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Police: Son of Obama's spiritual adviser committed suicide
Isaac Hunter, the son of a spiritual adviser to President Barack Obama, died Tuesday in Florida, police say.
December 10th, 2013
11:03 PM ET

Police: Son of Obama's spiritual adviser committed suicide

By Daniel Burke, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor
[twitter-follow screen_name='BurkeCNN']

(CNN) - The son of a Florida megachurch pastor who is close to President Barack Obama has died, apparently of a self-inflicted gunshot wound, according to local police.

Isaac Hunter, 36, died Tuesday, according to Northland and Summit churches, two Orlando-area congregations with deep ties to his family.

Altamonte Springs Police Department spokesman Robert C. Pelton said officers responded to a call to check on the well-being of Hunter at 10:45 a.m. Tuesday. They found him dead, apparently of a self-inflicted gunshot wound, Pelton said. The investigation is ongoing, and no foul play is suspected, he added.

Hunter is the son of Joel Hunter, an evangelical who has been a spiritual adviser to Obama since his 2008 presidential campaign. The president and the pastor speak nearly once a week, and Joel Hunter was an adviser to the White House Office of Faith-based and Neighborhood Partnerships.

Isaac Hunter and his wife, Rhonda, were going through a divorce, according to Florida court records. Hunter resigned as senior pastor of Summit Church in 2012 after acknowledging a three-year affair with a member of the church staff.

"All of us are grieving for the Hunter family, and we will deeply miss Isaac. Words cannot express the sorrow we're feeling," said a statement by Vernon Rainwater, a pastor at Northland, which is based in Longwood, Florida.

"We love this family and are so grateful for the impact they have had on each of our lives. I have loved Isaac since he was a child, and I know this ... Isaac loved Jesus. And we are assured of his continuing relationship with Christ now in heaven."

With several campuses in central Florida, Northland is one of the largest evangelical churches in the state. Like his father, Isaac Hunter had been an evangelical megachurch pastor, a leader of Summit Church in Orlando.

"By now you may have heard that our former Senior Pastor, Isaac Hunter, died today," Pastor Jeff Kern wrote on Summit's website. "As I write these words, it is hard to express the deep sorrow we as a staff team are feeling for this tragic loss.

"Our thoughts and prayers are with his wife, Rhonda, their three children and their extended family. We love them and it is our desire to support them in any way we can during this difficult time," Kern continued.

"As we look back on Isaac’s ministry here at Summit, we are profoundly grateful for the impact he had in all of our lives. We know that Isaac is deeply loved by Jesus, even in a time of brokenness ...," he wrote.

Cameron Strang, the founder of an Orlando-based evangelical magazine, described Isaac Hunter as a friend and former pastor who had "some significant struggles."

"Isaac was my pastor for several years. He was an amazing teacher," Strang, founder of Relevant magazine, wrote on Facebook on Tuesday evening.

"Around this time last year, Isaac resigned his position at our church amid some very public scandals. He had a wife of 13 years and (three) young kids, and the time since then has been incredibly difficult for our church. His family lives around the corner from me, and I see them often," Strang continued.

"Isaac loved Jesus and was a talented and dedicated pastor for more than a decade. But he had some significant struggles. The unfathomable news today is devastating for many. Please pray for his family. Please pray for our church. Pray for his kids," Strang said.

Friends of the Hunter family also expressed condolences on Twitter on Tuesday night.

Joshua DuBois, former director of the White House Office of Faith-based and Neighborhood Partnerships, wrote:

Kay Warren, the wife of megachurch pastor Rick Warren, who lost their son Matthew to suicide in April, wrote:

CNN's Eric Marrapodi and John Couwels contributed to this report.

- CNN Religion Editor

Filed under: Barack Obama • Christianity • Church • Death • evangelicals

soundoff (335 Responses)
  1. Dyslexic doG

    Isaac was, as we are all, born an atheist

    his poor mind was abused from a young age with bronze age fairy stories and the threat of eternal fire and torment if he didn't believe.

    imagine all he could have been without the abuse. what a bright spark of humanity. a force for good instead of just one more cult tormented mind that couldn't take it any more

    December 12, 2013 at 4:22 pm |
    • devin

      " what a bright spark of humanity" Yes, exactly, just like Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Pol Pot, Mussolini, Marx, and the list goes on , these bastions of forces for good.

      December 12, 2013 at 5:30 pm |
      • Reality

        Bill Gates and Warren Buffett are atheists. Both are in the top ten with respect to charitable contributions.

        December 12, 2013 at 5:49 pm |
      • sam stone

        yeah, devin....they all had dark hair. must be a dark hair thing

        December 14, 2013 at 9:23 am |
  2. Rev. Rick

    Regardless of what conservative Christians would have us believe, saving your soul does not equate to saving your sanity. In fact, I believe Christianity itself can generate sufficient guilt to generate a crisis of faith and a crisis of conscience. Sometimes, faith in Jesus (or in anything else) is not enough, and the guilt that arises from that can lead to self-annihilation.

    December 12, 2013 at 1:12 pm |
  3. Dyslexic doG

    very sad.

    December 12, 2013 at 12:39 pm |
    • Nada

      Not really

      December 12, 2013 at 1:25 pm |
      • ?

        Jerk.

        December 12, 2013 at 3:15 pm |
    • Dyslexic doG

      Isaac was, as we are all, born an atheist

      his poor mind was abused from a young age with bronze age fairy stories and the threat of eternal fire and torment if he didn't believe.

      imagine all he could have been without the abuse.

      December 12, 2013 at 4:17 pm |
      • No

        We are born agnostic.
        You were not born a hostile, Christian hating internet troll. You learned that.

        December 12, 2013 at 4:19 pm |
        • In Santa we trust

          They're two different things actually. But you implicitly agreed – you were not born a believer, you learned that from your family.

          December 12, 2013 at 4:29 pm |
  4. Vic

    That is really sad. God bless his soul.

    One of Satan's most lethal weapons is condemnation, in which he tells the sinner that he/she is a failure and has noway to God. It is very sad that a lot of believers fall prey to that deception.

    The Holy Spirit's conviction of sin brings the believer back to God by intercession and the washing of sins through faith in Jesus Christ that is found in the heart. There is no condemnation in Jesus Christ.

    The redemption of the born again is in the precious blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    How it works:

    1. The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin and self-righteousness:

    John 16:8
    "8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;"

    Romans 10:3
    "3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God."

    2. The Holy Spirit then searches the heart. When He finds Faith in Jesus Christ, He intercedes on his/her behalf and righteousness is imputed and sin is washed away.

    Romans 8:26,27
    "26 In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God."

    Acts 26:18
    "18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’"

    Ephesians 1:7
    "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace"

    Ephesians 1:13-14
    "13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory."

    Ephesians 2:8,9
    "8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."

    Titus 3:4-6
    "4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,"

    All Scripture Is From:

    New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation

    http://www.biblegateway.com/

    My beloved fellow Christians and all, DO NOT fall prey to the condemnation of Satan.

    December 11, 2013 at 9:47 pm |
    • Rodents for Romney

      Stuff your Babble quotes up your ass. If he had not been a fundie, maybe he would have gotten help from a REAL professional, and would still be alive.

      December 11, 2013 at 10:39 pm |
      • Alexa

        What is your goal with your comments? Why exactly are you interested in this article? I am so incredibly curious how you ended up here, on this page, because your views seem to be so overshadowed with hate. You show complete disregard for those who who knew the man, or his family. Are you against the religion, the act of suicide, or just decided to be insensitive to certain issues over the past few days? You wonder why we live in fallen world and why we as a society are in a constant state of war? People like you that have lost all love and regard for humanity. It is absolutely disgusting.

        December 12, 2013 at 12:51 pm |
    • Reality # 2

      John's Gospel is of questionable historic value.

      To wit:

      From Professor Bruce Chilton in his book, Rabbi Jesus,

      "Conventionally, scholarship has accorded priority to the first three gospels in historical work on Jesus, putting progressively less credence in works of late date. John's Gospel for example is routinely dismissed as a source......

      From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_John#Authorship

      "Since "the higher criticism" of the 19th century, some historians have largely rejected the gospel of John as a reliable source of information about the historical Jesus.[3][4] "[M]ost commentators regard the work as anonymous,"[5] and date it to 90-100."

      "The authorship has been disputed since at least the second century, with mainstream Christianity believing that the author is John the Apostle, son of Zebedee. Modern experts usually consider the author to be an unknown non-eyewitness, though many apologetic Christian scholars still hold to the conservative Johannine view that ascribes authorship to John the Apostle."

      And from Professor Gerd Ludemann, in his book, Jesus After 2000 Years, p. 416,

      "Anyone looking for the historical Jesus will not find him in the Gospel of John. "
      See also http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/john.html

      December 12, 2013 at 12:11 am |
  5. Cen

    Oh! Oh! How about some more Rush-approved talking points that have been thoroughly disproved! Better yet, run a candidate that isn't this side of bat shit crazy. Sorry. Your wet dream a Bush II killer can't run again.

    You should be committed, you freaking PeaTardy lunatic.

    December 11, 2013 at 9:27 pm |
    • Cen

      That was for lol??, in case anyone was confused.

      December 11, 2013 at 9:29 pm |
  6. PC

    My heart goes out to the Hunter family, and the friends who knew and loved Isaac, not only for their loss but because many of them will continue to hold onto the very things that failed Isaac, and so many others. The Bible talks about judging something by its fruit, and yet we fail to judge our beliefs by their fruit, or whether that fruit is actually manifest. Instead, we excuse "faith" as a mechanism for fearfully failing to deal with reality. The "fruit" shown by many real lives is that the God they believe in is not really there to help them - saying otherwise usually results in inhumane victim blaming, suggesting they weren't faithful enough or true enough to the Word. If the "works of God" ever do manifest, they are either arbitrary or directly corollary to the ability of a person to arbitrarily delude their interpretations of life experience to fit whatever they want to convince themselves of. If Isaac could no longer delude himself into reinterpreting his life experience to see the hand of an absent god, the blame goes to a system of belief that failed him. There is a fallacy of human thought, applicable to so much of what we do, called the Sunk Cost Fallacy. I'll allow you to research it further on your own, but the best illustration I've heard is walking to a store that's two miles away, realizing after a mile that you forgot your wallet, and continuing on instead of turning around due to the fact that you've already invested a mile into the journey and it would be "wasted" if you didn't reach the store. Failing to reconsider a faith in a God or religion that objectively and empirically fails to exist or meet your needs is a refusal to ever go back for your wallet, but keep on walking to further and further stores as if at some point you'll reach one where you suddenly have the resources to make a purchase. The reality is that many people in church leadership lose their faith, but due to Sunk Cost Fallacy are so invested they can't honestly and openly divest themselves of the lie their entire life has become. Instead, they are stuck feeding their flock with the lies that have proven false in their own lives. Daniel Dennett has a new book examining this issue, called Caught in the Pulpit, if anyone is interested. But to all believers: testing something by the "fruit" it bears is really just an acceptance of data - almost like, science, really. You dispassionately see things for what they really are, and hold the fruit-bearer accountable for what is produced. When the fruit of one's faith is a self-justified evil (like bashing gays or withholding the rights of those you disagree with, or so many other things done in the name of scripture - all things done by believers in lieu of a God who doesn't exist to deal with the issue himself, thereby proving their faith to be nothing more than worship of their own ideas), the bearer of that fruit is evil, regardless of the "justification." When the fruit of one's faith is simply a failure of God to be real in a way that does not demand self-delusion or reality distortion, the fruit shows that faith is in nothing. Cut your losses and learn to deal with what really is, without depending on what will never be. It's not that hard in the end - I've done it. There is nothing to fear but growth, and surprisingly a happier more fulfilling life. I've seen the true fruit that has grown from divesting myself of false belief. It is much sweeter than I expected. I hope the Hunter family is able to grow from this, not in false faith, but in learning to live with the reality of life in a way that doesn't peddle fairy tales to those who will continue to find them tragically empty.

    December 11, 2013 at 6:02 pm |
    • Robert Brown

      You've done it? What have you done? What did you believe, that you believe no longer? Was there a time when you believed you were born again?

      December 11, 2013 at 6:25 pm |
      • Rodents for Romney

        He dumped his childish delusions, just like you should. Will you ? Probably not.

        December 11, 2013 at 10:41 pm |
      • PC

        Hi Robert. I appreciate your asking. Please see my response to Fred below as I'll be replying to both inquiries there.

        December 11, 2013 at 10:59 pm |
    • Akira

      One raises their child with all of the wisdom one can impart; in the end, that child is responsible for hizzer actions.

      The family has my profound sympathy.

      December 11, 2013 at 6:30 pm |
    • guest

      This is so satanic! Only Satan could have inspired such accusations. Such double talk!
      There is nobody that can truly say why Isaac Hunter took his own life, but all can make a reasonable guess.
      If Isaac was indeed suffering from the guilt of what he had done and this is the reason he took his life then it was because he did not have the faith in the God he claimed he believed in. When King David learned he was found out (by divine inspiration unto Nathan the prophet) he too could have taken his own life, but he didn’t. He instead trusted in the love and grace of God to forgive and wrote psalm 51:
      “1 Have mercy on me, O God, according to your unfailing love; according to your great compassion blot out my transgressions. 2 Wash away all my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin. 3 For I know my transgressions, and my sin is always before me. 4 Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you are proved right when you speak and justified when you judge. 5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. 6 Surely you desire truth in the inner parts; you teach me wisdom in the inmost place. 7 Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean; wash me, and I will be whiter than snow. 8 Let me hear joy and gladness; let the bones you have crushed rejoice. 9 Hide your face from my sins and blot out all my iniquity. 10 Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. 11 Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me. 12 Restore to me the joy of your salvation and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me. 13 Then I will teach transgressors your ways, and sinners will turn back to you. 14 Save me from bloodguilt, O God, the God who saves me, and my tongue will sing of your righteousness. 15 O Lord, open my lips, and my mouth will declare your praise. 16 You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. 17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise. 18 In your good pleasure make Zion prosper; build up the walls of Jerusalem. 19 Then there will be righteous sacrifices, whole burnt offerings to delight you; then bulls will be offered on your altar.”
      By converse example, Judas, the decuple of Christ, when he realized his guilt of betraying his Lord, went out and committed suicide.

      December 11, 2013 at 8:11 pm |
      • host

        Pssst: guest, there's no god, no sata, and the whole Jesus rising from the dead thing is a myth.

        Next time you visit, just flush the jesus stuff before you arrive. There's too much of it and it just jams the plumbing.

        December 11, 2013 at 8:16 pm |
      • host

        Pssst: guest, there's no god, no satan, and the whole Jesus rising from the dead thing is a myth.

        Next time you visit, just flush the jesus stuff before you arrive. There's too much of it and it just jams the plumbing.

        December 11, 2013 at 8:16 pm |
      • Rodents for Romney

        Satan ? Hahahahaha. How idiotic that modern humans still buy into thatt ancient garbage.
        Read Dr. Elaine Pagels (Princeton) "The Origins of Satan". You will never buy into that nonsense again. It's worth as nuch as Santa, and the Easter Bunny. Grow up. It's THAT crap precisely that drives these pastors sons to kill themselves.

        December 11, 2013 at 10:44 pm |
    • fred

      PC
      "I've seen the true fruit that has grown from divesting myself of false belief"

      I assume you are attempting to be Politically Correct by avoiding the nature of the fruit that has grown from your "true" belief. Would you like to share what that fruit looks like or you what new truth you have found?

      December 11, 2013 at 9:02 pm |
      • PC

        I appreciate your question, Fred. I'll answer both you and Robert at once.

        I grew up in a strong Christian family in the Foursquare church, under a pastor who was an amazing person, as were all the influences on my early life. My great-grandmother was a Reverend who hosted a Christian radio program and sent spiritual tracts all over the world. My father's family played music regularly in dozens of local churches all through his youth. I prayed with my parents at a young age for Jesus to enter my heart and save me. I studied the Bible, went to church, argued against evolution throughout jr. high and high school, was involved in Campus Crusade and InterVarsity throughout college, served and witnessed, answered my shame at falling short of godliness with prayer and renewals of commitment at alter calls, and responded to times of questioning with deeper study of the Bible and apologetics. I tried to apply all the critical reasoning and inductive Bible study skills I'd learned throughout my education to the task of validating my faith. And all the time, I understood that I was, to the letter, born again. I was, in fact, so committed to trusting God for whatever he really was that I began to pray that he would show me exactly what he wasn't, lest I be mistaken by any teaching or misinterpretation. I knew that whatever was true couldn't be threatened by rational challenges; only the unreal is afraid of full examination in the light of day. I undertook - in fact I still undertake - this task with the fullest honesty I can, exactly because if what we believe matters then it really does matter that we get our beliefs right, rather than just assuming they are right because we prefer them. It has so far been a process of decades of learning and testing and growing, and I think it would be foolish of me to think I won't spend the rest of my life at it, knowing I will never live long enough to have all the answers. But I have definitely learned what I can no longer find any support for against the evidence of real life, lived and witnessed every day.

        What is it I've done? I've let go the need for stories that don't explain things well enough, and grown comfortable with not requiring a story to replace the one I've given up - I am comfortable with not attributing certainty where it doesn't belong. Unanswerable questions are okay with me. And what has been the fruit of this? I feel better equipped to handle the very real unpredictability of living, without trusting in the expectations and hopes that never manifest and are thus explained away ("Everything happens for a reason", "God is unknowable but wiser than us", "God always answers prayer but sometimes it's no", etc). Also, I see and respect and therefore am able to love people who are different from me or uncomfortable to me with less judgment or offense than is the case under the cold hypocrisy of faith. I don't see people as creatures I need to fix or save or change to my way of seeing (although I'll share my views, obviously), but as people I might learn something from, especially the more different they are from me. Without a belief that there is a "higher" purpose, I find I hold a better value to my life now and the lives of those around me, rather than shrugging off the meaning of this life in lieu of a future more "important" afterlife. Without a belief in heaven, I find I'm more intent on appreciating the time I have now with those I love, during the short time I have to enjoy them, instead of trusting that time now can be wasted in petty arguments since we'll all be together someday "in a better place" - knowing once they're gone, they're gone, no matter what I may wish, and when they go, while I still mourn them, I know I didn't waste the time I had with them, but honored it and them during the only life we had together. Without a belief in a "better place" I more fully appreciate the wonderful things of this place, rather than constantly disparaging the world as fallen and evil. There is a lot more reason to thrive in this life than my old faith ever gave me incentive for. Without a prescribed "meaning" to life centered around a theology that falls apart if you think about it very much, I have found that life's purpose is in how I choose to spend it, and the meaning my life has is measured by the positive impact I have on those I interact with - if I die having meant something valuable to them, even if only for a moment and not outweighed by having done them wrong in any way, then that is the meaning and value my life had. Without any reason to fear death, I no longer do. In fact, I fear very little as I've learned there is little reason to. For however long I live, I embrace it as joyously and fully as I can, and therefore my life has been more full and joyous without faith. Without false certainty and the desire to comfort myself by proselytizing others to my way of thinking, I find myself less likely to steer someone wrong, for which I'd feel guilty. And I find it is easier and safer identifying what certainly is not true than proclaiming what I hope "certainly" is true. I find I am able to better and more compassionately accept the flawed humanity in myself and in others, and am therefore much more forgiving now. Without a prescribed means of labeling people as "wrong in God's eyes", I am less tempted to mistreat them for a self-justified "greater good." (If you look up "Good" and "Evil" in a concordance, the definitions right from Eden on are the clearest most obvious ones: Good is what makes a person happy; Evil is whatever harms or dismays people. There is no complicating the issue with justifiable "greater goods". If what you do or God does causes pain or suffering or loss of freedom, it doesn't matter your reasons, you are still evil. You can't excuse yourself or God by redefining the words - the Bible doesn't give room for that.) To be honest, studying the Bible as unprejudiced as I can has led me to see it in the light that offers more convincing support (others may disagree), and that is as a work of men seeking god, not as the work of a god seeking man. I think I understand better why I wanted to believe the things I was taught, and what is the attraction to those beliefs, and what motivates people to hold desperately to them. But in the end, I think basing one's entire interpretation of reality on something that doesn't prove reliably and demonstrably evident without a digging-in-one's-heels effort is in the long run a destructive strategy for dealing with life. The fruit I've found, in summary, is freedom of the oppression and repression that comes from dishonestly trying to preserve a forced "certainty" in something against the evidence of every day life and the most intellectually honest application of critical reasoning. In short, I am more alive now than I ever was, more joyful, more humble, more loving, more honest, more of all the things I was supposed to be as a Christian, because I have found more valid reasons to be so, and I found them on my own by pursuing them, rather than by taking on the ideas of others without testing those ideas. Life has been more rewarding, less disappointing, less fearful, less frustrating, and has involved much less of a judging, offense-taking spirit towards others.

        I hope that helps answer your questions. Any given reader of this doesn't need to accept it as valid for them, but I can say with full honesty that this is my testimony, and I hope that anyone who finds that their faith does not provide them all that it advertises is able to find what they need in freedom from that faith, or any other that doesn't stand up to scrutiny without wishful thinking and self-deception. Agree or disagree with what I've said, I honestly and humbly wish everyone who reads this the best in wherever they seek what they need. Just, please, don't justify doing evil to anyone as somehow being "good." Thanks for listening.

        December 12, 2013 at 12:19 am |
        • fred

          Thanks,
          I still have not figured out how one who rejects the notion of God or an eternal record keeper or simply an eternal account or recollection of some kind finds purpose or meaning in this existence. If the earth was to be swallowed by the sun all history would be erased without a trace of our existence. There would be no evidence of our existence and our exchange of posts never happened. But, it did happen which means the possibility of non existence is a contradiction and reality cannot contradict itself. In short past, present and future are arbitrary constructs limited to our space and time.

          My personal experiences in the presence of God is what keeps my faith strong. There are many things I do not understand and simply put them in a box marked unknown for now. To be "in Christ" and know the only thing acceptable before God is that which is "in Christ" is very difficult. The only part of my existence that will be carried forward is very different from my accumulated history. Like a butterfly breaking out of its no longer needed casing. Created in the image of God is an eternal process not anything finite. A caterpillar is not riddled with guilt or stress of becoming a butterfly because it is not necessary for its development. We have awareness of a being a part of a process that extends beyond self. That is the voice of one calling you home.

          December 12, 2013 at 1:35 am |
        • guest

          God has not promised us a life of ease, in fact just the opposite. If we are living a life of ease and comfort it is a good sign that Satan is not concerned about us or our salvation—indeed that is just where he wants us to be; because we most likely are not concerned about our salvation either. Christ said: “I bring not peace, but a sword.”
          “God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”2 Peter 3:9. Notice: the word, “all” that means you and me and everyone else. “For God so loved the world that whosoever believes on Him shall not perish.” John 3:16. Notice: God loved the whole world. “The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life.” Romans 6;23. Unfortunately that means you and me.
          (Babies may have died, even at the hand of God, that does not mean they are lost for eternity, it may have been for their own good.)

          December 12, 2013 at 3:59 am |
        • Wow

          PC, that was beautiful. the best I have ever read. you should write a book about your life and feelings.
          ps
          fred still doesnt get it

          December 12, 2013 at 7:29 am |
        • fred

          WOW
          I really don't get it. It is not unreasonable to assume there is God based on the Bible and my personal experience. Most reasonable people will finally accept the personal experience as real and verifiable even though they deny the object of my experience. Those on this site that deny the experience have a bias against God which is greater than my faith in God.

          As to the Bible I have not found anything that is not true as expressed by Jesus. I am still waiting for someone to point out one thing that Jesus said (or writers quote of His words) that has been proven not to be true. Philosophy and religion explain what science cannot. There being nothing found false it is not unreasonable to accept the words of the single most powerful figure known to mankind.

          December 12, 2013 at 11:15 am |
        • devin

          I understand and can appreciate the mental gymnastics you have gone through to reach your conclusions. In addition, I respect the disclaimer at the end of " Any given reader of this does not have to except it as valid for them." My only rebuttal, and I use that term lightly, is the reality that many of us as Christians have been and are enjoying the so called new found freedoms which you are experiencing, only we are doing so within the framework of our faith. Try as I may, I cannot dismiss the reality of sin in this world. This narrative of sin and redemption, which I'm sure you are as familiar with as I am, is either completely true or completely myth. I accept the former. But here's the thing, my acceptance of that does not necessitate that I "mistreat for a self justified, greater good", it doesn't prohibit me from appreciating the beauty of this world even though I know there is a better one in the future, it doesn't "oppress or repress" me because I'm not trying to preserve a forced certainty, and my "proselytizing " is done not to convince others of some ideology I've concocted, but rather because it's truth. I dare say, many of us as Christians have found life to be " rewarding, less disappointing, less fearful, less frustrating, and has involved much less of judging, offense taking spirit towards others. because of Jesus Christ and our call to be like Him. Icing on the cake: the hope of eternal life.

          December 12, 2013 at 3:21 pm |
        • anneislike

          PC,

          It sounds like you genuinely have good intentions at heart, but I just wanted to let you know (from the community and people who knew this man) that going around and posting on every single news article your testimony is pretty insensitive. You are taking news of someone's tragic death and (it seems like, from my point of view) making it about you and your ideology. This is just as bad as any fundamentalist Christian. Since you have told us all your past, consider that although you have shed your beliefs, you are still acting with the mentality of a fundamentalist that needs to preach. Consider, as a rational person, that you have created a false dichotomy out of your own experience of Christianity that is very different from other experiences. I was not raised as a Christian, I was raised with all the beliefs you now profess to be helpful. But you know what? People experience despair and hopelessness no matter what. It is fundamentalists that make it all about religion, whether they are Christian or evangelical atheists that need to tell everyone "the good news." News: not all Christians cling so tightly to the belief in heaven that they don't live in the moment. Not all Christians even care about heaven either way. Not all Christians are literalists. Not everyone needs to throw out the baby with the bathwater – obviously selflessness and sacrifice and love are good philosophical concepts and some people connect with philosophy better through narratives. I'm glad you've found good things and want to share it but tying it all to rejection of religion is as off-putting as a baptist knocking at my door. It sounds like the christianity you participated in was harmful but there's good and bad in every belief system or worldview and you seem in danger of overgeneralizing.

          December 12, 2013 at 3:46 pm |
        • vinster76

          PC: I have read your post a couple times, thought it was really well written and honest. One nagging thought kept coming to my mind though, you may appreciate it more than some of the other posters who have been ugly on here. This is my nagging thought: what do you do with the Life of Jesus? What do you do with the Author of the Story? How do you dismiss His life and Resurrection? Go ahead and chuck out all the books of the Bible you don't like, chuck out all the questions you don't have answers to, chuck out the story of Jonah, Job, The Red Sea story, et al, chuck them all out, and you are still are left with the question of Who Is this Jesus? You can chuck out the old testament prophecies in Isaiah, Micah, etc, foretelling His birth, the location etc, but what do you do with the Life of Jesus, the example of His disciples, the example of their lives after His Ascencion, the testimony of their lives and the life of Paul, the great Persecutor? I have many times in my life felt the same doubts, the same frustrations, the same longing for unanswerable questions as you...Unlike you, I was not brought up in a church, in fact, just the opposite, but did come to faith in Jesus....No matter my questions, no matter my doubts, no matter my grievances at the great mystery of life itself, I cannot get past the Life of Jesus.........In the midst of all my questions, He stands there in middle of the road, the Great Obstruction to my prideful need to know and have all the answers....

          December 12, 2013 at 5:22 pm |
    • Saraswati

      Do you have some specific information to indicate the suicide was related to Hunter's religious beliefs?

      December 12, 2013 at 7:35 am |
  7. Love&All

    Why is the mood so somber on here?
    God just decided to "hug" one of his little "angels" a little tighter today. Isaac's soul is flying thru the cosmos, keeping a watchful eye on his abandoned family growing up in abject poverty, and playing the drums in a band with some of the other angels. You can hear Isaac practicing the drums when you hear "thunder" during a t-storm.

    It takes a very intelligent, very honest, very humble, very loving man to kill himself because he cannot save a fledging church or to avoid social embarrassment from a common indiscretion.

    God bless the mentally retarde--oh excuse me. Bless the common Christians.

    December 11, 2013 at 3:01 pm |
    • Dum de dum dum

      🙄

      December 11, 2013 at 3:12 pm |
    • Joshua

      insightful

      December 11, 2013 at 3:57 pm |
    • Rodents for Romney

      What are you, like 3 ?

      December 11, 2013 at 10:45 pm |
  8. Sol Invictus

    "When a Christian reaches for their book to reference a quote... you know they are about to lie their ass off..." ~LET

    December 11, 2013 at 2:30 pm |
    • niknak

      Or they are going to ask for money.

      December 11, 2013 at 2:37 pm |
    • D

      I guess that would make every pastor or rabbi or teacher of Truth a liar. A liar is a person who has not been changed by the Word of Truth by the Spirit of God. Truth stands on it's own. There is no case with it when there is a true Testimony given.

      December 11, 2013 at 2:44 pm |
      • Lucifer's Evil Twin

        What kind of silly crap are you spouting? Lying is telling or promoting a falsehood (that which is not true)... example: the Bible

        December 11, 2013 at 3:35 pm |
      • Rodents for Romney

        Every word in the Babble is political spin. Nothing more.

        December 11, 2013 at 10:47 pm |
  9. Dyslexic doG

    seems to be a pattern of the sons of mega church pastors committing suicide ...

    December 11, 2013 at 2:07 pm |
    • Lucifer's Evil Twin

      There does seem to be a sad ironic trend...

      December 11, 2013 at 2:23 pm |
    • ME II

      Does two make a trend, or are there more?

      December 11, 2013 at 2:51 pm |
      • Lucifer's Evil Twin

        Trends are analyzed according to several event markers over a set period of time... 2 events within a relatively short span could be considered an 'emerging pattern' but not really a trend... until another kid of a mega-church commits suicide within say, the next 12 months... then we can apply some pattern analysis and assess that there is an emerging trend...

        December 11, 2013 at 3:45 pm |
      • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

        No, clearly not. Two data points do not make a trend.

        In each of the two cases the causes appear to be quite different, but I certainly don't know all the relevant facts.

        What it is, is sad.

        December 11, 2013 at 6:50 pm |
  10. Topher

    How terribly sad ...

    December 11, 2013 at 1:27 pm |
    • Akira

      I agree.
      My sympathy to his family. This must be a heart-wretching time.

      December 11, 2013 at 2:01 pm |
    • Charm Quark

      Topher
      The guilt trip that people like you and the deceased have to put up with must be a heavy burden. Thinking that you are a fallen desp!cable sinner every day of your life, how can you live with yourself? Will his soul find the heaven he peddled to his flock? Answer please.

      December 11, 2013 at 2:37 pm |
    • Rodents for Romney

      Agree. So sad he was raised in the ignorant delusions of American Fundamentalism.

      December 11, 2013 at 10:48 pm |
  11. Nada

    Perhaps he was fed up trying to log onto affordable care act website...lost it.

    December 11, 2013 at 1:12 pm |
    • Some Antics

      Yeah, if that is true then I guess we should blame Florida for not setting up their own website for it like CA and NY did which are working really well.

      December 11, 2013 at 1:32 pm |
    • Sol Invictus

      @Nada – classy and tactful

      December 11, 2013 at 2:26 pm |
  12. Live4Him

    When I see articles like this (i.e. mega-church leaders with a family suicide), I really question that pastor's dedication to God and his understanding of the teachings of the Bible. The Bible very clearly details the requirements of being an overseer of a church – faithful to wife and well-behaved children. While this man (Isaac Hunter) is an adult, his suicide indicates a troubled upbringing. It appears that his father was more interested in growing 'his' church than in raising that which had been entrusted to his care – his family. If the father/pastor couldn't do a better job than this on his most important responsibility, then how can his church followers trust his leadership. This pastor (Joel Hunter) should step down from his leadership position and refocus his life on rebuilding his family to the standards that God demands for overseers.

    1 Timothy 3:1-5
    Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?

    1 Timothy 3:12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well.

    December 11, 2013 at 12:40 pm |
    • C

      Live4Him,

      Your opinion is noted.

      December 11, 2013 at 12:48 pm |
    • hoity toity

      In tragedies we,

      1) Blame somebody

      2) Look for answers

      While (1) above is counter productive, (2) might help others who are in similar situations.

      The question then is why do married people have affairs?

      December 11, 2013 at 12:54 pm |
      • Rob

        Why do married people have affairs? Because, some people are unhappy in their marriage, they are seeking some thrill outside their marriage or it could be they engage in risqué behavior as a way of seeking attention. Marriage is a life long commitment and not all marriages are made to last a lifetime, looking at the divorce rates. People's heart are hardened, people no more take the wow of poverty when they take to godly pursuits.
        The Catholic priestly wow of celibacy and total commitment is the best model if all priests are fully devoted and committed to their calling.

        December 11, 2013 at 1:03 pm |
        • Live4Him

          @Rob : The Catholic priestly wow of celibacy and total commitment is the best model if all priests are fully devoted and committed to their calling

          How do you reconcile this position with the Biblical position given in 1 Timothy 3 (cited above)?

          December 11, 2013 at 1:11 pm |
        • Lucifer's Evil Twin

          There is no wow in celibacy...

          December 11, 2013 at 1:13 pm |
        • Rob

          Read 1 Corinthians 7:7–8.

          December 11, 2013 at 1:16 pm |
        • Live4Him

          @Rob : Read 1 Corinthians 7:7–8.

          Why do you compare a generic standard for Christians with a specific standard for overseers?

          December 11, 2013 at 1:22 pm |
        • C

          Rob,
          " 1 Corinthians 7:7–8."

          What makes you think that Paul of Tarsus knew anything special?

          December 11, 2013 at 1:23 pm |
        • Rob

          How did you conclude that 1 Corinthians 7:7-8 is not referring to Pastors/Priests? Paul gives a great example of himself in this verse and Paul was one of the greatest apostles.

          December 11, 2013 at 1:28 pm |
        • Some Antics

          "There is no wow in celibacy..."

          But there is plenty of celibacy for those who play WoW...

          Zing!!

          December 11, 2013 at 1:34 pm |
        • Live4Him

          @Rob : How did you conclude that 1 Corinthians 7:7-8 is not referring to Pastors/Priests?

          Paul penned both Corinthians and Timothy. In the latter, the qualification of overseers (i.e. today's Pastors/Priests) is specifically addressed. One of the qualifications is married with children. In the former, there is no qualification given and it specifically encourages the unmarried to remain unmarried (when possible). Since these attributes of these two passages contradict each other, it becomes clear that they are addressed to two different segments of Christians – overseers and all others.

          @Rob : Paul gives a great example of himself in this verse and Paul was one of the greatest apostles.

          I would agree with statement. However, while Paul never married, he also was never an overseer. Rather, he was an evangelist. There is no additional Biblical qualifications for an evangelist over regular Christians, but there are for overseers (and deacons).

          December 11, 2013 at 1:45 pm |
        • Live4Him

          Correction: I would agree with this statement.

          December 11, 2013 at 1:46 pm |
        • Rob

          From reading the scriptures it appears that "marriage" is not a requirement nor is "celibacy". Nowhere does it state that all Pastors *must* be married.The scriptures clearly encourages marriage for those who cannot stay celibate and exhorts those who choose to remain celibate. As pointed out earlier of the two models, the "celibate" model works better because a person is not bothered with the cares of the world and his/her attention is for the things of the Lord and His work. The scriptures leave that choice to the individual.

          December 11, 2013 at 1:56 pm |
        • Live4Him

          @Rob : From reading the scriptures it appears that "marriage" is not a requirement

          One cannot have a wife and be unmarried.

          1 Timothy 3:1 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife

          December 11, 2013 at 2:02 pm |
        • Rob

          I am pretty certain that your understanding that "marriage" is a requirement for a pastor is incorrect. You may want to look at some mega churches and you will be surprised at what you find and none of these pastors are violating the scriptures by choosing to remain "celibate".

          December 11, 2013 at 2:05 pm |
        • Jep

          Nor does Rob say that. Why are you commenting on something Rob didn't even SAY?

          December 11, 2013 at 2:06 pm |
        • Live4Him

          @Rob : I am pretty certain that your understanding that "marriage" is a requirement for a pastor is incorrect.

          I'm guess I'm pretty stupid, but I've got to ask this obvious question – How does an overseer have a wife without being in a marriage?

          @Rob : none of these pastors are violating the scriptures by choosing to remain "celibate".

          Again, how does one have a wife and 'remain "celibate"' without violating scripture? Even the 1 Cor passage states that one must remain married if one is already married. And other passages explictly state that 'denying one's spouse' is offlimits (except for a limited amount of time).

          December 11, 2013 at 2:13 pm |
        • Philip Eugene Douglas

          "I am pretty certain that your understanding that “marriage” is a requirement for a pastor is incorrect."

          You keep deliberately skipping this. Why, Live?

          December 11, 2013 at 2:56 pm |
        • ME II

          @Live4Him,
          In the tradition of "reading" the Bible, your quote doesn't specify having a wife, just being faithful to one. If one is unmarried, then one cannot be unfaithful to a wife.

          December 11, 2013 at 2:57 pm |
        • Joey

          This is my favorite thing about the bible. It is so contradictory that it can be used to support both sides of an argument.

          December 11, 2013 at 3:00 pm |
        • Live4Him

          @ME II : If one is unmarried, then one cannot be unfaithful to a wife.

          And thus would be unable to satisfy this criterion – so he would be disqualified to be an overseer.

          December 11, 2013 at 3:08 pm |
        • ME II

          @Live4Him
          "And thus would be unable to satisfy this criterion – so he would be disqualified to be an overseer."

          How so? If one must always keep one's word, but never promises anything, then one is in fact keeping one's word. Likewise, if one does not have pre-marital se.x, but has not married then one is remaining faithful to one's wife, even if they aren't married yet.

          December 11, 2013 at 3:19 pm |
        • ME II

          @Live4Him,
          p.s.
          An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord’s affairs—how he can please the Lord. 33 But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—how he can please his wife— 34 and his interests are divided. (1 Cor 7)

          December 11, 2013 at 3:25 pm |
        • ME II

          Oops, sorry. You already covered Cor.

          December 11, 2013 at 3:26 pm |
        • G to the T

          Pretty sure the first Pope was married...

          December 11, 2013 at 3:27 pm |
        • Live4Him

          @ME II : How so? If one must always keep one's word, but never promises anything

          I suspect you're being deliberately obtuse. It's not about keeping one's word, but demonstrating one's ability to lead. If a man cannot lead his children appropriately, how can he claim to shepherd an entire church? Even that which outsiders cannot see become visiable in one's own home. If a man claims to 'love unconditionally', but cannot extend that unconditional love to his family, then he is acting hypocritically (do as I say, not as I do).

          1 Timothy 3:5 If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?

          December 11, 2013 at 3:37 pm |
        • Ed

          Personally, I think the Overseer concept in Anton Troia's tale about that is far more interesting than the one in the Christian fictions of the bible. Overseer Terrox was pretty wicked too, but then again, so are some of the Christian overseers...

          December 11, 2013 at 3:45 pm |
        • Joey

          If a man cannot lead his children appropriately, how can he claim to shepherd an entire church?

          I don't know, but it seemed to work for Jesus.

          December 11, 2013 at 3:47 pm |
        • ME II

          @Live4Him,
          "It's not about keeping one's word, but demonstrating one's ability to lead."

          Leadership, or the demonstration of it, doesn't require a wife and kids.

          "If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?"

          This is obviously a disqualifying criteria, not necessarily an entrance criteria, i.e. if he has a family and cannot manage them, then he shouldn't be managing a church, or if he can't manage a farm then how can he manage a church, or "'Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'"

          December 11, 2013 at 4:35 pm |
    • Some Antics

      "When I see articles like this (i.e. mega-church leaders with a family suicide), I really question that pastor's dedication to God and his understanding of the teachings of the Bible."

      The simplest answer is that there is no God, not that the pastor just didn't have a good relationship with one.

      December 11, 2013 at 1:31 pm |
    • Member of the Northland congregration

      Sounds like you know this family very well or you are making assumptions and ypu know what they say about assuming.....

      December 11, 2013 at 1:44 pm |
      • Live4Him

        @Member of the Northland congregration : Sounds like you know this family very well or you are making assumptions and ypu know what they say about assuming.....

        Well enough. I could also go by the handle 'EX-Member of the Northland Community'. I left the church in the early 1990's because of concerns with the church's adherence to the Biblical standards. I now find myself justified in my concerns.

        December 11, 2013 at 1:58 pm |
    • Jasmine

      "While this man (Isaac Hunter) is an adult, his suicide indicates a troubled upbringing."

      Blame the parents instead of taking responsibility fir his own actions...armchair psychology from an unqualified BT. Just shut up. You have no clue as to why he did what he did.

      December 11, 2013 at 1:45 pm |
      • Live4Him

        @Jasmine : Blame the parents instead of taking responsibility fir his own actions.

        At least half of his life was under the tutelage of his parents and you don't think they bear any responsibility. Why not?

        @Jasmine : armchair psychology from an unqualified BT. Just shut up. You have no clue as to why he did what he did.

        It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand his motivations – his life was lacking unconditional love, but was conditional based upon his actions. This is contrary to scripture and he could only have learned it from Joel's example.

        December 11, 2013 at 1:54 pm |
        • niknak

          Phuck you and your moral religious bull, you little piece of chicken fried chicken sheet.
          A 36 year old kills himself and you bring up your "idea" of why based on your stone age fairy book.
          You are a complete loser.
          And phuck your god too, punk.

          December 11, 2013 at 2:21 pm |
        • Jasmine

          Nor does it take a rocket scientist to figure out you have an axe to grind.

          Your lack of empathy and understanding for this family is astounding. You should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself.

          December 11, 2013 at 2:31 pm |
        • Philip Eugene Douglas

          I agree with you Jasmine. Her lack of empathy for this man and what his family must be going through is not Biblically-based.

          December 11, 2013 at 2:42 pm |
        • ?

          Lie4Him, what a judgemental piece of sh!t you are and you call yourself a Christian!

          December 11, 2013 at 2:47 pm |
        • Live4Him

          @Jasmine : Nor does it take a rocket scientist to figure out you have an axe to grind.

          Actually, no I don't. There are many who desire to marginalize a valid point by declaring one of the following counter-arguments: 1) You don't know them so you don't know what you're talking about or 2) You've got an axe to grind. The reality is that there is only ONE standard for a Christian to base their posit upon: The Bible. I've used it to make my point, but you did not.

          @Jasmine : Your lack of empathy and understanding for this family is astounding.

          Again, you seem to want to judge me. My heart goes out to Joel, Becky and Isaac's family. But, my feelings don't cloud my capability to understand what God is trying to teach them. Consider Job in the Bible. He underwent many hardships – but in the end he lost his pride, arrogance and his belief in the 'health and wealth' philosophy. Likewise, Joel needs to learn the lesson that God wants him to learn from this tragedy. He has failed in duties to his primary responsibility – his family.

          December 11, 2013 at 2:50 pm |
        • G to the T

          "The reality is that there is only ONE standard for a Christian to base their posit upon: The Bible." How can there be ONE standard when there's more than one bible? How can there be one standard when there are SOOOOO MANY different interpretations/translations of these books?

          December 11, 2013 at 3:30 pm |
        • Jasmine

          I am going by your posts. Not once have you expressed any sort of empathy for this family, except in this last post, and only because you were called out on it.

          December 11, 2013 at 3:32 pm |
        • Live4Him

          @Jasmine : I am going by your posts.

          And how have you demonstrated your 'brotherly/sisterly' love for me? Does that mean that you're LESS of a Christian? No. Posts are limited contact – you don't see the emotions that a person feels, nor their body language or anything similar. Instead, you project what is inside you to them – based upon what you read.

          @Jasmine : only because you were called out on it.

          Remember...

          Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

          December 11, 2013 at 3:42 pm |
        • Live4Him

          @G to the T : How can there be ONE standard when there's more than one bible?

          There are many translations of the one Bible.

          December 11, 2013 at 3:45 pm |
        • Jasmine

          I would say the same way as you demonstrated it to this family.

          If it is good enough for them, surely it is good enough for you.

          December 11, 2013 at 3:47 pm |
        • ?

          Jasmine, save your breath. You are spot on, but this person will never realize just how devoid of emotion she is.

          December 11, 2013 at 3:57 pm |
        • C

          Live4Him is the perfect disciple of the cold-hearted, misanthropic, victim of Stoicism, old Paul of Tarsus.

          (and, wonder of wonders, L4H will probably see this as a compliment!)

          December 11, 2013 at 4:04 pm |
    • Rodents for Romney

      Right. The "trouble" with his upbringing was religion.

      December 11, 2013 at 10:49 pm |
  13. D

    Apparantly "guns" and spirituality don't mix. Wake up christians...while you are holding your guns and saying "lord, lord". You are FAR from being saved. Good ridance to anyone that has a gun and who believes in them. Where is your protection from?...Guns of course. Pray for christians to repent for their arrogance, luke warm dead souls.

    December 11, 2013 at 11:52 am |
    • lol??

      Public Servant PLANT??

      December 11, 2013 at 12:10 pm |
      • Philip Eugene Douglas, CS, CO

        Funny how the Constitution means so much to you when guns are involved, but nothing to you when equal rights are involved.

        D is talking about Christians JUST LIKE YOU!!

        December 11, 2013 at 12:29 pm |
    • Lucifer's Evil Twin

      I'm an atheist and I like and own guns... so weird

      December 11, 2013 at 12:11 pm |
      • D

        Since you are a whatever...let your own violence find you out and it will. The truth is, Christians believe in a God for protection. So why do they have a gun and advise a government to be at war all the time? What deceivers and liars they are. At least you are not lying about it.

        December 11, 2013 at 12:25 pm |
        • igaftr

          Protection from what? From the threat the very same god created?

          December 11, 2013 at 12:43 pm |
        • Lucifer's Evil Twin

          I was a soldier for 24 years... I am as violent as the situation calls for...

          December 11, 2013 at 1:11 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @D : Where is your protection from?...Guns of course.

      How do you reconcile this position with Jesus' command to arm yourself?

      Luke 22:36 He said to them, “But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.

      December 11, 2013 at 12:45 pm |
      • D

        All Christians loll around in the New Testament without understanding and knowledge by the Spirit of Holiness of the Torah (Old Testament) and the Prophets. They also take (like a cherry picker) verses out of context to fit their own interest and call it a day. Back up to Luke 22:35 and study to verse 51. And Exodus 20...the commandments are listed vs. 13 – you shall not kill. It's clear to me... but to the sheep who do not study for truth and prefer to go listen to a false prophet ...their dimise will be all too late. Most mega churches are drunk with them whilst they pass around the chicken buckets for your last bit of gas money without conscience. If you have a problem then they lable you as faithless. I am sick of them and their sleeping sheep who prefer to make them rich off of their own backs thinking that they will go to heaven....LIES... And God will hold them all to account. Behind every liar and deceiver is a murderer.

        December 11, 2013 at 1:14 pm |
        • igaftr

          Isn't there a street corner you should be standing on?

          December 11, 2013 at 1:21 pm |
        • Live4Him

          @D : All Christians loll around in the New Testament without understanding

          With an ad hominem like this, you just lost some credibility. You've ASSUMED that I don't know the Bible, read/understand Greek, etc.

          @D : Back up to Luke 22:35 and study to verse 51.

          And your point is????

          @D : Exodus 20...the commandments are listed vs. 13 – you shall not kill.

          This verse, when properly translated, would equate to murder. And there is a difference between murder and owning a weapon.

          @D : I am sick of [mega churches]

          Careful. You should know what Jesus said about hating others.

          December 11, 2013 at 1:33 pm |
        • Lucifer's Evil Twin

          I like it when you guys set me up for one of my favorite LET-isms....

          The highest form of ignorance... is one dumbass Christian telling another dumbass Christian that they are not really Christian... because (insert whatever dumbass thing they believe differentiates them from each other)…

          December 11, 2013 at 1:55 pm |
        • Jep

          You equate being sick of something with hating something, L4H?

          December 11, 2013 at 1:59 pm |
        • Live4Him

          @Jep : You equate being sick of something with hating something, L4H?

          Not necessarily, but it is certainly one of the first steps in giving in to hate. This is why I urged care in his/her wording.

          December 11, 2013 at 2:06 pm |
        • D

          @ L4H
          Rev 3:14-22
          14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God, says this:
          15 "I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot.
          16 "So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
          17 "Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,
          18 I advise you to buy from me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and {that} the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
          19 "Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent.
          20 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
          21 "He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
          22 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."'
          (NAU)

          December 11, 2013 at 2:22 pm |
        • Live4Him

          @D : Rev 3:14-22

          Again, what's your point? Anyone can quote scripture, but it is only the starting point when one is building his/her case. Unless your point is to judge me? To obviate, I'll quote Romans 4.

          Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.

          December 11, 2013 at 2:31 pm |
        • Jep

          You should take the same care in your wording, as being sick/fed up with a situation doesn't equal hate in any way, shape, or form.

          December 11, 2013 at 4:04 pm |
      • Rodents for Romney

        Great. Now all ya gotta do is prove he said it, and that he even existed. Take your time.

        December 11, 2013 at 10:50 pm |
  14. Peacemaker

    Very sad.

    December 11, 2013 at 11:28 am |
  15. Lucifer's Evil Twin

    Shut up

    December 11, 2013 at 11:07 am |
  16. JJ

    Why does "spiritual adviser" get more respect than "astrologist"? Aren't they pretty much the same thing?

    December 11, 2013 at 9:59 am |
    • Lucifer's Evil Twin

      Why does an intangible nonexistent thing called 'spirit' require advice from a mega-church con-artist?

      December 11, 2013 at 10:38 am |
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About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.