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December 23rd, 2013
03:29 PM ET

A Christmas apology, and the seeds of hope

Opinion by Rachel Held Evans, Special to CNN

(CNN) - This week we celebrate Christmas, and as a Christian, I want to say I’m sorry.

I’m sorry that this season has become about fights over manger scenes on public property, about complaining when clerks say, “Happy Holidays,” instead of “Merry Christmas,” about rampant commercialism and faux persecution.

I’m sorry that Christians in the United States can be so entitled when we’ve long enjoyed majority status, when we can be so blind to our own privilege.

It is ironic, really, because in the church calendar, the seasons of Advent and Christmas call us to reflect upon and celebrate what Christians believe was the most radical act of humility of all time - the incarnation.

The doctrine of the incarnation holds that the God of the universe, in his love for humanity, emptied himself of his power and became human, like us, in the form of Jesus.

The word incarnation literally means “to make into flesh” and refers to the apostle John’s teaching that “(t)he Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us” (John 1:14).

“No one has ever seen God,” John explains, but Jesus “has made him known.”

In other words, if you want to know what God is like, look at Jesus -

Jesus, who was born as an oppressed minority in an occupied land,

Jesus who was an immigrant,

Jesus, who surrounded himself with the poor, the sick, the marginalized and the “untouchables,”

Jesus who was criticized by the religious for hanging out with sinners,

Jesus who treated women with dignity and respect,

Jesus who taught his disciples to love their enemies, to give without expecting anything in return, to overcome evil with love,

Jesus who suffered,

Jesus who wept,

Jesus who - while hanging on a Roman cross - said, “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.”

Quaker theologian Elton Trueblood put it this way: “The historic Christian doctrine of the divinity of Christ does not simply mean that Jesus is like God. It is far more radical than that. It means that God is like Jesus.”

It means that God suffers, God forgives, God fellowships with the poor, God cares for the sick, God loves His enemies.

Even as a lifelong Christian, I struggle with doubts about God. I struggle to make sense of the violence in the world, the violence in the Bible, the violence in my own heart. I don’t have all the answers.

But even when there’s nothing left to my faith but a little seed of hope, that hope is in the incarnation, in the radical teaching that God loved us enough to become like us, and that when God wanted to show us what he was like, God showed us Jesus.

Rachel Held Evans is the author of "A Year of Biblical Womanhood" and "Evolving in Monkey Town." Evans blogs at rachelheldevans.com, and the views expressed in this column belong to her.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Belief • Bible • Christianity • Christmas • Faith • Holidays • Opinion

soundoff (2,872 Responses)
  1. Actual scientist (not an internet atheist's poor understanding of science)

    “I believe in God. It makes no sense to me to assume that the Universe and our existence is just a cosmic accident, that life emerged due to random physical processes in an environment which simply happened to have the right properties. As a Christian I begin to comprehend what life is all about through belief in a Creator, some of whose nature was revealed by a man born about 2000 years ago.”

    –Antony Hewish, winner of the 1974 Nobel Prize in Physics for his discovery of pulsars.

    December 27, 2013 at 5:00 pm |
    • Observer

      Too bad we can't ask him if God teleported animals from Australia, for instance, to be on the ark.

      December 27, 2013 at 5:02 pm |
      • Yea

        We get it! You don't like Christianity. Not everyone who opposes internet atheism is a Christian. There is a reason why atheists and Christians go to the same message board: they are both obsessed with God and that is all they ever talk about they are both obsessed with God and that is all they ever talk about they are both obsessed with God and that is all they ever talk about they are both obsessed with God and that is all they ever talk about they are both obsessed with God and that is all they ever talk about they are both obsessed with God and that is all they ever talk about they are both obsessed with God and that is all they ever talk about they are both obsessed with God and that is all they ever talk about they are both obsessed with God and that is all they ever talk about they are both obsessed with God and that is all they ever talk about they are both obsessed with God and that is all they ever talk about they are both obsessed with God and that is all they ever talk about they are both obsessed with God and that is all they ever talk about they are both obsessed with God and that is all they ever talk about they are both obsessed with God and that is all they ever talk about they are both obsessed with God and that is all they ever talk about they are both obsessed with God and that is all they ever talk about they are both obsessed with God and that is all they ever talk about they are both obsessed with God and that is all they ever talk about they are both obsessed with God and that is all they ever talk about they are both obsessed with God and that is all they ever talk about they are both obsessed with God and that is all they ever talk about they are both obsessed with God and that is all they ever talk about they are both obsessed with God and that is all they ever talk about they are both obsessed with God and that is all they ever talk about they are both obsessed with God and that is all they ever talk about they are both obsessed with God and that is all they ever talk about they are both obsessed with God and that is all they ever talk about they are both obsessed with God and that is all they ever talk about they are both obsessed with God and that is all they ever talk about .

        December 27, 2013 at 5:12 pm |
        • In Santa we trust

          If you could articulate the case for a god, specifically explaining why your god, you wouldn't get so emotional.

          December 27, 2013 at 5:17 pm |
        • Nope

          I don't believe in God. I bust internet atheist balls.

          December 27, 2013 at 5:24 pm |
    • Cpt. Obvious

      Can you provide a list of scientists who have proved god's existence? thanks. It's one thing to BELIEVE that electrons move in quantized orbits around an atomic nucleus, but it's another thing entirely to prove it.

      December 27, 2013 at 5:06 pm |
      • Mr Atheist Know-it-All

        Here is my list of scientists who have proved there is no God:

        .

        December 27, 2013 at 5:13 pm |
        • Happy Atheist

          Wow, that is a short list. How does it compare to the list of people who have proved there is a God?

          December 27, 2013 at 6:23 pm |
  2. Fact

    There's no real conflict between science and religion, only between extreme views on the part of both.

    December 27, 2013 at 4:49 pm |
    • Cpt. Obvious

      It depends upon the claim being made by the religious person or religion. For example: if your religion says that the earth experienced a world wide flood, then it is wrong and science is correct.

      December 27, 2013 at 4:53 pm |
      • Fact

        “I believe in God, who can respond to prayers, to whom we can give trust and without whom life on this earth would be without meaning (a tale told by an idiot). I believe that God has revealed Himself to us in many ways and through many men and women, and that for us here in the West the clearest revelation is through Jesus and those that have followed him.”

        –Sir Nevill Mott, recipient of the 1977 Nobel Prize in Physics for his research on the magnetic and electrical properties of noncrystalline semiconductors.

        December 27, 2013 at 4:58 pm |
        • Cpt. Obvious

          What does that response have to do with my reply? Are you just spamming to avoid meaningful discussion?

          December 27, 2013 at 5:01 pm |
        • Tom, Tom, the Other One

          What are Mr. Mott's feelings on the magnetic and electrical properties of spiritual bodies?

          December 27, 2013 at 5:03 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      If people want to become mystical and emotional over the amazing aspects of nature and express that in religious language, then fine. But religion directs people to the supernatural – something there is no reason to believe in.

      December 27, 2013 at 5:00 pm |
    • Alias

      Ther are several things in the bible that can be proven false.
      There are also contradictions and some really stupid stories.

      December 27, 2013 at 5:03 pm |
  3. Science Does Not Lead to Atheism

    “But the context of religion is a great background for doing science. In the words of Psalm 19, ‘The heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament showeth his handiwork’. Thus scientific research is a worshipful act, in that it reveals more of the wonders of God’s creation.”

    –Arthur L. Schawlow, Professor of Physics at Stanford University and winner of the 1981 Nobel Prize in Physics.

    December 27, 2013 at 4:46 pm |
    • Observer

      The earth is a FLAT circle.

      - the Bible

      December 27, 2013 at 4:48 pm |
      • Or

        “The impossibility of real science and real religion ever conflicting becomes evident when one examines the purpose of science and the purpose of religion. The purpose of science is to develop – without prejudice or preconception of any kind – a knowledge of the facts, the laws and the processes of nature. The even more important task of religion, on the other hand, is to develop the consciences, the ideals and the aspirations of mankind.”

        –Robert Andrews Millikan, who won the 1923 Nobel Prize in Physics for his work on the elementary charge of electricity and on the photoelectric effect.

        December 27, 2013 at 4:52 pm |
        • Observer

          People can instantly turn into salt.

          - the Bible

          December 27, 2013 at 4:53 pm |
        • Fact

          “Physics filled me with awe, put me in touch with a sense of original causes. Physics brought me closer to God. That feeling stayed with me throughout my years in science. Whenever one of my students came to me with a scientific project, I asked only one question, ‘Will it bring you nearer to God?’ ”

          –Isidor Isaac Rabi, who won the 1944 Nobel Prize in Physics for his work on the magnetic properties of atomic nuclei.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:59 pm |
        • Observer

          The sun and the moon suddenly STOPPED.

          - the Bible

          December 27, 2013 at 5:29 pm |
      • Jesus' Beloved

        Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

        December 27, 2013 at 4:53 pm |
        • Observer

          Basic math:

          A circle is a FLAT 2-dimensional figure.

          The earth is a 3-dimensional SPHERE.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:58 pm |
        • Jesus' Beloved

          Also see Job 26...
          there's no need to grasp at straws..

          December 27, 2013 at 5:10 pm |
        • Live4Him

          @Observer : A circle is a FLAT 2-dimensional figure. The earth is a 3-dimensional SPHERE.

          Lets assume a light is shining in a dark room upon an object in that room. We'll use two objects a flat circular object (i.e. a dinner plate) and a sphere. If one were to draw a line between the dark and the light both objects, they would create a circle.

          Job 26:10 He has marked out a circle on the surface of the deep as the boundary of light and darkness.

          <><

          December 27, 2013 at 5:36 pm |
  4. lunchbreaker

    If God has the ability to manipulate the natural world, would that not negate any science that supposedly proves the Bilble to be true? A particular end result of a study could be the result of a natural process, or God going "poof" with a result that appears the same as if nature was left alone. How can one distinguish between the two?

    December 27, 2013 at 4:44 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @lunchbreaker : If God has the ability to manipulate the natural world

      We know this to be true (unnatural manipulation), based upon the first four verses of the Bible (creation of matter, energy and time).

      @lunchbreaker : would that not negate any science that supposedly proves the Bilble to be true?

      Not at all. For this premise to be true, it would mean that 1) God is manipulating the natural world continuously and 2) He is doing so contrary to the natural laws he set in place. This is a contradictory assumption. Thus, science can be used to prove/disprove the Bible (and anything else). Keep in mind what science is: it is a methodology and not an end goal.

      @lunchbreaker : How can one distinguish between the two (natural vs. supernatural events)?

      Unfortunately, this is very difficult to determine. We see in scripture two groups of people observing a miracle (healing) – and one group declared it powered by God and the other declared it powered by evil. And for another miracle (resurrection), one group declared it a supernatural event while the other declared it a natural event (i.e. hidden body). So, you have two obstacles to recognizing a supernatural event – the infrequency of said events and the interpretation of such an event when it does occur. If the viewer is unwilling to accept what is seen, then the viewer will find a natural explanation for its occurance. So to answer your question – you need to have an open mind and the fortitude to search for the full explanation regardless of where it leads.

      BTW – I've got to step out for a bit. I'll try to come back later and address any questions.

      <><

      December 27, 2013 at 5:02 pm |
  5. Live4Him

    @Observer : Do you believe in raising children and telling them that they won't be punished for anything they do wrong until they die?

    This is a very interesting concept. How do you discipline your children? Or do you abstain from such actions?

    December 27, 2013 at 4:44 pm |
    • Observer

      Live4Him,

      You didn't answer the question.

      No, I didn't raise my children like God does by staying UNPROVEN. Children need to be disciplined when they do wrong and not just wait until they die.

      December 27, 2013 at 4:51 pm |
      • Happy Atheist

        It's like cutting off a dogs legs for digging up your plants a few days before, he's like "what did I do? what did I do?" You can't wait a lifetime and then dole out unjust justice unless you are a cruel vindictive abusive maniac. I hope that isn't the God so many people worship, but many freely admit it when they speak of eternal heII for the few years they spent on earth from a God that refuses to reveal himself to all.

        December 27, 2013 at 5:12 pm |
  6. Topher

    Good afternoon, everyone. I hope you all had a great Christmas!

    December 27, 2013 at 4:17 pm |
    • Happy Atheist

      I've had a wonderful week with my family, got a few days off work to spend time with them and no one bought anyone an overpriced commercialized gift, their presence was presents enough. No tree, no lights, just love.

      December 27, 2013 at 4:25 pm |
      • Live4Him

        Ditto. Just spent time remembering the real reason for the season.

        December 27, 2013 at 4:41 pm |
      • Jesus' Beloved

        This was exactly how we spent Christmas: no trees, lights, gifts.

        December 27, 2013 at 4:49 pm |
        • Happy Atheist

          See, maybe we have more in common than we thought 🙂

          I'm happy at least some focus on whats important instead of getting caught up in the Disco-ization of a time better spent on self reflection and being honest with yourself and your family.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:56 pm |
        • Jesus' Beloved

          I know...speaking of having more in common...that's why I decided to post...
          It's wearisome having to debate differences... that's why I try to stay away as much as I can from the proof stuff.

          December 27, 2013 at 5:13 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      Good afternoon Topher. Hope all is well with you.

      Can't stick around and chat today as my lunch hour is just about done and I have a TON of work to get done before I call it a day.

      Hope your holiday was good and that the new year treats you with kindness.

      December 27, 2013 at 4:28 pm |
      • Live4Him

        Hope all goes well with you today and that you get everything done that's needed.

        December 27, 2013 at 4:45 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      hope everyone's holidays are safe and happy!

      December 27, 2013 at 4:44 pm |
  7. WASP

    well i got on here tonight out of boredom, yet i see the same people doing the samething as always.

    CHRISTIANS: god is real because the bible said he is real, thus he is real.

    ATHEISTS: that is circluar logic and doesn't work when applied to a logic based thought.

    CHRISTIANS: you're mean!

    LMFAO!

    night everyone.

    December 27, 2013 at 4:13 pm |
    • Atheist Logic is Awesome

      God does not exist.

      Therefore, God does not personally reveal His existence to people.

      When people think they are having experiences of God, this experience can be fully explained in terms of naturalistic causation, using scientific terms (particularly through neurological studies).

      Therefore, people do not have experiences of God.

      Therefore, testimonies of God’s existence do not prove that God exists.

      Therefore, God does not exist.

      December 27, 2013 at 4:15 pm |
      • In Santa we trust

        So are you saying that the bible is correct? Or do you accept scientific explanations for the universe, evolution, etc.
        Religion is typically dogmatic about their religious texts and do not readily move from that position even when they are shown to be wrong. No one has an independently verifiable relationship with a god. If the religious are to be believed then the goal of a god is for humans to obey it – what better way to achieve that than verifiable signs.

        December 27, 2013 at 4:24 pm |
        • Atheist Logic is Awesome

          Most religious people are not how you describe them.
          WE GET IT! CHRISTIANS CAN'T PROVE THE BIBLE TO YOU.
          And you can't prove God doesn't exist to them.
          It is a mutual relationship you engage in.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:30 pm |
        • Cpt. Obvious

          That's why disbelief/unbelief is the more logical choice. If I claim to have an invisible space ship, but I have no proof, does it make more sense to believe or disbelieve? If you disbelieve, and I tell you that you can't prove that I don't have an invisible space ship, does it make sense for you to believe, then? Why or why not?

          December 27, 2013 at 4:34 pm |
        • Dizzy

          That is circular reasoning, Cpt Obvious

          December 27, 2013 at 4:38 pm |
        • Fact

          You don't have an invisible space ship. You are just making a poor analogy.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:39 pm |
        • Cpt. Obvious

          I have the exact same amount of evidence for my invisible space ship as a believer has for his god. The question isn't about whether I have the space ship. The question is about whether a person should believe an idea until he can disprove it.

          It is correct that the atheist has no proof and the believer has no proof. What is INCORRECT is that they are both on equal footing and expressing similar logic. The believer is asking others to believe without proof. The unbeliever is not asking anyone to believe in anything without proof. The unbeliever is simply disbelieving an unverified claim. The unbeliever is NOT believing and asking others to believe in an unverified claim.

          The claims are different and it is silly for believers to act as if they are similar.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:51 pm |
        • Fact

          Sorry, I'll trust an actual scientist over an angry-sounding message board poster.

          “I strongly believe in the existence of God, based on intuition, observations, logic, and also scientific knowledge.”

          “Science, with its experiments and logic, tries to understand the order or structure of the universe. Religion, with its theological inspiration and reflection, tries to understand the purpose or meaning of the universe. These two are cross-related. Purpose implies structure, and structure ought somehow to be interpretable in terms of purpose.”

          “At least this is the way I see it. I am a physicist. I also consider myself a Christian. As I try to understand the nature of our universe in these two modes of thinking, I see many commonalities and crossovers between science and religion. It seems logical that in the long run the two will even converge.”

          –Charles Hard Townes, who received the 1964 Nobel Prize in Physics for his fundamental work in the field of quantum electronics.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:53 pm |
        • Fact

          Cpt. Obvious ≠ scientist

          December 27, 2013 at 4:54 pm |
        • .

          FACT = Chad

          Trying to sell intellegent design.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:56 pm |
        • Cpt. Obvious

          Are you implying that I have said something with an angry tone? If so, what?

          I don't think anyone should believe a claim based on the status or career choice of that other person. I am not an atheist because some scientists happen to be atheist. I am an atheist because no believer has yet shown me any good reasons to believe in his god. I know of no measurements that can be made to independently verify that a god does or does not exist.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:56 pm |
        • FACT

          You are an internet atheist troll. Of course you are not a scientist. If you went on a scientist blog you wouldn't know what anyone was talking about. You come here and talk about what you know: GOD.

          December 27, 2013 at 5:02 pm |
        • Cpt. Obvious

          FACT, could you please try to be less boring? thanks.

          December 27, 2013 at 5:12 pm |
        • FACT

          Cpt. Obvious

          Can you stop acting like the Urban Dictionary's exact definition of an internet atheist?

          December 27, 2013 at 5:16 pm |
        • Cpt. Obvious

          No, no. I said LESS boring, not more boring. Got that list, yet, of scientists who have proved god exists?

          December 27, 2013 at 5:22 pm |
      • Happy Atheist

        If there was a way to tell the difference between someone telling others of how Vishnu has revealed itself to it's followers and someone who claims Jesus has revealed himself to them your point would be valid. However, Christians reject other claims of Allah or Vishnu or any other God revealing itself to anyone as false while making the same claim of their personal experiences with Jesus which are identical to those claims they reject.

        Also, if you have had this personal "reveal" as some claim, why would they think that everyone else wants that same experience? I love rollercoasters with big drops but I wouldn't force everyone to ride just because I thought it was awesome.

        December 27, 2013 at 4:32 pm |
        • Internet Atheism

          Do you go to websites and attack people who don't like roller coasters?

          December 27, 2013 at 4:47 pm |
        • Happy Atheist

          I would if they were sending people to my daughters school trying to tell kids about the evils of rollercoasters or if they were trying to pass legislation that made riding them illegal or if they were attempting to add "under no rollercoasters" to the national pledge, yes I would.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:50 pm |
        • FACT

          What if they tried to tell you that people who don't like roller coasters are mentally retarded or delusional. That they believe in imaginary things and should not be trusted. That they are responsible for most of the evil in the world?

          December 27, 2013 at 5:04 pm |
        • Happy Atheist

          "What if they tried to tell you that people who don't like roller coasters are mentally retarded or delusional."

          I would have to agree with them if I knew the anti-rollercoasters were going to schools, making laws and trying to ban rollercoasters, that would be proof enough of their mental instability.

          December 27, 2013 at 5:16 pm |
        • FACT

          I'M BEING PERSECUTED.
          – the atheists

          December 27, 2013 at 5:55 pm |
        • FACT

          I'M BEING PERSECUTED.
          – the holocaust jews

          p.s. it's always fun and games until they come for you...

          December 27, 2013 at 6:17 pm |
  8. The Evidence Surrounds Us

    Christianity faith does NOT conflict with science.

    Christianity built this civilization; your Christian ancestors are the pioneers behind the greatest advancements in many fields of study. Christianity illuminates the sciences and invigorates the passion for discovery.

    As a Christian, you aren’t just a member of a religion — you’re a member of a rich intellectual tradition unmatched by any group, anywhere in the world.

    So don’t just sit there and let the atheists blabber about how your faith hates science.

    Speak up, damn it. Fight back. Get angry.

    December 27, 2013 at 4:12 pm |
    • The Evidence Surrounds Us

      I have heard this “you can’t mix religion and science” argument so many times, and so many times the atheist gets away with making such a silly and irrational claim.

      A guy actually told me today that “Christians have always hated science.” What a bizarre and stupid thing to say; easily refuted, if only we take the time and endure the frustration. Modern science, despite the incoherent ramblings of historically illiterate fools, wouldn’t exist without religion.

      Christianity hasn’t stifled science. Christianity has been its driving force and, for hundreds of years, virtually its only significant contributor. Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo, Pascal, Descartes, Newton, Kelvin, Mendel, Boyle — all devout Christians. You want to remove your science from my religion? Fine. But we’re keeping these dudes. You can have Richard Dawkins and his tales of “mild pedophilia.” Enjoy.

      Father Steno was a priest. Geologists call him “father,” but for none religious reasons: he’s considered the father of modern geology.

      The Basilica of San Petronio is a beautiful church. It was also, for many years, one of the most sophisticated solar observatories in the world.

      December 27, 2013 at 4:13 pm |
      • Bootyfunk

        funny how you conveniently skip all the men of science christianity has imprisoned, tortured and killed. ask Galileo or Bruno.
        you forget that religion has crushed science throughout history. science is a threat to religion - it pulls the curtain back. it teaches you not to obey, but to ask questions - deadly to religion.
        you forget that religion has fought and still fights the teaching of evolution.
        religion teaches us the answer was 'magic'
        science teaches us by logic and evidence
        christianity makes people intellectually lazy, teaches them not to ask questions - why should you? the answers are all in this collection of stories from men who believed the earth was flat, g.ays should be killed and women are property.

        religion was man's first attempt at explaining the world around us.
        now we have something better - science.

        December 27, 2013 at 4:24 pm |
        • BQuote

          "The Bible shows the way to go to heaven, not the way the heavens go."
          Galileo Galilei

          "Wise men know that God is in things and that divinity is latent in nature."
          Giordano Bruno

          December 27, 2013 at 4:27 pm |
        • Bootyfunk

          what does that prove? i never said they were atheists or toaists. you're deflecting.

          you said science and religion don't have conflict - i say they have an entire history of conflict.

          you realize Galileo was imprisoned by the church because of his scientific beliefs, right?
          you realize Bruno was burned alive by the church because of his scientific beliefs, right?
          the list of people intimidated, imprisoned and/or murdered by the church is long.

          what the scientist believed is irrelevant to this argument.
          what is relevant is that the church has stomped on science left and right throughout history.
          to deny this shows you are deluded, brain-washed by your religion.
          you don't seem capable of recognizing facts that disagree with your religious world views.
          so you smash the square block through the round hole and say "see? it fits!!!"
          no, it doesn't.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:35 pm |
        • Jesus' Beloved

          Science is just a language.
          When Joseph was in Egypt he had to learn the 72 languages of the Egyptians to be just a step below Pharaoh.

          Daniel was a noble... in whom was no blemish, but well favoured, and skilful in all wisdom, and cunning in knowledge, and understanding science, and such as had ability in them to stand in the king's palace, and whom they might teach the learning and the tongue of the Chaldeans.

          So science is not a modern language.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:37 pm |
        • Science Does Not Lead To Atheism

          “There can never be any real opposition between religion and science; for the one is the complement of the other. Every serious and reflective person realizes, I think, that the religious element in his nature must be recognized and cultivated if all the powers of the human soul are to act together in perfect balance and harmony. And indeed it was not by accident that the greatest thinkers of all ages were deeply religious souls.”

          –Max Planck, the Nobel Prize winning physicist considered to be the founder of quantum theory, and one of the most important physicists of the 20th century, indeed of all time.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:41 pm |
        • Science Does Not Lead To Atheism

          “Let me say that I don’t see any conflict between science and religion. I go to church as many other scientists do. I share with most religious people a sense of mystery and wonder at the universe and I want to participate in religious ritual and practices because they’re something that all humans can share.”

          –Sir Martin Rees, the British cosmologist and astrophysicist who has been Astronomer Royal since 1995 and was the president of the Royal Society between 2005 and 2010. Rees is the winner of the Crafoord Prize (which is the most prestigious award in astronomy), amongst many other awards.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:42 pm |
        • Cpt. Obvious

          No. Science is a methodology, not a language. Language communicates symbols and ideas. Methodology produces predictable results. The power of the scientific method is its power of prediction.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:42 pm |
        • Science Does Not Lead To Atheism

          “The more I study nature, the more I stand amazed at the work of the Creator. Science brings men nearer to God.”

          “In good philosophy, the word cause ought to be reserved to the single Divine impulse that has formed the universe.”

          “Little science takes you away from God but more of it takes you to Him.”

          –Louis Pasteur, the founder of microbiology and immunology.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:43 pm |
        • Christians have actually contributed more to science than atheists

          atheists are all talk, no action.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:44 pm |
        • Cpt. Obvious

          No, science does not lead to atheism, but it does lead one to notice how invisible and undetectable and irrelevant is any force that cannot be measured.....such as god. The Christian scientist gets results no quicker or better than the atheist scientist.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:47 pm |
        • Fact

          “Being an ordinary scientist and an ordinary Christian seems perfectly natural to me. It is also perfectly natural for the many scientists I know who are also people of deep religious faith.”

          –William D. Phillips, who won the 1997 Nobel Prize in Physics for development of methods to cool and trap atoms with laser light.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:55 pm |
      • Observer

        The Evidence Surrounds Us,

        The Bible says that the earth is a FLAT circle. It says that the ratio pi is equal to 3.0. It says people can instantly turn into salt.

        Fortunately, NO ONE uses the Bible as a source of science information.

        December 27, 2013 at 4:43 pm |
        • Science Does Not Lead to Atheism

          “From the perspective of the latest physical theories, Christianity is not a mere religion, but an experimentally testable science.”

          –Professor of Mathematical Physics Frank Tippler

          December 27, 2013 at 4:45 pm |
        • Observer

          Cutting off a man's hair can physically weaken him

          - the Bible

          December 27, 2013 at 4:55 pm |
        • Happy Atheist

          Making your pregnant wife eat dust mixed with water off the temple floor can prove whether she cheated on you or not.

          – Numbers 5:16-22

          December 27, 2013 at 5:00 pm |
        • FACT

          Taking verses out of context and only using them to support your prejudices.

          – Internet atheism

          December 27, 2013 at 5:04 pm |
        • Happy Atheist

          "12 “Tell the Israelites: ‘A man’s wife might be unfaithful to him 13 and have se x ual relations with another man. Her sin might be kept hidden from her husband so that he does not know about the wrong she did. Perhaps no one saw it, and she wasn’t caught. 14 But if her husband has feelings of jealousy and suspects she has sinned—whether she has or not— 15 he should take her to the priest. The husband must also take an offering for her of two quarts of barley flour. He must not pour oil or incense on it, because this is a grain offering for jealousy, an offering of remembrance. It is to find out if she is guilty.

          16 “‘The priest will bring in the woman and make her stand before the Lord. 17 He will take some holy water in a clay jar, and he will put some dirt from the floor of the Holy Tent into the water. 18 The priest will make the woman stand before the Lord, and he will loosen her hair. He will hand her the offering of remembrance, the grain offering for jealousy; he will hold the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 The priest will make her take an oath and ask her, “Has another man had se x ual relations with you? Have you been unfaithful to your husband? If you haven’t, this bitter water that brings a curse won’t hurt you. 20 But if you have been unfaithful to your husband and have had se x ual relations with a man besides him”— 21 the priest will then put on her the curse that the oath will bring—“the Lord will make the people curse and reject you. He will make your stomach get big, and he will make your body unable to give birth to another baby. 22 This water that brings a curse will go inside you and make your body unable to give birth to another baby.” Numbers 5:12-22

          Out of context? Really?

          December 27, 2013 at 5:19 pm |
    • Live4Him

      @The Evidence Surrounds Us : Speak up, damn it. Fight back. Get angry.

      I agree with much of your post, but this last is a sticking point. Scripture says to be slow to anger. We don't shine the light of Jesus by being angry. Be calm, logical and have the evidence to present. Look for common ground between you and your opponent.

      <><

      December 27, 2013 at 4:16 pm |
      • The Evidence Surrounds Us

        No, we need to fight to help these people. Before they all end up like the modern atheist’s greatest prophet, Nietchsze, who died insane and naked, eating his own feces in a mental insttution. This is not the sort of fate we should wish upon our neighbors.

        December 27, 2013 at 4:19 pm |
        • Cpt. Obvious

          Obvious troll is obvious.....and...boring.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:24 pm |
        • Jesus' Beloved

          The reality is you're not fighting them.... you fight the spirit behind them...
          when you separate the two, then you unconditionally love the person regardless... because you know it's not them but the spirit within them that causes whatever it is.... jealousy, anger, hatred, antichrist etc.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:25 pm |
        • Live4Him

          Scripture command us to be ready to defend our faith (apologeia). However, we don't fight this battle because it is the Lord's battle and not our own. We cannot hate. Anger leads to hate and hate leads to hell.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:33 pm |
        • Observer

          The Evidence Surrounds Us

          "the modern atheist’s greatest prophet, Nietchsze"

          I have read THOUSANDS of comments from atheists on here. The ONLY person I have ever heard reference Nietchsze is YOU. Ooops.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:46 pm |
      • Steve

        "but the spirit within them that causes whatever it is.... jealousy, anger, hatred, antichrist etc."

        Typical Christian, they have to paint a picture of negativity towards those that disagree with their beliefs. That is why your religion corrupts the mind and gives you such a negative outlook.

        December 27, 2013 at 4:33 pm |
        • Jesus' Beloved

          Hi Steve,
          all the spirits I mentioned above are not just relegated to those I disagree with.
          Every single human being have entertained these spirits at sometime. Some know they are spirits and call them such.
          Others think they're normal and call them human emotions.
          Every plant that's not planted by Father, will be rooted up from the garden of our minds:
          haughty spirit, spirit of jealously, dumb and deaf spirit, spirit of heaviness, spirit of antichrist, lying spirit, familiar spirit, perverse spirit, unclean spirit, spirit of divination, spirit of fear, and spirit of w. oredom.

          Blessings

          December 27, 2013 at 4:45 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      you're denying the truth.
      the bible says all kinds of things that conflict with science
      for instance, the bible says there was a great flood that covered even mt. everest
      science says there is a finite amount of water on earth making such an event impossible
      the list goes on and on.

      science and religion don't conflict? LOL!

      December 27, 2013 at 4:18 pm |
      • Or....

        “Those who have magnified more recent controversies about the relations of science and religion, and who have projected them back into historical time, simply perpetuate a historical myth. The myth of a perennial conflict between science and religion is one to which no historian of science would subscribe.”

        –Former Oxford University Professor of Science and Religion Peter Harrison.

        December 27, 2013 at 4:21 pm |
        • MythBusters

          Even atheists believe in myths, lol

          December 27, 2013 at 4:22 pm |
        • Bootyfunk

          Former Oxford University Professor of Science and Religion Peter Harrison.
          +++ lol, as any professor of religion would say. too bad history shows this completely false. there are whole books written on the subject...

          December 27, 2013 at 4:26 pm |
        • Vic

          God bless you and all!

          That myth was due to a non-intended misinterpretation of a newspaper article, and became an urban legend.

          I posted a link a while back about that, I don't have it at the moment.

          May God bless.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:28 pm |
        • Qcity

          “You are right in speaking of the moral foundations of science, but you cannot turn around and speak of the scientific foundations of morality.”
          ― Albert Einstein

          “I don't argue things being spiritual vs scientific, because I've never met anyone who knows enough about either to be convincing.”
          ― S. Kelley Harrell

          December 27, 2013 at 4:34 pm |
        • OK

          Bootyfunk

          Please post your credentials. Why should I trust you over an actual scientist?

          December 27, 2013 at 4:35 pm |
        • Bootyfunk

          @OK, post yours first, lol.

          “You are right in speaking of the moral foundations of science, but you cannot turn around and speak of the scientific foundations of morality.”
          ― Albert Einstein

          shows nobody is perfect. einstein was proven wrong about many of his scientific ideals. this one he got wrong too. sociologists write books on how our ethics evolved, all explained scientifically. but i guess you missed that, huh? you are guilty of an argument from ignorance.

          the basics go like this:
          good ethics develop in a social group setting because if you are good to someone when they are in need, they will likely be good to you when you are in need - return the favor. thus keeping and increasing the group's integrity and strength, thus increasing the group's chance of survival as a whole. go read more on the subject - you will be fascinated, since you apparently don't know anything about it.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:41 pm |
        • Bootyfunk

          @OK
          you sound like a 12 year old parrot. when did i say you should "trust me over a scientist"? and are you saying a genius-level scientists can't be wrong about anything? you're logic seems child-like.

          what are your 'credentials'? lol, so silly.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:43 pm |
        • Fact

          You laughed at a Former Oxford University Professor of Science and Religion's opinion.
          And seemed to think yours was better.
          No. You are a message board poster. He was an Oxford Professor.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:56 pm |
      • Live4Him

        @Bootyfunk : the bible says there was a great flood that covered even mt. everest

        First, the Bible doesn't even mention Mt Everest, but it infers even the highest mountain was covered. However, how tall was the highest mountain back then? We don't know. There is no mention of any mountains prior to the flood. All the scripture states is that 'all the earth was covered'.

        Second, what was the deepest part of the oceans at the time of the flood? Again, it is unknown. So, you're extrapolating the flood conditions based upon today's changed world – not very scientific and fraught with the danger of being made a fool.

        <><

        December 27, 2013 at 4:30 pm |
        • midwest rail

          Merry Christmas Merry Christmas Merry Christmas

          December 27, 2013 at 4:32 pm |
        • Happy Atheist

          "you're extrapolating the flood conditions based upon today's changed world"

          Actually he is trying to explain very simple geological evidence that has proven tectonic plate movements and geological core samples which give us a very accurate picture of the earth for the last few million years. There has been no global flood and just because you believe you have a magic genie in a bottle/bible you cannot just claim the evidence is wrong and your God did it anyway, probably in less than 10,000 years because hey, why would he make a planet just for us but spend 4.5 billion years with countless extinct species getting it ready for the true planned occupants, we humans? Are you really that vain L4H? This is all for us? The trillions of stars are just nightlites for humans? The 14.5 billion years of the universe was just a party planning period for God to get everything ready for us? Then in the first few hundreds years of humans we don't show enough appreciation so God regrets making it all for us and decides to wipe out all of humanity along with the innocent animals? Your idea of a perfect God seems to be rather flawed...

          December 27, 2013 at 4:48 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      Because the Christian church didn't set the world back hundreds of years during the dark ages by denying science and labeling it blasphemy? Or destroy any scientific advancements made by other cultures.

      And Christians didn't invade the US, steal it from the original inhabitants and make them abandon the knowledge of medicine of spirit and body that might have taught us how to live a whole life without having to pollute our bodies with chemicals?

      I am not saying that science and faith can not co-exist. Just that trying to say that faith has never sought to destroy science is a lie.

      December 27, 2013 at 4:18 pm |
      • In Santa we Dogg

        Those weren't real Christians behind the greatest advancements in many fields of study. They were actually atheists just pretending to be atheists so they wouldn't be burn at a stake.

        December 27, 2013 at 4:24 pm |
      • In Santa we Dogg

        Those weren't real Christians behind the greatest advancements in many fields of study. They were actually atheists just pretending to be *Christians!* so they wouldn't be burn at a stake.

        December 27, 2013 at 4:24 pm |
        • Johnny Travis

          Or even worse, Catholics, most right wing crazies don't consider them to be Christian until they need to start a list of Christian scientists.

          December 30, 2013 at 1:49 pm |
  9. Live4Him

    @Andy : The big bang theory shows that the Mormons are wrong and the Jews are right.

    First, the big bang theory is a faith-based belief (i.e. it has not been proven). So, it cannot prove anything – neither Mormons nor Jews.

    <><

    December 27, 2013 at 4:09 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      "First, the big bang theory is a faith-based belief (i.e. it has not been proven)"
      +++ absolutely incorrect.
      faith = belief without evidence
      big bang has evidence to support it
      that's why scientists, who do not work on belief, but proof 'believe' it
      science is all about evidence
      faith is all about the lack of evidence
      don't confuse the two

      December 27, 2013 at 4:13 pm |
      • Live4Him

        @Bootyfunk : faith = belief without evidence

        That may be YOUR definition, but if you use a dictionary, you won't find that definition.

        <><

        December 27, 2013 at 4:19 pm |
        • Bootyfunk

          freedictionairy.com says you are wrong:

          http://www.thefreedictionary.com/faith
          Faith:
          2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:28 pm |
        • Live4Him

          @Bootyfunk : freedictionairy.com says you are wrong:

          That's your problem. You're using an open-source dictionary – where atheists can modify the definition to suit them. Let's use a reputable source:

          http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith

          1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
          2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
          3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
          4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
          5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:37 pm |
  10. HitchensLogic

    I personally don’t like Christianity, therefore God doesn’t exist

    December 27, 2013 at 3:51 pm |
    • HitchensLogic

      but then ii be a ignorant fundie troll

      December 27, 2013 at 3:57 pm |
      • HitchensLogic

        I'm an agnostic who busts internet atheist balls.

        December 27, 2013 at 4:00 pm |
        • HitchensLogic

          cos i ain't got none of my own

          December 27, 2013 at 4:26 pm |
    • ChristiansLogic

      Some people read the bible and quoted scriptures to me when I was a child and a bunch of other people believe it and I really really want it to be true because they tell me it will be really awesome and the thought of this world being all I get depresses me, sooooo... I'm a Christian!

      December 27, 2013 at 4:20 pm |
  11. Vic

    Nothing pleases God like Faith/Belief in Him.

    God's Ultimate Provision for our Salvation is by His Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

    Now, what is that Belief/Faith that God wants from us?

    Romans 10:9
    "9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;"

    If that Belief/Faith is altered, there is nothing left.

    Jesus Christ (Savior God Messiah) is the Son of God, God's Incarnation In The Flesh, The Second Person of the Triune God —Father, Son and Holy Spirit—, the Actual Word of God, the Lamb of God, the Ultimate Sacrifice, the ONLY Mediator to God the Father, our High Priest, and Lord & Savior.

    December 27, 2013 at 3:47 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      Nothing pleases God like Faith/Belief in Him.

      That's pretty pathetic, if you think about it.

      December 27, 2013 at 4:24 pm |
      • Jesus' Beloved

        If your child has no faith/belief that you would provide for him, that you would keep your promises to him, how would you feel.

        If your child doubted every single thing you told him... how would you feel.
        Now that's pathetic.

        Don't be fooled by the devil.

        December 27, 2013 at 4:29 pm |
        • myweightinwords

          1) I don't have any children.
          2) If I did, I'd be a real, live, physical presence in their life and they wouldn't need to "believe" I existed.
          3) If I did, my greatest joy would be that they grew up to be strong, intelligent, independent adults with a sense of community and a drive to help their fellow man, not that they shower me with adoration.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:31 pm |
        • Momof4

          Jesus' Beloved:
          "If your child has no faith/belief that you would provide for him, that you would keep your promises to him, how would you feel.
          If your child doubted every single thing you told him... how would you feel."

          I would feel that by hiding in the closet and only thinking that I was communicating telepathically with them and they are unable to "get it", ***I*** have failed.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:35 pm |
        • Observer

          Jesus' Beloved,

          Do you believe in raising children and telling them that they won't be punished for anything they do wrong until they die?

          December 27, 2013 at 4:39 pm |
  12. Live4Him

    @Maddy : If you don't accept the premise of saints, I understand. I do.

    Upon what do you base this belief?

    <><

    December 27, 2013 at 3:44 pm |
    • Jesus' Beloved

      Maddy: What Austin said is absolutely right and there's not much to add to it.

      You have to know your identi. ty in Christ. All these people you're calling saints, they are the same as you and I. Because they had the same Holy Spirit that we have.
      It's not us that live, but Christ that lives in us.

      You do not give praise or worship to man.
      You worship the creator and not a created being (angel, man, saints etc.) or thing.
      As I said, if it's not in the Bible you must reject it. Don't add to the Bible, it's a finished book. It's the only book that will never need updating.

      Blessings.

      December 27, 2013 at 3:49 pm |
      • Live4Him

        @Jesus' Beloved : As I said, if it's not in the Bible you must reject it.

        Overall, I think we're on the same page. I read through the posts, but didn't see Maddy present any evidence to justify a belief in a saint.

        <><

        December 27, 2013 at 3:55 pm |
        • Jesus' Beloved

          No she didn't provide any.
          She believes because that's what the church teaches.
          It's difficult to kill sacred cows... as Andrew would say, you have to do it one limb at a time. 🙂

          Blessings

          December 27, 2013 at 4:09 pm |
      • Check

        Yesirree... that ol' dead dove's blood cure for leprosy is as valid and effective today as the day it was written!

        December 27, 2013 at 3:56 pm |
        • Check

          p.s. How dare people tinker with antibiotics to treat it and overtake the word of the "LORD" to Moses!

          December 27, 2013 at 4:00 pm |
  13. Jesus' Beloved

    I know the style of certain posters, so if I see posts that don't line up with that style... I ignore them.

    Did you say the dream was yesterday?

    December 27, 2013 at 3:44 pm |
  14. Jesus' Beloved

    AUSTIN –
    Must have been someone using my handle as I didn't comment at all here yesterday.

    December 27, 2013 at 3:41 pm |
    • Austin

      good to know friend! have a great day, your armor is very shiny!

      December 27, 2013 at 3:43 pm |
      • Jesus' Beloved

        thanks... right back at ya.
        can't wait till you get those dreams interpreted.
        I wrote some down, so I don't have to go back and search the threads.

        Blessings and prayers of healing for your friend.

        December 27, 2013 at 3:45 pm |
  15. K-switch

    @thecopycat troll, do me next.

    December 27, 2013 at 3:33 pm |
  16. ATTN

    If you can't prove something to "In Santa We Trust" than it doesn't exist.
    He holds exclusive access to truth, understanding and facts. Simply because he says he does.
    ......................
    Carry on.
    -................

    December 27, 2013 at 3:20 pm |
    • In Santa we trust

      Do you believe in Odin? How did you come to that conclusion?

      December 27, 2013 at 3:25 pm |
      • Austin

        yes, i believe odin was a mimicry ploy by Satan's. little helper, who has information because he fell out of heaven, being eternal, and knowing directly the Creator Christ and Redeemer, he always knew the gospel and always perverted mans mind with many false flags.

        December 27, 2013 at 3:38 pm |
      • ATTN

        I don't believe in Odin. I've never met a person that told me they believe in Odin.

        December 27, 2013 at 3:44 pm |
        • In Santa we trust

          You didn't answer the question. Let's substitute Vishnu then.
          Do you believe in Vishnu? How did you come to that conclusion?

          December 27, 2013 at 3:56 pm |
        • ATTN

          I don't believe in Vishnu. I don't know much about it.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:03 pm |
        • In Santa we trust

          The question is why not? I think you know that and are doing the usual dance. Because to answer would create a parallel with your own god.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:28 pm |
    • Live4Him

      AMEN!

      December 27, 2013 at 3:31 pm |
  17. Lucifer's Evil Twin

    The religi-nuts have not been very entertaining today... I think it is time for me to go home too... Auf Wiedersehen

    December 27, 2013 at 2:55 pm |
    • skeptic AL

      We are soooo much better than those religious people. Did you know that there has never been a Christian surgeon, physicist or astronaut? They are too stupid. Only atheists can perform surgery, study science and fly to the moon. You know what is really awesome? To be an atheist you just have to say you don't believe in God. Any idiot can do that!!! But the great things is you get to pretend like you are a scientist!!! Just by saying you are an athiest – automatically it means you are not delusional, irrational, illogical or flawed.
      Just say it "I'm an atheist" – and you can imagine you are smarter!!!!!
      It is so easy. I love it.

      December 27, 2013 at 3:02 pm |
      • Dyslexic doG

        feeble.

        December 27, 2013 at 3:04 pm |
      • AverageJoe76

        Seems you have a pretty non 'skeptic AL' approach to what an atheist is. [ i crack myself up, if no one else – sigh ]

        December 27, 2013 at 3:07 pm |
        • pot kettle

          Kind of like when an internet atheist describes a religious person. All opinion and hate, no facts or understanding.

          December 27, 2013 at 3:10 pm |
        • kettle pot

          Kind of like when an internet believer describes an atheist person. All delusion opinion and hate, no facts or understanding.

          December 27, 2013 at 3:16 pm |
      • Live4Him

        @skeptic AL : Did you know that there has never been a Christian surgeon, physicist or astronaut?

        Where did you get this disinformation from? Mars? I know of several surgeons who are also Christians.

        Buzz Aldrin – The first religious act performed on the moon (Apollo 11) was the Christian celebration of communion.

        James Benson Irwin (Colonel, United States Air Force) – Apollo 15, July, 1971. He was the founding president of the High Flight Foundation, a Christian inter-denominational evangelical ministry based in Colorado Springs. Died in 1991.

        Charles Moss Duke, Jr. (Brigadier General, USAF, Ret.) – Lunar module pilot of Apollo 16, April 16-27, 1972. He is an active speaker and Christian lay witness and President of Duke Ministry For Christ.

        <><

        December 27, 2013 at 3:36 pm |
        • Johnny Travis

          Of course you fell for the lamest fake atheist post of all time. The fact that you couldn't see right through is a good sign of why you take the bible literally.

          December 27, 2013 at 3:41 pm |
        • Live4Him

          @Johnny Travis : Of course you fell for the lamest fake atheist post of all time.

          Not a lot of content difference between the fake and the real, now is there?

          December 27, 2013 at 3:47 pm |
        • In Santa we trust

          L4H, Generally there is and in this case it seems pretty clear.

          December 27, 2013 at 3:59 pm |
        • Live4Him

          @In Santa we trust : Generally there is and in this case it seems pretty clear.

          Lets look at the typical attributes of an atheist post:

          Mockery : check
          False superiority : check
          Lack of evidence : check

          What else is missing? Nothing. It's all there.

          <><

          December 27, 2013 at 4:02 pm |
        • In Santa we trust

          L4H
          "Mockery : check
          False superiority : check"

          Like your god, that's only in your head.

          "Lack of evidence : check"

          You're confusing that with a believer's post.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:41 pm |
  18. Bootyfunk

    if jesus really existed, was he crazy or a liar?
    it would be silly to believe he actually did any of the 'magic' stuff from the bible: walking on water, healing by touch, turn water to wine, resurrection, etc. it would be silly to believe he was the son of an invisible sky god. if he did exist, he was just a man, just a cult leader, no different than david koresh.

    so did jesus believe that he had magic powers? if so, he was crazy.
    or did jesus know he was selling snake oil, telling people he could do magic, that he was a demi-god?

    jesus, crazy or liar?

    December 27, 2013 at 2:48 pm |
    • Dyslexic doG

      both

      December 27, 2013 at 2:54 pm |
    • AverageJoe76

      How about merely 'legend', as opposed to 'crazy' or 'liar' or 'crazy-liar'. Lol

      December 27, 2013 at 3:00 pm |
    • Austin

      you all have much humor, i now would get along great with you all! I enjoy writing to you too.

      December 27, 2013 at 3:02 pm |
      • skeptic AL

        Uh, no, he also is a scientist and holds exclusive access to logic and reason. Like all of us atheists. We actually are as awesome and smart as we tell you!

        December 27, 2013 at 3:06 pm |
        • In Santa we trust

          Do you have any evidence of a god? No, else you'd provide it.
          Do you have any evidence that science is anti-god? No because it isn't, it just undermines the traditional basis for religion and the power that religion has in society.

          December 27, 2013 at 3:13 pm |
        • In atheism we hate

          Do you have any evidence of a god? No, else you'd provide it.

          IF I CAN'T PROVE IT TO INSANTAWETRUST THAN IT MUST BE FALSE. HE KNOWS ALL THERE IS TO KNOW ABOUT EVERYTHING.
          Or else he is just another internet atheist troll.

          Do you have any evidence that science is anti-god? No because it isn't, it just undermines the traditional basis for religion and the power that religion has in society.

          SCIENCE AND RELIGION ARE NOT AGAINST EACH OTHER. SCIENCE DOESN'T LEAD ALL PEOPLE TO ATHEISM. RELIGION IS NOT THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL STUPIDITY IS. AND STUPIDITY EXISTS IN ATHEISM.

          YOU NEED TO GET AN EDUCATION, AND NOT BE JUST ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF A STUPID ATHEIST RICHARD DAWKINS WANNABE.

          December 27, 2013 at 3:18 pm |
        • Internet Atheist

          Ohhhhh, how Chriiistian of you.
          smug smug smarm.

          December 27, 2013 at 3:19 pm |
        • In Santa we trust

          Do you believe in Zeus or Vishnu or any of the other thousands of gods? You must since you can't prove they don't exist. There is no more evidence for your god than there is for any of the others; no more evidence for your god than there is for unicorns.
          If you had anything you'd present it.

          December 27, 2013 at 3:29 pm |
        • In google I search

          "Christians reject Zeus, for example, because Zeus is supposed to exist in time and space, and therefore could not be the cause of the beginning of time and space."

          (atheist logical fallacies)

          December 27, 2013 at 3:49 pm |
        • fred

          In Santa we trust
          I see by the names of gods you toss about that you are not even slightly aware of the difference between man made gods and God. This is why you also can only accept something physical (material) as evidence. Some people lack the mental capacity to grasp the notion of love just as sociopaths have no emotional connection to cutting up little puppies. If you do have capacity to grasp what is not material then you cannot be an atheist. That sense which has awareness of something outside the physical is present in close to 90% of the population of the world. People must and have over all recorded history assigned God or gods to what that awareness points to.
          Now, do you seriously claim you sense nothing beyond what you can bang your head against and draw blood?

          December 27, 2013 at 4:00 pm |
        • Andy

          Just because there are different truth claims made by different groups, doesn’t mean no one is correct. Mormons believe that matter existed eternally, and Jews believe it was created out of nothing. The big bang theory shows that the Mormons are wrong and the Jews are right.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:07 pm |
        • In Santa we trust

          fred
          All gods are man-made. Hindus and other religions believe as strongly as you do that their gods are real and therefore that yours is not.

          Is there any verifiable evidence of the metaphysical?

          You totally misjudge me if you feel that the fact that I see no evidence for your god is a sign that I lack the mental capacity to grasp the notion of love.
          You are in exactly the same situation when it comes to the other gods and religions.

          Just because close to 90% of the world's population attribute their existence to a supernatural being doesn't mean that it is true – after all you don't believe in the gods of Hinduism, Shintoism, etc. You have no evidence that there is a god and none that your god is superior to the others.

          Gods were created to explain the randomness and uncertainty inherent in the flux of life; we now know what causes earthquakes, tsunamis, floods, thunder, eclipses, etc. and a supernatural cause is no longer needed. A large percentage of children today get an education and it is hard to reconcile modern knowledge with the belief in ancient superstitions, but time will erode the grip of religion. Human desire for comprehension gives power to the priest that "deciphers" god's will. Religion has held that power often in cahoots with "royalty" and it may take a while before it's hold is diminished.

          December 27, 2013 at 4:19 pm |
        • fred

          In Santa we trust

          "All gods are man-made. Hindus and other religions believe as strongly as you do that their gods are real and therefore that yours is not. "
          =>No, there are man-made gods of nature and kinds but all have material presence whereas God does not as God simply is. Man-made gods include the object of naturalism and materialism which atheists and agnostics cling. I have yet to read a post from a non believer on this site whose object is not self. When we claim to have capacity or eventually develop capacity to control and know what has never been subject to mans control or knowledge we have a man-made god and it is self.

          "Is there any verifiable evidence of the metaphysical?"
          =>skipping over argument related to definition of metaphysical I am not aware of any evidence that conforms to scientific method which is verifiable when it comes to God. Other gods depending on variety can be proven not to exist because they are of the natural or physical which can be verified. In short when man or material object claims to be God that is verifiable and has always been proven false to date.

          "You totally misjudge me if you feel that the fact that I see no evidence for your god is a sign that I lack the mental capacity to grasp the notion of love."
          =>not at all, but there are certain conditions where the concept of God cannot be embraced emotionally and we need to be aware of those situations. One can reject God for various personal, psychological and neurological reasons.

          ""Just because close to 90% of the world's population attribute....."
          =>correct ad populum was not evoked as even some dogs have webbed feet yet are not ducks. However, it is evidence of a human trait to seek outside of self for that which is evident yet unknown.

          "Gods were created to explain the randomness and uncertainty...."
          =>yes gods were created by man but man cannot create God. Your suggestion that "a supernatural cause is no longer needed" is nonsense given we have always had and will always have a God gap to fill.

          " Religion has held that power often in cahoots with "royalty" and it may take a while before it's hold is diminished."
          =>wonderful then power will only be cahoots with power and we are in big trouble. In case you have not noticed we have always been under the influence of a majority that looked to the heavens and worshiped. God forbid all we have is hopelessness in cahoots with power.

          December 27, 2013 at 5:06 pm |
  19. Dyslexic doG

    bye everyone. I'm feeling a bit cross so I'm off for a lay down behind my big rock.

    if you look for me in 3 days and I am not in my cave then I must have been resurrected and become part of the quadrune god. I mean, what other explanation could there possibly be?!?!

    December 27, 2013 at 2:45 pm |
    • a mirror

      feeble

      December 27, 2013 at 3:07 pm |
      • Kelso

        BURN!!!!

        December 27, 2013 at 3:09 pm |
  20. Jesus' Beloved

    Hi Austin... re: Mary... sure, go ahead.
    I absolutely do not think you're a bigot.
    It's easy to tell those who are in the process of renewing their minds.

    December 27, 2013 at 2:37 pm |
    • Sea Otter (Leader Allied Atheist Alliance)

      Tour Guide: And that whistling sound is why we call this the Cave of the Winds.
      Steven's Wife: Take a picture of the sound, Steven.

      December 27, 2013 at 2:41 pm |
      • Sea Otter (Leader Allied Atheist Alliance)

        Stan or Kyle: What do ManBearPig droppings look like?
        Al Gore: Kind of like pig droppings but more man-bear like.

        Al Gore: I'm super serial.

        Al Gore: Why does nobody believe that I'm serial?

        December 27, 2013 at 2:43 pm |
    • Maddy

      I didn't say he was a bigot. I said he was a religious bigot. Against Catholics.

      December 27, 2013 at 2:52 pm |
      • Austin

        its ok i cherish your person , i don't want to change who you are. Im sorry i hurt your feelings.

        December 27, 2013 at 2:53 pm |
      • Jesus' Beloved

        Hi Maddy, I honestly don't believe Austin hates anyone. It's counterproductive to the Spirit that dwells in him.

        I must say I agree 100% with his argument though. The Bible is the inerrant word of God - nowhere in it's pages do I see anyone praying to saints or through saints.

        Even angels never accepted praise/worship from man.

        I think it's always best to let the Bible be the measure for anything. If you heard it in church, check the Bible, anything that's there you keep, anything that doesn't match up with the word of God, you must reject.

        December 27, 2013 at 2:59 pm |
        • Maddy

          There was no such thing as saints when the NT was written. Of course there is no mention of saints; they came from early Christianity. Martyrs. You know.

          The OT was mainly about the Israelites. Jewish.

          Catholics teach the NT.
          St. Paul wasn't a saint yet when the Gospels were written.
          St. John the Evangelist wasn't a saint yet.

          I can't explain it any better than that.

          If you don't accept the premise of saints, I understand.

          I do.

          December 27, 2013 at 3:24 pm |
        • Austin

          what premise of saints, you are a saint. we are the saints. but praying to a saint, is worhip. excessive devotion is the definition of worship, and we should worship the Creator, and not the creation.

          December 27, 2013 at 3:28 pm |
    • Austin

      I was wondering how if we Have the holy spirit, as promised, When we pray to God through the son, and the Holy Spirit guides our prayers in utterances within us, why we would seek the intercession of a saint.

      Mary is not omnipresent, and if it says that Christ is the one mediator, then how is acceptable to think that there is any other way we should go in prayer?

      Mary is no different than the people God uses. Elijah and Enoch never died? does the bible say this about Mary? There are no OT examples of praying to a deceased human.

      Can you explain catholic reasoning?

      December 27, 2013 at 2:52 pm |
      • Sharon Falconer

        Why, as I live and breathe! It's Elmer Gantry!

        December 27, 2013 at 2:54 pm |
      • Maddy

        I've explained. You choose not to believe it, or disagree, that's fine.
        Nobody has EVER claimed Mary is omnipresent.
        If you chose not to acknowledge the role Mary had in Jesus's life, that's okay.

        I'll repeat the entreaty:

        Hail, Mary, full of Grace,
        The Lord is with thee.
        Blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb: Jesus.
        Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now , and at the hour of our death.

        And NO, Mary isn't different than any other person God "uses".

        The Catholics teach mainly from the NT, which is what CHRISTIANITY is based upon.

        How is this wrong?

        You know, I am done with this; it's bordering on the absurd.

        I shall, however, continue to call out Christians who condemn other Christians.

        December 27, 2013 at 3:06 pm |
        • Jesus' Beloved

          How can Mary pray for you now and at the hour of your death?

          December 27, 2013 at 3:17 pm |
        • Austin

          Jesus, in Matthew, gave 1 example of how you pray, ....."Our Father" this is consistent with every other prayer in the bible.
          so why trust something invented in 1000 Ad and instilled as "the tradition of men"

          Prayer, is a conversation with God. Mary is not God. The Holy Spirit , or Jesus , would have to pass the prayer to Mary who would pass it back.

          Furthermore, the Holy Spirit, and the Son of God you mediator, are the most powerful and forgiving persons they are God. why would you sidestep them?

          the role of Mary is not worth of worship. God is the author of every soul and spirit.

          December 27, 2013 at 3:25 pm |
        • Maddy

          How do you know she can't?

          December 27, 2013 at 3:26 pm |
        • Johnny Travis

          Jesus also said to pray in private, and yet here you are.

          December 27, 2013 at 3:27 pm |
        • Jesus' Beloved

          Do you know you're no longer a sinner because the issue of sin has been dealt with at the cross. Jesus died for your past, present and future sins.
          Now that sin is forgiven, you believe that Christ came as a man, died, and was resurrected. When you believe – born again, the Holy Spirit (Wisdom) comes to live in you.
          You begin to renew your mind. You die to self – you no longer have a carnal mind. You now have the mind of Christ. You love all because Christ loves all.
          Through this love, you begin to manifest the Kingdom of Heaven. You advance the kingdom by destroying the works of the devil in people's lives. You heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out demons etc. You Love.
          Start learning how to renew your mind and do it.
          I recommend watching some teachings by Curry Blake, Joseph Prince, Andrew Wommack, Todd White.

          When you pray, you pray to Father (God) in Jesus' Name. NO other name under the heavens by which man can be saved.
          At the name of Jesus every knee will bow, that is why when you command sickness and disease to leave in Jesus' name, they have no choice, they have to obey.

          Read the book of James to know who you are in Christ.
          God Bless.

          December 27, 2013 at 3:28 pm |
        • Johnny Travis

          Austin, have you ever asked someone to pray for you?

          December 27, 2013 at 3:28 pm |
        • Austin

          the Holy Spirit is He who guides your prayers . Why would the H.S. guide them to Mary?

          December 27, 2013 at 3:30 pm |
        • Austin

          yes but I can not pray to them to do so. Prayer is not for other people , living or dead. Prayer is only a supernatural communication through the power of God. Saints do not have that provisional role as the receiver and judge of such pet.itions to the heavenly realm.

          we need not become flambouyant, this is only an attempt to add to the "finished work of Christ and the New Covenant Promise (including the gift of the H.S. )

          December 27, 2013 at 3:35 pm |
        • Maddy

          Look. One more time.
          Nobody has ever been a living saint. Therefore, it's not going to be in the NT, written before all of the people Catholics now call saints died.
          Catholics have NEVER called Mary God. That is a false assertion.

          Mathew 7:2:
          For with the judgement you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.

          I have my faith. You have yours.

          Stop bashing Catholics, Austin.

          December 27, 2013 at 3:36 pm |
        • Austin

          Maddy, I am exhorting you and a tradition that could be a fatal downfall.
          Is there another prayer in the NT where Jesus gave us an example of praying to Mary, or just the one where He said you shall pray like this............Our Father.

          When God says "pray like this" , is that a command?
          Prayer, and the definition of Prayer...........can you provide for me , please, your definition for prayer?

          December 27, 2013 at 3:42 pm |
        • Johnny Travis

          So in the end you are not that much different than Catholics, they ask people to pray for them and so do you.

          December 27, 2013 at 3:45 pm |
      • Maddy

        Jesus's Beloved, the way I pray is between my God and I.

        I don't believe there is a right way or wrong way if the words come from the heart.

        Telling someone how/who to pray to seems a little arrogant to me, even if it's well intentioned.

        I have to go now.
        Have a nice evening.

        December 27, 2013 at 3:46 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.