 |
|
|
|
  About this blog
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
|
|
|
|
| Part of 
why when atheists prove to a Christian that their religion is absurd, the Christian calls the atheist "arrogant" or "superior" and somehow thinks that counters the facts that have just proved Christianity absurd?
There are a few atheists that imagine they prove other people's belief systems are absurd. But what they really only prove is they themselves are arrogant and have a superiority complex.
Dalahast I'd say from your recent posts that you are really quite the pompous arrogant prick yourself. One of the worst here really and that's sayin lots.
As for superiority you yourself must have superior pain tolerance since you can still type even with such a gigantic pomposity stick inserted so deeply up your rear orifice. Whatever makes your fat lazy backside happy, I guess.
You sound like that "peterpeter" guy that started posting hostile comments to me under a variety of different names. My apologies if I'm wrong.
Dalahäst, I'm still a fan of most of your posts. You speak your mind and I admire that. I do have to agree with D.g. though religions have no evidence at all. You must agree that all deities are unable to be touched, there isn't any way around it.
There is evidence. What doG is usually begging for is something like an idol. A deity that follows our orders and can be summoned to do man's will.
You've been asked repeatedly in the past what that evidence is and you've only ever answered that you cannot show any.
Yes, In Santa We Trust, you say you can't see it. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Or that I'm a delusional and brainwashed moron who rejects science. And all the atheists are logical and have a complete understanding of science and know for a fact that a human being's senses of sight, smell and touch reveal the only truths that are worth considering.
Some of what you say is true. What evidence do you have outside of the bible that a god created the universe, and what evidence do you have that it was your god as opposed to any of the hundreds currently worshipped?
I have the evidence of other people's testimonies. I have had the ability to discern and observe how they live their lives. I have my experiences and know as a man without knowledge of God I was a prey to misery. I know my self-centered nature and defects like greed, arrogance and pride stood in the way for me to truly understand the ways of the spirit. I have to God who created me. Who knows me. I'm not sure what other god or gods I would need. But I remain very open-minded to other people's experiences of God.
I take it day-by-day. And each day I have a choice on how I live my life. I choose to invite God into it. And He gives me all the evidence I need.
I have to* a God who created me.
I have a God who created me.
Some people testify for other religions so that can't be evidence else all gods would be real in your mind. I know you like to have the last word, but the only truly effective last word would be to provide some actual evidence not hearsay from unknowns.
It is really something that is personal that works for me. If I didn't have evidence, I would still be an atheist. Honest.
Atheism doesn't work for me. And every atheist that tries to convince me I'm wrong, offers different reasons for why they imagine I believe. And none of them are sufficient or factual. Talk about hearsay from unknowns.
You keep saying you have evidence but you cannot provide it – that is not evidence that is opinion.
You say you believe in evolution – the implication being that it is god-directed; what evidence do you have to support that?
You say that your god created the universe; what evidence do you have to support that?
People are my evidence of God. My experiences are evidence of God. Science is evidence of God. The fact that stories, poetry and music can reveal truths better than science is evidence of God. Life is evidence of God. I'm comfortable in my belief.
I certainly did not come to my belief like some of the people on this blog like to insist. And those reasons are varied and evidence that not all people disbelieve in God for the same reason. I do see evidence that some people who don't believe in God like to talk about God. When pressed, the motives are usually fear based.
It seems the ones that are most concerned about my belief in God don't comprehend why I believe. I try to help them understand, but all they seem to want to talk about is how sure they are of what and why I believe. And often they try to insist that science is on their side. But there is little evidence that supports that shared belief of the few atheists that post here.
Is that the Abrahamic one there Dala, or would that be some other one?
You could say that. I follow Jesus.
'People are evidence of people. Your experiences are evidence of your consiousness. Science is a tool and method of examining and making sense of evidence. The fact that stories, poetry and music can reveal truths better than science is your opinion that lack substantiation. Life is evidence of life. You delusion gives you comfort.'
**Fixed**
dalahast: jesus was crucified and buried for three days. if you want to follow jesus, your path is clear
Thanks for fixing me.
When I want to talk about science I talk to scientists.
When I want to talk about religion I talk to atheists and Christians.
"Science without Religion Is Lame, Religion without Science Is Blind"
WAIT..when did You PROVE it was absurd???? you only made claims and gave some ignorant remarks of the BIble and religion...how is THAT proof???
What evidence do you have for your god?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_F9nIps46w
.,
Good heavens, please run out and buy a few more chords and tempo changes, or at least buy me a cup of coffee if you want me to listen to any more of this crap.
A quick 10 question quiz might help explain why young Jews (and Christians) are deserting religion in droves. The core problem the priests, ministers and rabbis face is the internet. Suddenly they no longer have a monopoly on what they tell these kids while they are too young to know any better. The kids can fact check themselves and, of course, Judaism and Christianity are soon exposed as having a lot to explain. Well, actually, they can't explain anything.
Q.1 The completely absurd theory that all 7,000,000,000 human beings on the planet are simultaneously being supervised 24 hours a day, every day of their lives by an immortal, invisible being for the purposes of reward or punishment in an “afterlife” comes from the field of:
(a) Bad science fiction;
(b) Children’s fairytales;
(c) Hallucinogenic psychology; or
(d) Christianity
Q. 2 What is the only thing capable of making 40% of the country utterly stupid enough to think the entire Universe began less than 10,000 years ago with one man, one woman and a talking snake:
(a) a horrid mental disease
(b) a failed education system
(c) a successful Al Qaeda plot to undermine the future of the country; or
(d) Christianity?
Q. 3 Please complete the following sentence. It is not uncommon in many parts of the World for a young man to strap a suicide vest to himself and blow himself up and members of a rival __________
(i) corporation
(ii) university
(iii) research insti.tute; or
(iv) church?
Q. 4 It is only acceptable as an adult to believe Bronze Age mythology like talking snakes, the Red Sea splitting, mana falling from the sky, a man living in a whale's belly, a talking donkey, superhuman strength, a man rising from the dead and angels, ghosts, gods and demons in the field of:
(a) history
(b) literature
(c) anthropology
(d) religion
Q.5 I have convinced myself that gay $ex is a choice and not genetic, but then have no explanation as to why only gay people have ho.mo$exual urges. I am being obstinate and closed minded due to my:
(a) hetero$exuality
(b) genetics
(c) nationality; or
(d) religion.
Q6. I honestly believe that, when I think silent thoughts like, “please god, help me pass my exam tomorrow,” some invisible being is reading my mind and will intervene and alter what would otherwise be the course of history in small ways to help me. I am
(a) a delusional schizophrenic;
(b) a naïve child, too young to know that that is silly
(c) an ignorant farmer from Sudan who never had the benefit of even a fifth grade education; or
(d) your average Christian, Muslim or Jew who believes that prayers are answered
Q7. Millions and millions of Catholics believe that bread and wine turns into the actual flesh and blood of a dead Jew from 2,000 years ago because:
(a) there are obvious visible changes in the condiments after the Catholic priest does his hocus pocus;
(b) tests have confirmed a divine presence in the bread and wine;
(c) now and then their god shows up and confirms this story; or
(d) their religious convictions tell them to blindly accept this completely fvcking absurd nonsense.
Q.8 The only discipline known to often cause people to kill others they have never met and/or to commit suicide in its furtherance is:
(a) Architecture;
(b) Philosophy;
(c) Archeology; or
(d) Religion
Q.9 What is it that most differentiates science and all other intellectual disciplines from religion:
(a) Religion tells people not only what they should believe, but what they MUST believe under threat of “burning in hell” or other of divine retribution, whereas science, economics, medicine etc. has no “sacred cows” in terms of doctrine and go where the evidence leads them;
(b) Religion can make a statement, such as “God is comprised of God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit”, and be totally immune from experimentation and challenge, whereas science can only make factual assertions when supported by considerable evidence;
(c) Science and the scientific method is universal and consistent all over the World whereas all religion is regional and a person’s religion, no matter how deeply held, is clearly nothing more than a matter of upbringing; or
(d) All of the above.
Q.10 If I am found wandering the streets flagellating myself, wading into a filth river, mutilating my child’s genitals or kneeling down in a church believing that a being is somehow reading my inner thoughts and prayers, I am likely driven by:
(a) a deep psychiatric issue;
(b) an irrational fear or phobia;
(c) a severe mental degeneration caused by years of drug abuse; or
(d) my religious belief.
Q.11 Who am I? I don’t pay any taxes. I never have. Any money my organization earns is tax free at the federal, state and local level. Despite contributing nothing to society, but still enjoying all its benefits, I feel I have the right to tell others what to do. I am
(a) A sleazy Wall Street banker
(b) the mafia
(c) A drug pusher; or
(d) any given religious organization
Q. 12 I believe that an all-knowing being, powerful enough to create the entire cosmos and its billions of galaxies, watches me have $ex to make sure I don't do anything "naughty" (like protect myself from disease with a condom, for example). I am
(a) A victim of child molestation
(b) A r.ape victim trying to recover
(c) A mental patient with paranoid delusions; or
(d) A regular Christian, Jew or Muslim following my religious belief
In short, nothing in history of human endeavor can make otherwise smart, functioning people believe the most implausible of supernatural absurdities the way religion can.
I find that post utterly arrogant and unfounded.....
I guess you answered each question and didn't like the overall result. What's the problem? Facts don't jive with your belief in imaginary buddies?
WHAT facts? all you did was make up some silly stuff that is not even true of Christianity....yuo were mocking..not using facts
That test is not about facts.
It is about one man's poor understanding of what other people believe. It is highly fallacious and presumptuous.
-> I honestly believe that, when I think silent thoughts like, “please god, help me pass my exam tomorrow,” some invisible being is reading my mind and will intervene and alter what would otherwise be the course of history in small ways to help me.
I think most Christians will tell you that is not the point of prayer...
Another example of a:
http://aafwaterloo.wordpress.com/2011/09/18/your-superiority-complex-annoys-me/
"The Superior Atheist believes that its position as an atheist grants it an intellectual superiority above all others. It argues that its position as an atheist allows it access to a truth that more feeble minds have been unable to attain. You may hear it make statements such as, “religion is the sole cause of all wars, 9/11 happened because of religion and no other reason”, or, “the only reason for the existence of faith is a fear of death.” Such statements are, of course, wrong. "
"They are highly simplistic analysis of the complex world in which we live. Failing to account for other factors they leave much to be desired as explanations for how the world and the people in it function. Not that it matters to the Superior Atheist. "
SO what are you saying about those who pray...is it ridiculous you think that people pray to God?
Of course he is mocking religion and believers. But there is a degree of truth in each question. And while each question/point may not apply to each and every believer, they apply to some and that's good enough to make the point.
I don't believe any gods exist, almost certainly none that are listening and taking any interest in the goings on here on Earth. Note I did not say there are no gods. Every scientific test of the efficacy of prayer has shown that prayer is pointless, no better than random results or the placebo effect. So yes, I think praying is ridiculous.
and How has science "determined that?" and why pointless?
It is not really logical, but it reveals truths.
Kind of like parables and origin stories?
Can you post a reference of the scientific study of prayer.
The ones I've seen included criticisms about the approach. How can you tell someone to pray, than monitor them and measure the results?
or...it is not really factual, but it reveals truths.
Kind of like parables and origin stories?
Google "efficacy of prayer" and you will find plenty of references to studies and their results and critiques. I know of no scientific study that conclusively shows prayers works. Do you?
I personally know prayer works for me. And that is something science can not really measure because it is spiritual, not material. How do you measure serenity? It seems like a controlled study of prayer is very... un-spiritual. For me it is a practice that encourages humility. acceptance, awareness and serenity. Among other spiritual matters that are not tied to physical or scientific laws.
I have seen some studies that demonstrate a positive link between spirituality and emotional and physical well-being.
"How do you measure serenity?"
Oxytocin levels?
Let me predict how this discussion about the efficacy of prayer will go.
There will be some back and forth about can prayer be tested and the results of the various tests. Atheists will point to studies that support their position and believers will do the same. Most scientific studies will conclude prayer is not effective or the results are inconclusive. Believers will not be able to point to a properly conducted scientific study that concludes prayer is effective.
Believers will then go on say that reports to the contrary are inconclusive, prayer can't be tested and we should accept their anecdotes as real evidence. Atheists will say, no, the default position when no conclusive evidence is available is to remain skeptical and withhold affirmation until evidence is available.
Atheists will follow the available data collected use the scientific method.
Believers will blubber that their beliefs are sacrosanct, not subject to the scientific method and rules of evidence.
Atheists will say, go ahead, enjoy your delusions but please keep them within your own cult's clubhouse and don't hurt any children.
Science will reveal what it does about the physical world, regardless of what atheists or believers think.
But as far at the spiritual... ?
Even atheists can practice prayer, meditation and spirituality.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/pray-me/201309/do-atheists-pray
I understand the benefits of relaxation and focus and the placebo effects of prayer and spiritually. To move me from there to "prayer works" will take much more evidence. But go ahead, enjoy your delusions. But please keep them within the confines of your own cult's clubhouse and don't hurt any children.
I hope you don't hurt any children either.
Arrogant and Unfound describes religious belief in a nutshell
NOT neccesarily....as i said to the guy.he was doing it as to mock..I have very founded basis for my beliefs....just cause yuo dont..doesnt mean I cant
Congratulations to Colin for demonstrating that people without religion can do the exact same thing.
"Not that it matters to the Superior Atheist. "
"Not that it matters to the Superior Atheist. "
Translation,
"I don't have a coherant argument or retort so I will insist you are arrogant ".
arrogant and unfounded? sounds like your drivel, kermy
God revealed Himself to man in the very beginning. A relationship between God and the first man and woman to walk on planet earth was established in the beginning. God continued to reveal Himself to man progressively throughout time, since then — Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and his children, Moses and the people, David, Solomon and so on.
In the fullness of time, God revealed Himself to man through Jesus Christ . This was the most amazing revelation to mankind by which mankind can be reconciled with God.
God continues to reveal Himself to anyone that seeks Him.
You don't seem to account for former believers. Are just backsliders in your opinion or can you believe that we honestly don't believe anymore?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ioz3T1SQqCI&feature=player_detailpage
And some believers wonder why some people think their imaginary buddies live in the clouds. . .
CJ
You have spoken correctly.
And today God shows Himself in the person who is born again, baptized in the Spirit of God and with fire. His Spirit dwells inside that person bodily. Therefore one cannot say, where is God, because He dwells within that person.
A believer filled with the Holy Ghost is a living proof of the power of God.
Whu is it, then, that the self-proclaimed born again Christians who post here exhibit such a disturbing lack of Christian traits ?
I agree that some Christians continuously display lack of love, and all of us have at times display un-Christ-like behavior.
For the most part it's because we have not have our minds renewed to the word of God - we see ourselves in the mirror and see Christ looking back at us. Yet the moment we walk away, we forget the type of person we are (Christ in us), and begin to act out of the flesh instead of the spirit.
Why do the self-proclaimed rational folks who post here exhibit unreasonableness and fallacious logic?
Because they are flawed, imperfect and unreasonable creatures.
Almost everyone on earth is greedy, manipulative and back biting. If there are a few who allow either logic or their beliefs keep them from being as horrible as they possibly can be kudos to them.
Nicely put.
derado, that's an interesting take – what I'm getting at though, is the term "born again", as though the person were changed dramatically. Add to that the fact that they are commanded to spread the word, my question is why are they so BAD at it ? Without fail, the Christians who post here exhibit virtually no traits that I find admirable, nor would they inspire me to want to be like them. Odd.
**Why is it...**
"A believer filled with the Holy Ghost is a living proof of the power of God."
Just like Mr. snake handler here? Or is this another "No true Scotsman" things?
I cannot speak to whether or not this man was baptized in the Holy Spirit.
However, you are still here. Jesus is still knocking at the door of your heart asking to come in and dwell with you... to be the Lord of your life.
You are worth to God, Jesus. Today is the day of salvation.
How does happen? Does your god have a Facebook or Twitter account?
@CJ
that's a neat children's fairy tale. It's unfortunate though that as an adult you still believe it.
grow up!
youre pretty childish yourself saying such things rather than discussing
The Jews and the Christians have the same God more or less. That God did change quite a bit from the OT to the NT, which is curious in itself, but it is the same character. The Jews just don't believe in the messiah part, but same God. I don't find that God character well formed in either case, but in the Christian religion, the problems in formulation are worse.
It is arguable whether the OT God is moral. When an all powerful character sides with 1 tribe of feeble humans against another tribe of feeble humans, that is questionable morally. When an all powerful, all knowing character punishes the progeny of transgressors, setting a justice example that punishes people not involved, that is questionable morally. Nearly eradicating all life to correct his creation, condoning of slavery, there is a long list of questionable morality.
I think the NT God goes in the wrong direction and removes all question of its morality, it is immoral. In Judaism, the fate of the dead is much less defined. In Christianity, you don't accept Jesus and you burn for eternity. This God created humans as very imperfect and with widely varying capabilities. Some smarter, some faster, etc. Some are not suggestible to mystical explanations and were created with inquiring, skeptical minds. Many have not been exposed to Christianity at all.
That creates an uneven playing field for the afterlife. When you connect an unfair playing field to an infinite penalty (burning for eternity), that is unquestionably immoral. Wait, it gets worse. As if that wasn't bad enough, God allows Satan to roam free to tempt weak minds, weak minds created weak. This just tilts the playing field even more.
I don't believe that any all powerful, all knowing agent would have created such a flawed situation. Even feeble minded humans can see the conflict between what the authors intended (a God benevolent to their side, growing into a benevolent God for all) and what was actually created.
Humans have advanced in ethics, morals, self governance, and understanding of the universe since these books were written. The OT and NT were state of the art, but they are not up to today's standard. Following all pages literally, is like adhering to the Miasma theory of disease instead of the germ theory. The flaws are self evident. It's time to move into the 21st century.
you have to love a religion that has the first part of their holy book from another different religion.
you just couldn't make this sh1t up, could you! LOLOLOL
Well I bet you can't find any flaws in the wording of Scientology holy writings, can you?
you mean apart from all of it?
That was intended as a trick question.
Their doctrine is secret.
Until you have been in their 'church' for about 3 levels they won't show you any of it.
domo origato Alias Sensei
Going home... I leave you all with this gem... Auf Wiedersehen und einen guten abend
Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long year
Stole many a mans soul and faith
And I was round when jesus christ
Had his moment of doubt and pain
Made damn sure that pilate
Washed his hands and sealed his fate
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game
I stuck around st. petersburg
When I saw it was a time for a change
Killed the czar and his ministers
Anastasia screamed in vain
I rode a tank
Held a generals rank
When the blitzkrieg raged
And the bodies stank
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name, oh yeah
Ah, what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah
I watched with glee
While your kings and queens
Fought for ten decades
For the gods they made
I shouted out,
Who killed the kennedys?
When after all
It was you and me
Let me please introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
And I laid traps for troubadours
Who get killed before they reached bombay
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah, get down, baby
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
But what's confusing you
Is just the nature of my game
Just as every cop is a criminal
And all the sinners saints
As heads is tails
Just call me lucifer
Cause I'm in need of some restraint
So if you meet me
Have some courtesy
Have some sympathy, and some taste
Use all your well-learned politesse
Or I'll lay your soul to waste, um yeah
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, um yeah
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, um mean it, get down
Woo, who
Oh yeah, get on down
Oh yeah
Oh yeah!
Tell me baby, what's my name
Tell me honey, can ya guess my name
Tell me baby, what's my name
I tell you one time, you're to blame
Ooo, who
Ooo, who
Ooo, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Oh, yeah
What's my name
Tell me, baby, what's my name
Tell me, sweetie, what's my name
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Ooo, who, who
Oh, yeah
I srtongly dissagree with your interpretation of those last verses.
I looked at some really old rocks, and those 'who who' lines should have been translated as 'whoo whoo'.
If you knew ancient Hedrew as well as I do this would be obvious to you.
Feel free to tell all seminaries that their translation of the lexicon is wrong before an astroid the size of the yucatan destroys us all.
Two thoughts:
1. Perfect candidate for a Darwin award. Too bad he's already passed his genes on.
2. I hope they didn't hurt the snake, just for doing what snakes naturally do.
http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2014/02/21/ath-debate-religious-freedom-discrimination.cnn.html
If you are worried that your children, who you love very much, will not believe something you tell them, such as "smoking is bad for you," would you:
(a) have your family doctor explain to them the various ill effects of smoking;
(b) show them a film produced by the National Insti.tute for Health on the topic;
(c) set a good example for them by not smoking; or
(d) refuse to give them any evidence of the ill effects of smoking, insist that they rely entirely on faith and then take them out into the backyard and burn them to death if you ever catch them smoking?
And, as a bonus question, what would you think of an "all loving Father" who chose option (d)?
The complex question fallacy, ladies and gentleman. A common tactic used to promote rhetoric.
How is it fallacious? Surely you'd want a reasoned explanation for behaving a certain way.
He seems to ignore all the religious people that could school him on science, logic and reason. It is one of the mistakes he commonly makes.
I am not sure how you could get that from that post.
It sounds like something a religion-hating bigot would post. No?
Does it matter what group(s) he might belong to, how you might want to label him or what his motivation is? Ignoring those irrelevant distractions, how is he wrong?
This "all loving father" doesn't refuse to give any evidence and insist people rely entirely on faith. He doesn't burn people who disagree with Colin's imagination of what an "all loving father" does.
It sounds like something someone who is non religious would post, but I don't know about religious hating bigot. That is probably a stretch.
So the god of The Babble has provided actual evidence to all and has never threatened anyone with eternal damnation, assuming for a minute it actually exists, and I don't think it does?
Ok, that might be a stretch. He may not be a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people and ideas.
Dalahäst
Perhaps the point that colon was illustrating is the God does not explain why something is wrong in the Bible; he merely makes a moral pronouncement backed up with the threat of hellfire, right?
Uh, yea, most theology isn't based on those misunderstandings.
Dalahäst
If a man has the ability to save all of his children from a house fire, but chooses to only save his favourites, would you still call him a "good" father? God could just save everyone from hell right? No strings attached, just because we are supposedly his creations and that he loves us, but no. He wants to be worshipped. That's like the dad in my example demanding that each of his children plead to be saved before he steps in to do so. Not a very pleasant image, is it?
Dalahäst
But theology is a layer of understanding laid over what the Bible says, and it differs depending on whom you ask. If things like murder are wrong simply because it hurts other people and your security living amongst them, then what good is it that your God also disapproves? The moral point would be innate, would't it? The Bible, however, seeks to bolster the belief in God by hijacking such innate truths as his edicts.
TTFN
Weekend starts now, and I'll be busy watching hockey tomorrow. Nice talking to you.
"God could just save everyone from hell right? No strings attached, just because we are supposedly his creations and that he loves us,"
I think that is what Jesus does.
Dalahast
"He seems to ignore all the religious people that could school him on science, logic and reason. It is one of the mistakes he commonly makes."
The point was about whether there should be a reasoned explanation for behaving a certain way or whether it should be "my way or burn forever" as the bible states and your other posts about Jesus reinforce.
–"my way or burn forever" as the bible states -
I'm saying the Bible doesn't say "my way or burn forever."
It seems only a few atheists and far right-wing, religious fundamental literalists say that.
Dalahäst
No. Christianity itself is the string, with it's demands that we worship an invisible god and follow outdated rules. Most Christian groups see "salvation" as only given in exchange of worshiping God, or accepting Jesus as your personal saviour, if you prefer, but with that comes other strings, whatever strings pastors demand.
A free gift, no strings attached, would have been Jesus simple showing up and declaring "Everyone's allowed into Heaven". Instead, we supposedly got "Everyone's invited, and you can get in as long as you su.ck up to me"!
If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people!
– House
there is no god.
all the rest that we argue about on this blog is just noise.
the noise enables christians to duck and weave and dodge and obfuscate and lie and pout and whine and threaten and flee
when all we need to know is that there is NO evidence for any god. not one iota. never has been, never will be. zero. nada. nothing!
all the rest of the arguing about the fairy stories in the christian story book is just noise.
What do you mena by 'god'?
First we have to define what is and isn't a 'god'.
My dog thinks I am a god, and the cat thinks he is a god.
Or do you mean something more koranish?
By "god" he means his understanding of "god". Whatever he imagines.
By bringing my dog, cat and koran into this I thought you would conclude something about 'rhetorical'.
Does he hate your dog and cat?
Dalahäst
Is there any version of "God" that isn't the product of someone's imagination?
If you think so, how can you tell without hard evidence?
Sure.
Test it out. If it doesn't float, don't ride that boat.
kudlak
"Test it out" by, what, imagining a God that I personally like?
Are you even being serious?
+ "Test it out" by, what, imagining a God that I personally like?
Not exactly.
+ Are you even being serious?
Yes. Stay open to new ideas.
Serpent or no serpent, the idea of the christian devil is hard for me to comprehend. According to the bible, one angel challenged god. Now, I challenge the IDEA that gods exist, but it would be intensely stupid to stand in the presence of a god and try to take over. Pride and vanity do not adequately explain this. No matter what I think of myself, trying to stand in the path of a speeding freight train will not end well for me. Same scenario for an angle confronting the god that created everything.
Only severe psychosis explains this.
so you see how foolish it is for someone to give an ear to the devil... to believe his lies.
The devil didn't challenge God outright, he said in his heart...
"For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." Isaiah 14:12-15
Do you know why the creature (man/us) was subject to vanity, NOT WILLINGLY?
No, all I see is how foolish it would be to think he exists.
Not challenging outright does not really change anything I posted.
You cannot fool an all seeing god – if he exists.
Alias: "You cannot fool an all seeing god – if he exists"
Then we agree, because God also discerns the hearts of men.
So it is totally irrational and foolish to allow oneself to be fooled by the devil. And yet, many listen to the lies of the devil challenging the Word of God.
The great equalizer of mankind is subjection to vanity. A part of our progress back to the image of God is getting rid of the voice that challenges the word of God, the authority of God (disbelief in your creator), that rejects the creators love and wedding invitation as the children of Israel did.
I agree that if god and the devil existed that it would be foolish to listen to the devil.
However, the point of the post was to show one reason why I do not believe the bible is believable.
understandably you do not find the Bible believable now.
However if and when you read the Bible you were to make a determination in your heart, if there is a God out there, please reveal yourself to me, I guarantee your spiritual eyes and ears would be opened to receive the truth of the Word. Revelation doesn't come all at once... it is a gradual process.
I have read the bible.
I was born and raised christian.
That is how i know it doesn't make any sense.
"reading" the Bible doesnt guarentee you know it..neither is being raised Christian...LIVING the word and STUDYING it are what makes a change...I did more than you..I LIVED the Christian life, EXPERIENCED Gods presence..and STUDIED the Bible..did you?
You Are Perfect In God’s Eyes
Hebrews 10:12, 14, KJV
12But this man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God... 14For by one offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.
God sees you with no flaw, spot or imperfection, so honor His Word and the finished work of His Son by saying, “Amen!” Don’t doubt your perfection in Christ.
To see yourself as being far from perfect is not modesty, but a failure to understand the perfect sacrifice that Jesus has made for you.
The Bible tells us, “For by one offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified”. Did you get that? You have not only been sanctified, that is, made holy, but by the same offering of His body, you have been perfected. You are both holy and perfect in God’s eyes!
Your sins have been purged perfectly. Today, Jesus is seated at His Father’s right hand not because He is the Son of God (although that is true), but because His work of purging your sins is completely finished and perfect!
So instead of being conscious of your sins, which is to have an evil conscience (Hebrews 10:22), you can have a perfect conscience, a conscience that is free from the guilt and condemnation of sins.
When you find yourself conscious of your sins, just say, “Thank You, Lord Jesus, for Your wonderful work at the cross. It is a perfect work that has removed all my sins completely.
“Holy Spirit, thank You for convicting me of righteousness, not my own, but God’s righteousness given to me as a gift. Keep on convicting me in the days to come, reminding me especially when I fail that I am still the righteousness of God in Christ.”
My friend, God sees you perfect without any spot of sin. He sees you covered in the beautiful white robes of His own righteousness. He treats you as a righteous man because that is what He has made you. So expect good things to happen to you because blessings are on the head of the righteous! (Proverbs 10:6)
JPM
no wonder Seinfeld doesn't like you!
🙂
It's Biblical... new creation... new man...
like adam?
no, like Christ.
In Adam, all die.
In Christ, all live.
And if we only believe in jeebus, we'll never ever die, and spend eternity with an all loving god.....
got that about right new-man?
sam-stone:
yes, you're right.
What most often overlook is that right now, the person not covered by the shed blood of Jesus is dead (their spirit is dead).
It is your spirit that receives everlasting life. (I know you're thinking of the flesh... not so... those born of the flesh is flesh... those born of the spirit of God is spirit).
given that god will send you to hell for eternal anguish unless you obey his every whim and praise him at every available opportunity, you christians sound just like abused spouses.
he/she really does love me.
he/she doesn't mean to hurt me, it's my fault that he/she hurts me.
if I could only stop doing the things he/she tells me are bad, then he/she wouldn't have to hurt me.
he/she really is a loving person
what an unhealthy relationship you Christians have, and what an unhealthy relationship you drag your children into!
The Bible describes our relationship to God as a loving Father. He chastens us, but then, what loving father witholds discipline from his child?
I am a loving father and I don't threaten my children with eternal damnation.
God doesn't send His children to eternal punishment. He only sends to eternal punishment those whose father is the devil.
THAT is becaue YOU are not judge and Creator of LIFE...YOU are not HOLy and JUST as God is...don't try to cpompare your pitiful self to a Holy God
You believe in the devil too?? LOL!
And who might be the devils father?
I would argue that even the devil himself, a supposed creation of God, does not deserve an eternity of torment. And if you say "Well the devil will not be in torment, he gets to do the tormenting." then I ask "Why?" Why would God create an evil creature who takes pleasure in the torment of others who sins against God worse than any other creation, and he then appoints the devil to what he knows will be his favorite job? The whole premise is silly on its face and bears no greater weight than telling your kids Santa is watching them year round so they better be careful they don't get coal in their stockings.
The torture comes from within..not without..people who REJECt eternal life with God will have no part of it..thus their torture is the anguish of eternity with NO hope peace or joy..since God offered it and people reject it
No loving father would throw their child out of the house the first time they made a mistake and then place a curse on all of their children's future offspring. Loving? Hardly.
Again bad comparison.....yoare a hUMAN..nto a God..not a HOLY and JUST God who si JUDGE...youre not the Creator of life and such....thus using this is a bad example
"YOU are not HOLy and JUST as God is..."
really? who keeps tabs on the ethics of the Abrahamic God. Santa Claus?
who said anything about keeping tabs..its about Gods very NATURE>.he isntthis way cause he FEELS like it..God and the BIble shows this veryclearly
(I was replying to kermit)
neverbeenhappieratheist
Hell is a reflection of God’s punitive wrath. That is, Hell is not designed for correction but as a reflection of God’s ultimate justice.
Like a life sentence given to a convicted serial killer, hell is designed to be a permanent incarceration given to those who refuse to repent of their sins. God’s love offered through His grace for salvation is not unconditional; it depends upon a person’s willingness to repent – and when a person chooses not to repent of their evil ways, God will incarcerate them in the place called Hell.
And Satan will not be administering the punishment, he will himself be punished.
“How can God be a God of love if He sends people to hell for all eternity?” That question can also be asked, “How can God be a God of love if He sends people to heaven who hate him?” Can you imagine anything worse than a sinner having to spend eternity with the one he hated? People go to hell because they choose to go there, that’s what they want, they don’t want God in their life, and all hell does is to crystallize into permanency the way people live their life here on earth. You don’t want Christ now? Then that’s the way that it will be forever. Do you want to live in your sins now and in the consequences of your sins now rather than in the forgiveness of Christ? Then that’s what hell is. You want to be in the kingdom of darkness rather than the kingdom of light, you choose that over God’s dear Son? That’s what hell is. God is a God of love because the Bible says that He’s a God of love, and it has been proven, because He sent His Son to die on the cross for our sins, to save those who would believe – and He calls to all to believe. God sends to hell all of those who reject Him and the loving gift of grace that He offers.”
-John MacArthur
All I did was read the bible and determine that god is anything but loving. If you want the bible to describe a loving god then someone needs to re-write it.
yes..all youdid was a cursory reading..not really looking into what it says and probably skipping around a lot..cause otherwise youd see God is Creator, Holy and JUST...NOT cause he fels that way..it is His VERY Nature
Also, Kermit, I would never compare myself to the Christian god, I am not nearly as immoral as that monster is described as being.
SHOW and prove God is imoral
kermit, You have no evidence of a god. Circular references are useless. Just because you imagine a god a certain way doesn't make it so. If an omnipotent being is going to sort the chaff from the wheat it must be keeping tabs on every second of every person's life – that really is Big Data: 7 billion people times say 60 years average lifespan times 31,536,000 seconds in a non-leap year.
I don't imagine this..it is reality thank you..stop making useless and baseless assertions and assunptions..seciod....you missed the point entirely
I spent my entire life at religious schools where we studied the bible on a daily basis. I know it is hard for you to believe that someone could actually read the bible and come away thinking it is absurd, but trust me it is possible.
Yes..it is possible...because you didn't study much..why do I say such..your very own posts shows IGNORANCE of certain things as I pointed out already.....youre way of thinking is due to misinformation and lack of it
poor Kermit. it's not easy being green.
Justice: 1. just behavior or treatment. "a concern for justice, peace, and genuine respect for people" synonyms: fairness, justness, fair play, fair-mindedness.
I believe that it is impossible to impart an eternal punishment to a non-eternal being for non-eternal crimes and still consider yourself just. There is nothing fair in tormenting your own creation for eternity for their temporary crimes. The only reason a creator would do such a thing is if it derived some sort of pleasure from the torment for it would not be accomplishing anything, for it would no longer be a deterant for the sinner in heII if their is no chance of redemption. The whole concept of burning punishment seems abnormal coming from a God who commanded his people in Leviticus "21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the Lord."
AHH but the sins they do..the crimes are against a ETERNAL God..Don't look at one side of the fence....justice works in this way too in thisworld..we are punished not merely for WHAT the crimeis..but WHO or WHAT it is done against
The problem is you and many religious have made claims for an eternal God who is just in his dispensing of eternal judgement and yet you have as much evidence for God and for an eternal soul that can be punished as you do for girl cooties, which is to say, none at all. I am not making the claim that your cannot possibly exist, i'm making the claim that I see no empirical evidence for your God and thus put no faith in anything you and your ilk claim without evidence.
With that said I have mountains of evidence that shows being kind, generous and loving is the best way to live. Right and wrong are defined by subjective moralities where the subject is human and the pain or pleasure humans derive from their actions or the actions of others. There is no objective morality, no universal absolute on behavior, there is only on and off. While "On" we get to enjoy this planet and attempt to live as long and as happy as we can, after that is just "Off". This makes far more sense than any invented immortal soul that you have to worry about while you live this life, the only one you know exists, at least as much as we can "know" anything.
AS the guy on the front pages of MAD magazine says "What, me worry?" I don't worry abpout my relationship with God or if IM going to hell..I aint going to hell. What do I have to worry about then?
kermit
If you aren't imagining this, you'll have some evidence that you could post. I'm not making useless and baseless assertions and assumptions nor missing the point entirely – you said that a god was creator and that that god would judge its creation. No evidence for a god or that it is the creator but allowing that how would a god judge if not by monitoring every second of every life to compare that life to the criteria it had set?
HOWEVER>.right now the issue is whether Godis a P r I c k as you all claim..or not...not whether he exists...that would be kind of going off tangent..you seem to be arguing that IF such a God exists..he is immoral monster
I have the same information you do, the bible, I however don't read it and decide that if god orders genocide it is moral. Genocide is always immoral and therefore when god orders it god becomes immoral. It seems that you feel that might makes right, but I would disagree with that. I don't feel that god can do whatever he wants just becuase god is god. If god wants to be considered a moral being then god needs to act accordingly. Ordering the death of every man woman and child on the face of the Earth in a flood is not acting morally.
Again youmake it as if God does all things basedon feelings..not his very nature..you gotta do better than that
@Kermit
how do YOU know it's not god's nature?
did your mum or dad tell you? did you read it in an old book?
Seems you need constant reminders..I know God personally..its from the BIble...its all works out...God confirms Himself
I don't care why god did what he did. If god at anytime, for any reason ordered the killing of entire cities then god is immoral. The Old Testament describes exactly that, therefore god is not a moral being. Unless of course you can show me a bible that doesn't have any such stories.
and by what standard do you deem GOD immoral?
Kermi: Why so angry? Why so defensive? Are you that insecure in yourself and your belief that belittling people and treating them like crap makes you feel better about yourself?
I don't really care because while you are here claiming to represent christianity while being hateful and bitter, you are doing the world a favor-you're helping to bury your religion.
WHAT didI say to belittle? IM not angry..justpointing stuff out...IM not bitter or hateful
Oh I don't know, it might be things like "pitiful self" and telling people to stop b/c poor you is offended and sick of it. Trying to get your point across by yelling (using capital letters).
to SOME it is yelling.to me it is CAPITALIZING on a point
In internet speak, it is yelling! You claim to be smart, you should know that. Either that or you're lying about your education and don't know how to form a proper English sentence.
Ah you christards like to twist things to fit your own delusions and here you are doing it again.
apparently you dont get the gist of my message..i said this is how I MYSELF use it ok? some people have accepted it...move on
Apparently you don't care how it comes across. I got the just of your message...ignorant as it is!
whatever..move on...I use capital letter to make a point..not to yell..if you dont like it ignore my posts 🙂 Just dont judge my actions as you did out of ignorance ok?
I judged your actions for what they were. Seems to me that you are the last person to be telling someone not to judge when you do so much of it yourself.
No point is made by 'yelling'.
you are falsely juding my INTENMTS>.just cause it LOOKS like yelling..does NOT mean MY PERSOINAL intent was to yell......thus you judge wrongly....you assumed and nothing more...there are reasons behind actions..MY reason is to CAPITALIZE on points...
The same standard that decided Hitler was immoral when he attempted to commit genocide.
However..Hitler is NOT the Creator..he is nOT God..He is NOT Judge....therefore your argument lacks badly
It's amazing that anyone could believe that tripe thephileo.....
on the other hand, i have heard your logic, so i guess it is not all that surprising
I am consistent I hold god to the same standard as everyone else. I don't care if god is the creator he doesn't then get to kill anyone and everyone he wants and declare it to be moral. Might makes right is in no way a moral position.
BUT that is flawed..again God is Creator....you canno tbe consitent and hold him to same stadard...we are not Gods....we are not Creators....thus you cannot use same standard
"SHOW and prove God is imoral"
punishing people who do not have free will
So people are mindless idiots who are incapable of choosing? nice view of humanity there...
kermit: "SHOW and prove God is imoral"
don't need to. and that wasn't the question. if there is a god as described for the God of Abraham (and I'm not convinced), how can you show that it's ethical? (what do you compare it to to determine whether it's naughy or nice?)
Oh yes..they DO need to...they made a claimn God is imoral..show where he is imoral and prove that what he did is imoral...
kermit, Let's start with arbitrarily turning a woman into a pillar of salt, then we could move on to drowning all life on earth with a few exceptions. When you've explained how those were moral, we'll move on to other examples.
ahhhhh nice dodge..and dance step..as I said..whoever it was that said it MADE a claim...that God was imoral..now they have to SHOW that what was it he did was imoral and HOW did they determine it was imoral...
How is that a dodge? Do you think those are moral acts? Please explain why.
Lets try this again....one made a claim that God did imoral acts..i asked WHICH acts were imoral and HOW they determined it to be imoral....asking me if I thought it was moral and how is not answering MY quesiton..thus it is a dodge...
"I aint going to hell. What do I have to worry about then?"
no one is, kermy.....it is a made up place, just like heaven
"So people are mindless idiots who are incapable of choosing? nice view of humanity there"
As opposed to you view that all humanity are sinners and in need of salvation?
I am just saying what Christian Extrordinare THEPHILEO said. No one is more pious than him. After all, he is a saint (ust ask him)
theo, given that your "loving" sky fairy's "discipline" involves mass-murder and other horrors as punishment even for lesser offences, he would be tried and convicted for human rights abuses by any reasonable modern jury. So no thanks, you can keep your fictional "god" – your nasty jerk in the sky. To yourself. Silently, please.
Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
God's primary characteristic is jealousy.
Jealousy stems from insecurity, which is hardly an attribute one would expect in an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being.
And the "jealousy" described in the Bible is NOT like yours and Oprah's understanding – the Bible describes it as a love for that which is rightfully yours.
NOT necessarily, when one actually looks at the dictionary and find several defintions of jealousy..there IUS good jealousy..that is one of zealous guarding of whatbelongs to you..I am jealous towards my wife....when a man flirst with her...I protect her..she ismy wife...I am her husband...does that mean I go beat up the man or feel bad? NO..Its I proptect hger well being in our relationship..same with God...we belong to God..He does itout of love..not insecurity
@Kermit. do frogs go to heaven too, or just humans?
NO I am consistent. I hold god to the same standard I hold everyone else.
Does that make sense to the logical mind. That God, who spared not His Only Son, so that you would have life, would then turn around and send you to hell.
God sends no one to hell.
The gods of this world – ego, pride, nature, whatever else it is that one's faith and trust is placed in, instead of the shed blood of Jesus, they are the ones who send their "believers" to "hell".
The innocent blood of Jesus was shed for the guilty – all of us.
It is pride that makes a man think he has no need of salvation. It is pride that causes a man to think he knows more than his creator. It is pride that makes a man think he can save himself through his own self-righteousness.
God justifies the ungodly through Jesus. He will qualify you to receive. Come to Jesus as you are, and He will qualify you.
Your sin was transferred to the offering (Jesus) and the righteousness of the lamb (Jesus) was then transferred to you.
God does NOT examine you, but the offering! (Christ Jesus). That's why it's important to know who you have placed your faith and trust in, who your offering/sacrifice is... because it is your sacrifice that will be examined, not you.
and you, a person in the 21st century, can honestly read that cult-speak that you just wrote and not shake your head and think "hang on, what the heck am I doing here?!?!"? You can't look at that fantasy, fairy tale magical voodoo paragraph you just penned and think, "wait a minute, this bears no resemblance to reality, It must be just years of indoctrination making me write this stuff"?
IT DOES bear semblance to reality..we LIVE it
in your mind.
What does not make sense to a logical mind is that an allpowerful god would choose to toeture his son to death to firgive us our sins.
Why didn't he just judge us fairly without all the pain and suffering?
HAHA..if you want THAT then we ALL shall go to hell..that is judging fairly..and theer will bepain and torture cause we REJEct Gods offer
I'm not sure I follow your reasoning –
Are you saying you did want an innocent man to be crucified?
The OPNLY one capable of sufficiently paying for all the sins is a sinless man. WE ourselves cannot do enough to save ourselves
By "WE" I'm sure you mean members of your cult, right? You wouldn't be projecting your delusions onto others, would you?
so many things going on..was that for me? as in the "we?"
So you are saying your god is not all-powerful?
That his only option was to kill someone to forgive us?
Please explain.
See..you seem to be very very forgetful..youalways talk about God being all powerful yet ignore his other attributes...being all powerful doesnot mean going against logic....God is ALSO a JUST God..he cannot change that..no ampunt of power can do that..if God became UNJUST..he ceases to be God.
Nice dodge.
Why did he crucify an innocent man if he didn't have to?
HOW was THAT a dodge? I reasoned it out with you...apparently you cant reason thru this.....YOure right..God did not HAVE to do it..but His LOVE compelled Him to do so.and again..He is JUST...He cannot change..sins have to be paid for..period
Was god not capable of saying "I forgive everyone for their sins"? That seems a lot easier than the whole sending a part of himself to Earth for 30 some odd years just to be executed.
Again God is a JUST God..he cannot change that fact..sins are to be paid for.....
Did anyone else type "WE" in this thread?
I fhe HAD to do it, then he is not all powerful and we have yet one more flaw in the bible and one more reason to doubt it.
The flaw is your understanding of what all powerful means and what it does
Your flaw is having blind faith.
the bible is fiction. Open your eyes and see.
I have blind faith? tell me..faith in what..Gods existance? is that what you think?
Alias
"What does not make sense to a logical mind is that an allpowerful god would choose to toeture his son to death to firgive us our sins. Why didn't he just judge us fairly without all the pain and suffering?"
Alias, you've studied this stuff more than me but I always assumed the point was like this....
If I let someone punch me in the face just once there are possibilities of what I can expect.
a.) The guy who punched me will shrug it off and move on
b.) The guy would try for a second shot to knock me out
c.) The guy might take a step back, look at me sitting there all messed up and bleeding and think, "Ok maybe I am kind of a butt hole. Sorry about your jaw."
The guy who got punched would be taking a sucker punch hoping that "c" would be the outcome.
Now ask a hard question like, why has no surgeon ever cut into someone's soul by accident.
Randy: Stan! Stan!
Stan: Dad, not now!
Randy: Stan, I've been sent here...to give you THIS. [holds up the Sword of 1000 Truths] This sword will completely drain his mana!
Stan: How did you get that?!
Randy: No time! Just take it! Here!
[long pause]
Randy: Um, how do you hand items from one player to another?
Stan: Bring up your Inventory screen, Ctrl-I!
Randy: Okay...
Cartman: Stan, what the hell are you doing?!
Stan: [receives sword] I got it!
[The Rogue kills Randy's character]
Stan: Dad!
Randy: (weakly) Staaaan...
Stan: [to The Rogue] You killed my father. [strikes him] YAHHH!
Cartman: His shield and armor spells are down! Attack!
[Kenny shoots Jenkins with an arrow; Kyle brings him down with a fireball; Cartman approaches)
Cartman: Looks like you're about to get pwned. RAAAHHH! [smashes The Rogue's head in with his hammer]
God is in the math. Do the math, find more answers.
Galileo Galilei — 'Mathematics is the language with which God has written the universe.'
There is no way to know if he actually believed that or just didn't want to get executed.
I think he was courageous and said what he believed. And that almost cost him his life. But he felt it was a truth worth dieing for.
Not really, because when called in front of the inquisitor he claimed that he no longer believed that Earth moves around the Sun. Sounds like someone who just told people what they wanted to hear to stay alive to me.
"Who would dare assert that we know all there is to be known?"
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."
Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
I have evidence that Bob usually doesn't know what he is talking about. And he acts like a robot.
He is going through his "Superior Atheist" phase... and will grow out of it soon.... we all hope.
Nasty Christian poster Dalahast, apparently formerly known as AE or other handles, is being typically insulting and arrogant, as befits his hateful and racist doctrine. Regarding evidence, what he and others of his cult always fail to produce is evidence for their bizarre beliefs. So, evidence, please, Dalahast/AE, and less of the insults next time too, please.
Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
http://aafwaterloo.wordpress.com/2011/09/18/your-superiority-complex-annoys-me/
They strut about confidently, basking in their own self-glory, proud that they have shaken free of the shackles of the intellectual inferiority caused by being a person of faith. Yet, they fail to realize that they have done no such thing. One is not granted a special place simply because they are able to see the follies of faith. It is very possible, as has been demonstrated, that one can lack adherence to religion but still subscribe to ideas driven by blind faith.
Then why did god make so many people bad at math?
You will have to do the math to find out.
Because math doesn't exist. It's just one way of describing the natural world.
What are the facts? Again and again and again — what are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget what "the stars foretell," avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable "verdict of history" — what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!
– Robert Heinlein
"Never let the facts get in the way of a good story" – Mark Twain
"Never let the truth get in the way of making a little coin." – Religion
Acts 17:24-28
"24 The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’"
All Scripture Is From:
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Copyright © 1960, 1962, 1963, 1968, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1975, 1977, 1995 by The Lockman Foundation
http://www.biblegateway.com/
24: So good call there. No more church.
25: Except constant adulation and money
26: Out of Africa
27: He is as close as your imagination
28: Unless you don’t kiss his ass, then you will burn, but he loves you
All Scripture Is From: A public toilet next to a turd.
"then you will burn, but he loves you"
---------
Just an observation, but so many people have made the mistake of thinking that God loves ALL men equally, whether they are His children or not.... Charles Finney had this to say about that, and I can also list scripture about God's hate...
"God is not angry merely against the sin abstracted from the sinner, but against the sinner himself. Some persons have labored hard to set up this ridiculous and absurd abstraction, and would fain make it appear that God is angry at sin, yet not at the sinner. He hates the theft, but loves the thief. He abhors adultery, but is pleased with the adulterer. Now this is supreme nonsense. The sin has no moral character apart from the sinner. The act is nothing apart from the actor. The very thing that God hates and disapproves is not the mere event—the thing done in distinction from the doer; but it is the doer himself. It grieves and displeases Him that a rational moral agent, under His government, should array himself against his own God and Father, against all that is right and just in the universe. This is the thing that offends God. The sinner himself is the direct and the only object of his anger."
Just an observation, but so many people have made the mistake of believing in God.
UD,
If you claim that belief in God is a mistake, then you must offer evidence to support. Today, I've been offering evidence to the affirmative position from causality and contingency, obtaining logical necessity for the existence of a creator God.
What is your evidence against the existence of a creator God?
Bear in mind, that if you claim that there is no creator, no first cause, then you must first explain how a causal chain can be infinitely long, given that an infinitely long causal chain can not explain how the causal chain began to exist in the first place.
The Creator hypothesis falls into the same loop of infinite regression.
What created the Creator and so on, ad infinitum.
To place an arbitrary cap on the causal chain and call it God doesnt' address the issue any more than calling that cap the Big Bang.
Actually, no I don’t. You need to provide proof for that which you claim exists but for which there is no evidence. I cannot prove a negative. You have offered zero evidence. That is a lie. My answer to first cause? I have no idea and neither does anyone else.
You haven't offered any evidence, you have, however, made a bunch of baseless claims.
"The Creator hypothesis falls into the same loop of infinite regression.
What created the Creator and so on, ad infinitum.
To place an arbitrary cap on the causal chain and call it God doesnt' address the issue any more than calling that cap the Big Bang."
----------–
The existence of a causal chain necessitates a beginning. When we see the physical universe as a single, long causal chain, the "cap" if you will is logically necessary. The first cause then is not a part of the physical universe, since it was the cause of it. (because if you say that the cause was itself physical, then you're back to infinite regression) Therefore since the first cause is not physical, it must be supernatural.
What do you claim is the "cap?" The first cause? (knowing that causal chains cannot be infinite)
So you admit then that a first cause must necessarily exist?
Well, since the first cause is the reason for the existence of the physical universe, so you also agree that it must also, by necessity, NOT be a part of the physical universe?
The "super" natural does not exist. If it exists, it is natural. Common sense.
@theophileo
Nobody knows what is behind the curtain. Get over it or look for it, but don't lie about it.
"Nobody knows what is behind the curtain. Get over it or look for it, but don't lie about it."
-------------
You are attempting to argue from the lesser to the greater, but it doesn't work here. Just because many may not know, that does not preclude that NO ONE knows... All I have done today is to logically argue that the first cause of our physical universe could not itself be a part of that physical universe, otherwise we enter into infinite regression. It must needs be supernatural in that respect, for no "physical" explanation exists.
"Therefore since the first cause is not physical, it must be supernatural."
Is dark matter and dark energy "physical"? Why would the universe have to be one long causal chain? Could it not be more of a mobius strip moving in and out of what we know of as the physical universe and a dark matter state? Could the evidence we have leading back to the singularity be that rip between dimensions where dark matter exploded into a physical universe?
"If you claim that belief in God is a mistake, then you must offer evidence to support."
I only claim that I have seen no empirical evidence of anything supernatural, ever. So far no human in all of history has been able to provide a shred of empirical evidence proving anything supernatural. We have had many many examples of things we believed were "supernatural" but when investigated we found out that it was really just some super nature.
It takes no faith to know that so far no religion has provided even the tiniest shred of empirical evidence for any of their divine claims. It does however require massive amounts of faith to believe their supernatural claims without any evidence.
@ophileo
No, not “many may not know”…NOBODY knows. Not you, not me, not anyone. Your arguments are far from logical (perhaps delusional is the word you were searching for). Now you are making the classic argument that if we don’t understand something, a god did it. Good, keep that up. God diminishes a little more each time we discover something new.
The argument keeps coming up that there had to be a starting point for everything. It all had to come from something, there had to be a beginning blah blah blah. The problem with jumping to god is that there had to be a beginning to god for that logic to be consistent.
If god didn’t have to have a beginning, then why did matter have to have a beginning?
Isn’t it just as fitting with the laws of nature to acknowledge that you cannot create or destroy matter and energy? All it can do is change forms. So the fact that it is here now means that it has always been here?
Why is it more logical to say god had no beginning than to say matter had no beginning?
@ Alias:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_argument_against_naturalism
I would guess it's because those same people cannot comprehend that time and space is infinite and non-linear.
"time and space is infinite and non-linear."
-------
I've never claimed to be an expert on such things, so would you please give me a Reader's Digest version of how these statements step out of the relm of mathematics and into the lens of observation?
No...
'Realm' not relm
Sorry, I'm not a very good speller... English is my first language.
So, are you saying that the idea of the infinite and non-linear characteristics of time and space exist ONLY in the REALM of mathematics, and not in observable reality? Or are you saying that you can't or won't give me an example of how this idea has been observed?
As I said, I'm no expert on this sort of thing and really wouldn't know where to start looking for an answer here.
I know you are purposely being ignorant, but I'll throw you a bone. Google: Carl Sagan or Neil deGrasse Tyson.
Or you might try reading (I know you won't) 'A Brief History of Time' by this little known author called Stephen Hawking.
"I know you are purposely being ignorant, but I'll throw you a bone. Google: Carl Sagan or Neil deGrasse Tyson.
Or you might try reading (I know you won't) 'A Brief History of Time' by this little known author called Stephen Hawking."
----------
Atheists tell me all the time that they can be moral without God. Is this an example? Because if it is I do hope that you don't teach your children to belittle those who don't agree with you.
Really? Becuase I considered that a simple statement of fact. After reading your posts it seems to sum you up perfectly.
"After reading your posts it seems to sum you up perfectly."
---------–
So then tell me – avoiding infinite regression, how can a physical ent.ity explain the cause of the physical universe?
I have no idea. However, that doesn't mean I am going to believe in any gods.
"I have no idea. However, that doesn't mean I am going to believe in any gods."
---------–
But you are forced into "believing" in the existence of at least "a" God by the very nature of the argument. If there can be no way to explain a physical cause to the physical universe, then something supernatural, or non-physical is the cause. Whether you choose to follow that creator's dictates is another matter altogether.
I am perfectly o.k. with the concept of a god who set things in motion and hasn't been seen or heard from since. I find the Christian god, as described in the Bible, to be about as likely to exist as Bigfoot.
Circular arguments get you nowhere...
Your inept attempts at trying to 'catch' an atheist in some kind of logic loop, while initially humorous, I fear has become tedious and boring... moving on to someone funnier... `LET
However, until some concrete evidence is presented that proves beyond any reasonable doubt that god exists I will continue to not believe in any gods. Basically, even if what you are saying is true it would still leave an infinite number of gods to choose from.
There is no need to explain the origin of the universe. "We don't know" is a far better answer than "Some god did it."
The argument is based on the observation that all physical enti.ties are contingent. If they are contingent, then they are not eternal.
“The dependent character of all physical states, together with the completeness of the series of dependencies underlying the existence of any given physical state, logically implies at least one self-existent, and therefore non-physical, state of being: a state of being, or an ent.ity, radically different from those that make up the physical or "natural" world.
It is demonstrably absurd that there should be a self-sufficient physical universe, if by that we mean an all-inclusive totality of ent.ities and events of the familiar or scientific physical variety, unless we are prepared to treat the universe itself as having an essentially different type of being from the physical:—which then just concedes the point of the existence of the supernatural.” – Dallas Willard
Newtonian laws were not written to make a statement on the origins of the universe, but rather were observations of the behavior of matter and energy within closed systems.
Then by this rationale, this universe must end, aka it cannot last forever.
Do you have any scientific reason why all the matter and energy around us must become nothing?
Yes, according to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, Entropy is increasing and is inversely proportional to the total usable energy available, increasing disorder. The universe is winding down to a state of equilibrium where entropy is at its maximum and the total usable energy at zero, hence death.
No Vic,
That law says it will all still be here, just in a different state.
It also assumes a closed system.
Sorry, I did not have a chance to follow up earlier.
Entropy does not address the issue of existence and non-existence; however, it proves that the universe is "finite."
Vic ......
I'm not sure that law says what you think it says.
"Then by this rationale, this universe must end, aka it cannot last forever."
-----------
That is the Biblical scenario, yes.
"Do you have any scientific reason why all the matter and energy around us must become nothing?"
---------–
Scientific reason?? No. But once again, the Biblical reasoning is because all of creation has been tainted by sin, and because of that, the heavens and the earth must be re-made.
That may be the point I was missing.
If I am an atheist then it is reasonable for me to accept that everything in this universe has always been here and always will be, even thought it could be changing form.
From a christian point of view, god created everything and he will destroy it.
"If I am an atheist then it is reasonable for me to accept that everything in this universe has always been here and always will be, even thought it could be changing form.
From a christian point of view, god created everything and he will destroy it."
-----------
That sounds right. The kicker though is that neither position can ultimately be proven true until it is observed to be so.
"The problem with jumping to god is that there had to be a beginning to god for that logic to be consistent."
No. Not if God is eternal.
Then why can't the universe or energy be eternal? If you can claim something is eternal with no evidence to back it up so can anyone else.
Go ahead. I support atheists, as long as they don't preach hate.
The Universe is eternal. God(s) only last a couple of thousand years at best.
Thanks for sharing your faith with me.
Then please explain how an infinitely long causal chain can exist when an infinitely long causal chain cannot explain how it came to exist as a causal chain in the first place...
Didn't we just cover this a few post ago?
Alias,
Yeah, but getting die-hards to admit even the POSSIBILITY of the supernatural origins of the physical universe is like pulling teeth. Even when there is no way to explain a physical cause while avoiding infinite regression.
My new second favorite self-quote of the day...
"Your inept attempts at trying to 'catch' an atheist in some kind of logic loop, while initially humorous, I fear has become tedious and boring... moving on to someone funnier... " ~LET
If space and time "began" to exist please explain how something "caused" time....before there was time. Before time...there was no "time".
Cause and effect require time.
Not every culture believes in the existence of time, some feel that time is an illusion.
Let me add to that if something existed once, who knows when, and will exist again, (who knows when) that is not the same as not existing at all. That thing just doesn't exist now.
There are those who think that life is nothing left to chance,
A host of holy horrors to direct our aimless dance.
A planet of playthings,
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive.
"The stars aren't aligned
Or the gods are malign"-
Blame is better to give than receive.
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill;
I will choose a path that's clear-
I will choose Free Will.
There are those who think that they were dealt a losing hand,
The cards were stacked against them- they weren't born in lotus-land.
All preordained-
A prisoner in chains-
A victim of venomous fate.
Kicked in the face,
You can't pray for a place
In heaven's unearthly estate.
You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice.
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill;
I will choose a path that's clear-
I will choose Free Will.
Each of us-
A cell of awareness-
Imperfect and incomplete.
Genetic blends
With uncertain ends
On a fortune hunt that's far too fleet.
But it was only a fantasy...
The wall was too high as you can see...
No matter how he tried, he could not break free...
And the worms ate into his brain.
is there anybody out there?
I got elastic bands keepin my shoes on.
Got those swollen hand blues.
Got thirteen channels of sh.it on the T.V. to choose from.
I've got electric light.
And I've got second sight.
And amazing powers of observation.
And that is how I know
When I try to get through
On the telephone to you
There'll be nobody home.
Ooooh, Babe. When I pick up the phone...
There's still nobody home.
And when they've given you their all
Some stagger and fall, after all it's not easy
Banging your heart against some mad bugger's wall.