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 The group American Atheists has placed this billboard in New York City's Times Square.
December 21st, 2013
10:22 AM ET
Why atheists should quit the 'War on Christmas’Opinion by Chris Stedman, special to CNN
In recent years, one organization, American Atheists, has claimed the mantle of prime atheist promoter of the tired “War on Christmas” narrative. This year, they ushered in the season with an electronic billboard in New York City’s Times Square carrying the message: “Who needs Christ during Christmas? Nobody.” The word "Christ" is crossed out, just in case their message wasn't clear enough. The American Atheists maintain that their latest entry in the annual “War on Christmas” saga is a message to other atheists that they are not alone. In a recent Fox News appearance, American Atheists President Dave Silverman said, “The point that we’re trying to make is that there’s a whole bunch of people out there for whom religion is the worst part of Christmas, but they go to church anyways, and we’re here to tell them they don’t have to.” While that intention is important and admirable, very few people—atheist or theist—seem to interpret the message as welcoming to anyone. Many of the responses I’ve seen have been vitriolic and disturbingly anti-atheist. Which raises the question: If the goal truly is to reach isolated atheists, why does the advertisement read as a dig at Christians? A better billboard for American Atheists’s stated aim might read: “Don’t celebrate Christmas? You’re not alone.” As atheists become more visible in our society, the entire “War on Christmas” back-and-forth feels ugly and unnecessary. Worse still, it seems to do little more than offer ammunition to those claiming atheists are just mean-spirited grinches. Bill O’Reilly—one of the major “War on Christmas” soldiers—made that clear when he and I discussed the “War on Christmas” a couple of weeks ago. Let’s not kid ourselves: There is no war on Christmas. We live in a culture that privileges stories of conflict, so it’s understandable that this narrative would gain traction—with or without billboards. Much of this narrative is a manifestation of religious fears about our increasingly secular society, and it reflects widespread anxieties about atheists and religious differences. But it doesn’t reflect reality. Rather, as religious diversity in the U.S. has become more recognizable, Americans have largely broadened their approach to this time of year. According to new data from the Public Religion Research Institute, the percentage of Americans who prefer the inclusive “Happy Holidays” or “Season’s Greetings” has now exceeded the percentage that prefers “Merry Christmas.” It’s not that Christmas is under attack; instead, our society is becoming better at embracing its religious diversity and challenging the notion that a single majority religion should dominate public expressions of belief. So why does the “War on Christmas” narrative persist? Based on how much play they give it each December, the “War on Christmas” narrative seems to be good for Fox News ratings. And American Atheists has openly admitted that it is good for their pocketbooks, as their talk show appearances bring in a swell of donations. Consider this from a recent profile of Silverman: “Silverman’s notorious anti-Christmas billboards and subsequent TV appearances have breathed new life into American Atheists and are often followed by an uptick in subscribers and donations. ... According to Silverman, the primary objective of the billboards is to get invitations to talk shows.” In other words: American Atheists and Fox News - alongside conservatives like Sarah Palin - seem to have discovered a mutually beneficial relationship. But does this relationship benefit atheists more broadly? Does it accurately represent the sentiments of nontheists in this country? Does it improve atheist-theist relations? Does it lessen the widespread stigma and distrust that exists between atheists and theists, which enables atheist marginalization across the U.S.? Does it invite Christians to think critically about religious privilege? Many atheists, myself included, suspect that there are more effective approaches to tackling these important issues. To start, atheists can build positive relationships with believers to humanize our communities and educate one another about our differences. That’s something that billboards, for all of their flash and fundraising capabilities, likely won’t accomplish. Atheists face real marginalization in the U.S., and it should be robustly challenged. But we also have good tidings and great joy to offer—important contributions to the public square that are currently being drowned out by attention-grabbing billboards claiming “nobody” needs Christ in Christmas. In the spirit of generosity, compassion, and kindness so often associated with this time of year, let’s ditch the billboards and build relationships of goodwill. Chris Stedman is the Assistant Humanist Chaplain at Harvard University, Coordinator of Humanist Life for the Yale Humanist Community, and author of "Faitheist: How an Atheist Found Common Ground with the Religious." You can follow him on Twitter at @ChrisDStedman. The views expressed in this column belong to Stedman. soundoff (5,210 Responses)« Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 Next »
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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(CNN) - The “War on Christmas:” what — or who—is it good for?
One of the great things about America is that it doesn't matter if you are Jewish, Buddhist, Wiccan, Pagan, Muslim, Athiest etc... you can still celebrate Christmas in America. You can still have a tree, give out presents, spend time with family, invite the fat Father Christmas into your house. Our diversity has allowed us to adapt. Religious or not, Christian or not, you can still be part of the community you live in, enjoy the lights and decorations. Those that do not get this, need to get over it, we have all the religions of the world in America, people from every nation, Celebrate our Diversity.
Christians are not short changed by this. Thankfully we have a Bill of Rights that allows free religious belief and expression. Just leave the Courthouse steps alone and put a Creche in front of your Church, hold public or private religious services, form corale groups, have food drives and enjoy and celebrate Jesus's birth.
Everyone else can enjoy the holiday, donate to the poor and unemployed, do toy drives, sing carols, drink egg nog and enjoy the snow. We just to all get along. Happy Holidays!
Excellent comment, Scott. Thank you!
Celebrate our diversity or celebrate our stupidity????
Putting the kibosh on all religion in less than ten seconds: Priceless !!!
• As far as one knows or can tell, there was no Abraham i.e. the foundations of Judaism, Christianity and Islam are non-existent.
• As far as one knows or can tell, there was no Moses i.e the pillars of Judaism, Christianity and Islam have no strength of purpose.
• There was no Gabriel i.e. Islam fails as a religion. Christianity partially fails.
• There was no Easter i.e. Christianity completely fails as a religion.
• There was no Moroni i.e. Mormonism is nothing more than a business cult.
• Sacred/revered cows, monkey gods, castes, reincarnations and therefore Hinduism fails as a religion.
• Fat Buddhas here, skinny Buddhas there, reincarnated/reborn Buddhas everywhere makes for a no on Buddhism.
• A constant cycle of reincarnation until enlightenment is reached and belief that various beings (angels?, tinkerbells? etc) exist that we, as mortals, cannot comprehend makes for a no on Sikhism.
Added details available upon written request.
I think it's smarter to celebrate diversity.
And why would one to celebrate diversity when so much of it is based on superst-ition, embellishment and myth?
Because it brings people together rather than divide them.
Some of the effects of diversity:
The Twenty (or so) Worst Things GOD'S CREATURES Have Done to Each Other:
M. White, http://necrometrics.com/warstatz.htm#u (required reading)
The Muslim Conquest of India
"The likely death toll is somewhere between 2 million and 80 million. The geometric mean of those two limits is 12.7 million. "
Rank …..Death Toll ..Cause …..Centuries……..(Religions/Groups involved)*
1. 63 million Second World War 20C (Christians et al and Communists/atheists vs. Christians et al, Nazi-Pagan and "Shintoists")
2. 40 million Mao Zedong (mostly famine) 20C (Communism)
3. 40 million Genghis Khan 13C (Shamanism or Tengriism)
4. 27 million British India (mostly famine) 19C (Anglican)
5. 25 million Fall of the Ming Dynasty 17C (Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, Chinese folk religion)
6. 20 million Taiping Rebellion 19C ( Confucianism, Buddhism and Chinese folk religion vs. a form of Christianity)
7. 20 million Joseph Stalin 20C (Communism)
8. 19 million Mideast Slave Trade 7C-19C (Islam)
9. 17 million Timur Lenk 14C-15C
10. 16 million Atlantic Slave Trade 15C-19C (Christianity)
11. 15 million First World War 20C (Christians vs. Christians)
12. 15 million Conquest of the Americas 15C-19C (Christians vs. Pagans)
13. 13 million Muslim Conquest of India 11C-18C
14. 10 million An Lushan Revolt 8C
15. 10 million Xin Dynasty 1C
16. 9 million Russian Civil War 20C (Christians vs Communists)
17. 8 million Fall of Rome 5C (Pagans vs. Christians)
18. 8 million Congo Free State 19C-20C (Christians)
19. 7½ million Thirty Years War 17C (Christians vs Christians)
20. 7½ million Fall of the Yuan Dynasty 14C
All the more reasons why it's better to celebrate diversity.
"Added details" .. in other words, CCNL 's typical copy and paste from liberal theologians. I will pass on your lies.
Only for the those interested in a religious update:
1. origin: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482
“New Torah For Modern Minds
Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.
Such startling propositions – the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years – have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity – until now.
The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called "Etz Hayim" ("Tree of Life" in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine docu-ment. “
prob•a•bly
Adverb: Almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell.
2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations (or “mythicizing” from P, M, M, L and J) and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a ma-mzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). An-alyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Ludemann, Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, ) via the NT and related doc-uments have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.
The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hitt-ites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.
earlychristianwritings.com/
For added "pizzazz", Catholic theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".
Current RCC problems:
Pedophiliac priests, an all-male, mostly white hierarchy, atonement theology and original sin!!!!
2 b., Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley, Roger Williams, the Great “Babs” et al, founders of Christian-based religions or combination religions also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immacu-late co-nceptions).
Current problems:
Adulterous preachers, pedophiliac clerics, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology,
3. Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.
This agenda continues as shown by the ma-ssacre in Mumbai, the as-sas-sinations of Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, the Ft. Hood follower of the koran, the Filipino “koranics”and the Boston Marthon bombers.
And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.
Current crises:
The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.
4. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) – "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."
The caste/laborer system, reincarnation and cow worship/reverence are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."
Current problems:
The caste system, reincarnation and cow worship/reverence.
5. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."
"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"
Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circu-mstances of his life. e.g. Buddha by one legend was supposedly talking when he came out of his mother's womb.
Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies, and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.
Then, apply the Five F rule: "First Find the Flaws, then Fix the Foundations". And finally there will be religious peace and religious awareness in the world!!!!!
And Reality wonders why counterww submitted that post.
Now counterww cannot say he has not been brought up to date. And his and others "thu-mping" the bible no longer is viable in today's world.
As good students, you have read the reiterations of the "fems" (flaws, errors, muck and stench) of religion. Therefore the seeds have been planted in rich soil. Go therefore and preach the truth to all nations, reiterating as you go amongst the lost, bred, born and brainwashed souls of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism as Rational Thinking makes its triumphant return all because of you!!!!
Brought up to date on what? Theologies and theories? None of those are even established facts let alone established truths. And the thing is that you haven't even given all of the theologies and theories to even be brought up to date; that is except only the only Reality finds appropriate without even proving why those particular theories and theologies are even better than others.
Obviously, some here failed to review the information posted at at http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html
A synopsis: (again, note that three of these NT exegetes are members of the On Faith panel)
:Jesus the Myth: Heavenly Christ
Earl Doherty
Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy
Jesus the Myth: Man of the Indefinite Past
Alvar Ellegård
G. A. Wells
Jesus the Hellenistic Hero
Gregory Riley
Jesus the Revolutionary
Robert Eisenman
Jesus the Wisdom Sage
John Dominic Crossan
Robert Funk
Burton Mack
Stephen J. Patterson
Jesus the Man of the Spirit
Marcus Borg
Stevan Davies
Geza Vermes
Jesus the Prophet of Social Change
Richard Horsley
Hyam Maccoby
Gerd Theissen
Jesus the Apocalyptic Prophet
Bart Ehrman
Paula Fredriksen
Gerd Lüdemann
John P. Meier
E. P. Sanders
Jesus the Savior – Kev's theory
Luke Timothy Johnson
Robert H. Stein
N. T. Wright
So, you actUally think that is all that there is in commentary? You haven't even proven how your selective sources are better than others, let alone proven that what they are commenting on is actual proven truth.
And what has the diversity of religion caused ? (e.g. Islam vs. Christianity is a good example of diversity gone amuck).
Convergence of religions to the simple rule of "Do No Harm" would solve of a lot if not all the problems associated with the current horror and terror of religious "fruit cakes".
And as said previously:
It is very disturbing that religious narrow- mindedness, intolerance, violence and hatred continues unabated due to randomness of birth. Maybe, just maybe if this fact would be published on the first page of every newspaper every day, that we would finally realize the significant stupidity of all religions.
All because they celebrated doversity...oh wait they didn't...hmmm.
Diversity within a religion like your brand of Christianity? Mzh's brand of Islam? Give us a break !!!
After all, what would happen if we treated each other's diverse religious beliefs with respect? The gall!!!
Kev,
What about diversity like giving equal rights to gays and respecting pro-choice supporters?
That we should be considered lucky that we live in a government that has a systems of checks and balances between having a democracy while also have means of staving off certain democratic factions against certain minorities.
Even if those checks and balances seem to go against your beliefs, if you still respect the system itself along with the other groups there is still a better chance to live in relative peace then just pushing some sort of movement to eradicate religion altogether.
Any such movement to just rid of all religion will not only fail to quench the religious turmoil, it will actually add fuel to the fire since it will be just adding one more belief-based faction into the flame.
Kev,
Can you identify ONE elected official in our entire nation who advocates the elimination of religion?
The notion that getting rid of religion would make everything everything hunky dory is a rather impractical and naive notion, since there will always be differences of opinion in which people become very adamant about; it's not just the religious opinions.
No, I can't recall any such political official who endorses getting rid of religion, but that is not the point. The point is that there are those on this blog such as Reality 2 who advocate that it is better to celebrate the mocking of religion or that religion should be done away with completely figuring that religion is somehow the basis for all of these wars when there is no indication that actually getting rid of religion would actually produce those results.
“John Hick, a noted British philosopher of religion, estimates that 95 percent of the people of the world owe their religious affiliation to an accident (the randomness) of birth. The faith of the vast majority of believers depends upon where they were born and when. Those born in Saudi Arabia will almost certainly be Moslems, and those born and raised in India will for the most part be Hindus. Nevertheless, the religion of millions of people can sometimes change abruptly in the face of major political and social upheavals. In the middle of the sixth century ce, virtually all the people of the Near East and Northern Africa, including Turkey, Syria, Iraq, and Egypt were Christian. By the end of the following century, the people in these lands were largely Moslem, as a result of the militant spread of Islam.
The Situation Today
Barring military conquest, conversion to a faith other than that of one’s birth is rare. Some Jews, Moslems, and Hindus do convert to Christianity, but not often. Similarly, it is not common for Christians to become Moslems or Jews. Most people are satisfied that their own faith is the true one or at least good enough to satisfy their religious and emotional needs. Had St. Augustine or St. Thomas Aquinas been born in Mecca at the start of the present century, the chances are that they would not have been Christians but loyal followers of the prophet Mohammed. “ J. Somerville
It is very disturbing that religious narrow- mindedness, intolerance, violence and hatred continues unabated due to randomness of birth. Maybe, just maybe if this fact would be published on the first page of every newspaper every day, that we would finally realize the significant stupidity of all religions.
So in a world where it is likely that one will follow the beliefs they were brought up in, a movement to abolish religion or to celebrate the mockery of religion would certainly ease those nasty religious turmoils. it's not like those life long believers in whatever beliefs they are holding on to would ever get upset would they?
Randy Marsh: Sharon, don't you think maybe you should watch something else? You've been watching CNN for about [checks his watch] eight weeks now?
Protestant: Hey, wait a minute, I was a complete and devout Protestant. I thought we got into Heaven?
Hell Orientation Director: Yes, well, I'm afraid you were wrong.
Jehovah's Witness: I was a practicing Jehovah's Witness.
Hell Orientation Director: You picked the wrong religion as well.
Random Orientation Attendee: Well, who was right? Who got into Heaven?
Hell Orientation Director: I'm afraid it was the... Mormons were the correct answer.
Orientation Attendees: [collective groan]
Funny how people don't apply the same kind of "it must all be wrong because it's impossible to know the truth" logic when it comes to science
Probably because what we do know has evidence to back it up, and we are not afraid to say "I don't know" when that's the correct answer.
My point was simply that Sea Otter (Leader Allied Atheist Alliance)'s point was illogical, hence his conclusion is illogical
Sea Otter is a clever one, but don't take it literally. Just enjoy the humor.
sea otters point? Sea otters point was to quote "Southpark"...
Ah, okay.
I don't watch South Park, so I didn't know the reference. TY for the info.
Science damn you!
That is one funny sub-thread, just like South Park, LOL!
LOL. It's like Blood Simple.
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ISLAMABAD (AP) – A 72-year-old American development worker who was kidnapped in Pakistan by al-Qaida more than two years ago appealed to President Obama in a video released Thursday to negotiate his release, saying he feels "totally abandoned and forgotten."
The video of Warren Weinstein of Rockville, Md., was the first since two videos released in September 2012. Weinstein, the country director in Pakistan for J.E. Austin Associates, a U.S.-based firm that advises a range of Pakistani business and government sectors, was abducted from his house in the eastern city of Lahore in August 2011.
In the video sent Thursday to reporters in Pakistan including The Associated Press, Weinstein called on the U.S. government to negotiate his release.
"Nine years ago I came to Pakistan to help my government, and I did so at a time when most Americans would not come here, and now when I need my government it seems that I have been totally abandoned and forgotten," Weinstein said during the 13-minute video. "And so I again appeal to you to instruct your appropriate officials to negotiate my release."
It was impossible to tell how much Weinstein's statement, made under the duress of captivity, was scripted by his captors.
The video and an accompanying letter purported to be from Weinstein was emailed anonymously to reporters in Pakistan. The video was labelled "As-Sahab," which is al-Qaida's media wing, but its authenticity could not be independently verified. The letter was dated Oct. 3, 2013 and in the video Weinstein said he had been in captivity for two years.
In the video, Weinstein wore a grey track suit jacket and what appeared to be a black knit hat on his head. His face was partially covered with a beard.
Al-Qaida has said Weinstein would be released if the U.S. halted airstrikes in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia and Yemen and also demanded the release of all al-Qaida and Taliban suspects around the world.
The White House has called for Weinstein's immediate release but has said it won't negotiate with al-Qaida.
The videos last year showed Weinstein appealing for help from the Jewish community and Israel's prime minister.
"Truth" is an entirely philosophical construct.
If one actually took this post seriously, the point would be that only one religion was correct, that being the Mormons. Nothing in the post says "everything is wrong."
It just goes to show you that the whole, "you will be judged" and heaven and hell stuff is nonsense. If the current pope can see beyond that petty crap, surely at the very least a god would.
That was extremely funny, but I have to tell you the Hell Orientation Director is a liar like his father, Satan. What religion you chose does not determine whether to get to heaven or hell. Heavens, I fully expect to see atheists in heaven. It's whether you are willing to give your life for your friend, that is the cut. You can be the best in any religion and end up in hell if you do your good deeds WITHOUT LOVE. That said, there is one religion that is better than others because it contains the fullness of truth (Catholic Church), but that doesn't mean that Catholics get to go to heaven instead of atheists or Protestants. No, you can have bad greedy Catholics who just go to Church to sort of check it off their list. They don't make it unless they repent. Then you can have Protestants or Shintos, who love their neighbor, and God as they understand him, and they go to heaven. It's what you did to the least of these, and what you did to them you did to God. Atheist or not, you serve the little people with love, you end up in heaven. Sorry Charlie only the best tuna makes it there. The advantage of the Catholic Church is that it's easier. Not as much pain as going the path of atheist, or whatever. God bless you. Susan Fox, http://www.christsfaithfulwitness.com
If there are gods I'd be willing to bet they either don't dish out eternal punishments or they are total jerks. Al of these formulas end up having to tell you that everyone who dies as an infant or has severe intellectual or emotional disabilities goes striaght to heaven without question which makes the whole system a silly and unfair waste of everyone's time.
My God doesn't punish either. He accepts our free will. St. Thomas Acquinas cleared up that silliness centuries ago - that God sends people to hell. He doesn't. He lets you chose. Hell is simply the absence of God. If that's what you want that's what you get. Susan Fox http://www.christsfaithfulwitness.com
Except that if you were able to be honest with yourself you would realize that 1) if anyone is making that choice, and you are right about the ends, they are making it while depreived of fill knowledge and 2) "Free will" is a nonsensical construct invented to justify such a system without having to think too hard.
How can you say he gives us a choice, when he has presented absolutely nothing to us. We're just supposed to assume that ancient texts are right? What kind of nonsense is that? There is no choice, when you are born into certain religions or regions that may have never even heard of Jesus or the bible. Why doesn't god reveal himself to the doubters and the ignorant? LOL at choice. There is no choice, there is a lucky guess if you pick the right one.
Or...Or heaven and hell are just made up fictional places. Like Asgard or Valhalla and anyone spending any time or effort trying to gain access to or avoid these mythical places is wasting the precious brief time of actual living they have.
Valhalla is real... Don't make Løki come out. Everyone gets irritated when HE comes around...
I'm bored... my feet are cold...
so cute!
I've heard that socks and/or slippers help with the cold toes. As to the boredom....well, have you tried juggling?
That post was from yesterday... however, my feet are cold again. I DO have socks and shoes on since I'm at work. I think I might need to bring in a space heater for my feet.
Hmm... perhaps a space heater. Could be poor circulation too. Might check the ergonomics of your office chair, make sure it isn't stifling blood flow to your toes.
Yet another reason I love my job. I work from home a good chunk of the time now. Gives me full control over my environment.
I've had coworkers with unapproved space heaters blow out power for a whole. section of the building...just a word of caution.
I work in a SCIF... I would go to jail if I took my work home... or I could run away like a coward to Russia, but it's REALLY cold there...
Well, that wasn't much of a secret anyway... LOL
If God is all-knowing, why do holy books describe him as surprised or angered by the actions of humans? He should have known what was going to happen.
Not only surprise and anger but regret as well as pointed out by Genesis 6:6.
The God of the bible is just that, a God invented by the authors of the bible with all the human emotions the writers had, anger, jealousy, regret and a short temper.
A short temper Sir? How long has He been providing you breath? I'd say that's great patience, after all you are a sinful human being, as we all are.
Walter Johnson,
You failed to answer the question.
Some of us may be alive, but he's killed many an infant during fits of rage.
Because it's a lot easier to imagine a being having greater power than to imagine it having different emotions.
One of the funniest things is the sudden modesty requiring clothing, like a naked body is going to offend god, or the only two people on the planet.
Eve allegedly hid from god because she realized she was naked.... a trait ONLY taught by communities, like the communities that reject clothing and accept nudity.
Why would eve have modesty, since there would be no community to be ashamed in fromt of...the whole story reaks of human belief...definitely not divinely inspired.
It is interesting to note that tribes in warm climates have little to no clothing and seem completely unphased and are not embarrased at all by their nakedness. Do the religious believe these people are not related to the Eve lineage that inherrited sin that made the supposed first humans aware of their nakedness?
It's far more reasonable to assume that clothing was invented in regions where climate changes made our low-hair bodies require it for survival.
It is part of the justification for calling them heathens and primitives....giving the go ahead to "save" them (even though they have been living fine for thousands of years.). Some of them are among the happiest on earth, living in nature , not in spite of it like we do....I think we could learn a great deal about living in harmony with nature from some of these cultures. Look around any walmart and tell me that 90% won't end up in a landfill in 3 years.
Putting some of the holy books in proper 21st century perspective:
origin: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482 NY Times review and important enough to reiterate.
New Torah For Modern Minds
“Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. (prob•a•bly
Adverb: Almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell).
The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.
Such startling propositions - the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years - have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity - until now.
The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called "Etz Hayim" ("Tree of Life" in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine doc-ument.
The notion that the Bible is not literally true "is more or less settled and understood among most Conservative rabbis," observed David Wolpe, a rabbi at Sinai Temple in Los Angeles and a contributor to "Etz Hayim." But some congregants, he said, "may not like the stark airing of it." Last Passover, in a sermon to 2,200 congregants at his synagogue, Rabbi Wolpe frankly said that "virtually every modern archaeologist" agrees "that the way the Bible describes the Exodus is not the way that it happened, if it happened at all." The rabbi offered what he called a "LITANY OF DISILLUSION”' about the narrative, including contradictions, improbabilities, chronological lapses and the absence of corroborating evidence. In fact, he said, archaeologists digging in the Sinai have "found no trace of the tribes of Israel - not one shard of pottery."
As per National Geographic's Genographic project:
https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/
" DNA studies suggest that all humans today descend from a group of African ancestors who about 60,000 years ago began a remarkable journey. Follow the journey from them to you as written in your genes”.
"Adam" is the common male ancestor of every living man. He lived in Africa some 60,000 years ago, which means that all humans lived in Africa at least at that time.
Unlike his Biblical namesake, this Adam was not the only man alive in his era. Rather, he is unique because his descendents are the only ones to survive.
It is important to note that Adam does not literally represent the first human. He is the coalescence point of all the genetic diversity."
o More details from National Geographic's Genographic project: https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/
"Our spe-cies is an African one: Africa is where we first ev-olved, and where we have spent the majority of our time on Earth. The earliest fos-sils of recognizably modern Ho-mo sapiens appear in the fossil record at Omo Kibish in Ethiopia, around 200,000 years ago. Although earlier fossils may be found over the coming years, this is our best understanding of when and approximately where we originated.
According to the genetic and paleontological record, we only started to leave Africa between 60,000 and 70,000 years ago. What set this in motion is uncertain, but we think it has something to do with major climatic shifts that were happening around that time—a sudden cooling in the Earth’s climate driven by the onset of one of the worst parts of the last Ice Age. This cold snap would have made life difficult for our African ancestors, and the genetic evidence points to a sharp reduction in population size around this time. In fact, the human population likely dropped to fewer than 10,000. We were holding on by a thread.
Once the climate started to improve, after 70,000 years ago, we came back from this near-extinction event. The population expanded, and some intrepid explorers ventured beyond Africa. The earliest people to colonize the Eurasian landma-ss likely did so across the Bab-al-Mandab Strait separating present-day Yemen from Djibouti. These early beachcombers expanded rapidly along the coast to India, and reached Southeast Asia and Australia by 50,000 years ago. The first great foray of our species beyond Africa had led us all the way across the globe."
I don't think the original writers meant him to be all knowing the way Christians mean it today...people really hadn't hashed the god idea out that well yet. A lot of these characteristics evolved as people had more time to study and write this stuff down and then tried to rectify some of the contradictory stories and ideas.
Troll the ancient yuletide carol ~ fa lalalala la la la
Tall whites and Plejarin folks
Hovering by Nevada plains
And the air force in reply
Said they didn't see a thing
Moooore oor More of it
No one said they're "angels"
Phooooto ooohh ohhhs of it
By a Winneba-ah go.
Sorry just "trolling" an ancient carol.
In Computer Science, "RAM" stands for Random Access Memory, and it is a volatile storage area on the motherboard where all programs that are currently in use are loaded. If the work done in the RAM is not saved to the hard disc, a non-volatile peripheral storage area, it is completely lost when those programs are closed or if the power is lost. The key aspect of this analogy is volatility.
I see a lot of discussions here about God and His mystery, always going back to square one time and again and without any retention of nor progress on previous sessions. That is complete volatility.
It is not possible to address the same issues from the start all the time without retention of the previous sessions, at least within a short time period. It becomes more like just arguments without merits.
Gosh , thanks for that lesson I learned in the 70's....
As far as your arguments go, you don't present any since all of your posts have the premise there is a god, and we know what he wants, which is unfounded.
You are the one who keeps getting on the hamster wheel.
Well that 70's show, ..oops..I mean computer knowledge is still the case today.
Well, regarding God's existence, I find it compelling that many people want us (believers) to know so much details about the Order Of Heavens, which is impossible, while all we humans CANNOT know scientifically where everything came from!
"order of heavens"
What order of heavens are you talking about....which order of Valhallas, or order of Mt. Olympuses
You put it there in italics as if that has some meaning....a quick search shows sites all over the place, none with "order of heavens" as being any sort of a standard, and even the name presumes a god, verifying my orignal post...you always post with a god bias on every premise .
Well, there are terms used in Christian Theology that are not necessarily common, what matters is the point intended. Also, what you call a bias is actually a belief/faith in God.
What point was initended....that christian theology has nothing to do with reality? We already know that just from the flaws in the bible that science has proven false.
Your theology classes ARE biased, which is EXACTLY why they cannot be used an any premise for a logical, or reasonable or even remotely scientific inquiry....the faith precludes it, so ANY mention of christian belief or dogma instantly invalidate the scientific premise. Which is exactly why every time you post the garbage you learned in those classes, it gets destroyed, showing the flaws in the basic premises, destroying the integrity of the argument. your BIAS precludes logic.
If you can come up with some scientific way of validating the presense of some deity, that would be a start...until you do, it is ALL invalid, and I hope you aren't paying for that "education"
Well, the point is, in layman's terms, that we CANNOT know everything about God's business.
In the meantime, until Science explains where everything came from, it is clueless, and believers cannot be expected to prove the existence of God empirically!
Again...the basic flawed premise that there are any gods...
The reason that is flawed, and I cannot stress this enough...there are an infinite number of possibilities....you keep focusing on the ones that include a god, which will NEVER yeild results because you preclude the possibility and even probablity that there are NO GODS.
Until we know one way or another, ANY theology class is pretty much just speculation of ONE possibility among an INFINTE number....a fools errand to say the least.
How is asking Science to empirically show where everything came from suggesting any God?!
Vic
You are missing the point.
Science is looking for what is.
religion tried to tell us what is, but does not know.
science asks the questions.
religion thinks it has the answers, so it tries to make any data that comes along fit into what answers religion thinks it has.
We do not know is an answer....but we don't know is the base point where all religions come from....the effort to fill in the gaps in our knowledge, not with what we actually find, but pulling information directly from our imaginations.
Keep religion away from science...when you do not, you corrupt science with bias.
Logic also does not work with religion....belief/faith eliminates logic/reason.
Science will find what it does...not what it thinks will be there.
Science also has no problem saying we do not know...something that religion was created to fill in the gaps with. Religion is the enemy of science because of the bias....science is the enemy of religion, because science brings knowledge, destroying belief often (as it has with the bible)
So you say.
I just would like to take this opportunity and thank God for and them all the Christian Scientists who founded the branches of Modern Science AND the Modern Scientific Method.
I think the better question to ask Vic is "Why are the unanswered questions of Science proof of God?!" Just because we have not invented the tools to gather ALL the data of the universe and thus are not able to answer ALL the questions some proof of a deity?
It's like a small scared child in a dark room claiming there is some monster out there in the darkness so you turn on the lights to show him there is no monster, but he just get's more scared claiming the monster must have hid in the closet or under the bed or anywhere you havn't yet looked, and when you do look and show them nothing is there it doesn't make them relieved, they get more upset because they now believe the monster is super fast or invisible or can teleport, because they know it's there, they can just feel it! And every time you show them the empty closet they refuse to believe it was empty a moment ago or won't be full of monsters as soon as you close the door.
Religious persons are scared little children who are frightened of their own shadows and if they had their way we would never open the closet door of the universe and explore, we would be sitting on our hands in the corner sniveling with fear. Those religious inventors and thinkers many like to point to as religious examples of ingenuity and progress made the progress in spote of their religions, not because of it.
spote = spite...
@vic: here is the answer you seek............................. everything came from energy.
yes it is just that fracking simple. atoms construct everything you see and atoms are made of energy.
no creator required, negetive electrons will naturally draw towards positive protons.
"life doesn't exsist because it has to, life exsists simply because it can."
christian scientist is an oxymoron.
Also, you can thank the greeks for scientific method.
Also, if I was a scientist 100 or more years ago, I would have lies and said I was whatever belief system was prevelant because of the nature of the religious to strike out or strike down any differing opinion ( like those who forced Socrates to drink poison, because they did not like him questioning your gods. The ACTUAL beliefs of many scientist is speculation due to the bias of their times.
Also, christianity has changed so much that todays christianity looks nothing like it did 100 years ago, 200 years ago and so on.
You are nothing but a christian supremacist.... and all of the negative connotations that belong to each of those words individually.
It is compelling how non-believers (respectfully speaking) always 'confine' the Supernatural/Metaphysical to the Natural/Physical! Humanity cornering itself, full fledge, by ignoring the extremely logical deduction, let alone circumstantial evidence — this universe and life in it —, that the Supernatural/Metaphysical is behind Natural/Physical, aka First Cause.
BTW, energy is a thermodynamic quantity, hence physical.
Vic
There you go again with the biased premise.
this is what we know. The universe has life in it.
We do not know how the energy of life works, or what its origins are...
THAT"S IT...YOU keep trying to push the first cause/ prima facea/ prime mover garbage...which is entirely unfounded, so exists only in the realm of philosophy, not science.
"I just would like to take this opportunity and thank God for and them all the Christian Scientists who founded the branches of Modern Science AND the Modern Scientific Method."
I would also like to take this opportunity to thank god for all of the plagues and diseases in the world, and for the children born with disfigurements and ailments. Way to go, big guy!
Only the religious RAM their beliefs into laws, schools, courthouses and our government. The non-religious are respectfully asking the religious to stop and get the response "Quit trying to force your non-belief on us! If we want our Gods Christ-mas lights to cover the whitehouse that's not forcing anything on you, you don't have to look..."
Yes, I understand your use of RAM to imply that the argument starts at the same position every time without any retention of the previously discussed point of contention, but I think you look at it from the perspective that YOUR data should have been retained and is more valueable than a non-believers data. You believe YOUR data is more valuable because you think it's fact but the non-believers have to keep reminding you that your data is just a theory until you can actually prove something and make it worth storing.
God made Eve out of Adam's rib, thus making a duplicate of Adam's DNA, thus making Steve and Adam the First Gay Marriage.
Posted in the wrong place. Meant for Vic. Sorry.
Vic and we know the elements needed for LIFE !
Phosphorus made in supernovas, study confirms
Last of 5 heavier elements essential to life to have stellar origin confirmed
Phosphorus, a key ingredient in your DNA and bones, was originally made in exploding stars, a new study confirms.
By Emily Chung, CBC News Posted: Dec 12, 2013 4:00 PM ET Last Updated: Dec 13, 2013 11:10 AM ET
Actually, I find that to be a testimony to that it is the same Maker of the heavens and earth and life in it.
Does "making man from the dust of the earth and breathing into it" ring a bell?!
Adam and his bone + a talking donkey makes it all work right Vic ?
I love RIBS! Always have, always will! CAN'T live without them and CAN live with them!
Glad you love ribs PORK ribs or beef ?
Still does not answer the question – add the talking snake Now it works right Vic ?
Well, obviously, you ignored the metaphor about Eve.
Literally, "Pork Ribs", off course!
Oh..about the talking snake, well, simple, Satan is the master of disguise, hence Serpent.
Eve a teaching moment right Vic ?
Vic
Snakes aren't masters of disguise....the cuttlefish is.
Satan disguised/masqueraded as a serpent.
So the mud and fairy spit man and his genetically identical male clone populated the earth? How does that work? Was Steve transgender or hermaphroditic?
Adam was a male ♂ AND Eve was a female ♀
@ Vic
Nope. Steve was created from Adam's rib. Adam's rib contained his DNA, making Steve his identical male clone.
Oh..so you now believe in Creation ?!
@vic: ok so why do you think "god" had to make EVE from adam's "rib"?
if god could make adam from the soil of the earth why not EVE?
could it be that he had already done that to begin with and the female (LILITH) refused to submit to being ruled by adam?
thus the story had to show that female, origin was from male to say that they owned females as they owned their own bodies?
i wonder what benefit having something like that in a story would benefit? it couldn't ever be the lowly males writing it in so women could be treated as property, no never seeing god "inspired" that bs.
@ Vic
LOL, typical weak reasoning. I am asking you a question about your beliefs. You're just dodging my question. How do two genetically identical males populate the earth?
How do you think the RIB became EVE?!
Simply, God created Eve just like He created Adam, and used the rib from Adam — the first human and male half of the union — to found Eve — the second human and female half of the union, to constitute the institution of marriage.
How do you think the RIB became EVE?!
Simply, God created Eve just like He created Adam, and used the rib from Adam — the first human and male half of the union — to found Eve — the second human and female half of the union —, to constitute the institution of marriage.
That's mythology Vic.... fiction, nothing more.
Johnnie Cochran: Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it: That does not make sense! Why would a Wookiee, an eight-foot tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor with a bunch of two-foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a lawyer defending a major record company, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, [approaches and softens] does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests.
The followers of the Abrahamic religions point to the love of their God and the wise rules of interpersonal relationships the bible prescribes as the greatness of their religions. In churches, the passages read are from those sections, the sermons expand on those points.
My issue is there are many other parts of the bible that are glossed over. They contain rules and parables that don't match my idea of moral behavior. Everyone (in the US) is free to adopt their own morals, I just find biblical morality inconsistent, with too many immoral elements. The churches, synagogues, mosques, etc do a good job of brushing those elements under the rug.
One of the the most immoral aspects of the Abrahamic religions is their hierarchy; God, humans, everything else. This assignment of all other living things to serve our needs has created a culture of abuse of nature. I hope it doesn't end up poisoning us permanently, condemning our children to natural demise. This perspective that puts humans apart from animals is not only absurd, it is damaging to our planet, all living things, and us. I'd say that is immoral.
From around the planet wonder if L4H would like this type of law in the US ?
Wife: Saudi blogger recommended for apostasy trial
by Salma Abdelaziz posted on December 26, 2013 02:52PM GMT
A judge in Saudi Arabia has recommended that imprisoned blogger Raif Badawi go before a high court on a charge of apostasy, which would carry the death penalty upon conviction, according to Badawi's wife.
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/12/25/world/meast/saudi-blogger-death-sentence/index.html
Religion does not fit into Maslow's laws of survival.
Top layer, self actualization.
Religion prevents Self Actualization.
I wish God (whichever one) would email me proof of his existence... Although it would probably be put in my spam folder
I'd find a nice opening of the skies and a message on gold plates handed to me pretty good. Or I have a few friends and family members with illnesses that could do with curing. Any time...
If you define a "god" as something someone prays too, I'll personally pray to Tom from Face Book for you. I'm sure he friended you at least once. Of course I'm not convinced that Tom exists.
Back on this topic again... Well, it's better than talking about the Poop I guess, or the stupid redneck duck guy...
Or the chika who doubts her god almost every article, but can't make the logical leap into reality...
@BCS2006 : Why would a perfect all loving, all powerful, all knowing god CREATE the VERY ESSENCE of evil, and would that not indicate that god is evil in nature?
In the philosophical arena, this is known as the Problem of Evil. The arugment is given as:
A) Evil is always bad
B) God created evil
- 1) Evil exists in this world,
- 2) God created all things,
- Therefore, God created evil
Therefore, God does not love his creation or is unaware of the harm that evil does or is not powerful enough to stop evil.
There are many flaws in this argument. Lets start with the minor flaw – God created evil. There is a difference between creating something and creating the mechanism for something. Lets assume for the sake of the argument that God created all matter. This doesn't equate to God creating the atomic bomb. So, being a creator of 'all things' is a similified version of God creating this system that we current reside in. He didn't create the houses, weapons of war, or evil.
Next, lets move on the the major flaw. The intrinsic assumption that evil equates to bad is seriously flawed. Getting an 'F' on a science test isn't bad, but it reveals a flaw in one's knowledge. So, evil CAN be good. In fact, I would posit that it is usually good – because it serves a critical function. That function is to reveal that we ourselves are NOT god and are NOT in control. This in turn leads us to depend upon the one who IS in control.
<><
So...your argument is that evil isn't actually evil, therefore god is good?
@myweightinwords : So...your argument is that evil isn't actually evil, therefore god is good?
My posit is that God is good all the time and that He will use evil that was created by his beings to bring about his will – i.e. for us to join with him in heaven. As many as will accept his proposal.
<><
So, the ends justify the means, basically.
It's okay to murder three innocent children if it brings the mother and father to god?
@myweightinwords : So, the ends justify the means, basically.
You really seem to want to twist things today.
@myweightinwords : It's okay to murder three innocent children if it brings the mother and father to god?
Evaluating this issue is a matter of perspective, isn't it. Define murder. From the humanistic perspective, it is the end of life. From the Godly perspective, it is the beginning of our real life. When we die, we graduate from our trials and enter into a life worth living.
Here's a suggestion MWIW. On the next question you want to ask me, why don't you try to answer it from both sides of the equation. Give it your best shot at giving the most accurate answer from each perspective – i.e. not a flippant one. I know you're smart enough to do it, but I'm not sure you are willing to stretch yourself.
<><
"From the Godly perspective, it is the beginning of our real life. When we die, we graduate from our trials and enter into a life worth living."
Belief...nothing more.
Many religions teach various perspectives on this. You reject all of the others...no reason to accept yours for the same reason you reject the others.
The ONLY way for you to jump to your conclusions, is to abandon knowledge, logic and reason....and you are giving a treatise on doing exactly that.
You really seem to want to twist things today.
I'm not twisting anything. This is exactly what you're saying. If the end result of evil is that a few more souls get to go to heaven, then it isn't evil, it's good. The ends justifies the means.
Evaluating this issue is a matter of perspective, isn't it.
No, not really.
Define murder.
Do I really need to define murder to you?
From the humanistic perspective, it is the end of life. From the Godly perspective, it is the beginning of our real life.
This isn't perspective, it's belief. The end of life on this earth is all we know for certain. Everything after that is faith, belief.
And, you're still justifying the evil based on some belief that good came from it.
When we die, we graduate from our trials and enter into a life worth living.
Or, when we die, life is over.
Or, when we die we rest a while, review what we have left to learn and come back to try again.
Or, when we die, some deity decides for us what we have left to learn and we come back to try again.
All of that is uncertain. We can believe what we want. Does it in anyway justify evil done to get us to that next life?
Here's a suggestion MWIW. On the next question you want to ask me, why don't you try to answer it from both sides of the equation. Give it your best shot at giving the most accurate answer from each perspective – i.e. not a flippant one. I know you're smart enough to do it, but I'm not sure you are willing to stretch yourself.
Oh, L4H, that's pretty damn condescending of you. I have asked the questions, of myself. I examined them, not from BOTH sides of the equation, but from as many sides of it as I could find. Life is not black and white, right and wrong...there are not merely two choices, particularly when discussing something like this.
My question to you is: Do the ends EVER justify the means? Does doing evil for the sake of good make it any less evil? If someone sees evil for what it is, stands by idly to watch evil do it's work, then moves in to try to make something good of the aftermath, is that person not evil himself?
@HIM: ok here is one for you, god created everything yet there wasn't any "evil" until lucifer and the angels turned against god, which mind you the bible never covers when they were even created.
so here is the question; where did lucifer and the angels learn "evil"?
only one of two answers:
1) evil has always been here, because god isn't powerful enough to destroy evil.
2) god created evil when he created the universe, thus god is either a child,or really sick in the head seeing he knows exactly what will happen upon creating evil.
Wow – it sure seems like you're going through a lot of mental gymnastics to avoid the obvious:
1) You claim your God allows free will, but has control to use at his discretion.
2) God does not prevent a young innocent girl from being raped.
Well, maybe if you don't see a young innocent girl being raped as evil, I guess I can understand your twisted logic...
@Billy : God does not prevent a young innocent girl from being raped.
As I pointed out earlier to you, you want for God to become her rescuer / enabler – which a perfect being cannot do.
@Billy : maybe if you don't see a young innocent girl being raped as evil
There are two evils here, the obvious and the other one. Which is better – to go through a rosy life and to end up in hell or to endure such issues and grow closer to God as the result – and entering into heaven as the Bride of Christ?
<><
@HIM: "rosy life and to end up in hell or to endure such issues and grow closer to God as the result – and entering into heaven as the Bride of Christ?"
1) if your god requires us to go through hell here while alive just to avoid hell in the next life, so what's the difference?
hell on earth to a LGBT
@HIM: "rosy life and to end up in hell or to endure such issues and grow closer to God as the result – and entering into heaven as the Bride of Christ?"
1) if your god requires us to go through hell here while alive just to avoid hell in the next life, so what's the difference?
hell on earth to a LGBT teenager is being bullied by christians looney toons trying to "save" him/her by beating and abusing that person everyday of their lives.
so who in that situation is evil? the LGBT teenager or the ones "throwing the first stone"?
is your god truly that sick that we are to suffer twice?
2) thanks but no thanks to being anyone's "bride" while being threatened with burning for all eternity.
L4H: "As I pointed out earlier to you, you want for God to become her rescuer / enabler – which a perfect being cannot do."
Cannot do? So you are placing limitations on what your god can and cannot do, and yet you claim it has discretionary control? That's silly.
L4H: "There are two evils here, the obvious and the other one. Which is better – to go through a rosy life and to end up in hell or to endure such issues and grow closer to God as the result – and entering into heaven as the Bride of Christ?"
Well, you'd have to have some evidence for the existence of hell to convince me of such; therefore, so far, I have no reason to think that a young girl being raped is something that should be endured for any reason. If you claim your god has control and is not using such control to alleviate suffering, then I have no reason to believe that if it actually exists in the manner that your brand of Christianity holds, that it is not immoral beyond any kind of cruelty that man has come up with.
"lets move on the the major flaw"
The REAL major flaw is the premise there is a god. One would first need to show that one exists, and then you would need to show you have some way of knowing the mind of that god. The rest is simply mental masturbation.
Yeppers, many awards for the Fundy Method of Inquiry & Verification have been awarded on these blogs for that nasty habit.
@igaftr : The REAL major flaw is the premise there is a god.
One should never claim a flaw unless one is willing to provide evidence to support such a claim.
<><
The Bible is the claim. Those merely echoing the same claims are the ones who have yet to come up with anything proving the supernatural assertions from it. The onus is on them. I guess that's why they keep spinning in the hamster wheel – there's nothing really new to tell; no new defenses.
Once again YOU calim there is a god...I say prove it.
I made no claims, simply aid your claim is unfounded...are there gods? we do not know, we have no evidence of any, and have no way to test.
Your premise is flawed by starting with there are any gods.
You keep trying to d3efelect back to me when YOU are making the claims...not me.
You will never find ANY answers if you don't start employing LOGIC , stop putting words in other peoples mouths, and back up YOUR claims.
to igaftr,the ongoing research for the existence of God in the University of Illinois is the use of a very fast and powerfull computer,The Nautilus,this research had proved that history has direction ,and through exhaustve and objective analysis had shown that History is a reflection of His will.Its not very conclusive yet,but with the advent of a very powerfull quantum computer which is millions of times faster in the near future,they can go back farther in the past history in inputing datas .
L4H,
The basis is, God is omniscient. When He created the mechanism for evil, He already knew that evil would emerge. He knew atomic weapons would emerge, He knew airplanes would be flown into the WTC on Sept 11, etc.
Since He knew every detail of all evil acts that have happened and will happen at the moment of creation it is no different than if He directly created those evils.
@bostontola : Since He knew every detail of all evil acts that have happened and will happen at the moment of creation it is no different than if He directly created those evils.
What's the difference between creating and controlling? Second, do you think it is impossible for good to come out of the result of an evil act?
<><
Gotta go for now!
L4H,
When a person bakes a cake, they put the ingredients into a container, apply heat, and in a prescribed time, a cake come out. The baker didn't control every chemical reaction, but hey knew a cake would come out. They intended a cake and got one. An omniscient God would know what would happen with evil to every detail, it had to be intended.
Humans are very resilient. Bad things hone our resilience. That is good for our survival.
Of course "good" can come from an "evil" act.
We learned a great deal medically from the holocaust. The experiments done on humans DID yeild results that were and are useful to the scientific and medical communities.
Does that lesson the "evil" of the act? Does the end justify the means?
Your god created everything including "evil" , supposedly with the full knowledge of the consequences...so what you are in effect saying, is god wanted the holocaust to happen, since we would gain some small knowledge because of it. I say your god is as much evil as he is good, as much love as he is hate...since he is all things, and all things are in a tenuous balance, your god must be at the center of that balance.
Basically your god is whatever your imagination wants him to be (including being "him").
None of that changes the fact that there is not one shred of evidence that there are any gods.
your argument here is the centerpiece of the new faith,if God is omnipresent ,all powerfull and all knowing ,then He could be the source also of evil works,but since everything is Him,there is no devil or evil,everythimg has a purpose beyond our present human comprehension,The only plausible explaination is that its beyond our understanding due to our limited intellectual capacity,however evolution will guide us.So evolution is the manfistations of His will and that is reflected in history.And so in the future,we as the implementor of His will ,shall take a greater direct role and responsibilty in history,in shaping our historical destiny,with out directly knowing this,thats what we had been doiing ever since the dawn of civilization.Thats Panthrotheism.
so if we have to interprete what you are saying that all of us is one ,one origin with him since the start of the big bang ,from pure energy ,to matter,to conscious beings,then to be what we will be as his will dictates through evolution ,and the process is what we call history,then for what?is it a cycle or infinity.will we be back to energy after a Big Implosion.I think in a proven scientific argument without mythology this explainatiom is the most plausible.
i think we will be back to energy just like the formation of a super black hole,that is from a scientific point of view
after clarifying the validity of this evolving faith based on the material process,the big challenge now is for us humans a coresponding development in the spiritual aspect of our existence,though we are confident of His guidance through evolution,we with our limited insights and intellegence will be able to develop and come up with guide lines in our moral lives.
L4H,
"Lets assume for the sake of the argument that God created all matter. This doesn't equate to God creating the atomic bomb."
Yes, in a deterministic or probabilistic universe with an all knowing god it does mean exactly that.
"The intrinsic assumption that evil equates to bad is seriously flawed. Getting an 'F' on a science test isn't bad, but it reveals a flaw in one's knowledge. So, evil CAN be good. In fact, I would posit that it is usually good – because it serves a critical function. That function is to reveal that we ourselves are NOT god and are NOT in control. This in turn leads us to depend upon the one who IS in control."
First, if you are trying to say that evil serves a purpose for god it seems to me you are implying he created it...or it is a happy accident that we/satan created something so useful. Second, you are saying it tells us god is the one in control, yet you've already told us just the opposite, that god didn't create evil. This logic increases the power of humans. Even if this made any sense, there would be plenty of better eays to get across a message about who is in contol (like creating humans who already understand that) without making a world in which people suffer now and can be sent into eternal punish,ent.
Saraswati
And the Rockie Mountains with the help of humans built the Atomic Bomb !
Rhe rocky mountains certainly were a contributing component. The expressions "built" and "created" however, are usually reserved for enti.ties we believe to be conscious and to hold intent, so I guess it depends what you believe is the extent of consciousnessin the universe.
How the Earth Works – How the Rockies Built the A Bomb .by the Science channel explains it well.
NO NO NO NO.
Lets put it in Human terms here. Hitler created the 3rd Reich, and the Final Solution. Hitler therefore created the environment for the Holocaust AND the Mechanism (just as god created the environment and mechanism of human evil). Hitler was not at the camps slaughtering Jews and other "undesirables", but his troops were. We, as a global society, blame Hitler for the Holocaust. Hitler does not get a pass, why does god? Hitler was no different, he created the environment and the mechanism for the Holocaust, and used his "creations" (the Nazi army) to execute his design.
What you are saying is that because Hitler did not personally build the camps, round up his undesirables, and kill them, he is not ultimately responsible, but instead his 'creations" are responsible. This is false. Had Hitler not created an environment where that kind of heinous behavior was both accepted and encouraged, the Holocaust never happens. If god never created an environment where evil has the opportunity (some would say its encouraged) to flourish, evil never happens.
Furthermore, why does an all powerful, benevolent god require the use of human abuses of free will resulting in evil (all of which he would know about in advance) to realize his ultimate design? He could snap his fingers and make everything work the way he wants, without anyone suffering on earth, and without EVER UNNECCESSARILY PLACING THE SOULS OF HIS "ULTIMATE CREATION" IN ANY DANGER WHATSOEVER.
Excellent comparison. Sometimes there's a place for a good Hitler analogy.
its VERY rare that I would pull out a Hitler analogy, but in this case, I think it works.
I just dont get why god gets a pass philosophically when we immediately condemn a human when they do pretty much the same thing but on a much smaller scale.
Heck, look at the philippines. That country is christian bordering on fanatcism, generally speaking as a culture, they are probably more christ like that any I have encountered, yet god just flat out destroys large portions of that country pretty much every year.
God in His will through history had into reality seemingly illogical or cruel events to happen in our world,but no one is spared if the purpose is for the good of humanity,wars pestilence even the holocust has a reason and purpose beyond our comprehension at our times but will be reveald in the future,The Phillipine catasthrophy for example is viewed by some as Gods punishment,we experienced the brunt of natures punishing power but it also unveiled the true feelings and concern of the whole world in helping us materially and spiiritually by aiding and consoling us that was unprecedented in history,The whole world had demostrated ,to me ,a kind of humanitarian concern and love that trancends races and culture,A kind of demonstration by higher being the we humans is one with Him.The cost of human lives and misery is nothing in history compared to its positve historical consequences
dev,
"The cost of human lives and misery is nothing in history compared to its positve historical consequences"
Well done. Just one more Christian who doesn't follow the critical GOLDEN RULE. Keep the HYPOCRISY going.
L4H,
You left out that it is commonly claimed of Christians that God is
a) All powerful
b) All knowing
c) All good.
Yet we have evil in the world. If God is all-powerful–think about what this means. ALL-powerful. That means there is no free will. There cannot be. His will is absolute. He has all of it. Anything–ANYTHING that happens in the universe is by his will, or at a minimum, by his acquiescence. He has full veto power over anything and everything that happens, even every thought we have. He also knows every thought we have, and allows it, or disallows thoughts we might have otherwise have had. So we are really just puppets to his will in effect. And if he is ALL-knowing, then he doesn't just the make sort of mundane predictions that any human could make–such as "you will eat something tomorrow". He knows every last detail about what we will eat, how we will fix it, how many bites it will take to chew and swallow, how long it will take us to digest it, and so on. This goes way, way beyond mere "prediction"–this is absolute knowledge, and the obvious implication is that it is all pre-determined, especially since God's will is in all things.
So anything evil that happens is God's will.
Now to your second argument–that evil is really good. Well, obviously this is Orwellian. In this case, we cannot hold Hitler responsible, he was carrying out God's will, and the Holocaust was really good. Right? This argument is illogical, feeble, and has a desperate air to it. It smacks of the moral relativism that atheists are usually accused of. Furthermore, if God is all-powerful, he could surely engineer things so that the good can happen without the evil. It should not have been necessary to allow the Nazis to slaughter millions of Jews. Can you honestly tell me that any good that came of that outweighs the full horror of the Holocaust? This is one of the worst morality arguments I've ever heard.
It can only make sense if there is no god, and good and bad things happen on their own, or through the actions of people, and it is up to us to seek actual justice and morality in the here and now–the only reality we have.
Precisely,that is what we meant by all powefull,our free will is part of his will ,but in a scale beyond your wildest imaginetion,the truth and reality will be discerned even after your lifetime.what is important is you have serve him.It is your contribution to the realization of His will or history that is central to reality.The world wars might be blamed to influential world leaders but at that time no one yet understood the reasons,but history revealed that today how the U.S.became influential world power to influence the world and the realization of the U.S. based CNN program on religious blogs where we are here now to change the course of religious history,This is just one example of the countless or billons of events per second or more happening through out the world that transpired every day without our conscious participation.but that will be in the future
Wow... just... wow. I read the OP and the ensuing conversation a few times and I'm still shaking my head.
Simple things first: getting an F on a test is not evil, so that comparison serves no purpose.
Now to deeper, scarier, creepier things: There was a poster that sounded a lot like L4H, always tried to say deific inspired murder was, in actuality, 'justice'. Can't remember his/her name, but this thread is sounding a lot like that. I asked a question of this poster that was very much like the one myweight posed to L4H and unshockingly got pretty much the same response... 'oh, well, define murder and you have to put it in perspective'.
This is scary and creepy for a few reasons. The first is that you portray your deity, the one you voted for as the thing you'd like most to spend eternity, as nothing more than a murderer. A rather sloppy one at that, which is weird considering that it would have had eternity to perfect the art. Oh well, I'm sure it'll get it right one day.
The second is that you really are saying that the ends justify the means and no amount of wiggling is going to get you off that particular hook. No murder, no catastrophe is a bad thing as long as you can convince yourself that, truly, your deity works in mysterious ways. How does one achieve this? Freakin' simple, one merely repeats to one's self 'my deity works in mysterious ways' until the vacant, slightly unhinged look of a true believer overtakes one's facial features.
The third is that it is utterly incomprehensible to me how you can tout a deity as the be-all-end-all and it can come up with no other way of dealing with issues other than to smash, kill, maim, destroy. Having a bad day? Kill something. Deific hang-nail? Kill something else. A box of puppies? Frick, kill em all!
The last one that I feel like talking about right now is this: I told that other poster that it was scary that he or she could start justifying evil acts because that's less than a half-step away from being able to do those acts. I'll say the same thing to you, L4H.
Now, if you could indulge me, please answer myweight's question with a simple Yes/No. Thanks.
The author and the atheists organization he references agree that the more controversial methods get them more public exposure. So then doesn't it make sense to keep using those tactics just to have a dialogue? If they take less controversial measures, then why would anyone put them on their broadcast? Besides, the ad the author suggests doesn't necessarily encompass how many atheists, including myself, behave. I celebrate the non-religious portions of Christmas. I have dinner with family and exchange gifts, I just don't go to church. Also, it seems to me that there are many more Keep Christ in Christmas signs and banners, some even displayed by local govts such as in Pitman, NJ, 10 mins from my home, than the keep Christ out of Christmas paraphernilia.
Happy New Year !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXzLV2OCrt8#t=0
Published on Dec 20, 2013
An ad appearing on a Times Square electronic billboard, from all of us at CFI. Part of our Living without Religion campaign, with more at http://livingwithoutreligion.org
@sam stone : Still waiting on an answer to that free will question.
What free will question?
<><
if god knows what i am going to do before i do it, and god cannot be wrong, how does free will exist?
@sam stone : if god knows what i am going to do before i do it, and god cannot be wrong, how does free will exist?
There is a difference between KNOWING and CONTROLLING. For example, when I was watching the 9-11 attacks on TV, I KNEW the planes were about to hit one of the towers. However, that didn't put me in the pilot's seat of that plane.
<><
Oh, so L4H, you think God is a watchmaker, not controlling, but just watching the things he set in motion? Then maybe the books we wrote about his are wrong and he won't "control" anything when we die as well? Well I guess that's one theory.
Typical evasive christian answer
For an omniscient being, there is no being wrong
Do you claim to be omniscient?
So, for an omniscient being, knowing IS controlling
@sam stone : So, for an omniscient being, knowing IS controlling
How do you know this to be true?
@Anthony Crispino : you think God is a watchmaker, not controlling, but just watching the things he set in motion?
Why do you think the Law of the Excluded Middle is applicable in this case?
<><
Is that about Middle Earth? I didn't see the second Hobbit movie yet.
@Anthony Crispino : Is that about Middle Earth? I didn't see the second Hobbit movie yet.
The Law of the Excluded Middle holds that some situations are either/or and cannot be both. For example, a light could be on or off, but never both. To the point, why couldn't God be both watchmaker and controller (i.e. sometimes watchmaker, other times controller and yet others both)?
<><
i believe it to be true by an exercise of logic
if god knows what i am going to do before i do it, and god cannot be wrong, then i have no choice but to do what god knows i am going to do
let's make it simple for you
if i apparently have two choices, A or B, and god KNOWS i am going to choose B, what are the chances that I am going to choose A and prove an OMNISCIENT god wrong?
I see, L4H. Well if I operated a shop like that, I would step in at the right time and prevent a young girl from being raped. Just sayin'.
@sam stone : i believe it to be true by an exercise of logic if god knows what i am going to do before i do it, and god cannot be wrong, then i have no choice but to do what god knows i am going to do
Lets exercise your gift of logic further. If God is outside of time, then he know what you're going to do BEFORE, AFTER and DURING your act of doing it? So where did I go wrong with this statement?
<><
i don't understand your "outside of time" characterization
now answer my question
a. does god know what i am going to do before i do it?
b. if the answer to a. is "yes", how does free wil exist?
Or if I ran a shop like the one God has, I would have prevented 9-11. I think I see now why some of those smart atheist guys were saying God is an immoral God.
@sam stone : i don't understand your "outside of time" characterization
No wonder your conclusion is flawed. You've ignored a basic premise in the equation. If God is outside of time (i.e. He created time so he must be outside of it), then he simultaneously has knowledge before, after and during every event that ever occurs.
<><
If God ...simultaneously has knowledge before, after and during every event that ever occurs, then he knows what i am going to do before I do it and free will does not exist
It is YOUR conclusion that is flawed, Live4Him
@sam stone : then he knows what i am going to do before I do it and free will does not exist
I know that you will wake up tomorrow morning. Therefore, you have no free will and are a robot. I control your life! 😉 Ain't control great!
<><
Again, more illogical self serving blather
You are not omniscient
Free will and an omniscient god are incompatible
God punishing people for what he KNEW
....for what he KNEW they were going to do makes your god a vindictive, petty pr1ck
Prediction does not equal control.
in the case of an omnisciet being, it does
Well I'm still on the fence as to whether or not free will actually exists or it is just an alusion. But I definitly feel like I make my own decisions, and that's good enough for me at the moment.
Its really sad how much hate and idotic put downs on both sides by athesist and those who are religious. Its just plan stupid and a waste of time, if you believe in god or buddah or allah or anyother good thats great for you and if you do not believe in a god thats great too, Whats one big problem that i cant understand is why people are so narrow minded on both sides of the specturm and even within different religions. The saying knowledge is power is a really good statement instead of just choosing one side weather it be religious or atheisim take time to learn and gain knowledge and insight to what others believe in that doesnt mean that you have to take those belief for yourself but people need to stop being so narrow minded and broaden your horizon.
Belief has nothing to do with knowledge.
Belief has EVERYTHING to do with knowledge. The facts only take a person so far, and the rest is left to conclusions which are based upon belief.
That is where SOME of you problem is. Once you leave knowledge...it isn't knowledge...it becomes belief. Belief is thinking things you do not know. The two are separate things. kknowledge is what we know...belief is what you want to believe.
That is one of the biggest problems with religious people....the inability to separate belief from knowledge.
The facts only take a person so far, and the rest is fantasy
Live4Him: Still waiting on an answer to that free will question. Are you going to respond, or be yet another cowardly chrstian and hide when presented with logic
Come on, boy, step up
@igaftr : That is one of the biggest problems with religious people....the inability to separate belief from knowledge.
Lets give you a test. Do you have knowledge that you will live out today – or do you believe it.
>
I was once listening to a late night am radio cll in show about cosmology, very riveting radio. They had an astrophysicist as the guest and he was being grilled by a religious person. The astrophysicist was describing two theories. The caller asked, "Which one do you believe?", to which the physicist replied,"They are both plausible." the caller could not wrap thier head around not choosing one of two possible theories. We don't always have to draw a conclusion for the sake of drwaing a conclusion.
neither. I do not know if I will live out today, and know that there are enough things that COULD happen that would prevent me from living out today.
Your question shows an inability to separate belief from knowledge again.
@lunchbreaker : We don't always have to draw a conclusion for the sake of drwaing a conclusion.
You're right – at least about impersonal theories. However, everyone of us are constantly drawing conclusions based upon limited facts – this chair will hold me because it has always held me before and for my next vacation I'll go to Disney or What should I fix for dinner tonight?. All of these are based upon limited facts that lead to a faith-based conclusion.
<><
Except there are no "limited facts" regarding god..... nothing, zero evidence.
"and the rest is left to conclusions which are based upon belief."
Isn't it just as easy to say the rest is opinion?
@igaftr : neither. I do not know if I will live out today, and know that there are enough things that COULD happen that would prevent me from living out today
So, you just drift through life without a plan? You don't work, live in a home, pay bills, etc. but live like an animal without inferring anything beyond the moment. Do you REALLY expect me to believe that whopper?
<><
Of course I have a plan. Just because I don't know what is going to happen, doesn't mean I don't make plans. Seriously? How old are you that you would speculate that?
What point are you trying to mkae, since you are wildly deviating from the original post?
Instead of trying to lead someone to a point with flawed premises and lies, why not just say it?
@igaftr : Of course I have a plan.
Exactly – You have a plan based upon your belief in what will happen, which is in turn based upon your knowledge of past events.
@igaftr : What point are you trying to mkae, since you are wildly deviating from the original post?
We've just come the full circle, proving my original posit. Thus, there is no need to discuss this any further. Belief has EVERYTHING to do with knowledge.
<><
Like I said, opinion is opinion. But I think there is a lot more consensus about the idea that the earth revolves around the sun since that idea came out, than that some guy walked across some water somewheres. You know there are some places on earth where the water level changes by several feet between the rainy season and the dry season? True. It gets so bad that the fish just lay there and die in the mud.
In what weird logic world you live in did you just come full circle....you never even started on the circle. You claim belief has to do with knowledge. IT DOESN'T...belief takes over where knowledge leaves off. There are things we know....not believe we know. Then there are things we believe...why do we believe? because we do not know.
The war on Christmas, the war on Jesus, and the war on marriage and family
all emanate from satan's workshop.
satan rejoices when the seeds of lies and corruption are sown by his
acolytes in the mass and social media.
When the King of Kings returns, the vineyard will be pruned and the branches bearing
rotten fruit will be pruned and burned.
Heed the call and repent!
That is ridiculous and shows the extreme danger belief in these myths can bring.
There is no satan...it is a metaphor for the potential "evil" any given person has, just like the Jesus character is the metaphoric "good" potential any given person possesses.
There are no demons, devils, or supernatural creatures of any kind.
Spreading fear of things that do not exist is the EXACT reason religious beliefs are so damaging to humanity.
I hope you either join us in reality, or you get some non-religious professional help.
Luke 10:18,
Jesus said, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."
Jesus said it...I believe it...that settles it!
Jesus allegedly said it.
You believe it...and that is the sad part.
Characters in book say many things...do you believe everything Harry Potter said too? That is also scripture....since someone wrote it down.
igaftr : Jesus allegedly said it.
And you believe that 'Jesus allegedly said it, but couldn't because he never existed.'. And that is the sad part.
more lies...
I did not say he never existed.
What is true is no onekknows if Jesus said ANY of what he is attributed to.
Stop trying to put words in my mouth, since many of your words are lies....see above example.
@Doug "Jesus said it...I believe it...that settles it!"
All that settles is that you confuse reality with mythology.
@igaftr : What is true is no onekknows if Jesus said ANY of what he is attributed to.
And what is the evidence that he DIDN'T have the attributes that the Bible documented?
<><
L4H
Now you want to go down the path of the logical fallacy?
Prove wild claims DIDN"T happen...the onus is on the ones making the claim that it DID happen, the default is it didn't unless proven.
Can you ask for something that does NOT violate logic...or is it too far for you to go to use ACTUAL logic and reason.
@igaftr : Prove wild claims DIDN"T happen...the onus is on the ones making the claim that it DID happen
The responsibility is on the claimer – i.e. you. The Bible is the evidence that it DID happen, and now you want to claim it didn't happen. Next, you'll be claiming that the Twin Towers didn't fall on 9-11 and claiming that I'm going down the path of a logic fallacy when I point out the news reports that reveal that they did fall on that date.
<><
no...how many times must you be told for it to sink in....I am not making any claims, YOU ARE so the onus is on yopu to prove it...the bible is not proof of the bible....proof requires verifiable corroborated evidence , not just "the bible says this and I know it because I read it in the bible."
By your logic, everything ever written in any book, is true.
9/11 happend and there is correborated verifiable evidence all over the place , no so with the magic claims of your often proven wrong book.
I would say the Bible makes the claims and the onus is on those who just say those same things are true and can't provide the evidence for what they are sayin'. Just sayin'.
L4H, The responsibility is on the claimer – i.e. you. The Bible is the evidence that it DID happen, and now you want to claim it didn't happen.
If the bible is "evidence" then so must the Koran be evidence. And the Bhagavad Gita. And Harry Potter. The Lord of the Rings. Frankenstein?
A book is not evidence that all written in it is true and actually happened.
There is no "War" on these things, at least in this country. Stop being such a drama queen.
And yet, here you are attacking Christianity.
How was that an attack on Christianity? Criticism is not an attack.
@tallulah13 : How was that an attack on Christianity? Criticism is not an attack.
What's the difference in your mind?
<><
A dissagreement with your personal beliefs is not an attack. Not so hard to understand.
@Harry Pancake : A dissagreement with your personal beliefs is not an attack. Not so hard to understand.
The way that you state it, I would agree. However, this is a mischaracterization of the reality. The reality is that atheists seek out religious themed forums to 'disagree' with Christians. By any other name, this is an attack.
<><
Yet here is a story addressed to atheists. And here you are attacking atheists. So is this a war on atheism?
God created satan. Why?
You ask God?
People always ask why is this, why is that, tragedies and everything, unfairness, etc. And they always blame God, saying God's plang is unfair whatsoever.
Then, I will ask. Who are you, MERE HUMAN, to question the AUTHORITY of GOD?
I don't question the authority of god, I question the EXSISTENCE of god. While we're at it, show evidence that your god exsists.
I was given a functioning brain, hence I am allowed to question pretty much anything.
My question boils down to: Why would a perfect all loving, all powerful, all knowing god CREATE the VERY ESSENCE of evil, and would that not indicate that god is evil in nature?
If a human being devised a mechanism that tricks people, tortures them en mass for being tricked, and then implemented that method, would they not be evil? Hitler figured out a way to exterminate people based purely on a choice they made by free will (their religious affiliation), he only killed a few million people and he is considered the embodiment of human evil. God has basically created an eternity long concentration camp on steroids full of BILLIONS of people that can NEVER escape the pain and suffering it inflicts, and he gets a pass?
I think I am well within my rights to ask that question.
God did not create Satan as Satan.
He created him first as Lucifer, the angel of light. Then Lucifer wanted to sit on God's throne that is why he was casted out from Heaven.
I can also see the Evils in this world, however I can see more the Goodness of God and what he have done in my life. I am not sure if you will understand me at all but I don't blame you. Tt is just the LOVE of God is so big and wide that it overwhelms me. His knowledge and power and might is just so unfathomable I couldn't understand everything ^^
Come on now
Three characteristics of god: Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent.
God created Lucifer, knowing he would challenge god's authority. God created Satan knowingly.
So Eve could have a really scary pearl necklace.
still on your knees, are you doogie?
No doubt that Satan has a workshop. The elves there make evil appliances and all kinds of things. My wife's groin doctor knows a guy who had a Satanic refrigerator that made his beer taste foul. True. His wife had to go out and get really pricey beer to compensate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JuSfRgh0Vo
"In the spirit of generosity, compassion, and kindness so often associated with this time of year, let’s ditch the billboards and build relationships of goodwill." The author has a good point here. The money spent on these billboards could have fed or clothed a homeless family, which by the way would also have gone towards putting Christ back into Christmas.
No christ needed in christmas when it is a holiday based on pagan traditions. A holiday meant to convert pagans. There is no evidence to point to baby jesus being born any time sooner than spring (if he existed at all). Giving of gifts stood long before christianity existed and will stand long after it is gone.
thats why we have to debate more and realize that our diferrences are just superficial misunderstanding,that to be united to a common belief in him can be logical and true only with the belief that we are evolving to attain a better relationship for all of us.Proven by science that all humans evolved from one parent,who evolved from lower forms of life,who evolved from pure energy through the big bang and guided by the spirit or conciousness of His Will.
Who is this male you are referring to? Which one of the many gods?
Who's will? No science has ever been able to see any evidence of any gods whatsoever, so no one could possibly know if there is a god or gods, nor what $ex if any that god has.
Trying to mix science and myth doesn't work. Science represents reality, belief in deities is in the realm of imagination.
to igaftr,below is a post to explain that the proof or evidence of a scientific proof of the existence of God(Him) is forthcoming.find my name
neved
"to igaftr,below is a post to explain that the proof or evidence of a scientific proof of the existence of God(Him) is forthcoming.find my name"
Hilarious....There is no such thing pending. By all means post it, so I can show your error inlogic and/or reason. There is no "proof". There is only the belief.
you are asking whose will that this is happening our discussion or call that informal debate,Thats Gods will through me and you.We are now enlightened by Him to publicized or globalized this issues so it can be resolved,and through dialectical process the real truth wiil be sythesized.maybe we are at the opposite sides of the world geographically,but his Will that Engineers and scientists developed the internet for us today to interact and resolved this evolving process of change.You and I and the netizens are just part of this historic process of change,the past generations had never had inkling that today this is happening.And the reason is His will,
neved
Where is you evidence any god exists?
Where then is the evidence that your god is a "he"?
THEN, where is your evidence that it is "his will"?
Many religions make many claims...no evidence anywhere....
precisely why you ask the question because you expect from me an answer,I am at the disadvantage ,now because in the Phillipines its past midnight,you are probably taking your lunch,ill answer you tommorow my new friend in the web.
Atheists are blinded that is why they don't believe in God.
Atheists don't see evidence for your god or any other god, that is why we don't believe. The ones blinded are those who accept that their god exists merely on faith and one 2000+ year old outdated, fallacious book.
Neither of you can tap God on the shoulder right now and you both can agree on that.
Neither of them can get their hands on a leprechaun's pot of gold either. What's your point?
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God - 2 Corinthians 4:4
the god of this age is Satan, by the way. Sounds funny though but I never blame an atheist that he does not believe, as he is blind.
What "sounds funny" is you believe a mythical character to be real.
Rio Lee: Nice to see you use the only book that speaks of your god to defend your god. Most Atheists were christian but opening our eyes and seeking more information outside of the bible has lead to the conclusion that there simply is not enough evidence to substantiate a belief in your god. The bible is full of holes from the beginning to the end and it is the only book that details your god and yet it still doesn't prove your god exists.
If one is blinded it is he who believes on faith alone and doesn't care about the information outside of the book.
I believe in God because of Faith indeed but it is not because I have read the Bible that I had faith. I believed first in God, had Faith first then the Bible strengthened my Faith. It is just that I couldn't have any reason to look and care about what is outside the book. There is this joy in my heart living with God. and his Amazing Love and I couldn't ask for more.
You believe in god because you were taught about this god, no-one is born believing. If your parents had of been Jehovah, you'd be worshiping that gos; had they been pagan you'd be worshiping those gods; etc.
Faith is not something to brag about having...it basically tells one that you don't care if there is evidence to support what you believe.
You believe in god because you were taught about this god, no-one is born believing. If your parents had of been Jehovah, you'd be worshiping that gos; had they been pagan you'd be worshiping those gods; etc.
Faith is not something to brag about having...it basically tells one that you don't care if there is evidence to support what you believe.
theists are delusional, that is why they do believe in god
I don't think so, you can just call me Mad. Madly in Love with Jesus.
i wanna get down on my knees and start pleasing jesus! i want to feel his salvation all over my face!
Just keep doing what you are doing...eventually the atheist will create more public disapproval of their hateful and mean spirited tactics.
The vile "atheists." Last I heard, they don't believe leprechaunists either. For shame.
If Leprechauns were just an old word for aliens would you believe in them then?
Not without evidence!
krhodes: really? as opposed to those loving christians threatening non believers with hell?
You mean like the billboard that says members of a certain spiritual philosophy are not citizens?
Or the one that implies they are more likely to kill people?
Or the one that says they are inciting civil war?
Or the one that says they are terrorists?
Or the one that says they are treasonous?
Wait...those were pro christian billboards about atheists. My bad
krhodes
"hateful and mean spirited tactics."
The atheists have taken the example from the christians.
It was the christians who forced prayer into OUR schools.
It was the christians who hijacked the Pleadge of Allegience.
It was the christains who hijacked the national motto, and now print that lie on our money.
It was the christians who passed laws restricting the rights of atheists.
It is the christians who continue to try to force their dogma get teached to everyone in our public schools.
It was the christians who passed all of the blue laws.
And you claim the atheists are using spiteful tactics when we try to stand up against the christian tyranny?
Try a history lesson.