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 The group American Atheists has placed this billboard in New York City's Times Square.
December 21st, 2013
10:22 AM ET
Why atheists should quit the 'War on Christmas’Opinion by Chris Stedman, special to CNN
In recent years, one organization, American Atheists, has claimed the mantle of prime atheist promoter of the tired “War on Christmas” narrative. This year, they ushered in the season with an electronic billboard in New York City’s Times Square carrying the message: “Who needs Christ during Christmas? Nobody.” The word "Christ" is crossed out, just in case their message wasn't clear enough. The American Atheists maintain that their latest entry in the annual “War on Christmas” saga is a message to other atheists that they are not alone. In a recent Fox News appearance, American Atheists President Dave Silverman said, “The point that we’re trying to make is that there’s a whole bunch of people out there for whom religion is the worst part of Christmas, but they go to church anyways, and we’re here to tell them they don’t have to.” While that intention is important and admirable, very few people—atheist or theist—seem to interpret the message as welcoming to anyone. Many of the responses I’ve seen have been vitriolic and disturbingly anti-atheist. Which raises the question: If the goal truly is to reach isolated atheists, why does the advertisement read as a dig at Christians? A better billboard for American Atheists’s stated aim might read: “Don’t celebrate Christmas? You’re not alone.” As atheists become more visible in our society, the entire “War on Christmas” back-and-forth feels ugly and unnecessary. Worse still, it seems to do little more than offer ammunition to those claiming atheists are just mean-spirited grinches. Bill O’Reilly—one of the major “War on Christmas” soldiers—made that clear when he and I discussed the “War on Christmas” a couple of weeks ago. Let’s not kid ourselves: There is no war on Christmas. We live in a culture that privileges stories of conflict, so it’s understandable that this narrative would gain traction—with or without billboards. Much of this narrative is a manifestation of religious fears about our increasingly secular society, and it reflects widespread anxieties about atheists and religious differences. But it doesn’t reflect reality. Rather, as religious diversity in the U.S. has become more recognizable, Americans have largely broadened their approach to this time of year. According to new data from the Public Religion Research Institute, the percentage of Americans who prefer the inclusive “Happy Holidays” or “Season’s Greetings” has now exceeded the percentage that prefers “Merry Christmas.” It’s not that Christmas is under attack; instead, our society is becoming better at embracing its religious diversity and challenging the notion that a single majority religion should dominate public expressions of belief. So why does the “War on Christmas” narrative persist? Based on how much play they give it each December, the “War on Christmas” narrative seems to be good for Fox News ratings. And American Atheists has openly admitted that it is good for their pocketbooks, as their talk show appearances bring in a swell of donations. Consider this from a recent profile of Silverman: “Silverman’s notorious anti-Christmas billboards and subsequent TV appearances have breathed new life into American Atheists and are often followed by an uptick in subscribers and donations. ... According to Silverman, the primary objective of the billboards is to get invitations to talk shows.” In other words: American Atheists and Fox News - alongside conservatives like Sarah Palin - seem to have discovered a mutually beneficial relationship. But does this relationship benefit atheists more broadly? Does it accurately represent the sentiments of nontheists in this country? Does it improve atheist-theist relations? Does it lessen the widespread stigma and distrust that exists between atheists and theists, which enables atheist marginalization across the U.S.? Does it invite Christians to think critically about religious privilege? Many atheists, myself included, suspect that there are more effective approaches to tackling these important issues. To start, atheists can build positive relationships with believers to humanize our communities and educate one another about our differences. That’s something that billboards, for all of their flash and fundraising capabilities, likely won’t accomplish. Atheists face real marginalization in the U.S., and it should be robustly challenged. But we also have good tidings and great joy to offer—important contributions to the public square that are currently being drowned out by attention-grabbing billboards claiming “nobody” needs Christ in Christmas. In the spirit of generosity, compassion, and kindness so often associated with this time of year, let’s ditch the billboards and build relationships of goodwill. Chris Stedman is the Assistant Humanist Chaplain at Harvard University, Coordinator of Humanist Life for the Yale Humanist Community, and author of "Faitheist: How an Atheist Found Common Ground with the Religious." You can follow him on Twitter at @ChrisDStedman. The views expressed in this column belong to Stedman. soundoff (5,210 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 Next »
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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(CNN) - The “War on Christmas:” what — or who—is it good for?
Austin, do you have any logical, thought-out points?
have i out thought God?
my dreams are not logical.
computer
c3 o15 m13 p16 u21 t20 e5 r18 =111
111×6=666
well isn't that speeecial!
Austin,
Yes, it shows that numerology can find all sorts of FOOLISH outcomes. So explain why you multiply by 6.
the church lady said to do it.
"Santa Claus" calculates out the same.
So , naturally, you would do anything that some cross- dressing comedic actor says to do in a comedy sketch...okay. Why don't you emulate the famous Santa/Satan sketch?
@bostontola
we are going to be invaded by a foreign military, and there is going to be biological warfare upon our cattle and bird industries in the midwest. i had these visions, for example...the cows were doing cartwheels meaning mad cow
mad cow in iowa
Did you eat some tainted beef, Austin?
Oh, no foreign military will invade the US. We'd blow them out of the water first.
maybe its nato coming from Africa
Austin
"we are going to be invaded by a foreign military, and there is going to be biological warfare upon our cattle and bird industries in the midwest."
Fail. Fail. Fail.
Got any that work? Any for 2014.
Do you even know what NATO stands for, Austin? Hint; NATO isn't a country, in Africa or otherwise.
A = 1
1 + 332 x 2 =- 666
B = 2
2 + 331 x 2 = 666
C = 3
3 + 663 = 666
666 – 0 = 666
SO WHAT??
"1 + 332 x 2 = 666"
"2 + 331 x 2 = 666"
Both of those are false if you follow the standard order of operations. Multiplication should be done first.
1 + (332 x 2)
1 + (664)
665
2 + (331 x 2)
2 + (662)
664
The birth of Jesus is a supernatural war against sin, and evil. There is no war involved until his return.
can you imagine if the bible did have a doctrine of Jihad? no it does not. Christians are called to be "Christ like."....
suffering for the chance to give the gift in mercy and grace.
Austin
"can you imagine if the bible did have a doctrine of Jihad?"
Easily. It's called the Old Testament. Read all of God's commands to kill people.
You are a bit incorrect because jihad goes outside their faith to combat evil. The Torah's laws are more focused on the internal conditions of the early Jewish people.
If you are looking for the closest thing to jihad in Christianity, I would suggest the Book of Revelation. In that book you will find a war involving faith.
Hurherald,
“Whoever does any work on a holy day - put to death”
“anyone who blasphemes - stone him.”
“worship other gods - stone the guilty ones to death”
“stubborn and rebellious son - stone him to death.”
“man is found lying with a married woman - both of them shall die”
“virgin engaged to another man and he lies with her - stone them to death”
“Whoever strikes his father or his mother - put to death”
"Anyone who says cruel things to his father or mother - put to death.”
“anyone who curses his father or his mother - put to death”
“man who commits adultery with another man's wife - they shall be put to death.”
"man or woman who is a medium or a fortune-teller - stone them to death"
From the Quran? Nope. From the Bible
@Observer- what's your point?
I never said there was no violence in the Torah. I merely pointed out that the Torah wasn't the best comparisson to jihad. Jihad from the personal standpoint is a struggle to become righteous. That would be better compared to the NT because it deals with the eternal soul becoming sinless.
Jihad as I feel you are leaning toward is the external Jihad that involves fighting those against the Islamic faith. Again, this does not work well with the Torah because the laws of the Torah were aimed toward the Israelite people specifically.
Your odd little notion that jihad=any violence=Torah is very flawed.
Hurherald,
You haven't mentioned the large number of identical violent laws from the Bible and used by radical Muslims.
I don't think that is a requirement to make the point I made.
these were laws for the Jews, and for atonement. and lucky for us, we have the bible AND the Holy Spirit. the old testament people did not have the Holy Spirit. they were under the curse of the sin, unless atoned for.
now the New Covenant is a better covenant because the Holy Spirit sanctifies us from within. and we are extended the mercy and grace of God, who paid for sin with His life.
Austin,
Yes. Fortunately more intelligent people today don't use God's original commands for most of our laws.
are you referring to the ten commandments?
"more intelligent " is absolutely false. we have more knowledge and less wisdom, and hate to say it, less intelligence.
Austin,
If we followed God's original commands we'd be constantly killing people for the long list of reasons God gave. We'd have slavery and beat slaves and children.
Yes we are MUCH WISER for not following God's original commands for man.
ok but what you need to understand is sin, and the murderous devil, and then that staring all the way back in leviticus the foreshadowing and prophecy of the messiah was in full form. isaiah 53, and even Genesis referred to the triune God. and this is all a finished work in Christ, the human essence of Gods love, grace and mercy.
the sanctification of Israel and the strict laws, was all about the old testament vehicle that pointed to the Christ, and the work of the Holy Spirit.
the new testament is the better covenant, God's supernatural expression of His supernatural sanctification /salvation, and HIs forgiveness and love.
The only ppl that can know the truth for sure is the ppl who have accepted God and his son Jesus Christ and made him a part of your everyday life... ppl make mistakes everyday,dont make the mistake of not getting to know our lord and savior Jesus Christ.. for those of you that want to take Christ out of Christmas,just remember its Christ birthday and if your not going to celebrate that why celebrate at all? MERRY CHRISTMAS ..
All those poor Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Buddhists, Taoists, etc. They all will burn. Your God is very inefficient at saving souls, less than a third of all souls are saved. Given the stakes, shouldn't God be better than that? Pretty poor performance for an omnipotent, omniscient, omniloving God. Very disappointing.
God gives us a choice to follow him and also warns us not to be deceived by false teachers.. man has took Gods words and used it for their own gain.. all religions will agree on one thing "God" and for the people who choose not to look for him because its to much trouble for them,God tells us whats going to happen in the end,and even if the end of the world doesn't come in your life time,when you die its the end of the world for you.... seek for the right way to God and you will find it
Not true, some religions have no God (Buddhism), others have multiple Gods. The Abrahamic God is jealous.
your right.. i haven't been keeping up with all the religions,as i stated in my first comment people make mistakes and im only human
Three good statements
Science is knowledge without absolute certainty, religion is absolute certainty without knowledge or evidence.
Source unknown
Science creates airplanes, religion flies them into buildings.
Source unknown
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca
"I belong to the group of scientists who do not subscribe to a conventional religion but nevertheless deny that the universe is a purposeless accident. Through my scientific work I have come to believe more and more strongly that the physical universe is put together with an ingenuity so astonishing that I cannot accept it merely as a brute fact. There must, it seems to me, be a deeper level of explanation. Whether one wishes to call that deeper level 'God' is a matter of taste and definition."
- Paul Davies
I don't think you can be up here and look out the window as I did the first day and see the Earth from this vantage point, to look out at this kind of creation and not believe in God. To me, it's impossible–it just strengthens my faith. I wish there were words to describe what it's like. ...truly awesome.
- John Glenn
Knowing the plumbing of the universe, intricate and awe-inspiring though that plumbing might be, is a far cry from discovering its purpose.
- Gerald L. Schroeder,
"Three good statements"
They actually aren't.
"Science is knowledge without absolute certainty, religion is absolute certainty without knowledge or evidence."
Unless it's evolution, then the scientists are absolutely certain. I've known many religious people filled with uncertainty.
Verdict: It was a stupid saying.
"Science creates airplanes, religion flies them into buildings."
Never saw a religion fly anything. Seen religious people fly planes perfectly though.
Verdict: another stupid saying
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
How quaint to call them common. But to Seneca, everyone on these blogs would be considered "common". And not all "wise" people regard religion as false.
Verdict: another stupid and very va gue statement.
"Never saw a religion fly anything. Seen religious people fly planes perfectly though."
Seen religion be the REASON for people to fly planes into buildings.
Verdict: another stupid saying
Men can use anything to justify their bad behavior. Only a fool would blame religion as being a unique cause for such bad behavior.
Hurherald
"Men can use anything to justify their bad behavior. Only a fool would blame religion as being a unique cause for such bad behavior"
Religion was the motivating factor in the 9/11 attacks. Are you actually calling anyone a fool?.
"Are you actually calling anyone a fool?."
Yes..anyone that would try to imply that religion is a unique cause for violence, as if men never used greed, polictics, science, power or aquisition of property to do violence.
You are wrong.
Scientists are not certain about anything. They have varying degrees of confidence, evolution is near the top. Scientists aren't even certain about gravity. Science is not in the certainty business, religion is. They are the only ones selling Truth, absolute rules and absolute reward/punishment. People may not be certain but dogma is certain/absolute.
The second statement uses literary license, obviously science doesn't create airplanes, engineers do. Science discovers the principles that engineers use to create. Religion was the motivator for those people who flew into the WTC.
"for those people who flew into the WTC."
And thus you agree that people, not religion, flew into the WTC.
Do you think religion is any more to blame for bad behavior among people then how people use science, wealth, power or ideology?
Hurherald
"Do you think religion is any more to blame for bad behavior among people then how people use science, wealth, power or ideology?"
No.
But none of those others resulted in people intentionally flying airplanes into buildings, which was the ORIGINAL statement..
"But none of those others resulted in people intentionally flying airplanes into buildings, which was the ORIGINAL statement."
The original statement also said science created planes and as one commentor mentioned, that was incorrect too.
I am sorry, but you seem to be trying to peg religion as worse in some way in regards to planes crashing. I do not see it. Planes were used to firebomb towns in WWII and no religion was needed for that.
Hurherald,
Did you not get the point about literary license?
Do you think religion is any more to blame for bad behavior among people then how people use science, wealth, power or ideology?
Wealth and power are strong motivators for bad behavior. Science is not a motivator for bad behavior (other than some minor scientific fraud cases). Science does enable bad people to do bad things, usually motivated by religion, wealth, or power.
Hurherald,
Here was the ORIGINAL STATEMENT: "Science creates airplanes, religion flies them into buildings."
Please read it THIS TIME. Nothing there about firebombs or anything else you want to SWITCH to.
please bostontola, did you know about the donald rumsfeld press conference on sept 10 saying how the pentagon was missing 2.3 trillion dollars, and the next day the thing hit there where all those records were kept?
and the silverstein new insurance plan for 15 million that paid 7 billion?
@bostontola, i disclosed a few visions above this thread
there is nothing in the new testament that promotes Jihad.
Austin,
No, I don't remember that.
ok go to youtube and type in jesse ventura "the pentagon"
and he may be wrong about the plane, but it has the tape of the trumsfeld press conference. rumsfeld was being interrogated by high ranking officials and he recommended that the books be investigated by an agency outside the government for lack of trust.
also bust reacted, or erased, 28 pages of the 911 commission report. and about a week ago, rupert murdock, released an article on the drudge report that disclosed that part of the 28 pages missing said that the funding of the terrorists was not, other rogue terrorists, but in fact, the state government of saudi arabia.
these people are in business with the bush's.
"Science is not a motivator for bad behavior"
I would disagree, mostly because the difference from being a motivator and an enbabler is a fine line. There have been those in history that wanted to validate their version of science and were willing to also use it to justify their actions. Project T-4 comes to mind and other eugenic projects.
Sorry Observer, but anyway you want to peg it....religion isn't any worse than any other motivator used by man to justify bad behavior. Blaming religion for the actions of idiots is like blaming a gun for a massacre.
Hurherald,
The 911 attacks would not have occurred if there were no religious differences between us.
Fantasize all you want. I deal with REALITY.
Observer- "The 911 attacks would not have occurred if there were no religious differences between us."
They wouldn't have occurred without people from Asia.
They wouldn't have occurred without people that were men.
And who is "us"? Last I checked we had Muslims in the US. Could it be that you are mixing culture with religion like they do over in that region of the world? Oh but don't let that little factual nugget ruin your fantasy of the situation. You want the whole of 911 to be about religion...pure religious reasons that isn't tainted by politics or ethnicity, Sorry kid, it doesn't work that way though.
This is a nice piece by Chris Stedman, but the t.tle is bad and I suspect the Daniel Burke (Belief Blog editor) has something to do with that.
"Why atheists should quit the 'War on Christmas’" is very misleading – though no doubt it generates lot of 'clicks'.
Better would be "What do Fox News and the 'American Atheists' organization have in common?"
They both benefit from fueling the "War on Christmas" myth – to the detriment of everyone else.
.
Believers should offer some PROOF. NONE so far.
i cant give you proof but i can tell you how to get it
There is no proof that could make the athiest fundies believe.
Hurherald
"There is no proof that could make the athiest fundies believe."
Completely THOUGHTLESS. God could take less than 5 seconds to announce his existence to the world.
Maybe so, but what about atheists?
Only because there is no proof, as in real evidence that would stand up to the scientific method or the justice system's rules of evidence. In any other domain, silly *beliefs* such as those of religious cults would have been discarded centuries ago.
I find you amusing Observer. Mostly because you ignore evidence that is right in front of you.
Now then, as far as you are concerned, science has basically shown that there is nothing supernatural in the universe right? Yet with all the evidence right before their eyes....religious people won't accept it right?
I propose that if even a being made of light riding on an invisible pink unicorn throwing teapots of bliss down on your heads came up and declared himself God.....there would still be those athiests that would probably spout off some Arthur C. Clarke stuff.
Hurherald,
FIVE SECONDS – for God to announce his presence to the world
FIVE SECONDS – to prove that believers are right
FIVE SECONDS – to end the controversy
FIVE SECONDS – to save BILLIONS of souls from going to hell
FIVE SECONDS – too much to ask of God
Observer
FIVE SECONDS – for an idiot to recite Arthur Clarke's 3rd law
I'm sorry but there are athiest fundies out there that would NEVER accept a spiritual answer to reality. They would deny it as strongly as some religious fundies reject evolution.
It's the human condition of stubborness and atheists are no more immune than the religious.
"I’m sorry but there are athiest fundies out there that would NEVER accept a spiritual answer to reality."
My forehead hurts from slapping it so much! You guys say the darndest things!
First, you think an atheist is a fundy because you don't really understand what a fundy is. You cannot describe what an atheist does that would qualify them as a fundy.
For example, you say they would never accept a spiritual answer to reality. What in the world is a "spiritual answer", and why would ANYONE accept it!?
Sorry, but preferring real answers does not make someone a fundy.
Time to get off here....I might pick this conversation up in the morning. Until then, good night and Merry Christmas if I don't get back on here.
So, Hurheald, make your case – what evidence do you have?
Observer
Hurherald,
Some people still believe the earth is flat. Nothing will satisfy EVERYONE. We have to address the vast majority. If the entire world heard the same message at the same time, there is little choice to accept it.
FIVE SECONDS – to save BILLIONS of souls from going to hell
FIVE SECONDS – too much to ask of God
Run, Hurherald, run!
@HotAirAce- "what evidence do you have?"
On what?
"Run, Hurherald, run!"
Good grief could you be more of a child?
@Observer- "Nothing will satisfy EVERYONE."
I will take that as agreement that some won't ever change their minds.
"We have to address the vast majority. If the entire world heard the same message at the same time, there is little choice to accept it."
One would hope.
"to save BILLIONS of souls from going to hell"
One could ask what is it that saves men's souls? Is it faith or undeniable acceptance?
"Believers should offer some PROOF. NONE so far."
When you say "proof", do you mean absolute certainty?
Here's a quote from one of the other posts:
"Science is knowledge without absolute certainty"
Are you holding a double standard – one for science and another for religion?
Paul,
Gravity can be proved over and over.
God cannot.
Paul, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people who say "proof" mean evidence, and not just quotes from the Bible, special pleading, arguments from ignorance and so on, but hard, verifiable, evidence. Evidence of the sort any rational person, including many Christians, would expect for any other extraordinary claim.
Quit what?
Please tell me bloggers isn't Atheism a lonely way of life.
Although I need church to pick up the ladies, if you know what I mean, wink wink.
War on Christmas?
Bwaaa ha ha ha.
Pssst. I've got a secret, we all know it doesn't exist.
Here's a little bit of Christmas spirit from Ca. 1959.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtZR3lJobjw
So why did Irving Berlin compose the song "Happy Holiday" in 1941 if the "atheists invented the war on Christmas"?
from wikipedia:
"Happy Holiday" (sometimes performed as "Happy Holidays") is a popular song composed by Irving Berlin during 1941 and published the following year.[1]
The song was introduced by Bing Crosby in the 1942 film Holiday Inn. While it is commonly regarded as a Christmas song, in the film it is performed on New Year's Eve, and expresses a wish for the listener to enjoy "happy holidays" throughout the entire year. The ti.tular phrase is now most commonly associated with inclusive holiday greetings used during the Christmas and holiday season.
If the point is that David Silverman is annoying, then yes, most certainly.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1228630/How-Hitlers-Nazi-propaganda-machine-tried-Christ-Christmas.html
"Nazi Germany celebrated Christmas without Christ with the help of swastika tree baubles, 'Germanic' cookies and a host of manufactured traditions, a new exhibition has shown.
The way the celebration was gradually taken over and exploited for propaganda purposes by Hitler's Nazis is detailed in a new exhibition.
Rita Breuer has spent years scouring flea markets for old German Christmas ornaments.
She and her daughter Judith developed a fascination with the way Christmas was used by the atheist Nazis, who tried to turn it into a pagan winter solstice celebration."
"Atheism is the only world-view or religious view that is not tolerated within the SS."
–Heinrich Himmler, in a letter to a pastor in 1937
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideology_of_the_SS#cite_note-10
–Members of the SS could be of any religion, but atheists and Jews were not allowed. In 1937, Himmler wrote in a letter to a pastor that an SS man's religious denomination was his own personal choice. Himmler wrote, "Atheism is the only world-view or religious view that is not tolerated within the SS." Himmler resented the fact that Christianity or the Christian churches could forbid SS men from having any leadership role in the church.–
He was just mad that Nazis couldn't serve leadership roles in church?
"In my eyes, Himmler was worse than Hitler. The asasination attempt should have been directed against Himmler in the first place. " Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski
Dyslexic doG = evangelical atheist
No kidding.
-–
Evangelical atheist: "Hi, I'm an atheist."
Other guy: "Cool, I'm Jewish."
Atheist: "YOU FOOL! YOU PRACTICE RELIGION LOL, YOURE A DUMBAZS AND IM COOL BECAUSE IM AN ATHEIST. I SHALL NOW PROCEED TO EXPLAIN WHY BLIND FAITH IS DUMB, UNLESS ITS BLIND FAITH IN ATHEISM WHICH IS A COINCIDENTAL EXCEPTION"
Other guy: "Shut it biatch, you're a dumbazs"
Atheist: "BUT IM AN ATHEIST, WHICH MEANS IM ALWAYS RIGHT. AND IM NOT AN INTOLERANT PRCK LIKE ALL MEMBERS OF RELIGION ARE, HURR HURR HURR.
"Blind faith in atheism." Now there's a contradiction of terms if I've ever seen one. Atheists don't believe in things based on "faith". Believing things based on faith is perhaps the biggest problem with religions.
"Believing things based on faith is perhaps the biggest problem with religions."
Faith: to have trust or confidence in someone or something.
That's the kind of faith involved with Chrisitanity. It's completely rational.
Explain why blind faith is not dumb. If you do that in any other aspect of your life, I've got some ocean front property to sell in Arizona.
Licking out the cheese in the pizza box.
My next stop is Mexico and I will eat only tacos.
aaahhh it's Monday.
two of the Christians I spoke with yesterday argued and argued and finally thought ... and then realized the foolishness of their bronze age voodoo religion and became atheists. I can't tell you the joy that came from hearing them think for themselves and shake of the shackles that had bound them. little by little sanity is returning to the world.
so much work to do but such a worthy cause. my goal is 2 again next sunday.
Sumpin' special about sunday, other than man is fallin' all over the sun and not by choice??
I like chicken tacos. On Sunday.
You sound exactly like an evangelical Christian zealot...but instead of preaching and shoving Christianity down everyone's throat...you are preaching and shoving atheism down everyone's throat.
Are you sure about these 2 people that went from believing in God to a little while later suddenly believing there is no God.
"preaching and shoving atheism down everyone’s throat"
This comment always amazes me. Why do people think that promoting an idea is shoving it down someone's throat?
If you have an informed opinion about something, and you think it matters, by all means you should attempt to convince others. I don't want to have an uninformed view, so I welcome criticism of my ideas, and if I'm wrong about something I should change my mind.
Bring on the debate!
ATHEIST PIZZA WITH CHEESE IS THE BEST.
No it's not.
To be honest pepperoni pizza is the only way to go. I eat in for every meal.
Stop it. I'm snowed in and out of dough. Both kinds.
Nine lives time. Sorry kitties
All pizzas are atheists.
103:1 – By (swear) the time
103:2 – Indeed, mankind is in loss
103:3 – Except those who believe and do righteous good deeds, and recommend one another to the truth (i.e. order one another to perform all kinds of good deeds (Al-Ma'ruf) which Allah has ordained, and abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds (Al-Munkar) which Allah has forbidden), and recommend one another to patience (for the sufferings, harms, and injuries which one may encounter in Allah's Cause during preaching His religion of Islamic Monotheism or Jihad, etc.).
Muslims know how to keep their women in line. Too bad it's not the Christian way. 3 stars for tryin'.
Muslims gives a great honor to a woman which makes her a great wife and mother of their children... no children borns out of good luck and without father...
Please tell me how many women gets this honor of being wife in Christianity or any other religions and how many children are being born out of good luck and being a father less in the society (fyi in some culture they call these types of children as bustard) and many more...
Islam is the only way for these solutions of you just think...
Peace...
Muslims subjugate women. Some freaking luck.
Try harder. Your nasty, violent religion is horrible
I like chicken tacos.
As-salaam 'alaykum ... well mzh, at least you're a different flavor of crazy...
Wa 'alaykoum assalam warahmatullahi wabarkatuh L....
Thanks for the kind word...
Anything we say it will be shown on that day... and every word will go either for us OR against us... I just hope all will go for us and not against us...
What instigated the attack on the Twin Towers, Flight 93 and the Pentagon?
And what drives today's 24/7 mosque/imam-planned acts of terror and horror?
The koran, Mohammed's book of death for all infidels and Muslim domination of the world by any means.
Muslims must clean up this book removing said passages admitting that they are based on the Gabriel myth and therefore obviously the hallucinations and/or lies of Mohammed.
Then we can talk about the safety and location of mosques and what is taught therein.
Until then, no Muslim to include mzh can be trusted anytime or anywhere..................................
http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/arabic/005.asp et al
o "Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)
o
"Believers, when you encounter the infidels on the march, do not turn your backs to them in flight. If anyone on that day turns his back to them, except it be for tactical reasons...he shall incur the wrath of God and Hell shall be his home..." (Surah 8:12-)
"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)
"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God will chastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victory over them..." (Surah 9:12-)
"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:29-)
"It is He who has sent forth His apostle with guidance and the true Faith [Islam] to make it triumphant over all religions, however much the idolaters [non-Muslims] may dislike it." (Surah 9:31-)
"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)
"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)
"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)
"Say: 'Praise be to God who has never begotten a son; who has no partner in His Kingdom..." (Surah 17:111)
"'How shall I bear a child,' she [Mary] answered, 'when I am a virgin...?' 'Such is the will of the Lord,' he replied. 'That is no difficult thing for Him...God forbid that He [God[ Himself should beget a son!...Those who say: 'The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,' preach a monstrous falsehood..." (Surah 19:12-, 29-, 88)
"Fight for the cause of God with the devotion due to Him...He has given you the name of Muslims..." (Surah 22:78-)
"Blessed are the believers...who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave-girls, for these are lawful to them)...These are the heirs of Paradise..." (Surah 23:1-5-)
"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)
"Shall the reward of goodness be anything but good?...Dark-eyed virgins sheltered in their tents...They shall recline on green cushions and fine carpets...Blessed be the name of your Lord..." (Surah 55:52-66-)
“Whoever does any work on a holy day - put to death”
“anyone who blasphemes - stone him.”
“worship other gods - stone the guilty ones to death”
“stubborn and rebellious son - stone him to death.”
“man is found lying with a married woman - both of them shall die”
“virgin engaged to another man and he lies with her - stone them to death”
“Whoever strikes his father or his mother - put to death”
"Anyone who says cruel things to his father or mother - put to death.”
“anyone who curses his father or his mother - put to death”
“man who commits adultery with another man's wife - they shall be put to death.”
"man or woman who is a medium or a fortune-teller - stone them to death"
From the Quran? Nope. From the Bible
Those are OT/Torah passages. The NT has a different message although still filled with supersti-tions, myths and embellishments but encouraging historically accurate rules of life such as the Beat-itudes.
And the orthodox OT/Torah takes a real hit with the following:
reiterate.
New Torah For Modern Minds
“Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. (prob•a•bly
Adverb: Almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell).
The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.
Such startling propositions - the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years - have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity - until now.
The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called "Etz Hayim" ("Tree of Life" in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine doc-ument.
The notion that the Bible is not literally true "is more or less settled and understood among most Conservative rabbis," observed David Wolpe, a rabbi at Sinai Temple in Los Angeles and a contributor to "Etz Hayim." But some congregants, he said, "may not like the stark airing of it." Last Passover, in a sermon to 2,200 congregants at his synagogue, Rabbi Wolpe frankly said that "virtually every modern archaeologist" agrees "that the way the Bible describes the Exodus is not the way that it happened, if it happened at all." The rabbi offered what he called a "LITANY OF DISILLUSION”' about the narrative, including contradictions, improbabilities, chronological lapses and the absence of corroborating evidence. In fact, he said, archaeologists digging in the Sinai have "found no trace of the tribes of Israel - not one shard of pottery."
the reality of your comments highlights the conflicts of traditional religions,Monotheism ,the last dominant evolutionary religion before the advent of monism was conceived and practiced almost 5000 years ago and become dominant during the last millinium of the Roman empire and when Islam was founded in 5th century,monotheism became more dominant.Since these were founded during pre scientific times their doctrines are all based in blind faith which until today is the norm.Without the objectivity of scientific philosophy our faith is exposed to all kinds of dogmatic differenses,since history showed that religion also evolved,our future as willed by God shall be science based and reasoned inspired.The first to be hurdled is the problems of how to find a common ground that will unite us all,inspite the discovery that We are one specie and we evolved from a common parent,we still cling to the differences of origin.A revolutionary shift to a science based theology has been developed,and religious unity will be a reality,because its his Will and a necessity for our survival
Thats all I needed to hear, the responds from you all...
I am not here to convince anyone as there is no compulsion in acception religion... its all our choice...
I am hopping for a guidance from the one who created us all.... also if we want it of course...
Quran will never be changed... it will be as it was revealed 14k years ago and it is preserved as it was revealed and it will be as it is...
Peace be upon all of you my brothers and sisters from different parents...
I think you mean 1.4k years ago instead of 14k years ago.
Oops! my mistake... Thanks for catching it... please read as 14 plus hundred years...
How many years ago creationists ?
Evidence of Mass Extinction Associated With Climate Change 375 Million Years Ago Discovered in Central Asia
Dec. 13, 2013 — Members of a U.N.-sponsored research team with members from Appalachian State University's Department of Geology have found evidence for catastrophic oceanographic events associated with climate change and a mass extinction 375 million years ago that devastated tropical marine ecosystems.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/12/131213092841.htm
As noted many times, mzh suffers for a severe case of the Three B Syndrome, Bred, Born and Brainwashed in Islam. And again as noted many times, there is a quick and easy cure.
From the studies of Armstrong, Rushdie, Hirsi Ali, Richardson and Bayhaqi----–
The Five Steps To Deprogram 1400 Years of Islamic Myths:
( –The Steps take less than two minutes to finish- simply amazing, two minutes to bring peace and rationality to over one billion lost souls- Priceless!!!)
Are you ready?
Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.
The First Five of the 77 Branches:
"1. Belief in Allah"
aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc. should be added to your self-cleansing neurons.
"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."
Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gi-b G-nab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "crea-tionist".
"3. To believe in the existence of angels."
A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/de-vils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hitt-ites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ug-ly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as f–airies and "tin–ker be-lls". Modern de-vils are classified as the de-mons of the de-mented.
"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."
Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.
Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the un-educated masses in line. Today we call them for-tune tellers.
Prophecies are also invali-dated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.
"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings
be upon him) alone."
Mohammed spent thirty days "fasting" (the Ramadan legend) in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic vi-olence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallu-cinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.
Walk these Five Steps and we guarantee a complete recovery from your Islamic ways!!!!
Unfortunately, there are not many Muslim commentators/readers on this blog so the "two-minute" cure is not getting to those who need it. If you have a Muslim friend, send him a copy and help save the world.
Analogous steps are available at your request for deprogramming the myths of Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism and Paganism..
Oops, make that "mzh suffers FROM a severe case.........
It will never happen R2...
Please tell me you're joking.
It's hard to believe that anyone could be so foolish.
Islam is like Christianity, & every other religion; totally absurd.
No one has the slightest evidence that there are magical beings, & those who believe that specially appointed humans speak for them and tell us what we already know are incredibly gullible.
Shame on all of you!
Shed peace, not discord, wherever you go.
Try to be part of the cure of every situation, not part of the problem.
Try to ignore evil, rather than to actively combat it.
Always try to build up, never to tear down.
Show others by your example that happiness comes from living the right way.
The power of your example is greater than the power of what you say.
What I say I believe is logical and reasonable. What I do is flawed and human.
My actions speak louder than my words. Using a label of Christian or atheist doesn't fix that fact.
@Just the Facts Ma'am... : Yes, Easter is the ex-pagan celebration of spring, fertility
Pick any day of the year and a similar argument could be made (i.e. close to a n ex-pagan celebration).
not ex....there is far more of the fertility symbolism with "easter" than religious symbolism.
You openly celebrate a pagan holiday. Nothing EX about it.
I don't celebrate any pagan holidays.
Yes you do, you just won't admit it, even to yourself.
Easter lasts for 50 days in my Lutheran tradition of celebration. We recognize some aspects of Easter Day, like the bunnies and eggs are not traditional but cultural, tied to our pagan past. It isn't problematic, nor does it mean we hijacked a religion or stole something from pagans.
@igaftr : there is far more of the fertility symbolism with "easter" than religious symbolism.
Satan is the great deceiver. He takes Christian celebrations and distorts them into other meanings – Like the resurrection and the easter bunny, Halloween, Christmas, etc. etc. etc. If you don't celebrate Easter eggs, you're nor celebrating fertility, but Christ's resurrection.
Spring is the season of re-birth, the time when ancient peoples celebrated the return of the sun, the awakening of the earth, the return to fertility, the rise from the winter hibernation.
There is no coincidence that the early church put Easter where it did.
The resurrection story of Christ is re-packaged Pagan mythos, dressed up in Judeo-Christian garments and paraded out to the people to replace that which came before.
Even the name "Easter" is Pagan.
Spring is the season of re-birth, the time when ancient peoples celebrated the return of the sun, the awakening of the earth, the return to fertility, the rise from the winter hibernation.
There is no coincidence that the early church put Easter where it did.
The resurrection story of Christ is re-packaged Pagan mythos, dressed up in Judeo-Christian garments and paraded out to the people to replace that which came before.
Even the name "Easter" is Pagan.
Sorry about the double post.
@myweightinwords : The resurrection story of Christ is re-packaged Pagan mythos
Nice conclusion, but without any supporting premises it is only a non sequitur logic fallacy.
"satan is the great deciever".....no, the ones who wrote the book that contains the character satan is the great deceiver. Best piece of propoganda ever created...all you need do is read the first few pages, and you should see how false it is , yet people like you continue to believe.
Right. Pagans became Christians and held onto their traditions and customs. They belonged to them. And keeping them did not interfere with their brand new belief system.
@myweightinwords : Sorry about the double post.
Quick question – Do you have the list of bad words handy still? My computer crashed awhile back and I lost the list. I'd appreciate it if you could post it again.
The resurrection story existed before Pagans became Christians and started celebrating Easter.
As is your contention that only Christians may have a day off. You are absurd, L4H.
Live4Him
" Do you have the list of bad words handy still?"
There's a copy of it on page #43 of these comments.
@Hints : There's a copy of it on page #43 of these comments.
Thanks!
Yeah, AE the threat of being burned at the stake, or otherwise tortured caused many pagans to become Christians. The one's that didn't died.
Some willingly chose to follow Jesus Christ. You can't force someone to trust in Jesus.
@Live4Him, a thread consisting of 5 responses to complex for you today?
@just sayin : a thread consisting of 5 responses to complex for you today?
I wasn't a part of the conversation.
That's what a reply button is for.
@Max : That's what a reply button is for.
So, you think it is acceptable to butt into a conversation and create these long meandering rabbit trails to nowhere? I'd rather keep the discussions focused. So, I'll keep creating new posts whenever I'm not a part of the discussion and I'm changing the direction of the discussion.
How does one "butt in" on a discussion thread? What do you think the "reply" button is for?
You logic gets more weird every day. Constantly starting new threads by talking another poster's words out of context is disingenuous. But I suspect you know that.
holiday (n.)
1500s, earlier haliday (c.1200), from Old English haligdæg "holy day; Sabbath," from halig "holy" (see holy) dæg "day" (see day); in 14c. meaning both "religious festival" and "day of recreation,"but pronunciation and sense diverged 16c. As a verb meaning "to pass the holidays" by 1869.
-Online Etymology Dictionary
Are you going to claim only Christians can take a day off, like you did yesterday?
@Max : Are you going to claim only Christians can take a day off, like you did yesterday?
Are you going to ignore the underlying meaning of holyday like you did yesterday?
Do you not know the difference between holyday and holiday?
I think Live4Him is confused about the way in which languages grow and change. This type of confusion is common among people who have erroneous ideas about the origin of the earth and so never bothered to study linguistics...if god gave us ready made language, why bother?
@Max : Do you not know the difference between holyday and holiday
None, other than spelling.
Hey, Live4Him, what do "aweful", "artificial" and "nice" mean?
Another non sequitur.
Pagans have eight festivals based around the solstices and equinoxes.
lie4him works on the "monkeys on typewriters" principle. if he posts enough things over a long period of time, eventually he'll post a fact.
Are you talking about Neo-Paganism? Or historic Paganism? Historically, not all pagans followed the same traditions or celebrated the same kinds of festivals.
Oh, yeah??!!! Well, yer mommie didn't tell you about the 4th mystical monkey. What a #itch.
I like pepperoni pizza. Thin crust, extra well done.
No. I don't.
Yes I do
@Dyslexic doG : Pagans have eight festivals based around the solstices and equinoxes.
Yes, and those are just SOME of their many festivals. Check out the Wiccan (one of the many pagan religions) holiday calendar. Almost every month has between 3-10 holidays identified.
http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/holidaysandcelebrations/a/2013-Pagan-Wiccan-Calendar.htm
Atheist: "These people are so silly for believing in an invisible man in the sky"
Christian: "Hey! Shut up! Why do you have to attack us?"
Atheist: "I was talking about those Hindu's who worship Vishnu..."
Christian: "Oh, well yeah, those people are crazy and worship a false God..."
You slighted that rich kid, Buddha. Tryin' to cause trouble??
Wow, you take stupid to new heights. Hindu is not the same as Buddhism.
lolcat
You mean that rich kid Buddha that gave up all his riches and power.
YUP, that one. I wonder what possessed him to do that??
BBbbbwwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahaha
Lolcat
If you ask that question, you know nothing of the Buddha. The why is the most important part of his story.(history)
Atheist: "These people are so silly for believing in an invisible man in the sky"
Christian: "Hey! Shut up! Why do you have to attack us?"
Atheist: "I was talking about those non-Christian Gods..."
Christian: "That doesn’t make it okay. We should all try to coexist in harmony.”
Atheist: “You’re right. I’m sorry, everyone.”
Christian: You should believe exactly like I do or my god will torture you forever and ever in a pit of fire.
Atheist: Your god sounds like a jerk.
Christian: Hey! Don't insult me! We need to live in peace and joy and love.
Atheist: Yeah, that'd be good, but you also think the best day is the day your god sentences me to eternal fiery torture
Christian: Yep, that'll be the best day of my life!! When my good and righteous god shows people how to really "love their enemies" by torturing you all forever and ever and ever.
Don't be silly. Hell gets chucked into the lake of fire.
Bad Guys: Give us all your money!
Atheist: Oh no! Who will save us?
Christian: I will!
Christian successfully defends everyone from the bad guys.
Atheist: Oh, thank you Christian.
Christian: No problem. On a side note, EVERY Christian is a great guy or gal who protects the good in the world. I am a reflection on every single Christian.
So, in your story god is the "bad guys?" Interesting.
When your wifey puts you in the dog house are you invisible??
Of course not.
My God, you are hateful.
That's not what she told the pizza delivery boy.
PDQ
Not my God.
LOL?
The pizza boy? How did you obtain such information?
I like pepperoni pizza.
A close friend of a friend in the NSA. He's great for stock tips, too.
THAT would explain it...
I also use the NSA to find out what's going on in other people's bedrooms. Gubmint perks.