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February 26th, 2014
03:12 PM ET

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  1. SeaVik

    I hereby propose a new term: Non-atheist.

    When it comes to this debate, there are really only two meaningful groups of people: atheists and non-atheists. It really doesn't matter what kind of non-atheist one might be. If you're a non-atheist, you believe in something far-fetched for which there is absolutely no evidence to support.

    Since we are all born atheists by default, we should be asking all non-atheists why they chose to become non-atheists. Unfortunately, most didn't choose – they were brain-washed before they were old enough to choose. Perhaps if they realize they never made a choice to move from their natural state, a light might finally go on...

    February 27, 2014 at 1:55 pm |
    • Apple Bush

      They always have lies queued up for that question...."God spoke to me and He entered my heart...." yada yada

      February 27, 2014 at 2:01 pm |
      • kudlak

        They could simply be wrong without consciously lying, right?

        When I was a believer I really did believe all that stuff, and I would have known that you were wrong to call me a lier.

        February 27, 2014 at 7:01 pm |
    • Dalahäst

      Not everyone is having an atheist vs believers debate.

      There are actually non-atheists that are on your side in regards to this issue. So your new terms have some serious flaws.

      Nobody is born as a superior atheist. We are born with no knowledge of God. But also no knowledge of science, charity, love and reason.

      February 27, 2014 at 2:08 pm |
      • SeaVik

        Without knowledge of the man-made concept of god, one can't be anything other than an atheist. You have to at least give serious credence to the posibility of the existence of a god to be a non-atheist. Babies can't do that.

        When said, "this debate", I was referring to what 90%+ of the posts are about on here, regardless of the specific article: belief vs. atheism.

        February 27, 2014 at 2:23 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          I thought you were talking in regards to the article.

          If I have to choose a side between atheist and non-atheist based on your definition, I choose neither.

          Too often I side with atheists on issues. Or take issue with non-atheists. It wouldn't be fair to try and label me as either.

          Besides, atheist just means you don't believe in God. That is it. You don't even have to believe your baby theory to be an atheist. Some atheists refute that line of logic you are using.

          February 27, 2014 at 2:26 pm |
        • SeaVik

          Claiming to be an atheist doesn't make one right 100% of the time.

          Babies are atheists unless you think they believe in a god. That's not a theory, that's a fact. Anyone who disputes that is wrong, whether they're an atheist or not.

          You either are an atheist or you're not. You're not. Therefore, you're a non-atheist. And it's my term, so don't try to tell me what it means! 🙂

          February 27, 2014 at 2:33 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          Babies Also Do Not Believe That There Is No God

          http://www.strangenotions.com/are-babies-atheists/

          February 27, 2014 at 2:50 pm |
        • SeaVik

          An atheist is one who does not believe in a god. Babies do not believe in a god.

          One does not have to actively believe there is no god to be an atheist.

          February 27, 2014 at 3:00 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          Babies also are self-centered and poop their pants.

          February 27, 2014 at 3:05 pm |
        • kudlak

          SeaVik
          The larger point is that babies don't have the mental capacity to believe in gods. That puts them in the same category as your pet kitten and rocks, which is why this is a pretty lame argument.

          February 27, 2014 at 7:07 pm |
        • kudlak

          SeaVik
          Yes, people have to be taught about God. What God is, what he can do, that he is real, that other gods are not real, that he communicates with people and what to expect as communication with God. All of these things are taught to people in an effort to make them Christians. None of it is actually intuitive, or obvious. All of it is taught.

          What seems apparent to us is that these people are taught to create their own evidence for God's existence, just as some of the folks who believe in reincarnation are taught to interpret the sensation of déjà vu as evidence of their past lives flashing in their memories.

          February 27, 2014 at 7:22 pm |
    • ausphor

      SeaVik
      As a Deist and my friends the agnostics and the spiritual but not religious all would prefer the none religious handle. Non atheist throws us into a quasi religious state where we do not belong, non religious, please.

      February 27, 2014 at 2:14 pm |
      • Dalahäst

        I like the term "nones" when I was agnostic. But sometimes it sounds like "nuns", which gets confusing.

        February 27, 2014 at 2:15 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Oh my, do you need the link to the on-line dictionary also?
          Agnostic only defines knowledge, not belief. So now you're what...a Gnostic Theist? You know for sure there is a god?

          February 27, 2014 at 2:57 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          I was "a person who held that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience."

          I was an agnostic. I identified as one.

          I still am agnostic about some things.

          http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/agnostic

          February 27, 2014 at 3:01 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          typo may have cofused you:

          I liked* the term "nones" when I was agnostic (many years ago).

          February 27, 2014 at 3:03 pm |
      • SeaVik

        If you saw the posts on the recent article about Spiritual But Not Religious people, you would have seen that most atheists don't conider that view to be any more sane than religion. The question we're debating here for the most part is, "Do you believe in far-fetched things for which you have zero evidence?"

        The answer to that question is "yes" for religious people, Deists and Spiritual but Not Religious people and "I'm not sure" for agnostics. For atheists, it's "no".

        February 27, 2014 at 2:28 pm |
        • joey3467

          I have always wondered how people don't know what they believe. It seems to me that you either believe in a god or you don't. You may not know if what you believe is true or not, but you know whether or not you believe in god

          February 27, 2014 at 2:34 pm |
        • ausphor

          SkyVic
          Seems you are out of touch with modern Deists. I would encourage you to go to Deism.com to catch up. Deism is a recognition of a universal creative force greater than that demonstrated by mankind, supported by personal observation of laws and designs in nature and the universe, perpetuated and validated by the innate ability of human reason coupled with the rejection of claims made by individuals and organized religions of having received divine revelation.
          Hardly hocus pocus. I firmly anticipate science will be able in the future come to grips with how the universe was created, a proven theory will probably equate to a Deity.

          February 27, 2014 at 2:51 pm |
        • ausphor

          Sorry meant SeaVic, sky fairy made me do it!!

          February 27, 2014 at 2:55 pm |
    • igaftr

      non-atheist is a double negative isn't it?

      So it would be aatheist. Like an aardvark (which in this case would be dvark then...so that doesn't make sense either....I'm so confused...nevermind)

      February 27, 2014 at 2:27 pm |
      • SeaVik

        Yes, I suppose it is. But I'm not aware of any term that is the same as a non-atheist. Theist doesn't include agnostics, for example.

        February 27, 2014 at 2:29 pm |
        • igaftr

          pagan, or the more colorful heathen. Infidel, heretic are commonly used. Some claim spawn of satan ( as if your are on gods side or satans side), iconoclast, adiamorphic, undogmatic...

          There are many more....a rose by any other name to qoute the bard....

          February 27, 2014 at 2:43 pm |
  2. Heaven Sent

    The atheists on this blog pick up the smoothest stones on the beach and skip them willy nilly on God’s ocean and then declare there is no God. See how far you can throw your rocks without Jesus guiding your hand prideful non-believers. My camel-tie sat on an ant hill during the making of this post. Open your heart and let Jesus in or fry for eternity.

    Amen.

    February 27, 2014 at 1:20 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      I hope it wasn't a fire ant hill...ouch!

      February 27, 2014 at 1:22 pm |
      • doobzz

        Yeah, the poor ants.

        February 27, 2014 at 1:27 pm |
    • SeaVik

      I love how he always includes one sentence in the middle that makes a little bit of sense. I hope the ants were sleeping.

      February 27, 2014 at 1:28 pm |
      • Heaven Sent

        Atheists are carnal beings, always thinking they are greater than Jesus who loves them. Put down you coffee can and collect the Lords sand with your heart. My 12-year-old daughter quit smoking at the table. Trust in God now or your dried up dusty bones will cook on satan’s grill.

        Amen.

        February 27, 2014 at 1:35 pm |
      • Sungrazer

        "He" is very likely Apple Bush.

        February 27, 2014 at 1:36 pm |
    • ddeevviinn

      Sorry, you will never be able to top " we're eating out on the porch tonight, my teenage daughter got paid in cash" line. That was priceless. A sheer stroke of genius.

      February 27, 2014 at 1:38 pm |
      • Heaven Sent

        Christians have to come on these articles to teach atheists the Truth of Jesus Christ. He who loves you and does not want you to suffer. My camel-toe is home to a litter of kittens but the ants are an issue. Bow to Jesus and be carnal no more.

        Amen.

        February 27, 2014 at 1:44 pm |
        • ddeevviinn

          Honestly, it is more than a little disturbing to me that I find your iconoclastic sacrilege so humorous.

          February 27, 2014 at 2:06 pm |
    • Truth Be Told

      Amen, Heaven Sent. Athiest do waste the best stones (their time) by skipping them willy nilly on God's ocean. If we were waiting for them to do any good in the world Willy would never have been set free to live out his life as He intended. Amen.

      February 27, 2014 at 2:04 pm |
  3. Apple Bush

    An atheist who is in the closet and lying about being an atheist should be criticized. It is time for all the lying atheists who go to church, lie at work and to their families and friends to stand up and be accounted for. This simple gesture will help the atheist cause more than anything else. More than organizations, rallies, CPAC booths or hating on the Christian bigots. Get real atheists; stand up and be counted.

    February 27, 2014 at 1:14 pm |
    • joey3467

      Sounds good, but if my boss found out I would probably be out of a job.

      February 27, 2014 at 1:16 pm |
      • Apple Bush

        I am saying if it comes up in conversation, don't lie. Be proud of who you are and what you believe (or don't believe).

        February 27, 2014 at 1:28 pm |
    • igaftr

      Most of my friends admit they do not believe in god, at least not the christian version, but will not say anything to their families because of the repercussions. They admit it to me, since they know I am an atheist, but believers instantly see it as an attack on them.

      So much for treat others the way you want to be treated.

      February 27, 2014 at 1:21 pm |
      • Apple Bush

        Yes, that is exactly what I am talking about. Atheists must have some balls and stand up to society and say we are here. Right next to you. We are your co-workers and your family. Deal with it. If we want the discrimination to stop for all minorities (yes I am saying atheism is a minority in this example) then atheists must do their part and by honest people. Put your money where your mouth is.

        February 27, 2014 at 1:25 pm |
        • igaftr

          It just demonstrates to me the basic hypocisy of the average "Love thy neighbor" and "Treat others as you would be treated" christians.

          The minister at a local Chemical Dependancy clinic jokes with me telling me I am the most christian person he knows, and he knows I am an atheist. I don't have the heart to tell him that is insulting to me.

          February 27, 2014 at 1:31 pm |
        • igaftr

          Just to clarify, I volunteer at the clinic...not a patient.

          February 27, 2014 at 1:32 pm |
        • Heaven Sent

          igaftr, are you out of the closet otherwise? With family and friends?

          February 27, 2014 at 1:36 pm |
        • Apple Bush

          igaftr, he is the exact person that NEEDS to know you are an atheist and a good human being. We have to teach and gain acceptance. There is risk but nothing gets accomplished without risk. I hide my atheism from no one anymore.

          However, I am still uncomfortable wearing atheist gear in public. I just feel like people are staring....

          February 27, 2014 at 1:39 pm |
        • igaftr

          Never in the closet. They asked my parent to not bring me back to sunday school when I was six, because they could not answer my questions. It did not make any sense to me, and still does not.

          My parent stopped going to church at that point. When I was 7, I got in trouble in school for not saying the Pledge of allegience, due to the offensive phrase....until my father went and straightened out the school.

          February 27, 2014 at 1:42 pm |
        • igaftr

          AB
          "atheist gear" LOL.
          Like the absense of a cross or the absence of a bible?

          February 27, 2014 at 1:47 pm |
        • Apple Bush

          igaftr, I have a similar story. I bet a lot of us do. For the young atheist, it seems like it starts at church. Church does not make sense to us so we ask questions. Our questions cannot be answered by believers. We leave the church.

          February 27, 2014 at 1:49 pm |
        • Apple Bush

          igaftr

          I was thinking more funny atheist shirts and ball caps....but yeah....

          February 27, 2014 at 1:51 pm |
        • commonsensed01

          Wait. wait! Are you telling me this green frock, pointed hat and six finger gloves are not required atheist apparel? That's not what the saleslady said to me down at Atheists'R'Us.

          February 27, 2014 at 4:53 pm |
    • Sungrazer

      It is not as easy as you make it out to be. Lives can be completely disrupted. Let it be a personal choice. We don't have to force every single closet atheist to come out.

      February 27, 2014 at 1:33 pm |
      • Apple Bush

        I disagree. Grow a pair and be who you are. Otherwise none of us have a right to bitch about believers. They don't hide.

        February 27, 2014 at 1:54 pm |
        • Sungrazer

          Stop being a bully. You are not in the shoes of all of the world's closet atheists. You are not in a position to tell anyone what is best for them.

          February 27, 2014 at 2:49 pm |
  4. joey3467

    The fact that Brewer didn't just come out and tell everyone she would veto the law before in even passed leaves me with very little respect for her.

    February 27, 2014 at 12:47 pm |
    • igaftr

      I'm just amzed that it passed in the first place. Inconceivable.
      I wonder how many passed it to please their const!tuants knowing it would either get vetoed or struck down by SCOTUS, passing the buck in essence.

      February 27, 2014 at 12:51 pm |
      • joey3467

        Since there is no way to know, I say assume the worst about anyone and everyone who voted for the Bill.

        February 27, 2014 at 12:55 pm |
        • igaftr

          You've got a point. If they were for it, shame on them, and if they did not agree and didn't say anything, also shame on them.

          February 27, 2014 at 12:59 pm |
        • joey3467

          Yes, it obviously won't happen but every single person who voted for the bill should be out of a job when they come up for reelection.

          February 27, 2014 at 1:13 pm |
  5. Doc Vestibule

    Relevant Onion Story:

    Claiming it is “impossible” to get him to consider different points of view, exasperated acquaintances of local man Kyle Dunham told reporters Wednesday that the 34-year-old is completely unwilling to listen to even a single argument as to why ho.mose.xuality is an abomination.

    Sources familiar with the account manager’s maddeningly rigid beliefs said that no matter how patiently and logically they present the extensive evidence demonstrating that gays and lesbians are systematically destroying society, the narrow-minded Dunham simply tunes them out.

    “You try to have a rational conversation with him in which you carefully explain, point by point, how the Bible reveals that hom.ose.xuality is abhorrent and dangerous, and his eyes just glaze over,” said neighbor Alex Richardson, who told reporters he has never met anyone in his life so resistant to facts that contradicted his preconceived ideas. “Even when I bring up something basic that most informed people agree on—like how a man who lies down with another man is condemned to eternal hellfire—he just shakes his head.”

    http://www.theonion.com/articles/closeminded-man-not-even-willing-to-hear-out-argum,35379/

    February 27, 2014 at 12:15 pm |
    • snuffleupagus

      That was great, Doc.

      February 27, 2014 at 12:40 pm |
    • Lucifer's Evil Twin

      I doubt our local Christian loons will understand the satire

      February 27, 2014 at 12:40 pm |
  6. Doris

    Catholic League President Bill Donohue debates the merits of gay marriage with CNN's Chris Cuomo
    (CNN video):

    "Marriage is not about love"

    That's right – in Uganda, it's about hate and getting thrown in jail......

    February 27, 2014 at 12:00 pm |
  7. Dalahäst

    I love atheists. And most are not bigots.

    But some are. And those bigots need to be opposed.

    February 27, 2014 at 11:40 am |
    • lunchbreaker

      How about we just say bigots should be oppossed?

      February 27, 2014 at 11:44 am |
      • Dalahäst

        Yes. But, unfortunately, a lot of people hold double standards. And they oppose religious bigotry. But completely ignore anti-religious bigotry. All in the name of "logic and reason".

        It is a double standard I'm trying to bring to light. If you shed light on bigots, they run.

        February 27, 2014 at 11:47 am |
        • commonsensed01

          Okay, I'll bite. What are the atheist double standards you talk about?

          February 27, 2014 at 11:57 am |
        • Dalahäst

          Most atheists do not display double-standards. It is a flaw that can be present in other people. Especially extremists and zealots.

          One double standard I've seen on this blog: criticizing me for things they do, too.

          February 27, 2014 at 11:59 am |
        • ddeevviinn

          Oh, you've noticed that?

          February 27, 2014 at 12:05 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          Yes.

          Even other atheists have noticed and criticized them. The voice of reason will prevail over them. Trust me.

          February 27, 2014 at 12:09 pm |
        • ausphor

          Dala...
          You poor guy, shouldn't you have Stockholm Syndrome by now? Nothing you post can be taken seriously since it varies so much from day to day. Why don't come out and tell us what you believe, was it the same belief you thought you had yesterday?

          February 27, 2014 at 12:27 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          You really don't have that much room to criticize me. I know you like to. But, you should probably focus on yourself.

          I'm just opposing bigots. If you are not a bigot, I'm not talking about you.

          February 27, 2014 at 12:33 pm |
        • snuffleupagus

          Dala says: "Trust me." HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. When you can prove that your god exists, maybe, just maybe I'll consider it.

          February 27, 2014 at 12:34 pm |
        • ausphor

          Change that to persecution complex, I don't think anyone has actually kidnapped you. You may have misplaced your mind and I am sure if anyone found it they would want to be rid of it as quickly as possible.

          February 27, 2014 at 12:40 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          You sure do think about me a lot.

          February 27, 2014 at 12:42 pm |
        • ddeevviinn

          " Reason will prevail"

          Obviously, you are a glass half full kind of guy. Unfortunately, I'm both a realist and pragmatist by nature, reason seems to be a commodity that is not well accepted here.

          February 27, 2014 at 12:45 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          I know.

          But, most atheists are reasonable people. I have faith that their voice will prevail.

          This is interesting:

          http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2013/03/04/whatever-happened-to-new-atheism/

          As atheist writer Douglas Murray recently noted, after sitting alongside Dawkins in a debate: “The more I listened to Dawkins and his colleagues, the more the nature of what has gone wrong with their argument seemed clear. Religion was portrayed as a force of unremitting awfulness, a poisoned root from which no good fruit could grow. It seems to me the work not of a thinker but of any balanced observer to notice that this is not the case. A new … dogma has emerged. And the argument has stalled.”

          February 27, 2014 at 12:49 pm |
        • hotairace

          I'll take Dalahazz more seriously when I see it take on all bigots.

          February 27, 2014 at 12:46 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          I usually oppose Salero. But he never responds, back.

          Can you point out some other bigots?

          Also, you are kind of a bigot. So I'll take you on.

          February 27, 2014 at 12:50 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          devin, more reason to optimistic:

          Rather, New Atheism is in decline because more atheists see the social benefits of religion. Evolutionary psychologist Jonathan Haidt argued in The Righteous Mind that human groups practising moralistic religions would have had huge advantages over those that didn’t. For Haidt, religion binds us to the group and blinds us to the point of view of outsiders, which explains both its unfortunate sectarianism and also its incredible strength.

          Even to non-believers:

          the argument that religion is a damaging parasite seems implausible.
          – In their everyday lives people see that atheism does not explain the fundamental questions and a godless world doesn’t make us happier or even more questioning.
          – The popularity of the Sunday Assembly, an “atheist church” in Islington,
          – or Alain de Botton’s “10 commandments for atheists”, reflect the growing belief in secular Britain that religion is not just a beneficial thing but perhaps an essential one.

          Perhaps that is why New Atheism is as dead as Nietzsche.

          – http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2013/03/04/whatever-happened-to-new-atheism/

          February 27, 2014 at 12:53 pm |
        • SeaVik

          Wow, The Catholic Herald has proclaimed "new atheism" (which they made up) to be dead since obviously, atheists can see the everyday benefits of religion.

          Uh...no.

          February 27, 2014 at 1:17 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          http://www.ex-christian.net/blog/179/entry-833-the-failure-of-new-atheism/

          February 27, 2014 at 1:20 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          "Virtually everything I say here has been backed up by mountains of evidence acc.umulated by psychologists and social scientists over the years. Yet since the times of Plato, rationalists have insisted that we simply pursue what is "rational" and what can be justified by logic. It's always been a problematic exercise. There are axioms: things that can't be logically justified, even if they can't even be coherently denied. There are ideas like love or compassion that often offer little evolutionary benefit, but are pursued regardless. And there is the simple fact that often we get along best, not when we consciously try to arbiter our differences using some supposed common ground, but when we recognize that there often is no common ground on which to arbitrate our differences at all, and we simply suppress those differences and emphasize our commonalities instead."

          http://www.ex-christian.net/blog/179/entry-833-the-failure-of-new-atheism/

          February 27, 2014 at 1:26 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          "What distinguishes the newer atheist is his admission that non-believers can be just as immoral as believers. Rejecting religion is no sure path to virtue; it is more likely to lead to complacent self-regard, or ideological arrogance."

          http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/8885481/after-the-new-atheism/

          February 27, 2014 at 1:28 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          "“New Atheism” is old news. Enter “New, New Atheism”: the next generation, with its more spiritual brand of non-belief, and its ambition to build an atheist church. It is an important moment for the faithless. Will it include women?"

          http://www.salon.com/2013/07/21/from_hitchens_to_dawkins_where_are_the_women_of_new_atheism/

          February 27, 2014 at 1:33 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          "Lately, however, we have begun to hear from atheists or non-believers who strike a rather different, less belligerent tone. These “New, New Atheists”, to borrow the physicist Jim Al-Khalili’s phrase, are the inheritors of Coleridge. They separate their atheism from their secularism and argue that a secular state need not demand of the religious that they put their most cherished beliefs to one side when they enter public debate; only that they shouldn’t expect those beliefs to be accepted without scepticism."

          http://www.newstatesman.com/lifestyle/religion/2013/03/god-dead-long-live-our-souls

          February 27, 2014 at 1:35 pm |
        • SeaVik

          "What distinguishes the newer atheist is his admission that non-believers can be just as immoral as believers."

          I've never heard an atheist of any variety who would disagree with this statement. This isn't anything new. Atheism doesn't guarentee moral behavior, it just guarantees a lack of certain immoral behaviors.

          "Rejecting religion is no sure path to virtue;"

          Same point as before and still nothing new.

          "it is more likely to lead to complacent self-regard, or ideological arrogance."

          I don't think arrogance is the right term to describe one who knows he is in a superior position. It's not like I go around bragging about being an atheist because I want to show off. I simply am trying to help delusional religious people see how inferior their position is in hopes that they'll break free and see reality.

          February 27, 2014 at 1:39 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          You are not in a superior position. That is probably one of the most delusional and arrogant statement I've ever seen on this blog.

          February 27, 2014 at 1:43 pm |
        • SeaVik

          Thank you, I'll take that as a complement coming from you. Yes, atheists are undenably in a superior intellectual position. Non-atheists believe far-fetched things based on no evidence. That is an inferior position.

          I suppose I can see how I sound arrogant to a believer since a believer doesn't see how delusional their position is. To me, it is obvious, so it's more matter-of-fact than what I consider to be arrogance.

          February 27, 2014 at 1:49 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          Atheists just means you don't believe in God.

          I have no problem with atheists.

          I do not agree with atheists that assert they have the superior position. Luckily, most do NOT assert that.

          February 27, 2014 at 2:05 pm |
        • SeaVik

          "Most do not"? Really? And you know this how? Certainly most atheists here seem to consider their position to be superior. Certainly every atheist I've ever met considers their position to be superior. If you understand how and why people end up being religious, there's no doubt that it's an inferior position.

          February 27, 2014 at 2:37 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          Personally considering your viewpoint as being "superior" is not a good trait.

          I know a lot of atheists. I lived as one for 20+ years.

          Most do not do what you do.

          February 27, 2014 at 2:52 pm |
        • joey3467

          I am not sure if superior is the right word, but if you don't feel that a position you hold is superior or perhaps more correct than the opposite position why would you hold it?

          February 27, 2014 at 3:31 pm |
    • neverbeenhappieratheist

      I love Christians. And some are not bigots.

      But most are. And those bigots need to be opposed.

      February 27, 2014 at 11:46 am |
      • Dalahäst

        Exactly! I do oppose them. Some Christians really hate me. Almost as much as some of the hostile atheists on here.

        February 27, 2014 at 11:48 am |
        • snuffleupagus

          Dala, I can see why others, that are like you, hate you. It's there for all to see. Too bad you can't see it, might make you a better person. I don't see that happening as you are, as others have called you, a troll.

          February 27, 2014 at 12:02 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          Nope. Others that are like me do not hate me. It is a few bigot atheists and a few bigot Christians that hate me. Because I'm not like them.

          You can call me a troll like 1 other bigot is. Sure.

          February 27, 2014 at 12:07 pm |
        • snuffleupagus

          Dala, you are just what you claim not to be, by the fact that you say so, and then saying that others are. Priceless

          February 27, 2014 at 12:25 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          Hey, that is what I'm saying about them.

          Not fair!

          Now, you are doing it.

          😦

          February 27, 2014 at 12:26 pm |
        • SeaVik

          I doubt anyone here actually hates you. That's quite a strong word. I'm sure many of us hate the things that Christianity (and other religion) promotes. I don't think you're a bad person, just misguided and unaware of how wrong / bad faith is.

          February 27, 2014 at 1:13 pm |
        • doobzz

          @ snuffle

          Dala's main argument is just a wordy version of "I know you are but what am I?" Or, "Atheists do it too, wahhhhhh!"

          February 27, 2014 at 1:15 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          Uh, yea.

          Your main argument is –

          "Hey, look what Dala is doing. Everyone, look! Hey. Look what he said. He, guess what? Did you hear what Dala said? Hey guys, Dala Dala Dala.

          Dala. Dala. Dala. Dala. All day long. And another thing: Dala."

          February 27, 2014 at 1:19 pm |
        • doobzz

          LOL.

          Didn't mama nurse you enough?

          February 27, 2014 at 1:23 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      I love Christians. And most are not bigots.

      But Jesus was...

      February 27, 2014 at 11:56 am |
      • Dalahäst

        You are a bigot.

        February 27, 2014 at 12:01 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          You worship a bigot and a hypocrite...and you are a delusional, intellectually dishonest troll.

          February 27, 2014 at 12:17 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          You are the voice of reason and logic. Science is on your side. Soon, people will be lining up for miles to hear your words and buy your books on truth. Everyone is going to want what you have. The simple notion that what you detect with your 5 senses is all there is to this world: that is the fact that has never been considered in all the history of mankind.

          February 27, 2014 at 12:25 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          You are the voice of a bigot worshipper....I am sure Jesus has a special love for you.

          February 27, 2014 at 12:43 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          I believe in the magic of your logical mind. The chemicals have evolved to make your reactions to stimuli more reasonable than mine. For that reason, you win.

          February 27, 2014 at 12:57 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          The only thing I won is realizing you are a troll...

          February 27, 2014 at 1:01 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          You don't *know* that, it is just feelings.

          February 27, 2014 at 1:03 pm |
        • ddeevviinn

          Cheese.

          Actually, I wasn't referring to your dialogue with Dal.. I was referring to those individuals of whom it is quite obvious they have no desire to engage in meaningful conversation, it's pretty much post the vitriol and run. In all fairness, both sides are guilty of this.

          February 27, 2014 at 1:49 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          Ahh, but feelings are a path to truth, you have said as much yourself. It is like a piece of art that gives a feeling of joy...or dispare...it is real, and therefore valid to conclude you are a troll. It my personal experience...I KNOW it to be true and for you to state otherwise just proves you are arrogant and do not tolerate my belief that you are trollish...which itself proves the premise. It works for me.

          February 27, 2014 at 1:50 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          Right, we both depend on our feelings to determine what is true for us.

          I'm trying to make you see you do the same thing I do.

          February 27, 2014 at 2:10 pm |
        • ddeevviinn

          Meant to post below.

          February 27, 2014 at 1:52 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          No, I don't enjoy dishonesty.

          Bigot Jesus does though!

          February 27, 2014 at 2:57 pm |
    • ogamidiagoro

      Hello , I am a bigoted atheist.

      I embrace my hatred and channel it where it is needed.

      February 27, 2014 at 1:14 pm |
  8. SeaVik

    One of the idiots who supported the discrimination bill in Arizona said, "The religious beliefs of all Arizonans must be respected and this bill did nothing more than affirm that."

    When will these people get it? NO, your beliefs don't deserve respect just because you call them religious beliefs! There is nothing special about religious beliefs that pre-qualifies them as deserving of respect. If you are for discrimination, I don't respect your beliefs regardless of what caused you to be a bigot (religion, poor upbrining, etc).

    It's such an idiotic proposition. I could literally have the most disgusting beliefs possible, and call that my religion, and people are therefore supposed to respect my beliefs? Of course not...

    February 27, 2014 at 11:39 am |
    • Sungrazer

      Right. There is this notion that religion and religious beliefs deserve respect because...well, because. I try to treat people with respect, but I am under no obligation to respect beliefs that are harmful, discriminatory, counterfactual.. Some beliefs you can effectively ignore; many must be directly opposed.

      February 27, 2014 at 12:36 pm |
  9. lunchbreaker

    So as/suming this law even sticks, the real problem will come when some metrose/xual is denied his morning latte because the barista suspects he is gay, or when the local Denny's denies a group party of the local girl's softball team because they appear to butch. Other than a person's admission of orientation, how much is at the businesses discretion?

    February 27, 2014 at 11:17 am |
  10. James XCIX

    "36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.'" (Matthew)

    The guest in the video is practicing what he believes Jesus said, allowing that those two greatest commandments from Jesus trump anything someone else (like Paul, perhaps?) says. Hmm, what a concept–Christians who actually do what Jesus said.

    February 27, 2014 at 11:09 am |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Jesus also said to reject your family and friends who do not accept what he was selling. Not an ethical or moral message.

      February 27, 2014 at 11:13 am |
      • James XCIX

        Agreed, but I think Christianity would have been better served if they'd have just stuck with Jesus and left Paul's writings out of it.

        February 27, 2014 at 11:18 am |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          Yeah you make a good point. Paul was a bit of an ass. Jesus was maybe a little better, but the world would have been better off without him as well.

          February 27, 2014 at 11:27 am |
        • ddeevviinn

          It's the 3rd and 4th words in your sentence wherein lies the problem.

          February 27, 2014 at 11:33 am |
        • James XCIX

          ddeevviinn –

          I'm confused–are you saying I shouldn't think?

          February 27, 2014 at 11:35 am |
        • ddeevviinn

          I'm saying your thinking is confused.

          February 27, 2014 at 11:38 am |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          Well devin obviously we think your thinking is confused. Is there a way to determine who is correct?

          February 27, 2014 at 11:41 am |
        • James XCIX

          Oh, that wasn't clear. Paul strikes me as an ascetic, somewhat bigoted control freak who traveled all over the Mediterranean just to make sure that nobody else's interpretation of things gained any ground over his.

          February 27, 2014 at 11:43 am |
        • ddeevviinn

          Cheese

          Well I think, what you think, about what I think, doesn't matter. What do you think?

          In all seriousness, we may never know.

          February 27, 2014 at 11:45 am |
        • ddeevviinn

          James

          Which is the reason for my initial statement. How on earth you can derive that concluson out of the Pauline Epistles is baffling.

          February 27, 2014 at 11:48 am |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          "we may never know"

          Hey! Another point we can agree on!

          Obviously we both think the other is wrong....and I am fine with that. I have no problem with someone telling me I am wrong and having an honest discussion. And I do think you do as well.

          February 27, 2014 at 12:01 pm |
        • James XCIX

          ddeevviinn – Quick example of the control freak impression, from Galatians 1:
          "6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!"

          In other words, my way or the highway. Not doubting he thought he was right, but so did those others he was condemning. His point of view wound up being the accepted version, due largely to his persistent travel and writing to admonish those who were on the "wrong" path.

          February 27, 2014 at 12:02 pm |
        • ddeevviinn

          James

          I'll be kind here and say you just have a misunderstanding of the passage. Paul is using a play on words here in Galatians 1. He is using 2 different Greek works ( heteros-) and ( allos) to show that the believers at Galatia are being led astray by those who are presenting a gospel of a "COMPLETELY different kind" – heteros, than what they had received. He was simply reinforcing sound doctrine.

          February 27, 2014 at 12:14 pm |
        • James XCIX

          ddeevviinn – "He was simply reinforcing sound doctrine."

          Yes, HIS doctrine, which is considered sound today because his came out on top.

          February 27, 2014 at 12:17 pm |
        • ddeevviinn

          Cheese

          Yes, I am fine with that also. You and I have opposing views that I am certain will never be rectified until you come to your senses ( I"M JOKING !!!).

          What I do find disconcerting is the fact that adults can't come to a site such as this and engage in heated, if not contentious debate, all the while maintaining a certain level of civility. I have myself, on more than one occasion, applied sar casm and biting humor, but I have not knowingly gone after a person's character. I wish the ad hominems would just get checked at the door.

          This new found common ground is starting to scare me.

          February 27, 2014 at 12:33 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          "This new found common ground is starting to scare me."

          Me as well devin, but at base level I do think you would rather attempt to have an honest discussion, I think you and I just butt heads a bit hard at times. Don't take my recent postings with Dala too seriously, I have tried to be civil with him but he cannot get past ad hominem attacks to discuss issues, and so I have given up with him. I promise to attempt civility with you going forward.

          February 27, 2014 at 12:51 pm |
        • joey3467

          Without Paul there wouldn't be Christianity.

          February 27, 2014 at 1:00 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          "In all fairness, both sides are guilty of this."

          devin,

          Yep, agree again (oh my). It is part of being human and really isn't a condition of one side or the other. It is part of the problem with Dala where he promotes the idea that atheists think they are superior. I have responded that atheists think their "world view" is superior, Christians do too, EVERYBODY really thinks their world view is superior... that is why they have it...and to resort to that level discourse is futile. It is the "why" one thinks their world view is superior that is interesting.

          February 27, 2014 at 2:01 pm |
    • Russ

      @ James: seems to me that the interviewee above & you have overlooked that Jesus' love includes saying a definitive "no" to certain things. Read Mt.23, for example. He's rather harsh there. Or even the famed Jn.8 passage, where he defends the woman caught in adultery, but still says to her "go & sin no more."

      Jesus has the same anthropology as Paul: humanity is broken and needs a Savior.
      Saying "love your neighbor as yourself" requires loving ourselves enough to be honest about our brokenness. And that's a brokenness he clearly does not want celebrated.

      February 27, 2014 at 11:31 am |
      • James XCIX

        I'm just saying that since Jesus identified those as the greatest commandments, they should take precedence. I can't help it if there are any contradictions with what he says elsewhere.

        February 27, 2014 at 11:38 am |
        • Russ

          @ James: therein lies the rub. whether you agree or not, a large portion of the people you are arguing with do not regard the Bible as self-contradictory. to argue such is self-defeating in two ways:

          1) it immediately shows you are not engaging their argument on its own grounds (but rather portraying a caricature)

          2) Jesus says they "sum up" the law – not *trump* or *subst.itute* for the law. so your argument doesn't take the exact quotation seriously either.

          February 27, 2014 at 11:42 am |
        • James XCIX

          " shows you are not engaging their argument on its own grounds "

          Perhaps not, but what's wrong with meeting on some middle ground?.

          February 27, 2014 at 11:48 am |
        • Russ

          @ James:
          1) arguing from WITHIN someone else's position is a much stronger argument than arguing from OUTSIDE it.
          2) before you can meet on "common ground", you've got to accurately locate/represent the two positions.

          February 27, 2014 at 12:11 pm |
        • James XCIX

          Russ – I think there are contradictions, someone else doesn't, we recognize each other's points of view without requiring the other to accept them–voila! Middle ground found.

          February 27, 2014 at 12:16 pm |
        • joey3467

          Are you suggesting that we should all pretend there are no contradiction in the bile when there are clearly a lot of them? That doesn't make any sense to me. The contradictions should be pointed out and if the believers want to pretend they don't exist then fine.

          February 27, 2014 at 1:20 pm |
        • Russ

          @ James & Joey:
          1) it is what underlies your statement here that demonstrates my point. you take as a given that contradictions are obvious within the Bible.

          a) in this particular debate, that begs the question (since it is the hermeneutical debate under this particular hot topic of ho.mo.se.xuality). you are taking as a given the very thing that is under debate.

          b) your position requires assuming your opponents – in missing the obvious – are unintelligent. do you understand how that also hinders honest discussion? furthermore, that ignores a very broad field of scholarship which often speaks to the contrary (again, exposing the fact that there are very intelligent people on BOTH sides of the biblical debate here). in other words, that's a very shallow read of the text.

          2) consider the opposite approach:

          a) instead of *agreeing* that there are no contradictions, see if you can actually understand the argument being made (in this case: that there are NOT contradictions – especially since that is a widely held opinion of those on the opposite end of this debate). if you can't, i hope you can readily see how your arguments in response (built on a false premise) FAIL to engage the actual position of those you are criticizing. (your opponents say: "that's not what i think. you're not even talking about me – at least not with any integrity." i would think that's the same courtesy you would want if the shoe was on the other foot.)

          but as it is, you are erecting a straw man that actually hinders BOTH sides from having honest discussion, much less progressing toward your desired "middle ground."

          b) if you can accurately represent your opponents position (in a form recognizable to them) and THEN demonstrate said contradictions from WITHIN their framework, that is a strong argument. and THAT is precisely what made MLK & William Wilberforce so successful.

          c) the problem is, unlike MLK & Wilberforce (who appealed from WITHIN a biblically conservative framework), the g.ay lobby cannot make the same hermeneutical claims. whereas slavery & racism are clearly called to task in the Bible, the same book speaks univocally regarding ho.mo.se.xuality. the only remaining biblical argument (that the text is culturally bound) requires a NEW hermeneutic – but now you are asking conservatives not simply to 'listen to their Bibles' (as MLK could do) but rather to ABANDON them. *that* is why this particular agenda is being perceived as "an attack on religion" (regardless of whether one defends the Arizona bill).

          February 27, 2014 at 4:24 pm |
        • James XCIX

          Russ – Simply google "contradictions in the Bibe" and take you pick of the results. If you still insist there are none then you are right, it would be difficult to have a discussion.

          February 27, 2014 at 4:43 pm |
        • Russ

          @ James: you are not hearing what i'm saying.

          1) i'm not requiring that you *agree* in order to have the conversation.
          for the sake of debate, it is disingenuous (at best) to misrepresent the other side. i'm only asking that you actually take a serious look at what the other side believes (because you ARE misrepresenting their position).

          2) the fact that your response is "just google it" is a big part of the problem.
          the internet is a useful tool, but it's just that: a tool. it's all in how you use it.
          google is not the authority here. it's rather like polling the audience.

          in short, check the scholarship. the American Academy of Religion represents a WIDE spectrum of beliefs among scholars: from atheists to all variety of religions, even (though it sounds like it shocks you) biblical inerrantists. and – unlike your position – their debate hinges on *scholarship.*

          SUM: there are *legitimate* discussions to be had on the question of contradictions. but "just google it" is not one of them. and the shallowness of your approach is why you caricature those with whom you disagree and dismiss them out of hand. you would rightly be upset if they gave you the same treatment (ironically considering the origin of this was the Golden Rule).

          i'm not telling you that you must agree with them. i'm saying that making a straw man (whether *purposeful* or through negligence) is part of the problem, not the solution, if you are actually seeking a genuine dialogue.

          February 27, 2014 at 5:15 pm |
        • joey3467

          If you are trying to tell me there are no contradictions in the bible then I would have to question your ability to read.

          February 27, 2014 at 5:28 pm |
        • joey3467

          I can point out the contradictions, but that is usually when the Earth person sticks their fingers in their ears and closes their eyes, and starts yelling " I can't hear you"

          February 27, 2014 at 5:32 pm |
        • joey3467

          Earth should be other, I don't know what that was about.

          February 27, 2014 at 5:33 pm |
        • joey3467

          Also no one is asking Christians to not listen to their bibles, we are just asking that you guys stop trying to make everyone else listen to them as well.

          February 27, 2014 at 5:34 pm |
        • James XCIX

          Russ – " you are not hearing what i'm saying."

          Yes, I do–I simply think you're wrong.

          February 27, 2014 at 5:35 pm |
        • joey3467

          For example, if as Matthew claims anything is possible with the Lord, then why couldn't Judah defeat the iron chariots when the Lord was with him(Judges1:19)? Does this same verse not contradict all of the verses that claim god is all powerful? If not then why?

          February 27, 2014 at 5:38 pm |
        • James XCIX

          Russ – " it is disingenuous (at best) to misrepresent the other side."

          How am I misrepresenting the other side? I see contradictions. Doesn't the other side believe that there are no contradictions?

          February 27, 2014 at 5:38 pm |
        • Russ

          @ joey: sadly, you are demonstrating my point.

          1) you said: "...I would have to question your ability to read."

          a) you are proving what i said earlier about a superiority complex. you are assuming you are better because your premise is flawed. and consequently, all your arguments are flawed because they flow from a flawed premise.

          b) ironically, i gave you information that pointed to a much deeper pool of scholarship here. you did not avail yourself of any of said scholarship. it makes one wonder if your critique is a self-projected one.

          2) you said: "no one is asking Christians to not listen to their bibles, we are just asking that you guys stop trying to make everyone else listen to them as well."

          a) this shows either an unabashed disregard for the content of the bible (again, begging the question) or a simple lack of awareness (pressing your point about not having read...).

          b) the Great Commission (to share Him with the world) was the last command Jesus gave. for a Christian, your statement ("stop trying to make everyone listen" – aside from being ostensibly self-refuting) openly contradicts Jesus' last command. even if you disagree with that command, do you not see how you are setting your position up as a competing authority claim (i.e., god/religion/etc.)?

          3) your example of a contradiction (Jdgs.1:19) is a rather weak choice.

          a) there are scholars on your side of the debate here. they could give you much stronger examples (manuscript contradictions, numeric ones, theological conundrums, etc.). as i said above, there is an irony here that you are assuming the conservatives are ignorant or unintelligent when you seem so unaware of the available scholarship.

          b) Jesus "lost" on the cross. that strikes much more at the vitals of the faith. if you are looking to show a failure within the system of faith (here you've chosen God's sovereignty as the topic to challenge), it's probably best to use central examples.

          c) ironically, though, Jesus' loss on the cross is how the ultimate victory was won (demonstrating utter sovereignty that God actually accomplishes his plan through losing). many of the OT narrative examples demonstrate that principle in redemptive history (such as Jdgs.1) long before Christ became the fulfillment of it.

          February 27, 2014 at 6:30 pm |
        • Russ

          @ James:
          i said "you're not hearing what i'm saying."
          you said "yes i do – i just think you're wrong."

          so, to which of the topics are you actually objecting? because you left that wide open...

          quick summary of my last post to you...
          1) you don't have to agree to understand
          (and if you don't understand, you WILL misrepresent those with whom you disagree)
          2) 'just google it' is not a legitimate way to decide a debated topic (much less engage the scholarship)
          a) there is a rather HUGE field of scholarship on these topics
          b) there is a wide range of scholarly positions within this field of biblical scholarship
          c) you assume everyone who claims there are no contradictions in the Bible is unable to read and/or unintelligent, and yet many highly trained scholars hold that very position

          so which part are you talking about? where am i "simply wrong"? because it sounds like you are dismissing the entirety of those multiple arguments... which would ironically (again) mean you are guilty of your own critique here.

          February 27, 2014 at 6:42 pm |
        • James XCIX

          Russ –

          I’m really not sure what you’re making such a big deal about—we disagree, but you insist my disagreement has some illegitimate basis while yours does not. Curious.

          “… it is disingenuous (at best) to misrepresent the other side. i'm only asking that you actually take a serious look at what the other side believes”
          How am I misrepresenting it? How do you conclude I haven’t taken a serious look? Just because I've reached a different conclusion than you have?

          “the fact that your response is "just google it" is a big part of the problem” “in short, check the scholarship”
          Don’t you think the differing scholarly views you talk about are available for viewing on the internet?

          "the shallowness of your approach is why you caricature those with whom you disagree and dismiss them out of hand"
          You sure make a lot of assumptions.

          February 27, 2014 at 10:27 pm |
        • Russ

          @ James:

          1) you said in the OP: "...those two greatest commandments from Jesus trump anything someone else (like Paul, perhaps?) says..."

          a) did you not mean to rather directly imply that Paul cannot be read as *following* Jesus' teachings here?

          b) you seem unaware (despite your recent appeal to internet available scholarship) that most scholars take the opposite stance (namely: not only that Paul's teaching is in chorus with Christ, but as an ardent follower of Christ, his teaching *flows directly out* of what Jesus taught)

          c) you seem unaware that Paul is one of (if not THE) earliest writer in the NT (and most scholars presume the earliest source is the best source)

          d) you seem unaware that virtually every major point of theology Paul teaches can also be found in some form in the Gospel accounts (which – if you are following the vast majority of scholarship – is the only 'source' for what Jesus taught we have)

          So...
          you said: "How am I misrepresenting it? How do you conclude I haven’t taken a serious look? Just because I've reached a different conclusion than you have?"
          hopefully in the above you now have an understandable example of what i mean by "misrepresenting." i know you haven't taken a serious look because your arguments don't match the readily available scholarship for EITHER side of the debate.

          2) you said: "Don’t you think the differing scholarly views you talk about are available for viewing on the internet?"
          yes. again, you aren't appealing to any of that scholarship. if anything, your points contradict that scholarship. so your argument here actually is self-defeating.

          3) you said: "You sure make a lot of assumptions." b/c i said "the shallowness of your approach is why you caricature those with whom you disagree and dismiss them out of hand"

          the points i made here under #1 only highlight my point. if you don't engage the scholarship (especially of those with whom you disagree), you will *necessarily*l caricature their position – which only (purposefully?) hinders honest dialogue.

          SUM:
          you said: "we disagree, but you insist my disagreement has some illegitimate basis while yours does not."

          there are scholars with whom I disagree but I recognize they are actually appealing to scholarship & making an INFORMED argument. you are not, and you display a great lack of awareness of the field of biblical scholarship. so it is not the mere fact of our disagreement i am pointing out, but that you are making a hugely uninformed argument. so yes, that is illegitimate.

          February 27, 2014 at 11:11 pm |
        • James XCIX

          Russ – "you are making a hugely uninformed argument."

          As I said before, you make a lot of assumptions. You have no idea how informed I am, yet you're ready to make assertions about it. You seem to like to attack but not to listen or to accept that people can reach different conclusions than you. And I have no idea when our discussion switched to Paul. Your method of communication is confusing and I'm tired of trying, so I bid you farewell. You can have the last word, if you like–I won't be responding.

          February 28, 2014 at 11:22 pm |
        • Russ

          @ James:
          You brought up Paul in the original post, not me.
          You made an argument that ignores the scholarship, so I pointed that out.
          You claim I'm making assumptions when I point that out, yet you refuse to actually engage the scholarship.
          You quote my final sentence, yet ignore the rest of the content of the paragraph from which it came.
          You claim 'confusion' even though all I've basically done is repeatedly dare you to back up your initial claim with scholarship... and you repeatedly chose not to do so.

          it's not about having the "last word."
          it's frustrating to have wasted the energy on a conversation where it now appears you were purposefully dodging.

          March 1, 2014 at 12:40 am |
      • joey3467

        I think Jesus was saying unless you are perfect don't judge others. Since Jesus was perfect then he can judge others, but no human should.

        February 27, 2014 at 1:04 pm |
        • doobzz

          If Jesus was perfect, he wasn't truly human.

          February 27, 2014 at 1:12 pm |
        • joey3467

          Sorry, I should have pointed out that all of my post is according to the bible, and I don't actually believe that Jesus was the son of god. Also, I completely agree with you you can't be fully human and fully god at the same time. Since if Jesus was perfect he wasn't fully human and if he wasn't perfect then he wasn't fully god.

          February 27, 2014 at 1:18 pm |
        • doobzz

          LOL. I figured that out from your other posts, but it was after this one.

          February 27, 2014 at 1:25 pm |
        • Russ

          @ joey:
          Mt.7:1-5 actually comes to the exact OPPOSITE conclusion. you can't help your brothers if you have to be perfect. instead, be aware of your own "log" while attempting to help them remove their speck.

          your interpretation would require everyone staying blind.

          February 27, 2014 at 4:26 pm |
        • Russ

          @ doobz:
          you are defining humanity as fundamentally flawed.
          a) do you believe that? if so, who saves us from ourselves?
          b) that begs the question here (it requires assuming God made humanity flawed, thereby contradicting the biblical text [the debate above], and contradicting the entire conception of redemptive history that brings Jesus as a Restorer/Redeemer).

          February 27, 2014 at 4:29 pm |
        • kudlak

          joey3467
          Did Jesus ever say that he was perfect and had the right to judge others?

          February 27, 2014 at 6:52 pm |
  11. Sungrazer

    Discrimination is what is under attack. If your religion promotes or condones or tolerates discrimination, then I suppose you could say your religion is under attack, and justifiably so.

    February 27, 2014 at 11:01 am |
    • Dalahäst

      If they are a non-religious bigot who discriminate, they are under attack, too. They can try to hide behind their double-standards and hypocrisy, but us reasonable human beings can see through their man-made philosophy.

      Where do they go when you run them off the religious blog message boards? I've been checking the science and technology blogs, they have never been there. Oh, whywontgodhealamputees.com message board. There they are!

      February 27, 2014 at 11:07 am |
      • Doris

        "man-made philosophy"

        LOL

        February 27, 2014 at 11:16 am |
        • Dalahäst

          Welcome to the Belief Blog, an opinion section. It is not rocket science being discussed here, but philosophy and personal mantras. What do you imagine you are sharing?

          February 27, 2014 at 11:31 am |
      • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

        Why aren't you on the "I worship Jesus the bigot" boards (Christian sites)?

        February 27, 2014 at 11:17 am |
        • Dalahäst

          For the same reason you are not on a science blog.

          February 27, 2014 at 11:26 am |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          Well there you go...you answered your own question.

          February 27, 2014 at 11:28 am |
        • Dalahäst

          Because you don't understand such a concept as science?

          February 27, 2014 at 11:36 am |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          I understand you are a troll and are intellectually dishonest and it is useless to attempt to have meaningful discourse with you.

          February 27, 2014 at 11:44 am |
        • Dalahäst

          We just don't share the same *feelings*, so the chemicals in your brain are reacting to that. It makes you *feel* I'm a "troll".

          No big deal.

          February 27, 2014 at 11:52 am |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          No I base my opinion on the evidence of our interaction as well as your interaction with others....

          February 27, 2014 at 12:09 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          That's what I'm doing, too.

          Maybe we can help each other with our blind spots. The things we don't see about ourselves.

          http://www.amazon.com/The-Blind-Spot-Science-Uncertainty/dp/0691146845

          In today's unpredictable and chaotic world, we look to science to provide certainty and answers–and often blame it when things go wrong. The Blind Spot reveals why our faith in scientific certainty is a dangerous illusion, and how only by embracing science's inherent ambiguities and paradoxes can we truly appreciate its beauty and harness its potential.

          Crackling with insights into our most perplexing contemporary dilemmas, from climate change to the global financial meltdown, this book challenges our most sacredly held beliefs about science, technology, and progress. At the same time, it shows how the secret to better science can be found where we least expect it–in the uncertain, the ambiguous, and the inevitably unpredictable.

          February 27, 2014 at 12:29 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          Nope...you burned that bridge Dala.

          February 27, 2014 at 12:53 pm |
      • otoh2

        Dalahast,

        Yesterday I was reading comments on the CNN article about NASA and the discovery of new planets... and the day before the one about the 4.4 billion year-old crystal. Non-believer physicists, mathematicians, astronomers, geologists, etc. were/are all over the place there.

        February 27, 2014 at 11:47 am |
        • Dalahäst

          Cool. NASA also has a lot of believers. I've heard religious items are the most often personal items brought into space by astronauts.

          February 27, 2014 at 11:51 am |
        • otoh2

          Dalahast,

          My comment was about your: " I've been checking the science and technology blogs, they have never been there."

          February 27, 2014 at 11:58 am |
        • Dalahäst

          Ok, I got ya. Yea, and those scientists don't post here. Because they are scientists.

          February 27, 2014 at 12:02 pm |
        • otoh2

          D,
          "and those scientists don't post here. Because they are scientists."

          I don't know - some of them could use different screen names there - but at any rate, they have the same points that the more science-oriented posters here have.

          February 27, 2014 at 12:11 pm |
        • otoh2

          p.s. Haven't you ever seen posts from redzoa, alonzoquixote and others (sorry, their names escape me right now)?

          February 27, 2014 at 12:14 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          No.

          February 27, 2014 at 12:30 pm |
      • commonsensed01

        Uh, isn't all Philosophy as we know it man made? What other philosophy are people using these days?

        February 27, 2014 at 12:00 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          Some guy said I was inferior to him because I followed a man-made religion. But he follows a man-made philosophy that he treats like a religion, so it is funny

          February 27, 2014 at 12:03 pm |
  12. Doris

    Catholic League President Bill Donohue debates the merits of gay marriage with CNN's Chris Cuomo
    (CNN video):

    "Marriage is not about love"

    That's right – in Uganda, it's about hate and getting thrown in jail.....

    February 27, 2014 at 10:39 am |
  13. new-man

    Receive As You Hear The Good News

    Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes…

    If you have been to motivational seminars, you would probably have heard the speakers say, “If you follow these five steps, then you will come to a place of financial increase.” They would probably have told you also that if you don’t succeed, it is because you did not follow the steps correctly or diligently.

    Thank God that the gospel or good news does not work like that! The minute you hear or read the good news, and you believe and receive it, His Word goes forth to sozo (the Greek word for “save”) you, making you well, prosperous and whole, “for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes”.

    What is the good news? It is that God loves us so much that He gave us His Son to take our beating so that we can have His blessings without having to work for them. Right now, as you are reading this devotional, listening to a preacher or watching a sermon DVD, as you hear God’s Word, His power is released into your situation, working things out for you and turning your situation around for your good.

    In Acts 14:8–10, we see Paul preaching the good news in Lystra. A man who was crippled from birth was listening to Paul. Paul, seeing that he had faith to be healed, said, “Stand up straight on your feet!” And the man leaped and walked! He heard the good news, believed it and was healed.

    At a leadership conference in Oslo, Norway, where I was speaking, a pastor there shared how a well-respected businessman in his church was healed while listening to one of my sermon CDs. This man was deaf in one ear. And when he was listening to my teaching on the CD, his deaf ear popped open without anyone laying hands on him or praying for him! He was just listening to the good news when his ear opened. Now, that is what I call the power of God unto his salvation, sozo-ing him, making his hearing whole!

    My friend, these miracles happen not because we follow some kind of formula faithfully, but because we hear the good news preached and simply believe it!

    JPM

    February 27, 2014 at 10:03 am |
    • Vic

      Nothing pleases God like "Faith."

      Amen.

      February 27, 2014 at 10:14 am |
    • snuffleupagus

      n-w says: "My friend, these miracles happen not because we follow some kind of formula faithfully, but because we hear the good news preached and simply believe it!"

      Yes, you have to be 'simple' to have faith in the unseen and believe myth. Same ol' spouting of their unsupportable truths, that they base on their 'faith.'

      February 27, 2014 at 10:24 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      "Don't Think – Believe" – sounds like a good slogan for most religions.
      In order to believe, all you have to do is suspend disbelief!

      [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCWPCiHJ8rk&w=640&h=360]

      February 27, 2014 at 10:25 am |
      • Doc Vestibule

        So you say you gotta know why the world goes 'round
        and you can't find the truth in the things you've found
        and you're scared sh.itless 'cuz evil abounds
        come join us

        well I heard you were looking for a place to fit in
        full of adherent people with the same objective
        a family to cling to and call brethren
        come join us

        all we want to do is change your mind
        all you need to do is close your eyes

        come join us
        come join us
        come join us

        don't you see the trouble that most people are in
        and that they just want you for their own advantage
        but I swear to you we're different from all of them
        come join us
        I can tell you are lookin' for a way to live
        where truth is determined by consensus
        full of codified arbitrary directives
        come join us
        all we want to have is your small mind
        turn it into one of our own kind
        you can go through life adrift and alone
        desperate, desolate, on your own
        but we're lookin' for a few more stalwart clones
        come join us
        come join us
        come join us

        we've got spite and dedication as a vehement brew
        the world hates us, well we hate them too
        but you're exempted of course if you
        come join us
        independent, self-contented, revolutionary
        intellectual, brave, strong and scholarly
        if you're not one of them, you're us already so
        come join us

        – Dr. Greg Graffin

        February 27, 2014 at 10:28 am |
        • Dalahäst

          "I hate religion. So, I'm going to join an anti-religious movement that is basically just a religion. And I will religiously talk about this man made concept all day long on religion blogs. Ta-Da." – the internet atheists

          "Oh, ya, and another thing. Science. Just the broad and general idea of it. Yea."

          February 27, 2014 at 10:35 am |
        • Doc Vestibule

          Do you see those types of people considering themselves to be "independent, self-contented, revolutionary, intellectual, brave, strong and scholarly"?

          The subject of the song is dogmatic groupthink, no matter what the source.

          February 27, 2014 at 10:40 am |
        • ausphor

          Dala...
          Any sufficiently advanced troll is indistinguishable from a genuine kook. Alan Morgan

          February 27, 2014 at 10:41 am |
        • In Santa We Trust

          Dala, The point is – if you had any evidence to support what you say there would be little to no disagreement (depending upon how much actual evidence). Isn't there a well-known response to the statement "it hurts when I bang my head on the wall"?

          February 27, 2014 at 10:49 am |
        • Dalahäst

          Unfortunately some anti-theists ignore all kinds of evidence. Especially evidence that points to flaws in their reasoning and logic. But they sure do *feel* they have evidence on their side... and, boy, will they tell you all about it!

          It is philosophy. Not evidence based science.

          February 27, 2014 at 10:54 am |
        • SeaVik

          Dala, you make a lot of allegations and constantly bash atheists, but you never seem to offer any support for your position. What is this evidence you speak of that contradicts the atheist position?

          February 27, 2014 at 11:09 am |
        • Dalahäst

          I actually don't oppose atheists or atheism. Just the bigoted ones. It has nothing to do with their disbelief. It has to do with their actions and behavior. Most atheists do not support such kinds of actions and behaviors. But most atheists do not post on religious blogs, so you don't hear from them.

          February 27, 2014 at 11:38 am |
        • SeaVik

          "Unfortunately some anti-theists ignore all kinds of evidence. Especially evidence that points to flaws in their reasoning and logic."

          So are you going to elaborate or just pretend you didn't make this ridiculous statement?

          February 27, 2014 at 11:42 am |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          "So are you going to elaborate or just pretend you didn't make this ridiculous statement?"

          The answer is "B".

          Dala is a troll.

          February 27, 2014 at 11:45 am |
        • Dalahäst

          Seavick

          For example, an anti-theist like Bob will call me out and criticize me for making personal attacks.

          There is evidence of others, like Colin, making personal attacks, too, toward me in that same thread. But Bob doesn't call him out. His personal attacks are ok, because they support his hate.

          And then others join in criticizing me for things others are doing.

          That is a complete double standard. There is nothing logical or reasonable about it.

          Luckily, most atheists are not like that!

          February 27, 2014 at 11:57 am |
        • SeaVik

          "Unfortunately some anti-theists ignore all kinds of evidence. Especially evidence that points to flaws in their reasoning and logic."

          You didn't address what evidence atheists ignore that points to flaws in their reasoning and logic. Perhaps you didn't mean what you wrote, but that clearly implies evidence exists that points to flaws in the reasoning and logic specific to atheism. You didn't address this at all in your last post.

          February 27, 2014 at 1:07 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          You keep trying to make my posts about being against atheism. But that is not what I am saying. I don't have a problem with atheism.

          They are about people with flawed reasoning, that happen to be atheist. They are very vocal about their atheism. But they don't represent the typical atheist.

          February 27, 2014 at 1:16 pm |
        • SeaVik

          "Unfortunately some anti-theists ignore all kinds of evidence. Especially evidence that points to flaws in their reasoning and logic. But they sure do *feel* they have evidence on their side... and, boy, will they tell you all about it!

          It is philosophy. Not evidence based science."

          That is what you posted. I'm not trying to twist what you wrote. You just called atheism a philosophy and suggested that atheists ignore evidence that disputes atheism. If you're talking about individuals on subjects unrelated to atheism, then I don't understand why you would have posted about atheists and not just people in general.

          February 27, 2014 at 1:24 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          I said "anti-theists".

          Not atheists.

          February 27, 2014 at 3:06 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          I also said some anti-theists.

          February 27, 2014 at 3:07 pm |
    • ddeevviinn

      When you believe as I do, that God created the universe " out of nothing" , His ability to heal never comes into question. The issue is not can He, but rather does He. In virtually every anecdotal healing story I've heard, separating fact from fiction becomes troublesome. Often it seems the healed disease or deformity is rather nebulous and impervious to verification.

      My youngest son was abandoned by his mother at birth and placed in an orphanage because of his diagnosis of cystic fibrosis. CF is an autosomal recessive genetic disorder, a simple test or genetic profile 100% guarantees the disorder is either present or not. To the best of my knowledge, I know of no recorded instance in which an individual with any genetic disease, whether CF, Downs Syndrome, Fragile X etc... has been verifiably healed. It has always struck me as odd to think God would be concerned with someones ear popping open but oblivious to genetic disorders, something that would be 100% accurate proof of healing.

      My point hear is not to ridicule someone's experience, only to make sure our theology is correct.

      February 27, 2014 at 10:43 am |
      • new-man

        you are right, one can only speak of their experience, and I know God heals regardless of the disease. While I have not personally seen someone with DS healed, I know of a case where a young man who is now 21 was healed.

        It is theology that teaches that healing was then and not now... and I do not allow my own personal experiences trump the Word of God.
        I grow daily in experience, wisdom and knowledge... the word of God is constant... so any growth is all on my side, progressing to where all who I pray for will eventually be healed.

        Jesus came to do the will of God, he healed all who came to him – if sickness was God's will Jesus would be operating outside the will of God.
        I know this is not a topic many believers like to talk about but it's not one I shy away from because I know I serve an all powerful God.
        Jesus spent almost 30 years preparing for his 3.5 yr ministry.... yet believers expect to show/experience the same results of Jesus without cultivating the type of relationship Jesus had with the Father. This is what I strive for, and I know it takes time but in the meantime I do not discount the power of God because I have not experienced 100% results.

        Could say much more... but I'll quit here.

        February 27, 2014 at 10:58 am |
        • Doc Vestibule

          When I was a young teenager, I had a friend with a degenerative eye disease in which scar tissue was slowly but surely building up over his corneas. He took a number of drugs to slow the progression, but it could not be stopped.
          His family were devoutly religious. Baptists to be precise.
          They told my friend that if he was pious and true that God would cure him.
          Every little he lost a little more of his vision and every day he tortured himself, trying to figure out what he was doing wrong that God would ignore him so.

          February 27, 2014 at 11:10 am |
        • SeaVik

          If any of the magic you speak of were actually verifiable and true, it would be global news. Last time I checked, it wasn't, so obviously your claims are untrue. It is possible that you truly believe them, but unless they are verifiable and repeatable, they're either coincidence or fabrications.

          February 27, 2014 at 11:12 am |
        • ddeevviinn

          I would think the apostle Paul had cultivated a fairly good relationship with the Father, and yet even after much prayer he remained unhealed.

          I work in a critical care unit at my hospital. Not a day goes by where I don't see the reality of suffering, disease and those who pass from life to death before my eyes. I would not only welcome you, but I would implore you to come and alleviate the pain. I've always wondered why faith healers seem to only perform their feats at "meetings/conferences/or seminars" when the hospitals are over flowing.

          February 27, 2014 at 11:18 am |
        • new-man

          DV...
          Jesus died for the salvation of the world. Is the whole world saved? = No
          Does this mean salvation doesn't work = of course not.

          Jesus was striped for our healing. which is easier, to say you are healed or to say you are saved? = it's actually easier to be healed,.. however in our modern culture it's actually easier to say, you are saved – why- because you can't see it.
          Anyway back to my point.
          Is everybody healed? = No

          Why then do "we" say healing doesn't work.
          (I'm really not expecting an answer)... because in the same manner many are not saved, the same many are not healed. It's not because there's no power in the blood of Jesus, God forbid.
          But one thing you will not see me do is make an excuse that Jesus healed then and not now, and that he heals some and not all, because that's just not what the word of God says.

          we have to figure out where we're falling short and grow in those areas.

          February 27, 2014 at 11:18 am |
        • Doc Vestibule

          It is that kind of thinking that was the bane of my friend's existence.
          He thought he was a bad person because he just kept getting sicker and his parents fed this psychosis, encouraging him to pray harder and try to cleanse himself of sin.

          February 27, 2014 at 11:33 am |
        • new-man

          devin,
          when was the last time a hospital just admit anyone on their wards or units.
          There was a reason Jesus told his disciples to disciple the nations ....
          I can tell you there are many things happening that do not get reported on the news...
          and as I've said before, because one doesn't experience 100% success, that doesn't mean one stop and totally discount the word.
          It means one continues until they're at 100%. Healing is spiritual warfare... For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

          February 27, 2014 at 11:40 am |
        • SeaVik

          You really think if there was a legitimate example of "god" healing someone it wouldn't be reported on the news? Come on, THINK. Get your head out of the sand. It's not reported on the news because it doesn't exist. You really think Fox News wouldn't report a legitimate story about their Christian god healing someone? If so, you're more delusional than I thought.

          February 27, 2014 at 11:46 am |
        • Doc Vestibule

          Faith healing is an old, old scam.
          Mary Baker Eddy and Joseph Smith each have reams of etewitness accounts testifying to their miraculous, God given healing powers.

          February 27, 2014 at 11:51 am |
      • new-man

        another thing I have learnt and can share with others is that earnest prayer to God is not one of pleading or begging but one of commanding.
        when the prophet prayed for it not to rain, he did so by commanding it – God sees this as earnest prayer.
        In the same manner, what ever the conditions even you sons CF you can begin to command it to go in Jesus name. (Don't scoff like others do, this is how Jesus commanded us to pray).
        I could share personal experiences of prayers of healing that have manifested, and those that haven't.
        The ones that haven't been healed yet, I haven't stopped praying. I still pray/command everyday, and I will continue until a breakthrough.

        I am not advocating people don't see drs. I am saying a person can also open their mouths and speak to their conditions and command it to leave.

        February 27, 2014 at 11:07 am |
        • SeaVik

          Also, keep in mind that prayer has been scientifically proven to reduce recovery rates of medical patients (and this study was commissioned by a religious organization). Given that fact, it's irresponsible of you to condone prayer.

          http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

          February 27, 2014 at 11:14 am |
      • commonsensed01

        I am assuming you are stating that your son was miraculously healed of CF. A simple search and real medical sites shows that CF is easy to misdiagnose. So they question seems to be, did your son really have CF in the first place. Unfortunately for your claims, the simplest answer is usually the correct one – that he really didn't have CF in the first place.

        February 27, 2014 at 12:05 pm |
        • otoh2

          No, read his comment again - it appears that @devin, although he's a Christian, does not believe the faith-healing claims and scams.

          February 27, 2014 at 12:22 pm |
        • ddeevviinn

          otoh

          You are correct. Not really sure how he drew that conclusion.

          February 27, 2014 at 3:40 pm |
    • In Santa We Trust

      How's your prayer/amputee proof coming along? Can we see photos showing growth?

      February 27, 2014 at 10:45 am |
      • new-man

        how's your meditation coming... I see you haven't grown in wisdom at all.

        When wisdom enters your heart, and knowledge is pleasant to your soul, discretion will preserve you, understanding will keep you to deliver you from the way of evil, from the man who speaks perverse things Proverbs 2:10-12.

        February 27, 2014 at 11:11 am |
        • SeaVik

          You live in an obvious state of delusion. Me 2:27:14

          February 27, 2014 at 11:16 am |
        • observernow

          new-man,

          I see that you didn't answer the question. Nothing new for a believer.

          February 27, 2014 at 11:17 am |
        • new-man

          since comprehension eludes you... let me write it out clearly.

          All of you are capable human beings, full of reason and logic... you've even posted your own parameters by which one should operate.
          It's quite simple... you open your own mouths and make your own commands – (just make sure to do it in the name of Jesus).
          You make your own observations and write them down and blog them then you can tell the world about it.
          You should be quiet happy to prove it wrong... so get going... use your mouth for more than blaspheming the word of God and cursing and ridiculing those who believe differently and actually use it for good... you just might heal a person.

          February 27, 2014 at 11:23 am |
        • observernow

          Yep. NO proof.

          February 27, 2014 at 11:25 am |
        • SeaVik

          That's about as clear as mud.

          And let me remind you that prayer has been proven to DECREASE the recovery rates of medical patients. Childhood doctrination is mental abuse. You are not healing, you are hurting people with your religious bs.

          February 27, 2014 at 11:31 am |
      • new-man

        well, if that means you can't/won't do it to prove for yourself, then you have nothing else to say to me. I'm sure it's because you see yourself as logical and reasoned, so you don't want to appear.... hmm silly...

        you will only ever have what other people have to say about it without knowing for yourself...

        Blessings and good luck

        February 27, 2014 at 11:44 am |
        • In Santa We Trust

          You were the one that said that you could prove that prayer worked. Why try to turn it around with the old "you have to believe to believe" spiel? That's what astrologers and various flavors of fortune-tellers say to avoid the hard questions.

          February 27, 2014 at 1:48 pm |
  14. Vic

    It is all about the right balance, you cannot be too strict, you cannot be too loose.

    The right move by Arizona Governor Jan Brewer vetoing Arizona Senate Bill 1062.

    February 27, 2014 at 9:57 am |
    • midwest rail

      Governor Brewer vetoed because of the economic blowback that was coming.

      February 27, 2014 at 10:08 am |
    • Doris

      Well we wouldn't want a loose canon, now would we Vic...

      February 27, 2014 at 11:05 am |
      • doobzz

        LOL.

        February 27, 2014 at 12:12 pm |
  15. fintronics

    Under attack? big load of crap!!!

    February 27, 2014 at 9:38 am |
  16. Doris

    [ " An anti-gay evangelist from the US has called for the reinstatement of ho-mose-xuality as a “mental illness” in the eyes of the American Psychiatric Association. Writing on his website, Scott Lively said that “pressure and harassment by LGBT activists”, was the reason it was removed from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual back in 1973, but called for it to be put back in. He wrote: “In 1973, after an intensive campaign of pressure and harassment by LGBT activists, the board of the American Psychological Association voted to remove hom-ose-xuality as a mental illness from their Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM), the ‘bible’ of mental health professionals. It was as if they opened Pandora’s Box and unleashed an invisible plague that attacks the reasoning centers in the brain. “Now forty years later the evidence is overwhelming that the DSM should never have been modified. The only problem is that most of the people with the power to change it back are now hom-ose-xualists themselves, infected with the same disorder. God help us.” " ]

    from back in August:

    [ " Scott Lively Will Be Tried for Fueling Antigay Persecution In Uganda
    A federal judge today overruled the American evangelical minister's request to dismiss an international lawsuit contending that Lively violated human rights by stoking the antigay climate in Uganda. " ]

    Where is the public outcry from the Pope on this madness??

    Where is the public outcry from the Archbishop of Canterbury on this madness??

    Where is the public outcry from our moderate Christians on this madness??

    Uninformed, uneducated Christian fundamentalists are scam artists of the worst magnitude.

    Maybe I should start posting like lol?? used to – I'll use "CCs" in place of complacent Christians.

    February 27, 2014 at 8:48 am |
    • Dyslexic doG

      I'd like to push for listing belief in religion as a “mental illness” in the eyes of the American Psychiatric Association.

      clinically, it has many of the same symptoms.

      February 27, 2014 at 9:23 am |
      • kudlak

        Common "misperception" maybe, but not any mental illness.

        February 27, 2014 at 10:02 am |
      • Doc Vestibule

        Kathleen Taylor, a nerologist from Oxford, says that advances in neurological imaging may enable doctors and scientists to treat religious fundamentalism as a disease.
        “Somebody who has for example become radicalised to a cult ideology – we might stop seeing that as a personal choice that they have chosen as a result of pure free will and may start treating it as some kind of mental disturbance.”

        “I am not just talking about the obvious candidates like radical Islam or some of the more extreme cults,” she explained. “I am talking about things like the belief that it is OK to beat your children. These beliefs are very harmful but are not normally categorized as mental illness.”

        February 27, 2014 at 10:22 am |
  17. igaftr

    Religion is not what is under attack. It is belief.

    Different belief is why the christians send missionaries...to attack others beliefs, same reason the Mormons and Jehovah Wtnesses knock on your door. It is an attack on your beliefs.
    Now you are hearing more from the people who don't believe in deities, and rightly so since they have been some of the most oppressed and attacked group in history.
    Every time some "christian" tells me I am a sinner and going to hell, he is attacking me.
    I'm glad to see the non-believers finnally attacking back.

    February 27, 2014 at 8:01 am |
    • Tom, Tom, the Other One

      Threats of an imaginary fate – eternal fire or whatever – by delusional people isn't really an attack. Comedy comes closest to what it is Now if people assert their religious convictions through discrimination, that's an attack.

      February 27, 2014 at 8:09 am |
      • igaftr

        Which is exactly what I'm talking about...Including everything from the blue laws, to hijacking the pledge of allegience and the national motto. On and on...I can't tell you how many times I have said I am an atheist and people act like I was satan incarnate. Sometimes it is aggressive attack, sometimes passive agressive.

        February 27, 2014 at 8:24 am |
    • kudlak

      The irony here is that this bill would have actually increased attacks upon religion, as many gays and lesbians, as well as their supporters and those who are not biased towards them, are actually also members of churches, albeit more liberal ones.

      February 27, 2014 at 8:19 am |
  18. Reality

    Religion is under attack everywhere:

    To wit for the new members of this blog–

    The Apostles' Creed 2014: (updated and based on the studies of historians and theologians of the past 200 years)

    Should I believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
    and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
    human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven??

    I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
    preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
    named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
    girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)

    Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
    the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,

    He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
    a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of
    Jerusalem.

    Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by
    many semi-fiction writers. A descent into Hell, a bodily resurrection
    and ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
    Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
    grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
    and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
    called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.

    Amen
    (references used are available upon request)

    February 27, 2014 at 6:59 am |
  19. TruthPrevails1

    It appears that Dala, Austin, dddevin to name a few suffer from HUA syndrome...hopefully they learn to reverse this soon!

    February 27, 2014 at 5:24 am |
    • sam stone

      It does.

      Particularly in Austin's case

      February 27, 2014 at 5:56 am |
      • TruthPrevails1

        Austin's a special brand though...I worry for the safety of society with him roaming the streets freely.

        February 27, 2014 at 5:58 am |
    • ausphor

      Does anyone else miss our Topher? Just when two movies based on the myth are coming out, Noah and Son of God, can you imagine the comedy relief Topher would have provided with his posts. Sigh.

      February 27, 2014 at 8:51 am |
      • TruthPrevails1

        Hard to miss someone who thinks creationism is still taught in every school.
        My worry with those movies is they will be taken literally and not as the fiction they are. I'm looking forward to watching Noah...it should be good for a laugh and Russel Crowe is in it.

        February 27, 2014 at 9:00 am |
        • ausphor

          TP1
          I don't know if you caught Dala..'s response yesterday as to which church he attends, it was Eighth Day Resurrected Covenant of the Holy Trinity. This is a fictional church created by the comedy show 30 Rock, a parody. Have to conclude that all of Dala..'s posts are just trolling for his own amusement. No one should take him seriously.

          February 27, 2014 at 9:17 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          ausphor: No I didn't catch and given that I've never watched 30 Rock I wouldn't have known that. Too funny...sad in an odd sort of way.

          February 27, 2014 at 9:37 am |
        • Doris

          Gosh, are those movies out already? It's probably too late, but they should include odorama cards for that movie, you know, so you can really get the feeling of how it smells on the ark with each of the thousands of animals..

          February 27, 2014 at 9:22 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Son of God is out tomorrow, Noah some time in March.
          The movies should also come with the disclaimer stating they are not based on true events.

          February 27, 2014 at 9:38 am |
        • ausphor

          Doris
          They both will be out soon, promos on TV now. It looks like they are going to portray as a ancient action hero with a penchant for mammals, the scratch and sniff cards would be a nice touch. The Son of God thingy has all sorts of modern special effects in the promo, suprising they didn't film in 3D, jesus rising from the tomb right into the theatre.

          February 27, 2014 at 9:31 am |
        • ausphor

          portray Noah, sorry.

          February 27, 2014 at 9:33 am |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          ausphor,

          Dala told me last week or so that he attended an ELCA Lutheran Church as well as a non-demoninational, possibly Unitarian. He knew the basic teaching of the ELCA brand so at that point I tended to think he was for real. Lately he has just been trolling so I think you may be right.

          February 27, 2014 at 9:47 am |
        • ausphor

          Cheese
          I once had a teacher that would shoot down the class clowns with the line "If you are trying to be a smart ass, it would work better if you were actually smart." Dala.. is all over the board in his posts never consistent, that line applies to him.

          February 27, 2014 at 10:00 am |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          I absolutely agree. He was in full troll mode last night.

          February 27, 2014 at 10:21 am |
        • doobzz

          I saw an extended trailer for Noah a few days ago, and the special effects looked pretty good. For me, it's like going to see Thor, 300 or any other movie based on mythology. Plus, Russell Crowe has nice legs.

          February 27, 2014 at 12:21 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          That post about the 30 Rock reference was in pure jest. 🙂 I thought I made that obvious.

          haha. I love you trying to figure me out, and giving reports to other people.

          February 27, 2014 at 1:00 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          "haha. I love you trying to figure me out, and giving reports to other people."

          Behavior of a troll....bigot Jesus loves you!

          February 27, 2014 at 2:16 pm |
      • Apple Bush

        Maybe you should try a new name to bait him in....how about "tophstin"

        February 27, 2014 at 2:39 pm |
    • Dalahäst

      I like giving the hostile regular haters a taste of their own medicine. Apparently they don't like it.

      Watch 'em dodge, dance and not answer! Yea!

      February 27, 2014 at 10:38 am |
      • ausphor

        Dala...
        Pity is not the same thing as hate. ;-);)

        February 27, 2014 at 10:46 am |
        • Dalahäst

          Right. They are not just pitying. It is hate. That is why some are committing acts of hypocrisy and double-standards. They are blind to their own flaws.

          February 27, 2014 at 10:48 am |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          "That is why some are committing acts of hypocrisy and double-standards. They are blind to their own flaws."

          Just like Jesus...

          February 27, 2014 at 10:53 am |
        • ausphor

          Dala..
          I think you are describing yourself , you can't even make a clear statement of what you believe? Poe.

          February 27, 2014 at 11:01 am |
        • Dalahäst

          ausphor

          What? All you do is tell me what you imagine I think and believe.

          You never say what you believe, unless it is in regards to me.

          You are creeping me out, buddy.

          February 27, 2014 at 1:04 pm |
        • joey3467

          Since you won't tell us exactly what it is you believe we are left to imagine and assume. So far I know that you call out bigotry, except I haven't seen you call out this law so I am not sure if I believe you or not.

          February 27, 2014 at 1:57 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          joey,

          Dala believes anything he wants to as long as it has not been specifically falsified by science. And besides, he is a troll, he won't have an honest discussion...that is not his goal.

          February 27, 2014 at 2:52 pm |
      • TruthPrevails1

        Dala: I don't hate you any more that I hate your god. I do care that your beliefs are not in the public square and not impeding on the rights of people.
        I do wonder when christians are going to wake up and stop their silly battles about certain issues from their book of multiple choice...issues that affect equal rights and in some cases privacy.

        February 27, 2014 at 11:39 am |
        • Dalahäst

          So you feel only your beliefs should be allowed in the "public square"?

          Guess what? We live in a democracy. The majority rules. You solution seems to be have your beliefs only in the public square? Quit with your whining and persecution complex.

          Go to your "public square" and do something! Quit whining about it online. It doesn't change anything.

          February 27, 2014 at 11:45 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          My Secular beliefs??? It is a SECULAR country!
          I don't have a book of doctrine-you do; Jehovah's do; Jews Do; Muslims do, etc.
          I therefore am not trying to use a belief system to tell others how to live.
          Majority doesn't rule, not in country where it is based on SECULAR law! I know that breaks your heart...reality sometimes sucks.
          We're not the ones whining that our non-existent holy books rules are not being paid attention to-LGBT rights violates your beliefs; women having control over their bodies violates your rights-I care that you don't get to stop that stuff.
          If Atheists have a persecution complex-awesome! Christians have attempted to shut us up for a great many year and in some cases have prevailed. It is time you were pushed back to your churches and made to respect everyone's rights in the Secular country you reside and thus the laws that you must abide by.
          You're telling me to stop whining but your little hissy fit says you're a hypocrite...you too should stop whining. Until you have solid evidence backed by scientific data, you'll continue to hear from us.
          Just as you may think our opinions don't change anything, nor do yours any more.

          February 27, 2014 at 11:59 am |
        • Dalahäst

          Calm down. Your beliefs are not more "secular", thus, acceptable than mine.

          I support a secular government. Our mostly Christian forefather/mother citizens set it up to be that way.

          But saying I can't bring my beliefs into the "public square" is a strange notion.

          Are you a secularist? Did you know some atheists oppose secularism?

          February 27, 2014 at 12:16 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Definition of SECULARISM
          : indifference to or rejection or exclusion of religion and religious considerations

          Exactly who was christian??? If anything they were Deist!

          When you bring your beliefs to the public square, it is usually done with the intent of imposing them on others, so in that regard...no you can't.

          Name me an Atheist that rejects Secularism!

          February 27, 2014 at 1:22 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          We live in a predominately Christian nation that embraces secularism. If they didn't they wouldn't allow it. And you couldn't stop it.

          http://www.salon.com/2012/09/09/secularists_are_not_atheists/

          February 27, 2014 at 1:30 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Predominantly christian does not mean that christianity rules in the slightest.
          So you're saying the only reason America is allowed to be Secular is because christians allow it?
          Now I know for sure that you're ready for the asylum!

          February 27, 2014 at 1:44 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          No, that is not what I'm saying.

          But most Christians support a secular government. It is a predominately Christian nation. And has been for a long time. And that is reflected in our "public square".

          February 27, 2014 at 1:46 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          So what? How would you like it if all of a sudden christians were no longer the majority and Muslims were? Would you like having to live in accordance to their beliefs?
          Keep your beliefs out of laws and out of schools and out of the personal homes of others.

          February 27, 2014 at 1:49 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          I would keep fighting for those that have no voice, like I do now. That is my belief.

          I'm not going to keep those beliefs out of the voting booth or schools.

          Whine all you want on message boards. Do you actually do anything, or just talk about it?

          February 27, 2014 at 2:12 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          "Lately, however, we have begun to hear from atheists or non-believers who strike a rather different, less belligerent tone. These “New, New Atheists”, to borrow the physicist Jim Al-Khalili’s phrase, are the inheritors of Coleridge. They separate their atheism from their secularism and argue that a secular state need not demand of the religious that they put their most cherished beliefs to one side when they enter public debate; only that they shouldn’t expect those beliefs to be accepted without scepticism."

          http://www.newstatesman.com/lifestyle/religion/2013/03/god-dead-long-live-our-souls

          Reason is prevailing. Thank evolution!

          February 27, 2014 at 1:36 pm |
        • In Santa We Trust

          Dala, We live in a republic with protections built-in for minorities so it is not automatic that what a majority want is what happens. One such protection is the separation of church and state, so in theory at least the majority, who happen to be christian, do not get to implement their beliefs. The example often given and just as often ignored – how would Christians feel if Hindus or Muslims somehow became the majority and wanted their beliefs as law and on public buildings? That's how non- Christians feel when Christians do it.

          February 27, 2014 at 1:58 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          In Santa: Thank you for phrasing it better than I could.

          February 27, 2014 at 2:00 pm |
        • joey3467

          TruthPrevails, it does seem that far to many Christians don't realize that one day they may not be in the majority, and that by trying to encode their beliefs into law they are setting a precedent that may be used against them in the future.

          February 27, 2014 at 2:00 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          joey: I'm not certain how they remain blind to it. We can go back in history and show many things where they have tried and failed.

          February 27, 2014 at 2:07 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          Right, Santa. I support our system. And so do most Christians. They want others to have a voice. The system was voted into place by the majority, who happened to be Christian.

          February 27, 2014 at 3:29 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Once again majority does not rule!!! Read on and educate yourself and stop making crap up when you have no idea what you're talking about...you only look like a fool
          This is the Appeal to Popularity:

          "The Appeal to Popularity has the following form:

          1) Most people approve of X (have favorable emotions towards X).
          2) Therefore X is true.

          The basic idea is that a claim is accepted as being true simply because most people are favorably inclined towards the claim. More formally, the fact that most people have favorable emotions associated with the claim is substituted in place of actual evidence for the claim. A person falls prey to this fallacy if he accepts a claim as being true simply because most other people approve of the claim.

          It is clearly fallacious to accept the approval of the majority as evidence for a claim. For example, suppose that a skilled speaker managed to get most people to absolutely love the claim that 1+1=3. It would still not be rational to accept this claim simply because most people approved of it. After all, mere approval is no substitute for a mathematical proof. At one time people approved of claims such as "the world is flat", "humans cannot survive at speeds greater than 25 miles per hour", "the sun revolves around the earth" but all these claims turned out to be false.

          This sort of "reasoning" is quite common and can be quite an effective persusasive device. Since most humans tend to conform with the views of the majority, convincing a person that the majority approves of a claim is often an effective way to get him to accept it. Advertisers often use this tactic when they attempt to sell products by claiming that everyone uses and loves their products. In such cases they hope that people will accept the (purported) approval of others as a good reason to buy the product. "
          http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-popularity.html

          February 27, 2014 at 3:49 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          The majority rules.

          I'm not making an "Appeal to Popularity". Sorry. I'm not. I'm just saying those in power make the rules we play by.

          February 27, 2014 at 4:01 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Dala: Keep spinning it! You can claim what you wish but I have shown you how you are wrong. How many more instances and reference points must be shown to you before you admit you are wrong or does admitting to being wrong scare you? Are you one of those people who has to be right always or you throw a 5 year old like temper tantrum?

          February 27, 2014 at 4:08 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          I'm not throwing a tantrum.

          I just think basic human history shows that the majority rules. And that is usually unfair. I'm grateful I live in America that attempts to give a voice to the minority. Because often I am in the minority.

          The "Appeal to Popularity" fallacy only goes when I'm trying to make something appear factual because a majority of the people believe it.

          That is not my point.

          My point is the majority of the people in the US have supported a government that serves all, not just one religion. Not even the most popular religion.

          February 27, 2014 at 4:14 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          YES you are!!

          I showed you how you are wrong and you came back still denying it.
          In saying MAJORITY RULES you are Appealing to Popularity...stop trying to spin this to fit your delusions.
          Geez you and Austin should look in to sharing a bouncy room together at the local asylum...you're both infected badly with the religion virus...it has caused a blockage and you need help to cure yourself of it before it is too late.

          February 27, 2014 at 4:31 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          No, you just misunderstand. Miscommunication.

          That is fine.

          I'm saying "the majority rules", as a basic fact of life. But our democratic system attempts to protect the rights of the minority. Something that lots of people, atheist and non-atheist agree is important. It is a principle our country was founded on. The majority of the people allowed this system to be put in place.

          February 27, 2014 at 4:36 pm |
        • AtheistSteve

          "We live in a predominately Christian nation that embraces secularism. If they didn't they wouldn't allow it. And you couldn't stop it."

          Actually it isn't predominant...not really. Catholics are a minority, Baptists are a minority, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Mormons, Jehovahs and each of the other thousands of denominations are all minorities. Most disagree with the practices, interpretation and doctrine of the other sects and many consider anyone who isn't in their particular church as "not true Christians". J.W.s who come to my door are invited in and I explain as best I can why I reject all Bible stories as nonsense. They present their arguments and I provide the usual refutations. After a while there isn't anything a Christian can come up with that hasn't already been shot down countless times(and that's true on this blog as well). But if I ask them who is most likely to slam the door in their faces it's other non-Jehovah Christians.
          But curiously if a news item or talking head does or says something to highlight religious intolerance or bigotry that is supported by scripture then all of a sudden the solidarity umbrella is extended to include everyone who has ever looked sideways at the Bible. They have even gone so far as to claim "We are a Judeo-Christian nation." That's equivalent to saying "I'm part of a vast group of people who disagree on pretty much everything."

          February 27, 2014 at 4:36 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          Good points.

          February 27, 2014 at 5:03 pm |
  20. Blessed are the Cheesemakers

    {a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc. : a bigoted person; especially : a person who hates or refuses to accept the members of a particular group (such as a racial or religious group)}

    That describes Jesus to a T.

    (T... get it?)

    February 27, 2014 at 1:49 am |
    • derado8

      Dear Society

      First you tell me that Jesus loved everyone and that I should do likewise, and I tried.

      Then you tell me Jesus was bad or didn't exist, so I embraced misanthrope and it was finally a good fit.

      Please don't tell me he existed and was a bigot because that would mean there was some segment of humanity that I'd be required to like and at this point I just can't do it.

      February 27, 2014 at 5:30 am |
      • Doc Vestibule

        I've always said that the best way to eliminate racism is to embrace misanthropy.
        Racism is too limiting.

        But really – I hope you don't think that non-believers hate everybody.
        Rejection of the supernatural doesn't lead to depression, hate or an unfulfilling life devoid of meaning.

        February 27, 2014 at 8:15 am |
        • derado8

          "Rejection of the supernatural doesn't lead to depression, hate or an unfulfilling life devoid of meaning."

          True, for me I've found it to be a result of deep thought. 😉

          February 27, 2014 at 12:53 pm |
      • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

        lol....I really like that derado.

        You have nothing to worry about, the chances Jesus existed as he is described in the bible are pretty low. I was more talking about how his character is described. Dala has been on a "bigot" kick. So just to clarify I loocked up the definition of the word (being intorerant, esp concerning religion). Well Jesus wasn't tolerant of any other religion...ergo he was a bigot.

        February 27, 2014 at 9:18 am |
        • derado8

          Glad you appreciate bleak humor BAC, it keeps me running 🙂

          February 27, 2014 at 12:57 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          I love bleak humor...I don't know who said it but I have always like the line "I'm not racist...I hate everybody" (I don't...I just like it).

          I liked your expansion of the idea....the "oh no...now I have to go back to liking "some" people"....that made me laugh.

          February 27, 2014 at 1:06 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.