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 Sunday Assembly founders Sanderson Jones and Pippa Evans have begun to franchise their "godless congregations."
January 4th, 2014
09:00 AM ET
After a schism, a question: Can atheist churches last?By Katie Engelhart, special to CNN LONDON (CNN) - The Sunday Assembly was riding high. The world’s most voguish - though not its only - atheist church opened last year in London, to global attention and abundant acclaim. So popular was the premise, so bright the promise, that soon the Sunday Assembly was ready to franchise, branching out into cities such as New York, Dublin and Melbourne. “It’s a way to scale goodness,” declared Sanderson Jones, a standup comic and co-founder of The Sunday Assembly, which calls itself a “godless congregation.” But nearly as quickly as the Assembly spread, it split, with New York City emerging as organized atheism’s Avignon. In October, three former members of Sunday Assembly NYC announced the formation of a breakaway group called Godless Revival. “The Sunday Assembly,” wrote Godless Revival founder Lee Moore in a scathing blog post, “has a problem with atheism.” Moore alleges that, among other things, Jones advised the NYC group to “boycott the word atheism” and “not to have speakers from the atheist community.” It also wanted the New York branch to host Assembly services in a churchlike setting, instead of the Manhattan dive bar where it was launched. Jones denies ordering the NYC chapter to do away with the word “atheism,” but acknowledges telling the group “not to cater solely to atheists.” He also said he advised them to leave the dive bar “where women wore bikinis,” in favor of a more family-friendly venue. The squabbles led to a tiff and finally a schism between two factions within Sunday Assembly NYC. Jones reportedly told Moore that his faction was no longer welcome in the Sunday Assembly movement. Moore promises that his group, Godless Revival, will be more firmly atheistic than the Sunday Assembly, which he now dismisses as “a humanistic cult.” In a recent interview, Jones described the split as “very sad.” But, he added, “ultimately, it is for the benefit of the community. One day, I hope there will soon be communities for every different type of atheist, agnostic and humanist. We are only one flavor of ice cream, and one day we hope there'll be congregations for every godless palate." Nevertheless, the New York schism raises critical questions about the Sunday Assembly. Namely: Can the atheist church model survive? Is disbelief enough to keep a Sunday gathering together? Big-tent atheism I attended my first service last April, when Sunday Assembly was still a rag-tag venture in East London. The service was held in a crumbly, deconsecrated church and largely populated by white 20-somethings with long hair and baggy spring jackets (a group from which I hail.) I wrote that the Assembly “had a wayward, whimsical feel. At a table by the door, ladies served homemade cakes and tea. The house band played Cat Stevens. Our ‘priest’ wore pink skinny jeans.” I judged the effort to be “part quixotic hipster start-up, part Southern megachurch.” The central idea was attractive enough. The Assembly described itself as a secular urban oasis, where atheists could enjoy the benefits of traditional church - the sense of community, the weekly sermon, the scheduled time for reflection, the community service opportunities, the ethos of self-improvement, the singing and the free food - without God. I liked the vibe and the slogan: “Live Better, Help Often, Wonder More.” Shortly thereafter, Assembly services began bringing in hundreds of similarly warm-and-fuzzy nonbelievers. The wee East London church grew too small, and the Assembly moved to central London’s more elegant Conway Hall. The Assembly drew criticism, to be sure—from atheists who fundamentally object to organized disbelief, from theists who resent the pillaging of their texts and traditions. But coverage was largely positive - and it was everywhere. In September, a second wave of coverage peaked, with news that the Assembly was franchising: across England, Scotland, Ireland, Canada, the United States and Australia. That month, the founders launched a crowd-funding campaign that aims to raise $802,500. (As of mid-December, less than $56,000 had been raised.) Still, prospective Sunday Assembly franchisers seemed exhilarated. Los Angeles chapter founder Ian Dodd enthused that he would “have a godless congregation in the city of angels.” In November, his inaugural Assembly drew more than 400 attendees. But as the atheist church grew, it began to change—and to move away from its atheism. “How atheist should our Assembly be?” wrote Jones in August. “The short answer to that is: not very.” Pippa Evans, Assembly’s other co-founder, elaborated: “‘Atheist Church’ as a phrase has been good to us. It has got us publicity. But the term ‘atheist’ does hold negative connotations.” Warm-and-fuzzy atheism gave way to not-quite atheism: or at least a very subdued, milquetoast nonbelief. Sunday services made much mention of “whizziness” and “wonder”—but rarely spoke of God’s nonexistence. The newer, bigger Sunday Assembly now markets itself as a kind of atheist version of Unitarian Univeralism: irreligious, but still eager to include everyone. In a way, this is a smart move. According to the 2012 Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, 20% of Americans have no religious affiliation, but just a fraction of those identify as atheists. A godless congregation is likely to draw crowds if it appeals to what Herb Silverman, founder of the Secular Coalition for America, calls “big-tent” atheism, which includes “agnostics, humanists, secular humanists, freethinkers, nontheists, anti-theists, skeptics, rationalists, naturalists, materialists, ignostics, apatheists, and more.” But atheists who wanted a firmly atheist church—a Sunday Assembly where categorical disbelief is discussed and celebrated—will not be satisfied. As the Sunday Assembly downplays its atheism, it also appears increasingly churchlike. Starting a Sunday Assembly chapter now involves a “Sunday Assembly Everywhere accreditation process,” which grants “the right to use all the Sunday Assembly materials, logos, positive vibe and goodwill.” Aspiring Sunday Assembly founders must form legal entities and attend “training days in the UK,” sign the Sunday Assembly Charter and pass a three- to six-month peer review. Only then may formal accreditation be granted. This is not an East London hipster hyper-localism anymore. Selling swag and charisma Organized atheism is not necessarily new. French Revolutionaries, for instance, were early atheist entrepreneurs. In 1793, secularists famously seized the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris, to build a “Temple of Reason.” They decorated the church with busts of philosophers, built an altar to Reason, lit a torch of Truth - and brought in an actress to play Liberty. A half-century later, French philosopher Auguste Comte drew acclaim for his “religion of humanity,” which imagined an army of secular sages ministering to secular souls. London has hosted formal atheist gatherings for almost as long. History suggests, then, that there is nothing inherently anti-organization about atheism. As Assembly’s Sanderson Jones puts it, “things which are organized are not necessarily bad.” To be sure, Sunday Assembly members in the United States say they've long wanted to join atheist congregations. Ian Dodd, a 50-something camera operator in Los Angeles, had long been a member of the Unitarian Universalist Church; he enjoyed it, but wanted something more explicitly irreligious. Nicole Steeves of the Chicago chapter found herself yearning for a secular community—a “place to check in and think about things bigger than the day-to-day”—after having her first child. But it is one thing to support an atheist "church" - where the ‘c’ is small and the effort is local - and another to back an atheist ‘Church’ that is global and centralized. The former responds directly to the needs and fancies of its community. The latter assumes that its particular brand of disbelief is universally relevant—and worthy of trademark. Centralized atheism also feeds hungrily on charisma, and Sanderson Jones, who resembles a tall, bearded messiah - and who, despite the SA recommendation that Assembly hosts should be regularly rotated, dominates each London service - provides ample fuel. But it remains to be seen whether the Sunday Assembly’s diluted godlessness is meaty enough to sustain a flock. “Because it is a godless congregation, we don’t have a doctrine to rely on,” explains Sunday Assembly Melbourne’s founder, “so we take reference from everything in the world.” So far, Assembly sermonizers had included community workers, physicists, astronomers, wine writers, topless philanthropers, futurologists, happiness experts, video game enthusiasts, historians and even a vicar. The pulpit is open indeed. My own misgivings are far less academic. I’m simply not getting what the Sunday Assembly promised. I’m not put off by the secular church model, but rather the prototype. Take an October service in London, for example: Instead of a thoughtful sermon, I got a five-minute Wikipedia-esque lecture on the history of particle physics. Instead of receiving self-improvement nudges or engaging in conversation with strangers, I watched the founders fret (a lot) over technical glitches with the web streaming, talk about how hard they had worked to pull the service off, and try to sell me Sunday Assembly swag. What’s more, instead of just hop, skipping and jumping over to a local venue, as I once did, I now had to brave the tube and traverse the city. Back in New York, Lee Moore is gearing up for the launch of Godless Revival - but still speaks bitterly of his time with the Sunday Assembly network. Over the telephone, I mused that the experience must have quashed any ambition he ever had to build a multinational atheist enterprise. “Actually,” he admitted, “we do have expansion aims.” Katie Engelhart is a London-based writer. Follow her at @katieengelhart or www.katieengelhart.com. |
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it appears that the Atheists/Godless groups have learned to do it the same way as the accepted religious organizations & churches, have political like splits that form the different facets of religion that we have today. So therefore the un-Church is born.
For new members of this blog:
Churches for atheists? Give us a break!! It is obvious a money-making con. We will see when said "church" files their IRS Form 990 this year.
Yes. It's dumb to admit that we have no answers rather than point to a 2000 year old recycled scripture that will die out much like its predecessors. Or do you believe in Zeus?...
Not believing in scripture? You are very confused.
Atheism is the LACK of belief. It claims no beliefs.
Religion:
.. the belief in a god or in a group of gods
: an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group
So both sides can say they are right and it still DOESN'T MATTER at all.
The theology debate is mostly a problem of semantics. If we define the human person as God and all being equal we have a formula based on a universal axiom that is all inclusive. It could be called humanism or whatever but would not exclude any thiestic concepts established although from the individual worldview evil is what is against each person and enlightenment is simply to know the common good defined as everything) hat is or heaven on Earth. Eternal life is in the present from zero to infinity.
And then there is this:
The Apostles'/Agnostics’ Creed 2013: (updated by yours truly and based on the studies of historians and theologians of the past 200 years)
Should I believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven??
I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)
Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,
He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of
Jerusalem.
Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by
many semi-fiction writers. A descent into Hell, a bodily resurrection
and ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.
Amen
(references used are available upon request)
And this:
"Death's Debt is Paid in
Full
Death's debt is then and there
Paid down by dying men;
But it is a promise bare
That they shall rise again. "
Al-Ma'arri
JJ. To answer your question. Yes.
What question was that?
The only question you asked me in your post. The answer is yes
which post
Oh..how odd...you incoherently started a brand new thread and didn't answer within the appropriate one. Your answer is "yes" to the following? This is astounding! You are the first human on the planet to have this evidence. Please share!
"What made you suspend logic and reason after 35 years? Did you all the sudden discover evidence of the existence of a deity? Did you even go further and decide this god had an actual son who was named Jesus?"
Atheists should have a place to hang out, but to call it a church would be confusing to the religious people.
They might think atheism is a religion .
That's because it is a religion silly!
Take that up with Merriam-Webster you moron. You can't make your own definitions up in order to make yourself immune from reality.
The guy looks like Jesus Christ Super Star.
LOL
Ted Neeley
why do all the atheists look similar? they should be on the cover of an indie album or something
Why do all Christians look like Rev. Ted Haggard or Benny Hinn?
[youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY83xQLUQLg&w=640&h=360]
[youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05GAeQ45YxU&w=640&h=360]
Atheists do not believe they have a soul. People of faith, any faith, believe they do. This is the core of all faiths. Its that simple. To argue that there is no God, is to also believe you have no soul. That your life ends when you die, while people who believe in God, myself include, share the belief that something happens to our soul when we die and there are consequences as to how we lived our lives, that determines where our souls go.
Post by 'eyeswideopen' is an instance of a Strawman Argument.
http://fallacyfiles.org/glossary.html
Yes, this is a great example of a straw man.
LOL, I was an atheist for over 35 years. (yawn) Its the same o same o that I would say myself. Seen it, heard it, done it.
What made you suspend logic and reason after 35 years? Did you all the sudden discover evidence of the existence of a deity? Did you even go further and decide this god had an actual son who was named Jesus?
[Cue music for The Squished Kitty Chronicles]
Everything you say is correct. It would be also correct to add people of faith feel justified in their actions .
Much like suicide bombers.
No I disagree. Their just disturbed human beings that would take another life.
In the Bible God is responsible for over 2,000,000 deaths.
2,000,000? Ha...he slaughtered far more than that. Remember all the men, women and children and pregnant women he drowned in the great flood. Think of all the abortions he perform every second of every day via miscarriages.
If they think love is nothing more than brain chemicals, they shouldn't be allowed to have kids.
If you think that some magic sky fairy is speaking to you then you shouldn't be allowed to have kids.
If you tell your children that we cease to exist after we die is a depressing belief and you shouldn't be allowed to have children.
"If you tell your children that we cease to exist after we die is a depressing belief and you shouldn’t be allowed to have children."
If you raise your kids to believe only what is comforting & to disregard inconvenient facts, you're doing them a terrible disservice. Part of growing into adulthood is understanding the real world, & accepting that it isn't all about us.
If you force feed nonsense down your children's throats you shouldn't be allowed to have children.
I understand that religious people believe that there is life after death.
Unfortunately, when you die, your body transforms first to maggots, then flies until all flesh is consumed or
dried to dust.
Sorry about that eye opener.
So you don't believe you have a soul. Just say that . Of course I know my body will decay and turn to dust when I'm gone. as will yours. Its a question of whether or not you believe you have a soul. So do you believe you have a soul? Yes or no?
Many people talk of a soul, but as there's no evidence of a god, it's not something that carries on after you die.
What is a soul?
"For you are dust, and to dust you shall return" Gen 3:19 Richard the Bible agrees with your point of view but it also gives us hope for a resurrection from the state of non existence Acts 24:15.
Why in the world would you consult an ancient book to find out if you get to live in some form or another after you die!?
All people who do not believe in god do not believe they have a soul? Ignorance..
This whole article is kind of a red herring. Most atheists that I know have no need of a church. Personally, I'd rather not be associated at all with the religious connotations that are inevitable with the word "church".
I'm Agnostic, and feel the exact same way, I don't want to be a part of ANYTHING called a Church, or anything gathering overtly Churchlike.
So atheism is a religion? Suck on that fact atheists!
Yep, and I'm starting a "church" based on the worship of rocks. Wanna join?
Is that your lame way of denying that atheism is indeed a religion? Heard all the excuses in the book. Atheism is and will always be a religion.
Or not
No Name, as people with names have said,
"Atheism is no more a religion than bald is a hair color."
"Atheism is no more a religion than not collecting stamps is a hobby."
Maybe that will help you begin to understand.
Lame excuse is still a lame excuse. Save your bull. Atheism IS a religion regardless of the lies you say,.
No, my quoted statements are correct. You just lack the courage to admit it.
And what are the tenants of this atheist religion you seem to think exists?
How can you have a religion based on the how you answer a single question about reality? I'll be first to admit this church was a dumb idea, but really, you are trying too hard.
No it's not a religion. You will notice this problem is happening because it seems one group seems to moving more towards introducing god
LOL its still a religion! ^_^
How is it in any way a religion?
By atheistic logic, any religion that has a church is a religious cult thus atheism is also a religion and a cult. Atheist logic BUSTED!
My forehead busted from slapping it so hard.
Yeah that logic only works if atheists as a collective group had churches, which they don't, but even that logic fails if you believe the term church used here is the same as a religious place of worship.
Blah Blah Blah. Atheism is indeed a religion. Shove it atheists!
You probably have one of those honor roll bumper stickers on your car don't you...
Why is atheism a religion? Can you tell us?
It would be fun to read your thoughts.
Ha, really? That's your argument huh? So you are reduced to either a troll or a hypocrite believer.
Me a troll? No, more like speaker of truth. Atheist lies cannot defeat truth. Atheism IS a religion. Get over it.
No Name,
NOPE. It all depends on which dictionary definition is used.
Then a hypocrite believer then. I'm not fussed.
Now I know for a fact that atheism is indeed a religion. Look how many atheists are trying to claim its not! Just proving my point more ^_^
That passes for logic with you does it?
How can an atheist group want to introduce something it claims doesn't exist? That's confusing.
I would suggest some agnostics got in.
So, can I now get together with some fellow atheists and become tax exempt? What about starting a group that practices the hobby of NOT collecting stamps?
Atheists overuse that lame excuse. If you can't accept that atheism is a religion, you do it for a selfish and ignorant reason. If you actually admitted to yourself and to the world atheism is a religion, atheists couldn't attack and mock religion anymore. That's why internet atheists won't do it. Your childish world would be shattered.
Childish world? I'm sorry. Maybe everyone should believe in fairy tales and magical beings like you.
Atheism is a fairy tale.
No Name,
Like the talking non-humans, unicorns and dragons in the Bible?
And the atheistic explanation of the origin of life is better?! LOL!!!! Atheists give a good laugh at how stupid and dumb their beliefs are!
Not believing in scripture? You are very confused.
Atheism is the LACK of belief. It claims no beliefs
No Name,
Do you believe in talking non-humans, unicorns and dragons like the Bible says?
Yes. It's dumb to admit that we have no answers rather than point to a 2000 year old recycled scripture that will die out much like its predecessors. Or do you believe in Zeus?...
I hope you're only 9 years old then you might be somewhat forgiven for being so brainwashed by your parents and just ignorant. If you are any older then I suggest you educate yourself a bit and seek out a trusted adult who can help you.
Let's get back to his original claim:
If you can't accept that atheism is a religion, you do it for a selfish and ignorant reason.
What is the argument here? Atheism most certainly is not a religion because it is the lack of belief. I don't understand the selfish ness and ignorance. There is no logic used to connect a lack of belief with be selfish or ignorant. If anything, atheism claims ignorance of answers, whereas religions claim to have ally he answers, which science proves daily to be utterly ridiculous.
A tweet from astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson today:
If Noah's flood carved the Grand Canyon 4400 yrs ago, then it nicely exposed rocks at the bottom, laid 2-billion yrs earlier.
No Name
There is no atheistic explanation of the origin of life. We don't know the origin of life yet although there are several possibilities that seem most likely, but that doesn't mean a god did it.
There is scientific evidence of Big Bang, geology, evolution, and more which show that the creation myths are incorrect, and that personal gods as described by the various religious texts do not exist.
No name suddenly facts are important to you for some reason?
Somebody smelt an opportunity and started an atheist "church". Another guy saw the opportunity too, and split to do his own "church". I detect the scent of money.
I don't find anything wrong with atheists getting together to share their thoughts about the world in which they live. I don't think a church is an ideal setting for atheists, it might make more sense to find a place without religious anchors. Maybe these particular athiests are using churches to become recognized as a religion being a non-religion for tax purposes. Maybe these people are gathering to perhaps try and gain enough numbers to create political gravitas, and effect change.
A non-religion religion ! LOL! Will the atheist church members pray to the Dear Leader?
If I looked like they did, I might be inclined to say there is no God as well.....
Organized religion is a business. Anyone who thinks otherwise is naive.
I'm not religious but really what is the point of this church? Give it up....we already have enough idiots pushing for useless causes that detract from the real issues
Seems xtheists have two looks....the grainy granolas–see the pic under the headline to this article, or the guys who wear the black dress shirts with black jeans. they'll usually opt out of the hair coloring: that shock of silver hair just breathes wisdom.
really?
From your stupid post it's obvious you know very little about wisdom. Now, off you go, you little indoctrinated sheep you.
They say imitation is the highest form of flattery. Way to go xtheists. Your compliment is taken. HA
They are just fucking with you Christians and laughing at you and you are falling for it as intended. Congrats. What an imbecile!