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February 17th, 2014
10:29 AM ET
A faithful death: Why a snake handler refused treatmentBy Daniel Burke, Belief Blog Co-editor (CNN) - In the close-knit town of Middlesboro, Kentucky, almost everyone knew what was happening inside the Full Gospel Tabernacle in Jesus Name Church - including Police Chief Jeff Sharpe. Despite a Kentucky law that prohibits snake-handling at religious events, Sharpe said he "made a decision not to involve this police department in somebody's church service." "I'm not going to tell you that I didn't know what was going on. This is a small town," Sharpe said. "But we're not going to bust into anybody's church on Sunday morning." The trouble at Full Gospel Tabernacle began on Saturday night, when Pastor Jamie Coots, whose serpent-handling religious rituals made him a reality TV star, died after a rattlesnake sunk its fangs into his right hand. Coots was a third-generation serpent handler and aspired to one day pass the practice, and his church, on to his adult son, Little Cody. MORE ON CNN: Reality show snake-handling preacher dies - of snakebite Despite Coots' death, Sharpe said he will not enforce Kentucky's ban against using serpents in religious services. "The Middlesboro police have their priorities and the State Police have theirs. If they want to come in and investigate that or any other church, they are quite welcome." A National Geographic show featured Coots and cast handling copperheads, rattlers and cottonmouths. The channel's website shows a picture of Coots, goateed, with a fedora covering his bald head. "Even after losing half of his finger to a snake bite and seeing others die from bites during services," Coots "still believes he must take up serpents and follow the Holiness faith," the website says. Coots belonged to a small circle of Pentecostal Holiness pastors who take this passage from the Bible's Gospel of Mark literally: “And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.” Since those words are said to be spoken by Jesus, pastors like Coots take them as divine commandments. But there are other spiritual reasons to handle serpents, practitioners say, often describing the dangerous rituals as a mental and emotional rush, as if they were touching the hand of God. "They almost always use drug metaphors, like 'higher than any high you can experience," said Paul Williamson, a professor of psychology at Henderson State University in Arkansas who studies serpent handlers. At the same time, they are extremely careful with the serpents, Williamson said, only allowing those who live sin-free lives and have been "annointed" by the Holy Spirit to handle the snakes. "There's death in that box," pastors often warn the congregation before services start. "Because serpent handling is not a practice that occurs in the mainstream, people tend to look at it as anomalous and strange, " said Williamson. "But to them, it's really no different from a Catholic who takes Communion. It's a powerful and immediate experience of God that gives meaning and purpose to their lives." Williamson estimates there are at most 2,000 people who belong to the few hundred churches, centered in Appalachia, that practice serpent handling. Most of the churches, like Coots', are fairly small, with less than 50 worshippers. Faith in the divine played a role on Coots' death Saturday night, Sharpe said. "He was very open about his beliefs, that if he was bitten, he did not want medical treatment." Coots had been bitten by a snake a half-dozen times before and recovered. Williamson said Coots and other snake-handlers generally seek medical treatment for other ailments. "But when it comes to serpent-handling, it requires a belief in God and obedience to the commands of Jesus. If something does happen, they trust God with the consequences." Sharpe said his department and an ambulance crew responded to a call at the church Saturday night but Coots and his family had already gone home. When they arrived at the Coots home, the pastor was unconscious and "in pretty bad shape." Medical professionals stayed at Coots' house for half an hour, telling the family about the consequences of not seeking treatment, the police chief said, as family, friends and church members came and went. But the Coots family was adamant that God alone would heal the pastor, if it was divine will. "Certainly, they were not aware of the danger," Sharpe said. "We have to offer this treatment, but we can't force them to take it." Coots was far from the first serpent-handler to die from a snakebite. Mack Wolford, one of the tradition's most famous practitioners, was killed by a bite in 2012. His father died in 1983 from the same cause. The police chief said he knew Coots fairly well and spoke with the pastor several times about being bitten by serpents. It is not illegal to keep poisonous snakes in Kentucky, but it requires permits from the state Fish and Wildlife Department. Coots' permits were up-to-date, Sharpe said. "He was pretty meticulous." "They were well aware of what they were doing, that they were handling dangerous snakes and could get bit. Please understand that these are not ignorant people but people with beliefs just a little outside the mainstream." In February 2013, Coots was given one year of probation for crossing into Tennessee with venomous snakes. The state banned snake-handling in 1947 after five people died within a two-year span, the National Geographic Channel says on the show site. He was previously arrested in 2008 for keeping 74 snakes in his home, according to the channel. (CNN's Ashley Fantz contributed to this report.)
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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I grew up in the bible belt and, all the Christians notwithstanding, it is a pretty common sense place. I was taught to either kill a snake or leave it alone.
Do you know why snakes don't have legs?
Do tell.
And forked tongues?
Is there a punchline coming Dala?
No.
According to some, the answer may be in The Babble, perhaps in wolfie's favorite chapter.
Yep. They used that metaphor.
If there is no punchline, what is your point of asking questions unrelated to the post that didn't go anywhere?
It was pointless. But very relevant.
I was counting on Apple Bush having a funny reply. It didn't happen. And I really didn't have anything as a back up plan.
My bad.
Actually, Dalahast, the answer to the "no legs" issue IS in the Bible. It was one of the serpent's punishments after tricking Adam and Eve into eating the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. According to the Bible, "And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life." Just saying...
And we finally have a punchline! Thanks for the laugh maanirantel.
Snake legs – several different animal types (including an amphibian) have come to rely on the "slithering" mode of locomotion. It usually is seen in areas of dense undergrowth and/or foliage.
Forked tounge – allows for stereoscopic sensing.
That help?
No.
Could it be the curse God put on it? The one that says he will make it slither on its belly? You know the one after the time where it was in the tree tempting Eve, so I guess when it tempted Eve it looked more like a Lizard, but then afterward God plucked it's limbs off for punishment along with giving women birth pains. Now if you actually believe that along with light refraction not existing until after the flood when God says he invented rainbows then I've got a piece of Ocean front property i'd like to sell you in the Maldives... it's a very good price and with global climate change being a hoax, i'm sure it will still be there for a long time...
He probably should have checked with the snake to make sure it was christian too.
But you know those snakes....they lie.
The dictionary defines the word "superstition" in this way:
An irrational belief that an object, action, or circumstance not logically related to a course of events influences its outcome.
Prayer is rank superstition, nothing more. People who believe in the power of prayer are no different than people who believe in the power of crystal balls, snakes, horoscopes or lucky rabbits feet. Prayer is scientifically proven to be meaningless
The belief in God is pure superstition.
So their belief said if you believe in god then he will protect you when handling snakes.
Then they said that god will heal him if it is his will.
So that he was bitten and died suggests, using their logic, that god wanted him dead; maybe angry with him or sending a message, or whatever.
Wonder if they still think, after such an event, that he is in heaven though?
I thought Jesus said that his followers should obey the civil laws of their land. The deliberate flaunting of Kentucky state law by Paster Coots and the lazy ass, cowardly non-enforcement of the law by Police Chief Sharpe caused this unnecessary and preventable death.
Check the back pews on sunday, maybe the sheriff is there.
Getting his "envelope" for looking the other way?
nah, worshiping with them.
So he's looking the other way when it's his friends breaking the law?
pssst, doobzz, maybe just a fast-typing slip there, but it should be "flouting", not "flaunting".
Thanks, yes. "Flouting".
I'll blame auto correct, just to assuage my ego. Or, I could say it's a translational error or cultural anomaly in my part of the country.
Outstanding! lol
Poison is real. Poisonous snakes are real delivery systems for poison. That is 100% for sure.
Who bets against 100% when others have died doing this proving intervention is far from 100%? Delusion is a very powerful thing, apparently more powerful than reality in some.
I feel so sorry for the children of these wackos.
Me too.
Apple,
40 years ago this Jamie Coots was the child of a wacko, who was also the child of a wacko... and Jamie's 21 year-old son is doing the same thing...
That illustrates the point. Brainwashing and lack of education. Personally, I don't put these people in any lower esteem than the average religious child abusing brain-washer.
Apple,
Yeah, I've seen videos of the Pentecostal "services" that show little kids fainting, collapsing and writhing in 'ecstasy' (or whatever). It's sickening.
Living in the US a person can develop a skewed perspective on how much humans have advanced. People of different backgrounds live together in relative peace. We may reel when one group exerts political pressure on another group, but it is usually dealt with politically and/or in courts.
In Africa and Asia, that is not the case. Disagreements are dealt with brutally. Many are simple battles over territory or natural resources, as humans have fought over throughout history.
But it is surprising how much of this brutality is still being conducted over religious beliefs. In the Central African Republic, the Christian majority are brutalizing Muslims with murder and ethnic cleansing after a Muslim uprising earlier. In Nigeria, Muslim extremists bent on imposing Sharia law are on a rampage. In the middle east of course there is a battle raging between Sunni and Shiites with Iran tipping the scales (it's overshadowing their hatred for the Israelis right now). Similar issues flare up in India and western China has religious battles going on.
I'm glad I live in the United States where I can be free. Some countries, like North Korea would have me executed for believing in Jesus and carrying a book. Fanatical anti-religious people frighten me just as much as fanatical religious people.
Some people get fanatical over their race, nationality, property, etc. and completely ignore what their religion asks them to do.
Dalhast...who are the anti religious people you are scared of? The biggest threat to religion is other religions. Most atheists here have nothing against the religious folks as far as I can tell ..we just like to point out some of the insanity perpetrated by the belief in a god..as illustrated by this story
I'm not scared of most of the atheists here. We generally believe in the same ideals.
There are extremists that I fear.
What consenting cult members do in their clubhouses is not my business but if a child dies because of their insanities, and flagrant disregard for the law, I hope every legal means is used to shut them down, including bankrupting every member.
That is one thing that occurred to me when I read this...
...Sharpe said. "But we're not going to bust into anybody's church on Sunday morning."
If "Sharpe" did his job, he would have saved a life. I blame the police too.
The life in question here was not worth saving.
I want to say something about this, but what can one say? The man wanted to die.
He died doing what he loved.
We should all be so lucky.
You could say the same thing about a heroin addict who dies of an overdose.
Bless their hearts.
god lied to him right to the grave maybe in his next life he wont be as stupid, i pray that he is born in a non christian family.
Good to see a bit of stupidity removed from the gene pool.
Except that he has already reproduced...
Ok, editors, we understand that you like posting these articles.
But, where is the article about
1) The satanist who killed 22 people?
2) The book by Wendy Doniger exposing Hinduism?
Do you not believe in covering all faith angles?
Those are right behind the cover ups going on at the RCC.
I believe they are still trying to confirm the story of the girl who claimed to be a killer. I'm sure that the story will appear once the know if there is more than one victim.
Perhaps they are waiting until there are some actual facts about the self-proclaimed satanist before they publish an opinion piece on her. So far all the authorities have are her claims. It might not even be accurate.
Not heard of either of the two stories you have listed. You have a link to those stories making news recently?
Yes,
Go to http://www.google.com, it will come up with the google search page.
Type the two stories listed above and you will see plenty of hits.
The second story seems to have the Hindus up in arms against the book, looks like they(hindus) somehow feel that they have a free pass at criticizing others here but when it comes to their own are very closed minded and fanatic.
Enjoy your google search!
"looks like they(hindus) somehow feel that they have a free pass at criticizing others here but when it comes to their own are very closed minded and fanatic."
Sort of like you're doing here.
ugh? The book has been banned by Hindus.
Last time we checked, the book by Reza Aslan although considered blasphemous was not censored. No one was up in arms to ban the book or censor the book from being published.
Your actions are just a poor reflection of how insecure you are in your hindu faith.
Those who are secure in their faith and on the side of truth don't seek to silence the voice of others.
You think doobzz is Hindu, Lenin?
The alleged serial killer was quite recent, so you may not have seen it. Someone went on Craigslist and got at least one person to come to her house, where she killed them. She claims to have killed at least 22 people and to have started at the age of 13 in a Satanic cult. Currently, the "Satanic cult" bit is unconfirmed, as are all but one of the supposed murders.
As for the book about Hinduism, I heard about that on NPR last week. Someone wrote a book about Hindus, some priest in India got mad, and literally got the book legally banned in India because it, in HIS OWN WORDS, hurt his feelings. He actually gave that as his reason.
1. It's on the CNN front page.
2. Donigers book is tripe written solely to assauge Christians' confirmation bias that anyone not Christian is bad.
It must be SO hard to be part of the "oppressed" Christian majority. It's almost like you can't even walk up to just about ANY OTHER American and expect them to believe EXACTLY as you do. Oh wait, you DO expect them to believe exactly as you do don't you.
Let's be honest though. Playing with rattlesnakes is a pretty dumb move.
The story of the woman who claimed to have killed 22 people is on the front page, has been since it broke. Right now its a claims, nothing more.
As for the book....it didn't expose anything. It was her interpretation of the history of the background of Hinduism, and the only people up in arms about it are conservative Hindus. Numerous Hindu authors have called for the ban to be removed.
Feeling a little embarrassed about being a Christian are you?
"They were well aware of what they were doing, that they were handling dangerous snakes and could get bit. Please understand that these are not ignorant people but people with beliefs just a little outside the mainstream."
Coots was far from the first serpent-handler to die from a snakebite. Mack Wolford, one of the tradition's most famous practi.tioners, was killed by a bite in 2012. His father died in 1983 from the same cause.
Wow...just wow. At least in these cases they are not risking the lives of others like in faith healing. I do feel for the family.
Boston, I think these people just like snakes. And the thrill of danger . They are risktakers who enjoy the experience. If you tempt fate long enough, you will eventually loose.
Blatantly stealing a comment I read yesterday:
"There are old Coots and there are bold Coots, but there are no old, bold Coots!"
bostontola,
I don't know about the entire family, but his son, Cody, will be taking over the church, starting on Wed., making him the fourth generation of the family to be into that stuff.
"But it's kinda like a family tradition. If you've not been raised up in this you're not gonna understand it," Cody explained.
http://www.local8now.com/news/headlines/Snake-handling-pastor-dead–245743541.html
only wish the died before they breed
Hopefully you dont have children too. That way we dont have closed minded indiviuals that think their way is the only way. This was a personal choice on how to worship God. It is no different than any other religions that have extreme believers of how to worship God. Look at the Muslims that blow their selves up in the name of religion or the Buddhist monks that set themselves on fire in the name of religion.
i don't think any way is the "right" way, i do think Christianity, Judaism and Islam is the wrong way it teaches to be closed minded, it teaches hate. in a sense i hate , hate.
oh and comparing stupidity to martyrdom is well for lack of a better word; stupid
It was absolutely preventable, but he chose religion over common sense. In a sense, he was simply playing russian roulette.
"When religion comes in at the door, common sense goes out at the window."
— Lemuel Washburn
Matthew 4
5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6 and saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
If you folks living in that area want to hear some good preaching check out pastor Bingham at Gateway. I've watched him on television several times and heard at tent revival in person. He does a really good job.
A really god job of what? Continuing to spread unproven supernatural crap, pretending it is fact?
He does a great job of conning stupid people out of their money, and most of them really do not have extra money to spare. But, preachers are leeches that suck life out of their victims so that the preachers don't have to get regular jobs.
a good job of what? providing further warm and fuzzy feelings for believers?
Robert.." I've watched him on television several times and heard at tent revival in person. He does a really good job." Did he get the tent to come back to life?
Do you play with snakes too?
now, THERE'S AN IDEA!
robertbrown: i think you should demonstrate your piety by going out and playing with venomous snakes. french kiss one, that should really show us you go right to the back of god's short bus. but, hurry, it's getting crowded back there
If he had actually READ his Bible, he would have understood that in Mark 16:17-18, Jesus was speaking TO the apostles, and ABOUT the apostles... It says NOTHING to the church as a whole.
This is why proper hermeneutics are absolutely necessary, and in this case, bad hermeneutics had lethal consequences.
I'm sure he read the Bible. He probably just thought he was an apostle.
In many cases believing the writings of primitive peoples proves fatal.
Were they primitive?
They believed that the Earth didn't move, that the moon emitted light, and lived before the invention of toilet paper or air conditioning.
Yes, they were primative.
even to bronze age polytheist they were primitive.
In 2,000 years our best ideas will become primitive, too.
Advancement of ideas is normal, in fact highly sought after, in the scientific world. Compare that to the world of gods – no advancement, no evidence, just heaps and heaps of words trying to rationalize the irrational.
In regards to the entire history of mankind, they fall past the primitive stages. They probably didn't have as much leisure time as us, nor ipods. But they were highly intelligent.
"In 2,000 years our best ideas will become primitive, too."
So? Is that your reasoning for hanging on to even more primitive ideas?
If that's the case, next time you get sick, just have your barber drill a couple of holes in your head to let out the bad spirits. After all, in 2000 years, taking antibiotics or having chemotherapy might be considered primitive treatments for illness.
So? Is that your reasoning for hanging on to even more primitive ideas?
No. I don't hang onto primitive ideas that don't work anymore. A vast majority of Christians don't either, that is why so many hospitals have Christian (or religious) names, like St. Mary's Hospital, Providence Hospital, Menorah Medical, etc.
And there are no Christian drill a hole in your head programs.
even to bronze age polytheist they were primitive.
Dalahäst
In 2,000 years our best ideas will become primitive, too.
you do know it went bronze age -> iron age right.Christianity was in reverse we pagans bathed and drank clean water, how was that black plague?
They were writing, which was pretty advanced for that time.
Not all the pagans were that advanced, either. I mean pagans is very va.gue. You are probably the only person I've ever seen on this blog that identifies as a pagan. Welcome. I'll look forward to seeing your points of view.
"No. I don't hang onto primitive ideas that don't work anymore."
Like believing in human sacrifice to appease an angry deity? Sure, you don't. Lol.
You are probably the only person I've ever seen on this blog that identifies as a pagan. Welcome. I'll look forward to seeing your points of view.
well i'm kind of an unique pagan, being an anti-christian actually gets me shunned quite a bit by the pagan community. most pagans actually tolerate Christians, i believe this to be a mistake. i used to be like them i learns better. i do like heretic Christian just keep disagree with your god and his teachings so fare you come off as a heretic so nothing against you but your god and his teaches are still evil.
"the only good christian is a heretic Christian"
also i have been here for about 3 years know but thanks for the welcome
"Like believing in human sacrifice to appease an angry deity? Sure, you don't. Lol."
Exactly. I don't. Lololol.
What other names do you post under? I hope you are not that "peterpeter" guy that was acting hostile toward me.
Also, why don't you demonstrate how to behave? You seem to be acting just like the Christians you hate. I
the mirror effect I'm in character
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samyaza
i play the character in three general characterization; one moment I am a pompous ass hat, the next a gallant rebel fighting the ultimate evil, the back to the anguished bigot. sometimes you can catch me out of character, such as now, which is the level headed side.
Sam Yaza tens to be my primary name, before the site demanded me to sign into wordpress.
Ok, now I see. I was reading that as thesam yaza
Doobzz: "Like believing in human sacrifice to appease an angry deity? Sure, you don't. Lol."
Dalahast: "Exactly. I don't. Lololol."
Oh, my mistake. I thought that you were a Christian.
I am.
Oh, but you don't believe in the sacrifice of Jesus to save your soul from eternal damnation though.
I'm not trying to appease an angry deity.
Why did Jesus die then?
Not because he was angry at us.
I didn't ask why he didn't die, I asked why he did die.
You suggested God was angry.
No, the bible states that its deity gets angry about various things.
Now can you answer my question? Why did Jesus die?
Because on the cross we don’t see a legal transaction where Jesus pays our debt. We see God. The Word made flesh hangs from the cross as though God is saying “I would rather die than be in your sin accounting business anymore”.
Again, you are dodging my question by telling me what Jesus' death wasn't, isn't, or didn't.
Your Hallmark card drivel about "seeing God" is also not an answer.
Why did Jesus die?
TIME DATE TEST
🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
Wooohoo
🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁
The mystery of faith.
He bleed to death after being crucified.
Cute, but you still haven't answered the question.
Clearly you don't want to, as you keep dodging, trying to distract, giving a non-answer and the usual tactics you are known to use when you don't have an answer to the hard questions.
New name, but same old coward.
I'm not a coward. And you make a silly bully, internet tough guy!
That wasn't a greeting card saying.
You can read this if you want to know more to something that is similar to my understanding:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/nadiabolzweber/2012/04/a-palm-sunday-sermon-on-why-we-dont-go-straight-from-hosanna-to-he-is-risen/
It is different from yours. That is ok if we disagree.
I feel like you are asking loaded questions, and I really don't feel like playing into a formal fallacy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loaded_question
Again, you are creating diversions to try to avoid answering a simple question. That does make you a coward.
Why did Jesus die? is a simple question and you don't seem to be able to answer it. LOL! I wonder why??
I've answered it.
He died because he refused to hate the people that hated him (his murderers, accusers). He let their sin kill him. And he died innocent.
Wow, you are really dragging out the flimsy stuff now. "He let their sin kill him." LOL.
You must be pretty embarrassed and ashamed of your faith and your "messiah" if you refuse to give a direct answer to the question "Why did Jesus die?".
On the positive side, you won't be converting any new victims with your "explanation". You can't/won't/aren't able to articulate the very basis of your faith clearly.
Same old AE. Makes bold declarations, but then dances like Richard Gere in Chicago when the hard questions are asked.
TIME DATE TEST
🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
Good night and God save Illinois.
🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
I don't agree with your opinion: "believing in human sacrifice to appease an angry deity?"
You insist you are right. But that doesn't describe my belief. It describes your belief.
It is difficult to continue on when you seem to only want to insist I have to accept your idea. I can't have my own.
I do help people grow in the faith. I have evidence of that.
I never stated an opinion. I asked you a question. You refuse to answer it. You keep dodging, throwing out distractions and spinning the question, but you can't/won't answer it.
Same old AE, making declarations about the glory of his cult, but never able to withstand any real scrutiny.
Why did Jesus die?
Yes, you did state an opinion!
Most Christians do not have an angry, vengeful God. But you just think they do.
– Why did Jesus die?
This life has consequences. "You reap what you sow." The wages of sin are death. The selfish, self-centered, arrogant, mean-spirited, dishonest, hypocritical and judgmental things we do are sinful. These evil things harm us and those we inflict them on. God is holy and such things can not exist in his presence. Jesus takes the place of that evil in our life and he destroys it.
He died because he refused to fight back. And his death made him stronger and we can know all have access to him.
Another attempt to distract from your inability/refusal to answer a question. I didn't state an opinion – I asked you what you believe in. You continue to hedge and sidestep the answer.
Your god must be very ashamed of you right now for your denial of him and his "work".
Poor AE. So convinced he is right, yet so unable to withstand the scrutiny of his beliefs. Weak sauce.
I have answered. I'm trying to explain what I believe in. You just don't like it or something. Guess what, there are right-wing fundamentalist Christians who don't like what I believe in either. Why don't you find one of those and you guys can see eye-to-eye on your similar understandings?
Do you see where I pasted what you asked – What did Jesus die for?
Under that, my answer. He died for us, because of our evil ways, dishonesty, judgmental, hypocrisy, etc.
"He died for us, because of our evil ways, dishonesty, judgmental, hypocrisy, etc."
Why?
Because everything has consequences. We are responsible for what we do. Dishonesty, for example, interferes with God's plan. Like in the myth of Adam and Eve: after doing something wrong, they lied, blamed others and wouldn't take responsibility for their actions.
God has to teach them to be better.
My dog likes to run out of the front door and chase cats. I know it is dangerous for him because there is a lot of fast traffic on my street. So I have to scold and discipline my dog so he doesn't kill himself.
From my dog's perspective, I'm probably being an angry and vindictive d-ic-k head. But I know better than he does. I'm doing it to protect him because I love him.
And, look, there is no simple 3 or 4 word answer to that question. So I'm making an analogy. And it really doesn't do the situation justice. But I'm trying to let you know what I have been taught.
LOL, that is a really dumb analogy. Do you make your dog repent when it runs into the street, like your god does with you? Does your dog kill a cat for you to make up for its "sin"?
You are such a coward, AE. There is a simple answer to my question. You know it and I know it. You are just too cowardly to address the issue head on and insist on distractions and non answers to cover for you.
No. And nobody makes me repent, either. Nor do I kill anything for my sin. It is an analogy, not a perfect description.
What is your answer? I"m sure I've heard it before and can find it present on various message boards and fanatical atheist webpages. So? I don't agree.
That doesn't make me a coward. What you think about me doesn't really matter. Your just a dude on the internet with an opinion different than mine.
It really is ok. I'm fine with your beliefs. They are yours. Not mine.
"What is your answer?"
I'm the one who asked the question. You're the one with the answers, remember? You're just too cowardly to state what your beliefs are because you know that they won't stand up to scrutiny.
I asked you a question, too, and now what? You do the same thing you accuse me of by not answering it? That is hypocrisy in action.
There is evidence I'm not too cowardly to state what my beliefs are. I've been typing them to you.
If you need to resort to name calling to get your point across it must not be that compelling. I guess that is why not many support your views.
No, you haven't answered my question. You've danced around it.
"If you need to resort to name calling to get your point across it must not be that compelling. I guess that is why not many support your views."
Are you a mind reader? Wow, that must be awesome. But I will go back and try to find the question you asked.
I asked you the same question you were asking me!!!!
Why did Jesus die?
I have no idea. There's almost no evidence that he ever lived, so why he died is impossible to know, other than all humans die.
Ok. Most atheists admit he exist. They just don't see the evidence of his supernatural claims.
And it didn't take you a day to drag the answer out of me either.
You, on the other hand, are still trying to get away with "It's complicated." and other non answers. You don't even have the balls to quote Hebrews 10:12. You're a coward and you can't even stand up for the religion you spout off here as truth.
I've been trying to explain it to you.
The fear or me being a coward: your imagination.
My religion:
“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.” (1 Timothy 2:3-6)
Jesus Christ will save all humanity. Not just the Christians who literally believe what you imagine.
It is part of God's plan to restore His whole creation.
That is the Good News.
I'm familiar with the theology you are preaching. I don't believe that or preach that theology. I have trust and confidence in a different understanding.
It is really that simple.
What theology am I preaching?
I think you might be preaching the "Satisfaction theory of atonement"
Except instead of a God who is protecting justice, you have one that is just a vindictive p.rick.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atonement_%28satisfaction_view%29
LOL!! I'm not preaching about your god or anyone else's god. I simply mentioned a scripture.
I'm talking about your answer and what you insinuate it means.
Not the scripture you posted. That line of scripture by itself means nothing.
Please be specific. This is a long thread and I really am not sure what answer you mean or what you think I am insinuating. I'm tired of trying to get you to answer by playing Twenty Questions.
"Jesus Christ will save all humanity. Not just the Christians who literally believe what you imagine."
What am I imagining?
You are imagining I believe something different. I'm not really sure what you imagine I believe.
I have no idea what you believe. You won't tell me.
I have similar views to this guy:
"Christian exclusiveness, for that is what the lack of charity suggests, cannot face the requirements of modesty, the notion that all is not known and that we do not know all. When devout Christians believe that only Christians of a particular doctrinal stripe have access to God, that, for example, God hears their prayers only, they stand in cosmic immodesty. The Christian Bible more than once makes the point that God’s ways are not our ways, and that the mind of God is vastly different from our own minds. Thus, when Christians state categorically that Jews, or Muslims, or believers in other faith systems are outside the provisions of God, they utter arrogant nonsense. A respectful agnosticism is called for when often there is offered in its place a self-interested certainty. If God is the God of all, and not just a tribal deity, then God has made provision, not necessarily known to us, for the healing and care of all his creation, and not simply our little part of it.
J. B. Phillips observed many years ago that one’s God is too small if within God’s providence there is no care and awareness of the other. This is what the hymn writer F. W. Faber meant in “There’s a Wideness in God’s Mercy,” when he said:
For the love of God is broader
Than the measure of our mind:;
And the heart of the Eternal
Is most wonderfully kind.
If there is any good news that is truly good news for everybody, and not just for a few somebodies, it is this: God is greater and more generous than the best of those who profess to know and serve him. This is the radical nonconformity with the conventional wisdom that Jesus both proclaimed and exemplified, and, alas, it cost him his life. Will we hope to fare any better, as disciples of his nonconformity?"
– Peter Gomes
God has made provision (Jesus), not necessarily known to us (mystery), for the healing and care of all his creation (salvation), and not simply our little part of it (universal).
That means nothing. So you have views similar to this guy? Where do you agree with him and where do you differ? Why do you agree or not agree? And none of it addresses the original question.
Another way of not saying what you really believe. Keep it up. You probably create doubt in someone's mind every time you post some drivel that is "similar to my views" and more greeting card crap as an answer.
Oh well. Some guy on the internet doesn't like me.
Darn. I tried to explain, sorry for the misunderstandings. Peace out.
Run away, little coward. LOL.
TIME DATE TEST
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Posting the magical way......
"What is your answer? I"m sure I've heard it before and can find it present on various message boards and fanatical atheist webpages. So? I don't agree."
That's the only question I see you asking, but I don't see what it is referring to. Interesting that you already know my answer to a question I didn't realize you asked and don't agree with the answer I never gave.
I asked you why do you think Jesus died?
I told you what I thought. You didn't like it. But I tried to explain myself.
You keep saying that I didn't like your answer. Not true. You are putting words into my mouth.
I simply pointed out that you didn't answer the question. You gave a lot of blather about seeing god and Jesus dying because he refused to hate his enemies. You tried a few distractions which didn't work either.
Why did Jesus die?
It is complicated. It is not an easy answer. So let me explain...
(now start to read everything I have posted).
That is my understanding of it.
That is what I know and what I have been taught and experienced.
I have no idea why you say I am not answering it. That is your imagination or something. I asked if you could give me your answer to the question and you haven't answered. You are basically doing the exact thing you accuse me of.
Oh well.
I answered. Sorry if it wasn't quick enough for you.
TIME DATE TEST
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Posting the secret Christian way......
Gentlemen! Take look at the time stamps on posts in this thread. The posts are out of order making it very difficult to follow questions and answers. I was told months ago this has to do with the interface used to enter a post – the web interface vs the native WordPress interface – but I don't remember the details. Anyway, this may be contributing to a "failure to communicate."
I am replying through the "notifications" tab. Not through the message board (not directly any way).
–Time Traveling AE ->
"Howdy"
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@HHA
I am posting from WordPress, except this response, because it didn't show up there. Don't know why things got out of order – I responded in the order Dala's posts came up. Sorry if I contributed to the confusion.
Confused?
No, you?
Just testing out the date/posting placement thing.
No need for any apologies as I don't think this is a user issue, it's an interface issue. But I do suspect that at least one vociferous user uses this "feature" to his advantage, present company excepted, of course.
Back to the Future.
TIME DATE TEST
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Posting the normal way......
He was clearly speaking to the apostles, but where does he limit this to apply only to them?
Or did everything he sadi to the apostles only apply to them?
As with interpreting any doc.ument: context and internal clues.
Christians claim that anyone can read and understand the bible, except when the bible is obviously wrong. Then there are "translational mistakes", "context", "internal clues", "cultural anomalies", and various other complicated and impossibly circuitous reasonings that must be made.
theo,
"internal clues."
What kind of just, loving god sends people to eternal torment (or oblivion) for incorrectly following the ambiguous 'clues' and guessing Miss Scarlett in the Kitchen with a rope instead of Professor Plum in the Ballroom with a revolver?
Your "God" character is an evil Gamemaster.
I believe the rational is that ALL christians are expected to be apostles, so it should apply to all "true" christians.
It could be, but the problem with trying to say that all believers are apostles is that the Biblical definition of an apostle includes being appointed directly by Christ, and having seen the risen Lord. This man was neither of those.
Or you could just read it with the understanding that it is a work of fiction, pieced together by men from the writings of other men.
Actually, it is YOUR hermeneutics that is wrong.
Here is the passage, in context: "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."
Note that: "All these signs shall follow them that believe"; i.e., not "all these signs shall follow only you" (i.e., the Apostles), but "them that believe" – i.e., anyone and everyone that believes. This is pretty clear, and needs no interpretation.
Having faith is one thing, tempting death is quite another in my opinion.
1 in 4 Americans Apparently Unaware the Earth Orbits the Sun
They must have been sick the day this was taught in school.
By Samantha Grossman, Time Magazine Feb. 16, 2014
Does the Earth go around the sun, or does the sun go around the Earth?
When asked that question, 1 in 4 Americans surveyed answered incorrectly. Yes, 1 in 4. In other words, a quarter of Americans do not understand one of the most fundamental principles of basic science. So that’s where we are as a society right now.
The war on rationality will not help us compete in this century.
Do you think a lot of nonbelievers are scientists or at least science minded?
Robert,
I can't say. That is a red herring with respect to my point though. Having a fourth of people not know something that basic is perilous given how competi.tive this next century will be. We have enjoyed world dominance for multiple generations, so we have forgotten what compet.ition feels like.
Of course, if 70% of Americans claim one form of Christianity or another, but only 1 out of 4 Americans knows that the Earth revolves around the sun, then this is clearly not a "religious" issue, or 3 out of 4 Americans would not know it. So it is not JUST (some, maybe many) believers who don't know this, but many atheists (or at least non-believers) as well.
You read that stat completely backwards. 1 in 4 didn't know the earth revolved around the sun. Probably almost all Christians.
many if he pulled the bible out of his backside, he could have thought more clearly
Why would you deal with the devil for a living?
Dealing with imaginary creatures and scaring people into giving you money can be lucrative. Joel Osteen seems to be doing pretty well with the concept.