home
RSS
December 3rd, 2013
02:11 PM ET

Pope: I was once a bar bouncer

By Daniel Burke, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

(CNN)– If St. Peter ever needs help at the Pearly Gates, his successor Pope Francis may be the perfect man for the job.

The popular pontiff was once a bouncer at a nightclub in his native Argentina, Francis told Catholics at a church outside Rome earlier this week.

He has also swept floors and run tests in a chemical laboratory, the Pope said, in revelations sure to boost his image as a "pope of the people." And, as leader of the Jesuit community in Argentina, he woke at 5:30 a.m. to do the priests' laundry, according to author Christopher Lowney.

READ MORE: When Pope Francis was put on laundry duty

Francis didn't offer details about his career as a bouncer, according to L'Osservatore Romano, the Vatican newspaper, or what connection his velvet-rope experience might have to his current job as Vicar of Christ and head of the Roman Catholic Church.

Instead, the Pope told the church group, "his work later in life, teaching literature and psychology, taught him how to get people back into the church," reports Catholic News Service.

Getting people into church seems to be Pope Francis' primary mission these days, as made clear by his most recent official statement, a 50,000-word pep talk to the world's 1.2 billion Catholics.

READ MORE: Pope Francis: No more business as usual

In "Evangelii Gaudium" (The Joy of the Gospel), officially known as an "apostolic exhortation," Francis calls for church reforms, urges Catholics to be more bold and joyful, and castigates elements of modern capitalism.

"I prefer a Church which is bruised, hurting and dirty because it has been out on the streets," the Pope said, "rather than a Church which is unhealthy from being confined and from clinging to its own security."

Did Francis leave a few barflies bruised and hurting during his bouncing days? No word on that from the Vatican yet.

- CNN Religion Editor

Filed under: Catholic Church • Leaders • Pope Francis

soundoff (1,229 Responses)
  1. Jesus' Beloved

    OTOH
    Jesus' Beloved, "Salvation is a gift. You did nothing to earn therefore you can do nothing to lose it."
    What?
    1. "...did nothing to earn" – except give up logic, reason, history and reality.
    2. "...can do nothing to lose it" – except not believe it (that's the deal breaker, according to your book).

    When someone presents you a gift – did you give up all "logic, reason, history, and reality" to receive it or did you just take it and say Thank You.

    If someone gives you a gift and you don't believe they gave it to you and it was a gift, how did you lose it. You didn't take it.
    How can you lose what you don't have.

    December 4, 2013 at 11:58 am |
    • OTOH

      JB,

      This "gift" comes with conditions and with strings attached - and you know it.

      December 4, 2013 at 12:02 pm |
    • It's a Tie!

      Both "Jesus' Beloved" and "How can one be a Christian" have tied early today for the Fundy Award for Inquiry and Verification. How does their methodology work? Like this:

      [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YIj4rLYo0c&w=640&h=360]

      December 4, 2013 at 12:07 pm |
  2. How can one be Christian?

    Everyone needs salvation because we have all sinned.

    Romans 3:10-12, and 23
    As the Scriptures say, “No one is righteous—not even one. No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God. All have turned away; all have become useless. No one does good, not a single one.” ... For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard.

    December 4, 2013 at 11:54 am |
    • How can one be Christian?

      The price (or consequence) of sin is death.

      Romans 6:23
      For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

      December 4, 2013 at 11:55 am |
    • How can one be Christian?

      Jesus Christ died for our sins. He paid the price for our death.

      Romans 5:8
      But God showed his great love for us by sending Christ to die for us while we were still sinners.

      December 4, 2013 at 11:56 am |
    • Gary

      So your "perfect" god made us with flaws. Sounds like a jerk. No thanks. Stuff your fairy tales already.

      December 4, 2013 at 11:56 am |
    • How can one be Christian?

      We receive salvation and eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ.

      Romans 10:9-10, and 13
      If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved ... For “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

      December 4, 2013 at 11:56 am |
    • speak for yourself

      " we have all sinned. "

      Nope.

      December 4, 2013 at 11:56 am |
    • Apple Bush

      We know you can copy and paste, but do you personally have anything to offer?

      December 4, 2013 at 11:57 am |
      • Gil

        The answer is obviously no.

        December 4, 2013 at 12:10 pm |
    • How can one be Christian?

      Salvation through Jesus Christ brings us into a relationship of peace with God.

      Romans 5:1
      Therefore, since we have been made right in God’s sight by faith, we have peace with God because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us.

      December 4, 2013 at 11:57 am |
    • How can one be Christian?

      Romans 8:1
      So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus.

      December 4, 2013 at 11:57 am |
    • How can one be Christian?

      Salvation through Jesus Christ brings us into a relationship of peace with God.

      Romans 5:1
      Therefore, since we have been made right in God’s sight by faith, we have peace with God because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us.

      Romans 8:1
      So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus.

      Romans 8:38-39
      And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

      December 4, 2013 at 11:58 am |
      • Charm Quark

        Bible quotes, how cute. Why don't you and JW hook up and go on a door knocking spree? You can get some fresh air and maybe a black eye.

        December 4, 2013 at 12:07 pm |
    • Rainer Braendlein

      When the Gospel is such a simple mathematical formula, why God gave as the whole New Testament? Don't you simplify too much my friend?

      December 4, 2013 at 12:02 pm |
  3. joncraft84

    Reblogged this on Handicap.

    December 4, 2013 at 11:50 am |
  4. Apple Bush

    The Pope drops a hand grenade into a sea of Catholics and then watches their dead bodies float to the surface. A sturdy net gathers in today’s catch and dinner is assured. Once we have the wine (both a red and a white) we can eat. A good chef can cook on a hot plate.

    December 4, 2013 at 11:46 am |
  5. Apple Bush

    Welcome to the disturbing memories of one pope, he of the triple chin and the great gatherer of people in the light of the spirit. He who dreams of fire and damnation yet smiles a happy smile and embraces the physically deformed with his own special brand of charisma and caring.

    Touch his robes and cry into them, soiling them with the true nature of your heart and begging for forgiveness from he who cannot be flawed. Do this with all of your being and say unto yourself save me Lord. Help me Franny.

    Do not however touch the tip of the tip top of his pointy tip top hat or ask to bum a cigarette from the Pope. Even a bar bouncer frowns on such behavior and the confessional can be used for many things. I keep my rabbit in lovely and sturdy phone booth. To learn more about rabbits, please visit: http://www.wikipoops.com

    December 4, 2013 at 11:36 am |
    • Charm Quark

      Hey AB
      It is important to pass on to the kids that bunny poop looks like chocolate coated raisons, smell before placing in mouth.

      December 4, 2013 at 11:55 am |
      • Apple Bush

        Bunny poop is unpleasant to step on as well.

        December 4, 2013 at 11:58 am |
  6. Apple Bush

    This pope loves the spot light man.

    December 4, 2013 at 11:18 am |
  7. danny

    Then there are the Christian followers of Santa Muerte – still trying to fulfill its expectations with a human sacrifice here and there. Baskin Robbins must be licking their lips with envy thinking of all the flavors they would have to come up with if they became a Christian ice cream company!

    December 4, 2013 at 11:09 am |
  8. Robert Brown

    Some atheists say that they were Christians, but have lost their faith. They call themselves former Christians. Some are even former pastors. No offense to you personally and there is no way I can know another person’s heart, but if I understand what the bible teaches, I don’t believe there is any such thing as a “former Christian.” The bible says you can believe and lose faith, but if you have been saved by the grace of God, it is irrevocable. There is a difference between believing in God, or having religion and being saved, or born again, spiritually. The good news is that you can be saved, you can be born again.

    This of course is just my opinion, but those that claim to be former Christians are either lost, or saved and out of the will of God. If you are lost you were never saved, you may have been associated with religion, but you were not born again. If you are saved and out of the will of God, you are like the prodigal son, you are spiritually in the far country, far away from the love and will of your loving heavenly father. Either way the father is anxiously waiting for you to come home.

    Another thing that comes to my mind when anyone tells me that they use to believe is the parable of the sower. Have you ever considered what Jesus had to say on the subject of losing faith? This is one of the few parables where we get an explanation of the meaning.
    From the 8th chapter of Doctor Luke; “11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.”
    Verse 11 is very important; the sower is sowing the word of God. The word is not only the written word (the bible), or the preached word (which is the gospel message given by the holy spirit through a pastor) but most importantly, the word of God is Jesus.
    “12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.”
    The word goes out but a person never gets it, the devil keeps them from even considering it. They flatly reject it.
    “13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.”
    They hear, receive, and even believe, but they fall away. They lose their faith. They have no root, their faith is weak. Temptation here could be most anything apart from God. There are 3 enemies to the believer, the devil, the flesh, and the world. Temptation can come from any of those sources. If a person’s faith isn’t strong, they could be thinking with their human natural mind (flesh), apart from the holy spirit of God. God promises to teach us through his holy spirit. If someone yields to the flesh and reasons without the help of God’s Holy Spirit, they come to incorrect conclusions on spiritual matters. If they resist the flesh and yield to the spirit, God helps them understand spiritual things.
    “14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.”
    These hear, but it doesn’t say they receive or believe. They hear it, but they are more concerned with, overcome by, or consumed with, the things of the flesh and the world. Regardless of why, I honestly believe that God will forgive you and take you back, or save you and make you a child of God, whatever the case may be.

    December 4, 2013 at 11:08 am |
    • Don

      When somebody claims to be an 'ex' or former Christian, it simply means that they are fighting Christianity, deep down they yearn to be a Christian but their flesh is rebelling. They find some solace and comfort when they introduce themselves to you as "I am a former Christian" or "Ex-Christian".

      December 4, 2013 at 11:14 am |
      • K-switch

        Nice to know your are telepath.

        December 4, 2013 at 11:17 am |
      • Doc Vestibule

        Thanks Kierkegaard.

        December 4, 2013 at 11:18 am |
      • OTOH

        Don,

        So what about former Muslims, or former JWs, or former Mormons? (yeah, I know the last 2 consider themselves Christian) Are they really deep down trying to reconnect with their beliefs and their "God"?

        December 4, 2013 at 11:27 am |
      • tallulah13

        Or, more likely, people who don't believe in god just don't believe in god. But spin away, Don. I'm sure that making up stories about people you don't now - you know, lying about them - makes you feel important. Why should you care about what your god says about "bearing false witness".?

        December 4, 2013 at 11:29 am |
    • Cal

      How about you just stick to "there is no way I can know another person’s heart" and quit speculating.

      December 4, 2013 at 11:15 am |
    • I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that

      OK, you can have that as long as we can have 'there is no such thing as a former atheist'. I find it hard to believe that anybody who rejected the notion of deities could suddenly believe in all sorts of ridiculous hokum.

      December 4, 2013 at 11:16 am |
      • Live4Him

        I'm a former atheist. I'd rejected God completely, but accepted Jesus as a good man and a good teacher, but just a man. However, I no longer hold that view.

        December 4, 2013 at 11:25 am |
    • Don

      Oh, btw, you are right theologically when you say- 'I don’t believe there is any such thing as a “former Christian.” '

      December 4, 2013 at 11:17 am |
    • Live4Him

      @Robert Brown : if I understand what the bible teaches, I don’t believe there is any such thing as a “former Christian.”

      How do you reconcile this position with the following passages?

      Matthew 10:22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
      Matthew 24:13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
      Mark 13:13 Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

      December 4, 2013 at 11:21 am |
      • Jesus' Beloved

        You're right. There's no such thing as a former Christian.
        Salvation is a gift. You did nothing to earn therefore you can do nothing to lose it.

        December 4, 2013 at 11:29 am |
        • Don

          That's right, I don't believe you can go from being 'saved' to 'unsaved'. Most likely one was never 'saved' to begin with.
          Also, a person is NOT a Christian because they are born in a Christian family.

          December 4, 2013 at 11:33 am |
        • Madtown

          You did nothing to earn therefore you can do nothing to lose it
          ---–
          Excellent news. This means there's no need for religion.

          December 4, 2013 at 11:33 am |
        • Jesus' Beloved

          Madtown:
          There was never a need for religion in order to be saved.
          Salvation is for EVERYONE. The Whole World.
          Jesus died for the ENTIRE WORLD. and if it was you alone that needed salvation He would have died just for you. You're that important to Him.

          December 4, 2013 at 11:39 am |
        • OTOH

          Jesus' Beloved,
          "Salvation is a gift. You did nothing to earn therefore you can do nothing to lose it."

          What?

          1. "...did nothing to earn" - except give up logic, reason, history and reality.
          2. "...can do nothing to lose it" - except not believe it (that's the deal breaker, according to your book).

          December 4, 2013 at 11:42 am |
        • Madtown

          Jesus died for the ENTIRE WORLD
          ---–
          Even better news, as even today there are so many HUMAN BEINGS who don't have a clue who Jesus is. Why? God appears to want it that way.

          December 4, 2013 at 11:44 am |
        • Live4Him

          @Jesus' Beloved : You're right. There's no such thing as a former Christian. Salvation is a gift.

          I think we're in agreement. However, my position is that one can be a former Christian (i.e. follow the teachings of Christ) but not be one of the elect. Only the elect are saved and they are saved because they remained faithful to the end. Nothing we can do can earn salvation, it is a free gift from Christ because of his grace. Those who don't remain faithful until the end reject that gift.

          December 4, 2013 at 11:45 am |
        • OTOH

          L4,

          "free gift" is a redundancy. Plus, that "gift" is not free, even if you do like the double emphasis.

          December 4, 2013 at 11:49 am |
        • Madtown

          Only the elect are saved
          --–
          Out of curiosity, how tall are you when you place yourself upon this pedestal?

          December 4, 2013 at 12:05 pm |
      • Jesus' Beloved

        I am by NO means saying it's okay to sin. It is NOT okay to sin.
        What sin does is it gives satan an in-road into your life by opening the door to the soul, mind and emotions, as well as give him the opportunity to destroy your physical body.
        It's stupid to open oneself up to the devil.

        December 4, 2013 at 11:35 am |
      • danny

        "How do you reconcile . . . "

        Hmm – I wonder how much popcorn I should buy at the store today...

        December 4, 2013 at 11:36 am |
        • danny

          If things are going to be "reconciled" today, I might need to buy the store out. I'm not even sure if that's enough. I could pretend like I'm buying straw for Solomon's stables. But exactly how many stables were there? The Bible is at odds with itself about this.

          December 4, 2013 at 11:55 am |
      • Robert Brown

        Live4Him,

        Ephesians 1:13-14
        13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

        14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

        1 Peter 1:5
        5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

        John 10:28-29
        28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

        29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

        December 4, 2013 at 12:58 pm |
    • Rainer Braendlein

      We have to keep the faith in order to come through at Judgement Day.

      The secular world treats us with hostility despite our kindness (that's outrageous), and there is great danger that we beat back. But beating back would mean to become secular again – we had lost the faith in Jesus who is love in Himself.

      Therefore Jesus gave the instructions of the Sermon on the Mount. If we follow these instruction we keep the faith, and will come through at Judgement Day. The power to be obedient we receive from Jesus – being obedient has nothing to do with worksrighteousness – it is all about keeping the faith, or remaining in Jesus.

      December 4, 2013 at 11:23 am |
      • Rainer Braendlein

        When the world notices that we are not going to beat back, she will try to seduce us through applause – that we may fast, pray, donate for the sake of here applause. Yet, when we seek the secular world's applause (like the pope) we will never get God's applause because the secular world has become our idol (see Sermon on the Mount).

        A true Christian should pray, donate or fast only for the sake of the current need – no more, no less.

        December 4, 2013 at 11:32 am |
        • Jill

          Rainer Braendlein, gargle with tomato paste. Don't obfuscate the primary prenuptials with rasberries. Often, the pertinent cat presents fabled necessities in the parking chamfer. Realize your net precedent. Triangulate! Save the best for the alligators. Ever the bastille notches the orchestra but Wendy is not green and horses will capitulate. Filter out the log from the turnstile and cry prevalently.

          So there brown stare. Feed your inner walnut and resolve. Subject your lemon to the ingenious door in the presence of snow and animals. Aisle 7 is for the monetary cheese whiz. Faced with the kitchen, you may wish to prolong the sailboat in the cliff. Otherwise, rabbits may descend on your left nostril. Think about how you can stripe the sea.

          Regale the storm to those who (6) would thump the parrot with the armband. Corner the market on vestiges of the apparent closure but seek not the evidential circumstance. Therein you can find indignant mountains of pigs and apples. Descend eloquently as you debate the ceiling of your warning fulcrum. Vacate the corncob profusely and and don’t dote on the pancreas.

          Next up, control your wood. Have at the cat with your watch on the fore. Aft! Smarties (12)! Rome wasn’t kevetched in an autumn nightie. (42) See yourself for the turntable on the escalator. Really peruse the garage spider definitely again again with brown. Now we have an apparent congestion, so be it here. Just a moment is not a pod of beef for the ink well nor can it be (4) said that Karen was there in the millpond.

          Garbage out just like the candle in the kitty so. Go, go, go until the vacuum meets the upward vacation. Sell the yellow. Then trim the bus before the ten cheese please Louise. Segregate from the koan and stew the ship vigorously.

          And remember, never pass up an opportunity to watch an elephant paint Mozart.

          December 4, 2013 at 11:51 am |
        • Rainer Braendlein

          OMJ!

          December 4, 2013 at 11:52 am |
    • danny

      RB: "Another thing that comes to my mind when anyone tells me that they use to believe is the parable of the sower. Have you ever considered what Jesus had to say on the subject of losing faith? "

      No, I don't even try to consider it. You know why? Hint: it's the same reason I don't ask an officer of the law if a law is just. Regardless of their answer, I'm not likely to gain anything from them, since it's not their job to investigate and question the law. I might get some interesting insight with such a question just because I'm actually talking to another human being and not to something in my imagination. Now you might have trouble understanding my hint. To keep you from diving off a cliff, know that in my hint, the officer of the law does not represent Jesus. The officer of the law represents all the people who allegedly wrote the words of Jesus.

      December 4, 2013 at 11:25 am |
    • Bob

      Robert Brown, given that your book of nasty AKA the bible contains such nasty instructions as these from your vicious, hateful sky fairy, it's no surprise that brave, reasonable folks exit your crazy religion:

      Numbers 31:17-18
      17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
      18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

      Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”

      Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

      Leviticus 25
      44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
      45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
      46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

      Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.

      Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.

      And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.

      So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.

      Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
      Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
      http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

      December 4, 2013 at 11:45 am |
    • Jesus' Beloved

      Thanks for sharing this spiritual truth.

      The smallest thing I would add in the parable of the sower is that the first group when they hear the Word, IMMEDIATELY, the devil steals it from them. Isn't that something.

      I loved how Andrew spoke of the 4th ground (heart of a man). That ground had less of everything. Less rocks, less thorns, less cares, less strife, less worries, etc. so the seed was able to germinate, put down deep roots (by studying, meditating on the Word).

      Thanks again for sharing. Everything comes from a seed. Even thoughts. Truly we reap what we sow.
      God Bless.

      December 4, 2013 at 11:49 am |
      • Gary

        fairy tales.

        December 4, 2013 at 11:57 am |
      • Robert Brown

        Jesus' Beloved,
        Amen, the seed is the same in every case, it is the ground that is different. The ground is the heart. The seed has to fall on good ground. The good ground in the parable of the sower is the broken heart and the contrite spirit. It is the word which can prepare the ground as the holy spirit begins to convict a person of their sins, the ground is tilled and ready to accept the seed.

        December 4, 2013 at 1:05 pm |
        • OTOH

          Robert Brown,

          Apparently (from your stories) this omniscient, omnipotent, all-loving 'sower' purposefully hardens the ground (hearts) of some and sends them 'strong delusions'... knows before 'he' even creates them what their fates will be - and creates them anyway!

          December 4, 2013 at 1:12 pm |
        • Robert Brown

          Yes, those who reject him are in big trouble.

          Isaiah 66:4
          I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

          December 4, 2013 at 1:21 pm |
        • OTOH

          Robert Brown,

          And you love and worship that fantasy monster?! Brrrrr!

          December 4, 2013 at 1:24 pm |
    • igaftr

      Robert
      You clearly do not understand atheists. When they wake up and reject whichever religion they are being indoctrinated into, they reject it in its entirety. It doesn't matter if you think people that were christians and now are not still are.
      For example. I was baptised presbyterian. I was an infant and knew nothing of god. By the time I was six, logic took over, and I questioned everything, and christianity makes no logical sense, so I rejected it. Prior to that I did not understand...then I became old enough to realize it wasn't me not understanding, it was what I was being taught that made no sense.
      You might claim I am still a christian...false.
      Just like catholics who have their communion...those children are not old enough to understand, so they aren't really christians. Just because someone sprinkled "magic" water on me does not make me christian, so one moment I was christian, but when I was cognisant of it, i reject it.

      I am quite insulted when people call me a christian...my morals do not allow me to allow another to stand in my place if I have any punishment coming...it seems to me that is something that would require punishment.

      Wouldn't it be funny if that whole accept jesus thing is a test to see who is immoral enough to allow jesus to take their punishment, and you will be rejected by god for that immorality, thereby making anyone who does not call themselves christians the ones who go to heaven?

      December 4, 2013 at 12:09 pm |
      • Robert Brown

        You are correct that infant baptism doesn’t make you a Christian. Neither does attending church make you a Christian. Each person must make a decision for Christ to become a Christian, you must be born again.

        On your last thought, you may not realize it, but salvation does not prevent you from being corrected or punished for your sins. Christians pay dearly for every willful sin they commit after they are saved. The difference is the punishment isn’t eternal. Christians are corrected and punished in this life for willful disobedience. The prodigal son was down in the pig pen feeding the swine and starving when he came to his senses.

        December 4, 2013 at 1:15 pm |
        • igaftr

          Robert
          The whole idea that god made everyone, and also made hell, and is going to punish everyone there ( even though he doesn't want to) who doesn't fit into the role the bible claims people are supposed to follow, then sent himself down as his son and himself, to be "sacrificed" (even though he lost nothing) in an effort to "save" everyone from the threat He himself created....seems like an awful amount of work to no end...why not just create everone in heaven in the first place......Why is it you can't see how backwards that whole way of thinking is?

          Men made up the whole thing...when you realize that is when it all makes sense, and you realize there is nothing to be saved from, since the one who made up the threat like a schoolyard bully, was himself made up by men.

          whether ot not there is a god aside, it is certainly not the ridiculously illogical creature the christians believe it to be.
          Furthermore, when you realize what was going on at the time in the region, it makes far more sense to believe (and with far more evidence) that Jesus and Satan are metaphoric characters, not external to any individual, but representing the internal struggle, and the whole "saving " thing is just the carrot. Made up. Then the whole bit Jesus teaches is just the wisdom men had up to that point....much of it straight from the Buddha (yet no credit given).

          To think that any of it represents reality is absurd....far more sense when you consider it from a human standpoint....men made it all up...and even if there is a god...it certainly is not what is in the bible, since the god of the bible is an impossibility.

          December 4, 2013 at 1:59 pm |
        • Robert Brown

          Igaftr,

          God chose to create beings who are capable of loving him, or not. Why can’t you see how simple that is? I’m glad you are at least open to the idea of God.

          We have become so intelligent, refined, civilized, and so far above the barbarism of bygone days. I’m being sarcastic by the way. Seriously, humans have advanced tremendously in many ways over the years, and yet our nature has not. When you get right down to it, we are capable of behaving in the exact same ways as humans behaved since history has been recorded. Watch the news sometime.
          I believe there is a God who is alive and very real. He is patient, merciful, and just. I also believe it is the same God recorded in the bible. I have reasons for my belief. If you think you are too smart to fall for God, you are far from him and yet he can be very near.
          Isaiah 57:15
          For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
          Psalm 34:18
          The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

          The bible opens another interesting subject. Perhaps we can discuss it sometime.

          December 4, 2013 at 4:15 pm |
  9. JW

    Have you ever asked:

    Why do we suffer? What's the purpose of life? What can we expect for the future?

    The bible answers, these and many other questions.

    Many people call the bible a book of myths, out dated or hard to understand.,. But those are only opinions. Why don't you try studying the bible,and make your own decision regarding the bible?

    Jehovah's witnesses will be more then happy to teach you the bible, for free, in a location and time of your convenience.All our educational work is all free, there is no charges, passing the plate or the debit machine.

    December 4, 2013 at 10:53 am |
    • igaftr

      This garbage again?
      The bible has answers....wrong answers are still answers.

      December 4, 2013 at 10:56 am |
    • Rainer Braendlein

      Not that as well!

      December 4, 2013 at 10:58 am |
    • Topher

      Lot of false religions and false teachings here this morning.

      December 4, 2013 at 11:00 am |
      • I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that

        Yeah, as opposed to all the true religions out there 😉

        December 4, 2013 at 11:02 am |
        • Topher

          True. Religions are false. They are merely man's attempts to get to God. The Bible clearly says we can't.

          December 4, 2013 at 11:05 am |
        • I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that

          As does common sense.

          December 4, 2013 at 11:08 am |
        • JW

          Topher- I respect your opinion. But The God of the bible want all of is to know him... He certainly wouldn't hide his identiity..

          December 4, 2013 at 11:11 am |
        • Madtown

          When you draw on the bible, you as.sociate yourself with a religion.

          December 4, 2013 at 11:12 am |
        • Topher

          JW ... not sure I understand what you're getting at. Of course He wants us all to know Him. But JW's teach a different Jesus from the Bible.

          December 4, 2013 at 11:14 am |
        • Madtown

          The God of the bible want all of is to know him
          ----
          Then why does he NOT create pathways for many of his human creations to learn of christianity and the bible?

          December 4, 2013 at 11:16 am |
        • Topher

          Madtown

          "When you draw on the bible, you as.sociate yourself with a religion."

          I understand why you think that way, but technically that's not true. Religion says you must do things in order to go to Heaven ... give money, say prayers, be a good person, help old ladies across the street, be Baptized, participate in sacraments, etc. The Bible teaches that NONE of that will help you. Christianity is set apart from religions. It is the ONLY one that teaches this.

          December 4, 2013 at 11:18 am |
        • JW

          Topher- the Jesus the JWs teach is the Jesus of the bible... Not the pagan trinitarian Jesus introduced in the church by Constantine!

          December 4, 2013 at 11:22 am |
        • Topher

          JW

          You, sir, are a heretic. Constantine introduced no such thing, and the OT clearly teaches the Trinity, as does Jesus Himself.

          December 4, 2013 at 11:24 am |
        • JW

          About having a religion, the bible teaches that God is a God of order. ( 1 Cor 14:33,40) if you look at the bible God always had an organization on earth, either the people of Israel, then in the 1st century the Christian cong... There are letter directed to the different congs... The bible stresses why is it important to belong to true religion. Heb 10:23-25 read.

          December 4, 2013 at 11:28 am |
        • Madtown

          Christianity is set apart from religions
          -----
          Hump day comedy. Christianity IS a religion.

          December 4, 2013 at 11:29 am |
        • JW

          Topher- read Acts 7:55. Then ask: how can Jesus be sitting at the right hand of God of Jesus is god?

          December 4, 2013 at 11:31 am |
        • Topher

          JW

          "Topher- read Acts 7:55. Then ask: how can Jesus be sitting at the right hand of God of Jesus is god?"

          Because Jesus is the second person of the Trinity.

          Please tell me what passages you use to demonstrate Jesus is merely an angel.

          December 4, 2013 at 11:35 am |
        • Topher

          Or specifically that He is Michael.

          December 4, 2013 at 11:36 am |
        • JW

          Topher- where in the bible says that Jesus is the 2nd part of a trinity? How can you explain according to acts that Jesus is separate from God, sitting at the right hand of god?

          December 4, 2013 at 11:38 am |
        • Topher

          JW

          I'd be happy to show you many verses that show the Trinity. But please answer my question first.

          December 4, 2013 at 11:40 am |
        • Billy

          Now you're suggesting that the Bible prophesized Korg's intentions?

          December 4, 2013 at 11:43 am |
        • JW

          Topher- about Michael..
          Have you ever wondered, why before Jesus got born, the angel at Matthew 1:23 says, that his parents would have to give him the name Immanuel, but after his parents put him the name Jesus?

          December 4, 2013 at 11:47 am |
        • Topher

          JW

          "Have you ever wondered, why before Jesus got born, the angel at Matthew 1:23 says, that his parents would have to give him the name Immanuel, but after his parents put him the name Jesus?"

          Not really. The angel says he will be CALLED Immanuel (which means God With Us), not NAMED Immanuel. And because He taught that He was/is God, He WAS called that. "I and the Father are One." John 10:30

          December 4, 2013 at 11:53 am |
        • Paddy

          Topher and JW,

          Sort of an interesting discussion, I guess, but it's rather like debating about whether Leprechauns' vests are brown or green, or if they have 3 buttons or 4 on them.

          December 4, 2013 at 11:53 am |
        • JW

          Topher- the vers in Acts I posted kills any verse your going to post... Because that was a vision of heaven, a Stephen saw that Jesus is a separate from God in heaven...
          Even in revelation the Lamb Jesus is always seen as separate from God... The Lamb is not god himself.

          Still eating for you to give a good explanation on Acts 7:55..

          December 4, 2013 at 11:56 am |
        • Topher

          I did address it. But you still haven't given me one verse to show Jesus was Michael. And that's because there aren't any. Now if you'll admit that, we can move on to another topic. Not only can I show you many verses showing the Trinity, but also that Jesus wasn't an angel.

          December 4, 2013 at 12:04 pm |
        • JW

          Topher- in the OT we see other examples of name changes, like it happened to Abraham and Sara, then with others... God would change the names, to other names that would give meaning to their role or purpose from that time on... The Name Michael on Jesus gives is an idea of what is Jesus doing in heaven...

          About John 10:30... Compare it with acts 7:55 and think what that means.. Also compare with , Joh 17:11“I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one.
          Joh 17:21so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me.

          Were Jesus desciples part of a trinity?

          December 4, 2013 at 12:09 pm |
        • Madtown

          the vers in Acts I posted kills any verse your going to post
          ----–
          LOL!! This is some good stuff, thanks guys. Will you both be around tomorrow, and the remainder of the week? You could do us all a service, and announce what time so we can be sure to check out your comedy routine. I bet you could even charge admission.

          December 4, 2013 at 12:10 pm |
        • Topher

          Just a few verses showing all three parts of the Trinity appearing at the same time.

          "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Matthew 3:16-17

          "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:" Matthew 28:19

          "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen." 2 Corinthians 13:14

          More Trinity ...

          "And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness:" Genesis 1:26 (emphasis mine)

          "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of US, ..." Genesis 3:22 (emphasis mine)

          I've got TONS more if you're interested.

          December 4, 2013 at 12:14 pm |
        • JW

          Topher- Archangel means, the chefe of all angels... No angel is above Jesus. So Jesus is that archangel.

          Read 1 Thess 4:16 and Jude 9

          December 4, 2013 at 12:20 pm |
        • JW

          Topher- before showing me more bible verse, please answer mines.
          Acts 7:55, you said because Jesus is the second part of trinity, then you haven't explained me, how is that if Jesus is seen separated from God?

          Still waiting a replay on John 17.. Regarding your verse on John 10:30?

          December 4, 2013 at 12:24 pm |
        • Topher

          JW

          Topher- in the OT we see other examples of name changes, like it happened to Abraham and Sara, then with others... God would change the names, ..."

          Sure. But God also told us He changed those names. You don't have Him saying anywhere He changed Jesus to Michael.

          "Were Jesus desciples part of a trinity?"

          Of course not.

          You also have a problem where the angels reject worship and say to only worship God. And yet we see Jesus accepting worship.

          December 4, 2013 at 12:26 pm |
        • HotAirAce

          JW and Topher are merely hacking over the rules of the world's oldest fantasy role playing game, with heavy emphasis on fantasy, just like a couple of Dungeons & Dragons geeks. The only difference is that D&D geeks occasionally engage in reality.

          December 4, 2013 at 12:29 pm |
        • Topher

          JW

          "Topher- before showing me more bible verse, please answer mines."

          We established many responses ago that I will be happy to as soon as you give me the verse that says Jesus is Michael. You haven't done that.

          "Acts 7:55, you said because Jesus is the second part of trinity, then you haven't explained me, how is that if Jesus is seen separated from God?"

          Do you not understand the Trinity? It's three persons, one God. All three are God, (as there's only one God) but The Son is not the Father and the Holy Spirit is not The Son.

          I'm running out to get lunch, but I'll be back in a few minutes. I don't want you to think I've run away.

          December 4, 2013 at 12:30 pm |
        • Topher

          I'm back. C'mon, dude. Your biggest piece of faith is that Jesus is Michael and you don't have a verse that back that up? So are you getting that from an extra-Biblical source?

          What do you reject historical Christianity? My faith comes from what Christ taught to the 12 and them to the early church. According to that, you're FAR outside of orthodoxy. Why is that? Why listen to modern teachings?

          December 4, 2013 at 1:04 pm |
        • JW

          Topher- On the other hand, Christ Jesus has been exalted by his Father to a position second only to God, so that “in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” (Php 2:9-11; compare Da 7:13, 14, 27.) Hebrews 1:6 also shows that even the angels render obeisance to the resurrected Jesus Christ. Many translations of this text here render pro·sky·ne′o as “worship,” while some render it by such expressions as “bow before” (AT; Yg) and ‘pay homage’ (NE). No matter what English term is used, the original Greek remains the same and the understanding of what it is that the angels render to Christ must accord with the rest of the Scriptures. Jesus himself emphatically stated to Satan that “it is Jehovah your God you must worship [form of pro·sky·ne′o], and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.” (Mt 4:8-10; Lu 4:7, 8) Similarly, the angel(s) told John to “worship God” (Re 19:10; 22:9), and this injunction came after Jesus’ resurrection and exaltation, showing that matters had not changed in this regard.

          December 4, 2013 at 1:40 pm |
        • JW

          Topher – Archangel. God’s Word refers to Michael “the archangel.” (Jude 9) This term means “chief angel.” Notice that Michael is called the archangel. This suggests that there is only one such angel. In fact, the term “archangel” occurs in the Bible only in the singular, never in the plural. Moreover, Jesus is linked with the office of archangel. Regarding the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 states: “The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice.” Thus the voice of Jesus is described as being that of an archangel. This scripture therefore suggests that Jesus himself is the archangel Michael.

          December 4, 2013 at 1:45 pm |
        • JW

          Topher- your telling me that you worship 3 gods?? Are you polytheist?

          Still waiting on a response for acts 7:55?

          December 4, 2013 at 1:51 pm |
        • Some Antics

          You say Archangel, I say AngieMerkel
          You say it's Michael, I say it's Mackerel
          Michael, Mackerel, Archangel, AngieMerkel, let's call the whole thing off...!

          p.s. jesus is not the archangel michael simply because there is no evidence for anything supernatural including angels or demons and this debate is like arguing over who would win in fight, a leprechaun or a hobbit...

          December 4, 2013 at 1:57 pm |
        • JW

          Topher- we out of Christian orthodoxy?? Your belief in your triune god, with my respect, compared with what the bible teaches proves that you believe in the same teachings Constantine introduced to the church.... That's not orthodoxy, that's paganism.

          December 4, 2013 at 2:38 pm |
      • Science Works

        Yeah Topher there is False teachings going on – no god(s) required !

        Just the biblical stand on procreation !

        ACLU Sues, Claiming Catholic Hospitals Put Women At Risk

        by Julie Rovner posted on December 03, 2013 01:51PM GMT

        http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/12/02/248243411/aclu-sues-u-s-bishops-says-catholic-hospital-rules-put-women-at-risk

        December 4, 2013 at 11:12 am |
    • truthprevails1

      JW: You might as well be Muslim...the christians on this board don't see your god as the same one they worship and I give them two thing's here: They don't go door to door preaching and they don't turn to their 'elders' b/c they're stumped for answers.

      December 4, 2013 at 11:14 am |
      • Doc Vestibule

        Except maybe Mormons....

        December 4, 2013 at 11:20 am |
      • JW

        That's because people have been mislead by their teachers... That have taught them teachings of men rather then was is in the bible.

        December 4, 2013 at 11:35 am |
        • Madtown

          taught them teachings of men rather then was is in the bible.
          ------
          Hilarious irony alert.

          December 4, 2013 at 11:39 am |
        • truthprevails1

          JW: There lies a huge issue. You all base your core belief off of the same bible but few of you agree on who is right. How are you do certain your path is right and not the path of a member of the RCC or a member of the Muslim faith? Where is the evidence (without using your holy books) that substantiates your claims?

          December 4, 2013 at 12:00 pm |
        • JW

          Truth- according to the bible we can deteime that.. Study the bible.

          December 4, 2013 at 12:26 pm |
        • Madtown

          Truth- according to the bible we can deteime that
          -----
          So, your human brothers who don't know what the bible is, and with no access to christianity, have no way of identifying "truth"? You're really arrogant.

          December 4, 2013 at 12:50 pm |
      • Knock Knock

        Home: Who's there?

        JWs: We'd like to talk to you about...

        Home: BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK! BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK BARK!

        December 4, 2013 at 11:42 am |
  10. Rainer Braendlein

    St. Paul emphasized the significance of pure faith, Jesus emphasized the instructions of the Sermon on the Mount, and demanded obedience.

    How to unite St. Paul and Jesus? Did they teach different doctrines?

    Impossible that Paul and Jesus teached differently, and there is a solution to "remove" the discrepancy between Jesus and Paul. St. Paul did not only emphasize faith but also sacramental baptism (read Romans 6). The s. baptism strengthens our faith in such a way that we become able to live according to the Sermon of the Mount (it is of course a life-long struggle against our bad old nature, but we are on the side of the winner man). The mystery is that we have died and resurrected together with Jesus through faith and sacramental baptism. If we take enough time every day (even on the cost of working time) to contemplate about these truths or promises of health (that we have died for the sin, and entered Christ), we will overcome, and become able to become loving people following Jesus' instructions of the Sermon on the Mount, even if we are treated with hostility by secular people or heretics (the great issue of the Christian is the hostility of the secular world, and the Sermon on the Mount gives instructions how to treat the "infidels").

    December 4, 2013 at 10:47 am |
    • Jill

      Rainer Braendlein, don't obfuscate the primary prenuptials with rasberries. Often, the pertinent cat presents fabled necessities in the parking chamfer. Realize your net precedent. Triangulate! Save the best for the alligators. Ever the bastille notches the orchestra but Wendy is not green and horses will capitulate. Filter out the log from the turnstile and cry prevalently.

      So there brown stare. Feed your inner walnut and resolve. Subject your lemon to the ingenious door in the presence of snow and animals. Aisle 7 is for the monetary cheese whiz. Faced with the kitchen, you may wish to prolong the sailboat in the cliff. Otherwise, rabbits may descend on your left nostril. Think about how you can stripe the sea.

      Regale the storm to those who (6) would thump the parrot with the armband. Corner the market on vestiges of the apparent closure but seek not the evidential circumstance. Therein you can find indignant mountains of pigs and apples. Descend eloquently as you debate the ceiling of your warning fulcrum. Vacate the corncob profusely and and don’t dote on the pancreas.

      Next up, control your wood. Have at the cat with your watch on the fore. Aft! Smarties (12)! Rome wasn’t kevetched in an autumn nightie. (42) See yourself for the turntable on the escalator. Really peruse the garage spider definitely again again with brown. Now we have an apparent congestion, so be it here. Just a moment is not a pod of beef for the ink well nor can it be (4) said that Karen was there in the millpond.

      Garbage out just like the candle in the kitty so. Go, go, go until the vacuum meets the upward vacation. Sell the yellow. Then trim the bus before the ten cheese please Louise. Segregate from the koan and stew the ship vigorously.

      And remember, never pass up an opportunity to watch an elephant paint Mozart.

      December 4, 2013 at 11:49 am |
      • Rainer Braendlein

        OMG!

        December 4, 2013 at 11:52 am |
        • Jill

          Rainer Braendlein, broken sausages. Don't obfuscate the primary prenuptials with rasberries. Often, the pertinent cat presents fabled necessities in the parking chamfer. Realize your net precedent. Triangulate! Save the best for the alligators. Ever the bastille notches the orchestra but Wendy is not green and horses will capitulate. Filter out the log from the turnstile and cry prevalently.

          So there brown stare. Feed your inner walnut and resolve. Subject your lemon to the ingenious door in the presence of snow and animals. Aisle 7 is for the monetary cheese whiz. Faced with the kitchen, you may wish to prolong the sailboat in the cliff. Otherwise, rabbits may descend on your left nostril. Think about how you can stripe the sea.

          Regale the storm to those who (6) would thump the parrot with the armband. Corner the market on vestiges of the apparent closure but seek not the evidential circumstance. Therein you can find indignant mountains of pigs and apples. Descend eloquently as you debate the ceiling of your warning fulcrum. Vacate the corncob profusely and and don’t dote on the pancreas.

          Next up, control your wood. Have at the cat with your watch on the fore. Aft! Smarties (12)! Rome wasn’t kevetched in an autumn nightie. (42) See yourself for the turntable on the escalator. Really peruse the garage spider definitely again again with brown. Now we have an apparent congestion, so be it here. Just a moment is not a pod of beef for the ink well nor can it be (4) said that Karen was there in the millpond.

          Garbage out just like the candle in the kitty so. Go, go, go until the vacuum meets the upward vacation. Sell the yellow. Then trim the bus before the ten cheese please Louise. Segregate from the koan and stew the ship vigorously.

          And remember, never pass up an opportunity to watch an elephant paint Mozart.

          December 4, 2013 at 11:53 am |
        • Rainer Braendlein

          Scriptorum gaudium!

          December 4, 2013 at 11:54 am |
  11. Rainer Braendlein

    Mr. Obama is a friend of mine.

    "Did Francis leave a few barflies bruised and hurting during his bouncing days? No word on that from the Vatican yet."

    Unquote.

    That would not even matter, if the pope had really become a Christian. Simply remember St. Paul who was a Jewish "Taliban" before he became a Christian. When St. Paul still was a Jewish Taliban he gave his approval when St. Stephen was stoned to death. Furthermore brother Paul persecuted the Christian Church of Jerusalem and consigned many saints to prison, or even death penalty. During that time St. Paul was called Saul. However, even such a wrongdoer like Saul was forgiven. Saul became St.Paul. The resurrected Christ himself had encountered him, and had led him to Himself saying: "Saul, Saul why do you persecute me?"

    Awkwardly expressed it plays no role which sins or crimes somebody has comitted before conversion. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ is enough to forgive the worst sins and crimes, if somebody repents, believes, and gets sacramentally baptized.

    This pope is likeable but he holds an office which is bad in itself, and if the pope would take serious the Christian faith, he would immediately abandon his papal office. The papal office was never insti-tuted by Christ. The papal office is antipodal to Christ's office has invisible head of the Church. A human being is never able to lead Christ's or God's divine body, the Church; that can do only God or Christ himself. A divine body needs a divine head. A human being is not able to lead a divine body. Therefore, lacking Christ's leadership, the RCC has become a pi-sspot of heresies. The popes were overchallenged to decide highly complicated matters of the doctrine which former times were decided by council led by the Spirit of Christ, having no visible head, being free, and not predetermined.

    Another subject:
    .
    I guess behind the bouncer-pope story is the following theological issue:

    Long time there was no such a thing like conversion, neither in the Catholic Church nor in the Protestant Churches though conversion is a term of the New Testament, the consti-tution of the Early Church. Long time somebody got suspi-cious, if he was mentioning the term conversion. It was proscribed.

    In the Western World long time somebody was a Christian (in the sight of the society) simply when he was baptized, or had received infant baptism. It played nearly no role if he or she really followed Christ. Nobody was asking for conversion, that was no issue. Being baptized meant to be a Christian. Seemingly that pope is influenced by Catholic evangelicals which emphasize conversion, and want to establish a culture of conversion.

    Now, what is the opinion of the New Testament, the consti-tution of the Early Church.

    Infant baptism is a ecclesiastical habit of old. Yet, former times the parents of an infant to be baptized were true and pious believers. Never the Church had baptized infants of outrageous sinners or pagans like the churches do it today. That is the core of the problem. In a pious family God works miracles, and there even an infant can believe which is not possible in the secular world. An infant of secular parents should not be baptized. And when the churches started to fail to ask if the parents of an infant are really following Jesus, it began that many nominal Christians were bred. However, the infant baptism was even valid, only that the infants lacked the faith, and grew nominal Chrstians, lacking any education by pious parents, priests, relatives, etc. That the reason why we have so many secularized "Christians" in Europe.

    At least in Europe many people have been baptized as an infant. When they want to start to live as serious Christians, they should not be rebaptized but refer to their infant baptism. This is a kind of conversion but quite different from the evangelical conversion. Of course, somebody who has never been baptized can simply start to believe, and then getting baptized.

    There is no need that somebody becomes an outragesous sinner, like the pope as bouncer, before he or she can convert. Every ordinary Babbitt can convert – our life in the flesh or natural life before conversion plays no role. Christ admits everybody who repents, and believes, and gets sacramentally baptized.

    St, Paul emphasized the significance of pure faith, Jesus emphasized the instructions of the Sermon on the Mount.

    How to unite St. Paul and Jesus? Did they teach different doctrines?

    Impossibel that Paul and Jesus teached differently, and there is a solution to "remove" the discrepancy between Jesus and Paul. St, Paul did not only emphasize faith but also sacramental baptism (read Romans 6). The s. baptism strengthens our faith in such a way that we become able to life according to the Sermon of the Mount (it is of course a life-long struggle against our bad old nature, but we are on the winner side). The mystery is that we have died and resurrected together with Jesus through faith and sacramental baptism. If we take enough time every time to contemplate about these truths or promises of health, we will overcome, and become able to become loving people following Jesus instructions of the Sermon on the Mount, even if we are treated with hostility by secular people or heretics.

    December 4, 2013 at 10:29 am |
    • Rainer Braendlein

      agreed. so, there is no reason the universe exists or at least no cause. it has always been here. not a big deal unless u have an inquiring mind.

      December 4, 2013 at 10:35 am |
    • Reality # 2

      And Luther's views continue unabated by RB.

      Now for some reality:

      The Apostles' Creed 2013: (updated by yours truly and based on the studies of historians and theologians of the past 200 years)

      Should I believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
      and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
      human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven??

      I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
      preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
      named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
      girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)

      Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
      the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,

      He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
      a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of
      Jerusalem.

      Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by
      many semi-fiction writers. A descent into Hell, a bodily resurrection
      and ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
      Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
      grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
      and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
      called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.

      Amen
      (references used are available upon request)

      December 4, 2013 at 10:52 am |
      • Rainer Braendlein

        You always croak the same. Please give us a break.

        December 4, 2013 at 10:55 am |
        • HotAirAce

          This from someone who hasn't changed his scam, errrr, message in years. Pot & Kettle! Hypocrite!!

          December 4, 2013 at 12:00 pm |
        • Reality # 2

          The Hammer of Truth will continue. And creeds are made to be repeated for that purpose.

          More Hammering:

          1. origin: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482

          “New Torah For Modern Minds

          Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.

          Such startling propositions – the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years – have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity – until now.

          The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called "Etz Hayim" ("Tree of Life" in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine docu-ment. “
          prob•a•bly
          Adverb: Almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell.

          2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations (or “mythicizing” from P, M, M, L and J) and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a ma-mzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). An-alyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Ludemann, Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, ) via the NT and related doc-uments have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

          The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hitt-ites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.

          earlychristianwritings.com/

          For added "pizzazz", Catholic theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

          Current RCC problems:

          Pedophiliac priests, an all-male, mostly white hierarchy, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

          2 b., Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley, Roger Williams, the Great “Babs” et al, founders of Christian-based religions or combination religions also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immacu-late co-nceptions).

          Current problems:
          Adulterous preachers, pedophiliac clerics, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology,

          December 4, 2013 at 5:15 pm |
    • Jill

      Rainer Braendlein, gargle with tomato sauce. Don't obfuscate the primary prenuptials with rasberries. Often, the pertinent cat presents fabled necessities in the parking chamfer. Realize your net precedent. Triangulate! Save the best for the alligators. Ever the bastille notches the orchestra but Wendy is not green and horses will capitulate. Filter out the log from the turnstile and cry prevalently.

      So there brown stare. Feed your inner walnut and resolve. Subject your lemon to the ingenious door in the presence of snow and animals. Aisle 7 is for the monetary cheese whiz. Faced with the kitchen, you may wish to prolong the sailboat in the cliff. Otherwise, rabbits may descend on your left nostril. Think about how you can stripe the sea.

      Regale the storm to those who (6) would thump the parrot with the armband. Corner the market on vestiges of the apparent closure but seek not the evidential circumstance. Therein you can find indignant mountains of pigs and apples. Descend eloquently as you debate the ceiling of your warning fulcrum. Vacate the corncob profusely and and don’t dote on the pancreas.

      Next up, control your wood. Have at the cat with your watch on the fore. Aft! Smarties (12)! Rome wasn’t kevetched in an autumn nightie. (42) See yourself for the turntable on the escalator. Really peruse the garage spider definitely again again with brown. Now we have an apparent congestion, so be it here. Just a moment is not a pod of beef for the ink well nor can it be (4) said that Karen was there in the millpond.

      Garbage out just like the candle in the kitty so. Go, go, go until the vacuum meets the upward vacation. Sell the yellow. Then trim the bus before the ten cheese please Louise. Segregate from the koan and stew the ship vigorously.

      And remember, never pass up an opportunity to watch an elephant paint Mozart.

      December 4, 2013 at 11:52 am |
      • Rainer Braendlein

        OMHS!

        December 4, 2013 at 11:53 am |
        • Jill

          Rainer Braendlein, don't obfuscate the primary prenuptials with rasberries. Cheese in the trees. Often, the pertinent cat presents fabled necessities in the parking chamfer. Realize your net precedent. Triangulate! Save the best for the alligators. Ever the bastille notches the orchestra but Wendy is not green and horses will capitulate. Filter out the log from the turnstile and cry prevalently.

          So there brown stare. Feed your inner walnut and resolve. Subject your lemon to the ingenious door in the presence of snow and animals. Aisle 7 is for the monetary cheese whiz. Faced with the kitchen, you may wish to prolong the sailboat in the cliff. Otherwise, rabbits may descend on your left nostril. Think about how you can stripe the sea.

          Regale the storm to those who (6) would thump the parrot with the armband. Corner the market on vestiges of the apparent closure but seek not the evidential circumstance. Therein you can find indignant mountains of pigs and apples. Descend eloquently as you debate the ceiling of your warning fulcrum. Vacate the corncob profusely and and don’t dote on the pancreas.

          Next up, control your wood. Have at the cat with your watch on the fore. Aft! Smarties (12)! Rome wasn’t kevetched in an autumn nightie. (42) See yourself for the turntable on the escalator. Really peruse the garage spider definitely again again with brown. Now we have an apparent congestion, so be it here. Just a moment is not a pod of beef for the ink well nor can it be (4) said that Karen was there in the millpond.

          Garbage out just like the candle in the kitty so. Go, go, go until the vacuum meets the upward vacation. Sell the yellow. Then trim the bus before the ten cheese please Louise. Segregate from the koan and stew the ship vigorously.

          And remember, never pass up an opportunity to watch an elephant paint Mozart.

          December 4, 2013 at 11:55 am |
  12. peter the great

    dm, if u r not 2 frightened and hypocritical, don't delete this 4 48 hrs.

    this website is biased and run by lying lazy welfare recipients

    t or f?

    December 4, 2013 at 10:16 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      Contribute something coherent and/or relevant and you might not get moderated into oblivion.
      Babble nonsense and non-sequitors and you'll find your posts MIA.

      December 4, 2013 at 11:26 am |
  13. Jesus' Beloved

    Continued 6:
    The rich young ruler said he had observed all those commandments all his life. According to Romans 3:23, which we already quoted, that wasn't true. Jesus knew that, so He told him to go and sell all that he had, give the money to the poor, and then come and follow Him. This was to show that he had broken the very first commandment, which was, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" (Ex. 20:3). His money was his god, and he proved it because he chose to keep his money rather than obey the Lord.

    The third thing he did wrong was that he didn't make Jesus his Lord (ruler and master). He was not willing to make a complete commitment of his life to the control of Jesus. Verse 20 says that Jesus loved him, but Jesus didn't change His standard. Unless a man is willing to make Jesus Lord of all, He can't be Lord at all (in that man's life).

    December 4, 2013 at 10:02 am |
    • danny

      All sales are final.

      December 4, 2013 at 10:05 am |
    • Science Works

      For sh-its and grins Jesus' Beloved.

      How is your housekeeping ?

      Dec. 3, 2013 — Scientists have found that Neanderthals organized their living spaces in ways that would be familiar to modern humans, a discovery that once again shows similarities between these two close cousins.

      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/12/131203091616.htm

      December 4, 2013 at 10:18 am |
      • Jesus' Beloved

        🙂 A Pleasant Good Morning to you too.

        Heaven is filled with absolute trust, confidence, and certainty in God.
        This earthly realm is filled with mistrust, unbelief, and uncertainty in God.
        You and I reflect the world we're most aware of, in my case the Spiritual.

        I have absolute trust, certainty, and confidence that the Lord created the heavens and the earth. He called forth what existed in the spiritual realm into the physical (earthly realm).

        Everything comes from a seed- one that produces after it's own kind.
        (It's impossible to get peas when you've sowed corn).

        God Bless you and Have a fantastic day. I pray that you will be blessed this day as never before in your life.
        God Bless.

        December 4, 2013 at 10:46 am |
        • Science Works

          Jesus' Beloved

          There is a device now that can create ghosts too !

          December 4, 2013 at 10:51 am |
        • igaftr

          Funny...I count at least 110 Gods that created everything...all of them are also the one true god....yours is no different....Ignorant people answer the question "where did we come from?" and ALL of them have the "right" answer.

          Good thing Jah was kind enough to create everything....or Huracan...or Quetzlcoatl...or jesus/God...or Ukulunkulu...or none of them since they are ALL created by men.

          December 4, 2013 at 10:54 am |
  14. Jesus' Beloved

    Continued 5:
    Second, he wanted to know what he could do to inherit eternal life. He was trying to reach God through his efforts, but he couldn't do enough good. He had sinned and come short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23). Many so-called Christians today are doing the same thing. They think that their church attendance or Bible reading, etc., will atone for their sin, but only the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ can cleanse us of our sin. All our efforts fall short. You may live better than someone else, but who wants to be the best sinner who ever went to hell? You need a savior.

    Jesus knew this man was incapable of saving himself. He didn't tell him to keep the Old Testament Law so that he could earn salvation. The Law wasn't given so we could keep it but rather to let us see that we have all sinned and need a savior (Rom. 3:19-20). Jesus ministered the Law to this man so that he would see his need and call out to Jesus for help.

    December 4, 2013 at 10:01 am |
    • danny

      What? Your receipt says something different than the last Christian's sales receipt? Did you buy from the same store?

      December 4, 2013 at 10:03 am |
  15. Jesus' Beloved

    Continued 4:
    This man was seeking the right thing, and he even came to the right Person, but he did a number of things wrong. First, he only acknowledged Jesus as being a good master (verse 17). Jesus answered by saying, "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." This rich young ruler was willing to acknowledge that Jesus was good, but he wouldn't go so far as to say He was God. Yet, one of the must crucial elements to salvation is believing that God was manifest in the flesh (1 Tim. 3:16).

    Every great leader of the different religions of the world has had to recognize the greatness of Jesus, but yet they have rejected His own claims to divinity. When Jesus was questioned by the chief priests, He admitted He was the Christ (Matt. 26:63-64). The chief priests and elders said that He had spoken blasphemy or ascribed divinity to Himself. Jesus had to be more than a good man to be a sacrifice for the whole human race. One man's life is only worth one man's life. But since Jesus was God, His life was worth more than all the people who had lived or ever will live on this earth. This young ruler made the mistake of recognizing Jesus as good, but not as God.

    December 4, 2013 at 10:00 am |
  16. Jesus' Beloved

    Continued 3:
    Hebrews 5:9 says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation, therefore His judgement is the only one that counts. Many people trust the fact that their names are on a church roll or that they have "IN GOD WE TRUST" written on their coins, but that's not the standard that Jesus used to administer salvation.

    Let's look at an account of Jesus ministering salvation. In Mark 10:17-22, we see an example of a man who really desired to have eternal life. He was actively pursuing it, which is evidenced by the fact that he ran to Jesus and knelt down at His feet. If desire or good intentions could obtain salvation, he would have gotten it. But Jesus, the author of eternal life, didn't accept his conditions. Many people today don't believe that it is really important what you believe. It's just your intentions that count. But this example proves that to be wrong.

    December 4, 2013 at 9:59 am |
    • danny

      Yes, if you're going to buy big at a sales event, it's good to check the fine print so you don't get surprised when you get home.

      December 4, 2013 at 10:01 am |
  17. Jesus' Beloved

    Continued:
    So God sent His Son Jesus in the likeness of sinful flesh to condemn sin in the flesh that we might come into right standing with God (Rom. 8:3-4). We are made acceptable to God through who Jesus is and what He did (Eph. 1:6). Jesus said of Himself that He was the only way unto the Father (John 14:6). Peter said in Acts 4:12, "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." God is the only One who could provide salvation for man, through Jesus; and any other attempts to approach unto God, regardless of how sincere they may be, will end in total failure with the result of eternal death.

    Most church-going people in America can accept all of this regarding other religions easily. But what many have failed to see is that much of what is called Christianity today is nothing but religion. By that, I mean that many people are going through the motions of Christianity thinking that their observance of Christian virtues will help them obtain salvation. But it is possible to be caught up in the trap of trying to be justified by your church attendance and financial receipts, just as much as the man who burns incense to idols to appease the gods.

    December 4, 2013 at 9:55 am |
    • Rainer Braendlein

      What about the Sermon on the Mount?

      December 4, 2013 at 10:05 am |
  18. Jesus' Beloved

    Good Morning ALL, just wanted to share a bit about Salvation and Belief taken from Andrew Wommack Ministries:

    Ever since the fall of Adam, man has been trying to find a way back to God. There is a longing within every person to be back in the image that God created them in. There is a knowledge that there must be something more. The religions of the world are a testimony to this scripture, from the first chapter of Romans, that God has revealed Himself to His creation. But man has devised nearly as many different ways to approach back unto God as there have been people.

    The difference between religion and Christianity is, basically, that religion is man's attempt to reach God, and Jesus is God reaching out to man. All the religions of the world fall short of obtaining salvation because they put the burden of salvation on man. They teach that through our adhering to a rigid standard of dos and don'ts, we make ourselves acceptable unto God. But God revealed in James 2:10 that if you keep the whole Law and yet offend in one point, you are guilty of all. This is where the religions of the world have missed it. They have all sinned and come short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23). Man cannot save himself; he has to have a savior.

    December 4, 2013 at 9:51 am |
    • danny

      "The difference between religion and Christianity is, basically, that religion is man's attempt to reach God, and Jesus is God reaching out to man. All the religions of the world fall short of obtaining salvation because they put the burden of salvation on man."

      You don't give the designers of Christianity enough credit. Man was already well on his way to creating things like Red Dot sales, Black Friday events, and reverse mortgages.

      December 4, 2013 at 10:00 am |
  19. Rainer Braendlein

    Mr. Obama is a friend of mine.

    "Did Francis leave a few barflies bruised and hurting during his bouncing days? No word on that from the Vatican yet."

    Unquote.

    That would not even matter, if the pope had really become a Christian. Simply remember St. Paul who was a Jewish "Taliban" before he became a Christian. When St. Paul still was a Jewish Taliban he gave his approval when St. Stephen was stoned to death. Furthermore brother Paul persecuted the Christian Church of Jerusalem and consigned many saints to prison, or even death penalty. During that time St. Paul was called Saul. However, even such a wrongdoer like Saul was forgiven. Saul became St.Paul. The resurrected Christ himself had encountered him, and had led him to Himself saying: "Saul, Saul why do you persecute me?"

    Awkwardly expressed it plays no role which sins or crimes somebody has comitted before conversion. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ is enough to forgive the worst sins and crimes, if somebody repents, believes, and gets sacramentally baptized.

    This pope is likeable but he holds an office which is bad in itself, and if the pope would take serious the Christian faith, he would immediately abandon his papal office. The papal office was never insti-tuted by Christ. The papal office is antipodal to Christ's office has invisible head of the Church. A human being is never able to lead Christ's or God's divine body, the Church; that can do only God or Christ himself. A divine body needs a divine head. A human being is not able to lead a divine body. Therefore, lacking Christ's leadership, the RCC has become a pi-sspot of heresies. The popes were overchallenged to decide highly complicated matters of the doctrine which former times were decided by council led by the Spirit of Christ having no visible head being free, and not predetermined.

    December 4, 2013 at 9:37 am |
    • danny

      Divinity RC-style; divinity RB-style; no difference really – to each his own delusion.

      December 4, 2013 at 9:53 am |
  20. Rainer Braendlein

    I guess behind the bouncer-pope story is the following theological issue:

    Long time there was no such a thing like conversion, neither in the Catholic Church nor in the Protestant Churches though conversion is a term of the New Testament, the consti-tution of the Early Church. Long time somebody got suspi-cious, if he was mentioning the term conversion. It was proscribed.

    In the Western World long time somebody was a Christian (in the sight of the society) simply when he was baptized, or had received infant baptism. It played nearly no role if he or she really followed Christ. Nobody was asking for conversion, that was no issue. Being baptized meant to be a Christian. Seemingly that pope is influenced by Catholic evangelicals which emphasize conversion, and want to establish a culture of conversion.

    Now, what is the opinion of the New Testament, the consti-tution of the Early Church.

    Infant baptism is a ecclesiastical habit of old. Yet, former times the parents of an infant to be baptized were true and pious believers. Never the Church had baptized infants of outrageous sinners or pagans like the churches do it today. That is the core of the problem. In a pious family God works miracles, and there even an infant can believe which is not possible in the secular world. An infant of secular parents should not be baptized. And when the churches started to fail to ask if the parents of an infant are really following Jesus, it began that many nominal Christians were bred. However, the infant baptism was even valid, only that the infants lacked the faith, and grew nominal Chrstians, lacking any education by pious parents, priests, relatives, etc. That the reason why we have so many secularized "Christians" in Europe.

    At least in Europe many people have been baptized as an infant. When they want to start to live as serious Christians, they should not be rebaptized but refer to their infant baptism. This is a kind of conversion but quite different from the evangelical conversion. Of course, somebody who has never been baptized can simply start to believe, and then getting baptized.

    There is no need that somebody becomes an outragesous sinner, like the pope as bouncer, before he or she can convert. Every ordinary Babbitt can convert – our life in the flesh or natural life before conversion plays no role. Christ admits everybody who repents, and believes, and gets sacramentally baptized.

    December 4, 2013 at 9:34 am |
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
Advertisement
About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.