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Supreme Court to hear abortion clinic case
The Supreme Court hears a contentious case about abortion clinics on Wednesday.
January 15th, 2014
09:50 AM ET

Supreme Court to hear abortion clinic case

By Bill Mears, CNN

Boston (CNN) - Outside the Planned Parenthood Clinic in Boston on a recent winter day are the regulars - a small, devoted team of anti-abortion activists, handing out fliers and urging patrons to hear their message: "Save that child." "Every life is precious, protect that life within you." "Please change your mind." Several people pray silently nearby.

Clearly marked on the sidewalk, nearly 12 yards from the front doors, is a painted boundary, a line the protesters cannot cross. By state law, their First Amendment rights stop there.

A metaphoric line - testing the competing limits of what has become a constitutional fight between free speech and public safety - will now be surveyed by the nation's highest court.

The justices on Wednesday will step back into the larger national debate on abortion, when it holds oral arguments on a challenge to a Massachusetts law that established tighter buffer zones around facilities that perform the procedure.

FULL STORY
- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Abortion • Courts • Culture wars • Ethics • Women

soundoff (792 Responses)
  1. Cherilyn B

    My mom wanted an abortion but gave in to family/religious pressure and had me. Never let me forget the "favor" she did me. She did abort a few years after I was born. Growing up with that miserable, resentful and neglectful woman made me think the aborted baby was the lucky one. But W T F. I grew up fast and I am having fun now. Very lucky to have beauty and a bod to use to wrap men. Society should think twice. For every abortion that you stop; you get another lil' ol' SOCIOPATH just like me. Or my crazy brother.

    January 15, 2014 at 7:55 pm |
    • Austin

      ◄ Isaiah 1:18 ►

      "Come now, let us settle the matter," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.

      January 15, 2014 at 8:00 pm |
      • Cherilyn B

        No, thanks, Austin honey. I look good in red.

        January 15, 2014 at 8:11 pm |
        • Austin

          I believe you.!!
          I want you to be part of the eternal kingdom . Bear fruit worthy of repentance my friend.

          January 15, 2014 at 8:43 pm |
        • sam stone

          Austin: Your god is a vindictive pr1ck. Why should anyone want to spend eternity with such a punk, not to mention with the likes of you, or gopher, or larry of arabia?

          January 15, 2014 at 10:08 pm |
    • Mopery

      You had me at "My mom...".

      January 15, 2014 at 8:43 pm |
      • Cherilyn B

        I should clarify my position: I am NOT against abortion. I have had two myself. Leave women alone to make the decision that is best for them and it will be a better world. Less populated. Less strain on the environment and resources. Less abused children.

        January 15, 2014 at 9:27 pm |
        • Ken Margo

          TWO!!...............girl you need to be more careful!

          January 16, 2014 at 3:30 pm |
  2. Jodi

    I had this amazing dream last night. An old man was pouring water from a large goblet onto the ground – I had know idea why. And then I woke up, and laid there for a minute wondering what that could be about. I went into the bathroom, and saw the the cat box had been used! That was freaky. Now I have the holy spirit in me!

    January 15, 2014 at 7:46 pm |
    • TDM

      Did you google water and goblet and Bible? I just did, and got the Song of Solomon, 7:2. Hallelujah! You've got the spirit!

      January 15, 2014 at 7:52 pm |
    • Austin

      ya i had a dream i was on the 3rd floor of a brothel. i turned on a water spigot and let it spew out and did not shut it off. i went down to the basement and there were many rooms............and then the water came throught he ceiling and the pim/p kicked me out for the water problem i had 4 other dreams that night they all had water in them.

      so i did a word study on water in the bible and found this verse to match this dream, a proverb

      15Drink water from your own cistern,

      running water from your own well.

      16Should your springs overflow in the streets,

      your streams of water in the public squares?

      17Let them be yours alone,

      never to be shared with strangers.

      18May your fountain be blessed,

      and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth.

      19A loving doe, a graceful deer—

      may her breasts satisfy you always,

      may you ever be intoxicated with her love.

      20Why, my son, be intoxicated with another man’s wife?

      Why embrace the bosom of a wayward woman?\

      then i remember i had prayed about lust and this dream was a proverb

      January 15, 2014 at 8:03 pm |
      • TDM

        You can find something to back up any stupid fleeting thought you have through the Bible, Austin. Since you have ADD, that's not a shock.

        January 15, 2014 at 8:07 pm |
      • Rodents for Romney

        Nope. You WERE in a brothel. Admit it. You're consumed by guilt.

        January 15, 2014 at 10:30 pm |
    • Jodi

      At first I realized that I scooped the cat litter and flushed it. But I'm pretty sure because the spirit was in my dream that it passed to me and didn't get flushed. I think I feel it!

      January 15, 2014 at 8:03 pm |
  3. Ken Margo

    I'm not trying to change Opposition or Austin's mind. I know that won't happen. Fact is abortion WILL NEVER GO AWAY. Even if the supreme court decided to make it a state issue. (That's what scalia wants) There would be legal abortions in at least half the states. Illegal abortions in the the states that won't allow it. RU486 will be another black market drug. If the repubs and crooked christians stopped suing Obamacare, that would make it easier to get birth control for free. Abortions would be a thing of the past. Unfortunately the crooked christian consevatives and their mafia republicans are screwing things up as always.

    January 15, 2014 at 7:45 pm |
    • Austin

      i agree with you . especially about the point about their maffia! i hate militant coorperate Christian who go around with an evil sense of zionism.
      Micah 3
      5 This is what the Lord says:

      “As for the prophets
      who lead my people astray,
      they proclaim ‘peace’
      if they have something to eat,
      but prepare to wage war against anyone
      who refuses to feed them.

      January 15, 2014 at 7:52 pm |
      • Austin

        they are after murderous money. if you go back to the ancient Hebrew civilizations we know they would have babies, and then decide if they would place them alive into the dump or not depending on birth right and gender.

        the world is hurting.

        January 15, 2014 at 7:53 pm |
      • Austin

        by the way, those type of people are lost. they probably arent Christians. Catholics wont even heed the word of God I cant get one who disagrees with me to provide a biblical explanation for the idolatry of graven images and Mary worship, and they lead the argument on abortion, they probably think that this secular country is a "christian country" yet they ignore the basic tenants of Christianity, the go around the 1 mediator and conjure feminine godess which is wikkan.

        January 15, 2014 at 7:57 pm |
        • TDM

          Don't start with your bigotry against Catholics again, Austin.
          You are deliberately throwing out flame bombs now, and people have given you explanation after explanation.

          You have now deliberately lied.
          Just because you don't accept their explanation doesn't mean one wasn't provided for you.

          If you are so add that you cannot stick with the posted topic, take your Ritalin and come back.

          January 15, 2014 at 8:04 pm |
  4. Mopery

    My bet is they won't allow the protesters to get that close. If they did it would set a precedent for protester's rights everywhere, and the 99% would be able to harass Wall Street for robbing us blind. What comes around goes around.

    January 15, 2014 at 7:23 pm |
  5. Doris

    So much screaming about cells and when cells are a child with such ignorance to quality and ability to support the life that is so encouraged on behalf of predominantly Christian countries. The religious stance on contraception by some is just revolting considering what is staring us in the face in the world today between disease and the under-nourished over-populated cities.

    And the side-effect of all this?

    http://www.businessinsider.com/the-most-violent-cities-in-the-world-2013-11?op=1

    January 15, 2014 at 7:17 pm |
    • Austin

      fornication is a sin. man should wait until marriage and TRUST IN GODS PROMISES.

      the percentage of people who are se.xually satisfied is 30 higher for people who did not have se.x outside of marriage, or with multiple partners. ( i heard it on the radio lol)

      if your s.ex life is not that great, you can still be satisfied with the presence of the Holy Spirit. this is what man needs as the center and focal point of satisfaction. if you understand this, you can trust God with your s.ex life.

      again you can rage with lust as we all do and simply say, i trust in your will Lord, and it will pass and you will be fine.

      on the other hand, lust is never fulfilled, nor is your appeti.te.
      the lust of the flesh is death.

      January 15, 2014 at 7:23 pm |
      • Science Works

        Come on Austin you can break spell this guy did !

        Why I Am Not a Catholic and Why I Am a Humanist
        Todd Stiefel

        https://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php/articles/4234

        January 15, 2014 at 7:27 pm |
      • sam stone

        Sin is a man made concept, Austin, and not a concern outside of the religious people who hold those silly ideas. What's the matter, not getting any? Perhaps you should go back to the stripey hole and get yerself a bit of the old jailhouse lovin'

        January 15, 2014 at 7:32 pm |
      • Ken Margo

        Admit it Austin. You're not getting any.

        January 15, 2014 at 7:32 pm |
        • Austin

          ya I walk away from se.xual opportunities as badly as I want to hit it, I don't regret not fornicating, like i do not regret not drinking.

          I have the holy spirit within me and se.xual sin is a serious sin. God will provide His blessing. I turned down a beautiful date last week. i have a pretty sinful track record I am not one to judge, but that does not change the correct goal and promise..

          Had i been obedient I would be married and happy with that woman who I walked away from.

          January 15, 2014 at 7:38 pm |
        • Ken Margo

          Austin....If walking away works for you. Please don't change for me or anyone else. As long as you're happy. Best to ya. Keep in mind THAT IS YOUR CHOICE. You live your life the way you see fit and others will choose the same for them. That is the point you seem to be missing. Life isn't a fairy tale. Unfortunately reality gets in the way. Everyone has to make a decision that's best for them. because they have to live with it. NOT YOU. I don't celebrate abortions. But I respect the choice of the couple to have one. Just make sure YOU'RE living right. Others will worry about heaven when OUR TIME comes.

          January 15, 2014 at 7:54 pm |
        • Austin

          ken abortion is not the issue. heaven is. and setting the issue aside for one moment for physical gratification is dishonoring to your creator.

          ◄ John 1 ►
          New International Version

          The Word Became Flesh

          1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

          Jesus was a man, and tempted by the Devil. He understands what you are going through.

          You should not give ungodly advice. I do not judge your sins. I respect all people, David, Moses, Paul all killers.

          James 3:1 ►

          Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

          January 15, 2014 at 8:07 pm |
        • in reply to the wind-me-up babble quoter

          I believe the OP was about contraception.

          January 15, 2014 at 8:19 pm |
      • sam stone

        Tell us, Austin.....when you punch the clown, are you thinking about Jeebus, all buff and tanned?

        January 15, 2014 at 7:33 pm |
        • Austin

          i tried to get married last year it flopped. I am have no violent tendencies towards clowns.

          January 15, 2014 at 7:40 pm |
        • sam stone

          it flopped?

          perhaps if you had the little blue pills, it would not have

          and she would not have walked away

          seriously, austin....if you believe in heaven, that is wonderful
          but, it should be apparent to you that many of us don't
          and your blathering on is not convincing anyone
          in fact, it is just making you look delusional
          which is not much of a stretch, is it?

          squished any cats lately?

          January 15, 2014 at 10:14 pm |
      • Doris

        Since you feel so strongly about pre-marital se-x, Austin, why don't you run down to inner Caracas or Sao Paulo and work on some prevention there. Let me know how things go when you get back. I doubt you would survive a week there with your unrealistic solutions.

        January 15, 2014 at 7:37 pm |
        • Austin

          doris, what is that supposed to mean? I would like to visit Iran.

          January 15, 2014 at 7:41 pm |
        • TDM

          Now where did she say anything about Iran?

          January 15, 2014 at 7:47 pm |
        • Doris

          Austin, I think the topic was contraception – whether a policy against it is hurting or helping. I think the predominantly-Christian cities of the world tell the story. Did you see the link I posted about the the top 50 most violent cities?

          January 15, 2014 at 7:49 pm |
        • Austin

          no i did not catch any of that. hey Doris, look, I don't have any personal feelings , other than I know how great se,x is and how much i love it.

          But what matters, is receiving that blessings that God promises through obedience. Rebellion is as the sin of witch craft.

          22But Samuel replied:

          “Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices

          as much as in obeying the Lord?

          To obey is better than sacrifice,

          and to heed is better than the fat of rams.

          23For rebellion is like the sin of divination,

          and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.

          Because you have rejected the word of the Lord,

          he has rejected you as king.”

          January 15, 2014 at 8:11 pm |
        • Doris

          Austin: "no i did not catch any of that. "

          Yeah – I shouldn't have expected you to stay on the topic of contraception. Well, thank goodness for separation of church and state that my personal life is not very affected by the beliefs of those who, if given the chance, would have me suffer this life for something they cannot provide evidence for. But when I see the ill-effects of such ridiculous policy on the world (see the link in my OP), I will continue to stand up for reason and call out on that which is unfounded.

          January 15, 2014 at 8:25 pm |
        • sam stone

          What's stopping you from visiting Iran, Austin?

          Think how happy they will be when you go there and witness for jeebus

          January 15, 2014 at 10:15 pm |
      • Rodents for Romney

        I do believe in biblical marriage. That's why I get to screw my wife's slave, and why I also at the same time married my dead brother's wife.

        January 16, 2014 at 2:07 am |
    • bostontola

      Doris,
      Great point. That does make the morality more complex. If a mother doesn't want the child, can't support the child, then that child's life is at high risk. Who knows how it would end up, if it was adopted, that is no guarantee either. Overpopulation degrades the environment and hence all the lives in that area. The morality may be crystal clear in the bible, but the world we live in makes the morality much more complex.

      January 15, 2014 at 7:28 pm |
      • fred

        Morality is only complex for those who do not know God. The absolutes of truth keep things simple enough for even a caveman to understand.
        Complexity increases when God is rejected because suddenly there is no understood authority where two conflicting moralities can be resolved. Man now constructs morality to suit his real or apparent desires. Morality becomes relative to the culture and generally reflects that of man made authority that replaced God. If God was not needed then man would not need to replace God with a man made version.

        January 15, 2014 at 7:42 pm |
        • Doris

          So fred, you claim to know the minds and beliefs of the millions of inhabitants of places like Caracas and Sao Paulo? Stop trying to avoid the real issues with your gawd dun it gibberish.

          January 15, 2014 at 7:52 pm |
        • bostontola

          fred,
          I couldn't agree more. Your religion defines morality in a simple way. I feel more nuance and morality in some cases is more complex. I'm not saying your morality is wrong. You are saying mine is.

          January 15, 2014 at 7:54 pm |
        • fred

          No, I do understand what God had to say in context of Christianity. There is enough need right where I live without going to Caracas and Sao Paulo where I do not understand the culture.
          If you are referring to absolute truth then geographic location is not an issue. The morality of abortion is only geographically dependent when relative morality is the foundation of belief.

          January 15, 2014 at 8:02 pm |
        • fred

          bostontola
          Your morality or my morality cannot be deemed right or wrong if we cannot agree upon a higher authority. My higher authority is God and there cannot be any greater authority. I am not sure what authority you would accept or agree to accept to determine which one of us is moral or immoral. Morality is not the issue. Failure to agree upon a mutually acceptable higher authority is the issue.

          January 15, 2014 at 8:09 pm |
        • Doris

          So fred, can you give evidence of an absolute truth that does not rely on subjective means or consensus that would taint your evidence? You know, evidence of the direct connection between your alleged God and the alleged moral truth that you claim comes from it? Can you manage that without talking yourself into a circle, fred?

          January 15, 2014 at 8:10 pm |
        • fred

          Doris
          Neither believers or non believers have objective verifiable evidence regarding the source of morality.

          January 15, 2014 at 8:24 pm |
        • Austin

          @ Fred
          this was what i was responding to not the article
          "If a mother doesn't want the child, can't support the child, then that child's life is at high risk. Who knows how it would end up, if it was adopted, that is no guarantee either. Overpopulation degrades the environment and hence all the lives in that area. The morality may be crystal clear in the bible, but the world we live in makes the morality much more complex."

          so for you to say i am "way downstream from knowledge and truth about God" I resent that comment.

          January 15, 2014 at 8:32 pm |
        • Austin

          ok i understand now what you meant

          Romans 8:23

          New International Version (NIV)

          23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.

          January 15, 2014 at 8:41 pm |
        • Doris

          fred "Neither believers or non believers have objective verifiable evidence regarding the source of morality."

          That's a good starting point to work from, fred. I would hope that, from that as a given, we can both then view the theistic approach and the non-theistic approach to problems and make use of both without fear or disregard solely because of the source, using history and current information to help guide us.

          January 15, 2014 at 8:44 pm |
        • fred

          Doris
          That presents us with a problem. When you and cannot agree on a point of morality how can we find a higher authority that both of us will accept. I cannot go any higher than God and you cannot go any higher than the things of man. You could attempt to bring down my authority or attack the foundations of that authority in hopes that I accept the things of man. I on the other hand would not be allowed to cite great men of moral integrity that based their integrity upon their love of God or would you be agreeable to that? (assuming I do not Jesus or Abraham but men who's existence you can verify)

          January 15, 2014 at 8:57 pm |
        • Science Works

          fred another slant on Doris's Op – look what is on the rise – go figure .

          Wednesday, Jan 15, 2014 01:50 PM UTC
          We’re living through the “most peaceful era” in human history — with one big exception
          The world at large enjoys unprecedented peace, according to a new study. But religious conflicts are on the rise

          http://www.salon.com/2014/01/15/were_living_through_the_most_peaceful_era_in_human_history_%E2%80%94%C2%A0with_one_big_exception_partner/

          January 15, 2014 at 9:07 pm |
        • Doris

          I think I understand the problem you present, fred. But maybe that is what gets too much in the way of finding real solutions. I'm not against referencing anything as a starting point to solve problems, but to do so and then ignore history and current information is, in my opinion, not at all helpful. Part of this line of discussion switched over to abortion, but my main focus here was that the stance on contraception. I think the current situation that has existed for quite some time now in the predominantly Christian countries shows that a blanket stance against contraception is not realistic and does not work.
          I want to be open to ideas, but someone parroting the usual line about abstinence is, imho, worthless in reality – the reality now and what the reality has been for a long time now in the cities shown in the link I provided in my OP.

          January 15, 2014 at 9:26 pm |
        • sam stone

          And morality is simple for delusional fvcks who claim to know god

          January 15, 2014 at 10:17 pm |
        • fred

          sam stone
          It actually is very simple. Thou shalt not. You add complexity when you turn black and white into shades of gray. I find it amazing that anyone would even debate or fail to understand such a simple concept.
          Even Adam and the serpent understood it. Eve desired what God clearly said do not touch or you will surely die. The serpent whispered to Eve "did God really say that" "you will not "surely" ......

          January 15, 2014 at 10:40 pm |
        • fred

          Doris
          I agree with you that we cannot necessarily use methods that were limited to a certain people, place and time in the Bible. This was the mistake made when some used the slavery rules out of Exodus to wrongly justify the African Slave Trade in the U.S.

          January 15, 2014 at 11:12 pm |
        • sam stone

          fred: not doing something because you were told not to do it by (what you see as) god is no more making a moral choice than a dog not hopping up on the couch because he was yelled at

          January 16, 2014 at 6:01 am |
        • sam stone

          also, fred, talking snakes? really?

          January 16, 2014 at 6:04 am |
        • No Evidence

          @fred "My higher authority is God and there cannot be any greater authority."

          There cannot be a greater authority then your imagination?.

          January 16, 2014 at 8:43 am |
      • Austin

        oh shoot, did you forget that she chos to have s.ex and get pregnant. sin leads to death.

        Get real. you are sick and complacent. you choose to be that way. making all kind of excuses to rationalize murder.

        January 15, 2014 at 7:43 pm |
        • fred

          Austin
          You are way downstream from absolute truth and the knowledge of God. The "she" you refer to may or may not have had choice as far as sin or God is concerned. Mankind and even the vast majority of Churches are very distant from any real knowledge of God and have already provided a substitute. In many cases "she" is making a choice from ignorance regardless if Christian or non Christian. If she truly knew God abortion would be rare. We should recognize her need for help (secular help) first and then once you get to understand the need take the next step. If we are dealing with someone who understands sin then we could address the spiritual need at the same time.

          January 15, 2014 at 7:57 pm |
        • Doris

          Who in the heck are you yammering about, austin? Who is she? Are you a mind-reader now too?
          Regardless, what the world shows us in places that are predominantly Christian, is that indoctrination about abstinence and indoctrination to avoid contraception does not work. Time to move on to something that does work.

          January 15, 2014 at 7:59 pm |
        • Austin

          fred, there is no mainstream when it comes to

          January 15, 2014 at 8:14 pm |
        • Austin

          @ fred
          please dont misunderstand my scorn for the rationalization of abortion. there are complex situations i would not want to get involved in them at all.

          but for permiscuous liscentions lewd behavior, to turn around and have an abortion, this is murder. i am not referring to the complex situations.

          but for you to say that i am downstream from mainstream, i would say that there is not such thing as main stream christianity.

          We have the word of God and you are right , you do not address a persons sin with a person before they are saved other than the general condition of sinfulness. I don't think you can say i am off I dont really ever even get into the issue of abortion is came here with the issue of the total depravity of mankind.

          January 15, 2014 at 8:21 pm |
        • Austin

          i agree with you fred, i still havent read the article i was responding to Bostontola.

          January 15, 2014 at 8:24 pm |
        • Austin

          Austin
          You are way downstream from absolute truth and the knowledge of God.

          Fred, I havent judged you, but you have judged me.

          January 15, 2014 at 8:25 pm |
        • fred

          Austin
          When I said downstream I was speaking of distance away from the original truth (the word of God or presence of God). When you get to a certain point you cannot make a realistic choice.

          January 15, 2014 at 8:32 pm |
        • Austin

          that is true, now i see what you are saying and i understand how you were leading my understanding. You have a good one brother!

          Romans 8:23

          23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.

          January 15, 2014 at 8:41 pm |
        • fred

          Austin
          Here is your comment:" she chos to have s.ex and get pregnant. sin leads to death.
          Get real. you are sick and complacent. you choose to be that way. making all kind of excuses to rationalize murder."

          =>As I said "she" may or may not have capacity to make a reasonable choice because of socio economic conditions that we out of her control. "She" may or may not have "sin" that leads to death otherwise I would be dead.
          =>Now, as to abortion I have great compassion for those who suffer the pain of the decision. If they only knew

          January 15, 2014 at 8:46 pm |
        • No Evidence

          Watching religious nut jobs argue about mythology is entertaining!

          January 16, 2014 at 8:44 am |
      • fred

        Science Works
        I am constantly amazed at how often your "science" links establish the truth contained in the Bible"
        => Matthew 10:34. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword—( i.e.strife, discord, conflict; deadly opposition between eternally hostile principles, penetrating into and rending asunder the dearest ties).

        January 15, 2014 at 9:13 pm |
        • Science Works

          You are slippery fred sort of like a fish – But the biggest cover up/scam (no pun intended) on humanity is the Fig Leaf you know the

          G spot that the fig leaf covered on Adam and Eve.

          January 15, 2014 at 9:21 pm |
        • Science Works

          the G spot is for Eve and it would of been a speck maybe for Adam.

          January 15, 2014 at 9:24 pm |
        • fred

          Science
          Do you have a link to a scientific discovery that will prove there is no purpose for our existence. A simple bubble out of a quantum flux and out came some particles no special intervention needed. Particles + Time = Intelligence without purpose.

          January 16, 2014 at 12:14 am |
        • Science Works

          Ask your talking donkey fred !

          January 16, 2014 at 7:34 am |
        • fred

          Science
          That talking donkey was symbolic of many things. As with all the Bible God speaks to those who will listen and often remains silent to those who cannot listen. Fitting that a donkey corrects Balaam and points out the sin he stubbornly refused to get out of his life. We all have sin in our lives and most stubbornly hold onto it.

          January 16, 2014 at 4:53 pm |
        • Science Work

          Oh fred

          And the fig leaf covering the G spot of EVE created by Adam bone is NOT true .

          January 16, 2014 at 5:30 pm |
        • fred

          Science Works
          I agree with you, as it was about shame and how Adam (mankind) attempts to cover or hide shame. Who said you were naked. Take note in the beginning was the word, our existence was created by the word and deception was from the words of the serpent. The Word of God (the way the truth and the light) goes out and people will accept or reject it. Adam rejected it and tasted the knowledge of good and evil before he was prepared to handle it outside of Gods presence.
          The bone or rib which formed Eve was symbolic of equality or being a part of mankind (adam). Bone of my bones. To bad carbon dating cannot let us know the age of those bones.

          January 16, 2014 at 8:15 pm |
        • Science Works

          Hey fred Sunday School is in session Maybe you will learn something ?

          January 17, 2014 at 7:07 am |
        • Science Works

          Hey fred on that BONE issue you mentioned – here are the truth .

          fred we know where the elements of life came from !

          Phosphorus made in supernovas, study confirms
          Last of 5 heavier elements essential to life to have stellar origin confirmed

          Phosphorus, a key ingredient in your DNA and bones, was originally made in exploding stars, a new study confirms.

          By Emily Chung, CBC News Posted: Dec 12, 2013 4:00 PM ET Last Updated: Dec 13, 2013 11:10 AM ET

          January 17, 2014 at 8:50 am |
        • fred

          Science Works
          Phosphorus made in supernovas does not prove we evolved from dust that is pure scientific speculation. You have as much evidence as I do when I cite the Bible where God created man out of the dust of the earth.
          Now, how do you suppose that oral tradition found its way into the Bible?
          You again point to the truth of the Word of God. Thanks to Science

          January 17, 2014 at 2:02 pm |
        • Science Works

          – but Scalia is like you fred he believes in the red horn-y thingy GO figure.

          January 17, 2014 at 4:24 pm |
        • fred

          Well, I don't think he expressed what the appearance would be. The Bible attempts to explain things so all generations get the picture. You got the picture and it most likely is symbolic of the opposite of goodness and love.

          January 17, 2014 at 8:24 pm |
        • Science Works

          No fred

          The picture is we EVOLVED no Adam and EVE required truth .

          January 18, 2014 at 7:49 am |
        • fred

          Science Works
          Perhaps you could explain to me how the support parts of evolution has any impact on the validity of God as causation for existence of our universe or a belief in existence of our universe without purpose.

          January 18, 2014 at 5:06 pm |
  6. myweightinwords

    Women, I have a solution. How to end abortion forever.

    Let's take the country and divide it into sections. Men on one side, women on the other. Everyone can work, play, live as they see fit. No sex beyond self pleasure and same gender intercourse. When a woman decides she's ready to have a child, she can go to the border, thumb through the catalog, pick a donor and have his semen sent for.

    No fuss, no muss, no unwanted pregnancy. Also? It would eliminate most rape (there could still be incidents of same-gender rape of course, but I'm betting it would be fairly rare...at least on the women's side of the fence) and the need for birth control.

    January 15, 2014 at 6:25 pm |
    • If men could get pregnant...

      Lol. A solution that not too many puritans would care for; who would they bully, then?

      January 15, 2014 at 6:34 pm |
    • Ken Margo

      myweightinwords

      " When a woman decides she's ready to have a child, she can go to the border, thumb through the catalog, pick a donor and have his semen sent for"

      We already have that, it's callled dating web sites.

      January 15, 2014 at 6:35 pm |
      • If men could get pregnant...

        Yeah, but those sites tend to like direct deposits.

        January 15, 2014 at 6:43 pm |
    • Doris

      LOL – oh my I almost spewed an evening latte on my monitor. I think I've read enough of your posts, myweight, to know not to take this too seriously, but is it possible that you've read too many posts by our resident gay Shaker "Douglas" and his ideas are starting to "rub off"?

      January 15, 2014 at 7:01 pm |
      • myweightinwords

        Doris, no, I'm not serious...just pointing out how taking things to the extreme is a ludicrous "solution" for all involved.

        January 16, 2014 at 1:37 am |
    • Cherilyn B

      I prefer Huxley's Brave New World but you get a "thumbs up" for an original proposition.

      January 15, 2014 at 7:36 pm |
  7. bostontola

    When you step back, the abortion issue shines a light on a simple question; What do you value more, the US Const.itutional legal system or your religion?

    The US system has already decided, abortion before a certain point in the pregnancy is NOT murder. Your religion may say it IS murder. Which system has higher priority for you?

    We were born into a secular society that defines our rights and our laws. We agree to to live by them or suffer the consequences in this life. You may think your religion has consequences after this life. Each of us gets to choose.

    January 15, 2014 at 6:22 pm |
    • Austin

      I think that every mother has a soul tie with her baby, unless she is spiritually dead. This moral answer and its truth may be not perceivable to someone who has rejected God.

      January 15, 2014 at 6:37 pm |
      • If men could get pregnant...

        What you think is not relevant to a women's choice.
        I think you are a false prophet that is destined for Hell. Is my opinion relevant to you? No.

        January 15, 2014 at 6:45 pm |
        • Austin

          so are you born again. by the way, I am not a prophet. I have never claimed to be a prophet.

          there are spiritual gifts. do you agree that there are spiritual gifts?

          January 15, 2014 at 6:52 pm |
        • If men could get pregnant...

          This in no way addresses my post, or yours, concerning a decision that zero to do with you.
          Your opinion means nothing to a woman who has to go through an agonizing decision, and my opinion means means nothing to you. Eye on the ball.

          January 15, 2014 at 6:59 pm |
        • Pete

          Again Austin, 20% of the people can do what you are claiming and it has nothing to do with religion or a belief in a god. You are not special but your ego sure is making you want to be, it's time to grow up.

          January 15, 2014 at 7:00 pm |
        • Austin

          you are right, I am just like anyone else.

          but Pete, we are talking about spiritual gifts. do you have the gift of faith? if you start with that, then you can understand the other variety of gifts. but if you do not have the gift of faith, then of course you are in disagreement, because without the gift of faith, you are blind, and spiritually dead.

          I am not talking about normal dreams that do come true. I am talking about supernatural synchronicity of the Spirit.

          For example, i was in the hospital with a friend and he was dying, and I had a dream that an eagle came down and picked up a pair or running shoes. I googled shoes eagle and bible,

          31 but those who hope in the Lord
          will renew their strength.
          They will soar on wings like eagles;
          they will run and not grow weary,
          they will walk and not be faint.

          so i waited till 7 am for his dad to show up bacause I knew this was the Lord telling me that Dan would receive the promise,
          and his dad got off the elevator and came towards me

          I told him about the dream,and started reading the verse, and he said , i just studied that last night because Dan's sister in law sent that same verse out in a bulk e-mail.

          January 15, 2014 at 7:06 pm |
        • Pete

          So what, I had a dream that my friend was in trouble long before they were and I talked about it with their father and guess what, not they are fighting for their life. We tried to stop it but couldn't. That's the point, I too have had my dreams confirmed by mulitple people and it has nothing to do with a god.

          You are not gifted in any way, there are millions of people that have this same experience regardless if they believe in a god or not. It has nothing to do with your religion.

          January 15, 2014 at 7:11 pm |
        • Austin

          pete you are wrong, i did not have a story with 2 elements, mine had 3 elements to it.

          a dream, the dream related to scripture directly, and then the scripture was confirmed by the 3rd party.

          that is the synchronicity of the spirit. and i cant speak for you Pete, as you can not speak for me, but i would suggest that maybe you do not eradicate the possibility that God was trying to illuminate His sovereign presence in your soul.

          spiritual gifts are special. we receive the gift because of God's mercy and love, and not personal merit.

          January 15, 2014 at 7:18 pm |
        • Pete

          Austin again that is not special at all. Before I got relocated to the house I never saw (but dreamt about) a dear friend gave me a book about a state the day after I had my dream about the state I was going to live in, it let me know my dream was going to come true. This has nothing to do with a soul or a god but it's about your brain. I got to go, you're wasting my time. Wow do you have an ego issue.

          January 15, 2014 at 7:24 pm |
        • Austin

          Pete, I had never read the book of Jeremiah and i had a dream that there was a beautifl arch way and there was a huge tile patio and a detached arm reached down into a hole in the ground, that was chizzeled out as a hiding place, and pulled out a leather bag, which opened up as the dust fell off and there were all colors of gem stones in the bag.

          The next day as i was reading further into the book of Jeremiah this is what i read...

          8 In Tahpanhes the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah: 9 “While the Jews are watching, take some large stones with you and bury them in clay in the brick pavement at the entrance to Pharaoh’s palace in Tahpanhes.

          ok.......... i have about 30 examples of supernatural revelations .

          January 15, 2014 at 7:31 pm |
        • Austin

          you are sitting here saying ego when you really just cant accept the idea that God loves His children.. If God spoke within you would that be special Pete?

          January 15, 2014 at 7:33 pm |
        • Pete

          Again Austin this has nothing to do with a god, this has to do with your brain, you are simply talking to yourself. 20$ of people on this planet have the same type of dreams that get confirmed in various ways and become reality – it has NOTHING to do with a god.

          You are not special and you are merely talking with yourself. The more you practice this type of dreaming the better it gets. It has nothing to do with your religion or your god.

          January 16, 2014 at 12:34 pm |
      • bostontola

        Austin,
        Interesting idea, but it is irrelevant to my question. Our system is legal.

        January 15, 2014 at 6:46 pm |
        • Pitiful

          There was a time when slavery was also legal.

          January 15, 2014 at 6:47 pm |
        • bostontola

          That is a fact but not relevant to my point. Right now, abortion is legal. It has been deemed consti.tuitionally legal. That is the highest bar we have. Slavery was legal, it was challenged and now it is consti.tutionally illegal.

          January 15, 2014 at 6:52 pm |
        • Pitiful

          Legality and morality are not the same thing, so long as morality is relative you will continue to hear from opposing view points. At what point do you question the law?

          January 15, 2014 at 6:56 pm |
        • Austin

          legality is not the highest bar that we have.

          What i find as difficult is knowing which battle to pick, but obviously as a Christian, i have to let the world go and not entangle myself with such affairs.

          God has turned his back on sin and given us the new promise, the better covenant, and upon receiving the Holy Spirit, who convicts the world of sin , then that is what can change someones point of view from the mind of the natural man or moron.

          January 15, 2014 at 7:00 pm |
        • bostontola

          That is my point, morality and legal are different. We live by laws. They are questioned all the time. Political pressure gets them changed, not easy but doable. If the new law is unconsti.tutional, you must change the consti.tution, way harder.

          January 15, 2014 at 7:00 pm |
        • If men could get pregnant...

          And you don't get to decide morality, either, Pitiful; especially when it comes to religion and laws.

          January 15, 2014 at 7:01 pm |
        • Austin

          ya I hear ya we as Christians are not supposed to expect the world to comply with our standards without the reception of the Holy Spirit. However we should still do our best to install justice based upon God's standards. how to do that wihout being like a blaring gong is up in the air.

          on the other hand, if it really is murder,then we should go beyond the law and attack those inst.itutions and go to jail. but i don't think they really care enough to put their money where their mouth is. or at least constantly warn them.

          7 “Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the people of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me. 8 When I say to the wicked, ‘You wicked person, you will surely die,’ and you do not speak out to dissuade them from their ways, that wicked person will die for[a] their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood. 9 But if you do warn the wicked person to turn from their ways and they do not do so, they will die for their sin, though you yourself will be saved.

          January 15, 2014 at 7:14 pm |
        • Pete

          "However we should still do our best to install justice based upon God's standards."

          LOL! Your religion has been around for thousands of years and because of it's oppresive nature this country deliberately separated religion from state. The problem is religious people like you have blinders on to the truth about your cult.

          January 15, 2014 at 7:17 pm |
        • Austin

          ◄ John 8:34 ►

          Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.

          Romans 6:22
          22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

          the only real freedom is eternal life, as opposed to eternal separation from absolutely everyone and God forever

          January 15, 2014 at 7:27 pm |
    • Pitiful

      There in lies what is truly pitiful about atheism. You think because a government says so that it is okay, whatever it may be. No thinking outside the box, or that the government may be wrong. I can understand not believing in God, so be it, but what about believing in Nature, or believing in mercy?

      January 15, 2014 at 6:46 pm |
      • bostontola

        I said nothing about right or wrong, read the OP again. What part of the US system don't you understand? We can make any laws we want unless they violate the Consti.tution. If your religious law is in conflict with the Consti.tution then you must try to change the Consti.tution. That is hard to do.

        January 15, 2014 at 6:56 pm |
  8. Austin

    You can't make a claim it's your god when the fact is gods have nothing to do with it.

    Pete, I can make a claim that i knew it was spiritual to begin with, and then I can say it is from God as the word of God was illuminated supernaturally.

    Here is the sad truth about humans.

    Sin permeates every person in every way.
    Mind
    Emotion
    Will
    Mans will is in bondage
    John 1:9-11
    9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him
    2 Corinthians 4:3

    3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing..
    1 Corinthians 2:14

    Natural Man=MORON spiritual ignorance
    14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    John 3:3 spiritual blindness

    3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

    spiritual inmity / HATRED
    John 3:19-20

    New King James Version (NKJV)

    19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
    Romans 3:12

    New King James Version (NKJV)

    12 They have all turned aside;
    They have together become unprofitable;
    There is none who does good, no, not one.

    John 3:36

    36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

    John 5:21 SPIRITUALLY DEAD

    21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.

    Ephesians 2:1

    2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

    Colossians 2:12-13

    New King James Version (NKJV)

    12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircu.mcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

    January 15, 2014 at 5:49 pm |
    • Damocles

      So basically, you can make up anything in your mind and then find justification for it. Creepy.

      January 15, 2014 at 5:52 pm |
      • Austin

        no you are not supposed to . the basis for the beginning of wisdom and understanding,he mind of Christ and the fear of God are the only moral basis for understanding that is justifiable .

        Secular religion is bad.

        January 15, 2014 at 5:55 pm |
        • Damocles

          To quote from one of the best books ever written... 'fear is the mind-killer, it is the Little Death that brings total oblivion...'. Humans have lived with far too many tyrants that ruled through fear and now you want to offer up a self-made tyrant as an object of worship.

          January 15, 2014 at 6:01 pm |
        • Austin

          since we are talking about souls and the spirit, we should leave these decisions to people who are well informed on such issues.

          Jesus Christ was from the line of Tamar, who was impregnated through incest of some sort. such a baby would have been discarded in the dump. but from this lesson of grace and mercy we learn that God is bigger than human situations. Give peace a chance.

          January 15, 2014 at 6:05 pm |
        • Austin

          Upon recognizing his security deposit, Judah released Tamar from her sentence and accordingly she was able to give birth to twins, Perez and Zerah. Perez is said to be the ancestor of King David

          January 15, 2014 at 6:07 pm |
        • No Evidence

          Austin, your quotes from your book of mythology are just as meaningless as any other quote from any other book of mytholgy.

          January 16, 2014 at 11:06 am |
    • Observer

      This story is all about ABORTION and the Bible NEVER mentions it.

      January 15, 2014 at 5:59 pm |
      • Austin

        every civilization has history of discarding babies. the story of Tamar though would give credence to hope and providence in the least expected areas. This should put a huge value on every life.

        January 15, 2014 at 6:10 pm |
        • Observer

          Yep. Not one word about abortion although God may have come up with a drink that caused it.

          January 15, 2014 at 6:18 pm |
        • Ken Margo

          You sound like a republican. A phony republican. Republicans are against:
          Healthcare
          Extending unemployment benefits
          SNAP
          Pell grants
          Obama's job programs

          All things that would help people. What a group of clowns.

          January 15, 2014 at 6:24 pm |
        • Austin

          8Then Judah said to Onan, “Sleep with your brother’s wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to raise up offspring for your brother.” 9But Onan knew that the child would not be his; so whenever he slept with his brother’s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother. 10What he did was wicked in the Lord’s sight; so the Lord put him to death also.

          i think it is clear what God expects of s.ex, and family.

          January 15, 2014 at 6:26 pm |
        • Observer

          Yep. Typical solution for God: if I don't like it, I just KILL them.

          January 15, 2014 at 6:30 pm |
        • Ken Margo

          And how do you know what god wants? Are you going by the bible. The book of fiction. Let's see Comic books, harry potter and the bible. What do they have in common? Fiction.

          January 15, 2014 at 6:31 pm |
        • Austin

          Ken Margo

          the old tastament was a shadow of things to come.
          Colossians 2:17 ►

          These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

          In other words, the prophetic nature of the Bible is on obvious truth. Therefore your opinion is what is not a fact of life.

          January 15, 2014 at 6:40 pm |
        • Austin

          John 16:8 (NEB) "When he [the Holy Spirit] comes, he will convict the world, and show where right and wrong and judgment lie. He will convict them of wrong..."

          The first work of the Holy Spirit is the conviction of sin. If we are temples of the Spirit, His presence, His name in us will convict us, and others, of sin. We will feel more affinity towards those who, like us, long for more conviction, repentance, and the power of God to live a life that will stand the test of fire.

          When Holiness Comes In Contact With Unholy Men

          Mat 10:34 (NAS) "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

          Whenever Jesus showed up, He brought division among men. He brought inner peace to a few, but outward hostility among people who were getting along fine until He showed up. Christ's Spirit is the great polarizer, wedge driver, sword. If this same Spirit lives in us, we should expect that we too will illuminate what eternal side people are on.

          January 15, 2014 at 6:42 pm |
        • If men could get pregnant...

          Take care of your own spiritual life, Austin. And leave others to theirs.

          Walls of texts make not one iota of difference to the woman contemplating an abortion.

          January 15, 2014 at 6:49 pm |
        • Ben

          Austin
          "Christ's Spirit is the great polarizer, wedge driver, sword."

          Sounds like an argument for getting rid of Christianity if it has such a negative, divisive affect upon society.

          January 16, 2014 at 10:20 am |
    • Pete

      Wow do you have a serious ego problem. Dude you are not even posting in the original thread, you are copy and pasting this in a totally unrelated topic hoping it won't get noticed, but again I had a dream you would so I looked and low and behold you did.

      People all over the world have dreams that come true that don't believe in a god or your god, which proves it has nothing to do with religion and all to do with your brain. If I meditate, I can get the exact same feeling you describe as spiritual, then if I allow myself to go into a "dream state" I too can make my dreams become reality and I have. It has nothing to do with a god.

      January 15, 2014 at 6:47 pm |
    • Pete

      Oh, by the way you are not special 20% of people on this planet regardless of their statures in life or their religious beliefs can do exactly what you are describing, it has nothing to do with a god but everything to do with your brain.

      January 15, 2014 at 6:55 pm |
  9. Tom, Tom, the Other One

    A compromise should be possible: Keep abortion legal, safe, and make it free of social stigma. In return we will make contraception freely available along with proper education in women's health.

    January 15, 2014 at 4:58 pm |
    • Russ

      @ TTTOO: such a "compromise" fails to actually understand your opponents' position.

      the pro-life movement regards abortion as murder – thereby the 55+ million abortions in the US since Roe v. Wade represent an astonishingly huge & ongoing moral atrocity. you don't have to agree to understand that – as such – "compromises" are not an acceptable position. it is rather like asking a Jewish person to accept an ongoing form of the Holocaust.

      again, you don't have to agree to understand the position – a necessary prerequisite to advance any real dialogue (and yes, that's a two-way street).

      January 15, 2014 at 5:11 pm |
      • Tom, Tom, the Other One

        My "compromise" offers a way to make what you understand as murder less common, Russ. I regard abortion as an invasive medical procedure, undesirable if it can be avoided.

        January 15, 2014 at 5:20 pm |
        • Russ

          @ TTTOO: i hear you saying it would make abortion less common. aside from that fact that Roe v. Wade appears to have done *anything but* that, follow the analogy of the Holocaust. what faithful Jew would agree to a lesser form of the Holocaust?

          again, you don't have to agree with the position to see why such a "compromise" is instead regarded as a betrayal not just to "the position" in the debate, but to all those who would die under said "compromise."

          January 15, 2014 at 5:25 pm |
        • Tom, Tom, the Other One

          It is sad that some people regard an aborted fetus as the equivalent of an exterminated Jew, Russ. Why do you believe that human beings at a stage of development in which they can't be aware that they are alive ought to be protected?

          January 15, 2014 at 5:34 pm |
        • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

          No one conjectured that legalization will make anything less common – just safer.

          It is contraception (education and availability) that can make abortion rates drop.

          No one should be able to coerce a woman to endure an unwanted pregnancy.

          January 15, 2014 at 5:38 pm |
        • If men could get pregnant...

          ...I doubt this conversation would be going on.
          It is not up to you to force you version of morality onto people. That's why we have laws to prohibit that.
          It remains, ultimately, up to the person who is pregnant.

          January 15, 2014 at 5:40 pm |
        • Russ

          @ TTTOO: that's an honest enough question – and it goes right to the heart of the difference.

          who defines life? the answer to that question decides all the major points of debate: when it begins, on what basis it has intrinsic value, what is the appropriate action to take regarding life, etc.

          for the secular pragmatist, your arguments make sense. for the theist (even more so for the Christian), your arguments falsely assume humanity self-determines the answer to that question. that's one of (if not *the*) the major divide(s) in the debate.

          for example, the biblical Christian believes God's Word defines life in relationship to God – which raises key points of concern:
          a) God and God alone has the right to give and take life.
          b) human life uniquely reflects God (we were made in his image) – making it the MOST valuable resource on the planet
          c) life begins at conception and is a gift

          and consider the opposite, TTTOO. why is the Holocaust such a tragedy? the theist must answer to God's standard, while the atheist has no such basis for objection. along those lines, consider this recent article from the Scientific American, which claims there is no inherently greater definition of life in a rock than in a human:
          http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/brainwaves/2013/12/02/why-life-does-not-really-exist/
          he even goes so far as to say "life does not really exist." what objection can be made to the Holocaust on such a basis?

          or consider Peter Singer of Princeton. he has famously argued that life has no value apart from what an individual can contribute to society. as such, he thinks infants & elderly are less valuable (if not readily terminated when undesirable). Hitler's Holocaust readily fed off such pragmatic views applied to a particular race.

          by contrast, a theist recognizes God-given value to life which is unassailable by pragmatic arguments (you are making teleological arguments in a deontological system). as such, for Christians, when human authority goes against what God has commanded, "we must obey God, not men" (Acts 5:29).

          January 15, 2014 at 6:01 pm |
        • Russ

          @ if men...
          your repeated argument is: only women have a right to speak to this debate.
          1) you are begging the question
          2) you are forgetting that basically HALF of all abortions violate the rights of unborn women. (think about that: that's roughly 28+ million women missing from America today.) your argument is contingent on that group not speaking due to *coerced* silence.

          January 15, 2014 at 6:05 pm |
        • If men could get pregnant...

          I say the truth: if women didn't want abortions, abortions wouldn't exist.
          I get you are against abortion. Fine. I hope you never get one.

          Who do you think are the majority of the ones who pay/drive the women to get abortions? Men.

          I don't care if every man in the world stood up against abortion; men cannot GET pregnant, so they will NEVER experience the agonizing choice women have to face with an untenable situation.

          You don't have to approve. You don't get the right to prevent, however.

          January 15, 2014 at 6:14 pm |
        • Ken Margo

          @russ..............How do you know the fetus would have been a woman?

          January 15, 2014 at 6:15 pm |
        • Ken Margo

          @russ...Where's the money? I don't see you offering any funds for these children you care so deeply about. Kids aren't free for anybody. How about this. Lower my taxes, Raise your taxes and YOU pay for these kids. I've said this before and I've yet to get a response.

          January 15, 2014 at 6:19 pm |
        • Russ

          @ if men...
          you're not dealing with the central objection (namely, that life has intrinsic value). you are making an argument which – if applied to another situation – becomes untenable. for example: Hitler basically said: "you're not German. stay out of our business." by your rationale, we should not intervene in genocide.

          January 15, 2014 at 6:33 pm |
        • Opposition

          Ken Margo

          @russ...Where's the money? I don't see you offering any funds for these children you care so deeply about. Kids aren't free for anybody. How about this. Lower my taxes, Raise your taxes and YOU pay for these kids. I've said this before and I've yet to get a response.

          Ken, cut spending on weaponry, cut congress salaries, cut presidential salaries, support local farming, public school is already paid for and there are plenty of clothes to go around. Look up US food waste also there is enough food just no one can get to it.

          January 15, 2014 at 6:36 pm |
        • If men could get pregnant...

          Evoking Godwin's law negates much. Absurd analogy, Russ.

          You don't get to decide when life begins; you have your belief, and the women who contemplate abortion have theirs. You don't get to choose FOR them, because you are not the one in the situation.

          January 15, 2014 at 6:42 pm |
        • Ken Margo

          @opposition.............Those cuts aren't enough, then what? Kids don't get cheaper. What guarantees do you have that repubs wont cut the programs the kids need? The repubs want to cut SNAP, Healthcare, Medicare, Medicaid, social security , pell grants etc. and give tax breaks to millionaires and billionaires. In other words "screw poor people" The best way to cut childrens costs is not to have any!

          January 15, 2014 at 6:47 pm |
        • Russ

          @ Ken Margo:
          1) as i said above, *basically* half would be women – because there's only two options (with exceedingly rare exceptions).

          2) you keep invoking money *as if* money was more valuable than life. i wonder if you would say the same to Oskar Schindler.

          January 15, 2014 at 9:05 pm |
        • Russ

          @ if men...
          Godwin's law speaks to the *inappropriate use* of a Nazi analogy.

          1) the conversation was about understanding your opponents' position. pro-life advocates regard abortion as murder – making it THE primary atrocity of our era. consider: the statistics internationally are (from memory) roughly 43 million abortions annually. *IF* one simply allows the possibility for the sake of discussion, what would you deem an appropriate analogy for 43 million murders each year?

          2) i could just as easily have cited Rwanda. don't dodge the point because Nazis were invoked. it's the out of hand reference to tangible evil in our time. your appeal to Godwin's law here is an attempt to divert from the fact that pro-life advocates see this issue as mass murder. will you engage the substance of your opponents' view or not?

          January 15, 2014 at 9:12 pm |
        • Ken Margo

          Quoting Russ

          " you keep invoking money *as if* money was more valuable than life."

          No but it is pretty dam.n close. Kids got to eat, have clothes, shelter, education etc. etc. None of thoe things are free.
          Like I wrote earlier, put your money where your mouth is. You want to play daddy, then you got to pay like daddy.

          January 15, 2014 at 10:39 pm |
        • Russ

          @ Ken Margo:
          1) so you consider life as not much more valuable than money. on what basis?

          2) i don't have to "play daddy" (as you say) to state that murder should be stopped. i'm making a qualitative, deontological argument & you are responding with a quanti.tative, pragmatic one.

          3) you make a lot of assumptions about how people spend their money. sounds like self-projection.

          January 15, 2014 at 10:59 pm |
        • Alias

          @Russ
          You should learn something about history before tryint to use examples from hitler.
          The holocaust was actually about money. The original plan was to deport the jews, but with a 2 front war that wan't feasable – so he decided to put the jews into the gas chanbers he made for the insane, gypsies, and retarded people instead.

          January 15, 2014 at 11:15 pm |
        • Russ

          @ Alias: are you really trying even remotely to justify Hitler's "final solution"? i think you are the one who might want to revisit those historical studies.

          again, the point of the thread here was actually engaging the pro-life argument on its advocates' terms. despite how distasteful pro-choice advocates find the Holocaust analogy, objecting to it as 'too extreme' fails to engage the central claim of the pro-life argument. we believe this is murder. quantifiably, that's 56+ million and counting since 1973 in the US alone. the Holocaust is estimated at around 6 million. you don't have to agree with the pro-life position to understand that even simply from a numeric perspective, abortion represents a much greater atrocity.

          so, you can disagree with the premise (that living human beings are being murdered), but discounting the factual numbers and resulting analogy is a fundamental failure to hear your opponents' self-articulation, much less actually engage those beliefs.

          January 15, 2014 at 11:32 pm |
      • Science Works

        It is not cheap does not include college !

        But a few thru college.

        money.cnn.com/2013/08/14/pf/cost-children/‎
        Aug 14, 2013 – From child care to the monthly grocery bill, the cost of raising ... for a middle-income couple to raise a child born last year for 18 years, ..... An added benefit of disposables are kids in diapers till they are four or five years old.

        January 15, 2014 at 7:13 pm |
        • Science Works

          *Put*

          January 15, 2014 at 7:14 pm |
    • Opposition

      Tom, Tom, the Other One

      "It is sad that some people regard an aborted fetus as the equivalent of an exterminated Jew, Russ. Why do you believe that human beings at a stage of development in which they can't be aware that they are alive ought to be protected?"

      Ok here is my issue, I worry that the person being aborted can feel pain. I worry that we humans think it is okay to decide who lives and who dies when someone has not committed a crime. When I think of a developing fetus I think of the ultimate in innocence. I think of the one that we should all collectively line up to protect, and the fact that we do not makes me angry with my own species.

      That being said, in general I am not conservative or religious so please form an argument for my concerns.

      For what it's worth I do not like the idea government making medical decisions for people.

      January 15, 2014 at 5:43 pm |
      • Tom, Tom, the Other One

        It should be, ultimately, up to the person who is pregnant.

        January 15, 2014 at 5:46 pm |
        • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

          Agreed. No one should coerce a woman to endure an unwanted pregnancy.

          January 15, 2014 at 5:49 pm |
        • Opposition

          I appreciate that you are giving voice to that woman. Who is giving a voice to the baby?

          January 15, 2014 at 5:56 pm |
        • Ken Margo

          @opposition...................Give voice to the baby? You don't even know the s3x of the child! First of all IT'S NOT A BABY! It's a fetus. Second, since you want these kids to be born, Where's the money to take care of them? I don't see your phony azz putting up any funds.

          January 15, 2014 at 6:09 pm |
        • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

          What baby?

          The fetus is not sentient. It is not self sustaining. Even at 20 weeks premies cannot survive without massive artificial intervention. Without a willing host a fetus cannot survive for most of the pregnancy.

          Abortion is nasty and messy. Personally I don't think it's very nice but I'm not a woman and will never have to face this decision. I am not a supporter of late-term abortion.

          The doctrinal objection that Catholics use for abortion is the notion of potential life. This is why they have to extrapolate to their ban of contraception to keep the doctrine pure. It's a purely semantic theological argument. They play on the emotions of "baby-killing", but in the first trimester there is no baby. In the second trimester it is ambiguous. In the third trimester abortion is not an option I endorse, unless the life of the mother is truly endangered.

          So, no one is giving a voice to the fetus. It is subservient to the needs of the conscious, sentient mother.

          January 15, 2014 at 6:09 pm |
        • Ken Margo

          @Gop.................By the 3rd term, she wants to have the child. Abortions that occur usually happen because either the mother's life is in danger or the child is not viable. There are those that want to eliminate a woman's choice even under those circ.umstances.

          January 15, 2014 at 6:14 pm |
        • Opposition

          January 15, 2014 at 5:56 pm | Report abuse |

          Ken Margo

          @opposition...................Give voice to the baby? You don't even know the s3x of the child! First of all IT'S NOT A BABY! It's a fetus. Second, since you want these kids to be born, Where's the money to take care of them? I don't see your phony azz putting up any funds.

          Ken, stop with the personal attacks first of all. Second, It isn't a rock, or a potato so yes the word baby would be appropriate. A fetus is not a mineral. Also Society is capable of finding ways to take care of everyone, but that is another argument. A person need not have a gender to feel pain or be sentient. Once he or she is alive he or she can make the decision if he or she wants to exist.

          January 15, 2014 at 6:21 pm |
        • Opposition

          "So, no one is giving a voice to the fetus. It is subservient to the needs of the conscious, sentient mother."

          Are you sure he or she (the unborn) is not aware? And why should the weak and defenseless be subservient to the strong? Does might make right in your eyes?

          January 15, 2014 at 6:22 pm |
        • Opposition

          Ken, a mother's life being in danger I would say would be an okay time to consider abortion. For cases of forced attack I can't say I like the idea of abortion but I am on the fence with it, I can't say I like government involvement. I wish there were other options. I can't think of any.

          January 15, 2014 at 6:24 pm |
        • If men could get pregnant...

          Why do you think you have a say in what a woman you do not know, and whose life you will never impact, does, Opposition?
          You don't. Period.

          January 15, 2014 at 6:32 pm |
        • Opposition

          If men could get pregnant. I may not have a choice in what she does, but I have a voice and if I were the fetus I'd want someone to use theirs on my behalf.

          January 15, 2014 at 6:39 pm |
        • If men could get pregnant...

          Opposition, if the fetus had a voice, it would be born already, and there wouldn't be a need fir abortion.

          It's very easy to be a voice for something in a situation you will never experience for yourself. Armchair quarterbacking, as it were.

          Which means exactly nothing in the long run, does it?

          January 15, 2014 at 6:54 pm |
        • Ken Margo

          @Opposition..................Call it what it is. A FETUS. You cannot age the child to fit your argument. Based on your argument. a child mol.ester can call a child an adult. You're still a phony no matter how you slice it.

          January 15, 2014 at 7:00 pm |
        • No Evidence

          Next they'll be calling a fertilized egg a "child"

          January 16, 2014 at 11:18 am |
      • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

        Are you also a vegetarian?

        Do cattle feel pain when they are slaughtered for meat?

        January 15, 2014 at 5:47 pm |
        • Opposition

          Yes, vegan. There is also pus in milk and blood from them being stuck to a machine.

          January 15, 2014 at 5:56 pm |
        • No Evidence

          ...antibiotics, hormones, etc...

          January 16, 2014 at 2:14 pm |
  10. CommonSensed

    Simply and best put: If you can't trust me with a choice – how can you trust me with a child?

    January 15, 2014 at 4:52 pm |
    • Reality # 2

      Choice? Make the right one before intercourse. Scroll down to the section on the "Brutal Effects of Stupidity".

      January 15, 2014 at 4:56 pm |
  11. Colin

    "Please change your mind." Several people pray silently nearby" the article says.

    That says it all. Roe v. Wade was decided in 1973. Since then, literally millions of Christians have prayed every day that abortion be banned. Let's do some math. Even if only one million Christians (1 out of every 200-300 Americans over the years) this is 365 million X 40 prayers. This is about 14 billion prayers.

    14 BILLION PRAYERS totally ignored. Either, God

    (i) loves killing unborn babies
    (ii) doesn't give a sh.it about praying Christians; or
    (iii) does not exist.

    Which is it, do you think?

    January 15, 2014 at 4:50 pm |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      God, if it exists, is indifferent to prayer and to the fate of humans at all stages of development.

      January 15, 2014 at 4:54 pm |
    • Russ

      @ Colin: by your logic, God the Father loved killing his Son – whose prayer also notably went unanswered in the Garden of Gethsemane.

      point being: your options are nowhere near exhaustive. your argument would be stronger if the Christianity you mock was at least recognizable to Christians – even more so if it was not merely a straw man.

      January 15, 2014 at 5:02 pm |
      • Colin

        Great, give me another option.

        January 15, 2014 at 9:03 pm |
    • James K

      Telling people that they're praying is just a not too subtle reminder that God supposedly disapproves of what they're doing, and is being made aware of it. The protestors are just hoping to trigger the fear response to this threat.

      January 15, 2014 at 5:09 pm |
    • soccer1life

      well Colin God has His own standard of time very different from ours 2 peter 3:8. so even though he has not answered the prayers for abortion to be banished does not mean he wont .

      January 15, 2014 at 9:11 pm |
      • Ken

        If God answers all prayers with either
        a) Yes, immediately
        b) Yes, some time in the future, or
        c) No
        People can be waiting for a (b) answer all their lives, not knowing that it was actually a No, right?

        Besides, if I ask my toaster for help with something you'd pray about wouldn't what I want either happen naturally right away, later on, or never as well? I'll get the exact same results, so what's the actual good of praying?

        January 16, 2014 at 10:15 am |
  12. Lawrence of Arabia

    Abortion is not about a woman’s rights over her own body. Obviously, in a legal sense a woman has the right to do with her body whatever she wishes, however:

    1)What exists in the womb of a woman in the form of an unborn child is not the woman’s body.
    2)No one has the right to use their body to kill another human being in cold blood.

    In order to support those two premises, you must first realize that the unborn child is a human being from conception. This is easily seen using simple comparisons. Any characteristic or description of the unborn child can only fit into one of four categories:

    1)Size
    2)Level of Development
    3)Environment
    4)Degree of Dependency

    Take any one of these, and use them to parallel an unborn child with a born child to see the point.
    For instance: a baby in the womb is smaller than a 3 year old child, but the 3 year old child is smaller than me. Does that make the 3 year old less human than me? Obviously, not. Well, a baby in the womb may not be fully developed, but a 3 year old is not as developed as I am. Does that make the 3 year old less human than me? Obviously not. What about environment? The baby is in the womb. Yes, separated from the outside world by a matter of inches. I was at home a few hours ago, 22 miles from work, where I am now. Am I somehow less human when I am at work than when I am at home? Lastly, degree of dependency. That baby is 100% dependent on the mother for its existence. Yes, that’s true, but my father is 100% dependent on the heart stints that exist in his body to survive. Is he less human than I am just because I don’t depend on them? No. Therefore – the baby is human, and no one, not even the mother, has a RIGHT to kill that child in her womb.

    January 15, 2014 at 4:08 pm |
    • Lawrence of Arabia

      Sorry, that was meant to be a reply...

      January 15, 2014 at 4:08 pm |
    • When men can get pregnant...

      Men will have a say what women do with their bodies.

      January 15, 2014 at 4:11 pm |
      • Lawrence of Arabia

        But abortion has nothing to do with women's bodies...

        January 15, 2014 at 4:12 pm |
        • When men can get pregnant...

          It has everything to do with women's bodies. You can't be this dumb.

          January 15, 2014 at 4:14 pm |
        • Lawrence of Arabia

          I'm not being dumb. I just got through showing you that what exists in the mother's body is NOT the mother. Didn't you read that?

          January 15, 2014 at 4:16 pm |
        • Ben

          That's funny, how do you see fetuses growing without the use of a woman's body? For all intents and purposes a fetus is a foreign parasite to a woman's body, and millions are naturally aborted every year due to a woman's own body rejecting them. This is what happens most of the time when we say that a pregnancy "doesn't take".

          January 15, 2014 at 4:19 pm |
        • RB

          Good Ben, kind of like the difference between death by natural causes and murder.

          January 15, 2014 at 4:23 pm |
        • Lawrence of Arabia

          Ben,
          I know... But the statement was intended to speak against the willful murder of the unborn without absolute medical necessity to save the mother's life.

          January 15, 2014 at 4:23 pm |
        • When men can get pregnant...

          No, you didn't. What you did is show the reasons you think a woman shouldn't have an abortion.
          When that woman can physically give you her pregnancy over so you can finish gestation you may have a point.

          January 15, 2014 at 4:26 pm |
        • Alias

          @LoA
          You cannot mix the moral arguments with the legal ones on this issue.
          The legal argument is that the mother has the right to protect/preserve her body. This right outweighs the rights of the fetus.

          January 15, 2014 at 4:26 pm |
        • Lawrence of Arabia

          Alias,
          I respect the rights of the mother... I had quoted below where I had heard a great summation of the issue, I forget where the quote comes from:

          "No action should be legally permissible if its intent is to take the life of an innocent human being. Therefore, in recognition of the biological reality that human life begins at the moment of fertilization, the unborn child is ent.itled to the protection of the law under all circu.mstances and at every stage of pregnancy. In those rare instances in which the pregnancy poses an immediate and life threatening risk to the mother, she should be allowed to direct her physician to perform any medical procedure that is necessary to save her life, provided that in that effort, the physician must always do whatever is possible to save the lives of both the mother and the baby. If, as an unintended consequence of saving the mother’s life, her unborn child loses its life, that should be viewed as a profoundly, deeply sad, and regrettable, but lawful outcome."

          January 15, 2014 at 4:29 pm |
        • Billy

          "I'm not being dumb. I just got through showing you"

          Larry – I know you don't intend to be dumb, but man, your arguments made me burst out laughing.

          "What exists in the womb of a woman in the form of an unborn child is not the woman’s body."

          If you believe in the trinity, Larry, then this shouldn't be a difficult thing for you to understand. Until and unborn child is disconnect from the mother, it is two things – an unborn child (or something at an earlier stage) and it is part of the mother's body.

          January 15, 2014 at 4:31 pm |
        • Ben

          Lawrence of Arabia
          But, like I said before, every pregnancy is a risk to the mother's life. The maternal mortality rate for the U.S. was 24 per 100,000 pregnancies in 2008. That may sound low to you, but you're not being forced to take that risk, are you?

          January 15, 2014 at 4:58 pm |
        • Ben

          RB
          Is it murder in every case when someone is taken off of life support, or are they simply allowed to die of natural causes?

          Someone's hanging off a cliff. Are you a "murderer" if you don't attempt a rescue that you feel would endanger your life? Pregnancy is risky, isn't it?

          January 15, 2014 at 5:06 pm |
        • Observer

          Lawrence of Arabia,

          "If, as an unintended consequence of saving the mother’s life, her unborn child loses its life, that should be viewed as a profoundly, deeply sad, and regrettable, but lawful outcome."

          Get real. It is an ABORTION. The doctors KNOW the fetus won't survive. The flowery words to avoid REALITY are a joke. It is an ABORTION to save the mother's life.

          January 15, 2014 at 5:52 pm |
        • Ben

          Observer
          "Get real. It is an ABORTION. The doctors KNOW the fetus won't survive. The flowery words to avoid REALITY are a joke. It is an ABORTION to save the mother's life."

          Even if a fetus has a right to live, does it have a right to live at the expense of someone else? Do you have that same right?

          January 15, 2014 at 6:14 pm |
        • Observer

          Ben,

          A fetus is not the same as a person. In the bad situation where a choice has to be made between the two, it's sadly very easy.

          January 15, 2014 at 7:25 pm |
        • Ben

          Observer
          For argument's sake, I was saying even if, showing that even if legislation were to pass stating that a fetus is a person equal to anyone else, they still wouldn't have the right to use anyone's body for life support against their will,correct?

          January 16, 2014 at 10:07 am |
      • Hope this helps

        So you are for public nudity and prosti.tution? If not how dare you tell a women what they can and can't do with their bodies.

        Hope that helps.

        January 15, 2014 at 4:15 pm |
        • Lawrence of Arabia

          I don't think Evil Kneivil could make THAT leap...

          January 15, 2014 at 4:17 pm |
        • Hope this helps

          Exactly.

          January 15, 2014 at 4:18 pm |
      • Reality # 2

        To expand on this theme (only for the new members of this blog):

        The reality of se-x, abortion, contraception and STD/HIV control: – from an agnostic guy who enjoys intelligent se-x-

        Note: Some words hyphenated to defeat an obvious word filter. ...

        The Brutal Effects of Stupidity:

        : The failures of the widely used birth "control" methods i.e. the Pill (8.7% actual failure rate) and male con-dom (17.4% actual failure rate) have led to the large rate of abortions and S-TDs in the USA. Men and women must either recognize their responsibilities by using the Pill or co-ndoms properly and/or use safer methods in order to reduce the epidemics of abortion and S-TDs.- Failure rate statistics provided by the Gut-tmacher Inst-itute. Unfortunately they do not give the statistics for doubling up i.e. using a combination of the Pill and a condom.

        Added information before making your next move:

        "Se-xually transmitted diseases (STDs) remain a major public health challenge in the United States. While substantial progress has been made in preventing, diagnosing, and treating certain S-TDs in recent years, CDC estimates that approximately 19 million new infections occur each year, almost half of them among young people ages 15 to 24.1 In addition to the physical and psy-ch-ological consequences of S-TDs, these diseases also exact a tremendous economic toll. Direct medical costs as-sociated with STDs in the United States are estimated at up to $14.7 billion annually in 2006 dollars."

        See also: http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/26/opinion/bolan-se-xual-health/index.html?hpt=hp_t4

        And from:

        "Adolescents don’t think or-al se-x is something to worry about (even though is becoming a major cause of throat cancer)," said Bonnie Halpern-Felsher professor of pediatrics at the University of California, San Francisco. "They view it as a way to have intimacy without having 's-ex.'" (Maybe it should be called the Bill Clinton Syndrome !!)

        Obviously, political leaders in both parties, Planned Parenthood, parents, the "stupid part of the USA" and the educational system have failed miserably on many fronts.

        The most effective forms of contraception, ranked by "Perfect use":

        – (Abstinence, 0% failure rate)
        – (Masturbation, mono or mutual, 0% failure rate)

        Followed by:

        One-month injectable and Implant (both at 0.05 percent)
        Vasectomy and IUD (Mirena) (both at 0.1 percent)
        The Pill, Three-month injectable, and the Patch (all at 0.3 percent)
        Tubal sterilization (at 0.5 percent)
        IUD (Copper-T) (0.6 percent)
        Periodic abstinence (Post-ovulation) (1.0 percent)
        Periodic abstinence (Symptothermal) and Male condom (both at 2.0 percent)
        Periodic abstinence (Ovulation method) (3.0 percent)

        Every other method ranks below these, including Withdrawal (4.0), Female condom (5.0), Diaphragm (6.0), Periodic abstinence (calendar) (9.0), the Sponge (9.0-20.0, depending on whether the woman using it has had a child in the past), Cervical cap (9.0-26.0, with the same caveat as the Sponge), and Spermicides (18.0).

        January 15, 2014 at 4:53 pm |
        • Petra

          Celibacy is not the answer. I doubt you have ever enjoyed sex, let alone intelligently.

          January 15, 2014 at 5:07 pm |
        • Reality # 2

          Petra, Petra, Petra,

          Au Contraire !!! The safe se-x life is great !!

          January 15, 2014 at 11:54 pm |
      • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

        A uterus is not a purse.

        January 15, 2014 at 5:39 pm |
    • Valley Girl from the East

      Interesting points...I've never considered it from that perspective....although I would like to say the four "categories" you mentioned, pretty much can apply to most mammals, not just humans.
      However your idea that a fetus is separate from a woman's body and that woman has no right to kill that fetus inside her because it's a separate living thing is truly something I've never thought about before. Very good point!

      January 15, 2014 at 4:24 pm |
      • myweightinwords

        Really? So is a tapeworm. It's a living being inside another being's body.

        Does that mean I have no right to remove it from my body?

        January 15, 2014 at 5:45 pm |
    • Ben

      Lawrence
      "1)What exists in the womb of a woman in the form of an unborn child is not the woman’s body."
      But the womb is the woman's body, and she has the right to remove things from it, right?

      What you're arguing is like saying that your intestines are part of your body, but you don't have a right to get rid of something in them, like a tape worm, for example.

      January 15, 2014 at 4:27 pm |
      • Lawrence of Arabia

        Yeah, but a tape worm isn't a human being.

        January 15, 2014 at 4:30 pm |
        • Ben

          And, legally, neither is a fetus. Even if it were reversed, and fetuses became recognized as human beings under the law, what would give it the right to use someone else's body for life support? Can you demand that someone else has to keep you alive with their bodies? Think about it, nobody can force you to give up your organs, your blood, or anything else of your body to keep somebody else alive, so why should a fetus have more rights than you do?

          January 15, 2014 at 4:51 pm |
        • Cpt. Obvious

          Correct. The state should not demand that you share your blood, tissue, and organs with any being who requires them to live. Tapeworm or fetus.

          January 15, 2014 at 4:55 pm |
      • Valley Girl from the East

        @Ben
        "But the womb is the woman's body, and she has the right to remove things from it, right?
        What you're arguing is like saying that your intestines are part of your body, but you don't have a right to get rid of something in them, like a tape worm, for example."
        Hate to say it (I'm pro choice) but the woman contributed to putting the fetus in her body, even if involuntarily. It's not the fetus' fault.
        And the fetus is a separate growing thing inside the woman that will eventually leave. A tape worm's sole purpose is to get inside and suck all the nutrients out from the host it can, forever if possible. A fetus' status is temporary inside the woman and the woman helped to create it.
        I think a woman should have the right to abortion, but I don't want to know her if she decides to.

        January 15, 2014 at 4:32 pm |
        • Ben

          Valley Girl from the East
          Not every woman willingly becomes pregnant, and even birth control can be seen as an unwillingness to become pregnant.

          January 15, 2014 at 4:44 pm |
    • Irrational Exuberance

      I think your argument makes a flaw in point 2.

      A 3-year old is not just more developed than a 10 week embryo. It posses something the embryo does not. It is not that it is human while the latter is not. The 3-year old is a being, the embryo is not. Development matters not because one has more than the other, but the development has changed what is there.

      You eat a plant and incorporate it's atoms into you. If I cut you to remove the the same amount of matter as the salad you ate am I only removing a salad? Of course not, because there has been a fundamental transformation, yet that transformation was only a process of development changing matter from one form to another. But the result of that transformation is very important.

      When we discuss a human being it is not just a discussion of a thing being human, all of our cells are human, but not all of my cells are human beings. It is the state of existing as a being which changes my 186 pound of human cells into a human being. Without that consciousness I am not a human being, I am only matter which can be identified as human.

      January 15, 2014 at 4:29 pm |
    • igaftr

      Interesting argument but has a couple of flaws...first, you presume that the child has rights from conception...this is the key point of contention, and while I agree that it is a human life, separate from the mother, others have different definitions, so to base an argument from a viewpoint that is not agreed upon is moot. Yes in this case IF everyone agreed on when the child actually is a child, you may be right, but since that defintion is not set in stone, neither is your argument.

      Second is even if the child is considered alive, when is it considered a citizen...many would argue that the child does not have any legal rights until it is born, since location at birth is one of the citizenship factors.
      Then last, Do you have the right to legislate on someone elses body.
      Do I have the right to tell you for instance that you cannot use hand sanitizer, because you are murdering billions of life forms when you wash?

      While I agree with you that it is a human from conception, and I agree , if that is true , then abortion is murder, by definition, but I do have an issue with attempting to legislate opinions and then you have the nightmare of attempting to legislate.
      There are countries where ALL abortions are murder, and you end up with cases of miscarriage that end up with the woman in prison, because they can't prove their innocence..we certainly do not want to try to ban all abortions, but we also do not want to have abortion as a means of birth control, especially for the vast majority of abortions that are just errors in judgement or timing and were preventable in the first place.

      This is a very slippery slope, and there will need to be compromise...and it is likely to continue to be a moving target.

      For my part, I will not suggest an abortion to women I know if I am ever asked, offering the alternatives instead, but by the same token, it is such a deeply personal issue, legislation has proven to be less than effective, and legislating on a function like this, that is purely contained to one given woman at a time, and each woman and circu.mstances are different, I would also try not to judge too harshly.

      Odd that such a touchy topic, that your gods book is strangely silent. (except for that silly abortion/fidelity drink from numbers 5...one of the silliest things in the bible)

      January 15, 2014 at 4:34 pm |
      • Ben

        Does anyone have the right to force you to keep them alive?

        January 15, 2014 at 6:08 pm |
  13. Sunflower

    anti-abortion activists, handing out fliers at clinics....would have been nice, if they were handing checks too!!

    January 15, 2014 at 4:00 pm |
    • Petra

      Or caring enough about said fetus to offer support/living quarters to the mother during gestation, paying for all related costs, and adopting the child after its born. What do you think the chances of that happening is? And this is assuming these conditions are feasible in the first place...

      January 15, 2014 at 5:02 pm |
  14. RB

    Most women getting abortions (83%) are unmarried; 67% have never married, and 16% are separated, divorced, or widowed.4 Married women are significantly less likely than unmarried women to resolve unintended pregnancies through abortion.6
    http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/women_who.html

    January 15, 2014 at 3:55 pm |
    • Pete

      So ... you're saying that Pro Life is all about targeting unmarried women?

      That would make sense.

      January 15, 2014 at 4:02 pm |
    • Alias

      83% unmarried
      16% are separated, divorced, or widowed
      The other 1% are significantly less likely than unmarried women to resolve unintended pregnancies through abortion.

      This makes me think the compiler of numnbers has an agenda

      January 15, 2014 at 4:02 pm |
      • Hope this helps

        83% unmarried
        16% are separated, divorced, or widowed
        The other 1% are significantly

        You do understand that the 16% is a subset of the 83% right?

        January 15, 2014 at 4:17 pm |
        • Alias

          It was the way it is being presented

          January 15, 2014 at 4:23 pm |
    • bostontola

      Two thirds of the women who get abortions in the US are Christian.

      January 15, 2014 at 4:06 pm |
      • RB

        The majority of Americans (73–80%) identify themselves as Christians.

        January 15, 2014 at 4:15 pm |
        • bostontola

          True. Two thirds of abortions are by Christian women.

          January 15, 2014 at 4:18 pm |
  15. RB

    Scientists say life begins at conception.

    January 15, 2014 at 3:21 pm |
    • It's all about the money....

      life is not the same thing as a human being.

      Lost of things are "living" but not human. Just because "life beings at conception" does not mean a human being is in there. It's a cluster of cells that grow into a fetus, that act as a parasite on the host until they grow too big. The day the water breaks and the fetus is removed from the woman, that is the day that thing becomes human.

      January 15, 2014 at 3:29 pm |
      • RB

        For some reason, you are picking a point in development when you think, he or she, should be called a person. You can “what if” it to death, but if something bad doesn’t happen, it will be very similar to you one day.

        January 15, 2014 at 3:36 pm |
    • K-switch

      A scientist would say a spe rm or an ova are living cells.

      January 15, 2014 at 3:40 pm |
      • Russ

        @ K-switch: unlike sperm or an egg, new DNA is formed at conception.

        January 15, 2014 at 3:51 pm |
      • RB

        Biologically, from the moment of conception this new human being is not a part of the mother's body. Since when does a mother's body have male genitals, two brains, four kidneys? The preborn human being may be dependent upon the mother for nutrition, however, this does not diminish his or her humanity, but proves it. Moreover, dependence upon a parent for survival is not a capital crime.
        At the average time when a woman is aware that she is pregnant (the fifth to sixth week after conception), the preborn human being living inside her is metabolizing nutrition, excreting waste, moving, sucking his or her thumb, growing, and doing many other things that non-living things just do not do. As early as 21 days after conception, the baby's heart has begun to beat his or her own unique blood-type, often different than the mother's. (Moore & Persaud, The Developing Human, p.310; Nilsson & Hamberger, A Child is Born, p.86; Rugh & Shettles, From Conception to Birth, p.217.) At 40 days after conception, brain waves can be read on an EEG, or an electroencephalogram. (Dr. H. Hamlin, Life or Death by EEG, JAMA, Oct.12, 1964, p.113.)
        Medical science already refers to a spontaneous heart rhythm and the presence of brain waves to determine whether someone is alive at the other spectrum of human existence. In simplistic terms, if an organ donor is in an automobile accident and is on life support in a hospital, the physician cannot "pull the plug" and donate the patient's organs to others unless the patient is "brain dead" and his heart is not beating on its own. If the medical community maintained consistency with this generally-accepted medical definition of human life, then we would condemn every abortion after the time when the average woman discovers she is pregnant. Every abortion, by the generally-accepted standards of medical science, aborts an innocent human life.
        http://prolifephysicians.org/lifebegins.htm

        January 15, 2014 at 3:54 pm |
        • Valley Girl from the East

          Didn't the Christian God let his only son die? He let him be born, even though he knew he would be sacrificed in a painful way?
          Don't we all wish Hitler's mother had aborted him?
          And it's creepy the way you make it sound like every pregnancy is wonderfully precisely made? Aren't there genetic defects and down-syndrome kids and all this other stuff? My best friend was a twin and her twin was born inside out, with his internal organs on the outside of his body. He died within 1 minute of being born. So much can and does go wrong...and what about the quality of life for all these unwanted babies laws are forcing to be born? What happens after the baby is born?
          Or does the book on anti-abortion end after the defenseless baby is born?

          January 15, 2014 at 4:01 pm |
        • RB

          Valley Girl from the East,

          I’ll admit to being anti-abortion. What happens after a child is born is a legitimate concern. I’m truly politically independent, but at the time I liked what Clinton said, safe, legal, and rare. Instead, we have a safe legal murderous form of birth control. Just goes to show how correct God is on this subject, don’t commit one sin and you won’t have to commit another to fix the first.

          January 15, 2014 at 4:08 pm |
        • When men can get pregnant...

          Men will have a say what women do with their bodies.

          January 15, 2014 at 4:13 pm |
        • Ben

          RB
          Parasites like tape worms are not part of people's bodies either, but nobody would argue that you don't have the right to have one removed, right? Your argument that a fetus is not part of the mother's body fails then. A fetus requires a human host, just like a tape worm. Surely you have the right not to be a tape worm's host.

          January 15, 2014 at 4:32 pm |
        • igaftr

          RB
          You are comparing a human fetus to a parasite. Since parasites by definition are alien to the host, your analogy fails. A fetus is NOT an alien life invading a host. It is natural reproduction.

          Analogy fail.

          January 15, 2014 at 4:40 pm |
        • igaftr

          sorry, that was for Ben

          January 15, 2014 at 4:41 pm |
        • Ben

          igaftr
          Well, it's at least half alien, biologically speaking. Cancerous tissue shares some of your DNA also, right? If it were a "natural reproduction" it would have to be an axe dual type of reproduction. The natural mode for human reproduction is the introduction of foreign DNA into a woman's body, so your argument is the one that fails.

          January 15, 2014 at 5:16 pm |
        • igaftr

          Wrong again ben. Comparing reproduction to a parasite is just incorect. Then comparing it to disease like cancer, again flawed...Not the same thing at all. You are comparing a block of wood to a summer day and saying they are the same.

          My argument does not fail, because there is no argument. You have presented flawed information, I was correcting you.

          You should really study what a parasite is, what disease is, and what reproduction are. Or haven't you gotten that far in school yet?

          January 16, 2014 at 3:04 pm |
  16. Brother Maynard

    Do fetus's have souls? If so where do they go if aborted ?

    January 15, 2014 at 3:12 pm |
    • Madtown

      "To hell, if they haven't accepted Christ as their personal savior".

      – yours,
      Topher, L4H, etc

      January 15, 2014 at 3:15 pm |
      • Topher

        Nope.

        January 15, 2014 at 3:38 pm |
        • Madtown

          Hey man, take a joke. I am glad to hear that you're a Brewer fan, despite the fact that this means we have something in common. Just don't tell me you love the Packers! 😉

          January 15, 2014 at 3:44 pm |
        • Topher

          Actually I'm a White Sox fan. So I only like the Brewers because they beat the Cubs. 😉

          January 15, 2014 at 3:54 pm |
        • Madtown

          Everyone beats the Cubs. 🙂 Don't understand the new mascot.

          January 15, 2014 at 3:58 pm |
        • Topher

          It's just the Cubs yet again focusing on anything except winning baseball.

          January 15, 2014 at 4:03 pm |
    • Lawrence of Arabia

      The Bible indicates that souls are given to men in the womb... The actual time isn't said, but I would as.sume at conception.
      Furthermore, in many passages, the Bible indicates that there is a special grace given to those who are without the ability to know right from wrong – the pre-born, the infant, and the mentally infirm – and that special grace becomes active should they die, taking them to heaven.
      (Mark 10:13-16, Deuteronomy 1:39, 2 Samuel 12:16-23)

      January 15, 2014 at 3:20 pm |
      • It's all about the money....

        Only give souls to men?

        What about females and hermaphrodites? What about animals?

        January 15, 2014 at 3:22 pm |
        • Lawrence of Arabia

          "Only give souls to men?"
          -------–
          It's a figure of speach...

          January 15, 2014 at 3:26 pm |
        • It's all about the money....

          Oh, of course...I always forget how figurative the bible is...and it's followers.

          January 15, 2014 at 3:31 pm |
      • Brother Maynard

        So these fetus go directly to heaven.
        So why are xtians so up in arms to stop abortions? These fetus's / babies go directly to heaven and are in the arms of Jesus pain free enjoying the fruits of everlasting love.
        Stoping abortions seems to be forcing pain if not outright torture on these babies via lifes natural course.

        January 15, 2014 at 3:26 pm |
        • Lawrence of Arabia

          Because Biblically speaking, a parallel can be drawn between abortion and demonic worship...

          Psalm 106:35-39 – “But they mingled with the nations and learned their practices, and served their idols, which became a snare to them. They even sacrificed their sons and their daughters to the demons, and shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and their daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan; and the land was polluted with the blood. Thus they became unclean in their practices, and played the harlot in their deeds.”

          Today, people don't sacrifice knowingly to demons, but instead they sacrifice their children to the god of convenience.

          January 15, 2014 at 3:29 pm |
        • Brother Maynard

          LA sez:
          Today, people don't sacrifice knowingly to demons, but instead they sacrifice their children to the god of convenience.
          So what ? And by this sacrifice the fetus / baby goes to heaven.
          You are saying that the vehicle in which one goes to heaven is more important that acutally going to heaven?

          January 15, 2014 at 3:34 pm |
        • Madtown

          people don't sacrifice knowingly to demons, but instead they sacrifice their children to the god of convenience
          -----–
          That strikes me as an interpretation. You've said before you don't interpret the bible, you just read it, and it interprets itself. So, all humans should get the same meaning from these verses?

          January 15, 2014 at 3:34 pm |
        • It's all about the money....

          @Lawrence of Arabia
          " the blood of their sons and their daughters "
          Technically if the fetus is aborted early enough, it's genitals have not formed yet so it is neither male nor female. So without gender it's not a real sacrifice.

          But an interesting perspective to compare demon worship to abortion...but like didn't God sacrifice his only son when he sent Jesus down? God sent Jesus down to earth knowing he would be murdered by jealous Jews. Isn't that a form of abortion?

          January 15, 2014 at 3:37 pm |
        • Alias

          @LoA
          You are getting very close to saying there are other gods.

          January 15, 2014 at 3:41 pm |
        • Brother Maynard

          Think about this
          Wouldn't xtians prefer to KNOW that they sent a baby to heaven rather than bearing said child and having the chance that it grows up and becomes ... say Hitler / Stalin?

          January 15, 2014 at 3:43 pm |
        • raul herrera

          "a parallel can be drawn between abortion and demonic worship..."

          is true. i know lady who was in kitchen making a breakfast and the devil make this bad energy wave that go from toaster to her cell phone and to her refrigerator – it make like a triangle of bad energy and cause her to throw out her baby real fast right there in kitchen. some people say devil sometimes gets in toaster but i think it somehow got into refrigerator.

          January 15, 2014 at 3:58 pm |
        • Pete

          If everyone who dies ignorant of ever hearing of Christ automatically goes to heaven then missionaries are very bad people indeed. 🙂

          January 15, 2014 at 4:05 pm |
      • Ben

        Lawrence of Arabia
        That would depend on whether you see the soul being tied to the brain. Generally, we consider a person dead when they are brain dead, right? If that's the case, and a soul is released when the brain dies then it should sound reasonable to a Christian that a fetus needs a working brain in order to have a soul. Since a working brain implies the ability to feel pain and suffering then the present abortion regulations would only see fetuses removed before they have souls, yes?

        January 15, 2014 at 3:33 pm |
        • Lawrence of Arabia

          If you look at it that way I guess you could argue that. But the Bible as a whole teaches us that we're not "bodies with a soul," but rather we are "souls with a body." From that paradigm, it is the sould that God first creates, then the body is formed for it, and in that sense, the soul is present from conception.

          January 15, 2014 at 4:00 pm |
        • Ben

          But such a soul would be completely empty of anything particular until senses can input feelings, impression, and the like, unless you're arguing that people's personalities preexist their conception. It would violate the concept of free will if God made people's personalities, which includes their decision making motives, himself, right?

          January 15, 2014 at 4:12 pm |
      • No Evidence

        You're wrong, the bible indicates that souls are not given until birth.

        January 16, 2014 at 2:20 pm |
        • igaftr

          Exactly correct. I have never encounter a conceived-again christian, but have met many that claim they are born-again. The rebirth being a symbol of a new soul.

          January 16, 2014 at 2:26 pm |
      • ME II

        @Lawrence of Arabia,
        "The Bible indicates that souls are given to men in the womb... The actual time isn't said, but I would as.sume at conception."

        Isn't the Bible rather unclear. Doesn't the Bible often treat life as starting with the first breath as in Gen and fetuses as mere property as in Exodus 21:22-25?

        January 16, 2014 at 3:00 pm |
  17. Lawrence of Arabia

    As long as you are on public property, you can say whatever you want. Our rights to free speach protect protestors, open air preachers, and gay rights activists. When you cross the lines onto private property, the property owner then has the right to tell you what you can or cannot do on it.

    "I may not agree with what you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it!"
    – somebody important whose name escapes me...

    January 15, 2014 at 3:01 pm |
    • Ben

      Sounds like something that John Wayne would have said. A Republican, who said that he would support JFK simply because he was the president. That kind of patriotism is rare these days in the GOP.

      January 15, 2014 at 3:07 pm |
    • Alias

      But you do not have the right to block roads or sidewalks so other people cannot use them.

      January 15, 2014 at 3:22 pm |
      • Lawrence of Arabia

        I agree.

        January 15, 2014 at 3:26 pm |
    • Maddy

      Voltaire said that.

      January 15, 2014 at 4:19 pm |
      • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

        Ironic don't you think, LOA quoting Voltaire?

        In the event is misatttributed to Voltaire and is from Evelyn Beatrice Hall as a paraphrase:
        http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Evelyn_Beatrice_Hall

        January 15, 2014 at 4:33 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      There is long established SCOTUS precedent for limits on free speech, going back to Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.'s opinion in 1919.

      The protesters are free to say anything they want, on public property a safe distance from people who need to use the facility.

      January 15, 2014 at 4:30 pm |
  18. Ben

    The legal problem with right to life is that they have to argue that a fetus has more rights than someone who has been born. They argue that a fetus is dependant upon its mother for survival, but what about somebody who needs an organ transplant? Do you have the right to refuse having your organs harvested, either after death or while alive? If you feel that you do then you feel that you have the same right to control what happens to your body that a pregnant woman feels, regardless of whose life is at stake, right?

    January 15, 2014 at 2:55 pm |
    • Lawrence of Arabia

      I think I heard it best put this way...

      "No action should be legally permissible if its intent is to take the life of an innocent human being. Therefore, in recognition of the biological reality that human life begins at the moment of fertilization, the unborn child is ent.itled to the protection of the law under all circu.mstances and at every stage of pregnancy. In those rare instances in which the pregnancy poses an immediate and life threatening risk to the mother, she should be allowed to direct her physician to perform any medical procedure that is necessary to save her life, provided that in that effort, the physician must always do whatever is possible to save the lives of both the mother and the baby. If, as an unintended consequence of saving the mother’s life, her unborn child loses its life, that should be viewed as a profoundly, deeply sad, and regrettable, but lawful outcome."

      January 15, 2014 at 3:11 pm |
      • Alias

        You want to define the fetus as a human and give it rights. What you are not doing is giving it resonsibilities as well.
        Under the law the mother has rights too.

        January 15, 2014 at 3:27 pm |
        • Ben

          He wants to give fetuses more rights than people who have been born. There is no instance where somebody could be forced to risk their lives to save somebody else, is there? Even if you are the only person in the whole world with a heart that could save somebody, there is no legal way anyone could force you to donate it even after you are dead. The law recognizes people's rights to absolutely control their bodies, and this is no different.

          January 15, 2014 at 3:58 pm |
      • Ben

        If you were scuba diving and someone in your party ran out of air, but managed to cling to cling to your mask. Would you be a "murderer" if you decided not to share because you both might run out? Pregnancy is always risky. Woman die every day while giving birth, so, even if a fetus was recognized as a "person", is it really fair to demand that someone risk their lives for someone else's?

        January 15, 2014 at 3:27 pm |
        • Lawrence of Arabia

          If you were scuba diving and someone in your party ran out of air, but managed to cling to cling to your mask. Would you be a "murderer" if you decided not to share because you both might run out?
          -----------
          No, certainly not.

          "Pregnancy is always risky. Woman die every day while giving birth, so, even if a fetus was recognized as a "person", is it really fair to demand that someone risk their lives for someone else's?"
          --------–
          But you're not permitted to use your body to kill an innocent person. Sure, pregnancy is risky, but many people kill their children for convenience or lifestyle. If there is a legitimate threat to the mother's life, I'm not a pacifist, and I understand that there are very rare cases where an abortion is required to save the mother's life, but it isn't a flippant decision. And it is never a pleasant thing to do.

          January 15, 2014 at 3:34 pm |
        • Ben

          Every pregnancy is risky to a woman, just like every surgery has some element of risk. If someone told you that only your bone marrow could save some complete stranger, would you accept somebody forcing you to be put under, have your spine drilled into, with the possibility that you could stroke out, be paralyzed, or something else? Do you believe that people have a right to keep their spare kidney? If everyone had them harvested then millions of people could be saved, right? How is that different?

          How is abortion using your body to kill an innocent person?

          January 15, 2014 at 3:53 pm |
      • ThinkFree

        So if a fetus has legal protection from conception and all during the pregnancy, can the birth-father of an aborted fetus legally sue the mother for wrongful death? Or murder? Would she be arrested? Is that what these "in-your-face" protesters hope the outcome of an abortion to be? The same as if a early-term pregnant woman is assaulted and miscarries? This would be murder, too? These lines can zig-zag all over the place! How many lives need to be screwed up for a hole in a condom?

        January 15, 2014 at 3:31 pm |
        • Lawrence of Arabia

          "can the birth-father of an aborted fetus legally sue the mother for wrongful death? Or murder? Would she be arrested?"
          ------
          If she kills her child when it is not medically necessary to save her life, then yes, she is a murderer. Not that killing her child is a first choice, but the regrettable outcome of attempting to save both of their lives.

          But that's the point, we are talking about innocent human life.

          January 15, 2014 at 3:36 pm |
        • Ben

          Not if you see this as an issue where women have the right to end a pregnancy.

          If protestors were really interested in saving lives then they would be putting money into technology aimed at transplanting fetuses into willing hosts.

          January 15, 2014 at 3:39 pm |
  19. ThinkFree

    These protesters are not Pro-Life, the are Pro-BIRTH. Once mom has the baby, their conviction tends to wane and buffer zones are no longer necessary.

    January 15, 2014 at 2:52 pm |
    • When men can get pregnant...

      They are pro *forced* birth. And no, they have not exhibited any concern over what happens to the child once it is born.

      January 15, 2014 at 4:34 pm |
    • Reality # 2

      There are no buffer zones at the Mother's Home. See http://www.mothershome.org/ for details on where those who respect human life in all its forms send their donations.,

      January 16, 2014 at 11:49 am |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.