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Supreme Court to hear abortion clinic case
The Supreme Court hears a contentious case about abortion clinics on Wednesday.
January 15th, 2014
09:50 AM ET

Supreme Court to hear abortion clinic case

By Bill Mears, CNN

Boston (CNN) - Outside the Planned Parenthood Clinic in Boston on a recent winter day are the regulars - a small, devoted team of anti-abortion activists, handing out fliers and urging patrons to hear their message: "Save that child." "Every life is precious, protect that life within you." "Please change your mind." Several people pray silently nearby.

Clearly marked on the sidewalk, nearly 12 yards from the front doors, is a painted boundary, a line the protesters cannot cross. By state law, their First Amendment rights stop there.

A metaphoric line - testing the competing limits of what has become a constitutional fight between free speech and public safety - will now be surveyed by the nation's highest court.

The justices on Wednesday will step back into the larger national debate on abortion, when it holds oral arguments on a challenge to a Massachusetts law that established tighter buffer zones around facilities that perform the procedure.

FULL STORY
- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Abortion • Courts • Culture wars • Ethics • Women

soundoff (792 Responses)
  1. Billy

    From cnn home page: 50 dogs and 12 puppies rescued from minivan in Ohio.

    Who cares what the quality of life was for all those dogs......at least, according to our extreme right-to-life nutcases out there, they were all given the opportunity to live........idiots.

    January 15, 2014 at 2:43 pm |
    • You sound like you hate people

      And puppies

      January 15, 2014 at 3:55 pm |
  2. Mopery

    Ban c i r c u m c i s i o n until age 18, give the poor lil fellers a chance! Tax money is currently being used to subsidize this barbaric ritual, stop the persecution of our young boys now!

    January 15, 2014 at 2:42 pm |
    • General comment

      Agreed

      January 15, 2014 at 4:02 pm |
  3. No atheism please

    Some atheists feel strongly about gay marriage and abortion because it's popular. Take away the popularity that mainstream news produces and boom! Atheists wouldn't cherry pick uses based on popularity.

    January 15, 2014 at 1:37 pm |
    • Alias

      Popular? Right.
      We atheists have no moral code or any reason to respect the rights of another.

      We are just jealous that you get to hate a bunch of people that we don't.

      January 15, 2014 at 1:41 pm |
    • Jeff

      Oh, yeah, because abortion and gays are so popular. Right. What an ignorant statement.

      January 15, 2014 at 1:41 pm |
      • No atheism please

        Gay marriage and abortion have been popular for years. Most atheists will stalk mainstream news everyday just to attack believers with a story that they didn't partake on. Happens ALL the time especially with the internet atheist keyboard warriors types.

        January 15, 2014 at 1:54 pm |
        • Jeff

          Hetero marriage and abortion have been popular for years. Most Christians will stalk and do the sane thing; hence your post.

          January 15, 2014 at 1:57 pm |
        • Alias

          If only we would act more like christians.

          January 15, 2014 at 1:58 pm |
        • It's all about the money....

          Popular? More like incredibly unpopular.
          Christians are the popular "mean girls" while (shockingly) gays and pro-choicers are the unpopular nerds.

          I think what you actually meant is that taking away the rights of gays and dismantling abortion are popular opinions of religious folks.

          January 15, 2014 at 2:17 pm |
        • Dyslexic doG

          it's so popular you done both a couple of times each. Aren't you glad you're popular now?

          January 15, 2014 at 2:34 pm |
    • Cal

      And the reverse would be implied for Christians . Of all of the over 600 sins listed in the Bible, why so much focus on just a few.

      January 15, 2014 at 2:22 pm |
    • Doris

      "Take away the popularity that mainstream news produces..."

      I wouldn't advocate a diet of mainstream news for anyone, but I think you are attempting to explain away a generally more informed "connected" public as something else to suit your "argument".

      January 15, 2014 at 2:23 pm |
    • K-switch

      Is that you Brony?

      January 15, 2014 at 2:24 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      Many atheists feel strongly about gay marriage and abortion because theses issues pertain to fairness and equality.

      The issues are equal protection under the law and no one should be compelled to do something against their will.

      Media topicality is irrelevant.

      January 15, 2014 at 2:42 pm |
    • Ben

      The atheist voice has been pretty consistent on such things for the past 100 years, long before anyone could ever call them "popular".

      January 15, 2014 at 3:10 pm |
    • General comment

      Marriage equality hurts no one, it's the lack of marriage equality that causes pain. Don't you even try to put that in the same category as the other topic.

      January 15, 2014 at 3:56 pm |
  4. It's all about the money....

    Am I the only one that feels this way?
    I think abortion is disgusting and if I were a female I don't imagine I could ever get one.
    However, I do believe women should have the right to do it if they want to. It doesn't effect me, I don't think any child would want to be born unwanted and the poverty level is rising so I doubt more abandoned babies would help this.
    I also think the fact that abortion is disgusting to me is a personal fact, and has nothing to do with the legality of this procedure being available for women who want it.
    Why are men legislating this? Very strange, seeing as how they could NEVER EVER understand what it's like to be pregnant for 9 months.
    To all the people who want all these babies to survive for some reason? You should be forced to adopt them...I think every person picketing outside an abortion clinic should be given that unwanted baby their obsessed with. Seriously, do some fundie white Christians wanted some crack-addict black baby to raise? How about 10 in the same day?
    Until we have a problem with underpopulation within the human race, there is NO legitimate reason why abortion should be illegal.

    January 15, 2014 at 1:14 pm |
    • R.M. Goodswell

      Right to Lifers might have a leg to stand on IF there were no unwanted children needing adoption. They might have a leg to stand on IF they showed the slightest amount of compassion for the people they would force into parenthood if they had their way.If I could save a couple 18+ years of financial wreckage, hardships and a child from suffering a possible backlash and life of disadvantage just by staying out of the way I surely would.

      January 15, 2014 at 1:35 pm |
      • Jeff

        Most aren't pro-life. They are pro-forced birth. They couldn't care less about what happens once that baby if through the birth canal.

        January 15, 2014 at 1:47 pm |
        • Jeff

          *is through the birth canal.

          January 15, 2014 at 1:48 pm |
        • doobzz

          I agree. That's why I call them anti choice instead of pro life.

          January 15, 2014 at 2:27 pm |
      • Winston

        "I could save a couple 18+ years of financial wreckage, hardships and a child from suffering a possible backlash and life of disadvantage just by staying out of the way I surely would."

        Why doesn't that philosophy also apply if the child is, say, one month old? I assume your answer is that it would be murder at that point. But that's what plenty of people are saying about it before birth, too.

        January 15, 2014 at 2:05 pm |
        • G to the T

          One is a person, the other is a potential person. I'll always favor the actual over the potential.

          Abortions – safe, legal and rare is the best way to go. IMOHO.

          January 15, 2014 at 2:17 pm |
        • JB

          G to the T: We as a society haven't really determined when a fetus becomes a "person". If we were to resolve that, the abortion issue automatically resolves.

          January 15, 2014 at 2:21 pm |
        • Winston

          JB

          Agreed.

          January 15, 2014 at 2:33 pm |
    • Winston

      The abortion debate in this country is way off track. It is not a question of women's rights. It's not about religion.

      The real question is: At what point in a pregnancy does our society consider abortion to const.itute a murder? Period. This is what the real debate should be about.

      If we reach a consensus that it's murder at any point of the pregnancy, obviously a woman will not have a right to terminate at all. If it's determined it's not murder at any point of the pregnancy, then a woman will have a right to terminate at any point. Those two are obvious. Most likely, though, it would be determined that it becomes murder at some point in between.

      And if a Consti.tutional amendment is required, then why not do that?

      I never understand the extremist arguments from either side. Life begins at conception? A high percentage of fertilized eggs do not implant naturally. Nobody should have to raise a child they don't want? Why does that argument end after a child is born? If it's murder, it doesn't matter if the child has been born or not. A woman should have the right way what happens with her own body? Of course, but the problem is that there are two bodies involved.

      Like I said, once we determine when it becomes murder, the rest gets settled automatically.

      January 15, 2014 at 1:40 pm |
      • Winston

        "right way" should say "right to say".

        January 15, 2014 at 1:43 pm |
      • Alias

        I agree with most of what you are saying, but you are leaving out a lot of important factors.

        January 15, 2014 at 1:56 pm |
        • Winston

          Can you explain?

          January 15, 2014 at 2:00 pm |
        • Alias

          Health issues for the mother.
          severe health issues with the child – google spinal bifida
          r@pe, incest

          January 15, 2014 at 2:21 pm |
        • Winston

          Alias – Do you believe that a mother has a right to decide to terminate the life of her one-year old child because the child reminds her of her rapist? I'm supposing not, that you would consider that murder. Why is it not murder simply because a child has not physically been born yet? That's why I'm saying the debate needs to be about when it's murder. If we conclude it's never murder then fine, but let's have the debate.

          January 15, 2014 at 2:30 pm |
        • Tammi

          Winston – Good point that also applies to children with physical or cognitive imperfections.

          January 15, 2014 at 2:43 pm |
      • It's all about the money....

        Honestly, this feel like your trying to make the issue "either this or that". The question regarding abortion is not "is it considered murder?"
        Most of us don't even know how to properly define the fetus as living or nonliving, clusters of cells vs growing living tissue, who knows?
        You make the question regarding abortion about "murder", then you've already decided it's a human being. But alas, not everyone believes a bunch of growing cells are human.
        You frame the question in such a way that it sounds evil NOT to agree abortion is murder. The "real" problem here is people like you, who can manipulate confused people into agreeing with you or feeling guilty by twisting around syntax.
        I don't believe abortion is murder, because I don't think living cells with the potential to grow into a human are actually human.

        January 15, 2014 at 2:09 pm |
        • Winston

          "Most of us don't even know how to properly define the fetus as living or nonliving"

          And yet you seem pretty comfortable that it's nonliving.

          "You make the question regarding abortion about "murder", then you've already decided it's a human being."

          No, I'm saying that we as a society need to reach a consensus about when it's a human being. At that point, terminating it becomes murder.

          January 15, 2014 at 2:14 pm |
        • Winston

          " The question regarding abortion is not "is it considered murder?""

          But that was the point of my original post–you're right, that's not what's being debated, but it should be what's being debated.

          January 15, 2014 at 2:17 pm |
        • It's all about the money....

          @Winston
          "No, I'm saying that we as a society need to reach a consensus about when it's a human being. At that point, terminating it becomes murder."
          Honey, it's a human being on the day it's born. before that it is a cluster of cells that form into a parasite that leeches off the host for months.
          You can rationalize this or that, but the day of your conception is not the day you're human. It's the day your born, hence your "birthday". Duh.

          January 15, 2014 at 2:21 pm |
        • Winston

          "Honey, it's a human being on the day it's born. before that it is a cluster of cells that form into a parasite that leeches off the host for months."

          Yes, it's clear that you believe that. I personally see that as not giving any real effort to think about it. That's why I say we need to debate the issue as a society and reach a consensus about it.

          January 15, 2014 at 2:25 pm |
        • Pete

          It was debated ad nauseum. And has been decided pretty definitively. Why are you changing the goalposts? If a woman is against abortion, she won't get one. Not up to men to decide.

          January 15, 2014 at 2:41 pm |
        • Winston

          Pete

          Oh? What was the decision? At what point does an abortion const.itute a murder?

          January 15, 2014 at 2:45 pm |
        • Pete

          Abortion had been debated ad nauseum. Good Lord stop being disingenuous.
          It's legal.

          January 15, 2014 at 2:50 pm |
        • Winston

          Yes, abortion is legal, but with different restrictions in different states. Most people don't subscribe to the idea that abortion should be legal all the way up to the day before birth. The issue is clearly not resolved. All I'm saying is that we need to define a point when it becomes murder, and stop needlessly arguing about whether or not it's a right. If it's murder it's not a right–if it's not murder it is a right. Resolves all the issues.

          January 15, 2014 at 2:55 pm |
        • Tammi

          "Most people don't subscribe to the idea that abortion should be legal all the way up to the day before birth"

          You're right, only extremists take that view, so clearly most people think a fetus becomes a person at some point before birth. I see what you're saying, that if we define that point clearly the abortion issue gets resolved. I guess I don't see how we could ever reach an agreement on that point, though.

          January 15, 2014 at 3:02 pm |
        • Alias

          That point is clearly defined in each state.
          There is a time limit as to when an abortion can be performed.

          Exceptions canbe made fo rmedical problems.

          January 15, 2014 at 3:12 pm |
      • JB

        Winston: I tend to agree with you. I especially don't understand the arguments about a child causing hardship, or what about r.ape, etc. If it's murder, what difference do those arguments make? Should you be able to murder your born children because they are causing hardship or were the result of r.ape? No? Then you shouldn't be able to murder your unborn children for those reasons, either. So the real debate, like you said, is when does abortion become murder.

        January 15, 2014 at 2:11 pm |
        • G to the T

          For me it's the difference between a potential life and an actual life. Indeed it's only relatively recently that the whole "life begins at conception" idea has come about. Most people believed that you weren't a "person" until you breathed your first breath. And even further back, many societies wouldn't even NAME the child until they reached a certain age (as the mortality rate was so high). For all intents and purposes, they weren't a "person" until that event.

          January 15, 2014 at 2:21 pm |
        • It's all about the money....

          They're not called "unborn children". They're just cells. A parasite living off a host. Your conception date and birth date are considered separate for a reason.
          You don't get any rights until your born.

          January 15, 2014 at 2:22 pm |
        • JB

          It's all about the money....

          Your views are extreme. I imagine you are in a small minority on this issue.

          January 15, 2014 at 2:31 pm |
        • Winston

          G to the T

          Why refer to what we used to know, instead of to what we know now?

          January 15, 2014 at 2:39 pm |
      • Ben

        Winston
        Do you believe that you have the right to keep all your organs, even after death, and even if it means that withholding even a spare kidney means that someone will die? If you believe that you have this right then a woman also has the right to control her own body, right?

        January 15, 2014 at 3:15 pm |
        • Winston

          "If you believe that you have this right then a woman also has the right to control her own body, right?"

          Of course a woman has the right to control her own body. But the complication, as I think I've already mentioned, is that during a pregnancy there is another body involved. Until the point that the other body is formed enough to have its own rights the woman can do whatever she wants with hers. After that point, though, it becomes murder, and nobody has that right.

          January 16, 2014 at 1:40 pm |
  5. bostontola

    Murder is immoral, we all agree on that. Is it immoral to kill an abortion doctor?

    January 15, 2014 at 12:47 pm |
    • Topher

      Yes. Immoral.

      January 15, 2014 at 12:51 pm |
      • bostontola

        Always nice when we can find common ground.

        January 15, 2014 at 12:54 pm |
        • Topher

          Yes. Now if only you'd get saved ... 😉

          January 15, 2014 at 1:40 pm |
        • ME II

          @Topher,
          sheesh what an ass hat thing to say.

          January 15, 2014 at 1:59 pm |
        • Alias

          That surprises you coming from Topher?

          January 15, 2014 at 2:23 pm |
    • Alias

      After that we can kill all liars. They are immoral.
      Next we can kill everyone who has sexual thoughts about another person. That is adultery and immoral.
      Killing someone for thoughts will be hard to prove, so we will dress them in cotton blend fabric before we go about bragging, just to be safe.

      January 15, 2014 at 12:54 pm |
      • Dyslexic doG

        and all the people working on a sunday must go!

        and children being rude and disrespectful to their parents!

        and anyone cutting the hair at the sides of their head or clipping off the edges of their beard. We must act against these people now or god will be angry!!!

        January 15, 2014 at 12:59 pm |
      • Madtown

        Better give me a lobster dinner, if that's the case.

        January 15, 2014 at 1:00 pm |
  6. Dyslexic doG

    Women going for an abortion should get a little card to read to the protesters. The woman would say to the protesters:

    "Lo and I prayed to the lord our god and he spoke to me and said in his loud and holy voice, "You may get an abortion my child. I have willed it and let no man interfere lest that man see the fires of hell!""

    January 15, 2014 at 12:39 pm |
    • Alias

      Or maybe if they all smiled and said, "I'm just here for an ultasound. Thank you for caring and I'll look for you at church".
      How long would the protesters stay motivated with no one to demonize?

      January 15, 2014 at 12:44 pm |
    • Doris

      One would think that approach would cause one to stop and think, but Christians are such experts at interpreting their Bible to suit their personal agenda, I don't think it would have much effect. They will either splinter into different sects over stances on such issues, or they will cast individuals out for their misdeeds (where the misdeeds are still present among them – just not out in the open where they would be seen as an embarrassment against their tenets).

      January 15, 2014 at 1:00 pm |
      • fred

        I suspect you believe your judgment of Christians is less demonizing, less judgmental, less hypocritical and just plain better all around.

        January 15, 2014 at 1:11 pm |
        • Doris

          No, I am admittedly very critical. But I am also here merely stating what history has already shown. I have also seen the behavior first-hand in several churches across the years.

          January 15, 2014 at 1:17 pm |
        • Alias

          I think her judgements of christians are very accurate.
          Generally speaking of course. There are exceptions.

          January 15, 2014 at 1:38 pm |
        • fred

          Doris
          Alias
          What you hear and see from the media is that which gets the audience excited. You see the radicals and those who do not follow Christ. The media does not show the good side of Christianity very often (positive news on the current Pope is an exception)

          January 15, 2014 at 3:06 pm |
        • Alias

          I grew up as a christian.
          I am not getting my information from the media as you want to believe.

          January 15, 2014 at 3:17 pm |
        • fred

          Alias
          Well, it seems we have the same human problems with judging, being hypocrites etc. as the general population.

          January 15, 2014 at 4:11 pm |
        • midwest rail

          " What you hear and see from the media ..."
          What I see and read here from Christians does them no favors either.

          January 15, 2014 at 4:14 pm |
    • Damocles

      I like it and that was what I was trying to say in my conversation with Topher.

      January 15, 2014 at 1:06 pm |
    • ME II

      "I have spread the blood of a lamb on my belly, so if it is not the will of God death will pass over this fetus."

      January 15, 2014 at 1:30 pm |
  7. Alias

    @Live4him
    You asked "What do you think causes these 'unexpected' pregnancies?"
    I figured it out. Just like when you said Satan took jesus to the moon, the bible doesn't say Satan isn't taking women to the moon as well. Clearly the forces of hell are letting their allies here on earth impregnate thses women when ther return them in dazed and confused state.
    That could account for a significant number of the unplanned preganancies, and you can't disprove it with your bible.

    January 15, 2014 at 12:36 pm |
    • Live4Him

      Is THIS an example of your civilized discussion that you claimed to have wanted?

      January 15, 2014 at 12:51 pm |
      • Alias

        No. This is why I can't have a civil discussion with you.
        You are willing to make stupid things up to avoid admitting the truth.

        January 15, 2014 at 12:56 pm |
  8. MrMightyHigh

    There they go again. These abortion protesters are attacking the problem from the wrong end, and wasting their time, and diverting attention from the source of a real solution. If they want to stop abortion, they should spend their time and resources studying and promoting the Gospel, and not trying to legislate faith or giving government power over a woman's uterus. Satan cheers their methods.

    January 15, 2014 at 12:14 pm |
    • Dyslexic doG

      why would one study a old cult book written by bronze age and iron age men? What does that have to do with the real world?

      January 15, 2014 at 12:31 pm |
      • MrMightyHigh

        In a nutshell, these protesters are trying to use guilt to change behavior after the fact, instead of reaching out with the message of God's mercy to change behavior going forward.

        January 15, 2014 at 6:17 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      If anyone really wants to end abortion, they should focus their efforts on birth control. It should be easy to obtain, easy to use and effective. Education needs to be included. No one is going to prevent every single unwanted pregnancy, and there will always be instances where abortion is a solution that must be considered. We need to focus on reducing those situations dramatically.

      January 15, 2014 at 12:37 pm |
    • igaftr

      Teach the god spell to solve this issue?

      Lets see...the bible clearly says that if a girl is ra.ped, it is her problem, and all the ra.p.ist need do is pay her father 50 sheckles of silver, and make her an honest woman...still practiced in Morocco, where this leads to many young women killing themselves to get away from their ra.p.ists....great solution, right, since it is biblical, right?

      Then Numbers 5, where you have a wife who gets tested for infidelity, by drinking magic water mixed with dust from the floor, which will abort a child conceived in infidelity...and that works? Of course not, but it is biblical.

      Teaching the bible to work on a real issue, is the largest waste of time you can possibly pursue.

      January 15, 2014 at 12:41 pm |
      • MrMightyHigh

        igaftr, your examples from the Bible are lifted out of historical context and not directly related to the Good News of salvation by grace through faith in Christ delivered centuries later, but are instructions God gave the early Hebrew people as part of His plan for protecting and separating them from the rest of the world, in preparation for the culmination of His Gospel and arrival of Christ in a later time. Your argument is nothing other than proof that man apart from divine grace always seeks to distort God's revelations to suit individual purposes, which is truly Satan's oldest trick in the book.

        January 15, 2014 at 1:24 pm |
        • It's all about the money....

          "Your argument is nothing other than proof that man apart from divine grace always seeks to distort God's revelations to suit individual purposes, which is truly Satan's oldest trick in the book."
          Couldn't one say that about you?
          "instructions God gave the early Hebrew people as part of His plan for protecting and separating them from the rest of the world, in preparation for the culmination of His Gospel and arrival of Christ in a later time." Yeah, except the ACTUAL Hebrew people do not believe Christ has come yet. Yet you do.
          Jews, based on their ancient text, believe Jesus has NOT come. You, based on the SAME text as the Jews, believe Jesus has already come and makes up a great bulk of the new testament.
          Anyone can spin anything to read how they want it. You believe Jesus has come because of the old testament, yet Jews who believe in the old testament believe he has not come. It's all nonsense in the end.
          Fail.

          January 15, 2014 at 1:31 pm |
        • MrMightyHigh

          It's all about the money... you are saying that just because two (or more) groups have differing beliefs about God that they all must be wrong. Your logic is what fails. Scripture tells us that many will follow an easy path that they think to be a true way to reconciliation, but is actually rooted only in the world and leads to alienation and destruction. Look at the fruits of each path and decide which one honors God's glory, and which exalt the status and works of man.

          January 15, 2014 at 2:14 pm |
        • G to the T

          "I... you are saying that just because two (or more) groups have differing beliefs about God that they all must be wrong. "

          Well they can't all be right, so that's out. But it certainly is possible they are all wrong. So it's either one is right and the rest are wrong or they are all wrong. Which is more likely?

          January 15, 2014 at 2:25 pm |
  9. sly

    Case is a no brainer. Public safety is more important than their right to protest.

    12 feet. Sounds fine. Maybe make it 50 feet.

    Americans – we all have opinions, and we have the right to express them. There are limits on free speech – well established through the years.

    Non-story and we know the law will be upheld, even by the senile old fool on the Court that thinks he sees the devil in trees and bushes as he walks around town.

    January 15, 2014 at 12:05 pm |
    • Jeff

      Scalia is nothing if not entertaining.

      January 15, 2014 at 1:05 pm |
  10. Live4Him

    Alias seems to be struggling on this issue, so let me open up the discussion to others. I'm looking for a civilized exchange of rational thoughts on this issue, so if you're only looking to add mockery – don't bother to respond. All others are encouraged to respond.

    1) What are your thoughts on this?
    2) What do you think causes these 'unexpected' pregnancies?
    3) What is the long-term impact of these causes on the women involved?
    4) What do you think is the long-term impact of an abortion?
    5) Do you think that a woman should have a 'choice' after pregnancy occurs when the man currently doesn't?

    <><

    January 15, 2014 at 11:57 am |
    • Jeff

      Alias gave you his answers; you didn't like them, so you call him confused, and a simpleton.
      Grow up. Restating your questions makes you disingenuous.

      January 15, 2014 at 12:03 pm |
    • Observer

      Live4Him,

      Answer for #2:

      R@pe, failed birth control, carelessness, being taken advantage of, etc.

      January 15, 2014 at 12:09 pm |
      • Live4Him

        @Observer : R@pe, failed birth control, carelessness, being taken advantage of, etc.

        I think we can agree here, but I would put the emphasis on the latter two. What are your thoughts on the other issues?

        <><

        January 15, 2014 at 12:12 pm |
        • Observer

          I'm sure a lot of women feel guilty after. There are a lot of women who regret having children, too.

          Planned parenthood can often result in children that get far better lives than those that aborted children might have had if they lived.

          January 15, 2014 at 12:18 pm |
        • Live4Him

          @Observer : There are a lot of women who regret having children, too.

          Why would a woman regret having children? I would posit that these women regret the men who commit predation upon them.

          @Observer : Planned parenthood can often result in children that get far better lives than those that aborted children might have had if they lived.

          Interesting point – However, you've failed to recognize that children who could have been aborted but were adopted instead live lives just as good as those children from 'planned parenthood' relationships. Therefore, wouldn't it seem more reasonable to give these children the same opportunity to a good life as those from 'planned parenthood' relationships?

          <><

          January 15, 2014 at 12:47 pm |
        • Jeff

          Contrary to popular belief, some women should never be mothers, and the level of abuse and neglect that CPS records would tend to bear this out.

          January 15, 2014 at 12:51 pm |
        • igaftr

          L4H
          "Why would a woman regret having children?"

          I can't believe you actually just disregard this as if that never happens. Is the sky blue in your world too?
          There are currently over 7 billion people in the world, and you actually think that all of their mothers were happy to have children...ridiculous.
          I know at least three women that question if having children was the right thing, who knows what their actual internal thoughts are about this.

          Are you seriously that incapable of empathy?

          January 15, 2014 at 12:54 pm |
    • Damocles

      1) My thoughts vary. While it would be great if abortions were no longer needed, I am a realist and understand that a) people are going to make bad descisions and b) bad people exist on this planet. So, since humans are prone to make mistakes and act foolishly then, yes, abortions need to be made available. I'm all for adoption or raising the child, certainly, but I understand that some people don't reach that same conclussion.
      2) The short answer really is se-x. I mean, a woman can go to a clinic to get pregnant, but if she's doing that, I rather doubt she's going to abort.
      3) Again, it will vary. Some will be sad for a time, some will blow it off as no big deal, some will never get rid of the guilt. You can't really use any of that to argue for or against abortion since it will affect each woman differently. No guilt-trips, no making it seem like it's going to be easy. Lay out the facts.
      4) Since I have not studied the impacts, I can't say for sure.
      5) To a degree, yes. This is tricky. If I am a potential father and the woman does not wish to carry her pregnancy to term, what are my options? I can try to talk her into going through with it, but that's really about all I can do. I can not force her, can I? Who's to say what steps she would take in that situation?

      January 15, 2014 at 12:15 pm |
      • Live4Him

        @Damocles : people are going to make bad descisions

        Lets stick with this issue for a moment. What do you think are the probability of a person learning from bad decision if the natural consequences are mitigated?

        @Damocles : I'm all for adoption or raising the child

        There is a back-log of people wanting new-borns, so yes, it would be better if women gave them up for adoption.

        @Damocles : The short answer really is se-x.

        Lots of women engage in such, but don't need or want an abortion. So, this answer doesn't seem to explain the issue properly. I would posit that your first answer (bad decision) is at the heart of the issue.

        @Damocles : Some will be sad for a time, some will blow it off as no big deal, some will never get rid of the guilt.

        Okay, lets discuss this further. Lets assume that someone made a bad decision that cost the life of another person. Why would this person be able to 'blow it off as no big deal'?

        @Damocles : Since I have not studied the impacts, I can't say for sure.

        Actually, you've probably heard of the long term impact on America – as in 'aging population'. So, assuming that someone reaches retirement age in 30 years. Because of the ratio of working to non-working citizens, the government is forced to reduce SS benefits to less than that person needs to survive. What happens then?

        @Damocles : If I am a potential father and the woman does not wish to carry her pregnancy to term, what are my options?

        I was thinking more of the reverse situation. What if the relationship soured so you ended the relationship. Thus you don't want a child to remind you of the relationship. However, she wants to 'hang on' to you and decided to have the child and force you into child support. Now, you're commited to a 20-year+ relationship to her and must fork over +20% of your gross income. So, do you think it is fair that she gets a choice while you don't?

        <><

        January 15, 2014 at 12:35 pm |
      • Damocles

        Heh, ok, we will just talk about what you want to talk about, L4H.

        1) What do you think are the probability of a person learning from bad decision if the natural consequences are mitigated? Well, the natural consequences would be to give birth. From here we have a myriad of possibilities. The child grows up in a loving family and everything is ok. The child is raised in an unloving family and due to friends and outside influences, still grows up ok. The child is raised unloved and does bad things. The child is raised loved and still does bad things. The probabilities are endless. I know, I know, you want the biggest probability to be raised in love, goes on to do awesome things. Hey, I want that too, but as I said, I'm a realist.

        2) There is a back-log of people wanting new-borns, so yes, it would be better if women gave them up for adoption. Yes, *new borns*, what of those that have reached an age past ten and their chances are very small? People being people, many choose to not adopt certain new borns for a variety of reasons. What of them?

        3) Lots of women engage in such, but don't need or want an abortion. So, this answer doesn't seem to explain the issue properly. I would posit that your first answer (bad decision) is at the heart of the issue. Se-x is still the central cause of the pregnancy, yes? False information taught to kids is also a root cause.

        4) Okay, lets discuss this further. Lets assume that someone made a bad decision that cost the life of another person. Why would this person be able to 'blow it off as no big deal'? Going to have to disappoint you here. I don't see a fetus as a person, so that argument doesn't work for me.

        5) Actually, you've probably heard of the long term impact on America – as in 'aging population'. So, assuming that someone reaches retirement age in 30 years. Because of the ratio of working to non-working citizens, the government is forced to reduce SS benefits to less than that person needs to survive. What happens then? And your counter-proposal is to try and overpopulate the earth? Since more than a few people don't work now, I hardly think adding to the potential pool of non-workers is going to solve anything.

        6) I was thinking more of the reverse situation. What if the relationship soured so you ended the relationship. Thus you don't want a child to remind you of the relationship. However, she wants to 'hang on' to you and decided to have the child and force you into child support. Now, you're commited to a 20-year+ relationship to her and must fork over +20% of your gross income. So, do you think it is fair that she gets a choice while you don't?

        Fair? No. Are you arguing that I should try to talk her into an abortion? Knowing you, I know that's not the case, but it can be seen as such. In such an instance I would take her to court and lay the facts out. Then I would have to abide by that descision.

        January 15, 2014 at 1:03 pm |
        • Live4Him

          @Damocles : you want the biggest probability to be raised in love

          Selfish people rarely are good parents. Giving the child up for adoption requires a woman to act unselfishly.

          @Damocles : what of those that have reached an age past ten

          I don't know any woman who has aborted a 10-year old. So this point is moot.

          @Damocles : False information taught to kids is also a root cause.

          What false information? That men who want to use woment to gratify themselves 'love' them? Or that love is all about emotions?

          @Damocles : I don't see a fetus as a person, so that argument doesn't work for me.

          I didn't expect you to. However, I do. Second, you side-stepped the question.

          @Damocles : And your counter-proposal is to try and overpopulate the earth?

          What do you consider 'over-population'? Second, anyone who studied history realizes the large population nations usually control the small population nations. What happens when we're taken over and all our existing rights go out the window?

          @Damocles : Since more than a few people don't work now

          So, why do we have an immigration issue?

          @Damocles : In such an instance I would take her to court and lay the facts out. Then I would have to abide by that descision.

          And the courts have ruled that men in that situation ALWAYS has to pay child support.

          <><

          January 15, 2014 at 1:57 pm |
        • Jeff

          @Damocles : what of those that have reached an age past ten

          "I don’t know any woman who has aborted a 10-year old. So this point is moot."

          You deliberately misrepresented what he said. Why?

          @Damocles : In such an instance I would take her to court and lay the facts out. Then I would have to abide by that descision.

          "And the courts have ruled that men in that situation ALWAYS has to pay child support."

          So you advocate abortion in this instance?

          January 15, 2014 at 2:01 pm |
        • Damocles

          Come on, L4H, sheesh.

          Giving a child up for adoption can be done for wholly selfish reasons. I speak from experience on that one.

          Like Jeff said, I can't understand why you would deliberately misread what I said.... well, I can, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you just didn't understand. Let me put it this way.... let's say, oh, a thousand women decide to put their newborn up for adoption. Let's say, oh, half of them, that's five hundred, are healthy. Now, out of the ones that are born 'unhealthy', birth defects, substance abuse issues, whatever, how many of those do you think are going to be adopted? Now, back to the healthy ones... prospective parents usually, not always I know, but usually, tend to adpot according to their race and whatnot. So, we have many opportunities for kids to grow up past the age where they really have no chance of getting adopted.

          The false information I speak of usually comes from other kids, or parents that for one reason or another are ignorant of the situation. Yes, kids, both male and female, need to be raised with a greater awareness of themselves and the world around them. From what I see daily this is obscenely lacking.

          I didn't side-step the question, you inserted 'person' into it to make it something else. However, in person to person crimes, yes the offender should be punished. Now you can insert whatever fantasy situation you want into that, I don't care.

          There are now over 7 billion people on this planet. Resources are stretched thin as it is. If you, L4H, want to bring more people into this world, whether their mothers are willing or not, I suggest you start working on ways to either have a stable population off planet, or find some other means of dealing with the issues. While this planet may indeed go the route of a world government, I don't necessarily see the signs... yet.

          Who said anything, *anything*, about immigration? Let's stay on topic, shall we? Plenty of good old American citizens don't work and yet you seem to think that every former fetus born into the world will automatically become contributing members of society? Your naivety is scary.

          And I will ask you again, do you propose an abortion in this case? It takes exactly one case to bring about change in a court of law. If a man feels he is being railroaded, he needs to take it to court.

          January 15, 2014 at 5:40 pm |
    • harry & david

      "What do you think is the long-term impact of an abortion?"

      impact for who?

      January 15, 2014 at 12:19 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      Okay, I'll play.

      1) What are your thoughts on this?

      Everyone has the right to protest. That right ends where the rights of other people to safely access legal medical procedures ends. Period.

      This does not address my feelings on those protesters, however. That's a different discussion.

      2) What do you think causes these 'unexpected' pregnancies?

      Lack of, in-efficiency of, and lack of education on use of proper birth control. Also rape, incest, and men being pigs and using a girl's intoxication or other inability to give consent as permission to have sex with her.

      3) What is the long-term impact of these causes on the women involved?

      Well, if they get pregnant, they have all of the health issues and risks associated with pregnancy, followed by a lifetime in which everything she ever wanted put on hold so that she can raise a child, often without the father because all he really wanted was a quickie and in our society it's okay for him to just walk away.

      Of course, there's also the emotional and psychological damage of being rejected by her family, being called names, being berated by inconsiderate protesters when she goes to the clinic for a check up because the clinic also does provide abortion, etc.

      4) What do you think is the long-term impact of an abortion?

      The unwanted pregnancy ends. The woman returns to her life, hopefully a little wiser and a little more educated on the proper use of birth control and in control of choosing when, if ever, she has a child.

      5) Do you think that a woman should have a 'choice' after pregnancy occurs when the man currently doesn't?

      Yes. Period. Until the day a man can take the pregnancy and carry it to term he does not get to make the final decision. he can be a part of the process. But ultimately, that child is the woman's. She has to carry it and care for it. The health risks are hers. A man can promise to be there all he likes, but the truth of the matter is that he can walk away a whole lot easier than the woman can.

      And in the case where he wants to raise the child without her, she is still the one who has to put her life on hold for a year and risk her health and her life to gestate and deliver the baby. Her body. Her choice. Period.

      January 15, 2014 at 12:49 pm |
      • Live4Him

        @myweightinwords : That right ends where the rights of other people to safely access legal medical procedures ends.

        I would agree. However, that standard would be much closer to the 36 feet that is currently in place on this issue. So, it would appear that you're in favor of eliminating that barrier to free speech.

        @myweightinwords : lack of education on use of proper birth control.

        I read an article from an insider (i.e. PP coordinator) that whenever they went into a school to teach about proper use of birth control that they usually (i.e. almost always) saw an uptick in the number of abortions for their local clinics. So, I will reject this point.

        @myweightinwords : Also rape, incest,

        Historically, abortion was permitted for these cases, so this point is moot.

        @myweightinwords : men being pigs

        Agree 80%. On the other side of the coin, women also allow themselves to be treated as sex objects (or as you said sexualized regarding breast). I would posit that this is the other 20%.

        @myweightinwords : Well, if they get pregnant ... followed by a lifetime

        Not if they put the child up for adoption.

        @myweightinwords : often without the father because all he really wanted was a quickie

        Yep, this is one of my pet peeves too. And the woman has to suffer the memory of being used and thrown away.

        @myweightinwords : all he really wanted was a quickie and in our society it's okay for him to just walk away.

        So, why do you think women tolerate this treatment?

        @myweightinwords : being called names, being berated

        Wouldn't you think she is calling herself similar names? (I was a fool for trusting him, How stupid could I be?)

        @myweightinwords : a little more educated on the proper use of birth control

        You seem to think that using birth control is too difficult for many women? I would posit that this is not the real issue. Instead, I would argue that it was because she trusted the man who just wanted to use her. And the feeling of being used doesn't just 'go away'. And when you compound it with an abortion, she finds it difficult to forgive herself.

        @myweightinwords : Until the day a man can take the pregnancy and carry it to term he does not get to make the final decision.

        So, you think that a woman is entitled to 'hang on' to a relationship that a man wants to end? She could do this by carrying the baby to term and then forcing him to pay child support. (i.e. a woman scorned ...)

        <><

        January 15, 2014 at 1:21 pm |
        • Jeff

          @myweightinwords : Until the day a man can take the pregnancy and carry it to term he does not get to make the final decision.

          "So, you think that a woman is enti.tled
          to ‘hang on’ to a relationship that a man wants to end? She could do this by carrying the baby to term and then forcing him to pay child support. (i.e. a woman scorned …)"

          So you think it's fine for the man to force the woman into having an abortion?

          January 15, 2014 at 1:45 pm |
        • myweightinwords

          I'm going to break this up, because I find long posts tedious to others to read (and also because I may have to jump away in the middle).

          I would agree. However, that standard would be much closer to the 36 feet that is currently in place on this issue. So, it would appear that you’re in favor of eliminating that barrier to free speech.

          Personally, I think the proper distance is at least 50 feet and would prefer more, simply because no woman going through that decision should be berated by people, belittled and humiliated. However, because I also support free speech and the right of people to show themselves to be hateful bigots, I'll settle for the 50 feet that would at the very least allow a woman the dignity of walking to the door without fearing being trampled, hit or sprayed with fake blood.

          January 15, 2014 at 1:56 pm |
        • myweightinwords

          I read an article from an insider (i.e. PP coordinator) that whenever they went into a school to teach about proper use of birth control that they usually (i.e. almost always) saw an uptick in the number of abortions for their local clinics. So, I will reject this point.

          How about actual statistics? Collected by an unbiased source (or at least one that clearly lists its bias?)

          The truth of the matter is, when boys and girls are taught the mechanics of sex, coupled with the proper used of birth control and the "romance" of parenthood is demystified, the number of unwanted pregnancies go down.

          It isn't just birth control. That is only one part of the whole. Education must be included.

          January 15, 2014 at 1:59 pm |
        • Live4Him

          @myweightinwords : I'm going to break this up

          Great!

          @myweightinwords : simply because no woman going through that decision should be berated by people, belittled and humiliated.

          Why is this situation any different than other situation?

          @myweightinwords : allow a woman the dignity of walking to the door without fearing being trampled, hit or sprayed with fake blood.

          My take on this is that this is assault and should be treated as such. On the other hand, by keeping any opponent with contrary facts to abortion away from the women limits the facts for her to make a sound decision. Effectively, this places the woman under the control of those advocating an abortion (i.e. boyfriend, parents, abortion supporters, etc.), who will play upon her fears to control her. Why should this woman be controlled by fear and belief that abortion is the only option? Why limit the information that she to which she is exposed?

          <><

          January 15, 2014 at 2:09 pm |
        • myweightinwords

          @myweightinwords : Well, if they get pregnant … followed by a lifetime

          Not if they put the child up for adoption.

          But first they have to carry a child they don't want, deal with the emotional upheaval of pregnancy, deal with possible rejection by family members, risk their health, risk their jobs, put their career or education on hold, etc.

          In a world as over populated as this one is, why? It makes absolutely no sense.

          @myweightinwords : often without the father because all he really wanted was a quickie

          Yep, this is one of my pet peeves too. And the woman has to suffer the memory of being used and thrown away.

          You harp on this an awful lot. You know what? For most women, it isn't that big a thing. The very young (16 -mid twenties) and first time in love girls might have issues with it, but it isn't permanent or lasting. We fall in love, we fall out of love, we have sex, we move on.

          @myweightinwords : all he really wanted was a quickie and in our society it’s okay for him to just walk away.

          So, why do you think women tolerate this treatment?

          Maybe that's all we wanted to. A quick pleasure, a fun time. Maybe we aren't all looking for a life long commitment in the first man we go past first base with.

          Your idea of a woman's psyche is very, very skewed. Do you think we're all these fragile little flowers who can't take the "pressure" of living in the real world?

          January 15, 2014 at 2:09 pm |
        • myweightinwords

          @myweightinwords : being called names, being berated

          Wouldn’t you think she is calling herself similar names? (I was a fool for trusting him, How stupid could I be?)

          Again, with really not understanding a woman's psyche.

          A woman walking into a clinic that provides abortions may or may not be there for an abortion. Even if she is, that decision is between her and her doctor. It is never a decision she comes to lightly. It is likely one of the worst days of her life. She's probably scared. And not just about the procedure. She's probably hurting.

          There may be some thoughts with regard to the man involved, but they will not be her first thoughts. Then she gets to walk through a phalanx of people who know nothing about her or her situation, screaming at her, calling her a slut and a whore and a baby killer and treating her as if she is a monster.

          The last young woman I escorted through that mess was 14, had been left alone with a friend of her father's who took advantage of her (plied her with wine and "seduced her"), had been kicked out of the house because her parents didn't believe her and we had to walk through a group of people screaming at her that she was a murderer and a slut.

          @myweightinwords : a little more educated on the proper use of birth control

          You seem to think that using birth control is too difficult for many women?

          No, it isn't. If they're told how to use it and what the consequences of taking it wrong are. Each method has it's strengths and weaknesses. Each method has issues. Women need to be taught why you have to take the pill at the same time every day. Why antibiotics mean no sex until you've finished the antibiotics and have a couple of days for the pill to start working again in your system.

          Beyond that, men need to be taught to put the condom on. Period. Unless you are actively attempting to have a baby, put the condom on. Not only is it a secondary line of defense against pregnancy, it is the primary line of defense against STDs.

          Men, where the condom. Always. Every time. Until the time is right and you both are ready for children.

          I would posit that this is not the real issue. Instead, I would argue that it was because she trusted the man who just wanted to use her.

          Again with this. Bull crap. Personal responsibility. I am not currently dating anyone, so I am not on birth control. I have no need of it. I guarantee you though, if I were to start dating a man, I would be seeing to my own personal safety by getting on some method of birth control and insisting he didn't come near me without a condom on. Why? Because I know that no method of birth control is 100% effective, and two is always better than one.

          Just like whether or not to keep any baby that happens, the woman decides how and when her body will be used. Any man who doesn't respect that, whether he uses force, alcohol/drugs or coersion is nothing but a rapist.

          And the feeling of being used doesn’t just ‘go away’. And when you compound it with an abortion, she finds it difficult to forgive herself.

          Any woman who feels "used" after having sex has been taught that sex is evil, that it is dirty and should only happen in a marriage....barring emotional issues that have nothing to do with the sex.

          Sex is fun. It's healthy. It's a good time. It's good for you, as long as you're safe. It's people like you that make a woman feel guilty for enjoying it.

          January 15, 2014 at 2:26 pm |
        • G to the T

          "So, it would appear that you're in favor of eliminating that barrier to free speech." Wow – do you always just twist whatever someone says or is this a new hobby for you?

          January 15, 2014 at 2:29 pm |
        • myweightinwords

          Why is this situation any different than other situation?

          No woman should ever be treated the way abortion protesters often treat women. However that goes double for someone who is also in a very vulnerable emotional state.

          @myweightinwords : allow a woman the dignity of walking to the door without fearing being trampled, hit or sprayed with fake blood.

          My take on this is that this is assault and should be treated as such.

          It is assault, and it should be dealt with. More to the point, it shouldn't happen. Period. They should not interfere in any way with people getting into the clinic. Thus, an enforced distance they can not cross.

          On the other hand, by keeping any opponent with contrary facts to abortion away from the women limits the facts for her to make a sound decision.

          By the time the woman is walking into the clinic, she has already made her decision. She has likely already looked at the options and has made a very difficult decision. She doesn't need people adding to the stress of the situation.

          Effectively, this places the woman under the control of those advocating an abortion (i.e. boyfriend, parents, abortion supporters, etc.), who will play upon her fears to control her. Why should this woman be controlled by fear and belief that abortion is the only option? Why limit the information that she to which she is exposed?

          You seem to think that there isn't an internet and hotlines and libraries and gobs and gobs of other information available to a woman in this situation. I highly, HIGHLY doubt any woman anywhere goes into an abortion clinic thinking that abortion is the only solution available. She's just made the decision that it is the right solution for her at that moment in time.

          January 15, 2014 at 2:33 pm |
        • Live4Him

          @myweightinwords : deal with the emotional upheaval of pregnancy

          Do you want them to pretend the pregnancy never happened in the first place? Then how do they learn from their mistakes?

          @myweightinwords : In a world as over populated as this one is

          What makes you think it is over-populated?

          @myweightinwords : You harp on this an awful lot.

          You mentioned it, I agreed and suddenly I'm "harp on this". Strange.

          @myweightinwords : For most women, it isn't that big a thing.

          Out-of-sight, out-of-mind is your preferred method of dealing with it?

          @myweightinwords : We fall in love, we fall out of love, we have sex, we move on.

          Which is another way of saying that our lives don't matter. Well, needless to say, I strongly disagree. I believe in a lifetime commitment to someone who will stay by your side – regardless of your faults or issues that may come up.

          @myweightinwords : Maybe that's all we wanted to. A quick pleasure, a fun time.

          Then, why are more women on the street corner giving it away? I would posit that women do so to have a moment's delusion that they are really loved for who they are.

          @myweightinwords : Do you think we're all these fragile little flowers who can't take the "pressure" of living in the real world?

          Is this what you think abortion, STDs and such is? Just a little "pressure" of living in the real world? They trade a lifelong commitment for this 'reality'. Why would any woman want such pain in lieu of real love?

          <><

          January 15, 2014 at 3:05 pm |
        • myweightinwords

          Do you want them to pretend the pregnancy never happened in the first place? Then how do they learn from their mistakes?

          No, but you know what? We're capable of processing a bad experience, taking the lessons from it and growing from it rather than spending the rest of our lives destroyed over one mistake we made when we were young.

          Do you know when women get destroyed by this? When men make it impossible for women to be equal in all things, when they reduce women to fragile, infantile, emotional time bombs with no control over their own lives.

          What makes you think it is over-populated?

          I have eyes. I have ears. I see people starving to death because we haven't the food (or more accurately the distribution systems) to feed them. I see our natural resources being depleted with no way of ever getting them back. I see houses being built on land that once supported hundreds of species of wildlife, leaving those animals no place to go. I see the abject poverty that is burdening our nation. Open your eyes and look around you.

          January 15, 2014 at 3:52 pm |
        • myweightinwords

          @myweightinwords : You harp on this an awful lot.

          You mentioned it, I agreed and suddenly I'm "harp on this". Strange.

          No. I didn't. You are the one hung up on a woman's fragile emotional state and inability to deal with sex outside of your carefully prescribed scenarios for when it's acceptable.

          @myweightinwords : For most women, it isn't that big a thing.

          Out-of-sight, out-of-mind is your preferred method of dealing with it?

          Is that what I said? Se is a choice that two adult people make. It can be part of a deep emotional commitment if they're both into that kind of thing. It can be part of a casual, fun relationship if both are into that kind of thing. Sure it can be that one is into one kind and the other is into the other or anything in between and that's when disconnects happen.

          But that is part of being a human being and learning to communicate with the person you're in a relationship with...and finding someone who's on the same page you are. It's a job of work being a responsible, grown up adult type person.

          January 15, 2014 at 3:52 pm |
        • myweightinwords

          @myweightinwords : We fall in love, we fall out of love, we have sex, we move on.

          Which is another way of saying that our lives don't matter.

          Nope. Not at all. My life matters significantly. In lots of ways to lots of people. It matters so much that it shouldn't get bogged down by relationships that aren't what I want in my life.

          Well, needless to say, I strongly disagree. I believe in a lifetime commitment to someone who will stay by your side – regardless of your faults or issues that may come up.

          Which is fine for you if that's what you want. It isn't what I want. It hasn't been what I wanted since I was a teenager. I am not a monogamous person. I've known this for a very long time. I am not happy in a relationship of that kind. I'm okay with that.

          You know who is there for me no matter my faults, no matter my issues or the problems that happen? Me. Which means that any relationship I have with anyone is about what we can give each other, not what I need from them or giving (or taking) control.

          January 15, 2014 at 3:53 pm |
        • myweightinwords

          @myweightinwords : Maybe that's all we wanted to. A quick pleasure, a fun time.

          Then, why are more women on the street corner giving it away? I would posit that women do so to have a moment's delusion that they are really loved for who they are.

          You can posit all you want, it doesn't make it true. Women are not a "one size fits all" commodity. Some want true love and life long commitment and sex with just one man (or woman). Some want a lot of friends, including a few you occasionally have sex with when you both want to. Some want to have a series of relationships dependent on the life they're living at the time. Some want even different things. Some want all of these things at different times in their lives.

          Life is complex and messy and beautiful and filled with amazing diversity. Stop trying to pigeon hole it based on some perceived trauma.

          @myweightinwords : Do you think we're all these fragile little flowers who can't take the "pressure" of living in the real world?

          Is this what you think abortion, STDs and such is? Just a little "pressure" of living in the real world? They trade a lifelong commitment for this 'reality'. Why would any woman want such pain in lieu of real love?

          Real love comes first in loving yourself. Any woman who honestly, truly loves herself can manage loving someone else or not loving someone else, being loved or not being loved. Abortion and STDs are facts of life that a woman needs to learn to understand and mitigate in her own life.

          Strong, educated, emotionally mature women may or may not want a lifelong commitment from their partner, but that has nothing to do with whether or not she should feel like she's being used if she chooses to have intercourse with them. Feeling used comes from the treatment of the other partner, whether or not sex is involved.

          January 15, 2014 at 3:53 pm |
      • Jeff

        "Everyone has the right to protest. That right ends where the rights of other people to safely access legal medical procedures ends. Period."

        "I would agree. However, that standard would be much closer to the 36 feet that is currently in place on this issue. So, it would appear that you’re in favor of eliminating that barrier to free speech."

        What, you think these protesters have the right to bar a block people? Or worse , have the right to be in the room interfering with the procedure? What are you saying?? You grow more illogical with every counterpoint.

        January 15, 2014 at 1:27 pm |
    • Which God?

      Still can't figure out how to use the reply button, l4h?

      January 15, 2014 at 12:52 pm |
    • Live4Him

      I will only address responses that do not question me.

      January 15, 2014 at 1:25 pm |
      • Jeff

        You are above being questioned, now??

        January 15, 2014 at 1:29 pm |
      • CommonSensed

        Once again confirming you're a fascist since no one can question you.

        January 15, 2014 at 1:30 pm |
  11. CommonSensed

    Once again putting the fun in fundamental.

    January 15, 2014 at 11:38 am |
  12. doobzz

    I wonder how these people would feel if a group camped out at their church every Sunday morning and accosted them as they go inside, begging them "Save the brain inside you! Save your children's brains!!".

    January 15, 2014 at 11:12 am |
    • Topher

      Ridiculous. And you know it.

      January 15, 2014 at 11:31 am |
      • CommonSensed

        @Topher – how is that different? Once again showing you cannot abide the door swinging both ways.

        January 15, 2014 at 11:36 am |
        • Topher

          Murder is immoral. Going to church is not.

          January 15, 2014 at 11:37 am |
        • Observer

          Topher

          "Murder is immoral."

          Not according to the Bible. God murdered EVERY child, baby and fetus on the face of the earth.

          January 15, 2014 at 11:39 am |
        • CommonSensed

          And forcing your sharia law on women is not immoral?

          January 15, 2014 at 11:41 am |
        • Topher

          Observer

          "Not according to the Bible. God murdered EVERY child, baby and fetus on the face of the earth."

          As Creator He gets to say when EVERY person dies, and that includes you and me.

          January 15, 2014 at 11:44 am |
        • Topher

          CommonSensed

          "And forcing your sharia law on women is not immoral?"

          You've got the wrong religion, dude.

          January 15, 2014 at 11:44 am |
        • CommonSensed

          @Topher – when religious law is forced upon a secular society that is a form of sharia law, dude. Sure sharia law technically is from Islam, but it's the same thing in a different package. Sorry you don't like the marketing term. Would you prefer canon law instead since it sounds less scary?

          January 15, 2014 at 11:55 am |
        • Topher

          Where did I say I wanted religious law enforced?

          January 15, 2014 at 11:56 am |
        • Jeff

          Good. Because abortion has nothing to do with religion, and the Bible doesn't mention abortion.

          January 15, 2014 at 12:05 pm |
        • Topher

          Jeff

          "Good. Because abortion has nothing to do with religion, and the Bible doesn't mention abortion."

          I never mentioned religion. But I could easily make the Christian case. The Bible doesn't need to mention "abortion" when it is clear murder is wrong and all the supportive verses on how much God cares for children and the unborn. But again, I didn't bring it up. Abortion is murder and not only that, it's barbaric.

          January 15, 2014 at 12:10 pm |
        • Jeff

          I should have been clearer.
          Christianity (which, btw, is a religion) has nothing to do with abortion, (and the over 80% of women getting abortions who are Christian seem to agree), and the Bible never mentions abortion (which has been going on since women have been getting pregnant, and one would think if God hated it so much, it would be mentioned.)

          January 15, 2014 at 12:21 pm |
        • Damocles

          @Topher

          If a woman said she prayed and received divine guidance on getting an abortion, would that make it better?

          January 15, 2014 at 12:25 pm |
        • Topher

          Jeff

          "Christianity (which, btw, is a religion) ..."

          Actually, by the strictest definition, it's not.

          "has nothing to do with abortion, (and the over 80% of women getting abortions who are Christian seem to agree),"

          Christians who get abortions are wrong and are just as guilty as those who aren't Christians getting abortions.

          " and the Bible never mentions abortion (which has been going on since women have been getting pregnant, and one would think if God hated it so much, it would be mentioned.)"

          If I tell you "I'm a fan of the major league baseball team in Milwaukee" do I need to include that I'm talking about the Brewers? Of course not. And so when God says murder is wrong, He doesn't need to be specific in all ways you can kill a person. Abortion is murder.

          January 15, 2014 at 12:26 pm |
        • Topher

          Damocles

          "If a woman said she prayed and received divine guidance on getting an abortion, would that make it better?"

          No. First, God would never say it's OK. Second, I'd want to know what kind of "divine guidance" she claims to have gotten. The Canon is closed. Third, I'd have to question whether she's saved if she thinks abortion is OK.

          January 15, 2014 at 12:28 pm |
        • Damocles

          Topher,

          'As Creator He gets to say when EVERY person dies, and that includes you and me.' This is what you said in an above post, correct? Who are you to say how he gets his say, who are you to question what advice she says she received from the deity that you both say you worship? A deity is going to share with you what it says to everyone?

          January 15, 2014 at 12:33 pm |
        • Jeff

          And abortion, in it's strictest definition, isn't murder. Sorry.

          Did you know a miscarriage is termed an aborted pregnancy? In the strictest medical terms, it is. Would you consider a miscarriage an abortion? I would hope not.

          Definitions are tricky.

          January 15, 2014 at 12:36 pm |
        • Topher

          Jeff

          "And abortion, in it's strictest definition, isn't murder. Sorry. "

          So an abortion isn't the willful killing of another human? It absolutely is murder.

          January 15, 2014 at 12:40 pm |
        • Jeff

          No, Topher, since you are a stickler for the strictest definition, it is not.

          January 15, 2014 at 12:55 pm |
        • Topher

          Then what is it?

          January 15, 2014 at 1:42 pm |
        • ME II

          Here's one definition:
          Murder: "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another."

          Abortion, within certain criteria, is not unlawful ergo not murder.

          January 15, 2014 at 1:49 pm |
        • ME II

          ... and a fetus is not another person.

          January 15, 2014 at 1:49 pm |
        • Jeff

          For many women, a life saving procedure. Cessation of a human pregnancy. The human referenced being the one pregnant.
          Which has been upheld by the supreme law of the land.

          January 15, 2014 at 1:55 pm |
        • Topher

          ME II

          "... and a fetus is not another person."

          Why isn't it?

          January 15, 2014 at 1:59 pm |
        • ME II

          @Topher,
          "Why isn't it?"

          I would say because a group of cells that is completely dependent on being inside of a specific person is not itself a person.

          January 15, 2014 at 2:07 pm |
        • ME II

          And that's without going into consciousness, awareness, etc.

          January 15, 2014 at 2:11 pm |
        • sam stone

          "Where did I say I wanted religious law enforced?"

          You say it by denying gays equal marriage rights you feel it will "justify their sin"

          Are you going to deny that, gopher?

          January 15, 2014 at 5:20 pm |
      • Alias

        Actually this was right on topic.
        This case is about free speach.

        January 15, 2014 at 11:36 am |
      • doobzz

        The issue is free speech. It's no different at all, Topher.

        January 15, 2014 at 11:55 am |
        • Topher

          You want to stand outside my church, go ahead. But comparing the two is what is ridiculous. And insulting.

          January 15, 2014 at 12:00 pm |
        • doobzz

          The issue is free speech, Topher. Comparing the two is absolutely valid.

          Christians are often insulted when the law is applied equally to everyone, not just them, as we can see from this, and the ten commandments statue in OK.

          January 15, 2014 at 12:08 pm |
        • Topher

          I AM applying this to everyone. Abortion is murder. It's barbaric and is NEVER OK.

          January 15, 2014 at 12:11 pm |
        • Jeff

          The issue in the stated article is free speech, Topher. Not abortion.

          January 15, 2014 at 12:28 pm |
        • doobzz

          You and the members of the Westboro Baptist Church are certainly entitled to your opinions, Topher.

          January 15, 2014 at 12:29 pm |
        • Topher

          Ha! Nice try at the rabbit trail with a libelous statement.

          January 15, 2014 at 12:41 pm |
        • doobzz

          How so, Topher?

          The Westboro Baptist Church members and the anti choice protesters are exercising their right to free speech, and they worship the same god. The same god who also kills living human children and hates gays.

          January 15, 2014 at 12:50 pm |
        • Topher

          They DO NOT worship the same God. And God does not hate gays.

          January 15, 2014 at 12:56 pm |
        • doobzz

          What book do they all base their beliefs on, Topher?

          January 15, 2014 at 12:57 pm |
        • "Sleepy" Slade Baroni

          Topher

          They DO NOT worship the same God. And God does not hate gays.
          >
          Sorry but they do and read the same "Word of God" you do. You may not like it but that is the reality

          January 15, 2014 at 1:32 pm |
        • ME II

          @Topher
          "They DO NOT worship the same God. And God does not hate gays."

          Just curious, but does that mean there is more than one god, one that they worship and one that the WBC worships?

          January 15, 2014 at 2:19 pm |
        • doobzz

          Looks like Topher ran away again.

          January 15, 2014 at 2:54 pm |
        • Topher

          ME II

          "Just curious, but does that mean there is more than one god, one that they worship and one that the WBC worships?"

          It means they BELIEVE in a different God, but that doesn't mean that God exists.

          January 15, 2014 at 3:42 pm |
        • doobzz

          Why won't you answer my question, Topher?

          What book do they use to base their beliefs on?

          January 15, 2014 at 8:04 pm |
        • CommonSensed

          @Topher – Yet yours does? They have and use the same evidence you use, yet you claim they are wrong and you are right. Wow. Just…wow.

          January 15, 2014 at 4:54 pm |
        • sam stone

          Gopher, libel concerns false statements

          What false statement was made?

          Unless, of course, you want to follow your pattern and change the definition of libel like you have with the definition of murder......

          you are a gopher, a cowardly rodent who runs when he has nothing to fight with

          go home, boy, and get your fvcking shinebox

          January 15, 2014 at 5:25 pm |
        • ME II

          @Topher,
          "It means they BELIEVE in a different God, but that doesn't mean that God exists."

          Good to know that BELIEF does NOT equate to existence.

          January 16, 2014 at 10:38 am |
  13. Alias

    This society really needs to get past the emotional knee jerk reactions and address this topic rationally.
    There are a few people who believe that abortion is wrong in every case. Most people make exceptions for health risks to the mother, and severe health issues with the child. Cases of rape/incest are mostly acceptable reasons for ending a pregnancy. Many people are also perfectly okay withe birth control that does not allow a fertilized egg to implant in the wall of the uterus. Most people think the woman has a right to her own body, and can have an abortion if she decides to in the early stages of pregnancy. I have never heard a valid argument for a late term abortion except for severe medical issues. In short, pro-life people usually make exceptions. Pro-choice people accept limitations. We need to have a civilized discussion to determine when a healthy woman can terminate a healthy pregnancy and what exceptions should be made.
    Personally, I think we have had this discussion and the laws we currently have are reasonable. I'm not an expert in the laws in every state, but there seems to be a balance the vast majority of the population can accept.
    I don't care about the extremists. They will never be happy until they control the actions and thoughts of everyone else.

    January 15, 2014 at 10:57 am |
    • Reality # 2

      And keep in mind the "Brutal Effects of Stupidity". Scroll down the page for added details.

      January 15, 2014 at 11:13 am |
    • Live4Him

      @Alias : We need to have a civilized discussion to determine when a healthy woman can terminate a healthy pregnancy and what exceptions should be made.

      I'll bite.

      1) What are your thoughts on this?
      2) What do you think causes these 'unexpected' pregnancies?
      3) What is the long-term impact of these causes on the women involved?
      4) What do you think is the long-term impact of an abortion?

      January 15, 2014 at 11:15 am |
      • Zombie

        He addressed you when he wrote, "I don’t care about the extremists. They will never be happy until they control the actions and thoughts of everyone else."

        January 15, 2014 at 11:31 am |
      • Alias

        I'll bite back

        1) What are your thoughts on this?
        I'm not making this about me. It is a question of laws governing our society.
        2) What do you think causes these 'unexpected' pregnancies?
        sex causes pregnancy.
        3) What is the long-term impact of these causes on the women involved?
        it will vary. I'm no expert.
        4) What do you think is the long-term impact of an abortion?
        Very similar to the short term impact

        January 15, 2014 at 11:35 am |
        • Live4Him

          @Alias : 1) What are your thoughts on this? I'm not making this about me. It is a question of laws governing our society.

          However, you wanted to render judgment on those laws, so you should have an informed belief to render that judgment. So, I'm not asking for anything more than what you have already indicated that you know.

          @Alias : 2) What do you think causes these 'unexpected' pregnancies? sex causes pregnancy.

          Come on Alias – I didn't ask for the Simpleton's response. So, give me your thoughtful analysis on this. The same is true of your other answers, so I won't bother to respond to them. Again, you indicated that you were willing to engage in a civilized discourse on this issue. Are you still willing?

          Also, let me add one other issue to my list.

          5) Do you think that a woman should have a 'choice' after pregnancy occurs when the man currently doesn't?

          <><

          January 15, 2014 at 11:54 am |
      • harry & david

        "What do you think is the long-term impact of an abortion?"

        what do you mean? long-term for who?

        January 15, 2014 at 11:38 am |
        • Topher

          For the child ...

          January 15, 2014 at 11:48 am |
        • Jeff

          It's not a child until after it's born. Sorry.

          January 15, 2014 at 12:07 pm |
        • Topher

          Ridiculous. It's a human being. And thus killing it is wrong.

          January 15, 2014 at 12:21 pm |
        • Jeff

          Ridiculous. It isn't until it can viably exist on its own outside of the womb.

          January 15, 2014 at 12:30 pm |
        • "Sleepy" Slade Baroni

          If it is human before born then there is no reason why the woman cant choose to seperate herself from it and it can survive on its own outside the womb. It will have the same rights etc on its own.

          January 15, 2014 at 1:35 pm |
      • jessica

        What causes unexpected pregnancies? All kinds of things.

        January 15, 2014 at 11:40 am |
  14. trigtwit palin... America's favorite tard baby

    *drool* (pro abortion poster child)

    January 15, 2014 at 10:51 am |
  15. Reality # 2

    Only for the new members of this blog: Beyond the lines:

    The reality of se-x, abortion, contraception and STD/HIV control: – from an agnostic guy who enjoys intelligent se-x-

    Note: Some words hyphenated to defeat an obvious word filter. ...

    The Brutal Effects of Stupidity:

    : The failures of the widely used birth "control" methods i.e. the Pill (8.7% actual failure rate) and male con-dom (17.4% actual failure rate) have led to the large rate of abortions and S-TDs in the USA. Men and women must either recognize their responsibilities by using the Pill or co-ndoms properly and/or use safer methods in order to reduce the epidemics of abortion and S-TDs.- Failure rate statistics provided by the Gut-tmacher Inst-itute. Unfortunately they do not give the statistics for doubling up i.e. using a combination of the Pill and a condom.

    Added information before making your next move:

    "Se-xually transmitted diseases (STDs) remain a major public health challenge in the United States. While substantial progress has been made in preventing, diagnosing, and treating certain S-TDs in recent years, CDC estimates that approximately 19 million new infections occur each year, almost half of them among young people ages 15 to 24.1 In addition to the physical and psy-ch-ological consequences of S-TDs, these diseases also exact a tremendous economic toll. Direct medical costs as-sociated with STDs in the United States are estimated at up to $14.7 billion annually in 2006 dollars."

    See also: http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/26/opinion/bolan-se-xual-health/index.html?hpt=hp_t4

    And from:

    "Adolescents don’t think or-al se-x is something to worry about (even though is becoming a major cause of throat cancer)," said Bonnie Halpern-Felsher professor of pediatrics at the University of California, San Francisco. "They view it as a way to have intimacy without having 's-ex.'" (Maybe it should be called the Bill Clinton Syndrome !!)

    Obviously, political leaders in both parties, Planned Parenthood, parents, the "stupid part of the USA" and the educational system have failed miserably on many fronts.

    The most effective forms of contraception, ranked by "Perfect use":

    – (Abstinence, 0% failure rate)
    – (Masturbation, mono or mutual, 0% failure rate)

    Followed by:

    One-month injectable and Implant (both at 0.05 percent)
    Vasectomy and IUD (Mirena) (both at 0.1 percent)
    The Pill, Three-month injectable, and the Patch (all at 0.3 percent)
    Tubal sterilization (at 0.5 percent)
    IUD (Copper-T) (0.6 percent)
    Periodic abstinence (Post-ovulation) (1.0 percent)
    Periodic abstinence (Symptothermal) and Male condom (both at 2.0 percent)
    Periodic abstinence (Ovulation method) (3.0 percent)

    Every other method ranks below these, including Withdrawal (4.0), Female condom (5.0), Diaphragm (6.0), Periodic abstinence (calendar) (9.0), the Sponge (9.0-20.0, depending on whether the woman using it has had a child in the past), Cervical cap (9.0-26.0, with the same caveat as the Sponge), and Spermicides (18.0).

    January 15, 2014 at 10:35 am |
  16. I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

    Free speech does not equal jostling, shoving and shouting in people's ears.

    This Massachusetts law seems fair.

    January 15, 2014 at 10:21 am |
  17. Russell

    I love the calm, rational, insightful debates that go on over abortion.
    I'll get some popcorn and be right back.

    January 15, 2014 at 10:10 am |
    • No Comments

      If you click on full story link brings you to OP and no comments ?

      January 15, 2014 at 10:11 am |
      • Russell

        Been there, done that. What is your poiint?
        Or are you just too literal to know good sarcasm when you see it?

        January 15, 2014 at 10:32 am |
  18. Dyslexic doG

    I am sure Scalia will say something wildly improper ...

    January 15, 2014 at 10:10 am |
    • igaftr

      True...he has proven many times that HIS beliefs trump the const!tution.

      January 15, 2014 at 10:50 am |
  19. Dyslexic doG

    no better than the Westboro Baptist Church nuts.

    January 15, 2014 at 10:07 am |
  20. Frank

    There is a problem deeper than abortion that needs to be addressed.

    January 15, 2014 at 9:55 am |
    • Dolphins

      huh?

      January 15, 2014 at 9:58 am |
      • Frank

        It's no secret that without s/x you cannot get pregnant. If all adults having s/x were wise enough to know that one of the "side effects" of having s/x was getting pregnant, why can't they wise enough to avoid getting pregnant?
        The unborn don't have a voice and that is very sad, it is the responsibility of adults to make sure they don't hurt or harm the unborn or better yet ,be 100% sure and take precautions to not get pregnant.
        Ironically, the ones who abort are the ones who are already born.

        January 15, 2014 at 10:25 am |
        • Russell

          The next time a teenage rape victom makes an appointment at that clinic you should be there to explain that argument to her.

          January 15, 2014 at 10:37 am |
        • Observer

          Frank,

          It's no secret that condoms fail, girls get r@ped, mothers' lives can be on the line, and people take foolish chances.

          January 15, 2014 at 10:37 am |
        • Frank

          Are you claiming all babies aborted are the result of r@pe and incest? Don't conflate two separate issues, that need to be dealt with on its own merit. If these abortions are a result of r@pe then there is a wider issue that needs to be addressed. Since 97% of the cases are not, there is no need to conflate two issues that will need to be dealt with separately.

          January 15, 2014 at 6:45 pm |
        • Observer

          Frank

          "Are you claiming all babies aborted are the result of r@pe and incest?"

          Do you have a reading disability?

          January 15, 2014 at 6:46 pm |
        • Frank

          Use your common sense, which obviously you lack, before bringing up r@pe next time, resident troll!

          January 15, 2014 at 6:51 pm |
        • Steve

          The argument about rape being an excuse is a common argument made by tools when it comes to abortion.

          You never see a demand made for the justice of women who are being raped. These idiots constantly bring up rape as an excuse.

          January 15, 2014 at 6:55 pm |
        • Observer

          Frank,

          Please work on your weak reading comprehension skills before you make more FALSE STATEMENTS about what someone said.

          January 15, 2014 at 6:55 pm |
        • Observer

          Steve,

          Speaking of idiots, only an IDIOT would try to MINIMIZE the horrors that r@pe victims go through.

          January 15, 2014 at 7:00 pm |
        • Frank

          Steve-That's right, you don't make rules based one exceptions. Studies reveal that abortions due to r@ape is at most 1% of all the cases.

          January 15, 2014 at 7:02 pm |
        • Frank

          Looks like the troll had nothing else to do all day, what a pathetic troll!

          January 15, 2014 at 7:04 pm |
        • Observer

          Frank,

          No one said r@pes account for a high percentage of abortion situations. The problem is with the THOUGHTLESS people who advocate NO ABORTIONS, which means for EVERYONE.

          January 15, 2014 at 7:07 pm |
    • Cheech

      Even more ironically, the ones complaining the most are the ones who cannot get pregnant after being raped....like guys named Frank.

      January 15, 2014 at 10:46 am |
      • General comment

        I'd compromise, I'd have an unwanted baby if it would mean I could enforce the death penalty for rapists.

        January 15, 2014 at 3:58 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.