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 The group American Atheists has placed this billboard in New York City's Times Square.
December 21st, 2013
10:22 AM ET
Why atheists should quit the 'War on Christmas’Opinion by Chris Stedman, special to CNN
In recent years, one organization, American Atheists, has claimed the mantle of prime atheist promoter of the tired “War on Christmas” narrative. This year, they ushered in the season with an electronic billboard in New York City’s Times Square carrying the message: “Who needs Christ during Christmas? Nobody.” The word "Christ" is crossed out, just in case their message wasn't clear enough. The American Atheists maintain that their latest entry in the annual “War on Christmas” saga is a message to other atheists that they are not alone. In a recent Fox News appearance, American Atheists President Dave Silverman said, “The point that we’re trying to make is that there’s a whole bunch of people out there for whom religion is the worst part of Christmas, but they go to church anyways, and we’re here to tell them they don’t have to.” While that intention is important and admirable, very few people—atheist or theist—seem to interpret the message as welcoming to anyone. Many of the responses I’ve seen have been vitriolic and disturbingly anti-atheist. Which raises the question: If the goal truly is to reach isolated atheists, why does the advertisement read as a dig at Christians? A better billboard for American Atheists’s stated aim might read: “Don’t celebrate Christmas? You’re not alone.” As atheists become more visible in our society, the entire “War on Christmas” back-and-forth feels ugly and unnecessary. Worse still, it seems to do little more than offer ammunition to those claiming atheists are just mean-spirited grinches. Bill O’Reilly—one of the major “War on Christmas” soldiers—made that clear when he and I discussed the “War on Christmas” a couple of weeks ago. Let’s not kid ourselves: There is no war on Christmas. We live in a culture that privileges stories of conflict, so it’s understandable that this narrative would gain traction—with or without billboards. Much of this narrative is a manifestation of religious fears about our increasingly secular society, and it reflects widespread anxieties about atheists and religious differences. But it doesn’t reflect reality. Rather, as religious diversity in the U.S. has become more recognizable, Americans have largely broadened their approach to this time of year. According to new data from the Public Religion Research Institute, the percentage of Americans who prefer the inclusive “Happy Holidays” or “Season’s Greetings” has now exceeded the percentage that prefers “Merry Christmas.” It’s not that Christmas is under attack; instead, our society is becoming better at embracing its religious diversity and challenging the notion that a single majority religion should dominate public expressions of belief. So why does the “War on Christmas” narrative persist? Based on how much play they give it each December, the “War on Christmas” narrative seems to be good for Fox News ratings. And American Atheists has openly admitted that it is good for their pocketbooks, as their talk show appearances bring in a swell of donations. Consider this from a recent profile of Silverman: “Silverman’s notorious anti-Christmas billboards and subsequent TV appearances have breathed new life into American Atheists and are often followed by an uptick in subscribers and donations. ... According to Silverman, the primary objective of the billboards is to get invitations to talk shows.” In other words: American Atheists and Fox News - alongside conservatives like Sarah Palin - seem to have discovered a mutually beneficial relationship. But does this relationship benefit atheists more broadly? Does it accurately represent the sentiments of nontheists in this country? Does it improve atheist-theist relations? Does it lessen the widespread stigma and distrust that exists between atheists and theists, which enables atheist marginalization across the U.S.? Does it invite Christians to think critically about religious privilege? Many atheists, myself included, suspect that there are more effective approaches to tackling these important issues. To start, atheists can build positive relationships with believers to humanize our communities and educate one another about our differences. That’s something that billboards, for all of their flash and fundraising capabilities, likely won’t accomplish. Atheists face real marginalization in the U.S., and it should be robustly challenged. But we also have good tidings and great joy to offer—important contributions to the public square that are currently being drowned out by attention-grabbing billboards claiming “nobody” needs Christ in Christmas. In the spirit of generosity, compassion, and kindness so often associated with this time of year, let’s ditch the billboards and build relationships of goodwill. Chris Stedman is the Assistant Humanist Chaplain at Harvard University, Coordinator of Humanist Life for the Yale Humanist Community, and author of "Faitheist: How an Atheist Found Common Ground with the Religious." You can follow him on Twitter at @ChrisDStedman. The views expressed in this column belong to Stedman. soundoff (5,210 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 Next »
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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(CNN) - The “War on Christmas:” what — or who—is it good for?
It would seem that the story of Jesus is more like the story of the billionaire who temporarily lives as a common person. At the end of the day he is still a billionaire and can go back to his mansion as he chooses, or in Jesus' case immortal, so in dying sacrificed nothing.
PET scans can be useful. Get one.
Band Aids can be useful for covering small wounds. Use them appropriately.
I would but I don’t have a dog?
Get it?
That’s a joke.
The loss of personal comfort is a sacrifice.
If Jesus is God, and God is eternal, how does he have a birth date? Wouldn't it be more of a repackaging date?
That is correct, if God is eternal then he was never born and has never died so it's rather funny how Christians celebrate Christmas (birth) and Easter (death) of their God each year.
So many errors, so little time. Do you really believe we celebrate Easter as the "death" of God?
Yes, Easter is the ex-pagan celebration of spring, fertility and the ancient worship of Astarte that has been adopted by Christians to represent the death and resurection of their unkillable eternal God. Funny how they kept the rabbits and eggs from the fertility rights of the pagans. I laugh about it every year.
I know atheists that celebrate Easter with eggs and rabbits.
I know Christians that do not celebrate Easter with eggs and rabbits.
Now, did those atheists steal Easter from the pagans?
I know of none of my atheist friends who celebrate Easter with bunnies and eggs and know of no Christians who don't except maybe the JW's, but for the sake of argument I will concede that if they do then yes, they are also co-opting a pagan holiday.
And the pagans co-opted their holiday from someone else. And this co-opting went on for a long, long time.
And in 20 years people will be co-opting their own versions of Easter or a spring time holiday.
I've never met a Christian that doesn't recognize that some of our American customs and traditions are rooted in our Northern Eurpoean ancestor's traditions.
It is more like some of us just kept our customs and traditions. And some other cultures appreciated and borrowed from them.
Christmas and easter are both co-opted pagan celebrations anyway.
what a joke!
Man's best friend can't laugh so I suppose a growl is the next best thing.
This should be an extra special season for the A&A's now that they have their very own chaplain. They always did appear to be jealous without leadership. Don't grow too fast or the AA slot might not be needed. Enjoy yer thousands of gods myths and jokes and the new status of HAHA's. Humanist Atheists Harvard Agnostics
Pwoblems?? Call home ET, and ask for mom. Be sure and bring up the Dreams from our Fathers tale.
You have evolved;Windows XP ain't ferever, either.
This makes not one iota of sense. You seem to exude lots of hate, however. You must be Christian.
Exudists see hate everywhere. How long you been in that cult??
I'm familiar with your posts. You exude hatred. You exude misogyny. You claim to be Christian. How long have you been so hateful in His name?
there should be no billboards:
If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people!
– House
Aww, that is so adorable. Citing a fictional character to put down those who believe in God.
Way to miss the point. When realize an important point about life and work from the fictional characters in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe I just take the message to heart.
That statement is ironic. People have trouble reasoning with House, he isn't as reasonable as he thinks. His flaws are his tragic downfall.
So answer with a quote from another fictional character.
Get read for a Bible quote! 😉
Oops, "ready".
You'll have to excuse him Go, D.dG. is under the impression that Ad hominem attacks are a form of reason.
The post was not ad hominem, which you would know if you had attempted to prove your point with valid reasoning.
epic fail!
LOLOL
The character House does not actually act reasonable. He certainly thinks he is logical and reasonable, but he actually is deeply flawed, unreasonable at times and does stupid things, like abuse drugs and alcohol.
That is the great irony of it!
Holy wood is a big inclusive tent. That's why they have laugh tracks for the less fortunate.
I don't think anyone REALLY believes in the bible. If they did, they wouldn't be such jerks. They'd be scared to death they'd end up in h.ell.
christians say they believe the bible is the very word of their god, until there is a line that doesn't agree with their lifestyle and they ignore it. How do they cope with the hypocrisy of ignoring the word of god? They use denial.
Christians in America love the consti.tution and all the freedoms it affords them like free speech, until there is an issue where it doesn't agree with their lifestyle and they whine about it. How do they cope with the hypocrisy? They use denial.
"No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says; he is always convinced that it says what he means." – George Bernard Shaw
So what you are saying is that much like yourselves Christians are people who are running on their own opinion.
You could argue that, if they really believed in the Bible, they'd be long past being just jerks and wind up monsters burning suspected witches, stoning adulterers, and outright killing gays, instead of just bullying them into killing themselves. Believe it or not, things sure could get a whole lot worse!
Austin is right! God is warring within the souls of these wretched vile animals that are fornicating in odd ways in our blessed land! The mark has been put upon the land and His return will be soon and swift! If these sinful creature knew what was good for them, they would drop to the ground trembling and beg for His mercy and love! They don't have much time before they face His Almighty judgment, and then it will be too late. They will suffer eternal pain and agony in the cauldron of fire! Amen.
Your glee at the thought of people being tortured is disturbing. Schadenfreude is a mental illness.
I can feel the love of your God working through you.
Nope, that was just gas...
did you forget to take your meds?
Oh this troll definitely forgot his meds...anyone who agrees with Austin can't possibly be all there.
I'm calling poe.
cognitive dissonance:
Mental conflict that occurs when beliefs or assumptions are contradicted by new information. The concept was introduced by the psychologist Leon Festinger (1919–89) in the late 1950s. He and later researchers showed that, when confronted with challenging new information, most people seek to preserve their current understanding of the world by rejecting, explaining away, or avoiding the new information or by convincing themselves that no conflict really exists.
this peculiar human trait has kept religion going through the centuries despite the mountains of evidence proving it's foolishness.
Compartmentalization is an unconscious psychological defense mechanism used to avoid cognitive dissonance, or the mental discomfort and anxiety caused by a person's having conflicting values, cognitions, emotions, beliefs, etc. within themselves.
Compartmentalization allows these conflicting ideas to co-exist by inhibiting direct or explicit acknowledgement and interaction between separate compartmentalized self states.
But but... atheists need God, they need Christmas, and most importantly they need Christians to pick on, mock, belittle, and make sub human... for without these things... (militant) atheists are nothing but miserable, joyless people with no focus to have an US vs Them enemy.
I know a number of militant atheists that are a lot of fun, great family people, community leaders.
I know a lot of regular atheists that are like the people you describe. But just about every militant or staunch anti-theist just seems to only take pleasure in demeaning those they feel or think are less than themselves. Although I'm sure you could flip what I said and the same be said about fundamentalist religionists (made up a word I think).
I think the human characteristics of miserable and joyless is independent of religious belief. They exist in all religions and atheists.
I can't think of any person who takes pleasure in only one thing. Maybe a prisoner in solitary confinement who only has meals to look forward to?? But then it seems he would take pleasure from more than just one flavor he experiences....
I agree with your last statement bostonola.
I am not miserable, I am joyous.
Add that to your belief in the bible and it looks like you are wrong 100% of the time.
Thank you for proving my point... Merry Christmas & Happy New Year.
typical Christian thinking. you were just proven 100% wrong and you think you proved your point.
sorry Micky but I am laughing at you.
doG
You haven't proven a thing. You've just stated your own opinion and haven't backed it up with anything. Your claim that I'm 100% wrong... is that a 100% of the time? Are you sure about that, maybe I'm only 95% wrong. Immaterial. You did exactly what I said militant atheists do... right from the playbook. And nothing new under the Sun. Mocked me... check. Devalued me... check. Do these tactics actually work to deconvert people? I highly doubt it. Who spends hours upon hours on a CNN forum prattling on ad nuaseum to reaffirm that which they don't believe to whom? Maybe to themselves. Probably a mechanism to build some sort of self esteem and that the echos that come back at them in their tribe gives them the fervor to continue their mission. Incidentally, I have no problem of who wants to pay for advertising space and put up whatever message they want. If it gives the American Atheist Association a sense of pride that they have a billboard up during the holiday season... not for me to judge or even care. But as the old saying goes... Pride goes before the fall. And that's the last I will think about this until the new year. After tonight I'll shut my computer down, spend time with family and loved ones. Give and receive presents, then bugger off to Cuba for Hogmany on a beach listing to Latin beats.
You do realize that by saying 100% that you have just failed. Absolutism is a fallacy.
So Absolutism is a fallacy 100% of the time, Gol?
nicely done Captain. 🙂
When you offer no facts, absolutism is a fail. Sorry that you can not or will not accept that.
Did I just hear a big whooshing sound?
No doubt it went right over Cpt. dog's head.
God is warring within our souls.
Leviticus 17:11 ►
For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.
I thought Leviticus was a book meant for Levite priests. What possible significance dies it have fir people who aren't?
Wouldn't that be like expecting people to follow IBM's employee handbook, even though they don't work at IBM?
maddy, good question. I thought the same thing, and upon reading the whole thing, i learned that this was a book about the OT law, and also priests, as well as the account of the festival calenders and the main heritage story of prophetic foreshadowing of the New Covenant, a better covenant.
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
13To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.
15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-20)
So, since you read it, you came up with the conclusion that it is it OT law meant for everyone, and not the Levite priests? Most scholars disagree. Why should I believe you over them? Do you also follow the rules of burnt offerings?
It also says that Moses shall be speaking to the people of Israel.
Again, how is that pertinent to today's folks? We are not people of Israel.
these are deep questions. i could definitely answer them wrong. i am 35 and no scholar, but i think if you asked an elder they would surely answer your questions.
@bostontola the whole thing about the old testament law, may have to do with the law being an issue of purity, and the fact that the devotion to any one sin, must be done away with by the holy spirit. now, we see the dispute between paul and peter over the jewish traditions, and so the key has to be with the new testament promise of the Holy Spirit, who does what the old testament did not. It changes us from within, rather, than simply atoning or being cursed. The Holy Spirit guides us into repentence supernaturally rather than striving to memorize and abide by 3,000 laws.
Maddy, the transition from the old testament to the better New Covenant, reveals that Israel was absolutely supposed to share the laws, and atonement process with the world. and the problem, with Israel, is that instead of living as a light and a vehicle, they were an Idolatrous and backsliding people , as we read about the Pharisees in the New Testament and even in the prophets rebuke over and over in the Old Testament to the people, Israel closed themselves off in pride and arrogance.
If you google "savior of all the world", there are a bunch of references to this. Jesus Christ was the complete essence of God's person and work, to "all men". there are about a hundred or or more verses about this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Uf9cPXO-YI#t=0
And here I've been looking to the 1978 IBM employee handbook for wisdom since I could read... All that time trying to find my terminal to access the mainframe, and now you tell it wasn't high allegory? It was just for people in 1978 who worked for IBM to get access to corporate data!? Arghhh! The insanity!!!!
"The unfortunate thing about them is that one of the things that makes the religion persistent, also makes it static, they have to define their stories as divine truth. Yes some religions are more open, but the big ones are not."
@bostontola
are you open minded to a God, who would have been there in the bronze age? are you open minded to a God who allows people to choose? are you open minded to a God who does provide love to those who are willing to let him heal a "real" evil?
Austin,
Are you open-minded to a God who sent BILLIONS of people to hell BECAUSE they had never heard of him?
you have it totally wrong. do you want a choice in life? do not choose the area designated for the fallen angels. people who have never heard, are not responsible for any choice.
do you want God's love in the form He gives it? do you want life if God is the giver of life??
Austin, In your version of Christianity what happens to the people who never heard of your god?
they would absolutely go to heaven. there is no penalty for this.
Austin,
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
So that is obviously meaningless according to you. Doesn't matter either way.
So why all the missionaries? If we all just stopped telling people about Jesus, everyone would go to Heaven.
@Austin,
If those who have never heard "God's" word are not responsible for making the choice are tey then defaulted into heaven? Does that mean bad people who have never recieved teh word go to heaven too? IF never hearing of the christian religion is a free ticket in, isn't the best thing the church could do to just stop talking and go into complete hiding and silence? That way noone ever hears about it, and everyone gets in. Seems a bit sloppy, but it would be better for everyone n teh long run.
it isn't meaning less to me. i see where you are coming from. it just only pertains as a promise directed to those "who did hear"
everything about God, His word, is a promise set in stone. being just, He can do nothing unjust. and the key here, is understanding that your responsibility and choice, is the freedom that He gives you. It is real. and important.
and Christs prayer "forgive them , they know not what they are doing" , is God's prayer, in human essence, at the time where he was murdered by our sin. This is part of His character. we do not know how this plays out.
but we can as.sume that rejecting God, is a spiritually criminal act. Hell was not created for you. rather the angels who fell, who are liars , killers, and theives, who were created with perfect character. you were not born perfect, but angels were. they dont go through the process of salvation. you have a perfect redeemer.
Austin,
You have come up with the strongest argument EVER in support of ABORTION.
@brc and cal,
this has to do with the amount of glory you will be awarded in heaven, for all eternity. which outweighs this fallen life by infinity.
all who believe are saints, but rewards in heaven do vary. and in turn, your greatest joy, will come from understanding how and why we will sing praise and lift up the name of God, for eternity.
it does not satisfy your sinful flesh at this time. but in glorified bodies, where there is no doubt and lies, and demonic oppression, there is joy.
and if you TRUST in Christ, the Holy Spirit will begin to show you his true glory supernaturally. and when you have a taste of this, nothing will excite you more. do you have a desire to KNOW, the truth about God in a world that supresses your soul, like life under a rock?
Austin,
"they would absolutely go to heaven"
It seems pretty obvious that the most immoral thing you could do is to teach someone aboutmthe Christian god. Not knowing is a guarantee of heaven, and knowing opens you to risk. Any decent god would throw prostletyzers and missionaries into some sort of hell for subjecting people to this kimd of reisk. Aborting a fetus would be the best act, too, that a mother could make for her child.
Austin
"you have it totally wrong"
Have you ever read a Bible or do you just make it all up?
Are there BILLIONS of people who died without ever hearing of God and therefore were sent to hell?
YES or NO?
.
NO WAY
Austin,
Where do the BILLIONS of people who died without ever hearing of God go? Ever hear of John 3:16?
John 3:16
For God So Loved the World
16 “For hGod so loved ithe world,9 jthat he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not kperish but have eternal life.
ok, this verse does say 'whoever believes" and this is simply a promise to those who hear. this does not exclude those who don't. if you are hung up on those who never heard, please know the grace and mercy of God are an abounding promise wrapped up in his "just" attribute.
In the old testament, when he wiped out the world, no one knows how many innocent bystanders were flooded. they did not all perish in the hereafter.
Are you open minded enough to wonder why your all powerful god has a reason to be a jealous god? And jealous of what?
jealous as you would be of your cheating wife...... spiritual adultery and for who? a liar, a thief, and the destroyer.
Considering you believe there are no other god's, it would be more like jealosy over your spouse master bating.
May we all take it for granted that you are a rich man today, Austin ?
i don't follow.....?
You said yesterday that you could easily take the James Randie Foundation;s money. I assumed you had already done so this morning.
i did not say "easily" but I know that the Lord willing, in the face of scrutiny and mocking (as i faced in jail) , that He is might to save the criminals that were around me.
in the least expected neighborhood, or prison, in every nation, peace to all mankind.
I will take the challenge, there is NOTHING, no man no reason, who could erase what He has done in my life and i want everyone to want this supernatural voice.
Austin,
How are you doing about coming up with 10 predictions for 2014 so we can ACTUALLY see if you know what you are talking about?
there is something i could tell you, but i do not want to tell you this, because it would be controversial and im afraid that to the unbeliever it could do the gospel harm. i will just admit that the last 6 months i didn't follow my spiritual gift and i took a leave of absence.
but, here over the next 60 days, i can do what i think i have to to open myself up to where i know the spirit resonates and communicates. to receive this resonating voice, i was before spending 6 plus hours a day in the word, meditating, and it was because i was suffering. this last season, i was working hard labor 75 hrs a week and it really hindered my spiritual concerns to where i became irritable, profane, obscene, and way off.
Austin,
Sorry for the delayed response below, I had a "bad" character string that was hard to find.
I used appeti.te. Shame on me.
ok bro a few min......
Humans are able to "see" a tiny fraction of 1% of the electromagnetic spectrum. We hear a fraction of the audio range of sound. We smell a tiny fraction of the substances out there. The portion we can naturally detect is the result of a trade between survival value and biologic cost. Our perception of reality is based on a tiny fraction of the information out there. We also have limited ability to accurately perceive long time periods or vast distances, since those things had little survival value.
So when humans started to ask big questions like why are we here, our basis was distorted. We didn't know what we didn't know. Thousands of beautiful, poetic creation myths were developed. They helped those groups focus on what was important in their micro environments. They were more effective than groups without them so they dominated. But the creation myths were not true, even if they were effective.
In just the last few centuries, science has answered vastly more questions about our universe than in the scores of millennia prior to that. We have expanded our ability to "see" across the electromagnetic spectrum, audio range, etc., look back in time and across vast distances and to the microscopic world.
To cling to Bronze Age world views is hard to fathom. The spell of those stories has strong allure. They clearly are effective in focusing their groups to achieve at a high level, but that also doesn't make them true. The unfortunate thing about them is that one of the things that makes the religion persistent, also makes it static, they have to define their stories as divine truth. Even when they conflict with directly observable facts. Galileo loved the church but they arrested him for saying the sun was the center of our system. We still have similar things going on today, luckily the church doesn't have the power it once had.
If the religions allowed adaption to new learning, there would be much less tension between believers of the various religions and with atheists. But alas, that is not the way it is. Yes some religions are more open, but the big ones are not.
Happy Holidays.
this is a very appealing thought. I hope you will look at that from more than one perspective and leave the door open to the true possibilities that the "real truth" would be made known for the good of the world, asap.
Austin,
My door is always open. I have unlimited curiosity and need for learning. I have explored many religions, western and eastern, there has been no lack of effort. While I have found many human truths in every religion, I have found no supernatural truth. I respect your choice and sincerity and I'm moved by your concern. Merry Christmas.
Bostontola, I love you . and I will pray for you ever time i pray. May the Lord find your door today!
I sense a celebration!
I am open minded when it comes to "real truth" but real truth requires real evidence of which there is none for a god.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ADRGF-vLuY
Oh, come on. that's not nice.
It has red and green in there....
psychological warfare is a tactic used in the cold war and it did not start there. If Satan is real, do yo think He would try to discredit God's plan of salvation for you, through maligning the Messiah with people like Adolf Hitler?
what was up with they fake guy doing the sign language? there are these types in this world who do the same with "religious dead Christianity".
One Christian's Christianity is the next Christian's "religious dead Christianity".
That man was mentally ill, Austin. Are you conflating mentally I'll with Christianity?
*mentally ILL. DYAC
I think the atheists and religious people should coexist in harmony. I don’t have a problem with you all being atheists.
It may have more to do with values than beliefs. For example, I am a hypocrite. I would never be friends with someone who thought that Hitler was a great guy and he was right to torture millions of people, but I am good friends with many people who think that god is a great guy when he makes millions of humans and animals suffer a horrible death by drowning (an entire planet's worth) and when he is going to make me and many of my friends and family experience eternal torture in a pit of never ending fire.....when he could just eliminate such a possibility.
So, I allow myself that hypocrisy. Maybe I shouldn't to really be true to my own convictions.
I don’t feel that Noah’s ark is supposed to be taken literally, personally.
There is nothing about the account in the bible that implies it should be taken figuratively. Remember, the goal was to eradicate the evil god was witnessing on the earth. Then you have the "new" lineage of the Davidic/Messianic line. No, the bible and Jesus himself in the NT demand that a believer consider the flood an actual event.
Interesting that you remain silent on the larger point, though.
I thought Jesus referred to it in a figurative sense. What is the larger point you’re referring to?
It goes into a lot of depth on exactly how to construct the boat....seems an odd point to make if the boat was never really supposed to be built.
Yes. That part is a little troublesome for me.
But, what’s the big deal if it is supposed to be taken literally or not? I don’t stay up at night worrying about this stuff.
Arnold,
No, Jesus did not talk about the flood in a figurative sense. Read his words on the matter again to see for yourself. And NOTHING about the account in Genesis points to any interpretation except an entirely literal one, and NOTHING about the bible's other mentions of the flood imply anything but a literal interpretaion.
If you can't figure out the larger point I made, then I don't think you would take away much from a conversation about it, but I admit that it's very hard for me to believe that you don't see it. Perhaps try again?
when you say "to really be true" this hits the nail on the head. God wants us to persevere and "to really be true" . through choice, and then you have to TRUST. you can believe, but trusting in Him is harder when you take a look around.
He did flood the world. and this likewise, the birth of Christ is a fight against sin.
He is savior and peace, for ALL men, for ALL the world. and the flood you can justify by your understanding of the wars that were fought to forge a country with freedom and rights.
but we can not free ourselves from the law of gravity. if you jump you will fall. Jehovah Shammah, The Lord is There
May I ask why you feel the flood should be taken literally?
Arnod,
Presumably because it would be ridiculous to think someone wrote a manual in which some parts were meant to be taken literally, others metaphorically, and didn't leave instructions as to which section was to be taken which way. Such a writer would wash out of any decent technical writing program.
well because the bible is a prophetic supernatural revelation, and the flood is no different than one single divine prophechy, no different than the resurrection, and no different than the fact that evil exists supernaturally.
I have to agree with Austin, they are all the same, as in none of them happened or are real. I'm sure that is what he mean.
If you’re looking at it as a manual, I don’t understand why some things could or could not be taken figuratively. It’s been a while since I read the story of the flood but God was punishing people, which would be a lesson to everyone.
ion the end however, God created a place for the angels who fell, as a punishment. He did not intend for you to reject Him and follow the God of this world Satan. people say "God punishes". He only punishes those who are saved with sanctifying judgment. but if you reject God, you choose to let Satan punish you.
God is Holy, you MUST accept your sanctification to be in the Father's Holy presence. Jesus is the ONLY filter.
Leviticus 17:11 ►
For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.
Austin, Not one single sane person would choose eternal punishment, so it is only by witholding information that anyone could end up making choices that would lead him or her to that position. Which would make such a god a jerk.
Do you feel i will go to hell if I dont believe the flood is true?
> He did not intend for you to reject Him and follow the God of this world Satan.
I thought he was all knowing...
Christianity......... one contradiction after another.
I would be willing to be patient and pray that theists will have the supernatural reality of God and truth revealed in love, grace and mercy......before it is too late for their eternal calling.
Premise: All the pious and good, religious dead, have thus received eternal life.
Test: Where is even one single real person, who by the premise is living, who has had the kindness to retun to earth after death, and re-assure their loved ones, that they are OK.
At this time of the year, I send out a reminder to all my friends:
Jesus wasn't born, he was written!
hey i have experienced a supernatural gift. this is no joke and i have no religious motivation. just telling the truth.
Acts 2:17
17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
why would you post a quote written by someone in the same cult as you? How can that possibly prove anything except mass delusion?
the supernatural experiences that i have personal data on, is my own evidence and proof. I have experienced the gift of prophetic visions. these were not intended to lead anyone else other than enabling me to testify that God is alive.
once this began, He thoroughly began supernaturally revealing Himself to me through my opening up to the bible, which i previously hated. it happened. now what?
The Bible: proof that gullible people will believe any dumbass thing that you tell them
that is a fair as.sumption, but what if you were passionately curious about what I am saying, and then God supernaturally showed you what He showed me? .....that the bible is a type of intercession, or door way, to something far beyond the natural science.
I would say this...
Religion: the word of man trying to convince other men that it is the word of God
or
Being 'Born-Again' Linked to More Brain Atrophy: Study http://www.philly.com/philly/health/132456883.html
or
"I ain't lookin' for help from on-high. That's a long wait for a train don't come." – Malcolm Reynolds, “Serenity"
well what if God could show you otherwise? would you want Him too if He were real for you own well being?
""I ain't lookin' for help from on-high. That's a long wait for a train don't come." – Malcolm Reynolds, “Serenity"
love the movie and love the quote.
i hate the whole "waiting to die" thing christians do. it kindof freaks me out, i never know when they may jump from a building. XD
People have been seeing visions since written history began....why do you think it's the last days, when it's always happened?
The King Who Exalts Himself Daniel Ch 11......
vs 36- the end of chapter.
also the fact that there are 13 million Jews in the world and they, 6 million anyway, are back in a section of their plot of land.
More stuff that was written.
So where's the "supernatural gift" you told us about!?
do you want eternal life? do you want God's love? is it possible that your views are confined to a flesh that is not all knowing? and lastly , would you accept God's love if it was delivered in supernatural form in a personal way? do you want to hear the voice of God?
1) do you want eternal life?
No. As romantic a notion as that might be, eternity is a very long time. I might like another 100 years or so, but really, after that it would get mighty boring.
2) do you want God's love?
Which god? Who's definition of love? If your only point of reference for what love is is the bible, you could well have the equivalent of battered woman's syndrome, equating abuse and degradation for love.
3) is it possible that your views are confined to a flesh that is not all knowing?
Possible? I never claimed to be all knowing, so....not sure where you're going with that. You claim a personal experience that led you to what you believe. I have had personal experiences that led me away from that very same belief. Are they both real? Are neither real? Who is to judge?
4) and lastly , would you accept God's love if it was delivered in supernatural form in a personal way?
There is no supernatural. There is only nature. That which we perceive as "super" natural is only that which we can not yet define...but it is not outside of nature. To think it is is to deceive yourself.
5) do you want to hear the voice of God?
Generally, those that hear the voice of god are deemed mentally unstable, at least if they go around talking about it.
Just from a logical perspective, re your point no.4 -your premise is that what you perceive as "super" natural is only that which we cannot yet define – how can you know it is not outside of nature? Or that to think otherwise is self-deception? Seems like you are making an article of faith of your "naturalism" or "Materialism" there. A logical response to not knowing would be to keep an open mind.
To be fair, as a Pagan, it is a part of what I believe, I concur with you there. Nature is what is real, what is in existence. I believe that includes everything, even that which we might call "super" natural.
It also conforms to my own personal experience, and seeing as that is where this started, I thought it pertinent.
@CAR: " A logical response to not knowing would be to keep an open mind."
i would say the logical response to dealing with "super-natural" phenomenon would be to:
1) eliminate the possibility that it's a hoax.
2) attempt to gather secondary witness reports
3) see if what occured can be manifested again by repeating the very same conditions under observible conditions.
4) if all else fails seek more knowledgible experts to ensure it was drug induced or psychoological.
5) if nothing can be gained either way, then it may be a true "super-natural" event..........or you're just insane. XD
Why would I want to spend eternity with a being I fear??
Exactly. Or one who calls "perfect and just" the eternal torture of millions of my ancestors and fellow human beings?
How do you know that to be true?
He gets these "feelings" sounds like hard evidence to me.. LOL.
How about we agree not to call anything that doesn't involve bombs, missiles, tanks and guns a war.
We should just start calling it the necrosis of Christmas.
I prefer to think of Theftmas as a "government sanctioned excuse to have a paid day off" which is all that really matters...
I just wish they could keep the holiday on a Friday or a Monday... Wednesday sucks
a pagan holiday co-opted by a cult.
i have hear though that you can view Christ's birth as a declaration of war on sin and evil. which is within us all.
and so this New Covenant birth, on one of grace, mercy and love, and it is better than the old testament in this way, because like the rainbow was a sign that God would never flood the earth again wiping us out, so too Christ lifts the O.T. curse that was a result of sin.
We are promised grace and mercy , and supernatural sanctification through the gift of the holy spirit. And Christ's kingdom being spiritual, is not a military war. Thank God.
Shut up Meg...
Interesting
Considering that most of the contemporary followers of christ believed he was the messiah promised in the OT, sent to liberate the Jews from oppression and establish an earthly kingdom. The fact that he really didn't accomplish that is why the Jews don't think he is the messiah.
And the fact that christ himself said that he did not come to abolish the old covenant.
He came to fulfill it. it can be hard to follow but if you take the festival calendar from Leviticus, there were ordained festivals passover , unleavened bread festival, first fruits, and feast of weeks. these dates, foreshadowed the passover lamb of God, his death burial and resurrection. for 1400 years from 1400 BC they celebrated passover by sacrificing a lamb, and then while they were doing this that very day Christ was crucified.
this is more than a coincidence. resurrected on first fruits, and ascended on feast of weeks. and the unleavened bread was the rising up out of egypt where they were slaves, ////rising up out of sin.
Austin, how old are you?
Are you really this naive!? All your words are saturated with bible-speak. It's like you can no longer think for yourself.
How in the world does anyone fall for ancient writings being the work of a magical being? Do you have any idea how silly you sound!?
I'd like to see a war on "New Year". The point in the Earths' orbit by wjhich we measure dates is entirely arbitrary.
It's a seasonal thing.
Talullah, i was wondering why you do not want eternal life? did i miss a response yesterday if so i will go back and cut it out and bring it up. also i was wondering, if God does offer a true form of love, would you be interested in receiving this?
such an infantile, fairy tale explanation of the world.
Wrong. Winter Solstice. Naturally, WS can be thought of as an "end/beginning" of the "year."
You might want to look up the word arbitrary.
Why? He didn't use it.
YOu might want to look up the history of the "Winter Solstice." The tilt of the earth aligned with a precise point on its orbit is not arbitrary. It is extremely specific and a direct link in the relationship between the sun, the earth, and gravity.
@Mary, the post he was responding to did use the owrd arbitrary.
@Capt. It is arbitrary because you could just as easily use the summer solstice or an equinox, whatever your arbitrary choice.
Don't be an idiot. Both solstices are extremely unique. Yes, either one could mark the year, but they are both unique events that imply the yearly cycle of the sun around the moon. About as far from "arbitrary" as an event could be since they were noticed and measured by ordinary, untaught humans for dozens of centuries and led us to further scientific discoveries. Don't be an idiot.
I think the war on christmas is silly. I wouldn't mind more people doing research on the holiday and learning its history. I'd like christians to realize that they dont "own" december 25th, and someday it is highly likely that their own version of it will be assimilated into a new version of the winter holiday.
Enjoy the time with family and friends. The food is generally awesome, and you almost always get free booze. Who doesn't like that? I dont care what you cal it. Just dont try to make me feel bad about it because I dont believe a magic baby was born on this day., and do a little research into your own traditions.
The "War on Christmas" exists only in the minds of conservative pundits and those who hang upon their words.
Like faith in no god? Which you also can't prove?
So your saying atheists are just as dumb as you are?
You're
Second
that missing 'd' is what makes me insane...
More so. they're crying for the right to celebrate a religious holiday secularly, where. Nobody cares what they do, they're crying because people call it by its religious name, where nobody cares what they want to call it, and they're crying because they simply want attention, where nobody, again, gives a f-/: what they choose to do with their holiday. In other words, they're dumb enough to get in a self righteous name calling uproar for the simple sake of offending amd being offended over a religious holiday they don't beleive in anyways but still want to celebrate. Meh. You have to be kidding. The overwrought hyperbole here is astounding
Who has faith in no god? Most atheists I know are very open to evidence of gods if it is provided...we're just waiting to see the evidence.
I second that.
I also believe that there is no fluffy pink unicorn orbiting around the moon because all evidence is against it.
your logic is flawed. the onus is on the one making the claim of a god's existence, not on anyone to disprove it.
Just because NASA hasn't seen a "fluffy pink unicorn orbiting around the moon" doesn't mean that it doesn't exist!
Also Jesus and Santa are White! Haven't you heard? I mean everyone has heard... That the bird is the 'Word!'
Noyb, You really need to tell us what you think is the difference between faith and belief? Do you consider all beliefs "faith"? Do you consider lack of belief in leprechauns "faith"? Abstaining from holding a belief about alien life in the universe...faith?
Which day is "no-god's" birthday?
32nd of Novembruary
Tuesday, April 15
July 18th is taken
Logic fail. One can not prove that something does not exist. The burden of proof is on the believer. I can't prove that other people can't read my mind when I sleep. But I don't spend 1 second thinking about whether it's true or not. Why do you suppose that is?
Lack of interest
"cognitive dissonance":
Mental conflict that occurs when beliefs or assumptions are contradicted by new information. The concept was introduced by the psychologist Leon Festinger (1919–89) in the late 1950s. He and later researchers showed that, when confronted with challenging new information, most people seek to preserve their current understanding of the world by rejecting, explaining away, or avoiding the new information or by convincing themselves that no conflict really exists.
this peculiar human trait has kept religion going through the centuries despite the mountains of evidence proving it's foolishness.