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 A flood survivor is surrounded by debris on the Philippine island of Leyte.
November 11th, 2013
11:16 AM ET
Where was God in the Philippines?By Daniel Burke, CNN Belief Blog Co-editor [twitter-follow screen_name='BurkeCNN'] (CNN) - The disasters are always different and often devastating. But the questions they raise are hauntingly familiar. In the days since Super Typhoon Haiyan swept through the Philippines on Thursday, survivors are frantically searching for lost family members and international aid groups are springing into action. Officials say the death toll may rise to 10,000 in the heavily Catholic country. Meanwhile, many people are asking: How should we make sense of such senseless death and destruction? Was God in the whirlwind itself, as the Bible hints, or present only in the aftermath, as people mobilize to provide food, water and shelter? These questions may not be new, but we keep asking them, perhaps because the answers remain so elusive. For many Americans, a paradox sits at the heart of their thinking about natural disasters. According to a survey taken after 2011's earthquake and tsunami in Japan, most Americans (56%) believe that God is control of everything. But more Americans blame hurricanes, earthquakes and other storms on global warming (58%) than on an angry and punishing deity (38%), according to a 2011 poll by the Public Religion Research Institute. “These kind of questions about God being in control and there simultaneously being suffering are the kind of things that keep seminarians up at night," institute CEO Robert P. Jones said in 2011. "They’re thorny theological issues." READ: Typhoon Haiyan: Survivors in Philippines face grim struggle as death toll rises The Bible's Psalm 107 says that “For (God) commands, and raises the stormy wind, which lifts up the waves thereof. ... He turns rivers into a wilderness, and the water springs into dry ground." But, as the poll shows, most Americans have moved past the idea that God causes natural disasters, wrote Stephen Prothero, a frequent CNN contributor, in a 2011 column. "When it comes to earthquakes and hurricanes, our authorities are geologists and meteorologists," Prothero said as he rode out Hurricane Irene on Cape Cod in Massachusetts. "Most of us interpret these events not through the rumblings of the biblical prophet Jeremiah or the poetry of the Book of Revelation but through the scientific truths of air pressure and tectonic plates." For atheists, storms like Haiyan are proof that God doesn't exist, author and activist Sam Harris said. "Either God can do nothing to stop catastrophes like this, or he doesn’t care to, or he doesn’t exist. God is either impotent, evil or imaginary," Harris said after Japan's tsunami. "Take your pick, and choose wisely." God may or may not be in withering storms, but many religious leaders say they sense a divine presence in the aftermath, as people across the world mobilize to lend a hand. Rabbi Harold Kushner is one of the most famous names in the realm of theodicy, a branch of theology that tries to explain the unexplainable: why a good God would allow bad things to happen. After Japan's tsunami, Kushner called nature "an equal-opportunity destroyer," making no distinctions between sinners and saints. But Kushner, author of the bestselling book "When Bad Things Happen to Good People," said he sees God's hand in the resilience of people whose lives have been destroyed and in the "goodness and generosity" of strangers who donate and pray for the survivors. READ: How to help victims of Typhoon Haiyan That still leaves a tricky question, though: Why do humans suffer, sometimes terribly, in the first place? There's no good answer, says the Rev. James Martin, a Jesuit priest and best-selling author. "Each person has to come to grips with that," Martin said. "It’s not as if some magic answer can be found. But the idea of God suffering along with us can be very helpful." Muslims, on the other hand, see stormy trials as tests from God, said Sayyid Syeed, national director of the Islamic Society of North America’s Office of Interfaith and Community Alliances. "Muslims believe that God tests those he loves, and these tragedies also serve as a reminder to the rest of us to remain grateful to God for all our blessings and cognizant that we must support those in need," Syeed said. Vietnamese Buddhist master Thich Nhat Hanh, whose native country remains in Haiyan's path, said such storms remind us that our lives are impermanent and the importance of treasuring each moment. "This is the best that we can do for those who have died: We can live in such a way that they can feel they are continuing to live in us, more mindfully, more profoundly, more beautifully, tasting every minute of life available to us, for them," Hanh said. Stephen Prothero, Jessica Ravitz and Eric Marrapodi contributed to this report. soundoff (3,827 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 Next »
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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For Opposing View, posted November 14, 2013 at 1:12 am:
My first answer to many, many things in reality would be "I don't know". I'm actually not that smart and I do not know if there's a God or not. I am an agnostic-atheist. "I don't know" would be tattooed on my body if I were into ink. And I am somewhat 'ok' with this. And this is my honest truth to you. I have no idea what happened before the Big Bang. I don't know if there are souls. Nor what would ultimately happen to all of us when we die. This is my truth to you all. An ommission of vast ignorance on my part.
Yet... I seem to be quite certain of one thing: None of you do either.
You're my human family. And if we all share a same beginning (via a deity), that information is not present, or hasn't been found, because everything we've seen so far reeks of human intervention. The major religions are splintered into denominations because of human decision. Not God. If humans are deciding what is true and what isn't concerning the 'God', it's clearly corrupt. Can the germs in your own body fully describe you? (that is – if they had brains to do so)
My thing HAS, and always will BE (until something better comes along) - humans do not know the creator of all reality. It's placing the cart WAY before the horse.
Voyager just left our solar system this past summer. We just got video footage of the legendary giant squid. We're getting closer to the Higgs Boson. We're discovering more Earth-like planets as we progress.
Why can't we be humble with what we DO know? Just breathe in what we can decipher. And stop making stuff up because we don't know something. Just say, "I don't know". But also, don't give up trying to find out......
Everything else (the invisibles: Yaweh, Allah, Zeus) have done nothing but cause division over our exsistence. We should put our imaginary friends away and face reality. Becase reality, is actually kinda cool.
If everyone listens to you what will they do all day? they will have no one to p[lay with.
@AverageJoe76 : I'm actually not that smart and I do not know if there's a God or not. ... We should put our imaginary friends [(the invisibles: Yaweh, Allah, Zeus)] away and face reality.
You seem confused. Do you take a neutral position on the possibility of God or do you declare them imaginary?
@AverageJoe76 : I seem to be quite certain of one thing: None of you do either.
You're right, I don't know for certain. Yet, the evidence does point toward the Biblical God.
Please share your evidence.
@Anon : Please share your evidence.
Here are some of them.
1) Bible, stating that God created matter, energy and time
2) Astrophysicists agree that the earth had a beginning (~14.5 billion years ago)
3) Dino soft tissue (i.e. blood cells in blood vessels) (means dinos lived less than 10,000 years ago)
4) Fulfilled prophecies in the Bible (means that an omniscient being inspired the Bible).
5) Flaws in radiometric dating
in other words – grasping for straw
(he has to grasp because he never knows exactly how much is need for Solomon's stables; first he needs to find out how many stables...)
Give me a break. Everything you just said is completely absurd.
@Live4Him
"1) Bible, stating that God created matter, energy and time"
That's a claim not evidence.
"2) Astrophysicists agree that the earth had a beginning (~14.5 billion years ago)"
The universe is ~13 byo. The Earth is only ~4.5 byo. Neither of which are evidence of your God.
"3) Dino soft tissue (i.e. blood cells in blood vessels) (means dinos lived less than 10,000 years ago)"
Incorrect. 1. Your claims, if I remember correctly, are related to DNA, not soft tissue and 2. that just indicate really old soft tissue, not more recent dinosaurs.
"4) Fulfilled prophecies in the Bible (means that an omniscient being inspired the Bible)."
... or self-fulfilling prophecies, or made-up events, or rewritten prophecies to fit events, etc.
"5) Flaws in radiometric dating"
Even it radiometric dating were completely and entirely unreliable, which it is not, that still would not be evidence of your supposed God.
'Evidence'? You call THAT evidence?!? ..........remind me to never be in a courthouse where you're the judge.
I said, "I don't know if there's A God". I especially don't believe in the Lighting God, Yaweh 2.0, or the Biblical Blood-Sacrafice God. All of them can't even support an educated human's imagination of a God. Bible God makes poor choices. Zeus is possibly th coolest; at least he's written to be petty and we're not to expect him to be otherwise. Yaweh 2.0.... I just don't know enough about him, but if it's Abraham's God, then he's basically the Blood-Sacrafice God in another book.
None of this is evidence of god.
CNN tactic #23: if we can't blame Bush blame God
how are they blaming "god"?
Once again, areas prone to have typhoons should have all the twenty miles from the beach made into national parks. Only daily visits allowed. No buildings of any kind. These national parks should grow rapidly growing trees to serve as a buffer to the homes inland. Ditto for the construction of sand dunes along the beaches. Fight Nature with Nature!!!
Considering, however, the number of damaging earthquakes and typhoons that hit the Philippines every year, maybe it is time to vacate the entire country?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhoons_in_the_Philippines
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_earthquakes_in_the_Philippines#21st_century
This would eliminate ports throughout the world.
Ports in hurricane areas are typically built to withstand said storms. Ditto for ports in earthquake prone areas. Examples, Miami for hurricane defenses and San Francisco for earthquake defenses. " Push comes to shove " in areas like the Philippines which apparently has deadlier storms/earthquakes than the USA, one could easily make ports into work areas only. Workers would live a safe distance away
Good Morning. Have a blessed day!!!
http://christiannews.net/2013/11/04/unprecedented-skull-discovery-raises-serious-questions-over-evolutionary-premises/
Now that presents a little problem for evolution.
It's reported by a christian news site, I'm not going to trust it. Until we hear that numerous years of research on the topic has been debunked, there is no justification for accepting otherwise. You may wish to believe everything you read, some of us are not so gullible.
(btw your Alias is rather hypocritical considering you too are an Atheist in regards to all other gods but your own...so are you gonna start hunting down christians also now?)
Hardly. Evolution in general is not challenged by this discovery, but how we understand the evolution of humans is reviewed whenever new information is discovered. Science embraces discovery and challenges to current thinking.
Now, contrast that with the Bible, which says everything written 2000 years ago is still accurate, though it is full not only of immoralities, but contradictions, as well as revisions between text found in copies of different ages. The revisions that have occurred throughout history are something that modern-day Christians don't discuss – it causes problems.
Despite Kenya's fossils providing lessons of mankind's origin, using remains to educate children may contradict religious and traditional teachings.
The 1.8 million year old skulls.
http://mg.co.za/article/2013-10-29-kenyas-famous-remains-challenge-modern-teachings/
No gods/devil required !
Determining distinct species based solely on fossils is a difficult task sometimes. These new finds may well redraw some lines between species of early man, but it is too early to tell, just yet. However, I wouldn't, give too much weight to a religious news source for a science story.
For more info, try this http://www.livescience.com/40505-earliest-humans-one-species.html
or the original paper: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/342/6156/326.abstract
I THINK AS A WHOLE THE HUMAN RACE SHOULD GIVE UP ON RELIGION GOD IS IMAGINARY SOMETHING PEOPLE USE TO EXPLAIN AN KNOWN UNKNOWN FOR EXAMPLE GOD MADE EVERY BODY AND EVERYTHING ...NO WE JUST KNOW EVERYTHING IS HERE BUT WE DO NOT KNOW HOW EVERYTHING WAS MADE ...IF GOD WAS REAL DO YOU THINK THESE DISASTERS WOULD HAPPEN OR IF GOD WAS REAL HE WOULD STAY IN HIDEING NEVER TO REVEAL HIS SELF TO HELP HIS CREATION OR DO PEOPLE NEED TO JUST FACE THE FACT THERE IS NO GOD I THINK ANOTHER REASON BELIVE GOD IS BECAUSE NO ONE WANTS TO DIE SO IF THEY BELIVE IN THIS THEY HAVE A SINCE THAT WHEN YOUR DONE HERE THERES SOMETHING BETTER I COULD UNDERSTAND THIS BUT PEOPLE PLEASE THE BIBLE CONTRADICTS IT SELF OVER AND OVER LIKE HOW IT SAYS GOD LOVES US ALL BUT IF YOU DONT WORSHIP HIM YOU DONT GET IN TO HEAVEN AND ARE PUNISHED FOREVER IN HELL WELL IF I HAVE A KID EVEN IF HE DOSENT WORSHIP ME OR LOVE ME IN OTHER WORDS I WOULD STILL WANT THE BEST AND GIVE THEM THE BEST NO MATTER WHAT AND ONE MORE THING NOT ON TOPIC BUT IT SAYS GOD KNOWS ALL WICH CAN NOT BE TRUE BECAUSE IF HE KNOWS EVERYTHING THEN HE WOULDNT KNOW HOW IT FEELS TO LEARN SOMETHING SO THERE FOR HE DOSE NOT KNOW EVERYTHING SEE HOW EAST IT IS TO SEE THAT GOD CAN NOT EXSIST I THINK IF ALL RELIGION GOS AWAY THE WORLD COULD COME TOGETHER AS 1 BECAUSE NO ONE WILL BELIVE THIS IS HOW GOD WANTS IT TO BE AND IF THERE WAS A REAL GOD THERE WILL ONLY BE ONE RELIGION NOT ALL THE OTHER BELIEFS WHEN I HAVE CHILDREN OF MY OWN IM GUNNA TEACH THEM THERES NO GOD AND WHATS REAL
Just because you may not understand something doesn't mean it isn't real. To think that your limited knowledge or intellect reigns supreme in the Universe is pure ego and folly. Perhaps you should examine the subject personally before jumping to your conclusions. Ask God to reveal himself to you. Perhaps actually read the entire bible so you understand the whole story (you've obviously read some of the beginning, but stopped before you got to the redemption part.)
to believe that personal revelation is proof of anything is pure folly and ego
Once you realize that Adam and Eve never actually existed there is no need for Jesus to be sacrificed to forgive original sin, and the bible falls apart.
You need to research the latest genetic research.
Apparently we all trace back to two original beings genetically. (Adam and Eve for ma as it is accounted in the Bible for us by God)
I suppose that is probably aliens though, right.
Yes, but you will find that the man and woman didn't live at the same time.
You don't know your latest genetic research!!
Tell me something about yourself since arguing is pointless and less effective when you don't know each other.
Married, 4 kids, we homeschool, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. Own a steel fabricating shop, love the outdoors, quad, seadoo, WOT, looking to raise Godly children in an unGodly world.
Aliens are much more likely than the Christian god.
Exactly why Creation ministries like answers in genesis exist.
With evidence of Adam & Eve the Bible is true and Atheists know it. (scares them)
Tell me something about yourself since arguing is pointless and less effective when you don't know each other.
Married, 4 kids, we homeschool, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. Own a steel fabricating shop, love the outdoors, quad, seadoo, WOT, looking to raise Godly children in an unGodly world.
@Paul
You're referring to "Mitochondrial Eve" and "Y-Chromosomal Adam".
They are unrelated to the Biblical Adam and Eve, save for the names.
The matrilineal source is estimated to have lived around 200,000 years ago where her male counterpart has been traced to around 150,000 years ago.
Males were not made from dirt and clay. Females are not magical rib-clones.
You need to get updated, that date span has changed and of course dating science is ridiculous.
The fact that they are related is the issue.
As for clay and ribs who says?, scientists who cant get weather/population predictions correct?
Quit quoting scientists like they are Gods.
If they are predicting historical or futurist events they shouldn't be called scientists. (prophets)
Science is at least repeatable and observable and they were not there only God was.
Paul
And how do YOU know this. You can show NO evidence in the least other than to say..." no one was there..only god was.......convenient but non provable and without the least shred of evidence. I say Mickey Mouse was there with him...and snow white and the seven dwarfs....that is a stement equal to yours.....exactly equal......prove to me they weren't.
Well at least you agree that your religion takes faith!
TJ,
" Ask God to reveal himself to you"
And which other invisible beings that you don't believe in have *you* asked to reveal themselves to you?
Atheists Have No Wisdom…
In an episode of Star Trek The Next Generation ent-itled "Where Silence Has Lease", Captain Picard was replying to a statement Data had made regarding a strange phenom-ena they were seeing in space. Captain Picard replied to Data, "That's hardly a scientific observation, Commander."
Data then replied, "Captain. The most elementary and valuable statement in science, the beginning of wisdom is: "I do not know"... "I do not know" what that is, sir (referring to a phenom-ena they were seeing in space)…
My whole point of sharing this is that, if Data is correct, and if such a principal has existed in science, then it's certainly not a principal the atheists have heard of. And if they have heard of it, they certainly don't practice it. Which, as Data has implied, indicates they have no wisdom. For the beginning of wisdom is to admit: "I do not know"...
In all my conversations with atheists, at no time have I ever heard them say – I do not know – about anything. They're much too arrogant for that. Instead, they love to run around p-umpous and proud and acting like they know the truth. When the reality is, they have no truth at all and don't know anything. They're nothing but smoke and hot air. Lots of p-uff and no substance. They're too arrogant to admit even the most simplest of statements: That, "I do not know" whether God exists or not. Which would be the perfect truth…
Proverbs 24:7 – Wisdom is too high for a fool:
Psalm 14:1 – The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
I do not know if any god exists or not. I do know that there is no actual evidence for any god. I believe the probability of there being any god to be very low, virtually zero. Now, azzhole, why do believe your delusions?
Hot Air… If you truly "do not know" whether God exists or not, then why do you tell lies by saying "There is no God" (as if you KNOW he doesn't exist). Please answer me that?…
LOOK AT LIFE THATS HOW YOU KNOW THERES NO GOD BELIVEING GOD IS JUST AS STUPID AS BELIEVING SANTA THE EASTER BUNNY WHOOO A MAN WHO KNOWS ALL MADE EVERYTHING CAN DO ANYTHING MAKE ANYTHING HAPPEN NO A HUMAN RACE HAS THAT POWER NOT GOD BECUASE GOD CAN NOT EXSIST
In the Beginning were God & Word. God decided to make Universe so while God did all the WORKING, word did all the TALKING. When done God saw all was NOT GOOD & was mad. He begot the word into son Jesus. God saw Jesus was different. When God pulled left ear, Jesus played HUMAN and God’s reaction was HEHEHE. When God pulled right ear, Jesus played GOD and God’s reaction was HOHOHO. For 33 years god played heheHOHOheheHOHOheheHOHO & than got tired & gave Jesus to Jews for crucifixion.
Opposing View,
You don't know either... and neither did a bunch of primitive Israelites.
I do indeed know there is a God. Just because you're too ignorant to realize that fact, do not presume what someone else knows…
AND YOUR TO IGNORANT TO LOOK AT REAL LIFE FACTS NOT WHAT THEY THINK HAPPEND OR A BOOK SAYS THAT NO ONE KNOWS WHO TRULY WROTE IT
Im glad someone else pointed out that very statement from that very episode of star trek. Good One!!! it is true, most so called atheist are retarded little know it alls with their cups filled to the brim of bologna they think is science. yet if they even knew half the science they claim they knew, would be really amazed what is actually being demonstrated. the truth of it ll is none of us know a thing. god bless you.
I THINK AS A WHOLE THE HUMAN RACE SHOULD GIVE UP ON RELIGION GOD IS IMAGINARY SOMETHING PEOPLE USE TO EXPLAIN AN KNOWN UNKNOWN FOR EXAMPLE GOD MADE EVERY BODY AND EVERYTHING ...NO WE JUST KNOW EVERYTHING IS HERE BUT WE DO NOT KNOW HOW EVERYTHING WAS MADE ...IF GOD WAS REAL DO YOU THINK THESE DISASTERS WOULD HAPPEN OR IF GOD WAS REAL HE WOULD STAY IN HIDEING NEVER TO REVEAL HIS SELF TO HELP HIS CREATION OR DO PEOPLE NEED TO JUST FACE THE FACT THERE IS NO GOD I THINK ANOTHER REASON BELIVE GOD IS BECAUSE NO ONE WANTS TO DIE SO IF THEY BELIVE IN THIS THEY HAVE A SINCE THAT WHEN YOUR DONE HERE THERES SOMETHING BETTER I COULD UNDERSTAND THIS BUT PEOPLE PLEASE THE BIBLE CONTRADICTS IT SELF OVER AND OVER LIKE HOW IT SAYS GOD LOVES US ALL BUT IF YOU DONT WORSHIP HIM YOU DONT GET IN TO HEAVEN AND ARE PUNISHED FOREVER IN HELL WELL IF I HAVE A KID EVEN IF HE DOSENT WORSHIP ME OR LOVE ME IN OTHER WORDS I WOULD STILL WANT THE BEST AND GIVE THEM THE BEST NO MATTER WHAT AND ONE MORE THING NOT ON TOPIC BUT IT SAYS GOD KNOWS ALL WICH CAN NOT BE TRUE BECAUSE IF HE KNOWS EVERYTHING THEN HE WOULDNT KNOW HOW IT FEELS TO LEARN SOMETHING SO THERE FOR HE DOSE NOT KNOW EVERYTHING SEE HOW EAST IT IS TO SEE THAT GOD CAN NOT EXSIST I THINK IF ALL RELIGION GOS AWAY THE WORLD COULD COME TOGETHER AS 1 BECAUSE NO ONE WILL BELIVE THIS IS HOW GOD WANTS IT TO BE AND IF THERE WAS A REAL GOD THERE WILL ONLY BE ONE RELIGION NOT ALL THE OTHER BELIEFS WHEN I HAVE CHILDREN OF MY OWN IM GUNNA TEACH THEM THERES NO GOD AND WHATS REAL
There is plenty we do not know, and if you had watched any of the scientific community discuss various findings, you would have known and seen that. But, many of their findings have been tested and accepted, whereas no evidence has been provided by those making religious claims.
Also, you have used the Bible in its own defense, citing:
Proverbs 24:7 – Wisdom is too high for a fool:
Psalm 14:1 – The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
Who would expect a religious book to do anything but provide text for its own protection and survival? You may as well have said, "Thou shall not test the Lord thy God," which would have covered everything an atheist could offer as evidence against the Bible.
In real-life situations, if a stranger told us to just trust them on an important issue, we would ask for their argument and proof, and if not provided, would reject their request. Also, the greater the importance of the issue, the greater the proof would need to be. So, if someone is asking people to live a life only in accordance with a religious book, we should require extraordinary proof before doing such a thing.
This is much more difficult to do of a religion when a person is raised that way from an early age, as well as having friends and family demand obedience with religious beliefs as well. Those of us who were once religious know that.
I THINK AS A WHOLE THE HUMAN RACE SHOULD GIVE UP ON RELIGION GOD IS IMAGINARY SOMETHING PEOPLE USE TO EXPLAIN AN KNOWN UNKNOWN FOR EXAMPLE GOD MADE EVERY BODY AND EVERYTHING ...NO WE JUST KNOW EVERYTHING IS HERE BUT WE DO NOT KNOW HOW EVERYTHING WAS MADE ...IF GOD WAS REAL DO YOU THINK THESE DISASTERS WOULD HAPPEN OR IF GOD WAS REAL HE WOULD STAY IN HIDEING NEVER TO REVEAL HIS SELF TO HELP HIS CREATION OR DO PEOPLE NEED TO JUST FACE THE FACT THERE IS NO GOD I THINK ANOTHER REASON BELIVE GOD IS BECAUSE NO ONE WANTS TO DIE SO IF THEY BELIVE IN THIS THEY HAVE A SINCE THAT WHEN YOUR DONE HERE THERES SOMETHING BETTER I COULD UNDERSTAND THIS BUT PEOPLE PLEASE THE BIBLE CONTRADICTS IT SELF OVER AND OVER LIKE HOW IT SAYS GOD LOVES US ALL BUT IF YOU DONT WORSHIP HIM YOU DONT GET IN TO HEAVEN AND ARE PUNISHED FOREVER IN HELL WELL IF I HAVE A KID EVEN IF HE DOSENT WORSHIP ME OR LOVE ME IN OTHER WORDS I WOULD STILL WANT THE BEST AND GIVE THEM THE BEST NO MATTER WHAT AND ONE MORE THING NOT ON TOPIC BUT IT SAYS GOD KNOWS ALL WICH CAN NOT BE TRUE BECAUSE IF HE KNOWS EVERYTHING THEN HE WOULDNT KNOW HOW IT FEELS TO LEARN SOMETHING SO THERE FOR HE DOSE NOT KNOW EVERYTHING SEE HOW EAST IT IS TO SEE THAT GOD CAN NOT EXSIST I THINK IF ALL RELIGION GOS AWAY THE WORLD COULD COME TOGETHER AS 1 BECAUSE NO ONE WILL BELIVE THIS IS HOW GOD WANTS IT TO BE AND IF THERE WAS A REAL GOD THERE WILL ONLY BE ONE RELIGION NOT ALL THE OTHER BELIEFS WHEN I HAVE CHILDREN OF MY OWN IM GUNNA TEACH THEM THERES NO GOD AND WHATS REAL
Wow, OV, that was sure convincing
I bet you are a hit on the short bus
I don't know if there's a god and I have never said "there is no god". I see some silly folks online saying this kind of thing, but most of my friends and family are non-believers and I've never once heard any of them say anything so foolish. It sounds to me like you're just picking out the most extreme atheists with whom to have conversations.
OV,
NO!... you believers can't have Data! Data was obviously an agnostic atheist. Nowhere did he mention "I don't know, therefore it's god, let alone your "God" character."
Obviously, your gods are no help in preventing natural or unnatural disasters.
Once again, areas prone to have typhoons should have all the twenty miles from the beach made into national parks. Only daily visits allowed. No buildings of any kind. These national parks should grow rapidly growing trees to serve as a buffer to the homes inland. Ditto for the construction of sand dunes along the beaches. Fight Nature with Nature!!!
God doesn't exist. Therefore he's not in any more of a position to stop natural disasters (which are jus that, natural) from happening anymore than Gandalf or Thor or Christopher Robin.
That's your belief and opinion not a fact.
After reading many of the comments, my original take on god remains the same. He doesn't exist, and those who believe in him are naive, foolish, and if they vote or hold public office, dangerous. The comments made by non-believers are not intended to attack god because god does not exist. They are intended to rationally ask, "If god does exist, why does he behave as he does, or doesn't behave at all." Quoting verses or referring to some "holy" scripture proves nothing except those doing so probably have not read it. In the bible, god is schizoid and randomly shows his love and unrestrained sadism in verse to verse. Take a look a Lot-his wife is turned into a pillar of salt for looking back to see if her loved ones are following, and the next thing you known Lot is in a cave with his daughters drunk and having s-ex with them. But god doesn't seem to care or notice about that.
For al you ungodly people I read your comment and I just want to saw ...Psalm 14 v1 said, The fool said there is no God .I would recommend you guys listen to Dr Myles Munroe you will learn a lot .
There really is no god, stupid.
" The fool said there is no God"
A quite old and sometimes effective tactic – declaring that those who do not believe your story are 'fools'. Nobody wants to be considered 'dumb' for not seeing the Emperor's new clothes, or a 'bas.tard' for not seeing the Sultan's new turban, or a 'cuckold' for not being able to see the Miller's gold thumb.
Even Joseph Smith used it when he gathered his 'witnesses' to his golden plates. He told them that only those with 'true faith' would be able to 'see' them.
The ancient, primitive Hebrews who originated those Bible stories were quite adept at manipulative mind-games.
I will certainly be glad when all you atheists are in hell. I'm tired of hearing your nonsense....
Opposing View
"I will certainly be glad when all you atheists are in hell. I'm tired of hearing your nonsense...."
Just what Jesus would have said, right? lol. Read a Bible SOMEDAY. At least Jesus answered questions.
Observer...
Jesus did not say that. I said it. If it was left up to me you'd be in hell already…
"I will certainly be glad when all you atheists are in hell. I'm tired of hearing your nonsense...."
Well, since you apparently believe you will be in heaven for eternity, and there is no time factor in eternity, i suppose the that thing for you to do would be to go up to heaven immediately. That way, you will immediately see all atheists in hell
go ahead, boy, suck your 12 gauge and go meet jeebus
If you are glad Gods children (Atheists) are in hell then you need to get on your knees before the Almighty God and beg forgiveness for your hardened heart.
Here are the words of a CHRISTIAN:
"Jesus did not say that. I said it. If it was left up to me you'd be in hell already…"
– Opposing View
Calling other people stupid because you can't make your case is lazy.
Psalm 14 v 1 the fool said says in his heart there is no God ....I would recommend you unbeliever to listen to Dr Myles Monroe you will learn a lot .
The fact that some people don't believe is the failure of your god.
If God doesn't exist, atheists couldn't blame God for what happens naturally like weather, earthquakes, death, blizzards etc. Instead of actually facing what caused it, they pout and whine. Bad things happen to us all. Just because God is all knowing an all powerful doesn't mean everything is caused by him. Everything dies including animals. Just because people die doesn't mean God doesn't exist or doesn't care. Death is a natural part of life for us all even though it's hard to deal with. Most of the "bad things" were cased by people while the other half is natural. That doesn't mean God doesn't exist. God won't stop you from doing what your heart is set on doing. You caused an action to occur and thus YOU must face the punishment for doing it. Man can't stop nature no matter how "moral" you think you are. It's sad yes, but you can't change the way that nature is. Sorry atheist trolls. This doesn't prove you more right.
You have no evidence of a god, but the point you're missing is that the religious claim that their god(s) are all-powerful and created the world and all in it; the religious also claim that their all-powerful god(s) can answer prayer and perform miracles. In that context, is it not reasonable that an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent god could remove suffering, prevent disaster, etc. After all the religious credit their god(s) for the good things that happen – so why wouldn't this same god(s) be responsible for the bad things?
I wasn't talking just about the state of nature. God didn't implant your actions that you did in the past or will do in the future before you were born. YOU set the chain in motion that sets a chain reaction. Every action you make has a consequence. God didn't force you to make decisions nor was those decisions passed down by Adam eating the apple. People willingly make choices without owning up to it. For an example, a man would be mad at God for not saving his son from being murdered. Instead of actually facing who set the action in motion(the murderer), people will demand to know where God is. The thing is, God cannot stop you from making choices you made. As I said, death is natural whether it's by sickness, dying in a storm of any kind, earthquakes, murder, suicide(even that's a personal decision someone makes), or dying of old age, does not mean God doesn't care or doesn't exist. Prayer isn't meant for you to get everything you want. That's not even the point of prayer to begin with. Every living life eventually dies and that's a natural part of life whether or not that fits our "morals" it's still a fact many of us cannot accept.
You really should consider staying off the internet, as you are clearly schizoid / delusional. You are nothing but a cult idiot.
Just sayin
++ on the wisdom and ++ on the effort
HERES WHAT I THINK .......................................I THINK AS A WHOLE THE HUMAN RACE SHOULD GIVE UP ON RELIGION GOD IS IMAGINARY SOMETHING PEOPLE USE TO EXPLAIN AN KNOWN UNKNOWN FOR EXAMPLE GOD MADE EVERY BODY AND EVERYTHING ...NO WE JUST KNOW EVERYTHING IS HERE BUT WE DO NOT KNOW HOW EVERYTHING WAS MADE ...IF GOD WAS REAL DO YOU THINK THESE DISASTERS WOULD HAPPEN OR IF GOD WAS REAL HE WOULD STAY IN HIDEING NEVER TO REVEAL HIS SELF TO HELP HIS CREATION OR DO PEOPLE NEED TO JUST FACE THE FACT THERE IS NO GOD I THINK ANOTHER REASON BELIVE GOD IS BECAUSE NO ONE WANTS TO DIE SO IF THEY BELIVE IN THIS THEY HAVE A SINCE THAT WHEN YOUR DONE HERE THERES SOMETHING BETTER I COULD UNDERSTAND THIS BUT PEOPLE PLEASE THE BIBLE CONTRADICTS IT SELF OVER AND OVER LIKE HOW IT SAYS GOD LOVES US ALL BUT IF YOU DONT WORSHIP HIM YOU DONT GET IN TO HEAVEN AND ARE PUNISHED FOREVER IN HELL WELL IF I HAVE A KID EVEN IF HE DOSENT WORSHIP ME OR LOVE ME IN OTHER WORDS I WOULD STILL WANT THE BEST AND GIVE THEM THE BEST NO MATTER WHAT AND ONE MORE THING NOT ON TOPIC BUT IT SAYS GOD KNOWS ALL WICH CAN NOT BE TRUE BECAUSE IF HE KNOWS EVERYTHING THEN HE WOULDNT KNOW HOW IT FEELS TO LEARN SOMETHING SO THERE FOR HE DOSE NOT KNOW EVERYTHING SEE HOW EAST IT IS TO SEE THAT GOD CAN NOT EXSIST I THINK IF ALL RELIGION GOS AWAY THE WORLD COULD COME TOGETHER AS 1 BECAUSE NO ONE WILL BELIVE THIS IS HOW GOD WANTS IT TO BE AND IF THERE WAS A REAL GOD THERE WILL ONLY BE ONE RELIGION NOT ALL THE OTHER BELIEFS WHEN I HAVE CHILDREN OF MY OWN IM GUNNA TEACH THEM THERES NO GOD AND WHATS REAL .....................TELL ME WHAT U THINK
"Death is a natural part of life"
You are correct. Now throw out everything else you wrote and you're on your way to understanding reality.
Really, now? All atheists think that way? All Christians molest children.
God created reality, right? And everthing in it, right? Good and bad, correct? God knows everything – front to back, A-Z, the path of every particle ever in exsistence, RIGHT? This is the power I believed a 'god' would have. (quick: someone tell me God can't do this stuff)
God's universe = God's rules of design. Gode made sin. God makes 'sinners'. God 'hates' sin (but not as much as I hate beets, because I WOULD NEVER MAKE A SALAD WITH BEETS – I absolutely hate beets!)
Why can't the faithful connect these dots of uncanny BS? This is really the most "ABC" way to show how screwed the entire story is. He hates sin, but makes it. "Don't eat from the tree, monkeymen, but I'll put it so you can get to it easily, AND place a talking snake in the mix to eff with you". But don't do it. He didn't even warn Adam about Satan, NOR did God seem to care Satan was on the premisis to influence his virtually 'newborn' female he just made (wet behind the ears).
THEN (our O'Merciful Father) blames the newborn humans for the fall of everything behind them!
He kills scores of people beyond this point, but won't kill the defective TWO humans, to start ALL over again.... without sin.
OMG.
That's why I consider Christians as delusional cultists.
Same goes for their mythological piece of shít savior.
Page 1 of the Bible: creation story.
Page 2 of the Bible: another creation story with a different order of creation.
If you have a functioning BS detector, it's already going off
Actually if you take a close look you will see that Genesis 1 concerns "God" whereas the Genesis 2 concerns "Lord God". The first is an objective overview of the creation process the second is personal. Lord God is the personal loving God of the Hebrew. What you read is the account of Lord Gods personal attention to man and creation.
Consider I show you a picture of my family and house in chapter 1 then chapter 2 begins to unfold with the relationship between the husband and wife as love unfolds. Chapter 3 the family falls apart because each goes after their desires rejecting unity an love. The rest is the generations of brokenness that resulted from seeking self desires as the house fell down. Jesus arrives just in the neck of time and makes a way in love and unity to all that still long for it.
Little f fred has no BS detector.
No, read the Bible and see for yourself that only "God" (Elohim a general name) is used in Genesis 1. In Genesis 2 we see "God" finished creating and rested then blessed the 7th day making it holy. Then "this is the account when they were created, when the Lord God (note Lord God is YHWH or Yahweh his covenant name as loving kindness with redemptive concern for His people) made the earth and the heavens .....................
The rest of this chapter concerns the "Lord God" by name at each major point.
rationalization
to ascribe (one's acts, opinions, etc.) to causes that superficially seem reasonable and valid but that actually are unrelated to the true, possibly unconscious and often less creditable or agreeable causes.
Blessed are the Cheesemakers
We all rationalize our beliefs but there is a point where you are so far out on a limb that rationality is absent. This is what can be found with the atheist mindset as one cannot support the claim there is no God.
As far as Genesis 1 and 2 go my statement was not rationalization but factual concerning the difference between the use of Elohim and Yahweh. The sad part is if you read Matthew 5,6,7 you would have realized God has given a message to you. It is you who rationalize there is no God because if you really believed that there is no God you would not need to rationalize.
Matthew by the way was written to the Jews that still knew the difference between Elohim and Yahweh thousands of years later. You can attack many things in Bible as a skeptic but I do not know of anyone who doubts what sticklers the Jews were when it came to usage of word God and Lord God. Some of you skeptic friends use Genesis 1 and 2 to claim it was written by two different people and different times. Now that is rationalization because the Hebrew had no reason to put lies in their own Holy Scriptures. You forget these chapters are their foundation for who this God is that protects them yet allows bad things to fall on them. You can call them crazy or non existent but you cannot claim they were not the keepers of the Law in great detail.
fred,
Long straw man argument. The onus is on you to prove your god and you can't. To boot the christian god is immoral, unethical and contrdicts itself.
Yes we all use rationalizations, you however are rationalizing a 2000-5000 year old collection of ignorant writings as if it was inspired by the creator of the universe. As the old saying goes "you can't make this stuff up"....
Blessed
"The onus is on you to prove your god and you can't."
=>The facts concerning use of Elohim and Yahwey in Genesis are not dependent on proof of God.
=>No, you have a belief as well and if neither of us can prove our beliefs on side does not get a free ride. You do have a belief and I am not speaking about non belief.
"To boot the christian god is immoral, unethical and contrdicts itself. "
=>Who is most likely correct the people present over the past 10,000 years that loved God and claimed God was their protector and provider or a skeptic making up stuff without knowledge thousands of years after that culture and its writings?
"a 2000-5000 year old collection of ignorant writings as if it was inspired by the creator of the universe"
=>Thousands of years later the flood story and the talking serpent tell the same story that every president of the United States of America claims to believe. That is some inspired stuff.
=> With billions of copies in distribution it is in fact the Greatest Story ever Told
=> It transforms lives to this very day to count of millions per year.
=>you (Cheesemaker) can't get it out of your head
=>out of all the holy Books the Bible gets it right as to singularity of beginning
."As the old saying goes "you can't make this stuff up"...."
=>actually, God used the exact words to reveal the nature of every soul that opens it. It does separate light from dark.
=> correct man cannot make this stuff up
fred,
It's FAR easier to prove something exists than that it doesn't.
You've got the FAR easier job, so prove God exists.
Observer
I never said prove God does not exist that is the atheist self defense mechanism that allows their brains to justify an unreasonable position.
If you believe that you will enjoy an eternal slumber after a lifetime of destroying desperate peoples hope in a greater meaning and purpose then show me your proof. What you have is a religion of your own with a heaven of your own design where Hitler, Mao, Stalin and Jesus sleep in a state of nirvana in perfect unity without awareness of past present and future. Wow that is some religion you have there.
"Now the Lord God HAD FORMED out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky."
- Genesis 2:19 (emphasis added)
"Had formed" is the past perpect tense. It's describing an event that already took place. There is no differnece with the order of creation in Genesis chapter 1 and chapter 2. Chapter 1 gives an overview of the creation week. Chapter 2 goes more into detail about day 6.
Paul,
"And out of the ground the Lord God FORMED every beast of the field"
– Genesis 2:19 (KIng James Bible and the New King James Bible)
So either the King James version of the Bible is WRONG or you are wrong. Take your pick.
Average Joe
Your problem is that you started connecting dots from a false start position. God did not make sin. Dots: God created the heavens and the earth ~> God created all living things ~> free will by choice allows man to leave the presence of God ~> a way back into Gods presence is provided for all ~> few choose the way the truth and the life that is offered ~> end of story
So god did not create the universe and all in it?
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The Hebrew did not have a word for multiverse theory, baryonic matter etc. It is assumed this opening referred to the universe and all it contained at that point.
So god did not create the universe and all in it?
Santa
If I bake you the best pie known to man and you leave it on your dash board for two weeks then eat it and get sick I did not make you sick.
But the pie only contains toxins because of the bacteria – which are part of the universe that you claim your god made. There's no escaping the fact that if you claim that your god created the universe and all in it then that includes the bad things as well as the good. You give it credit for the good but blame something else (which according to you your god created) for the bad.
The pie was not evil, bacteria was not evil and you were not evil putting it on your dashboard. Your ignorance in eating it after two weeks is your fault and is a normal consequence. Just as pain is a good thing to keep us from putting our hand on a hot burner. Perhaps we should agree that God allows evil, sin and physical suffering to continue and thus is responsible. Now, Gods purpose in creation was the redemption of souls and this being the case everything works together in fulfillment of that purpose. This is the Joy and protection of God. Not that we don't eat bad pie, suffer physical and moral evil but that our life is in Christ our hope is on the promise and our place is in heaven.
At this moment you could ask Christ into your life and discover the way God has made for you. You choose not to do so (yes you have lots of reasons not to believe just as I have reasons to believe yet neither of us has any evidence to support our belief) and that is the choice to live only in the natural way. Just like all the other mammals you suffer from many things and if only animal you do not know good and evil (a lion is not evil for killing all non biological cubs for example). You do not have a hope or promise outside of the natural . Strange choice.
So god didn't create evil ...
How did evil become to be then ?
No, there are 3 verses in the Bible (Isaiah and Amos) that some take to imply God created evil but the Hebrew actually refers to natural calamity not moral evil.
God created the most beautiful of angelic being who eventually desired Gods place and was cast down to earth. The evil came out of the creation not the creator. The same happened with man where evil came out of the creation not the creator.
You may argue that God put the tree of knowledge smack in the middle of the Garden thus created evil but that we are not told. We are told that when God finished creating he rested on the 7th day as it was all good. Only goodness was created.
As with Lucifer and man it was when beings left the presence of God (pure holiness, perfect goodness, perfect love etc) that evil and sin entered the world.
So what do you believe in?
Obama? (that's just plain scary)
Yourself? (you don't have to look far to see that failure)
Mankind? (history is littered with their sinfulness – oops you don't believe in sin)
Little Green Men? (easier to believe in God)
Nothing? (that's just a copout and doesn't hold a candle in light of genetics, history, creation evidence, etc....)
So what do you believe in?
Its easy to say what you don't believe in but lets get real.
Apparently WWII veterans said their were no Atheists in foxholes???
You do believe in something and I am betting it's God that is why you are so angry at Him. (easy to see in your comments)
We have told God to basically get out of our lives and yet you want to blame Him for disasters that befall us?
And God did not "create" SIN He simply gave man a free will who followed Satan's sinful ways.
As for how sin originated that is a question you can ask God when you stand before Him some day as I will.
Love in Christ,
Paul
That atheist in the foxhole anecdote has been debunked as an myth. Stop using that as if that's any authority on atheists. It isn't 't.
Paul,
"We have told God to basically get out of our lives and yet you want to blame Him for disasters that befall us?"
Probably at no time in history was the Christian "God" more integrated into every aspect of society – education, science, art & literature, government, etc., than in the 14th century It was all-pervasive then, when the Black Plague claimed 45%–50% of the population of Europe. Your "God" couldn't even kill a flea; and the ruling religion of the day, in fact, even hindered finding the cause for the plague – or a cure – by their edicts against scientific research & progress.
You need to read my post better.
You have me on the wrong side of the issue.
Love in Christ,
Paul
Tell me something about yourself since arguing is pointless and less effective when you don't know each other.
Married, 4 kids, we homeschool, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. Own a steel fabricating shop, love the outdoors, quad, seadoo, WOT, looking to raise Godly children in an unGodly world.
I don't believe biased people who consider themselves "experts" because you grew up with the bible or read it 1-4 times(typically that's the number of times atheists claim to have read the bible). That still doesn't make you an expert or know more than Christians. Atheist trolls should stop lying to themselves.
Topher, is that me?
Where was God in the Storm? God was not in the whirlwind,God was not in the lightning. God is the still healing voice after the storms of life have passed. God is in His Church, the body and bride of Christ first to respond to emergencies and last to leave.
Sounds like the Marines, except for the "bride" part of it.
Christians have always been Gods few.
Technically that'd be the Jews. I'd say the Christians are more "God's zealous Air National Guard"; which is in no way meant to be a slight against the Air National Guard, they do good things.
This is my Jesus. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My Jesus is my best friend. He is my life. I must master him as I must master my life. My Jesus, without me, is useless. Without my Jesus, I am useless. I must fire my Jesus true.
You WISH you were one of US twerp.
So God creates an entire universe, and then charges the 'truth' with a tribe in the desert. He's not really up on equality, is he?
God didn't create the storm? So he shoots you, catches you, then begins to console you about getting shot?
Geez..... with a God like this, who needs the devil?
Simple, god was nowhere.
Prayer changes things .
Does it slow down the spread of disease after disasters like this one? Maybe slow the decomposition of bodies?
Prayer can indeed do those things but you seem to misunderstand what prayer actually is
Prayer has never been proven to be effective. Sometimes what someone wishes for happens, sometimes not. Nothing to distinguish that from pure chance. Similar to praising a god for good things and blaming something else for the bad things.
Never is a blanket statement that you cannot substantiate. Prayer has changed me and millions of others. I am here to bear witness to that who I know. God
The only way praying can help you is as some sort of placebo effect. That's it. These are facts.
Why not pray some amputee their limbs back? It'd be incredible evidence to prove the power of prayer.
@Average Joe,
Actually, his assertion is correct – prayer has never been proven to be effective because there are no credible studies to back it up. Although, it is claimed that it does have a tranquilizing/beneficial effect on the person doing the praying, and I could see that, because it is a means to relieve the stress of a situation.
Prayer changes things??? really... what about all the prayers that were said BEFORE the storm hit and EVERY known disaster that has happened and all the prayers that were said after each one? People are still dying every day.No...I don't think prayer changes anything......if you can't see this then stay away from me.....lol
Prayer didn't help the 90% Christians of the 10,000 people who died. likely many of who were praying when dying.
The Christ-insanity cult is the ultimate Stockholm syndrome.
It would be more effective if you provided a brief explanation of Stockholm Syndrome.
It's Dawkins.
It's Dawkins – I just now caught what you were trying to say. Thanks.
No problemo.
The Bible says that “The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” (1 John 5:19) "The wicked one” is Satan. (Matthew 13:19; Mark 4:15)
If Satan has power over the world, then he influences humans to be as selfish, greedy, and shortsighted as he is. Would that not help to explain why man so badly mismanages his own environment on the earth?
Many experts warn that mismanagement of the environment may play a role in natural disasters, whether by causing them, worsening them, or making human society more vulnerable to them.
God is not callously indifferent to the suffering that Satan causes. In fact, God is deeply moved by human suffering. For example, concerning the hard times that befell the nation of Israel, the Bible says of God: “During all their distress it was distressing to him.” (Isaiah 63:9) Mercifully, God has arranged to bring the cruel rule of Satan to an end—soon! He has appointed his Son, Jesus Christ, to be a just and righteous King forever.
Ok, per my limited understanding of what a 'God' should be able to do:
God made reality.
God made Lucifer.
God knows everything.
God knows what will happen before it happens. Even before he creates it (hey -it's God)
What saddens him? That his plans are being executed? His design is being followed?
IF GOD IS REAL, WHEN DOES GOD GET A PASS FOR WHAT HAS TRANSPIRED FROM HIS GRAND DESIGN?
If the buck starts and stops with God, why is anyone making an excuse for him? Like he's some "babe-in-the-woods" and didn't know Satan was gonna be such a meanie?
God has a track record of mass murder and genocide, how is this any different? Instead of simply talking to people and clarifying his existence he just sits back and kills the ones he thinks are wrong. God is a joke. That's why atheism is growing so fast in the science age where people are encouraged to use critical thinking and repeated experiments to confirm things. It's not like 50 years ago where everyone was told god is real as a kid and just blindly believe it their entire lives.
God has done no such things. It is entirely uninvolved and may not even exist. Pick on something your own size.
Agree, since God (or any god) has never been proven to exist, there's no culpability for such a being, and that's why atheists don't get angry about God (or any god) getting blame for these things. But it is a good moral argument to see examples where God has intervened to save people, clearly revealing himself numerous times, but then doing nothing for millennia.
I forgot to preface my response with "according to the bible".
Trust me, science reveals God. It is a matter of time for science to come a full circle. It is a 360º.
No it doesn't.
I think what you perceive as revelation, Vic, is constant redefinition of your God made necessary by the progress of science. There are ever fewer places for your God to hide.
Actually, it is science that will eventually be unable to hide the truth that this universe and life in it can only be created by God.
Nope.
@Vic – So far science, in every manner, has failed to show a creator, but has been able to come up with explanations (with evidence) for how things came to be. The Bible presents no evidence.
Theoretical Physics have more faith in them than there is in scripture!
Vic,
"Actually, it is science that will eventually be unable to hide the truth that this universe and life in it can only be created by God."
It seems like you're saying that in a generation or two everyone will have good evidence for God and it'll be easy to believe. Isn't this terribly unfair to all the generations before who didn't get this same evidence and were stuck with faith vs hell?
If anything, science has proven god-based claims to be rather loose and untrue to how the natural world works.
Not true. You are equating the creation with the Creator by assuming what applies to the creation applies to the Creator.
God is outside the realm of His creation and is NOT subject to it!
Says who?
So how will science ever prove God if he outside the boundaries of reality?
How can any human know of things outside reality?
Once God pokes his head in OUR reality, he's part of reality, therefore we can measure him via scientific method.
I answered that below, already. God tests man by faith. If God showed Himself directly, faith is VOID.
Then why does he reveal himself to some and not others? The ones who NEED to see him are those who lack faith. Why would only the faithful see him? So Faithy McFaithsteen sees God and tells Haddy McHeathen she needs faith to see God. Haddy, unfortunately has a hard time understanding the reason God doesn't reveal himself because she has an even harder time understanding his exsistence. Like a flying hippo, or unicorn. So God creates Haddy and all her reality, but will never reveal himself because Haddy doesn't say the magic words, "I believe".
What kind of GOD gives you a brain to be skeptical, gives you the laws of physics, allows it's creation discoveries based on those laws, then says, "I'm outside the laws, there's no evidence to prove me, but if you DON'T believe in me because you're using the brain I made for you, you will suffer."?
That's L.O.V.E. to me
Faith: a tool used by con-artists to convince the weak minded to believe in their sales pitch without evidence. A prime example of this would be the tailor in the story of the Emperors new clothes. Without faith and likely the threat of harm from the Emperor, no one would have believed he wasn't naked. But with faith they were willing to spend oodles of money to get the imaginary cloth...
God's revelation through His creation is to everyone, and not just believers. It's not believe first to see it, it is the other way around.
@Vic, If God revealed himself to everyone, we would not need faith, because we would have fact and therefore a reason for belief.
"Not true. You are equating the creation with the Creator by assuming what applies to the creation applies to the Creator.
God is outside the realm of His creation and is NOT subject to it!"
So you can prove this?
Earlier in the discussion, I explained what I am talking about. God does not show Himself directly but reveals Himself through His creation for us to believe in Him, hence faith. Read it through the thread discussion.
Yes, it is simple, we are here, so is this universe, hence a creation, hence circumstantial evidence of a Creator.
Post by 'Vic' is an instance of the Non Causa Pro Causa fallacy.
http://fallacyfiles.org/glossary.html
Vic,
"we are here, so is this universe, hence a creation, hence circ.umstantial evidence of a Creator."
This may wrap up the case in the black & white minds of some people.
Could it be *any* other way, Vic - some way which we don't know about yet?
The options 1,000 years ago for the old mind stretcher, "list 1,000 uses for a brick" have been expanded today. We don't know what we don't know yet.
Believe it or not, circ.umstantial evidence has been proven wrong here and there, as more facts became available.
My fingers are horse dancing (I forgot the word for it) on the keyboard typing this!
"Atheism: There is no physical proof for God; therefore, God does not exist." That is as black and white mindset as it gets!
Post by 'Vic' is an instance of a Straw Man argument.
http://fallacyfiles.org/glossary.html
Vic,
And there you've gone and put your black/white definition of atheism. I've seen it explained to you before, and you pop right back to your original misconceptions.
If nothing else, for starters read the wikipedia article on it - lots of references to follow, so don't fall back on that "oh, it's ONLY wikipedia".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
Here we go again, another black and white take!
What I indicated in the quotes after the colon is a premise by Atheism and not the definition of it!
Post by 'Vic' is an instance of a Straw Man argument.
http://fallacyfiles.org/glossary.html
Not Vic.
Some great scientific minds have said science confirms their belief in God. Science does not lead all to atheism.
No it doesn't but it certainly nods to that direction.
"Science does not lead all to atheism" – but there is definite tendency there toward unbelief. AE, the eternal fate of souls is at stake, isn't science too much of a risk? Shouldn't we all be reading our Bibles and staying away from the things of the world?
Tom
No.
"Trust me"
And there is the problem. I do not, I will not and I cannot "Trust" you or anyone else who makes a claim with zero evidence. The Hindu brahman is just as reliable as you are Vic and makes the same claims only for his version of what an imagined God might be. You are exactly the same making the same claims for invisible beings you can neither prove nor verify in any way. Not a single human or religion has any empirical proof of anything supernatural let alone divine. I will be perfectly content waiting for that evidence while enjoying life, loving my family and treating others as I wish to be treated, I don't need a God, I can do all that on my own while the masses of delusional zealots fight amongst themselves over whos invisible fairy is more real.
See, that's one of the major problems, you are asserting that there is no evidence by your own definition of evidence. There is circumstantial physical as well as logical evidence that there is a God, and science is already leading to that.
No there isn't and no it isn't.
I haven't seen nor heard of a credible assertion that there's scientific evidence for God. None. Zippo. Zilch.
Please provide this 'evidence'. Or at least point to it.
This universe and life in it are circumstantial evidence of God.
@Vic
"This universe and life in it are circ[]umstantial evidence of God."
Only if you presume a God that can create a universe, such is not in evidence.
How do you jump from the concept of a Creator to Jesus died for the sins of all mankind?
Let's agree there is a God first, then I'd be more than glad to discuss who that God is.
Joey
Indoctrination or idiocy would be my guesses.
Vic, how can you describe God? I thought no one could... he's outside reality, right?
NO vic, first prove there is a god, and then we can discuss it's characteristics.
@Vic.
"Let's agree there is a God first, then I'd be more than glad to discuss who that God is."
No. Isn't that the essence of the Begging the Question fallacy?
Then why ask me how I believe in Jesus Christ as Lord?!
@Vic,
"Then why ask me how I believe in Jesus Christ as Lord?!"
Sorry, I thought you were still talking about circ.umstantial evidence.
LOL. Yeah it depends what the definition of "is" is.
Evidence? Nah, that just depends what your definition of "is" is.
Trust me, if a god is ever found to be real it won't be your god Vic.
Your assumption follows the same erroneous premise of equating the creation with the Creator. God CANNOT be found, He is outside of this realm and NOT subject to it. Furthermore, it is not up to man to find God or not, ONLY God can make such thing happen. God purposely shows not Himself directly yet reveals Himself through His creation in order for us to believe in Him. That's what faith is. God tests man by faith.
Vic, this is why mankind is so screwed up on the God-concept. You're admitting he cannot be found, he's outside reality, yet we're to believe in him with no evidence to support him. Couldn't that be anything? No details, no directions? Just look at creation?
THEN WHY DOES HE EVEN HAVE TO BE MADE UP?? Why not just see the result of creation? Measurable evidence. Stuff we can build knowledge from? Not "oh, he could be this" or "oh, he could be that"?
Mankind has been killing himself concerning the details over a God we cannot see, hear, or measure. So why waste time on him until we get definitive reason to look for him?
Vic
What do you find when you have methane and air in the same atmosphere ?
Hint it does not take a supernatural force to create IT .
Vic,
Do you know how dishonest you sound when you post this:
"Trust me, science reveals God. It is a matter of time for science to come a full circle. It is a 360º."
and then when I call bs on you.... you post this:
"Your assumption follows the same erroneous premise of equating the creation with the Creator. God CANNOT be found, He is outside of this realm and NOT subject to it. "
It is that level of dishonesty that derails your religion, your argument and is the very reason religious dogma fails every time. You are selling "snake oil".
Obviously, you missed the point and resorted to snipping.
God only reveals Himself through His creation (circumstantial) and not directly, hence the test of faith is on and not void.
Science excelled throughout its history in an effort to explain this existence in terms of its mechanics (physics,) and in terms of its origin. So far, science knows only so much of the physics of this existence yet not a single bit of its origin. The more science is progressing, the more it is showing that this existence can only be created by a supreme being that is outside of it that cannot be detected nor measured directly in empirical terms, and that it did not spring out of nothing all on its own. It starts with the logical deduction of the First Cause that can ONLY be outside of the beginning of this universe, let alone its realm. And the list goes on.
Vic
"The more science is progressing, the more it is showing that this existence can only be created by a supreme being that is outside of it that cannot be detected nor measured directly in empirical terms, and that it did not spring out of nothing all on its own"
That is a flat out lie. It is NOT showing that existance can ONLY be created by any such being.
Stop Lying. Science is not even pursuing the low possibility of any such creator.
You are assuming that you know the entire inside story of the Scientific Community and that all scientists are non-believers in God.
Vic, you're using classic "God of the Gaps". "We don't know, therefore "GOD DID IT". It's lazy thinking. And it's a STRETCH. You're reaching to make God real. C'mon Vic, be honest with how dishonest it is for anyone to take it seriously.
Mankind cannot use anything from those assertions. It's a concept of pure imagination.
If I called my god "Optimus" and he had a son named "Bubblebee" whom transformed into a man to sacrifice himself, to himself, because of laws he created himself....... then I told you to believe in him, or suffer eternally. Oh yeah, no way to prove it. You good with that?
Not right!
God did it all but we humans know only so much that "our knowledge is of the gaps!"
Just so you know, I laugh a great deal because of your witty verbiage before I get to briefly address the point of discussion.
Vic
I AM a member of the scientific community and I can tell you that no actual scientist is looking for any gods. We are looking for what IS, not what MIGHT be.
If one assumes there is a creator, it is a bias which throws it out of scientific method.
I work with believers, who aren't looking for any gods, and we NEVER assume there is.
You may be referring to creation "scientists" who are not scientists at all.
You have completely twisted the subject! I never said nor implied that the scientific community is looking for God, instead, I am referring to scientific discoveries are inevitably pointing more, little by little, to a creation by a supreme being.
No Vic...that is incorrect. We do not know is still correct. NOTHING is pointing more and more to any creator. No one in the science community should be saying anything along those lines. It would indicate that the scientist is showing a bias, invalidating anything that scientist said from that point out.
To say anything along those lines would be tantamount to career suicide.
'I am referring to scientific discoveries are inevitably pointing more, little by little, to a creation by a supreme being.'
Lies or delusion. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say delusion.
And according to Vic the being is who VIC ?
Science Works
He won't tell you who or why until you believe he exists. Flawless logic.
It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarreled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.
Look above Vic bent Dover.
LOL. Science reveals god? Which science? Could you please cite the scientific experiment that shows god exists?
Vic,its the old argument that if there is a clock,there must be a clockmaker.
Yup. It's the oldest fallacy in the book. We know a watch was designed because we've seen it done. We have blue prints, serial #s and brand names. We do not know the earth / universe / life was created, we've never observed this act. There are no serial #s, instructions or logos. There is no evidence at all to suggest earth or anything was designed by a creator. Making that first assumption that is was created is where creationists fail.