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Satanists want statue next to 10 Commandments
A Ten Commandments monument erected outside the Oklahoma state Capitol.
December 9th, 2013
01:46 PM ET

Satanists want statue next to 10 Commandments

By Daniel Burke, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor
[twitter-follow screen_name='BurkeCNN']

(CNN) - Lots of lawmakers have been accused of devilish behavior, but Oklahoma's state capitol may become the first to actually have a monument to Satan.

If a New York-based group called the Temple of Satan gets its way, a statue of the Evil One would sit next to the recently erected 10 Commandments monument on state capitol grounds.

"They said they wanted to be open to different monuments," said Lucien Greaves, a spokesman for the Temple of Satan, "and this seems like a perfect place to put that to the test."

Greaves and some legal experts say the Constitution is clear: the government can't endorse one particular religion. So, if a state capitol has a monument to one faith, it must allow monuments to others as well.

The Temple of Satan is less a religious body organized around rituals and regular meetings than a roving band of political provocateurs, said Greaves. They believe Satan is a "literary construct," the spokesman said, not an actual being with horns and hooves.

Last year, the Temple organized a gay and lesbian kiss-in at the gravesite of the mother of anti-gay preacher and activist the Rev. Fred Phelps. It also held a rally at Florida's state capitol in support of a law that allows "inspirational messages" at public school assemblies.

"It allows us to spread the message of Satanism," which centers around respect for diversity and religious minorities, said Greaves.

Oklahoma legislators voted to erect the Ten Commandments monument in 2009, using private funds donated by Rep. Mike Rietz, a surgeon and Southern Baptist deacon.

Rietz declined to comment on the Satanists' proposal on Monday, citing an separate and ongoing dispute with the American Civil Liberties Union over the Ten Commandments monument.

Oklahoma state Rep. Bob Cleveland told CNN that he's not in favor of the Satanist's proposed statue.

"I believe that only monuments that reflect Oklahoma values should be allowed on capitol the capitol grounds," Cleveland said in an e-mail on Monday.

But if Christians and Jews can have their monument to the 10 Commandments, then Satanists must be allowed to erect their own statue, said Brady Henderson, legal director of the American Civil Liberty Union's Oklahoma chapter.

"We feel like the Satanic Temple has a very strong argument to say that, if the state allows one religious monument, you have to allow others," Henderson said.

Oklahoma's statehouse grounds already has monuments honoring its heritage and Native American history, said Trait Thompson, chair of the Capitol Preservation Commission.

"Individuals and groups are free to apply to place a monument or statue or artwork," Thompson said.

The commission then determines whether the proposal abides by its standards and votes on whether to approve it.

Greaves said he's received the required forms from Oklahoma's Capitol Preservation Commission and is working on a design that will meet its standards.

"We want something big and bold that will be able to stand up to the weather or whatever other kinds of assaults," that may target the monument, he said.

"My favorite idea right now is an object of play for children. We want kids to see that Satanism is where the fun is."

The Temple of Satan created a Indiegogo fundraising page on Monday, but have thus far only publicly raised $150 towards its goal of $20,000.

Not all Satanist groups see the fun in political provocations.

Magus Peter Gilmore, head of the Church of Satan, which was founded by Anton LaVey in 1966, said he believes in strict separation of church and state.

"Rather than placing multiple 'advertisements' for various religions, we think it best for the (10 Commandments) monument to be removed to private property and that there be no objects supporting religion of any sort placed on the statehouse grounds," Gilmore said.

Earlier this year, Gilmore's Church of Satan squared off against a British group of Satanists over abortion rights, after activists shouted "Hail Satan" to drown out anti-abortion activists at the Texas state capitol.

READ MORE: Satanists square off on abortion (Yes, really)

- CNN Religion Editor

Filed under: Belief • Church and state • Culture wars • Devil • Satanism

soundoff (3,610 Responses)
  1. lol??

    The A&A's sure put a lot of effort into practicin' for their 15 minutes of game. Even Jesus didn't try to do it all in 15 minutes.

    December 10, 2013 at 3:07 pm |
  2. Apple Bush

    As a nihilist, I reject all of the commandments. Life has no point nor objective so the rules that govern are unimportant. Cultures determine right and wrong based on what benefits them the most.

    December 10, 2013 at 3:04 pm |
    • lol??

      Socies have wrung out any point of gubmints, fer sure.

      December 10, 2013 at 3:11 pm |
  3. CommonSensed

    Another good example of be careful what you wish for. Secular means just that. If you want to have religious iconography, prayers or chaplains in your government then don't be surprised when others will want the same thing for religions you disagree with.

    December 10, 2013 at 3:03 pm |
    • Akira

      I don't know why some people don't understand the simplicity if this statement.

      December 10, 2013 at 4:35 pm |
  4. Sunshine

    I just have one comment. May God have mercy on all of you who do not believe in his existence. It is because of him you are alive to even make a post no matter how true or idiotic it may be .Further more, I would rather see the ten commandment monument removed before seeing a monument of Satan erected by it.

    December 10, 2013 at 2:59 pm |
    • Apple Bush

      It is cute how you believe in gods and devils.

      December 10, 2013 at 3:05 pm |
    • Charm Quark

      Do you not find it ironic that you, a person like you, can communicate on this blog but your all powerful seems to be stuck in the first century? God don't tweet.

      December 10, 2013 at 3:06 pm |
    • Street Epistemologist In Training

      Why do you believe in some god? How do you know your beliefs are correct? What would it take to make you change your beliefs? Are you pretending to know things you don't?

      December 10, 2013 at 3:07 pm |
    • Alias

      That is exactly the point they are making.
      I agree with them.
      I'll stop short of "Hail Satan!', but they are right this time.

      December 10, 2013 at 3:08 pm |
  5. The ten

    1.Do not worship any other god than the one true God.

    2.Do not make idols or images in the form of God.

    3.Do not take the name of the Lord God in vain.

    4. Keep the sabbath holy.

    5.Honor your father and mother.

    6.Do not murder.

    7.Do not commit adultery.

    8.Do not steal .

    9.Do not bear false witness.

    10.Do not covet.

    December 10, 2013 at 2:59 pm |
    • The satanist ten

      1. Worship yourself and any other god other than the one true God.

      2. Make idols or images and worship these.

      3. Ok to take the name of the Lord God in vain .

      4. Do not keep the Sabbath, instead do drugs and be wasted.

      5. Do not Honor your father and mother and disobey them.

      6. Abortion is not murder.

      7.Commit adultery and enjoy!

      8.Steal what is not yours.

      9.Bear false witness.

      10. Always look to what your neighbor has and covet.

      December 10, 2013 at 3:04 pm |
      • Cory, CT

        Seen a lot of Satanists that practice the "Satanist Ten"

        December 10, 2013 at 3:15 pm |
    • truthprevails1

      The are much better and not one of them demands idolatry.

      THE HUMANIST TEN COMMANDMENTS

      1) Thou shalt strive to promote the greater good of humanity before all selfish desires.

      2) Thou shalt be curious, for asking questions is the only way to find answers.

      3) Harm to your fellow human is harm to humanity. Therefore, thou shalt not kill, rape, rob, or otherwise victimize anyone.

      4) Thou shall treat all humans as equals, regardless of race, gender, age, creed, identity, orientation, physical ability, or status.

      5) Thou shalt use reason as your guide. Science, knowledge, observation, and rational anlysis are the best ways to determine any course of action.

      6) Thou shalt not force your beliefs onto others, nor insist that yours be the only and correct way to live happily.

      7) If thou dost govern, thou shalt govern with reason, not with supersttion. Religion should have no place in any government which represents all people and beliefs.

      8) Thou shalt act for the betterment of your fellow humans, and be, whenever possible, altruistic in your deeds.

      9) Thou shalt be good to the Earth and its bounties, for without it, humankind is lost.

      10) Thou shalt impart thy knowledge and wisdom gained in your lifetime to the next generation, so that with each passing century, humanity will grow wiser and more humane.

      December 10, 2013 at 3:08 pm |
    • Ten More

      1.Do not horsewhip any other dog than the one true Dog.

      2.Do not make Billy idols or images in the form of past 1980's rock stars.

      3.Do not take the name of the LordGod, anyone named LordGod will be shot.

      4. Keep the sadbath holy, but keep the happybath for everyday.

      5.Honor your father and mother with an embarasing drunken toast at your brothers wedding

      6.Do not murder unless they do something you really don't like, then tell everyone God wants them dead...

      7.Do not commit adultery, unless she is really really hot, or maybe just drunk, then do it but blame Satan.

      8.Do not steal anothers blog handle.

      9.Do not bare false witnesses, bare them boobies.

      10.Do not covet your neghbors ass, I mean donkey!!

      December 10, 2013 at 3:11 pm |
    • Honey Badger Don't Care

      Those are not THE ten commandments.

      December 10, 2013 at 3:21 pm |
  6. Stinky Balloon Knot

    Kiss me Christians! You get your monument, we get ours!

    December 10, 2013 at 2:53 pm |
  7. oo oo

    I dominate

    December 10, 2013 at 2:43 pm |
  8. Where was your God then?

    Satan took my football one blustery Oklahoma Saturday afternoon. He took it and tossed it right into someone’s back yard. My step father told me if I lost that football I would get the tar beaten out of me, and he meant it.

    It was gone and no one answered the door. It was the longest walk home of my life. I threw up, shivered and cried, but I kept walking.

    I told him what had happened, an overthrown pass, an overgrown tree, an empty house. But I knew what was next and soon the blood trickled down the back of my thighs.

    December 10, 2013 at 2:42 pm |
    • oo oo

      L

      December 10, 2013 at 2:44 pm |
  9. Apple Bush

    I am in favor of Satanists. I wish there were more but the few we have are great.

    December 10, 2013 at 2:34 pm |
    • oo oo

      O

      December 10, 2013 at 2:45 pm |
  10. Apple Bush

    I loves me some crazy-ass Satanists man. I might even read this article.

    December 10, 2013 at 2:32 pm |
    • oo oo

      L

      December 10, 2013 at 2:46 pm |
  11. K-switch

    @LofA

    First, If you included,

    "Although the argument in no way maintains that "God" exists, specifically, the God of the Bible, it does get one to logically and philosophically understand that the existence of a first cause that is self-existent is necessary."

    In your posts it would save you a bit of time in responding to posters such as myself.

    Second, you're just playing word games

    su·per·nat·u·ral/ˌsupərˈnætʃərəl, -ˈnætʃrəl/ Show Spelled [soo-per-nach-er-uhl, -nach-ruhl] Show IPA
    adjective
    1. of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.
    2. of, pertaining to, characteristic of, or attributed to God or a deity.
    3. of a superlative degree; preternatural: a missile of supernatural speed.
    4. of, pertaining to, or attributed to ghosts, goblins, or other unearthly beings; eerie; occult.

    You have already admitted that your argument cannot prove definition #2. I doubt you care about #3 or #4. So let's address #1, key word, UNEXPLAINABLE. Just because something is unexplainable now, does not mean it will be forever. Many unexplainable phenomena have been attributed to the supernatural and later proven to be completely natural.

    December 10, 2013 at 2:21 pm |
    • Lawrence of Arabia

      I maintain that if you wish to disprove the argument, then you must give examples of physical ent.ities that are non-contingent and immutable. Otherwise the argument for the supernatural is still valid.

      December 10, 2013 at 2:39 pm |
      • Some Antics

        I maintain that if you wish to prove the argument, then you must give examples of non-physical ent.ities, contingent or not, anything supernatural, anything empirical. Otherwise the argument for the supernatural is invalid.

        December 10, 2013 at 2:43 pm |
        • Lawrence of Arabia

          The argument for the supernatural is logically valid.
          The proof of the supernatural exists in the fact that there must be a first cause, as proven in the logical argument. There can be no purely physical explanation for the existence of the physical universe.

          December 10, 2013 at 2:55 pm |
        • Some Antics

          I disagree, your logic is flawed due to lack of data. You have yet to provide a single shred of what you deem "supernatural". If you want to claim that quantum mechanics is "supernatural" that would at least be a start, but just because quantum mechanics breaks some of the rules of our universe doesn't mean it's supernatural, it just means we don't have a complete picture of how the two interact. Your premise of everything being contingent doesn't hold water either as you have no evidence of anything that is not contingent either and in fact have zero evidence of a creator being who you claim is the non-contingent integer, you may as well refer to it/him/her as "X" which you can multiply times anything and always get the answer you desire. Well that game is for children so have fun swimming in the shallow end of mental engagement and leave the real thinking to others.

          December 10, 2013 at 3:03 pm |
        • Lawrence of Arabia

          Some Antics,
          So your go-to position is a childish temper tantrum and insulting? Wow, I'm just waiting for yo' mama insults now.

          Every physical enti.ty is contingent. To disprove that, all you have to do is show me one that isn't.
          Since contingency exists, a causal chain exists, and no causal chain can be infinite.
          So, if a finite causal chain exists, then a First Cause that is non-contingent must exist.

          The only other fall back position is that through Big Bang mysticism, something can come from nothing, but then, that by definition is supernatural.

          As I said – there is no purely physical explanation for our physical universe.

          December 10, 2013 at 3:09 pm |
        • ?

          Some Antics maybe be too polite to call you a lying ass hole. I on the other hand am a supernatural enti ty. I am one of the legion of Satanists, fear my name. Your conclusions are BS, but you know that.

          December 10, 2013 at 3:18 pm |
        • Some Antics

          The universe could have always existed in some form or another. The big bang may have just been the transfer of energy from one state, possibly dark matter, to another state, matter. It may have been doing this in an endless loop which is what I will continue to believe until some empirical evidence shows otherwise. To say that because we don't know for sure what the origins are the religious can claim the prime origin as their own, name it and give it ultimate power and then by proxy start demanding fealty and collecting alms but somehow never managing to send them on to God (maybe they lost his mailing address) is the height of hubris and idiocy. Either that or the height of confidence artists.

          December 10, 2013 at 4:13 pm |
        • Lawrence of Arabia

          But infinite causal chains cannot exist. By definition, causality has a beginning. It may not necessarily have an ending, but causality demands a beginning.

          December 10, 2013 at 4:23 pm |
        • Street Epistemologist In Training

          Re: initial cause, how do you know what you believe is in fact correct? Are you 100% certain? Isn't "I don't know." a better, more honest, answer than "Some (unproven) god did it."? Aren't you pretending to know things you don't?

          December 10, 2013 at 4:29 pm |
      • ?

        Second, you're only playing word games. Third, fourth, fifth....you're only playing word games but that is what you have always done. A pompous arrogant ass that can only be described as Chad like on this blog. You're welcome to stop right soon.

        December 10, 2013 at 2:51 pm |
      • Charm Quark

        LofA
        The argument for the supernatural is well, supernatural, got it. Replicate a supernatural even and it will no longer be magic.

        December 10, 2013 at 2:55 pm |
        • Charm Quark

          event

          December 10, 2013 at 2:56 pm |
  12. Mary

    Why would anyone want to be a Satanist, if most people think that evil is bad, and they shun and abhor evil and want nothing to do with it?

    December 10, 2013 at 2:20 pm |
    • K-switch

      Satan doesn't make you feel guilty for jerking off.

      December 10, 2013 at 2:23 pm |
    • Youtube video - "Context!!!!!!"

      They probably keep it quiet so they don't have to fear what most people think (or may do).

      December 10, 2013 at 2:25 pm |
    • Great Toast

      The Satanist of the article isn't the Satan that you believe in, Mary – you know the mischievous one:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JuSfRgh0Vo

      December 10, 2013 at 2:28 pm |
    • Again?

      The only obective evil are morons who delete posts they know they cannot refute or argue against so they resort to sabotage.

      December 10, 2013 at 2:47 pm |
    • Alias

      Why is it so hard for you to understand that have different beliefs?
      They don't believe in your bible.
      They do not see satan as evil.

      December 10, 2013 at 3:18 pm |
  13. Charm Quark

    As a public service I am beginning the Anti-Topher Times, which will highlight the stories that creationist believers have to deny as bad science in order to protect their delusion.
    Fresh water lake discovered that could have supported life on Mars.
    Earliest hominid DNA discovered that is estimated to be 400,000 years old.
    Just a sample more to come in future posts.

    December 10, 2013 at 2:18 pm |
    • Apple Bush

      Topher deserves this anthology!

      December 10, 2013 at 2:29 pm |
  14. Doc Vestibule

    Perhaps we could erect a nice pagan monument with the Prayer of Eusebius (directed to the Greek gods).

    "May I be no man's enemy, and may I be the friend of that which is eternal and abides.
    May I never devise evil against any man; if any devise evil against me, may I escape without the need of hurting him.
    May I love, seek, and attain only that which is good.
    May I wish for all men's happiness and envy none.
    When I have done or said what is wrong, may I never wait for the rebuke of others, but always rebuke myself until I make amends.
    May I win no victory that harms either me or my opponent.
    May I reconcile friends who are wroth with one another.
    May I, to the extent of my power, give all needful help to all who are in want.
    May I never fail a friend in danger.
    May I respect myself.
    May I always keep tame that which rages within me.
    May I never discuss who is wicked and what wicked things he has done, but know good men and follow in their footsteps."

    – The Prayer of Eusebius

    December 10, 2013 at 2:16 pm |
    • Youtube video - "Context!!!!!!"

      And exactly who is going to fund the erection of those at every site where more monuments like the ten commandments would then be erected. Christian pockets are deep, and this will lead to more religion in government. We don't want this.

      December 10, 2013 at 2:22 pm |
  15. Lionly Lamb

    Evil Christians are worse than righteous Satanists...

    December 10, 2013 at 2:13 pm |
  16. David

    The Ten Commandments should be tenets that every person can agree with, regardless of religious beliefs.

    December 10, 2013 at 1:42 pm |
    • igaftr

      false.
      As an atheist, how am I to uphold the commandments that tell one how to behave towards god, when I do not believe there are any gods?

      The 10 commandments are a part of YOUR religion.

      Some of my personal moral compass happens to agree with some of the others, but then those aren't specific to christianity either.

      December 10, 2013 at 1:46 pm |
    • Doc Vestibule

      Even the first three?

      December 10, 2013 at 1:47 pm |
    • Some Antics

      Please list them all David without looking them up. If they are that special and should be for all mankind you should know them all by heart and follow them to the letter, right David?

      December 10, 2013 at 2:07 pm |
      • Lawrence of Arabia

        Some Antics,
        So you DON'T have the 10 Commandments memorized?

        December 10, 2013 at 2:12 pm |
        • Some Antics

          Of course I do, which is why I know most other people do not know them for if they did they would be saying things like "Don't make any idols? But I love American Idol!" or "But the sabbath is just for Jews, right?" and "What the heck is covet?"

          Most religious persons do not take their religion seriously enough to actual spend the time researching it to know what the heII they claim to believe, they just go along with the crowd so they feel like they fit in and say the amens when prompted. It's sad but I believe the majority of christians are just audience members, not actual participating in their religions on any real level. The few who do are very rare and many of those leave their faiths as they learn more and more about what it actually claims.

          December 10, 2013 at 2:24 pm |
        • Lawrence of Arabia

          Some Antics,
          I agree with everything you just said... Which is why apologists and evangelists have the biggest challenges IN the churches...

          December 10, 2013 at 2:58 pm |
    • Justice

      I don't know but if they were on the bottom of a totem pole, they'd be one step above athiests. Atleast, they believe in something and wouldn't use a belief blog to spread their propaganda, agenda and lies.

      December 10, 2013 at 2:14 pm |
      • igaftr

        I am an atheist and I believe in many things. Why should I NOT come to a BELIEF blog to discuss those beliefs?

        Did you expect to come here to preach to the choir? Must've been a shock to see people of MANY beliefs, huh?

        December 10, 2013 at 2:19 pm |
        • Justice

          No, a REAL athiest? My condolences.

          December 10, 2013 at 2:28 pm |
      • Justice

        Not my comment. But it was a good one. Hahaha, no.

        December 10, 2013 at 2:20 pm |
      • Madtown

        This is the guy/gal ripping on someone earlier for not being civil. LOL.

        December 10, 2013 at 2:21 pm |
      • doobzz

        And you'd still have to look up to see an "athiest".

        December 10, 2013 at 2:38 pm |
      • Thinker...

        You know what is funny? The 'Satanists' described here are actually atheists that use your devil as a prop to demonstrate their point.

        December 11, 2013 at 3:43 pm |
  17. Topher

    JW

    Don't know if you're hanging around, dude, but I was hoping you'd watch this ... it'll only take about 4 minutes of your time.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7zElCRwNgI

    December 10, 2013 at 1:22 pm |
    • igaftr

      proof?
      not even close...that is opinion based on false premise.

      December 10, 2013 at 1:24 pm |
      • Madtown

        Yeah, but Topher's opinions are the correct ones, that we all should have. He'll verify this with you shortly.

        December 10, 2013 at 1:30 pm |
        • scientist

          The same way some atheists behave, too.

          December 10, 2013 at 1:33 pm |
        • Madtown

          Absolutely. A lot people think they're right, about everything. It's almost as if religion and it's derivatives are of human origin, chock full of human subjectivity.

          December 10, 2013 at 1:42 pm |
    • Lucifer's Evil Twin

      LET's Religiosity Law #10 – If you believe any of the christian ass-clowns on television (or the radio) are “helping” you get closer to Jesus and not doing it to get your money, but also have the capacity to be shocked when their misdeeds/lies eventually come to light… well, you are an imbecile. This law is immutable.

      December 10, 2013 at 1:29 pm |
      • Lawrence of Arabia

        Apply that "immutable" law to Dr. John MacArthur.... Ready? GO!
        *crickets*

        December 10, 2013 at 1:48 pm |
        • Some Antics

          Yeah! LoA found one that hasn't flocked up yet! Hooray! Let's all celebrate the one Christian who hasn't shown himself to be a complete hypocrite yet!

          December 10, 2013 at 1:56 pm |
        • Lawrence of Arabia

          OK, how about these then?
          R.C. Sproul
          Steve Lawson
          Justin Peters
          Paul Washer
          Should I keep going?

          December 10, 2013 at 1:59 pm |
        • HotAirAce

          LofA, have the misdeeds/lies of the shamans you listed come to light yet? If not, you cannot apply LET's Law to them – yet.

          December 10, 2013 at 2:32 pm |
        • Lawrence of Arabia

          HotAirAce,
          Your assumptions are getting in the way. Rather than assuming that no Christian believes what he preaches, assume that MANY believe and act in accordance to what they preach.

          December 10, 2013 at 2:42 pm |
      • HotAirAce

        You wanted the law applied to a number of shamans, but the conditions for the law have not been met so your request/challenge is invalid.

        December 10, 2013 at 3:00 pm |
    • Billy

      I almost forgot about the great JW Topher debates. I kind of miss that claymation show Celebrity Deathmatch, and would much like to see that revived with this debate represented as its first new match.

      December 10, 2013 at 1:30 pm |
      • Lucifer's Evil Twin

        Awesome... I'm getting to bring out all of my LET-isms...

        The highest form of ignorance... is one dumbass Christian telling another dumbass Christian that they are not really Christian... because (insert whatever dumbass thing they believe differentiates them from each other)…

        December 10, 2013 at 1:34 pm |
    • Lawrence of Arabia

      Awesome... LOVE Wretched TV/Radio

      December 10, 2013 at 1:37 pm |
      • Lucifer's Evil Twin

        I'm shocked

        December 10, 2013 at 1:38 pm |
        • Lawrence of Arabia

          Yeah, swimming with electric eels will do that every time.

          December 10, 2013 at 1:40 pm |
    • EnjaySea

      I watched your video. It's interesting from a historical perspective. But how is that proof of Jesus' divinity? The fact that someone wrote it down is proof? Nice try.

      Anyone can write anything down, in any century, in any language. The act of penning it to parchment does not cause the writer's opinions to be true. Not then, not now, not ever.

      December 10, 2013 at 1:38 pm |
      • Some Antics

        Josephus and Tacitus both wrote about Hercules, I guess he really lived and was a demi-god too...

        December 10, 2013 at 1:58 pm |
        • Check

          Yes, and Thallus (another one of their go-to guys) also wrote about Cronos and Zeus and the T.itan gods.

          December 10, 2013 at 2:06 pm |
  18. Charles

    Hell is necessary to remind people of how wrong they were.
    It's not enough just to annihilate them, because then they will never know.

    December 10, 2013 at 1:11 pm |
    • danny

      "Hell is necessary to remind people of how wrong they were."

      Like in a previous life?

      December 10, 2013 at 1:16 pm |
    • Lucifer's Evil Twin

      Hell is not necessary... we already have NJ, KS, MS, MO, OK, TX, AZ, etc...

      December 10, 2013 at 1:17 pm |
      • Justice

        And don't forget Mississippi...

        December 10, 2013 at 1:32 pm |
        • Lucifer's Evil Twin

          Seriously? What do you think MS stands for?

          December 10, 2013 at 1:36 pm |
        • Lawrence of Arabia

          Multiple Sclerosis

          December 10, 2013 at 1:41 pm |
        • Science Works

          Hey Larry you from MS by chance ?

          December 10, 2013 at 1:46 pm |
        • Lawrence of Arabia

          Nope, I'm next door in GA.

          December 10, 2013 at 1:49 pm |
        • Science Works

          Down there by AL KY and the creation museum and TN home of the ICR ?

          December 10, 2013 at 1:57 pm |
        • Lawrence of Arabia

          Science Works,
          Before you comment on the deep South, remember, it was Yankees who gave us Punkin' Chunkin'

          December 10, 2013 at 2:01 pm |
        • Science Works

          Larry

          Oh forgot FL they have the same problem as OK and had to let a Big A monument be erected !

          December 10, 2013 at 2:11 pm |
      • LaurenMD

        Hey, I've lived in Oklahoma and Kansas my entire life! I disagree with your comment about these lovely places as having some Earthly resemblance to Hell. Hell is something that people create in their minds, and live believing themselves to be permanent residents of their own personal Hell. The opposite is true for people determined to have a good time and see the positive more or less consistently. This is possible in ANY state or country.
        😀

        December 10, 2013 at 2:11 pm |
    • Akira

      And they say hell is for children, also.

      December 10, 2013 at 1:21 pm |
      • Topher

        That's not what Christianity teaches.

        December 10, 2013 at 1:23 pm |
        • Akira

          Just answering the OP.

          That, and LET got me on a musical bent.

          December 10, 2013 at 1:27 pm |
        • Lucifer's Evil Twin

          At least 2 of the 10,000 christian cults say otherwise... Catholicism and Mormonism. I am sure there are more... but I don't care enough to bother researching

          December 10, 2013 at 1:32 pm |
        • Topher

          Neither Mormonism nor Catholicism is part of Biblical Christianity.

          December 10, 2013 at 1:47 pm |
        • Akira

          The Mormons, and Billy Graham, disagree.
          So do the Catholics.
          So do you, Topher, when it comes to the JW's.
          Can you honestly say that religion isn't divisive, when you can't agree what it even means?

          December 10, 2013 at 1:52 pm |
        • Madtown

          If they would only follow the religious leanings of Topher, the correct ones, then there would be no division at all?

          December 10, 2013 at 1:56 pm |
        • Topher

          Akira

          "Can you honestly say that religion isn't divisive, when you can't agree what it even means?"

          I don't mind it being divisive if all that means is that we disagree. And especially when you talk about religion, which just means it's man's ideas on how we can get to God. But I'm not interested in man's ideas. I'm interested in what God says and He says we CAN'T get there. And technically, that's why Christianity is not a religion.

          December 10, 2013 at 2:02 pm |
        • Madtown

          that's why Christianity is not a religion.
          ----
          LOL. Any other words that you make up your own definition of, that you'd care to share?

          December 10, 2013 at 2:06 pm |
        • Akira

          Ok, let's use your term then.
          Christianity is divisive.
          Is that better?

          December 10, 2013 at 2:07 pm |
        • Topher

          I guess that depends on what you mean by divisive. Again, if you're saying it's divisive because we disagree with atheists, sure.

          December 10, 2013 at 2:21 pm |
        • Akira

          Sigh. No, that's not what I'm talking about, and I suspect you know that, Topher.

          December 10, 2013 at 2:39 pm |
        • Topher

          I honestly don't, Akira. Help me out.

          December 10, 2013 at 3:56 pm |
    • truthprevails1

      And if hell is real (hahahaha) it will most certainly be almost all of the christians going there. What a truly absurd and immoral concept to accept...your fellow humans being tortured!

      December 10, 2013 at 1:41 pm |
      • Lawrence of Arabia

        Justice to evildoers is immoral? So, you don't believe in the prison system then?

        December 10, 2013 at 1:42 pm |
        • Akira

          Can people on hell eventually get out of hell? Because most prisoners get out of prison.

          December 10, 2013 at 1:54 pm |
        • Lawrence of Arabia

          Akira,
          Hell is not intended as a corrective kind of punishment. Rather, Hell is a reflection of God’s punitive wrath. That is, Hell is not designed for correction but as a reflection of God’s ultimate justice.

          Like a life sentence given to a convicted serial killer, hell is designed to be a permanent incarceration given to those who refuse to repent of their sins.

          December 10, 2013 at 2:05 pm |
        • Akira

          I understand the concept of hell, LoA.
          It seems disingenuous to liken it to our prison system, which is what you did, and what I responded to.

          December 10, 2013 at 2:16 pm |
        • Madtown

          ...permanent incarceration given to those who refuse to repent of their sins
          ----
          For some humans, this "refusal" entails NOT accepting a savior that they have no idea exists, and have never heard of. Justice?

          December 10, 2013 at 2:26 pm |
        • truthprevails1

          How the hell is it justice? First off, outside of your huge book there is no evidence that such a place exists. Second, prison is very valid but it does not involve burning in a pit of fire. How am I an evil doer??? I work, I donate, I love my neighbor-great people, I love my family...I do smoke cigarettes but I don't drink, I live a relatively clean life...and yet because I have failed to see evidence for your god or any other god, I am doomed to this burning pit...how is that moral??

          December 10, 2013 at 2:43 pm |
        • Lawrence of Arabia

          "For some humans, this "refusal" entails NOT accepting a savior that they have no idea exists, and have never heard of. Justice?"
          ----------–
          People don't go to hell because they never heard of Jesus – they go to hell because they are sinners.

          December 10, 2013 at 2:43 pm |
        • Madtown

          they go to hell because they are sinners.
          ---
          Ok. Then, how do they avoid hell?

          December 10, 2013 at 2:46 pm |
      • Charles

        It reconciles injustices done in this world, when bad people are not punished enough, if at all.

        December 10, 2013 at 1:54 pm |
        • truthprevails1

          Charles: And you're so certain of this how exactly??? Have you had the chance to speak with someone or perhaps read a peer reviewed article about someone who has been to this place???
          Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary evidence. (Carl Sagan)

          December 10, 2013 at 2:45 pm |
  19. Lucifer's Evil Twin

    LZ 1975 8:28

    Oh let the sun beat down upon my face, stars to fill my dream
    I am a traveler of both time and space, to be where I have been
    To sit with elders of the gentle race, this world has seldom seen
    They talk of days for which they sit and wait and all will be revealed

    Talk and song from tongues of lilting grace, whose sounds caress my ear
    But not a word I heard could I relate, the story was quite clear
    Oh, oh.

    Oh, I been flying... mama, there aint no denyin
    Ive been flying, aint no denyin, no denyin

    All I see turns to brown, as the sun burns the ground
    And my eyes fill with sand, as I scan this wasted land
    Trying to find, trying to find where Ive been.

    Oh, pilot of the storm who leaves no trace, like thoughts inside a dream
    Heed the path that led me to that place, yellow desert stream
    My shangri-la beneath the summer moon, I will return again
    Sure as the dust that floats high in June, when movin through Kashmir

    Oh, father of the four winds, fill my sails, across the sea of years
    With no provision but an open face, along the straits of fear
    Ohh.

    When Im on, when Im on my way, yeah
    When I see, when I see the way, you stay-yeah

    Ooh, yeah-yeah, ooh, yeah-yeah, when Im down...
    Ooh, yeah-yeah, ooh, yeah-yeah, well Im down, so down
    Ooh, my baby, ooooh, my baby, let me take you there

    Let me take you there. let me take you there

    December 10, 2013 at 1:07 pm |
    • Akira

      I love the song Kashmir. Just adore it.

      December 10, 2013 at 1:19 pm |
      • Lucifer's Evil Twin

        One of the greatest rock songs ever written or played...

        December 10, 2013 at 1:26 pm |
        • Akira

          ITA.
          Now it's running through my mind...thanks!

          December 10, 2013 at 1:47 pm |
        • Doc Vestibule

          Just listen to the Puff Daddy (Diddy? Puffy? Pee Doodly? Pig Diddler?) version and it'll ruin the song for you.

          December 10, 2013 at 1:57 pm |
        • Akira

          NO!!!!
          Why would PDiddle DO that??

          December 10, 2013 at 2:04 pm |
        • doobzz

          Got to see JP and RP perform it with the string section from the Cleveland symphony orchestra – it was one of the best concert moments I've ever had. That and the hurry gurdy version of When the Levee Breaks.

          It's one of my all time favorites too, Akira.

          NOT going to listen to the DooDad version.

          December 10, 2013 at 2:23 pm |
        • Doc Vestibule

          I made my own P. Doodly song some time ago.
          Having spent several painstaking minutes absorbing the complexities of Diddy's musical craftsmanship, I am confident that my skill set, or "skillz" for those of you more ebonically inclined, should now rocket me to the top of the charts.
          Stolen hook from a bad eighties song? Check.
          Phat beat? Check plus.
          Monosyllabic grunting? Check plus mate.
          Despite the difficulty of expressing the kind of nuanced, poetic lyrics for which Diddy is known, I am confident I have conveyed the gritty realness of ghetto life.

          The track is "Whip It" (I think its still there – work firewall prohibits social media)
          http://www.myspace.com/docvestibule/
          (Yep – still haven't put the ol' myspace page out of its misery)

          December 10, 2013 at 2:50 pm |
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About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.