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 The group American Atheists has placed this billboard in New York City's Times Square.
December 21st, 2013
10:22 AM ET
Why atheists should quit the 'War on Christmas’Opinion by Chris Stedman, special to CNN
In recent years, one organization, American Atheists, has claimed the mantle of prime atheist promoter of the tired “War on Christmas” narrative. This year, they ushered in the season with an electronic billboard in New York City’s Times Square carrying the message: “Who needs Christ during Christmas? Nobody.” The word "Christ" is crossed out, just in case their message wasn't clear enough. The American Atheists maintain that their latest entry in the annual “War on Christmas” saga is a message to other atheists that they are not alone. In a recent Fox News appearance, American Atheists President Dave Silverman said, “The point that we’re trying to make is that there’s a whole bunch of people out there for whom religion is the worst part of Christmas, but they go to church anyways, and we’re here to tell them they don’t have to.” While that intention is important and admirable, very few people—atheist or theist—seem to interpret the message as welcoming to anyone. Many of the responses I’ve seen have been vitriolic and disturbingly anti-atheist. Which raises the question: If the goal truly is to reach isolated atheists, why does the advertisement read as a dig at Christians? A better billboard for American Atheists’s stated aim might read: “Don’t celebrate Christmas? You’re not alone.” As atheists become more visible in our society, the entire “War on Christmas” back-and-forth feels ugly and unnecessary. Worse still, it seems to do little more than offer ammunition to those claiming atheists are just mean-spirited grinches. Bill O’Reilly—one of the major “War on Christmas” soldiers—made that clear when he and I discussed the “War on Christmas” a couple of weeks ago. Let’s not kid ourselves: There is no war on Christmas. We live in a culture that privileges stories of conflict, so it’s understandable that this narrative would gain traction—with or without billboards. Much of this narrative is a manifestation of religious fears about our increasingly secular society, and it reflects widespread anxieties about atheists and religious differences. But it doesn’t reflect reality. Rather, as religious diversity in the U.S. has become more recognizable, Americans have largely broadened their approach to this time of year. According to new data from the Public Religion Research Institute, the percentage of Americans who prefer the inclusive “Happy Holidays” or “Season’s Greetings” has now exceeded the percentage that prefers “Merry Christmas.” It’s not that Christmas is under attack; instead, our society is becoming better at embracing its religious diversity and challenging the notion that a single majority religion should dominate public expressions of belief. So why does the “War on Christmas” narrative persist? Based on how much play they give it each December, the “War on Christmas” narrative seems to be good for Fox News ratings. And American Atheists has openly admitted that it is good for their pocketbooks, as their talk show appearances bring in a swell of donations. Consider this from a recent profile of Silverman: “Silverman’s notorious anti-Christmas billboards and subsequent TV appearances have breathed new life into American Atheists and are often followed by an uptick in subscribers and donations. ... According to Silverman, the primary objective of the billboards is to get invitations to talk shows.” In other words: American Atheists and Fox News - alongside conservatives like Sarah Palin - seem to have discovered a mutually beneficial relationship. But does this relationship benefit atheists more broadly? Does it accurately represent the sentiments of nontheists in this country? Does it improve atheist-theist relations? Does it lessen the widespread stigma and distrust that exists between atheists and theists, which enables atheist marginalization across the U.S.? Does it invite Christians to think critically about religious privilege? Many atheists, myself included, suspect that there are more effective approaches to tackling these important issues. To start, atheists can build positive relationships with believers to humanize our communities and educate one another about our differences. That’s something that billboards, for all of their flash and fundraising capabilities, likely won’t accomplish. Atheists face real marginalization in the U.S., and it should be robustly challenged. But we also have good tidings and great joy to offer—important contributions to the public square that are currently being drowned out by attention-grabbing billboards claiming “nobody” needs Christ in Christmas. In the spirit of generosity, compassion, and kindness so often associated with this time of year, let’s ditch the billboards and build relationships of goodwill. Chris Stedman is the Assistant Humanist Chaplain at Harvard University, Coordinator of Humanist Life for the Yale Humanist Community, and author of "Faitheist: How an Atheist Found Common Ground with the Religious." You can follow him on Twitter at @ChrisDStedman. The views expressed in this column belong to Stedman. soundoff (5,210 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 Next »
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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(CNN) - The “War on Christmas:” what — or who—is it good for?
Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever: D E A D.
Let's see when you're on your dying bed who you're going to call out to. Remember that and you know what? Jesus will still forgive you.
I am sure he would if he were alive. But he died. And that was it.
When you die, you won't find out anything. Because there isn't anything there.
If I am wrong then no big deal. But what will you do if you're wrong?
@ Yarah
You could google Pascal's Wager to find the answer to that one.
@ Yarah
What will you do if it's zeus, or one of the older gods (christians call them pagan gods) than the christians god (don't forget, christian god is a realative new god in terms of human exisitance). For me I would have to hope that the new god is as forgiving as they say, because in the old Testament he seems like a real jerk, with all the hail of brimstone and flooding of the world stuff.
@Yarah,
What a silly question? Did that question really work for you? Do you really think it is revealing?
Oh Yarah, I won't have to worry about being wrong. Because I will be dead.
Geez, some people.
I am not religious but if someone wants to celebrate Xmas with Jesus in it let them. Believe what you want that what makes Canada and the USA free. A war on Jesus in Xmas is like going commie. It is wrong
But there is no war on Jesus in Christmas. That's what's so insane. Only those delusional and insecure would think so.
Nobody is saying Christians need to get rid of Jesus. The point is there are plenty of people who celebrate at this time of year without Jesus and that is OK too.
Imagine how much better the world would be if christians, muslims and jews started practicing thoughtful reasoning to determine right from wrong rather than trying to force their dogma on us all.
Christians are the vast majority in the US, atheists are around 2%. Atheists aren't even a political threat, never mind any other kind of threat, yet many Christians ask, Why are you atheists bothered by religion? Given that Christians are the vast majority and pose a political threat, there is an issue. Read the below comments made towards atheists and tell me there is no reason for concern:
Scott
I disagree. We want atheists to keep doing what they've always done, ie destroying anything of value. What we need is for conservatives to unite and rise up and drive these rats back into the dank dark corners of humanity, where they fit quite nicely.
Douglas
Amen brother...amen!
Douglas
Tony, Jesus used a WHIP to drive the moneychangers out of the temple
Sometimes you just have to kick some @ss...just like Jesus did.
Light of Purest Truth
You are right, Scott! These wretched creatures are doing every thing they can to doom themselves to eternal agony and pain in the cauldron of fire! The mark has already been put upon the land and the end is near. If these vile animals knew what was good for them they would fall now and beg for His love and
eternal agony??
Sorry son, we don't believe in make believe.
What they say about atheists they will also say about Muslims, have said about Jews, and will probably get around to saying about anyone non-Christian.
TTtOO,
These same Christians that would say those things about atheists would likely do as you say. It comes across as false bravado to me, lack of confidence in their position at the root.
Dreams of being able to have the World exactly the way they personally imagine want it. All for self. But without having to share or give up anything all the other real folk here have or need.
That's why imagined heaven is so attractive. It just has to be so much better than living with other people on earth.
The words these loving Christians to describe those who don't believe in their fantasies, i.e., "rats', "wretched creatures" and "vile animals", as well as the idea that we need our "asses kicked" tell me that if they ever get their religion encoded into the US government, they'll make the Crusades look like a picnic in the park.
Loving Christians sure enjoy feeling superior to everyone else and thinking that everyone else is subhuman.
And Christians wiped out Pagan traditions after appropriating the tree, mistletoe, and other customs. That's the real war, since most agnostics and atheists question any religion that controls people.
But Christianity makes so much sense!
An omnipotent god who created the first man out of dirt and the first woman out of the dirt man’s rib later impregnates a man’s wife/fiance' (something about Thou Shall Not Commit Adultery comes in here) to reproduce itself. After the baby (Jesus) is born it disappears for over 30 years, reappears and sacrifices itself to itself with the aid of the Romans. Before it is killed though it walks on water, turns water into wine, heals lepers and makes a zombie out of a man named Lazarus (funny that there is only one source docu.ment for these spectacular events). Jesus tells us that its death is redemption (loopho.le) for having created imperfect beings (so much for omniscience) and that its crucifixion is better than the previous attempt to rid the world of evil a few thousand years earlier. That effort involved 40 days and nights of rain to drown every single living thing except good fish and that which boarded a large wooden boat and dispersed themselves on island continents thousands of miles from where the boat eventually landed. After Jesus’ death it reawakens three days later and tells its followers that if you telepathically promise that you accept it as your master, symbolically eat its flesh and drink its blood it will accept you and cleanse you of an evil force you inherited from the dirtman who was convinced by a talking snake to eat a fruit from a magic tree.
How can you not believe that?
Who needs Christ is Christmas? Silly azzz question. Everybody needs him.
I have a corkscrew in the shape of a crucifix – very handy.
Pity your all-powerful god couldn't give us a peace-causing Christ for every generation in every area of the World.
Why does anyone need a guy who may have not even existed and regardless, has been dead for thousands of years? Just a weird thing to say.
I disagree. We want atheists to keep doing what they've always done, ie destroying anything of value. What we need is for conservatives to unite and rise up and drive these rats back into the dank dark corners of humanity, where they fit quite nicely.
Amen brother...amen!
Wow, look at you two! Christians are so angry, so full of hate.
on a larger scale, instead of paying 100 billion to deliver a bible to every one in the world, we paid 1 trillion for a democratic islamic government in iraq and afghanistan, and we ki.lled 100 million.
they still have the doctrine of Jihad. and we still have the prophecy of the wh.ore that rides the beast, which i would advise you to watch out for. the worship of a world secular system is the mark of Satan.
That was done by a Christian president with the overwhelming support of American Christians.
but Jerry, have you heard of apostacy? if you read through the new testament there will be deceit and antichrist like people who have satanic power .
Galatians 2:17
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
and sometimes, Jerry, Satan will do his work right at home!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JuSfRgh0Vo
I do admire the way that she keeps Satan in the house because he makes good toast.
You don't have an other cheek, unlike the only perfect man?
Tony, Jesus used a WHIP to drive the moneychangers out of the temple
Sometimes you just have to kick some @ss...just like Jesus did.
Like all the conservatives did to Wall Street? So nice to have the banks back to helping the people.
Jesus had a thing going for ass.
Not going anywhere, hater. Deal with it.
So basically, you have no respect for the Constitution or the legality of your actions. You just want to hurt people who don't believe exactly what you do. What a traitorous coward.
Something on the order of a pogrom, you mean. Good old-fashioned conservative values haven't withstood the light of day.
Spoken like a true constitution hating frothing at the mouth Talibangelical.
You are right, Scott! These wretched creatures are doing every thing they can to doom themselves to eternal agony and pain in the cauldron of fire! The mark has already been put upon the land and the end is near. If these vile animals knew what was good for them they would fall now and beg for His love and mercy! Amen!
Serious question – how did someone convince you to believe that? It's obviously far-fetched, but you seem to seriously think it's true. How are you able to suspend logical thinking and conclude that makes sense?
I just had a vision.It's March 13th 2014. Y'all get your affairs in order.
"Wretched creatures"?? "Vile animals"??
You are sure a good example of Christian love, aren't you?
Scott, I am open to a serious discussion. Would you be willing to explain what you mean by claiming that atheists destroy anything of value? First of all, making a generalization towards atheists is ridiculous because we don't have any defined views that are consistent. Secondly, what are we trying to destroy?
There are lots of "good" things that I fight for in this world, but the two that could be considered driven by my atheistic views are:
1) No childhood brain washing by religious people, which leads to adults who think it's a virtue to ignore facts (ie, faith).
2) No laws that are not based on the greater good of society, but solely based on the principles of a given religion.
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Christianity is built upon a LIE ...
................ because ....................
..... http://www.GodIsImaginary.com ...
... and thank goodness because he ...
............. emanates from the .............
...................... http://www.EvilBible.com
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The war on Christmas is a celebration of sin and debauchery.
Don't be fooled...there is still time to repent at the foot of the cross.
Give up greed, gluttony, fornication and attacks on Jesus.
Douglas, Austin, Live4Him, lol?? – there's a whole lot of crazy in the Christian ranks.
OV – fred and chad showed up the other day !
At least you didn't trot out your beloved gay coitus.
It's always amusing when the BB's resident gay Shaker graces us with a drive-by; lol
Poor Doug. He hates himself so much he has to share the gift with others.
have you ever seen a dog try to hump someones leg? is there something "ra.pist" about that?
do you see where i am going with the outrage for the duck man? humans have an automatic greater responsibility , and judgment, because we are different.
So you feel it's important for humans to not hump each other's legs?
Where did it go? Where did it go? Where did it go? Where did it go? Where did it go? Ah, there is my leg.
Where's the leg where's the leg where's the leg . . . SQUIRREL!
the same reason that everyone holds duck man responsible for saying something wrong, is no different than God expecting you to do right.
There is a pathway that humans should follow. erring is not reputable and in come cases decent. now, if a dog hu.mps your leg, this is simply foolish error. its funny. and also, if you hu.mp the wrong thing, this is an error. there is nothing disrespecting in comparing a.n.al to beastiality. and the proof is in the folly of a leg hum.ping dog. would you tell your dog to quit?
ok, now the old testament punishments are really harsh. but we have a new covenant, the promise that the Holy Spirit can sancti.fy our lives supernaturally.
The duck man is a real person. That other thing you yanked out of your head is just some opinion that some still have.
If my dog was humping your leg, I would not make him quit. Heck, I'd give him some treaties and say "Good boy!"
LMAO!
there is no evolutionary limit to any judgment on what you should hump. do you eat dead animals?
That is because evolution isn't an answer to moral question.
This is all just more shock and awe. Don't fall for it people. This too shall pass once people get it out of their systems.
People need to do what their kindergarten teachers tried to teach them, share and play nicely with others. Christmas is not the only game in town this time of year and it's insulting to say Merry Christmas to someone you don't know because you assume they're Christian, or think they ought to be. Believe me, you can't tell someone is a Christian simply by looking at them. Happy Holidays isn't denying Christmas, it's saying you hope whatever someone celebrates this time of year, Christmas, Yule, Hanukkah, Festivus, Kwaanza, or whatever other holidays come this time of year, they have a happy one. Christians need to get over their desire to monopolize everything. I,for one, celebrate Christmas AND Yule.
kunli(-) wuh'rak irak-wak!
Oh! You speak Canvasback Duckese! Let me translate from Canvasback to English for my good Christian friends!
"Gays are Satan-Spawn mass-murdering subhumans who should be barbequed with a spit through them in the name of loving Jesus."
Canvasbacks are good Christian birds.
And now I'll quack a while. Quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack
I celebrate Christmas. I am an atheist but have no issue over the name. Simply a name for me, where the holiday is so much, much more. Same holds true for Easter. I suppose if we were to dig a bit into word meanings we would discover that we utilize many words in our vocabulary where the initial meaning of the words was entirely different from its current usage...
Yep. Mid-Winter has been celebrated by countless cultures. It seems, though, that some christians are afraid that if they acknowledge any other holiday, it diminishes their own. Sad and selfish.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFRreyt-WP8
This should've happened a long time ago, preferably during the Spanish Inquisition, or the mid-Atlantic Slave Trade.
Dear Jesus:
I admit that I am a sinner and need to be saved. I realize that You alone can save me from my sins, I ask right now for Your forgiveness and salvation. I believe that You died for my sins and that You rose from the grave. I am sorry for my sins and ask that You come into my heart and take control of my life. I ask Your Holy Spirit to lead me and guide me so that I may live for You as my Savior and Lord. In Your Name. Amen.,.
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Christianity is built upon a LIE ...
................ because ....................
..... http://www.GodIsImaginary.com ...
... and thank goodness because he ...
............. emanates from the .............
...................... http://www.EvilBible.com
-----------------
.............................................................
What a terrible idea!
So glad I never went for this stuff.
I am amazed that so many people hate something they don't believe exists. Could be a new definition for insanity.
What exactly are you talking about? The only hate I see around here is the hatred for reading the actual article before posting.
Open your eyes so that you may see.
So in other words, you can't answer the question.
I see a lot of anger and hatred in your post. You must have a pretty short fuse – or it is boiling inside of you waiting for a chance to express itself.
Live4Him, I am genuinely curious as to how you think the things you're posting make sense. I know that comes of as condescending, and it is, but you're posts are just illogical. Did you go to school? Were you raised religious? Did you have any life-altering experiences that caused you to depend on religion? I truly don't get how it's possible for someone who can access a computer to think like you.
Funny. I'm not angry at all. I think you're projecting.
You saw anger and hatred in that? Wow. The fact is, your assumption was purely imaginary on your part.
Someone having a different opinion is not hate.
@Jake : but you're posts are just illogical. Did you go to school?
Sad. You claim to be educated, but don't know the difference between 'your' (possessive form of you) and "you're" (you are). No wonder you must resort to ad hominems instead of debating the evidence.
@Ron : Someone having a different opinion is not hate.
True. However, your posit is disinformation. If one has a differing viewpoint, they would state the facts supporting that viewpoint. But, posting continuously on a forum advocating that which is claimed to be imaginary leads one to infer that something other than facts is motivating such action. And this implies a strong emotion like hate.
BTW – I'm out of here for now. Time for dinner. Have fun!
Okay, so you admit to being angry and full of hatred because you repeatedly post the same position on this blog.
Those are your standards, and they fit you.
@ Live4Him “Sad. You claim to be educated, but don't know the difference between 'your' (possessive form of you) and "you're" (you are). No wonder you must resort to ad hominems instead of debating the evidence.”
Yes, I went to school and have a graduate level degree. My undergraduate degree is in Mechanical Engineering and my graduate degree is in Finance. I do know the difference between 'your' and 'you're', but luckily, Jesus died for my grammatical sins (right?) so I'm not too worried about making an occasional mistake when I'm responding on a CNN message board. Rather than focusing on that and trying to debunk my entire point based on a typo, perhaps you could address the point of my post?
we do not hate a god we do not believe in, dean. we are tired of the followers of this delusion legislating it in our lives
get a clue
denying your anger / hate doesn't help address the issue.
if you jump off a cliff you will obey the law of gravity.
if you deny God you will not be as happy as you could be. much less so. legislating secular God void traps is a spiritually violent trick and assault on your person.
I'm sorry that you need to believe in god to be happy. Not everybody has that particular problem.
Update – we still have a few more awards for the Fundy Method of Inquiry & Verification to give away. I think Austin is already in the running for one!
you can tell James Randie project that I can take his money.
Why would you want others to do that for you? Call them up yourself.
Or maybe you have and they got a restraining order or something.
" you can tell James Randie project that I can take his money. "
Nonsense. If that were true, you'd have already done so.
im ready to go though. but it looks like he has a lot of hoops on his website.
if he would simply interested in a walk in without getting 4 news agencies and going through a major spectacle i would have allready gone. i have no problem with money. He sounds like royal pain.
Nonsense. Do continue trolling, though.
have yo ever gone to his sight and read what the ordeal entails?
i have to take off from the library, but i am going to persue a conversation with him.
. .......cite
because Jehovah Jireh provides.
" you can tell James Randie project that I can take his money. "
" it looks like he has a lot of hoops on his website...."
Epic fail.
that was funny i did laugh. thank you. .
but imagine that James Randie never exhisted. does that mean God never could?
I have a supernatural gift. or did. the Holy Spirit is a sanctifying spirit that bears the truth of God's word of a persons heart supernaturally. the seal of the spirit, is not human achieved.
Acts 2:17
King James Version of Acts 2:17.
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
this, is what is now happening because He is risen. and He is God.
im taking off my friend . always a joy to talk to ya.
Well you had better get used to it. I really doesn't matter what you believe or love it or hate it. He Is Lord!
The fact is this: Phil 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
If you have breath and a sound mind it is not too late to accept the Lord Jesus into your life.
Agree with Him that you are sinner and in need of salvation.
Believe and receive Him into your life and allow Him to be Lord of your life.
Commit to live your according to His word and enjoy the wonderful relationship and fellowship with Him and the saints, the elect, that He intended for you to have.
In Christ,
BJ
What a trooper. On his knees and always ready to serve his Lord BJ.
How in the world do people fall for such silly stuff in this century!?
You sound so foolish quoting an old book as if it were something other than the words of ordinary people.
Think for yourself and get out of the cult.
The applies both ways, for the believers and for the none believers. By the way they should re-name gay marrige to gayrrige. That would solved it all.
I know no atheist that hates God any more than they hate Lex Luthor.
something is certainly motivating you to make all these posts to people who believe in that which you don't.
Mostly we're responding to christians who are whining about how terribly persecuted they feel because of this imaginary war on Christmas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RNfL6IVWCE
@tallulah13 : Mostly we're responding to christians who are whining about how terribly persecuted they feel because of this imaginary war on Christmas.
Help me out here, because I just don't understand. You claim that Christ is imaginary, but you spend hours upon hours of your time refuting belief in that so-called imaginary being. Now, I don't believe in the Easter Bunny – and I spend approaching zero time on refuting such a being. It would seem that if you REALLY believed Christ was imaginary, you'd do about the same. But, by wasting so much of you life refuting such, you appear to be battling you own concerns (that he may not be imaginary).
L4H,
I enjoy the conversation, absolutely no hate in me. I respect religions role in our development. I believe we may not have made it without religion. Of course that doesn't mean the religions are true. Of the thousands of Gods, even you might agree most are false.
Politicians don't enact legislation based on the Easter Bunny. Surely you know this.
You don't understand Liver, because you're just not trying. There is no war on Christmas. There is just a lot of made up rhetoric about a war on Christmas. But christians are all upset by this percieved attack. I only come here to comment to remind them that there is no war and they are getting all worked up over nothing. Get it now?
live 4 him.. the easter bunny does not outwardly condemn other human beings.. such as gay folks lets say, because of some alien tells it to. Belief in gods and the continual pressure by those adherents of said gods to get society to conform to its wishes is cause for concern and has to be confronted.. it would be easier if one of your gods came down and poke directly rather than through some of the fringe elements of society. but of course it will never happen..we know that and so, deep down, do you.
its interesting how most terrorist attacks always include the hatred for Israel. Christ loved the world, and died for it.
and no talullah, i am not comparing you to a terrorist. i know that in your system you are standing up for all people, but you can not do that unless you agree with the real agent of freedom.
In Him is freedom and no other.
I have no idea what you are talking about Austin. Really.
I'm not a terrorist, I'm just a working, tax-paying average American citizen. I just don't believe in any god. For some reason, that makes people like Live4Him hate me. I don't get it and I don't want to get it. I'll leave the hate to the believers.
no my friend. i really respect the humane approach to what drives you. and i agree with you, but i have been given faith to add to this picture another dimension.
i don't fault you for not believing . it is not your fault. there is one who is out to deceive you just like eve.
you can not earn faith. but you can certainly have it. Don't you want something supernatural?
I don't believe in the supernatural, Austin. It's fun to pretend, but there is no evidence at all to indicate that the supernatural exists. I have no problem with reality. I don't want eternal life and I don't need a supernatural father figure to protect me. You are welcome to believe whatever you want, but I'll stick to that which can be proven to exist.
what about the life you have now? how could you want this life? or not , not want it. and yet "not want eternal life'
why?
I like my life and it's enough for me. I'm not greedy. I am content to live this life and then die and eventually be forgotten. Why in the world should I want or expect more?
its interesting how most terrorist attacks always include religion as a motivation.
i love this subject of apostacy, because,
you can not cite a verse in the New Covenant, that ordains violence. This is why all men should see the light, that there is one Prince of Peace. we have been over this fifty times.
there is no Jihad in the new testament, which is a promise that the Holy Spirit can sanctify your soul from within supernaturally.
what is bad about this?
There is not a verse in the New testement that cites the Trinity either, that doesn't mean its adherents haven't been able to concoct it.
This alleged Jesus fellow according to the myth was a spirit that rented some flesh for a bit then went back to where it came from.
Yeah, some sacrifice.
well, this is God's expression in full form. That there is no way around the issue of sin, and that He paid the debt for it and you are justified. There is nothing you have to do , but can you avoid rejecting this?
He can help you avoid this downfall. He can fish you up out of deep waters, where there is no supernatural light.
He is bigger than all our problems.
According to that myth you are correct but there is no more compelling reason to believe that myth than any other.
Austin ..what do you mean by "freedom" when you talk of your alien being. In what way is conforming to the dislike of others of the same species because they do not meet your "standards" be freedom? I would say you have no freedom to think, you are more or less in a straight jacket..pardon the pun.
Well that's total gibberish, Dean. What we do not care for is what Christians do and how they treat others. I don't hate god any more than you hate leprechauns.
This is always an amusing approach – claiming that someone hates or is bothered by something they don't believe in.
--------------
...................................................
Christianity is built upon a LIE ...
................ because ....................
..... http://www.GodIsImaginary.com ...
... and thank goodness because he ...
............. emanates from the .............
...................... http://www.EvilBible.com
-----------------
.............................................................
To put it into terms that you can understand.
If the bulk of the U.S. populace believed in Zeus and the banner displayed stated all unbelievers of Zeus can enjoy Zeusmas without Zeus, I would still find the banner useful to my ideals. As I am a unbeliever of Zeus and the banner would grant me the understanding that I am not alone in celebrating Zeusmas without Zeus.
As a non-believer of Zeus, I can not possibly harness any hatred towards a character in which I hold no belief in. Though, it is possible to hold some malice towards those that carry a sword for the idea of Zeus when there is no proof of Zeus or any factor that is within the realm of evidence leading us to this Zeus character.
Now just replace Zeus with Christ and your on your way to understanding the mindset of an atheist.
Can God, religion and science coexist?
Science addresses things that can be tested objectively, where it is possible to disprove the idea.
God can't be tested objectively, it is not disprovable.
At first glance, it would seem that God and science can coexist since they occupy mutually exclusive realms of thought. While that is true today, it is not certain whether future techniques and human capabilities can cause an intersection where a disproof would be possible. That is an open question.
Religion adds dogma and doctrine to God, and it can be objectively tested. There are many cases where religion and science conflict. All Abrahamic religions fail tests of fact and morality. They are false. Same for Hindu, Greek mythology, Norse mythology, and many others. I know of no God based religion that doesn't fail objective tests.
If there is a God, you'll have to look outside the established religions to find it.
Should reason and religion, a disease on reason, coexist?
Religion and reason have quite a bit of conflict. That said, there is a lot more to life than reason alone.
I would not suggest otherwise. But religion, unfounded self-reinforcing systems of belief that can have powerful, often negative influences over virtually all parts of our lives, shouldn't have a place any more than mal-ware has a place on our computers.
I love your how you used malware as a attributing factor of the religious. I wish we can create some sort of anti-malware device that works on live subjects. Seriously!
There is, it's called science. It doesn't always work though, the religion spell is strong. Add time to science and that should do it.
@bostontola : All Abrahamic religions fail tests of fact and morality.
Nice conclusion, but without any testable premises – it is just a non sequitur (hint: non-scientific, non-reasonable, etc.).
L4H,
Your creation myth is testable. It fails every test. It is false. Page 1 of your most sacred text, false.
@bostontola : Your creation myth is testable. It fails every test.
Again, another nice conclusion, but without any testable premises – it is just a non sequitur (hint: non-scientific, non-reasonable, etc.). You start with a conclusion (i.e. myth) and go downhill from there.
L4H,
I'm afraid not. The Abrahamic creation myth states the earth was created before the stars. We can test the age of both and stars are much older. Fail.
I think that our human brains are incapable of conceptualizing whatever the truth is. Of course, all you can prove is what actually exists or happened and anything outside of that can never be dis-proven. But we could get enough information to answer enough of the questions to make the god hypothesis completely irrelevant to those trying to understand where we came from. In other words, the more we learn, the more a god becomes a less and less likely part of the equation.
What tests of fact or morality does God fail, in your opinion?
Sorry bostontola you replied L4 at the same time asked.
No worries RB, Merry Christmas.
Merry Christmas to you and yours.
RB,
Please read carefully, I said God can't currently be tested objectively. Religion can and has been tested. The Abrahamic creation myth is testable and is false.
I understand what you are saying. The creation narrative is very brief and leaves lots of room for speculation, including the idea that it isn't literal. Other than creation and the flood, are there other things you consider false, the resurrection for example?
If there is a God with the power to create the universe and life, would God be capable of doing things we would consider miracles?
RB,
If the bible isn't literal, then it can mean anything, and therefore has no value in law (it can have poetic value). An omnipotent God can do anything it wants. If it lays false trails just to screw with scientists, I'm not interested in a God like that.
I don't think God has left us any false trails. I just think there are things that we haven't learned or discovered yet. Also, scientists are capable of being wrong on rare occasion.
I think we have creation in the first verse of Genesis. Some say verse two indicates something happened to the first creation and then what follows is the next creation. We can what if from now on. I think the key to finding God on an individual basis is to seek a spiritual being spiritually, rather than in the physical or natural realm.
RB,
I agree, scientists are wrong sometimes and science is incomplete. But there are things that are testable in many ways using different science and scientists. The science that is verified so completely is in conflict with some aspects of Christian dogma.
I also agree there are spiritual things that are currently outside of the science realm. I have spiritual experiences myself. They are brought on by natural experiences and understanding of deep things. It is quite fulfilling, I understand completely. I get it with no appeal to the supernatural.
Depends on the god.
The Christian version of God fails all kinds of things we know about the universe. For example, we know it wasn't created in 6 days. Extremely convincing evidence suggests that we evolved over millions of years and aren't all the offspring of Adam and Eve.
You know CNN, it is really annoying when I take the time to write a post that has no inflammatory statements and for some reason, it doesn't show up. In this case, I was agreeing with the poster I was responding to, Fr33d0mhawk, but pointing out that atheists have a diverse set of views and therefore it's difficult to form groups since we are independent thinkers. It would however be helpful to have a united front to fight against religious based legislation (like anti gay marriage laws), but it's like trying to heard cats.
It was probably a combination of offensive letters, like "tit" or "cum" or "vag". There's a whole list of them around here somewhere. The site has an automatic sensor that won't let you post words with those potentially offensive letter groups in them. Rather tiresome when you want to mention the Constitution. I go around the problem by putting a snip of html code in the words. Other people have other methods.
Hmm, maybe, thanks. I'm confused as to why your post went through then?
I'm going to have to start typing my responses in Word and pasting them so I don't lose a few minutes of thoughtful typing because of this kind of thing!
He is including hidden characters in his post. For example, bold on / bold off.
I put in hidden HTML code. Like the letter "b" inside brackets followed immediately by "/b" in brackets. I just put that between letters and it confuses the censor.
These brackets:
Darned HTML wouldn't let them show on the prior message.
Sheesh. The pointy brackets. <
Jake,
There are a group of unalloyed words that are auto filtered. Example, c.um. If it is in a word like circu.mstances, the whole post is blocked.
Thanks. Pretty dumb if you ask me. I'm pretty sure there are other places kids can go on the internet to access questionable content. I can understand censoring post that are hateful towards other posters, but "bad" words seems pretty pointless in this day and age.
Couldn't agree more.
I am an atheist. I was raised Jewish. I've always felt that it was my beliefs that were under attack. I grew up marginalized, a second class citizen. There is no war on Christmas, but Atheists are finally fighting back in the war on our (dis)beliefs.
@Cosmicc : Atheists are finally fighting back in the war on our (dis)beliefs.
How were your beliefs attacked?
If you know someone is a Jew or Muslim, do you offer that person a steaming plate of roast pork? If you know someone is atheist, do you keep trotting out the saving grace of your imaginary saviour?
@Tom, Tom, the Other One : If you know someone is atheist, do you keep trotting out the saving grace of your imaginary saviour?
First, people can change their mind (and do all the time). Second, I only 'trot out the saving grace' in a place where it won't offend – like on these forums or when a person has suffered a significant loss and/or is looking for answers. I don't try to cram my beliefs upon other people.
As when you suggested that no one can take a holiday without believing in some god that might once have been associated with that holiday?
@Tom, Tom, the Other One : As when you suggested that no one can take a holiday without believing
By following the term, you subscribe to the meaning. Take a vacation, yes, it can be done without believing. But, to take a holyday and you indirectly condone the celebration of that holy being.
Let's use a dictionary:
holiday
noun
a day of festivity or recreation when no work is done
verb
[no object] chiefly British
spend a holiday in a specified place
Here's one example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTRDRP2n4Sk
Here's another:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-vkoVWLfTs
"How were your beliefs attacked?"
As shown in the videos I posted, all too many Christians, if they can get away with it, will not hesitate to punish the atheist. They will kick them off the team, fire them from a job, and make death threats against teenage girls who stand up for their rights.
I had an outspoken fundamentalist Christian for a boss. She was horrible. I took great care to hide my atheism from her–which fortunately is not too difficult, since there is no physical manifestation. I have no doubt whatsoever that if she found out I was an atheist, she would not have hesitated to fire me. If she had been my landlord, she would have evicted me. No doubt whatsoever.
Christians have also tried to change the laws in my state to force my children to pray to their God. They try to change the laws so that teachers in the science class have to teach religious Creationism instead of science. Both me as a young student, and then later in life, my children–have to say "under God" when we pledge allegiance. I'm diabetic due to my family's genes, and Christians work to stunt stem cell research–all for religious reasons. If me or my wife winds up brain-dead, they may try to interfere in a personal family decision like they did Terry Schiavo. If my daughter or sisters become pregnant and and make a personal decision to abort the fetus, the Christians are working desperately hard to insert the power of government into that personal decision, and make the decision for her. There are Christian fundamentalists in congress, who believe global warming is not real because God said something in the OT which makes them think it's not real.
Christians never miss an opportunity to force prayer on to unwilling captive audiences–at graduation ceremonies, or town hall meetings or other government functions that my taxes pay for.
Many Christians, if they had the power to do so, would make Christianity official and mandatory. Christians will try to keep atheists out of political office–exclusively for religious reasons only–even though the Const itution explicitly forbids a religious test. If I were to run for office, I would have to lie or convert, and it would be a dishonest conversion on my part, so therefore a lie. Some Christians openly state that only Christians should be able to vote.
Many Christians openly call for repression and discrimination of gays. While I'm not myself, I have friends and relatives who are and I object to their persecution. Many Christians also seek to repress women's rights, and return them to a position similar to the 19th century or even the middle ages. Again, I'm a man, but I object to the subjugation of women.
Is this enough, or do you want more?
Oh my ... that video of that girl in OK brought tears to my eyes ... that is so sad.
I have to admit that I'm till an atheist in the closet most of the time. The main reason that I keep my mouth shut is because I know that in any debate with a believer ... I will win the arguement. And to be honest I dislike making them feel "stupid" or "beating them up" verbally/ logically. 90% of the time the debate ends up with the believer saying something to the effect " Well you maybe right ... but believing in a God just makes me feel better " to which I reply " NOT believing in a god makes ME feel better". We usually end it there.
I completely understand Cosmicc. I still feel like my career path might be jeopardized if I were to ever openly discuss the fact that I'm an atheist at work. When I was growing up, I had to choose between hiding it or having no friends. When I was in college, I had to either lie or skip the social life which unfortunately, was centered around religious-themed fraternities at my university. Now as a professional, I have to choose between career advancement and honesty.
Anyone who thinks that discrimination of atheists is a think of the past is seriously naive.
After working 40+ years I don't ever remember a conversation among my workers about what my faith was.
Wow, that's unusual. I've worked for a handful of big US companies as well as internationally and I come across it all the time. Perhaps I am more tuned in to it since I'm almost always in the minority.
I sit across a cubical wall from a woman who talks about her pastor and Jesus all the time. But it's only fair. The other office atheist and I often chat about his humanist activities. He's an older man who spent most of his life as an evangelical missionary. Now he's probably the most militant atheist I know.
I've seen it happen.
When you eliminate all Christian based holidays (i.e. Saturday, Sunday, Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter – i.e. every holy day and spelled holiday), THEN and ONLY then can you claim that you don't believe in God. So, until you're working 7 days a week, 365 days a year, don't talk about how there is no God to celebrate. In the mean time, those who believe in God and Christ can relax this holiday and thank God for the gift of his son to pay for our short-comings.
That's quite a load of foolishness, Live4Him.
When you stop using the days of the week Tiwsday (Tuesday), Odinsday (Wednesday), Thorsday (Thursday), Friggasday (Friday) or Saturnsday (Saturday), then you can claim that you don't believe in the pagan gods.
The name doesn't mean anything, but rather what you do with that day. And, I work those days rather than celebrating the pagan's day. Are you working today (Sunday), Christmas, etc. to a 7-days a week, 365 days a year? Or do you take time off to celebrate a holyday – regardless of the significance of that celebration?
Sorry. You can't deny your paganism. Even Sunday, your day of rest is named for the Sun.
My goodness. A day off is a day off. I think you're overthinking this one.
One doesn't have to celebrate any day off.
@tallulah13 : Sorry. You can't deny your paganism. Even Sunday, your day of rest is named for the Sun
It is a holyday celebrating Christ's resurrection. The names of the week came before the Christian influence.
@Maddy : One doesn't have to celebrate any day off
Then why don't you get back to work?
Why should I? I deserve my days off.
Where on earth do you get off trying to be the arbiter of who deserves a day off or not?
And I don't live to work, I work to live.
Goodness. What a strange line of thinking.
My argument is just as logical as yours. We live in a secular society and our holidays are more cultural than religious. That's why Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny get more emphasis than Jesus, and Valentine's Day is about lovers, not the saint that gave it it's name. Thanksgiving is more about eating and football and Sunday is still named after the sun. It's not even the sabbath for all christian denominations.
Humans like holidays. The name doesn't matter, nor does the origin. If origins did matter, then christians would not celebrate Christmas or Easter because both are based on pagan holidays.
What utter nonsence, Some of the holidays have their origins based in one religion or anther but we can all use them for whatever purpose we want. There is no need to hodl to your religious versions.
Of course it's nice to know you are a pagan celebrating Christmas
My holyidays are to remember and to celebrate my God.
live 4 him..just as well ..this being craves adulation. hes keeping score so dont miss a day or its no eternity for you. How long is eternity again? is it longer or shorter than infinity?
Good for you.
I don't have any gods other my wife the goddess.
@JWT : I don't have any gods other my wife the goddess.
When do you think she will let you down?
She never has in the last 30 years nor do I see her doing it in the next 30.
@JWT : She never has in the last 30 years nor do I see her doing it in the next 30.
Of course she will – she's human. Just like you will let her down.
And so what ?
I think the big question here is when did your own spouse let you down, Live4Him? You sound bitter and jealous. I bet is just burns you when atheists have great relationships.
I am honestly sad for you if you actually think that was a logical point. I don't know how I can eliminate days from the calendar, but I most definitely don't believe in any gods, so you're irrefutably wrong.
I never said to eliminate the day, but rather you should be working that day instead.
So Christianity is now being defined by how many days are to be worked? And nobody but Christians deserve days off?
If I don't work on the days that my company gives me off, I can't claim I don't believe in a god? You seriously think that is a logical conclusion? Like I said, if I do, I feel bad for you. However, I suspect you're just saying such ridiculousness to get a rise out of the rest of us.
@Jake : If I don't work on the days that my company gives me off
They give you those days off because of the Christian influence upon our nation. Prior to Christ and the Passover, people worked every day of the year – except when inclement weather prevented working in the fields. So, if you really abhor celebrating God, then you should get a second job and work those days as well.
Mostly, the days off are the result of unions fighting for the 40 hour work week.
It has nothing to do with "Christian influence".
Right and if we didn't have those days off, we'd have other national holidays. In the UK for example, their holidays are just called Bank Holidays.
You seem to be unaware that our founders were essentially atheists.
@Jake : Right and if we didn't have those days off, we'd have other national holidays.
A holyday is still celebrating some God – else it wouldn't be called a holyday.
Meanings change with time. AT one time the days off may have been given for the religious significance to the majoity of the population. But we can use those days for whatever we want There is no requirement then or now to treat them as religious days.
hol·i·day
ˈhäliˌdā/
noun
1.
a day of festivity or recreation when no work is done.
"December 25 is an official public holiday"
synonyms: day of observance, festival, feast day, fête, fiesta, celebration, anniversary, jubilee; More
characteristic of a holiday; festive.
modifier noun: holiday
"a holiday atmosphere"
BRIT.
a vacation.
"I spent my summer holidays on a farm"
synonyms: vacation, break, rest, respite, recess; More
verbBRIT.
verb: holiday; 3rd person present: holidays; past tense: holidayed; past participle: holidayed; gerund or present participle: holidaying
1.
spend a holiday in a specified place.
"he is holidaying in Italy"
Now, I understand that the entomology of the word may have stemmed from holy day; that isn't how it is used today.
One may do what one wishes with a day they are off.
If someone else doesn't approve/like it, too bad.
Congrats on the dumb post of the day!
Let's go with your line of thinking. You shouldn't celebrate Christmas at all because it is stolen from the Pagan winter solstice. And so is the immaculate conception, rising from the dead, ascension to heaven and many more.
I am an atheist, and I go Christmas shopping, listen to Christmas carols and say Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays. Now I know Happy Holidays is not Politically Correct amongst the rabid War on Christmasers, but Christmas Eve, New Years Eve,Day are holidays which is why I add Happy Holidays. I never waged a war on Christmas and none of the atheists I know have waged a war on Christmas. I even enjoy seeing Nativity scenes, but wait, I am a liberal atheist, and therefore according to Palin, Hannity, and FOX News an evil doer who fights tirelessly to try to ruin Christmas for billions of children, so the narrative goes. Before OpEd writers start to whine, maybe they should choose their groups more wisely. I don't go to an Atheist meeting place, nor do I subscribe to any atheist news letters, because that seems to be part of the point, not joining a clique that thinks they are better than everyone else, like Palin, Hannity and the schmucks at FOX News. I have been on the business end of some rude atheists that seem to be just as rude and intolerant as Hannity, Palin, Beck, Limbaugh and the rest of the FOX News schmucks, and I tend to give them their come-uppins as well. Go ahead and practice whatever religion makes you happy, just don't use it as a hammer to beat people over the head, and especially don't commit acts of hatred in the name of religion and don't be a hypocrite, the lowest form of life in the universe, like Hannity, Palin, Beck and the schmucks at FOX News.
Happy holyday to you too.
Well said.
We'll put..