyptian children and babies to make the Pharoh release the Jews. Like the time he drowned the entire planet to punish some Jews. Like the time he ordered the JEws to commit genocide on the inhabitants of the Promised Land. Like the time he demanded that his own son be gruesomely executed to forgive the original sin of a ficti.tious couple. Like the time he murdered Jobs family in a sick bet with Satan. Like the time he murdered all the Philistine soilders. Like the time he ordered Moses to kill all the females i nthe conquered tribe who were not virgins. Like the time he......

        Ya getting the point, Devin?

        November 12, 2013 at 5:16 pm |
        • devin

          First up, by very definition God is incapable of murder. Murder is defined as the unlawful criminal act of taking the life of another. God transcends and is in no fashion bound by laws designed for human beings. Second, your vision of justice is seen through the prism of how one created individual should deal with another created individual. God is the creator, He gives life and takes it away according to His will and purposes, independent of and without regard to human sentiment or input. I know it's a hard pill to swallow, but it is what it is.

          November 12, 2013 at 6:40 pm |
        • a reasonable atheist

          Suspended disbelief: I created my son. Does that give me the right to arbitrarily end his life?

          You made a lot of pronouncements regarding a creator and creations but did not provide any evidence to validate said pronouncements. Therefore, your entire premise can be dismissed.

          November 13, 2013 at 6:18 pm |
      • Joey

        devin, might makes right is not a god basis for morality.

        November 12, 2013 at 5:28 pm |
        • devin

          It does when you are an eternal, self existing being.

          November 12, 2013 at 6:41 pm |
      • Perhapsif

        I am with you Devin! I am tired of those gosh darn atheists spouting off their know it all nonsense about how there is no god! Well I am willing to stand with you right here, right now and proudly say that god exists! Yes all you naysayers, Ra the ancient Egyptian Sun God is alive and well thank you. And if you don't believe Devin and me, then you can all take a trip down the river of De-Nile!

        November 12, 2013 at 5:30 pm |
        • devin

          What are you talking about? I was referring to Zeus!!!

          November 12, 2013 at 6:43 pm |
    • God

      ME ME ME

      I'm the number one mass murderer of all time.

      And I do it because I love you. LoL

      November 12, 2013 at 5:10 pm |
      • lol??

        Show me the statute that sayz God can't cut short someone's days.

        November 12, 2013 at 5:20 pm |
        • God

          I am GOD, and as such you cannot command me to do anything.
          On the other hand, I command you to keep being an idiot.

          November 12, 2013 at 5:32 pm |
        • Greg

          You are not GOD. You're smug and lack wisdom.

          Just look at yourself. The "God issue" is a big enough one to you that you have taken out the screen name "God". Something tells me you think about God a lot.

          Well, good for you. I was atheist for 45 years, and much like you are now, I proved my arrogance, pride, and lack of knowledge. Keep learning about God, and you may find God.You'll be glad you did.

          November 12, 2013 at 5:44 pm |
        • Larksparrow

          Nice delusion, and unconsciously I think you may actually believe that. But you are NOT God.

          November 13, 2013 at 8:54 am |
    • Larksparrow

      5. Mao Tse Tung 40,000,000
      6. Stalin 20,000,000
      7. Pol Pot ~2,000,000
      8. Gingus Kahn, noted to have killed the greatest proportion of human beings in human history.
      9. Adolph Hitler and his cronies, 45,000,000 – 75,000,000.
      These were all atheists.

      November 13, 2013 at 8:48 am |
      • dillonb1950

        quit giving FALSE information...history tells us much much differnt. Do your own freaking research Troll

        November 13, 2013 at 9:22 am |
        • Larksparrow

          A simple search... "Greatest Mass murderer in history" will show that you are either ignorant of the truth or purposely lying. I base my facts on history. Or, try: "The top 10 biggest mass murderers in history". You may find my numbers underestimate the true carnage. How about "The Biggest Mass Murderers in History". There are some numbers there also. Try this one: "WORLD'S MOST POLITICALLY CORRECT MASS MURDERER". Some say that Ghengis Khan killed around 11.1% of the existing human population of his time. And that just scratches the surface.

          November 13, 2013 at 11:01 am |
        • Joey

          Genghis Khan actually promoted religious tolerance in his empire. He consulted Buddhist monks, Muslims, Christian missionaries. The Secret History of the Mongols chronicles Genghis praying to the Burhan Haldun mountain. Doesn't sound like an atheist to me.

          November 13, 2013 at 1:19 pm |
    • Khan

      Colin – all humans have been killed by God including Herod, Nero, Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Saddam, Bush. But that is not the point – humans are a creation of God – made for a specific purpose. For that God gave the humans most optimum proportions – almost the image of God so that the human's if they want can play god. But if the humans stray from the very reason why they were made – they loose all value in the eyes of God. But if they are able to use their intelligence & wisdom with free will – God will reward them in Eternity. Humans have to die in anycase, no matter killed by the above mentioned tyrants or by diseases, or old age or like so many suicides in american army.

      November 21, 2013 at 10:38 am |
  8. Vic

    God is Sovereign and Supreme, He set His creation to take its natural course till the end of time. He may or may not supernaturally intervene, as He sees fit, according to His Sovereign Will and Wisdom.

    It is God's the "Big Picture" is, that is the "Grand Scheme of Things," who are we to even think we know what, why or what should be?!

    November 12, 2013 at 4:59 pm |
    • Madtown

      Maybe. Doesn't mean any particular man-made religion is correct.

      November 12, 2013 at 5:08 pm |
      • God

        I actually made all the religions up as a joke. I think it's hilarious how stupid I can make even the most intelligent person using faith(you know....belief lacking justification).

        November 12, 2013 at 5:16 pm |
  9. WES

    Seriously folks, if God controlled everything our freedom of choice would not exist along with greed and many other pitfalls of man’s choosing, including the man made polluting of the atmosphere which mankind has determined to be the cause of these natural disasters. Why should God want to interfere in these kinds of things when for the most part humanity wants nothing to do with God. Ya there will be those that will say that If God would save us from these disasters we’d all jump on his wagon, of course God knows how long humanity would stay with Him, about 2 seconds and we’d be back doing our dirty deeds.

    November 12, 2013 at 4:59 pm |
    • Get Real

      Wes,

      And yet, according to your stories, this "God" character KNEW that this would happen BEFORE he created it.... and created it anyway...

      November 12, 2013 at 5:03 pm |
  10. Colin

    According to the Bible, the flood of Noah, which drowned the entire planet, occurred in about 3,000 BC. At that point, there were about 100 million people in the World, living throughout Subsaharan Africa, China, India, Russia, Europe, North and South America and Australia.

    Why did he punish these people because he was angry at a few Jews?

    What about the millions of little babies and beautiful little boys and girls, aged between 3 and 12 years old he cruelly drowned? How many millions must there have been? Beautiful little blue eyed boys and girls drowned by this God for no fault of their own.

    What an evil sick bast.ard he is. Why do Christians worship this evil, capricious monster?

    And all those poor animals he drowned and all the plants.

    November 12, 2013 at 4:57 pm |
    • Perhapsif

      Perhaps a few better questions are: Where did all that water go? How did Noah get down to Antarctic for the Penquins? How was he able to determine a male dung beetle from a female dung beetle? What did the lions eat during their 40 day journey? And why did he let those poor unicorns drown?

      November 12, 2013 at 5:12 pm |
    • Madtown

      "Children are sinners and deserve punishment."

      – Topher

      November 12, 2013 at 5:15 pm |
    • fred

      Colin, I could not worship the god you love to paint. Your vision of god is certainly not the God worshiped by the Chosen Ones and known as God to any true believers.

      You claim full support of the scientific community that the flood could not have happened. So which is it did it happen or did it not? If you want to stick to your claim there was no flood then stick to it. If there was no flood then this is a story concerning final judgment of man which is what Jesus confirmed. Those who found favor in the eyes of the Lord are taken to safety in Gods loving care while all else in the fallen world is washed away.

      If there was a flood in 3,000BC your entire atheistic house of cards crumbles.

      November 12, 2013 at 5:24 pm |
      • Colin

        fred, I cannot believe it. Your criticism of my point is logical and valid. I have read your posts for a long time now, and that is the first time you have ever made sense. Well done.

        However, my positions are not inconsistent. Of course I don't believe in the flood or in any of the sick, violent acts attributed to God in the Bible. They are all made up. My point is that this fictional character, that Christians like to paint all all loving, is actually a sick, sadistic figure. They just ignore the bad parts.

        November 12, 2013 at 5:29 pm |
      • Sue

        fred, the "house of cards" is rather obviously that of of your own religious beliefs, not your pathetic cherrypick of one of Colin's statements.

        And again, one has to ask, why can't your god come up with even a single clear demonstration of his existence in the modern world? At best, even from that one consideration, reasonable doubt in your crazy Christian tales is more than justified.

        November 12, 2013 at 5:32 pm |
    • Ralph

      Colin, if you read the Bible more closely you will find in Genesis 6 God's evaluation of man: 5 Then the Lord[b] saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” Colin, God did not make man evil, but Adam and Eve fell into sin as they distrusted God and His love for them and believed the devil's lies. Are you not still today believing devil's lies instead of God's self-revelation in the Word written and in the Word incarnate, Jesus Christ? God could have wiped out Adam and Even, but in doing so He would also have wiped out their whole posterity. Instead He redeemed us in Christ who calls us to come to Him for forgiveness and new life. The Flood had nothing to do with the Jews who at that time did not even exist. {The English name "Jew" comes from Judah, one of the twelve patriarchs of Israel whose name before was Jacob until God changed it. Jacob was grand child of Abraham who was from Ur of Chaldeans.)

      November 12, 2013 at 5:57 pm |
      • Colin

        Ok Ralph, so he drowns millions of beautiful children because he is mad at a few proto-Jews. That appears to be the extent of your factual disagreement with me. You just seem to think such a sick act would be justified because "God did it".

        LEt's face it, it never happened, its all fiction, but it shows the backflips and cartwheels Christians will do to read the Bible literally but still hold that God is just, mercifull and all-loving.

        November 13, 2013 at 4:06 am |
  11. Anon

    I like comparing the christian god to Joffrey Baratheon since they're both imaginary and sociopathic pieces of shít.

    November 12, 2013 at 4:53 pm |
    • aguzman33

      It's never too late to open your heart to God. Even now, as you antagonize those of faith, he still loves you and forgiveness is still possible because of the sacrifice made by Jesus Christ. Leave the darkness behind.

      November 12, 2013 at 4:55 pm |
      • Anon

        ^ Look another cultist that worships the mythological god of the three desert blood cults.

        November 12, 2013 at 4:57 pm |
        • aguzman33

          Jesus Christ was not mythical. He was very real.

          November 12, 2013 at 4:59 pm |
        • Anon

          So was Hercules in the minds of the ancient Greeks.

          November 12, 2013 at 5:01 pm |
        • aguzman33

          Hercules was mythical. No historian would deny that Jesus Christ existed.

          November 12, 2013 at 5:16 pm |
        • Get Real

          aguzman33
          "Hercules was mythical. No historian would deny that Jesus Christ existed."

          Do you know that the 1st century historians (pretty danged close to the action), Josephus and Tacitus mentioned Hercules as often as they mentioned Jesus?

          November 12, 2013 at 5:48 pm |
        • Well Duh

          @aguzman33
          "No historian would deny that Jesus Christ existed."

          I don't think you've looked very hard then. I don't think you've looked at all actually.

          November 12, 2013 at 6:11 pm |
      • God

        I can speak for myself, thank you not so very much.

        Anon is correct though.

        aguzman33 I've never formally revealed myself to anyone. If you're following a religion, you're delusional. Seriously, what in the hell makes you think I value faith in my creation rather than critical thinking? I detest the human creation of faith. Faith stops people from using one of the most precious gift I've given to humanity...the brain.

        November 12, 2013 at 5:04 pm |
        • aguzman33

          Faith and critical thinking go hand in hand. Only then do we begin to understand life. Using words like "detest" and insulting people of faith hardly comprises "critical thinking".

          November 12, 2013 at 5:10 pm |
        • Greg

          For a guy that believes faith is something that humans created, and you find it something that you detest, then why do you put so much faith in yourself?

          You who can't even make a termite, as a witness of all that is around us with eyes to see and a mind to comprehend (some) of it, declare that you know faith is man-made, and you don't have any?

          You may want to learn more about faith, and where you've putting yours.

          November 12, 2013 at 5:17 pm |
      • Madtown

        because of the sacrifice made by Jesus Christ
        ---–
        "Who is Jesus?"

        – signed, a human being who God placed in an area of this world with no christianity

        November 12, 2013 at 5:20 pm |
        • aguzman33

          Jesus was literally the word of God here on earth. He was born of the virgin, Mary. Throughout his life, he taught us more about God than was ever known or understood before. He performed miracles, taught us how to live in love and harmony, how to worship the Lord and most importantly, he died on the cross so that our sins would be forgiven. You might see people wear crucifixes, these are to remind us of his great sacrifice, which we should not take for granted through sin.

          November 12, 2013 at 5:35 pm |
        • Madtown

          That whoosh you just heard was my point passing swiftly over your head. My example means to illustrate the FACT that there are humans in this world that don't know who Jesus is. Why? God created them, and put them in an area of the world where christianity isn't practiced or known, where it doesn't exist. Christianity is not a universally shared concept. Don't you think God is powerful? Is he not powerful enough to pass on a simple message, if he wants us all to follow it?

          November 12, 2013 at 5:44 pm |
  12. john b

    God is Us. We are as much a part of God as God is of Us. If God is nature then God has no ability to mind what happens. He stirred the pot, now watch the swirls and eddies go round and round. He was here to create a masterpiece, and the masterpiece adheres to all the rules of Nature. God is sorry for creating the mess he did, but he is also proud of what he created. He never expected it to wind up this way. He built a Universe then rolled it down a hill. There is nothing he can do to change time. He can only watch the horror unfold. Yet he also watches as a baby smiles at its parents. And God feels that giving life to all of us far outweighs the death that will befall all of us. He wants you to relish the experience, to live life as best you can, and know that it's just a moment in time that existed, it really did happen.

    November 12, 2013 at 4:52 pm |
    • Anon

      ^ Behold the mind of a cultist that worships the mythological god of the three desert blood cults.

      November 12, 2013 at 4:54 pm |
    • Larksparrow

      Pantheism...

      November 13, 2013 at 8:38 am |
  13. Shawn

    I am off to go pray for your souls, may you all continue to argue about things you don't think exist. You being here means your interested in discussion about God and that is one tiny thing going for you right now.

    November 12, 2013 at 4:39 pm |
    • Joan

      Pray that your grammar gets improved.

      November 12, 2013 at 4:45 pm |
    • God

      I'm GOD and you're STUPID

      I will kill 3.1 million children next year with famine because your stupidity has angered me.
      I challenge your puny science to stop me.

      November 12, 2013 at 4:46 pm |
      • Larksparrow

        Is it not rather WE, who waste our money on vane pleasures, drugs, oversize houses, grossly expensive wars, etc. who are guilty of starving them to death??? You, are most certainly NOT God.

        November 13, 2013 at 8:30 am |
  14. blacksheepuniversity

    The Bible is a great work of literature, written by men for one express purpose...to put the fear of god in humanity and has done so fairly successfully. Some would say that the novels of writers such as Stephen King can scare the bejesus out of someone or say that the Exorcist is one of the scariest films of all time. However, I put the Bible ahead of them all. Generation after generation, people are going to church to be scared out of their wits about what is written in the Bible but just like most great literary works, we take what has meaning in our lives and we leave behind the rest.

    The fact is, if we are made in god's image...then who is god?

    God is us and we are god!

    Let us pat ourselves on our backs and take credit for all of the amazing things that we do.

    November 12, 2013 at 4:38 pm |
    • God

      you're correct that i'm not real, but your reasoning is horrible

      November 12, 2013 at 4:40 pm |
    • lol??

      Conclusions are funny things. You tryin' to be funny with a shaggy dog story??

      November 12, 2013 at 4:45 pm |
    • blacksheepuniversity

      God...that's cute.

      November 12, 2013 at 5:06 pm |
      • Greg

        Really. So explain to us how all of these people that wrote the bible collectively over thousands of years got together and made up this plan in advance to scare humanity?

        And what is it precisely that is so scary about Grace? Do you know what it is? If you don't understand grace, you don't understand Christianity.

        You may need to look in the bible for some answers, and you may need to look at the New Testament and the historical underpinnings.

        One thing we cannot ignore is that something very big happened when Jesus Christ lived and died. The Bible is by far on the top of the best sellers list in almost every language. There is no book that has been translated into so many languages – it is often the first book published in many languages.

        The Bible is absolutely the most powerful book that has ever existed, by any measure.

        Why?

        November 12, 2013 at 5:25 pm |
        • Sue

          Greg, it is a successful meme, and that is what happens with such things. There is nothing more to it than that.

          November 12, 2013 at 5:35 pm |
        • Greg

          No, it is much more than a successful meme. People have been changed by the bible, and continue to be.

          Successful meme? Give me break.

          I was an atheist for 40+ years. You'll need to do better than serve up intellectually lazy arguments like that and expect anyone with wisdom and knowledge to be persuaded.

          November 12, 2013 at 6:09 pm |
        • lol??

          sue sayz,
          "............nothing more ............."

          "much" AND "more"
          occurs in 54 verses in the KJV, including 40 exact phrases shown first.

          November 12, 2013 at 5:44 pm |
        • Greg

          So go on with your construct that the Bible was somehow created by people to control others.

          You would think that people that claim to know something about the Bible would actually know that Jesus himself defied the Pharisees. He did not call for "following the leaders" – no! Quite the opposite.

          Any person with even a basic understanding of the New Testament and the story of Jesus would know that the Bible does not suggest we follow and obey people.

          November 12, 2013 at 6:14 pm |
        • Sue

          Greg, you've actually said nothing to counter my claim that the bible represents a successful meme (or meme set). Where we disagree is that you claim, but apparently only when it suits you, that there is consistent truth to that meme.

          In addition, your claim about the many years that you were an atheist, and that you know all the arguments, is just arrogant, and the latter part of your claim is obviously false; you are unable to effectively rebut such arguments that you claim to know so well.

          November 13, 2013 at 3:45 pm |
      • Fan2C

        Greg,
        "So explain to us how all of these people that wrote the bible collectively over thousands of years got together and made up this plan in advance to scare humanity?"

        Not 'collectively' so much as 'consecutively', each author having read what the previous ones fantasized about and building upon it. Plus, the Bible that you see today was selectively chosen by 4th century churchmen and included only the writings which fit the "party line".

        Scare humanity? Well, partly true - there may have been many reasons. Some used it for control and for ethnocentric rallying. Some perhaps were attempting to civilize the primitives. And sure, some of the shamans may have even believed that their fantasies were true.

        November 12, 2013 at 6:03 pm |
        • lol??

          The saved knew what was true long before the 4th century rolled out.

          November 12, 2013 at 6:15 pm |
        • Greg

          You are referring to my post as if I was the author of the post I was responding to.

          You might want to address this "control of the masses" issue with people that actually believe in that whole line of reasoning. While you're at it, see if these people are capable of reasoning how any person (all people) tend to justify their actions, good or bad.

          November 12, 2013 at 6:22 pm |
  15. Jimmy

    Watching from the skybox.

    November 12, 2013 at 4:37 pm |
  16. mjbrin

    it isn't atheists who are wondering if there is a god or not, it is the people of faith who are questioning their faith in a loving god.
    what ever though it doesn't really matter to me. people need help so people will help whether or not they believe in something.

    November 12, 2013 at 4:37 pm |
  17. Dean Winchester

    As humans we are interested in a long healthy life, God is interested in the ultimate death of all humans as he looks at the bigger "eternal" picture where as we only look at the here and now. We somehow think that God should think how we do. So where was God? Sitting back and watching it happen, thus to add more souls to heaven or hell!

    November 12, 2013 at 4:35 pm |
  18. Vic

    "God grant me the serenity
    to accept the things I cannot change;
    courage to change the things I can;
    and wisdom to know the difference."

    November 12, 2013 at 4:33 pm |
    • Josh

      Vic that's just wimping out. Ask your god for what you should have the peanuts to do yourself. Well maybe you don't have such.

      November 12, 2013 at 4:37 pm |
    • THE UNBELIEVERS (2013) - Official Movie Trailer (Richard Dawkins

      For you Vic and fred below and all creationist/ID believers.

      PRESS RELEASE

      The Unbelievers – LA Dec 5, NY Dec 13

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxDLkoK8vQQ

      November 12, 2013 at 5:43 pm |
  19. God

    I don't care if you believe in me.
    If you're talking about that one time with Moses....well I was drunk. I swear it seemed like a good idea at the time.

    November 12, 2013 at 4:32 pm |
  20. LVGyrl

    God has been asked to leave our world. He is punishing us just like parents punish their children when they do not listen. This is the only way he can get our attention.

    November 12, 2013 at 4:30 pm |
    • Well Duh

      @LVGyrl
      "God has been asked to leave our world. He is punishing us just like parents punish their children when they do not listen. This is the only way he can get our attention."

      Really? The ONLY way?

      November 12, 2013 at 4:32 pm |
      • LVGyrl

        It apparently has your attention LOL!

        November 12, 2013 at 4:38 pm |
        • Well Duh

          But the ONLY way? Your words, not mine.

          November 12, 2013 at 4:46 pm |
      • Khan

        LVGyrl,
        I could never imagine that a true god would punish in this way his children – this comparison is absolutely not correct

        November 14, 2013 at 10:51 am |
    • Anon

      Your god is a piece of shít if he likes to kill children.

      November 12, 2013 at 4:32 pm |
      • LVGyrl

        God created this world and everything in it. So yeah, he is pretty awesome if you ask me. 🙂

        November 12, 2013 at 4:41 pm |
        • Well Duh

          Convincing evidence of this statement please.

          November 12, 2013 at 4:46 pm |
        • LVGyrl

          I mean he's a pretty awesome piece of shit. I like that.

          November 12, 2013 at 4:47 pm |
        • Colin

          Really? But you just said he murdered 1,000 odd dirt poor Filipinos, who are 90% staunch Catholics and good, honest people, to punish them for something other people did. That is not awesome, that is a sick, disgusting thing to do. What a sick, evil bast.ard your God is.

          Like the time he drown the entire planet because he was annoyed at a few JEws.

          November 12, 2013 at 4:49 pm |
        • Anon

          Remember evangelical cultists don't consider catholics are true christians just in case.

          November 12, 2013 at 4:56 pm |
        • Larksparrow

          Unfortunately, this is true that some evangelicals are critical of the Catholic Faith. But Catholics acknowledge that "Jesus Christ came in the flesh" as the very basic dogma of their theology, and therefore are from God according to the Scriptures claimed by such 'evangelicals' who say catholics are not 'true' Christians..

          November 13, 2013 at 8:43 am |
    • LPN

      Yup...sending a horrific natural disaster to someone's home is the ONLY way I can think of to get someone's attention!

      November 12, 2013 at 4:34 pm |
      • LVGyrl

        It's the only thing on the news. It has a lot of people's attention.

        November 12, 2013 at 4:40 pm |
        • LVGyrl

          OK well that and Obamacare.

          November 12, 2013 at 4:48 pm |
        • corridorwatcher

          couldn't he just write, "God lives!", in the clouds everywhere in all languages, on a daily basis?

          November 12, 2013 at 7:10 pm |
    • Colin

      "" This is the only way he can get our attention."

      So, he is not omnipotent then.

      November 12, 2013 at 4:36 pm |
    • Get Real

      You do something like this to your kids, Gyrl, and you'll get a long prison stay and will have your kids removed from you. Go ahead. Try it.

      November 12, 2013 at 4:36 pm |
      • LVGyrl

        Seeing how only God has the power to create this storm, I guess I won't be harming any children in the near future.

        November 12, 2013 at 4:43 pm |
        • LVGyrl

          Ummmmmm... Huh???

          November 12, 2013 at 4:49 pm |
        • Get Real

          LVGyrl,

          But it sounds like you would do any nasty, evil thing that IS within your power to get your kids' attention. I hope that law enforcement is aware of these tendencies in you.

          November 12, 2013 at 4:53 pm |
    • Baa

      Parent don't (or shouldn't) kill their children when they don't listen. It is a sick parent that does that.

      November 12, 2013 at 4:36 pm |
    • Ray

      Any parent who punishes their child by killing said child is a horrific, degenerate parent. Is this how you want to portray God?

      November 12, 2013 at 4:37 pm |
    • God

      My attention is only attainable through stupidity. Where stupidity goes, GOD follows.

      And LVGyrl, you have my attention.

      November 12, 2013 at 4:51 pm |
      • Larksparrow

        Yes, where stupidity goes, God follows, and makes intelligent.

        November 13, 2013 at 8:37 am |
    • a reasonable atheist

      You punish your children by murdering their friends?

      November 14, 2013 at 10:11 am |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.