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 Congregation Or Hadash, a conservative Jewish synagogue built from a former auto body repair shop.
November 20th, 2013
12:11 PM ET
From auto shop to sacred spaceEditor's note: This story is part of CNN's American Journey series to show how old buildings around the United States have found new purposes and helped to build communities. Are there repurposed buildings in your community? Share the stories with CNN iReport and they could be featured in a CNN story. Sandy Springs, Georgia (CNN) - The old Chevrolet paint and body shop was vacant - 24,000 square feet of metal and concrete surrounded by a sea of asphalt. But when some members of Congregation Or Hadash saw it, they saw a home. Since it was founded in 2003, the conservative Jewish congregation had bounced from location to location outside Atlanta - a Methodist church, a windowless space in a school, any place they could rent or borrow as they grew. "Sometimes, from week to week, we didn't know exactly where we were going to be," said Fred Wachter, president of the congregation and a member since its early years. "All the while ... we probably walked every piece of available property and real estate in Sandy Springs, trying to find something, anything, that would look like it." FULL STORY
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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You mean to tell me,
that a Jewish zombie can make me live forever,
if I telepathically accept him
as my master…
all because a talking snake convinced a woman created by one rib
to eat from a magical tree?
Really???
@ Rainer: and yet you exist in the first place... and you didn't make yourself...
what sort of magic is that?
if everything must have a creator then who or what created your god? if you say that your god is infinite, then why can't the universe just be infinite?
@ Dyslexic:
1) i didn't say everything has to have a creator. that's a self-refuting statement.
2) the problem for your infinite universe theory is entropy. why is there order if everything is ultimately chaos? why does purpose arise at all? as i wrote to you yesterday (b/f the thread suddenly disappeared), if the universe is purposeless, why do you feel the need to create your own purpose? it runs directly contrary to reality. in such an existence, either nature is broken or we are.
You're thinking about the law of causality. It doesn't say that "everything" requires a creator... It goes something like this:
However concrete physical reality is sectioned up, the result will be a state of affairs which owes its being to something other than itself. Every physical state, no matter how inclusive, has a necessary condition in some specific type of state which precedes it in time and is fully existent prior to the emergence of the state in which it conditions. There is not one example in the physical universe of a physical quant.ity that explains its own existence.
Furthermore, there cannot exist an infinite series of causes in time because infinitely long causal chains do not exist, they are a paradox – if there were an infinite series of causes, then it couldn’t explain how the causal chain began in the first place.
L of A,
But we can’t explain how the causal chain began in the first place – you do not understand and say "a god must have done it". There is no reason why the singularity cannot just exist if a god can just exist. And there's evidence of the singularity but not for a god.
It's called the magic of Science! Oh my, that must scare you. It's OK. There are books, classes, even people you can talk to about how the world works and what makes it up. Things you can SEE, not invisible sky gods that ignore you when you pray...
@ Rainer: no, it's not. science does *nothing* to explain existence. it merely describes it. i ask you about the foundations, and you describe the walls.
as i said to Dyslexic yesterday, science operates with methodological naturalism. you are conflating that with philosophical naturalism. science purposefully avoids making that leap of faith. you, however, have turned science into a faith.
as Nietzsche said: "it is still a metaphysical faith that underlies our faith in science."
@ russ…your babble means nothing. They are words telling other people they are wrong, while all the while you have no way to prove your god exists.
Have you ever studies the chaos theory? Have you even taken a science class, or was that forbidden in your home-schooling?
Ignorance is not bliss. Answering everything with another question to disprove someone isn't useful or even helpful, it simply makes you look more ignorant.
Because the universe "is", we have evidence of God's existence, (natural revelation) but objective, verifiable proofs of His existence cannot be obtained, because the tools that we have at our disposal for proving or disproving anything are not applicable to certain things. We just accept that they just "are."
Here’s an example:
Are the laws of physics an agent unto themselves, or are they contingent? If they are an agent unto themselves, how do you know, and is there verifiable, objective proofs for their agency?
The reality is that the laws of physics do most certainly exist, however there is no verifiable, objective test to prove that they are either an agency unto themselves or contingent – we just accept that they just “are.”
@ Jenifer: you are actually proving my point. chaos theory runs directly contrary to Hume's refusal to concede the "improbability" of miracles. chaos theory is entirely contingent on the improbable. to follow Hume's rejection of miracles on the basis that they are improbable requires also rejecting chaos theory. so, do you reject the last 30 years in science? or do you embrace the improbable?
L of A
"Because the universe "is", we have evidence of God's existence, (natural revelation) but objective, verifiable proofs of His existence cannot be obtained, because the tools that we have at our disposal for proving or disproving anything are not applicable to certain things. We just accept that they just "are." "
No. Because the universe "is", we have evidence of the universe's existence – nothing else. You're right that there are no objective, verifiable proofs of a god's existence – so it only exists in your mind. Not convincing by any means.
The design of the ark is cool the architects and members have done an amazing job in transforming a vacant space to something sacred for the glory of God Almighty!
LOL!
This is great that members of the 'Congregation Or Hadash' have found a new place to worship!
Shabbat Shalom!
For god so loved the world that he drowned everyone and everything on it.
You cannot love without also hating. God loves righteousness, therefore He hates unrighteousness. The flood – and death in general – is but a temporal reminder of God's future wrath to come in dealing with sins once and for all. Therefore, when you see death, let it always be a reminder to repent.
Wow, sounds like you wrote your own little bible there. God is Alpha and Omega. He is unchangeable and only good. If you find hatred in your world, for your god, then you don't worship the same one the original Christians worshipped.
No, I just paraphrased scripture... The Bible teaches that God is good, yes, but a part of that goodness is a righteous hatred for what is unrighteous.
Psalm 11:5 – The LORD tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates.
And there are many more passages like this one...
Uh huh. See, paraphrasing is what led to ALL the different sects of Christianity today. You obviously have a watered down, cult version of it that is unknown to the majority of real Christians.
What kind of person are you, arabia, that loves a god that hates his offspring? Sickening.
Did you know that when the Apostles quoted from the Old Testament, they paraphrased it, and rarely gave the address to their quotation?
Abraham,
We are not all God's children. The scriptures talk of those who are unsaved as "children of wrath." God loves everyone with a general love that is evidenced by the many blessings that they receive in this life, but there is a special kind of love that is reserved for His own. To the person who rejects God until death, to them is reserved a hatred of sin that will evidence itself in punishment. (Revelation 20:15)
@ arabia, you sound like a psycho, picking and reinterpreting the bible to suit your anger and hatred. You're the kind of person that loves to hate people, thinking, "oh they'll get theirs by the hand of my god!"
God created all of humanity, not a few select, not a few condemned. You do belong to a cult. Good luck with that.
Did you know that the bible was written in the 1600's by King James I, a gay man, I might add (look it up) and there is absolutely NO proof of original texts by any apostles of jesus. No wonder you believe anything someone writes about your religion.
So you're new to textual criticism then? It's a fascinating study actually, one that I have spent over 2 decades in, and read dozens of authors on the subject. When you get deeper into the study, you'll find out the truth. Or were you just typing that to mock and jeer?
Gutenberg bible was printed C.1455 so your statement is already wrong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0zWbL8Uqfw
It's Georgia. They'd turn an abandoned hen house into a church if they could.
There's a church in just about every community here in North GA. It's wonderful!
Yawn.
Who cares arabia? Your buildings means nothing to God.
I know that, I didn't say they did. It's just comforting to me though to see how available houses of worship are to many of the communities around here. By contrast, I worked restoration duties after hurricane Sandy, and we spent time in Manhatten, New Jersey, and various spot in Maryland and PA, and it was rare to see a church up there... Very rare in New York actually.
Stroke that ego arabia…tell everybody that you helped with Sandy. I think your got tells you to not wear that on your sleeve.
If religion only makes you feel safe and big, you're not even a part of the real world. Outside your little community of georgia, life goes on. Discoveries are made, billions of people worship other gods and everyone finds happiness without christianity.
Stop trolling arabia, you're embarrassing yourself.
How is that trolling? Because you don't agree with my comment?
We're THANKFUL that there are fewer churches here in New York state! Fewer simpletons, advanced thinking and freedom of being. In your area you're confined by what men tell you that god supposedly told them.
LOL.
Rainer,
I get the impression that your idea of a Christian is but a caricature of what a true Christian looks like. Look at the writings of Jonathan Edwards – would you call him a simpleton? His is one of the greatest minds that this country ever produced.
Arabia, I don't have any intention to look for yet another man that happens to write his opinion of his view of christianity. Just like someone told you above – you're a cult aspect of christianity. You're making up your own rules (or your leader is) as you go.
Joseph Smith did the same thing to create mormonism. Now there are 7 million mormons that believe they will become gods, and that's nowhere to be found in the Bible.
Rainer,
That's fine, then using the Bible, show me where I have erred.
Churches are rare in New York City?
The city houses the largest cathedral in the world – Episcopal Church of St John the Divine.
There are around 2,000 Christian Churches (and 4,000 more informal houses of worship), 1,000 synagogues and 100 mosques.
It was just an observation – I don't know the actual numbers... Actually, I don't know what I was expecting to see walking around Times Square, but one thing was for sure, I felt REALLY out of place! (and no one could understand me when I talked, now that was funny!)
Here in GA, you see a church about ever few miles just driving around in any random direction. In BEAUTIFUL Maryland, and PA – at least in the parts I saw, that wasn't the case.
I meant no offense, as I said, it was just a personal observation from about a 2 week stay up north of Mason-Dixon.
Arabia, it must stun you that there is a world outside your little hamlet of churches. Imagine the rest of us going on without god telling us what to do every step of the way.
Christians will never cease to depress me. Such blind, ignorant faith. Sometimes I wish it were that easy. Ah, if only christians had a brain.
@ LofA
Well, when I was in Georgia a while back, I felt pretty out of place too. Especially when a gas station attendant said "Have a nice day." Only he didn't say nice day, he said "Have a n***** kickin' day."
I found people like that "ever few miles in any direction".
JW
Are JWs a "Cult"?
The term “cult” means different things to different people. However, consider two common perceptions regarding cults and why those perceptions don’t apply to us.
Some think of a cult as being a new or unorthodox religion. Jehovah’s Witnesses have not invented a new religion. On the contrary, we pattern our worship after that of the first-century Christians, whose example and teachings were recorded in the Bible. (2 Timothy 3:16, 17) We believe that the Holy Scriptures should be the authority on what is orthodox in matters of worship.
Some think of a cult as being a dangerous religious sect with a human leader. Jehovah’s Witnesses do not look to any human as their leader. Rather, we adhere to the standard that Jesus set for his followers when he stated: “Your Leader is one, the Christ.”—Matthew 23:10.
Far from being a dangerous cult, Jehovah’s Witnesses practice a religion that benefits its members and others in the community. For example, our ministry has helped many people to overcome harmful addictions, such as the abuse of drugs and alcohol. In addition, we conduct literacy classes around the world, helping thousands learn to read and write. And we are actively involved in disaster relief. We work hard to have a positive impact on others, just as Jesus commanded his followers to do.—Matthew 5:13-16.
November 21, 2013 at 9:23 pm | Report abuse | Reply
Robert Brown
JW, I don't know much about JW's, but from our conversation last night, I suspect you have a problem with the trinity.
November 21, 2013 at 9:50 pm | Report abuse | Reply
JW
I dont agree with the trinity dogma:
In The Encyclopedia Americana we read: “Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”—(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.
November 21, 2013 at 9:58 pm | Report abuse | Reply
Robert Brown
And yet you believe Jesus is the son of God and there is a Holy Spirit?
November 21, 2013 at 10:06 pm | Report abuse |
Robert Brown
How do you interpret 1 John 5: 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
November 21, 2013 at 10:12 pm | Report abuse |
Tom, Tom, the Other One
You should familiarize yourself with the Johannine Comma, Robert. That verse is often excluded from the main text and kept in that form, if at all, in a footnote.
November 21, 2013 at 10:24 pm | Report abuse |
JW
Yes i do believe is the SON of God and in the holy spirit... Meaning Jesus is separated from JEhovah God and the holy spirit
November 21, 2013 at 10:25 pm | Report abuse |
JW
1 john 5:7
KJ reads: “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.” (Dy also includes this Trinitarian passage.) However, NW does not include the words “in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth.” (RS, NE, TEV, JB, NAB also leave out the Trinitarian passage.)
November 21, 2013 at 10:27 pm | Report abuse |
JW
1 john 5:7
This text is not found in any of the early Greek manuscripts and has obviously been added to bolster the Trinity doctrine. Most modern translations, both Catholic and Protestant, do not include these words in the main body of the text.—1 John 1:1, 2.*
November 21, 2013 at 10:30 pm | Report abuse |
Tom, Tom, the Other One
The Eastern Orthodox Church, in their version of the Nicene Creed hints of a different nature of the godhead:
"(I believe) in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life,Who proceeds from the Father."
rather than the more common
"We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
November 21, 2013 at 10:37 pm | Report abuse |
JW
Tom tom – The fact is that, i find it more then enough to simply read and study the bible to know that Jehovah God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are separate from each other...these quotes that you and me included help a little more, but a 5 year old if reading the bible can say that God and Jesus are separate!
November 21, 2013 at 10:41 pm | Report abuse |
Robert Brown
John 10:30
I and my Father are one
November 21, 2013 at 10:45 pm | Report abuse |
Tom, Tom, the Other One
I'm impartial, JW. The doctrines are interesting and I want to know why people believe what they do. But I'm not troubled by belief in gods, so, as they say, I don't have a dog in this fight.
November 21, 2013 at 10:49 pm | Report abuse |
JW
Robert – John 10:30
Read this passage:
John 17:21,22 – "so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one."
Jesus prayed to God, that his disciples may be in union with Jesus and the Father, so all can be one....Would you conclude that Jesus disciples are part of the trinity as well?
And if Jesus is God, then why is he praying to himself?
November 21, 2013 at 10:55 pm | Report abuse |
Aaron
"I and my Father are one"
Wasn't that like a line from the flick Chinatown?
November 21, 2013 at 10:56 pm | Report abuse |
Tom, Tom, the Other One
Robert, a little bit later on in John Jesus uses the same word for one (ἕν) exhorting his disciples to be one in the same way Jesus and the Father are one. What would you make of that?
November 21, 2013 at 10:58 pm | Report abuse |
JW
Tom – So you do not affiliate with any organization? What captures your interest in knowing what others think about God? I just find it interesting, because its rare, if you are not part of some church to be interested in conversations like these.
November 21, 2013 at 10:58 pm | Report abuse |
JW
LOL..come on Aaron...we were having a good chat here and you just spoiled the line of conversation... lol
November 21, 2013 at 11:00 pm | Report abuse |
Robert Brown
Tom & JW, I went and read about the comma, first I've heard of it. Also, I can see what you mean about one being in agreement or together. I believe God the father, Jesus, & the Holy Spirit are separate persons of God, but I understand where you are coming from. You guys have a great night.
November 21, 2013 at 11:10 pm | Report abuse |
Tom, Tom, the Other One
Religious people make claims about things, apparently quite honestly, that have very little to do with the things I experience, JW. It is as if I lack something they have, or as if I have something they lack. I am interested in people that are different from me.
November 21, 2013 at 11:16 pm | Report abuse |
JW
Goodnight Rob, it was great to have a nice and health dialogue with you! And thank you for presenting your points as well.
November 21, 2013 at 11:17 pm | Report abuse |
JW
Tom- very interesting. It seems that you believe in God and have knowledge of the scriptures... What has blocked you from adhering to a religious organization? Is it because you don't trust religious organizations, or is it because you feel you can worship God by your own?
November 21, 2013 at 11:22 pm | Report abuse |
JW
"The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the tiitle the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299."
November 21, 2013 at 10:00 pm | Report abuse | Reply
Tom, Tom, the Other One
Tertullian was the early church father that first defined the trinity as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That was sometime before 225 ce.
It seems trinitarianism was a common belief in the 3rd century, more so in the 4th and universal by the 5th. The Athanasian Creed was written in the 5th Century in response to various criticisms of the doctrine – it defines the current doctrine of the trinity.
November 21, 2013 at 10:19 pm | Report abuse |
JW
The Trinity dogma was included already in a time when the church was already corrupt as predicted by Jesus and Peter and others.
Acts 20:29,30: "I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you+ and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves."
November 21, 2013 at 10:36 pm | Report abuse |
The Father is God:
Philippians 1:2, 4:20, Romans 1:7
The Son is God:
John 1:1, 14, Colossians 2:9, Hebrews 1:8, Psalm 45:6-7, T.itus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1
The Holy Spirit is God:
Acts 5:3-4, 2 Corinthians 3:17-18
The Father is Creator:
Isaiah 64:8, 44:24, Psalm 100:3
The Son is Creator:
Colossians 1:15-17
The Holy Spirit is Creator:
Job 33:4, 26:13, Psalm 104:30
The Father is Eternal:
Psalm 90:2
The Son is Eternal:
Micah 5:1-2, Revelation 1:17
The Holy Spirit is Eternal:
Romans 8:11, Hebrews 9:14
John 10:30, 33 – Father and Son are one
1 Corinthians 3:16 – Father and Spirit are one
Acts 5:1-4 – The Holy Spirit and God are one
Romans 8:9 – Son and the Spirit are one
John 14:16, 18, 23, 26 – Father, Son, and Spirit are one
2 Corinthians 13:14 – Paul blesses using all three persons of the Trinity
Romans 15:16, 30 – Spells out the Triune God
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 – Spells out the Triune God
Ephesians 2:18 – Spells out the Triune God
Matthew 3:16-17 – At Christ’s baptism, all three Persons were simultaneously active, with the Son being baptized, the Spirit descending, and the Father speaking from Heaven.
Good for you! You believe in a book that was written by a bunch of silly men. How's that working out for ya?
He looks solid to me. Grounded, so to speak.
Why are you so bitter? I didn't say anything offensive, and you begin by mocking?
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
A vision from heaven:
Acts 7:55- "But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand" note: Jesus is standing at the right hand of God.
Hopefully this heavenly vision helps you understand properly the scriptures you posted!
Well, don't stop there!! Do tell.
Yes, now look at the verse you quoted and cross reference Psalm 110:1 – "The LORD says to my LORD, sit at My right hand until..."
David calls them both "LORD"
Cross reference Psalm 110:1 with these:
Matthew 26:64; Mark 16:19; Acts 2:34-47; 1 Corinthians 15:25; Hebrews 1:13; Hebrews 10:13
Many bibles translate it as :" jehovah saith to my lord.." American standard Version
"LORD to my LORD" is a trinitarian biased translation. That doesn't make sense anyways... It would be like saying: " YOU said to YOU, sit at my right hand.." Does this even make sense?
And how can The Lord be talking to himself if he's saying, sit at my right hand?
Paul was blinded by the light. If Jesus ain't God why isn't He blinded in that vision?? The blinded Jesus stood up!!
JW,
"Jehovah" isn't actually God's name... It's an English rendering of the Tetragrammaton
Exodus 3:14 – God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
In the Hebrew Bible the Tetragrammaton (meaning “four letters”) is written as יהוה with the English transliteration of “YHWH.” The original pronunciation of YHWH was lost many centuries ago since devout Jews would avoid speaking it out of reverence, but the available evidence indicates that it was in all likelihood “Yahweh,” meaning approximately "he causes to be" or "he creates.”
The form "Jehovah" originated when the Masoretes introduced vowels into the Biblical Hebrew in order to assist reading – since ancient Hebrew was originally written in all consonants – and attached them to the Tetragrammaton. The vowels that they used were those from the word "Adonai," meaning “My Lord.” If the previous or next word in the text already was "Adonai" or "Adoni", as "Elohim" ("God"), this combination produces יְהֹוָה and יֱהֹוִה, non-words that would spell "yehovah" and "yehovih."
The popularization of the English hybrid "Jehovah" resulted from a corruption of the original words when Peter Gallatin in 1520 published this form as a combination of “YHWH” and “Adonai” that produced “Yehowah,” where the word “Jehovah” was derived as an Anglicized form of Yehowah.
Although Christians have no prohibition on vocalizing the Tetragrammaton, in most Christian translations of the Bible, the word "LORD" is used in place of the Tetragrammaton, and is often written with small capitals (or in all caps) to distinguish it from other words translated as "Lord".
JW,
Did you also look up those cross references to Psalm 110:1 that I listed?
Jehovah is not Gods name"...
The old English versions of the bible had it as Jehovah.... Who ever have the authority to take that name away from the new versions, only those translators know...
How do you know the name Jesus is pronouced Jesus in English... Translating it from Hebrew? Though you don't dought in using it...
Still psalm 110:1 is YHWH ( jehovah) said to my lord, sit at my right hand" there's a higher identiity giving orders to Jesus.
Ya I read your references... It continues to prove that Jesus is subordinated to the almighty God Jehovah.
About God name, when YHWH is there and you replace it by LORd there making a huge mistake... Hidding the Holy name from people and making it seem that God is Jesus... When Jesus actually worshipped and prayed to jehovah.
JW,
If you do not believe that Jesus is God, then I'm worried that you have fallen into the trap of Arianism.
> If you do not believe that Jesus is God, but was merely a "perfect human" then there is no atonement for sins. Besides, if Jesus wasn't God, then He couldn't have been perfect, because Romans 3:10 and Mark 10:18 tell us that there is NONE righteous, not even one, and there is none good but God alone.
> Do you believe that Jesus was Michael? The writer of Hebrews debunks that idea in Hebrews 1:1-14. Also, in Jude 8-9, we see a scenario where Michael cannot rebuke Satan, and instead prays that "The LORD rebuke you!" So, if Michael was Jesus, then He WOULD be able to do so. Also, Revelation 22:8-9 and Colossians 2:18-19 tells us not to worship angels.
So what are you left with then? Modalism? But this has also been debunked by scripture, and you would be aligning yourself with false teachers like T.D. Jakes.
And...
If you worship Jesus, but you don't believe that He is God, then you are a practicing idolater by worshipping something that is not God. Romans 1:18-32 talks about this in that people worship "the creature, rather than the Creator."
Like Jesus, Adam was perfect as well... Do you think Adam was God?
The term god could mean " something Devine", "godlike".. For example satan is called, " the god of this world" is he the true God?
Read Psalm chapter 82. Who are the gods there? Are the gods the psalm talks about part of a trinity? In what sense are they called gods?
Jesus the creator,
"Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"
Look at these passages:
Matt 17:5- who's voice came from heaven?
Matt 4:10- Jesus was quoting from Deut 6:13 and 10:20... Who did he tell satan to worship?
Lol- compare that scripture with John 1:10 and Heb 1:2.
JW,
"Like Jesus, Adam was perfect as well... Do you think Adam was God?"
--
There's a difference between "perfect" and "sinless." Adam was sinless in the garden of eden, but he had the capacity to sin, therefore he was no perfect. This also gets into another philosophical question – COULD Jesus have sinned even in His incarnation? Answer, no. The Son was to bring about the redemption of the elect, and this was decreed before the foundation of the world. Therefore Jesus did not have the ability to sin since redemption could only be obtained through a sinless sacrifice. Ergo, Adam was sinless for a time, but not perfect, since he sinned in time. Jesus was sinless and perfect.
"The term god could mean " something Devine", "godlike".. For example satan is called, " the god of this world" is he the true God? Read Psalm chapter 82. Who are the gods there? Are the gods the psalm talks about part of a trinity? In what sense are they called gods?"
--
Psalm 82 was spoken to ungodly rulers who were on the very brink of judgment, for they showed partiality to the wicked, and in their own minds, they had made gods out of themselves because of the power of their office... As judges of the people, they were to represent God in judging Israel. They were to judge the people as if God were judging them in righteousness. But they had become proud, and showed favoritism to the ungodly. The psalmist made it clear to them that they were not gods, for he immediately said, "But you shall die like men" (v. 7). It is the Holy God alone he appeals to in saying, "Arise, O God, judge the earth" (v. 8).
The key to unlock any scripture is the scripture itself. Take everything in context, and the context of all of scripture is that Jesus is God. God the Father is God, and God, the Holy Spirit is God.
Did not Thomas call Jesus "My Lord, and My God!"
JW,
As much as I am enjoying our conversation, I'm worried that given this format, we're not going to get anywhere... This is the type of conversation best had over a cheeseburger, ya' know?
Let's have a cheeseburger then... Joking! I have to stop as well... I'm using my cell and my battery is dying. But go speaking with u. Will keep it up another time!
JW,
Later!
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
Lawrence- note that we think of Jesus as someone very important in Gods arraignments. Heb 1:2 says that God appointed him as the heir of his kingdom, and the bible indicates that he will help humanity to reach perfection. Though in 1 Cor 15:28,29, Jesus is seen giving in a time his crown back to jehovah God. Showing Jesus humbleness, and shoeing us that the higher power is Jehovah.
Educratists make a leap when they say creeds invented the triunity of God. They appear lazy and just go along to get along with the original gubmint official church. You know how gubmint workers are.
Cultists are like fascists. They are alwayz the "other guy". SCOTUS is a cult.
Some american cultures sacrificed girl virgins to the sun god. SCOTUS sacrifices male and female virgins to the Educratist god.
Today, we call that abortion.
@ LofA
Stop lying to promote your cult. Today we call that a human sacrifice, because humans were killed. They weren't embryos or fetuses.
You know the statistics on who gets the most abortions in the USA, right? They've been posted here many times.
lol??
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lol??
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lol??
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JW's Russell, from http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/513182/Charles-Taze-Russell
"..............By the time he was 20, Russell had left both Presbyterianism and Congregationalism because he could not reconcile the idea of an eternal hell with God’s mercy. He had drifted into skepticism when a chance encounter with some followers of the Adventist movement begun by William Miller introduced him to the idea that the Bible could be used to predict God’s plan of salvation, especially as the plan related to the end of the world.............."
A&A's are not so hot on hell, either. Maybe they'll start up some pwogwessive doctrines, too!!
All of JW and Robert's discussion on the trinity has been stripped out – a good, civil, discussion between a trinitarian and a Jehovah Witness.
I suppose then that anyone is free to participate in the belief blog, just so long as your belief is the same as the CNN moderators.
Since both believers and non-believers posts get deleted, your assertion seems incorrect.
Then I'm curious why a civil conversation would have been deleted?
All it takes is one troll with multiple screen names to report abuse – as to why, I doubt even WordPress could explain.
LofA why can your deity figure it out and tell you ?
Hey LofA
The deleting is happening on other treads too, looks like pages are being deleted.
Threads not treads.
here is one that got deleted .
lol?? No
Tthe RCC is the destructive force with their biblical stand on procreation.
When they supposedly understand evolution.
Psalm 1:
1 Blessed is the man
Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly,
Nor stands in the path of sinners,
Nor sits in the seat of the scornful;
2 But his delight is in the law of the Lord,
And in His law he meditates day and night.
3 He shall be like a tree
Planted by the rivers of water,
That brings forth its fruit in its season,
Whose leaf also shall not wither;
And whatever he does shall prosper.
4 The ungodly are not so,
But are like the chaff which the wind drives away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment,
Nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the Lord knows the way of the righteous,
But the way of the ungodly shall perish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dmKI88ACitM
Amen.
What is the category of this Psalm?
Psalm,
I'm sure that the rhapsodic language in these psongs and psonnets gives you a thrill.
They say nothing regarding the legitimacy or reality of this "God" character from old Israeli writings, anymore than "One-Eyed, One-Horned Flying Purple People Eater" proves aliens.
Why can't we ever get any interesting trolls on this blog? I don't care what you think or how you structure your ideas, but please be the tiniest bit interesting.
One creampuff article every couple of days–man the Belief Blog editors have it posh. I could train a monkey to do that job.
You just need some corn squeezins to set you upright. Theys the only thing with the right vit-a-mins you need.
Theists or not,-Life is...
Life is good.
Im getting tired of these blogs...I should ve listened to momma and continue to play hide in seek with my boyfriends... 🙁
Answer is just another little Ocean playing both sides.
Ahh the religious cunts with their trolling name and attempts to steal.. gotta love it.
Well, aren't you so mature, calling everyone cunts and all.
Freak.
Asshole.
I'd like ten pounds of fuck, please...
Oh why such great punishment? SO great?
If I could at least remember then perhaps I would slap my own back and slash myself.
All I can see now is shadow.
All I want is sleep.
The Hell, Earth. Why this place?
Such loveliness allowed while we bask in the suffering.
Where does such cruelty manifest?
Who would seek worship on this shipwreck?
Have you religious freaks ever figured out "why" only "St. Peter" is the only one with a job?
They haven't even figured out that the disciples could not have faith because they had direct evidence, yet they demand we accept without evidence what the disciples needed evidence for to join.
That brings up an interesting point. Thomas supposedly said that he didn't believe Jesus rose from the dead, but would be persuaded by physical proof. Jesus then appeared to him, provided physical proof and Thomas believed. Jesus' comment on this was "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." John 20:29
Jesus did not condemn Thomas and I've never heard anyone say Thomas went to hell for his unbelief. And Thomas demanded physical proof. Why would a just god condemn anyone else for asking for the same thing?
This is the wiki on the pearly gates:
~~~
The pearly gates is an informal name for the gateway to Heaven according to some Christian denominations. It is inspired by the description of the New Jerusalem in Book of Revelation 21:21
. The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate being made from a single pearl.[1]
The image of the gates in popular culture is a set of large, white or wrought-iron gates in the clouds, guarded by Saint Peter (the keeper of the "keys to the kingdom"). Those not fit to enter heaven are denied entrance at the gates, and descend into Hell.[2]
~~~ You gotta love what they profess to know.
Where is the garbage in that wiki? Everywhere.
: But you can never get a religious freak to give you a proper reply on where and how – in heaven – the garbage gets taken care of.
Hey, where's your column on the Costco Bibles labeled as fiction? Correctly labeled, to my thinking.
every 10 minutes an atheist posts a link
Every minute that goes by a religious freak will post up a babble quote.
That is why you come here so often.
Ya I'm online 48 hours of the day. ~snicker~
You religious freaks have all the time to figure out that everyone must be online at CNN simply because you want to say it. Go on tell us more of who is online at all hours and inform us.
Costco just lost another customer for toadying to the crazy fucks over their crazy shit and taking the book out of the fiction section just because one or two slobbering idiots started whining loudly like nails on a chalkboard.
I know what you mean, but it's not a Costco issue.
The Bible is classified in the Dewey Decimal System under 200-Religion (220)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dewey_Decimal_classes#Class_200_.E2.80.93_Religion -
*note it's not under History or Science or even Philosophy.
Maybe it should be Literature – Fiction, but you'll need to take that up with someone else other than Costco.
Yesterday morning there was a knock at my door. A pleasant and enthusiastic young couple were there.
John: "Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary."
Mary: "Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's ass with us."
Me: "Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss His ass?"
John: "If you kiss Hank's ass, He'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, He'll kick the guts out of you."
Me: "What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"
John: "Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do whatever He wants, and what He wants is to give you a million dollars, but He can't until you kiss His ass."
Me: "That doesn't make any sense. Why..."
Mary: "Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the ass?"
Me: "Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."
John: "Then come kiss Hank's ass with us."
Me: "Do you kiss Hank's ass often?"
Mary: "Oh yes, all the time..."
Me: "And has He given you a million dollars?"
John: "Well no. You don't actually get the money until you leave town."
Me: "So why don't you just leave town now?"
Mary: "You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and He kicks the guts out of you."
Me: "Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's ass, left town, and got the million dollars?"
John: "My mother kissed Hank's ass for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money."
Me: "Haven't you talked to her since then?"
John: "Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."
Me: "So what makes you think He'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the money?"
Mary: "Well, maybe you'll get a raise, maybe you'll win a small lotto, maybe you'll just find a twenty-dollar bill on the street."
Me: "What's that got to do with Hank?"
John: "In this town, Hank is the same as good luck. All good things are attributed to Hank'"
Me: "I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."
John: "But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's ass He'll kick the guts out of you."
Me: "Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to Him, get the details straight from Him..."
Mary: "No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank."
Me: "Then how do you kiss His ass?"
John: "Sometimes we just blow Him a kiss, and think of His ass. Other times we kiss Karl's ass, and he passes it on."
Me: "Who's Karl?"
Mary: "A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's ass. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."
Me: "And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss His ass, and that Hank would reward you?"
John: "Oh no! Karl has a letter he got from Hank years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself."
From the Desk of Karl
1. Kiss Hank's ass and He'll give you a million dollars when you leave town.
2. Use alcohol in moderation.
3. Kick the guts out of people who aren't like you.
4. Eat right.
5. Hank dictated this list Himself.
6. The moon is made of green cheese.
7. Everything Hank says is right.
8. Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
9. Don't use alcohol.
10. Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
11. Kiss Hank's ass or He'll kick the guts out of you.
Me: "This appears to be written on Karl's letterhead."
Mary: "Hank didn't have any paper."
Me: "I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting."
John: "Of course, Hank dictated it."
Me: "I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"
Mary: "Not now, but years ago He would talk to some people."
Me: "I thought you said He was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the guts out of people just because they're different?"
Mary: "It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."
Me: "How do you figure that?"
Mary: "Item 7 says 'Everything Hank says is right.' That's good enough for me!"
Me: "Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."
John: "No way! Item 5 says 'Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides, item 2 says 'Use alcohol in moderation,' Item 4 says 'Eat right,' and item 8 says 'Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too."
Me: "But 9 says 'Don't use alcohol.' which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6 says 'The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong."
John: "There's no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far as 6 goes, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."
Me: "Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock..."
Mary: "But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from out of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."
Me: "I'm not really an expert, but not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it plausible that it might be made of cheese."
John: "Ha! You just admitted that scientists don’t know everything, but we know Hank is always right!"
Me: "We do?"
Mary: "Of course we do, Item 7 says so."
Me: "You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying 'Hank's right because He says He's right.'"
John: "Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking."
Me: "But...oh, never mind.
from Jhuger.com
all of the above replies are by the same person changing names. LOL Pitiful.
Dd,
Mine wasn't. And I took Irony's post to be a reinforcement of yours.
The religious nut job ~ always trying their emotional games. Always failing.
"You must be empty.. then come unto my god. Make sure you don't follow those other gods because I said my god is the true god."
"You'll be saved by my god only. It's my promise because I'm so stupid to dismiss all the other gods and accept only my own. It should be yours too. Remember you'll be saved by my god only. I promise that I'm not a flea bag liar when I'm telling you to believe me."
Why are you here my son? What evil do you bring into my house monster? Are you here now to cling to my robes? Are you here now to weep before me? Do you beg forgiveness or do you seek company with the only heavenly being that knows your heart?
Yes, I have been out tonight tasting your fruit if you know what I mean you old carnal bastard...Genius, master, maker of my death. That is you! But I love you don’t I??
You have made death for yourself. You can now wrap yourself in the misery of your own making and loving. Sinister and dark. You crawl from beneath your own foul skin, consuming the meat and wearing the package. Is that why you smell so bad brother? Is that why death is on your breath?
Are you hungry? Then go and grab something to eat.
Are you pulling an emotional heart-string or making up a drama over the internet? Don't.
YOU have wrought all this with the upmost absurdity you sickly ghost. See me? LOOK! Look sweetheart. The delicious plump temptation of ME! Who can say no?
Look sweetheart you are a failure. Try another religion.
Oh yah ~ they're failures also. Gotta laugh at all you freaks.
I can…
I just want to give YOU a carpet to walk on don’t I? Sticky and sweet and neat for your feet!
It is past the time, purveyor of mold, have you something to share? What grotesque misrepresentation of man have you sniffed with your snotty beak??
Well…..since you asked nice.
Troll and troll some more. Til you freaks get your high.
The more you troll the less your religion becomes. So I do encourage your trolling.
Heaven is a place in Hell.
A place where Angels and Demons dwell.
The bell rings, the Devil Swings and on God’s throne he begins to dwell.
Looking through space and time the duality of the immortals shine.
The singing begins and the song is one of the infinite.
Universes are sung, galaxies too.
Star and planet, me and you.
But we can hear the singing not.
For we are here on this planet caught.
The web we weave to cry and deceive.
Robs us of our own immortal lot.
Oh she was jealous yes but it hardly occurred to her that there was anything much to it. Trust and be trusted, that is what Mom always told her. No one likes people who are needy and always looking for approval. Well, at least no one likes women that way…right?
Still your jealous imagination suspects there is a spark between them. Sometimes, the nose knows….other times you observe them, holding their gaze just a….beat…too….long. Your face flushes, heart rushes, ears burning heart yearning table turning fact and fiction….concurring? So what must you do lovey? Lovey dovey honey where have you been tonight? What is that I smell? Did you pick…up….the groceries? I gave YOU the list. We don’t have any cereal for the kid’s breakfast tomorrow. No bagels, no milk you prick.
So pitiful and painful and full of un-fullness aren’t you my love?
Don’t worry dear, we will take the kids. Won’t we take the kids?
You go do what you have to do. Daddy is home.
The heart is fragile, tormentor. And so it must be, for only the delicate palette can discern the subtle flavors of the gift of brightness. Why have you come with your tunic full of brittle bones? If you do not seek enlightenment, then what enlightenment can you give? Do you delight in this tragedy? Have you made it so?
You cannot deceive a deceiver you obese midget. I am a meat and potatoes man. Our gifts are meant to be given and taken back, like rain dripping to form puddles, then evaporating to become hovering splatter bags overhead. Sweat from cooking flesh. Stick out your tongue!!
I should expect nothing more from one who can see only what is on his plate. See this woman for more than empty impulse, animated atoms in space that are no longer burning in a furnace. Staccato marimba dancing like a cardboard scarecrow. She is the life and the making of all things. She is the universe you seek! I beg you now, take my robes!
She danced
Each jewel on her gown flying outward
Perhaps never to return
Each shiny gem in a cloud of total darkness
She danced and she sang
Her gown twirling like a pinwheel faster and faster still
Soon to become many
And many to become light
And that light to become trillions of sparkles
Still she danced
And now the swirls were as giants dancing
And the dancing giants would collide in beautiful confusion
And forever the spinning would last
Unless it stopped.
I love when the same person has a three-way conversation with himself using three different names. Nooooo , not disturbing in the least.
It ain't easy.
f your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat;
if he is thirsty, give him water to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head,
and the Lord will reward you.
When a religious freak is drowning offer them more water.
Apparently Trish has no problem with this idea of harming other, but DOES have a problem with offering forgiveness and compassion to someone who has harmed you. 🙁
What are you talking about? Where have I harmed you, Wisdom?
Do you typically rush to judgement about a person who has posted to you exactly three times, including this post?
When you tell me how I have harmed you with my whopping three comments, I'll address it.
Although I expect to hear crickets. It's much easier to just throw flame bombs, isn't it?
Why you you be rewarded for throwing hot coals on a hungry thirsty person? Seems a little cruel to me.
The picture of putting coals on a person's head initially sounds like a picture of causing burning pain, but it really is not. Instead, it seems to be a picture of stirring up the coals of a fire to rouse it back to life again. It is a picture of stirring within a person a response of remorse, when they see your kindness in the face of their meanness. This must also be the sense of Paul's passage – we cause our enemies to be remorseful for their actions toward us, and in doing so we overcome evil by doing good.
"Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. Romans 12:17-21 "
Ah. The old "cruel to be kind" ploy. Nice explanation. Paul would know, having been one of the cruel ones.
No, actually Jesus said living like that doesn't cut it. You've got to change.
how can you possibly speak about "what jesus said"?!?!
The King James version of the new testament was completed in 1611 by 8 members of the church of England. There were (and still are) NO original texts to translate. The oldest manuscripts we have were written down 100's of years after the last apostle died. There are over 8,000 of these old manuscripts with no two alike. The king james translators used none of these anyway. Instead they edited previous translations to create a version their king and parliament would approve. So.... 21st century christians believe the "word of god" is a book edited in the 17th century from the 16th century translations of 8,000 contradictory copies of 4th century scrolls that claim to be copies of lost letters written in the 1st century.
So we don't even know if the jesus character existed, much less what he may or may not have said.
Seriously?! Claiming that jesus said certain phrases is utter mind numbing nonsense, and yet you seem to base your belief on this! Your belief has more holes in it than swiss cheese! It would be laughable if it wasn't so tragic.
I've read viewpoints that differ from yours. Ones that come from a source that most likely have a better education than you. (feel free to post your credentials to prove my belief about you and your education on the matter wrong)
Instead of responding so irrationally, perhaps you should follow the advice and the truth revealed in the text.
Wisdom
IFeel free to post those differing viewpoints so that we can compare. You have no idea whether your source is better educated than the person you are replying to. Feel to post your credentials so we can evaluate your claims.
How can you be sure that the text contains truth when you consider the history of its compilation and subsequent editing, and when we know that the foundational events are totally incorrect?
You could ask the other poster the same question.
We? Do you and Dyslexic doG share the same exact views and belief systems? Hu?
I love how I write completely twisted and wrong comments...and all my fellow atheists ignore my comments but get all upset and offended when somebody simply believes in God.
Man, we are sh.theads.
I love the red herrings you throw into the narrative.