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December 14th, 2013
08:30 PM ET
Pope: Marxist ideology is 'wrong'By Daniel Burke, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor (CNN)– Pope Francis responded to critics who call his stance on capitalism Marxist, saying in a new interview that the political and economic philosophy is flat "wrong." "Marxist ideology is wrong," the Pope told the Italian newspaper La Stampa in an interview published on Saturday. "But I have met many Marxists in my life who are good people, so I don’t feel offended.” Earlier this month, the conservative radio host Rush Limbaugh blasted the pontiff, calling his latest major writing, an apostolic exhortation called Evangelii Gaudium, "pure Marxism." "It's sad because this Pope makes it very clear he doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to capitalism and socialism and so forth," Limbaugh said. READ MORE: Rush Limbaugh: Pope is preaching 'pure Marxism' Pope Francis told La Stampa that, “there is nothing in the Exhortation that cannot be found in the social Doctrine of the Church.” The 50,000-word statement calls for church reform and castigates elements of modern capitalism. "I wasn’t speaking from a technical point of view, what I was trying to do was to give a picture of what is going on," the Pope said of Evangelii Gaudium. Francis - the first pope ever to hail from Latin America, where he worked on behalf of the poor in his native Argentina - warned in "Evangelii" that the "idolatry of money" would lead to a "new tyranny." The Pope also blasted "trickle-down economics," saying the theory "expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power." "The only specific quote I used was the one regarding the 'trickle-down theories,' which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and social inclusiveness in the world," the Pope said in the new interview on Saturday. "The promise was that when the glass was full, it would overflow, benefitting the poor. But what happens instead, is that when the glass is full, it magically gets bigger nothing ever comes out for the poor. This was the only reference to a specific theory. I was not, I repeat, speaking from a technical point of view but according to the Church’s social doctrine. This does not mean being a Marxist.” The Pope's critique of capitalism thrilled many liberal Catholics, who have long called on church leaders to spend more time and energy on protecting the poor from economic inequalities. soundoff (1,371 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 Next »
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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Alright then you naysers, using the Logic of the Scientific Method and the Gravitas of Empirical Evidence, pray, do tell, what is the origin of matter? Has it always existed without a beginning? Or, did it magically appear out of the ether? Ponder it for a while as you celebrate the Christmas Holidays.
yeah, and the Black Plague was a punishment from god.
CPT.
The same place anti-matter came from, energy, study a little physics, and matter and anti-matter will become energy again in the cycle of universes and dimensions.
Are you suggesting that we answer every mystery with "we don't know, so let's use facts and reasoning to learn as we go," or that we should just placate our curiosity with "big invisible sky wizard did it with magic spellzzzz!!"
So, your point is that because no one was there to witness the big bang, then your skyman must have created matter? ROFL. Nice try, well actually not a very good try at all.
Just because science does not currently have the answer, does not mean that god did it. The only evidence of god is the bible, and it is a poorly writen text.
The order of the universe - particularly in the complexity of life and microsystems in living things - suggests there is a greater being that put things into motion and created it.
All of the continual "chance" over and over on so many levels (on EVERY level) in science is ridiculous of itself. However in math, there is not "chance". Why scoff at a Supreme Being when the natural sciences continually have theories and have such leeway in arbitrarily filling in gaps?
I hate Jesus, Buddah, Allah, Thor and other imaginary figments of overseers of this world. It reminds me of the so called middle class gluttons who want only for themselves by dividing up for themselves not for the poor. No, we cannot have controled population or government manufacturing to hire the disabled cause that is evil 'Socialism'. Well, I guess then I am a socialist so what? Maybe just maybe they had it right in the thirties?
/tips fedora
Peter,
I am a socialist. You are NOT! You have flipped out. You might be an anarchist, but you are probably just an escaped inmate. Turn yourself in and get help. Do it NOW!!
JC's dad said
Is. 10:1-3. "Woe to those who enact evil statutes, and to those who continually record unjust decisions, so as to deprive the needy of justice, and rob the poor of My people of their rights... Now what will you do in the day of punishment, and in the devastation which will come from afar?"
Geo
Stop, stop, stop all the dancing....think for yourself, if you can.
Well we all thought you could handle such holy advice
Sorry
JC also said
Luke 16:19-25. "Now there was a certain rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, gaily living in splendor every day. And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs would come and lick his sores.
Now it came about that the poor man died and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. And in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom.
And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue; for I am in agony in this flame.'
But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony...'"
Geo
Who the hell is JC?
Jesus
Bill & Ted 31:04: "Be excellent to each other"
Morning mama Doris
Would it not be wonderful if the religions had the most elegant explanation for their gods, "we believe but we really don't know".
Normal, reasonable people know the Pope is no Marxist. What is appaling is the media giving a voice to ultraconservative illiterate clowns spewing nonsense under the effect of booze, drugs and ED medication. That's a national disgrace.
most normal and reasoning peopel see the pope as a criminal,, crimes against children. The cover ups were his 1st responsibility when he was a cardinal
I think you're mistaking the current pope for his immediate predecessor.
The problem is that the Pope seems to be very confused in matters of economics. If he persists in parroting all the standard Marxist canards about capitalism, totally ignoring the unprecedented reduction in poverty that capitalism has brought about, people are going to assume that he's a Marxist. It's one thing to exhort the faithful to be charitable, but it's an entirely different thing to exhort the faithful to be "charitable" with other people's money – an open invitation to gross corruption. An inherent flaw in fundamentalist Christian doctrine is that if we all did what Christ said we should do – i.e., give up all worldly concerns and go out and preach the gospel – we'd all be dead because there would be nobody to provide the worldly needs of all of mooching preachers. If the Pope is really interested in reducing poverty, somebody needs to talk to him about basic economic reality so he can get his head out of the clouds.
A closer look at what Pope Francis advocates, however, reveals that he doesn't really oppose every kind of capitalism. Francis is just criticizing capitalism in its purer, cruder, less socially refined forms.
Anyone who really read the bible including acts and the sermon on the mount can see that KM borrowed his thing from JC.
"All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need." -Acts 2:44-45
Geo
Who the hell is KM? Who the hell is JC? Rush L we know is one of the lesser demons, not Satan himself.
KM Karl Marx JC Jesus Christ what is so hard about that.
To all the misguided "believers" out there, your salvation is at hand (and it is not Francis or Marx):
Tis mind boggling that your religions can be brought down to earth in less than ten seconds. With this in mind should not the moderators of this blog and their buddy Stevie P be looking for new jobs?
Again for the new members:
To wit:
Putting the kibosh on all religion in less than ten seconds: Priceless !!!
• As far as one knows or can tell, there was no Abraham i.e. the foundations of Judaism, Christianity and Islam are non-existent.
• As far as one knows or can tell, there was no Moses i.e. the pillars of Judaism, Christianity and Islam have no strength of purpose.
• There was no Gabriel i.e. Islam fails as a religion. Christianity partially fails.
• There was no Easter i.e. Christianity completely fails as a religion.
• There was no Moroni i.e. Mormonism is nothing more than a business cult.
• Sacred/revered cows, monkey gods, castes, reincarnations and therefore Hinduism fails as a religion.
• Fat Buddhas here, skinny Buddhas there, reincarnated/reborn Buddhas everywhere makes for a no on Buddhism.
Added details available upon written request.
A quick search will put the kibosh on any other groups calling themselves a religion.
So sad for you, you have nothing.
Added details:
Saving Christians from the Resurrection Con Game:
From that famous passage: In 1 Corinthians 15 St. Paul reasoned, "If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith."
Even now Catholic/Christian professors of theology are questioning the bodily resurrection of the simple, preacher man aka Jesus.
To wit;
From a major Catholic university's theology professor’s grad school white-board notes:
"Heaven is a Spirit state or spiritual reality of union with God in love, without earthly – earth bound distractions.
Jesus and Mary's bodies are therefore not in Heaven.
Most believe that it to mean that the personal spiritual self that survives death is in continuity with the self we were while living on earth as an embodied person.
Again, the physical Resurrection (meaning a resuscitated corpse returning to life), Ascension (of Jesus' crucified corpse), and Assumption (Mary's corpse) into heaven did not take place.
The Ascension symbolizes the end of Jesus' earthly ministry and the beginning of the Church.
Only Luke's Gospel records it. The Assumption ties Jesus' mission to Pentecost and missionary activity of Jesus' followers The Assumption has multiple layers of symbolism, some are related to Mary's special role as "Christ bearer" (theotokos). It does not seem fitting that Mary, the body of Jesus' Virgin-Mother (another biblically based symbol found in Luke 1) would be derived by worms upon her death. Mary's assumption also shows God's positive regard, not only for Christ's male body, but also for female bodies." "
"In three controversial Wednesday Audiences, Pope John Paul II pointed out that the essential characteristic of heaven, hell or purgatory is that they are states of being of a spirit (angel/demon) or human soul, rather than places, as commonly perceived and represented in human language. This language of place is, according to the Pope, inadequate to describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in which this world and we exist. In this he is applying the philosophical categories used by the Church in her theology and saying what St. Thomas Aquinas said long before him."
http://eternal-word.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM
With respect to rising from the dead, we also have this account:
o An added note: As per R.B. Stewart in his introduction to the recent book, The Resurrection of Jesus, Crossan and Wright in Dialogue,
o
p.4
o "Reimarus (1774-1778) posits that Jesus became sidetracked by embracing a political position, sought to force God's hand and that he died alone deserted by his disciples. What began as a call for repentance ended up as a misguided attempt to usher in the earthly political kingdom of God. After Jesus' failure and death, his disciples stole his body and declared his resurrection in order to maintain their financial security and ensure themselves some standing."
o p.168. by Ted Peters:
Even so, asking historical questions is our responsibility. Did Jesus really rise from the tomb? Is it necessary to have been raised from the tomb and to appear to his disciples in order to explain the rise of early church and the transcription of the bible? Crossan answers no, Wright answers, yes. "
o So where are the bones"? As per Professor Crossan's analyses in his many books, the body of Jesus would have ended up in the mass graves of the crucified, eaten by wild dogs, covered with lime in a shallow grave, or under a pile of stones.
I think it's about time you move past your edgy, 14-year-old angsthiest stage. You're making the rest of us look bad.
I'm an atheist, and that was the least convincing argument against the validity of religion that I've ever read.
Added details:
From the studies of Armstrong, Rushdie, Hirsi Ali, Richardson and Bayhaqi--–
The Five Steps To Deprogram 1400 Years of Islamic Myths:
( –The Steps take less than two minutes to finish- simply amazing, two minutes to bring peace and rationality to over one billion lost souls- Priceless!!!)
Are you ready?
Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.
The First Five of the 77 Branches:
"1. Belief in Allah"
aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc. should be added to your self-cleansing neurons.
"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."
Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gi-b G-nab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "crea-tionist".
"3. To believe in the existence of angels."
A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/de-vils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hitt-ites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ug-ly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as f–airies and "tin–ker be-lls". Modern de-vils are classified as the de-mons of the de-mented.
"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."
Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.
Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the un-educated masses in line. Today we call them for-tune tellers.
Prophecies are also invali-dated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.
"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings
be upon him) alone."
Mohammed spent thirty days "fasting" (the Ramadan legend) in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic vi-olence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallu-cinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.
Walk these Five Steps and we guarantee a complete recovery from your Islamic ways!!!!
Unfortunately, there are not many Muslim commentators/readers on this blog so the "two-minute" cure is not getting to those who need it. If you have a Muslim friend, send him a copy and help save the world.
Analogous steps are available at your request for deprogramming the myths of Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism and Paganism..
Dearest "reality" (and yours is angry and twisted)
Where in heavens' earth did all this matter and energy come from?
And what about the laws (eg thermodynamics, etc) that govern their interconversion?
Darwin?
Pope – Humble, Genuine, Caring, Studious
Limbaugh – Narcissistic, Angry, Drug-Abusing, Manipulative
Who should we be listening to on what the Bible says?
Look at meeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!! I'mmmmm hummmmble
Jesus said it will always be poor among us and if you don't work you don't eat and it's no such thing as a good Marxist
And this
"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." (Matthew 19:24)
(Lk 12:15) "Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions."
Matthew 6:19"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.
"What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul?"
-Matthew 16:26
Jesus answered, 'If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'"
-Matthew 19:21
All of things you mentioned, the Pope should do.
Geo
Bible verses are posted by those that can't think for themselves, take a bow, but no encores, please.
Lots of folks are playing Jesus said
So why not post his actual words
Eh?
Quite true. Which explains why they have priests, parsons, minister gurus, mullahs, imams, etc. to tell them how to live and think.
Professor Gerd Lüdemann [Jesus] (94) comments on the Mark passage: (Mark 14:7)
"The historical yield of the tradition is nil. But it does reflect the closeness of Jesus to a probably notorious woman of Galilee (cf. on Luke 7:36-50).
In his comments on the Lucan version, Lüdemann suggests that Luke knew the Mark story yet deviated from his usual practice of following Mark closely in the passion account in order to bring this story (in an amended form) to an earlier location in his Gospel. He notes the addition of explicit mention of the sinner status of the woman in vss 37 and 39 (and the forgiveness of her many sins in vss 47, 48, 49). He then concludes:
If the story of the woman who was a sinner must be regarded as a mere development of Mark 14:3-9 it is unhistorical. But as the encounter of Jesus with a prost-itute comes from the Lucan special tradition, this may be historical. For the contact of Jesus with shady people is a fact. The historicity of the encounter of Jesus with a prost-itute is supported by the criterion of offensiveness. (p. 308)"
Did he not also say about the "rich man not going to heaven"? And was he not all for giving to the poor?
And did he not say that we are our brother's keepers?
AZSenior
He was such a kidder or there is not a Pope in their mythical heaven.
Really? Jesus said there is no good Marxist? Glad you cleared that up, Einstein.
There are powers much higher than Rush and it's just a matter of time. Rush should have left the U.S. in 2008 as he said he would but I guarantee that he's not welcome anywhere other than Iran.
There is only the vote today. Any group wanting anything changed in economic, social, racial areas only needs to generate 51% to get it. The needs of the nation as a whole are not important. We no longer even think that way...as a nation. You can eliminate God, you can collect and spend taxes you can alter generations of economic growth, even alter how our kids are taught..and what they are taught simply by gaining the votes needed. That is the political capitalism in America today. We are a nation not bound by the diversity but controlled by those who today or tomorrow have the votes to dominate how the country moves at the time in history. It's a template that we see used by every social, economic or racial group wanting something for themselves. Capitalisn did not bring down this country...we are divided because there is an advantage to being divided.
chris: "There is only the vote today. Any group wanting anything changed in economic, social, racial areas only needs to generate 51% to get it. The needs of the nation as a whole are not important. We no longer even think that way...as a nation."
I think your view of U.S. history is a dream.
chris: "[..] We are a nation not bound by the diversity but controlled by those who today or tomorrow have the votes to dominate how the country moves at the time in history. It's a template that we see used by every social, economic or racial group wanting something for themselves."
Too much generalization here, chris. give examples and then maybe you'll discover how cases differ in cause, purpose and possibly justification.
chris: "Capitalisn did not bring down this country..."
Last I checked, we're still a country.
chris: "we are divided because there is an advantage to being divided."
In some regards, isn't that symptomatic of a const-itutional democracy?
The Pope is living and preaching the message given to us by Jesus Christ. No political bias one way or the other.
Chris demonstrating the powerful use of all caps to make a point.
LOL
_____________________________________________________________________________
Chris
Prove it, otherwise all I see here is.
I'M A ANGRY LEFTIST, I'M A ANGRY LEFTIST, I'M A ANGRY LEFTIST, I'M A ANGRY LEFTIST, I'M A ANGRY LEFTIST, I'M A ANGRY LEFTIST, I'M A ANGRY LEFTIST, I'M A ANGRY LEFTIST, I'M A ANGRY LEFTIST, I'M A ANGRY LEFTIST
Boo hoo hoo...
December 15, 2013 at 6:41 am | Report abuse | Reply
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a very bad thing some would say evil thing has been going on for some time it started long before the age of global tele communication.,
the places of government, education,media and religion have been taken over by a well organized group of monopolists and central banks.,
the new world order is being created by dividing us and enslaving us at the same time.
The Pope is obviously ignorant of economics and human nature. I am a devout Christian, but not a Catholic. The Pope is an ordinary man who reached a high rank in an inbred and closed political organization. He is confusing corporatism with capitalism. Capitalism has improved the lives of more people by far while other systems tend to quickly be taken over by despots. The U.S. economy is being drained by despots, but it is only loosely called capitalism anymore since the progressives have conspired to chip away at it since they are all about controlling others' behaviors. Capitalism isn't heaven, but socialism will not work until Jesus comes again. Then I'll be all about it.
actually "ignorant of economics ", that's incorrect. The vatican makes lots of $$$$. In fact the vatican is for a single banking system where they are part of the control.
The pope and the vatican are about power and money, first
Pope = Apostle
Learn and set yourself free of hatred and ignorance!
What would folks call JC if he read the Sermon On The Mount in congress
inappropriate.
a very bad thing has been going on for some time it started long before the age of global tele communication.,
the places of government, education,media and religion have been taken over by a well organized group of monopolists and central banks.,
the new world order is being created by dividing us and enslaving us at the same time.
All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need." -Acts 4:31-35
Rush Limbaugh doesn't know anything about Socialism or he would be screaming for us to stop the Corporate Welfare.
Truly and honestly this country is financially and morally bankrupt from our baseless desire for the betterment of all. Couldn't tell you the amount of people of the all economic classes wanting a bail out whether tax deductions for morgages, child deductions or stock options just is a joke. Altruism is a lie like generousity cause the U.S isn't generous just stingy just like the athiest chinese! All I wanted was a chance but the american psychy is too stupid and short-sighted for a better world without discrimination and prejudice stupidity just like their financial malmanagement or bad health lifestyles.
Altruism is a lie, Peter, but for a more basic reason. A life-form cannot function in contradiction to what it values most. What IT values most. There are people who risk their lives, even give up their lives, but when they do, well the proof of what they value most is in what they do. I might run into a burning building to save someone but that proves (1) I believe I won't get killed or (2) I really do value their life over mine, perhaps they are young and I've seen enough by now, or (3) I cannot look myself n the mirror again if I do not risk all. Whatever it is, it is what I value above what I risk. What DID Jesus give up on the cross, compared to what he believed he was gaining? And all those martyrs, trading earth for certain heaven?
It seems you've managed to convince yourself that you know certain things about certain people's motives that you actually don't know. You seem just to be preaching a new dogmatism. You seem to be reasoning from unwarranted assumptions to a foregone conclusion.