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February 28th, 2014
12:24 PM ET

Homeless Jesus statue sparking debate

(CNN)–A sculpture of Jesus as a homeless man installed outside a church causing some controversy, as WCNC's Tony Burbank reports.

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Belief • Christianity • Episcopal • Houses of worship • Jesus

soundoff (528 Responses)
  1. Dalahäst

    ~~Don't worry about anything, instead pray about everything. Tell God your needs and don't forget to thank him for his answers.
    If you do this you will experience God's peace, which is far more wonderful than the human mind can understand.~~

    March 4, 2014 at 6:06 pm |
    • kudlak

      Dalahäst
      "Don't worry about anything, instead pray about everything."

      Why not say "Don't worry about anything. Instead, think about finding solutions to the things that worry you"? Unless you can demonstrate otherwise, that's probably what's actually happening, right?

      March 4, 2014 at 6:33 pm |
      • Dalahäst

        No. It has been demonstrated to me that God's ways are more wonderful than your ways.

        March 4, 2014 at 6:48 pm |
        • kudlak

          Can you offer proof of this? I am pretty wonderful, after all! just ask my wife! 😉

          March 4, 2014 at 9:18 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          It has been proven to me.

          March 4, 2014 at 10:27 pm |
    • bostontola

      Dalahast,
      It is all a metter of taste I suppose. I prefer to worry, collaborate with people to find solutions, then execute. Even if I believed in God, I would follow that process. Peace is not my goal in life, though it is nice when available. Satisfaction from struggle, helping others do the same, is better for me. But to each his own.

      March 4, 2014 at 7:01 pm |
      • Dalahäst

        I worry, collaborate with people to find solutions and execute them on my own, too. Peace is a way of life, not the goal.

        March 4, 2014 at 7:09 pm |
        • bostontola

          "Don't worry about anything, instead pray about everything" Your words, not mine.

          March 4, 2014 at 7:40 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          I was quoting somebody else, actually. To some it makes sense, to others it may not. It gives me strength.

          "Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and pet-ition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus."

          – Philippians 4

          March 4, 2014 at 8:00 pm |
        • doobzz

          Ctrl V

          March 13, 2014 at 6:17 pm |
    • Reality

      The Apostles' Creed 2013 (updated by yours truly based on the studies of NT historians and theologians of the past 200 years)

      Should I believe in a god whose existence cannot be proven
      and said god if he/she/it exists resides in an unproven,
      human-created, spirit state of bliss called heaven?????

      I believe there was a 1st century CE, Jewish, simple,
      preacher-man who was conceived by a Jewish carpenter
      named Joseph living in Nazareth and born of a young Jewish
      girl named Mary. (Some say he was a mamzer.)

      Jesus was summarily crucified for being a temple rabble-rouser by
      the Roman troops in Jerusalem serving under Pontius Pilate,

      He was buried in an unmarked grave and still lies
      a-mouldering in the ground somewhere outside of
      Jerusalem.

      Said Jesus' story was embellished and "mythicized" by
      many semi-fiction writers. A bodily resurrection and
      ascension stories were promulgated to compete with the
      Caesar myths. Said stories were so popular that they
      grew into a religion known today as Catholicism/Christianity
      and featuring dark-age, daily wine to blood and bread to body rituals
      called the eucharistic sacrifice of the non-atoning Jesus.

      Amen
      (References used are available upon request.)

      March 5, 2014 at 7:47 am |
    • igaftr

      "If you do this you will experience God's peace, which is far more wonderful than the human mind can understand"

      If you can't understand it, how do you know it is from any gods?
      You claim it has been proven to you. How did you exclude ALL other possibilities, including the ones you do not even know about?

      If you haven't excluded the other possibilities, then it is simply you deluding yourself into belief, based on what you want.

      March 5, 2014 at 11:23 am |
      • Dalahäst

        I keep an open mind. Other human beings have had similar experiences. My years of inquiry, testing and studying have led me to believe that God has grant me the peace and serenity I experience today.

        I am not simply deluding myself into belief based on what I want.

        March 5, 2014 at 11:46 am |
        • igaftr

          Then it could be satan messing with you, a completely different god or gods, co-incidence, alien mind control...the list goes on and on, but you chose "god".
          You HAVE chosen it to be "god" because that concept fits your belief.

          March 5, 2014 at 12:25 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          Nope. You have chosen to believe I have chosen it to be "god" because that concept fits your belief.

          You are clearly projecting your beliefs one me.

          March 5, 2014 at 2:00 pm |
        • idiotusmaximus

          Serenity and stupidity are very similar.....you can find quiet and peace in both of them......

          March 13, 2014 at 6:11 pm |
    • idiotusmaximus

      Lololololololololololololololololoololol.......the bible is fiction and what's sad is that the people who believe it to be real have never bother to investigate where it came from....maybe because they're afraid it's as fictional as it reads.

      March 13, 2014 at 6:08 pm |
  2. Dyslexic doG

    Jesus was just David Koresh 2000 years earlier. A sociopathic conman with a good story and lots of charisma. All this foolishness, without a shred of proof, has sprung up from there.

    utter, mind numbing nonsense.

    March 4, 2014 at 3:33 pm |
    • kudlak

      Jesus in the Gospels doesn't sound like a sociopath. Maybe you can say that about the Christ character in Revelation, or Old Testament God, but Jesus just sounds like a fairly meek wandering preacher who actually seems to have had a few wise things to say. He may have had some delusion of being a god, or maybe that was just something that later became part of his legend. We may never know, but he just doesn't seem like a Koresh.

      March 4, 2014 at 6:42 pm |
      • thesamyaza

        you need to learn about psychopathy, I'm a psychopath and people say the something about me, they said the same thing about Dahmer to.

        Psychopathy Checklist-Revised: Factors

        Facet 1: Interpersonal

        Glibness/superficial charm
        Grandiose sense of self-worth
        Pathological lying
        Cunning/manipulative

        Facet 2: Affective

        Lack of remorse or guilt
        Emotionally shallow
        Callous/lack of empathy
        Failure to accept responsibility for own actions

        Facet 3: Lifestyle

        Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
        Parasitic lifestyle
        Lack of realistic, long-term goals
        Impulsivity
        Irresponsibility

        Facet 4: Antisocial

        Poor behavioral controls
        Early behavioral problems
        Juvenile delinquency
        Revocation of conditional release
        Criminal versatility

        Many short-term marital relationships
        Promiscuous sexual behavior

        sounds like Christ just like my is a minor sociopath

        March 5, 2014 at 8:31 pm |
    • idiotusmaximus

      Actually REAL history does not record anyone named Jesus....and to get real...Jesus is not even a name that was ever used in the mid-east.....and Bethlehem the place where this fictional person was supposed to have been born ....the REAL ANTHROPOLOGIST AND HISTORIANS are still looking for it....and question its existence.

      March 13, 2014 at 6:16 pm |
  3. Reality

    Instead of purchasing expensive "statues", the topic church should monetarily support organizations like Project HOME:

    "Project HOME empowers people to break the cycle of homelessness, address the structural causes of poverty, and attain their fullest potential as members of society. "

    http://www.projecthome.org/

    And the one of the largest financial supporters of Project HOME: USA taxpayers, bless us all !!! (guidestar.org)

    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    March 3, 2014 at 5:08 pm |
  4. snowr14

    Actually, this would be the most accurate depiction of jesus (if the man according to the texts really existed). Notice there was no mention of his home in any book? Ever the wanderer, ever the man among people.

    Sadly, it is people's own image of how they want to see him that is conflicting with his true self

    March 3, 2014 at 3:23 pm |
    • Vic

      That is only one aspect of Jesus Christ

      The message and purpose of the sculpture were inspired by Jesus Christ's saying:

      Matthew 25:40
      "40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’" (NASB)

      The churches are already helping feed and shelter the homeless. So, in essence, if you feed and shelter the homeless, you are feeding and sheltering the Lord Jesus Christ. That's the message.

      March 3, 2014 at 4:23 pm |
      • sam stone

        Translated, edited hearsay. Very impressive

        March 4, 2014 at 3:55 am |
        • kudlak

          Vic said "So, in essence, if you feed and shelter the homeless, you are feeding and sheltering the Lord Jesus Christ. That's the message."

          Not everyone who feeds and shelters the homeless is doing it for Jesus, right? It comes off here like Vic's claiming that everyone does.

          March 4, 2014 at 9:15 pm |
        • kudlak

          Meant that for the fellows below, sorry!

          March 4, 2014 at 9:17 pm |
      • kudlak

        Vic
        So, you're claiming that nobody ever fed or sheltered the homeless before Jesus was born? Seriously?!?

        Compassionate people of every faith, and without any faith at all, have fed the poor and sheltered the homeless long before Christianity came around. Doesn't that suggest that it's just something that compassionate people do? That's the common denominator, not your Lord Jesus Christ.

        March 4, 2014 at 5:14 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          That is not at all what he said.

          March 4, 2014 at 6:55 pm |
        • Vic

          I have no idea what you are talking about.

          We are talking about a specific case here, the sculpture, it was inspired by Jesus Christ's saying in Matthew 25 about feeding the hungry and sheltering the homeless.

          March 4, 2014 at 8:30 pm |
        • kudlak

          Vic said "So, in essence, if you feed and shelter the homeless, you are feeding and sheltering the Lord Jesus Christ. That's the message."

          Not everyone who feeds and shelters the homeless is doing it for Jesus, right? It comes off here like Vic's claiming that everyone does..

          March 4, 2014 at 9:16 pm |
        • Vic

          I am talking about Christians and the Christian Churches in response to the OP.

          March 5, 2014 at 3:43 pm |
  5. theophileo

    "Using the sculpture to pray..."

    Wow, OK, I know that Jesus said "The Son of man has nowhere to lay His head," and I thought that's what the sculpture was about, and when the guy said that it helps us to identify with those whom we're supposed to help, I though that it was OK...

    But when they showed people sitting next to, and either praying TO or praying THROUGH the statue, that was when it became idolatry...

    As I said in another blog, God has no tolerance for worshipping idols, OR worshipping God through an image. That's what the 2nd Commandment was all about. The lesson of Nadab and Abihu is that we must worship the right God in the prescribed way. Anything else is idolatry, and that man who supposedly speaks for God as a shepherd should know better than to set an example of idolatry by using that sculpture to pray to God.

    March 3, 2014 at 2:56 pm |
    • igaftr

      "we must worship the right God in the prescribed way"

      As if you knew what that was. You don't even know if any "gods" actually exist.

      Thousands of gods men have worshipped. over 100 Creator gods, over 400 "one true" gods.

      March 3, 2014 at 3:04 pm |
      • theophileo

        You attempt an argument from the lesser to the greater, but it doesn't work in this case. You as.sume that because YOU do not personally know if any "gods" exist, then NO ONE knows if any "gods" exist. But you cannot logically make that as.sumption unless you know everything.

        March 3, 2014 at 3:11 pm |
        • igaftr

          I know that no one as yet has presented any verifiable evidence of any gods.

          On the other hand , there is vast evidence that men made them all up.
          You speak as if belief were truth, but all you really have is you wanting your belief to be truth, and you have nothing that proves it. You have accepted less than solid evidence, and proclaim it to be true.
          Many things that happen to people, many experiences that get attributed to gods, but nothing showing any actual gods.

          March 3, 2014 at 3:20 pm |
        • snowr14

          flip side.. is always fun..

          You can not make the assumption that what you follow is the one true way without knowing everything either.

          March 3, 2014 at 3:25 pm |
        • theophileo

          "I know that no one as yet has presented any verifiable evidence of any gods."
          ----------
          Wrong. There is the evidence of fulfilled prophecy. There is the evidence of history. There is the evidence of nature. Though instead of recognizing these, you have set your heart like flint against the idea of a God with whom you will one day become accountable.

          March 4, 2014 at 7:28 am |
        • theophileo

          You can not make the assumption that what you follow is the one true way without knowing everything either.
          --------–
          Wrong. If you are locked in a large room surrounded by hundreds of doors, and on your 5th try, you find an unlocked door, and the way out of the room, is it any longer necessary to try ALL of the other doors to find the way out?
          No. Once you have discovered truth, it is no longer necessary to experiment with ALL of the other claims to truth. Your logic fails.

          Logic and reason have been applied to the search for truth, and it is through logic and reason that all claimants to truth outside of the God of the Bible have been removed as fallacy.

          March 4, 2014 at 7:33 am |
        • Doc Vestibule

          @Theo
          While proximate truth can be ascertained through the application of logic and reason, ultimate "Truth" cannot.
          Your "Truth" is not universally accepted as such, ergo the jury is still out.
          To say without doubt that your God, your church and your interpretation of your holy book is the One Truth is nothing short of arrogance.
          Who is to say that Angus, Belenos, Brigid, dana, Lugh, Dagda, Epona, Aphrodite, Apollo, Ares, Artemis, Atehna, Demeter, Dionysus, Eris, Eos, Gaia, Hades, Hekate, Helios, Hephaestus, Hera, hermes, Hestia, Pan, Poseidon, Selene, Uranus, Zeus, Mathilde, Elves, Eostre, Frigg, Hretha, Saxnot, Shef, Thuno, Tir, Weyland, Woden, Alfar, Balder, Beyla, Bil, Bragi, Byggvir, Dagr, Disir, Eir, Forseti, Freya, Freyr, Frigga, Heimdall, Hel, Hoenir, Idunn, Jord, Lofn, Loki, Mon, Njord, Norns, Nott, Odin, Ran, saga, Sif, Siofn, Skadi, Snotra, Sol, Syn, Ull, Thor, Tyr, Var, Vali, Vidar, Vor, Black Shuck, Herne, Jack in the Green, Holda, Nehalennia, Nerthus, endovelicus, Ataegina, Runesocesius, Apollo, Bacchus, Ceres, Cupid, Diana, Janus, Juno, Jupiter, Maia, Mars, Mercury, Minerva, Neptune, Pluto, Plutus, Proserpina, Venus, Vesta, Vulcan, Attis, Cybele, El-Gabal, Isis, Mithras, Sol Invictus, Endovelicus, Anubis, Aten, Atum, Bast, Bes, Geb, Hapi, Hathor, Heget, Horus, Imhotep, Isis, Khepry, Khnum, Maahes, Ma’at, Menhit, Mont, Naunet, Neith, Nephthys, Nut, Osiris, Ptah, ra, Sekhmnet, Sobek, Set, Tefnut, Thoth, An, Anshar, Anu, Apsu, Ashur, Damkina, Ea, Enki, Enlil, Ereshkigal, Nunurta, Hadad, Inanna, Ishtar, Kingu, Kishar, Marduk, Mummu, Nabu, Nammu, Nanna, Nergal, Ninhursag, Ninlil, Nintu, Shamash, Sin, Tiamat, Utu, Mitra, Amaterasu, Susanoo, Tsukiyomi, Inari, Tengu, Izanami, Izanagi, Daikoku, Ebisu, Benzaiten, Bishamonten, Fu.kurokuju, Jurojin, Hotei, Quetzalcoatl, Tlaloc, Inti, Kon, Mama Cocha, Mama Quilla, Manco Capac, Pachacamac, Viracoc.ha, or Zaramama aren't true gods?
          How can the Tanakh, Talmud, Midrash, New Testament, Quran, Sunnah, Nahjul Balagha, Avesta, Vedas, Upanisahds, Bhagavad Gita, Puranas, Tantras, Sutras, Vachanas, Adi Granth, Purvas, Samayasara, Niyamasara, Pravacanasara, and Pancastikaya; Anupreksa; Samadhishataka of Pujyapada; Tattvarthasutra of Umasvati, Tattvarthasutra, Pali Tripitaka, Jataka,, Visuddimagga, Tripitaka, Lotus Sutra, Garland Sutra, Analects; the Great Learning; the Doctrine of the Mean; the Mencius, Tao Te Ching, Chuang-tzu, Kojiki, Nihon Shoki, K-oki, Ofudesaki, Mikagura-uta, Michi-no-Shiori, Johrei, Goseigen, Netarean Shower of Holy Doctrines, Chun Boo Kyung, Kitab-i-Iqan, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, Book of Mormon, Dianetics, or Revelation X be dismissed as Holy Books since they all claim to be The Truth?
          If you're a Bible adherent, how do you know whether Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, oriental Orthodox, As.syrian, Byzantine, Lutheran, Anglican, Presbyterian, Anabaptism, Brethren, Methodist, Pietism, Apostolic, Pentocostal, Charismatic, African Initiated, United, Quakers, Couthcotti.tism, Millerism, British-Isrealism, Latter Day Saints, Mennonite, 7th day Adventism, Kelleyism, Co.oneyism, Shakers, Methernitha, Strigolniki, Yehowism, Christadelphians, Christian Science, doukhobors, Iglesia ni Cristo, Makuya, Molokans, Subbotniks, Ebionism, Martinism, Rosicrucians, Rastafarianism, Santo Daime, or Umbanda is the REAL interpretation of your God's words?
          If the One True Deity, shaper of The Universe, wishes their words to be transmitted and adhered to, they should have been a bit less ambiguous. Expecting people to select The Truth out of limitless possibilities on faith alone seems a sloppy way to run things – especially if the punishment for a wrong choice is eternal torment.

          March 4, 2014 at 8:10 am |
        • igaftr

          theo
          " There is the evidence of fulfilled prophecy. There is the evidence of history. There is the evidence of nature"
          No. Those are noyt evidence, there is no fulfilled prophecy, history and nature are not indications of any gods.
          I have not hardened myself to it, you have simply accepted NO evidence as if it were evidence, you accept it blindly, and you admit it in the next post. You want it to be true, so proclaim it to be true, which it does not appear to be.

          Just because I understand the criteria of verifiable evidence, and you choose to blindly accept, does not mena anything is wrong with me. I guess you were the one born in that minute.

          March 4, 2014 at 8:13 am |
        • Doc Vestibule

          @Theo
          And you can't in good conscience ignore the fulfilled prophecies of other religions if that is a criteria for determining which is "The Truth".
          Mormons say that they've got plenty of specific prophecies that have been fulfilled – they can show you the evidence.
          Jehovah's Witnesses maintain that their specific prophecies have also come true.
          Islam has a list too, just like almost every other religion that has ever existed.

          Of course, the authors of the New Testament were well aware of the Messianic prophecies of the Old Testament.
          There are a number of instances in which the authors, shall we say, stretched the truth so that Jesus could fulfill them, beginning with the tale of His birth.
          The story goes that Joseph and his heavily pregnant wife had to travel to Bethlehem in order to be "taxed and counted".
          The Roman Empire did indeed take a census at regular intervals. Thanks to their meticilous record keeping, we've proof of when these surveys took place and of the methodology used to execute them.
          The Gospels of Luke and Matthew both place Christ's birth during the reign of King Herod,but he died in 4BCE, some 10 years before the only Roman Census that comes close to the time of Christ's birth (in 7CE) by Emperor Quirinius.
          Furthermore, Joseph would not have had to travel to his ancestral home (1,000 years later)to be taxed and counted. The Roman Empire employed roving assessors for such jobs and had been doing so for centuries.

          I have my own prophecy that is coming to pass as we speak.
          The end of the world is nigh, but it won't be the Mayan apocalypse, the Rapture or Ragnarok.
          The signs of our funky, butt wiggling demise are evident to those with eyes to see and ears to hear.
          3 of the 4 Nordic Disco Bands of the "A"pocalypse have made themselves known – Abba, Aqua and Ace of Bass.
          When the A-Teens came on the scene, I stocked my bomb shelter but breathed a sigh of relief when I learned they were just a cover band.
          But make no mistake – groovy doom is coming at 120 beats per minute.

          March 4, 2014 at 8:33 am |
        • theophileo

          The existence of a Creator God is a logical necessity, and it is the only viable explanation for the existence of our physical universe.

          Infinite causal chains do not exist, since an infinite causal chain could not explain how the causal chain began to be in the first place.

          The very existence of the causal chain that is our physical universe demands the existence of a first cause, and, since infinite causal chains do not exist, that first cause must itself be eternal. Since the first cause is outside of physical reality, and eternal, it can be nothing other than God.

          Furthermore, it cannot be argued that the first cause itself had a cause, or you err in creating an infinite regress – an infinite causal chain that cannot exist.

          To deny the existence of an eternal creator who is outside of our physical reality is to dip into an illogical fantasy designed to fictionalize reality so that man may ease into a death without fear of contact with a God to whom they will one day be accountable.

          March 4, 2014 at 9:02 am |
        • igaftr

          theo
          "The existence of a Creator God is a logical necessity"

          Flat out false. No point in reading further.

          March 4, 2014 at 9:15 am |
        • Doc Vestibule

          We've been down this conversational road before.
          You're trying to avoid the loop of infinite regression in who created the Creator by putting an arbitrary cap on the causal chain and calling it "God".
          Which God is it?
          According to Ja.panese Shinto Mythology, at the beginning of time, the heavens and the earths were mixed together in a great cloud. Slowly, the clearer, lighter parts of the cloud rose up and became heaven. The heavier parts of the cloud descended and became an ocean of muddy water. Between the heavens and the earth, a pale green sprout began to grow. It grew swiftly and was extremely strong. When the plant’s flower burst open, the First God emerged. This First God then created Izanagi, is the god of all that is light and heavenly. Izanagi, whose name means "the male who invites", and his wife and sister Izanami, whose name means "the female who invites". The First God gave Izanagi the task of finishing the creation of the world.

          There is a Chinese creation myth that says the ancestors of mankind were the fleas and lice on the body of the God Pan Gu.
          In the beginning, Pan Gu escaped from the great universal egg by cracking it open with a broadaxe. The light part of the yolk floated up and became the heavens while the cold, hard part stayed below to form earth with Pan Gu standing between them like a pillar to keep the separated. When He died, His breath became the wind and clouds, His voice thunder, His eyes the sun and the moon, his beard and hair turned to the stars in the sky, His blood the water. His veins became roads and his muscles fertile land.

          In the Orphic stories. The Beginning was known as "Unaging Time", when nothing existed and nothing grew old and the Creator and ruler of time was Chronus. Along with Chronus in this realm was Adrasteia (meaning "necessity") and they joined to create primordial Spirit (energy) and Matter known as Aether.

          March 4, 2014 at 9:33 am |
        • theophileo

          Flat out false. No point in reading further.
          ---------–
          Ergo you are willfully ignorant "being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness." Eph. 4:18

          March 4, 2014 at 9:34 am |
        • Doc Vestibule

          To which God will we be accountable upon death?
          Will Odin deny you entry into Valhalla for failing to die on the field of battle?
          Will Osiris bar you from the Field of Rushes if your heart doesn't weigh up against a shu feather?
          Perhaps Aiakos, Rhadamanthys or Minos will cast you into Hades for failing their judgement.
          Have you learned the secret handshakes and password needed to get past Joseph Smith's ghost and into the Celestial Kingdom?

          March 4, 2014 at 9:38 am |
        • theophileo

          Doc,
          You cannot deny the logic of the necessity for a first cause that is itself uncaused.

          Logic demands that, in order to avoid infinite regress, that first cause MUST by NECESSITY be uncaused – eternal. Also, that uncaused eternal cause is not physical in nature.

          You err however in thinking that just because you have not found the truth about which God is the right God, then the truth cannot be known. That is like saying, since there are 1,000 doors out of this room, none of them actually lead out of this room. But you had to get INTO the room through one of them...

          March 4, 2014 at 9:40 am |
        • theophileo

          It is absolutely foolish to think that because you have not found truth amongst a world of truth claims, then truth does not exist.

          March 4, 2014 at 9:42 am |
        • igaftr

          theo
          No...I simply know that a "creator" is not required, nor is it logical. There are many theories and possibilities that do not include any gods.
          Gods do not appear to be required for anything, especially since there is no evidence anywhere of any gods.

          March 4, 2014 at 9:47 am |
        • theophileo

          There are many theories and possibilities that do not include any gods.
          -----------
          Just not any logical ones... How can the existence of the physical universe be described as having a purely physical beginning, since that would require physicality to exist before it existed? Or are you trying to make the case for infinite regress of the physical universe?

          March 4, 2014 at 9:52 am |
        • igaftr

          theo
          "You cannot deny the logic of the necessity for a first cause"

          Then what is the "first cause" of your god?

          Just another that doesn't understand the whole "first cause" stuff is NOT a logical argument.

          March 4, 2014 at 10:04 am |
        • igaftr

          theo
          "Just not any logical ones... " LOL

          There are NO logical arguments that could possibly include any gods until the existance of gods can be shown. You presume too much.

          March 4, 2014 at 10:08 am |
        • theophileo

          "Then what is the "first cause" of your god?"
          -------–
          Read the entire post before you respond next time.

          March 4, 2014 at 12:36 pm |
        • igaftr

          theo
          I did read it. You basically claim that everything that exists had a "first ause", except god.

          No logic at all to the "first cause" BS. None.
          It is just what they teach in religion "schoolls" to try to fill in that huge illogic hole in the whole dogma.

          March 4, 2014 at 12:40 pm |
        • Doris

          theo: "Infinite causal chains do not exist, since an infinite causal chain could not explain how the causal chain began to be in the first place. "

          Translation: "When I try to consider that there could be something for which there is no beginning, it makes me want to go poopy, so we'll just say say that everything has a beginning..."

          March 4, 2014 at 12:43 pm |
        • theophileo

          "You basically claim that everything that exists had a "first ause", "
          --------
          Not true, I never said that. Everything in our physical universe is linked into one causal chain that began to exist. It can be said another way – "Everything that begins to exist has a cause."

          Since our physical universe had a first cause, it must be outside of our physical reality, and it must be eternal.

          Avoiding infinite regress, that first cause could not have had a cause.

          March 4, 2014 at 12:53 pm |
        • Doris

          "it must be outside of our physical reality, and it must be eternal. "

          Complete conjecture. We have no idea. Vilenkin, for instance, warned not to make such ridiculous assumptions.

          March 4, 2014 at 12:58 pm |
        • theophileo

          Doris,
          Name one physical ent.ity whose existence cannot be explained by something else.

          However concrete physical reality is sectioned up, the result will be a state of affairs which owes its being to something other than itself. Every physical state, no matter how inclusive, has a necessary condition in some specific type of state which precedes it in time and is fully existent prior to the emergence of the state in which it conditions. There is not one example in the physical universe of a physical quant.ity that explains its own existence.

          March 4, 2014 at 12:59 pm |
        • theophileo

          Doris,
          So you're saying that the existence of our physical universe has a physical explanation? That would mean that the physical universe would have to exist before it existed in order to create itself. That's absurd.

          March 4, 2014 at 1:01 pm |
        • igaftr

          theo
          "That would mean that the physical universe would have to exist before it existed in order to create itself. That's absurd"

          Of course that's absurd, since you clearly don't understand what you are talking about. You are asking a question based on linear time, which time is not linear. Before, after, behing the box in the corner...Not relevant to time...only to OUR perception of time.

          It is actually possible that there have been many Big Bangs, the "next" one could actually happen "before" any of the ones that have happened by our observation of time. It well could be that this universe could spark into existance, be here for billions of years and then collapse in on itself, "before" it ever existed. Time is relative.

          Looking at time in a linear way is one huge problem with the BS "first cause" way of thinking. That's why it isn't taught that way in physics.

          March 4, 2014 at 1:10 pm |
        • Doris

          theo: "So you're saying that the existence of our physical universe has a physical explanation? "

          No, I'm not claiming that we know such. Claiming such would be idiotic like someone claiming "the Abrahamic God dun it". We simply don't know. As Vilenkin warned, there are different possibilities for what is beyond the BVG theorem regarding of a beginning to this universe. We simply don't know.

          March 4, 2014 at 1:13 pm |
        • theophileo

          Ideas of eternal inflation may make for interesting reading, but they are not based on observable facts.

          In order for one to believe in non-linear time, it must somehow step out of the realm of ideas and mathematics, and step into observable reality.

          Furthermore, the ideas of eternal inflation cannot be true since they violate the law of causality. They force our universe into a state of infinite regress which over and over has been proven to be an impossibility.

          March 4, 2014 at 1:17 pm |
        • igaftr

          theo
          "In order for one to believe in non-linear time, it must somehow step out of the realm of ideas and mathematics, and step into observable reality. "

          It already has. We have already been able to prove that time is relative to the observer. Since time is NOT a constant, it is also not linear. Since we only have one point of view, it APPEARS to be linear, but we have proven it is not.

          March 4, 2014 at 1:22 pm |
        • theophileo

          "We have already been able to prove that time is relative to the observer"
          --------–
          This may work in mathematics, but let's argue from the greater to the lesser. Time is a measurement of change, and because of the second law of thermodynamics, when things change, it is always to disorder and decay. If time is NOT linear, then it is possible that you will never die.

          If this is true in the micro, then it must be true in the macro.

          March 4, 2014 at 2:43 pm |
        • igaftr

          theo
          You clearly don't get it and when you try to inject micro/macro, your religious indoctrination comes right through...so lets ignore that since it has nothing to do with the subject.

          "Time is a measurement of change, and because of the second law of thermodynamics, when things change, it is always to disorder and decay. If time is NOT linear, then it is possible that you will never die. "

          Time is NOT a measure of change., and things do not always go to disorder and decay...that is a gross misrepresentation...as far as never...again a reference to linear time, showing you cannot let go of your single point of view of time.

          Your religious "training" is all over your false representations of physics laws. Stick to your imaginary god.

          March 4, 2014 at 2:57 pm |
        • theophileo

          igaftr,
          It's true, my understanding of the idea of non-linear time is certainly lacking, but then again, I tend to keep my studies to that which is real.

          So, if you would, give me the reader's digest version of how non-linear time can be observed, and apply that to you and I if you would please.

          March 4, 2014 at 3:02 pm |
        • Akira

          Has Live4Him resurfaced as theophileo?

          March 4, 2014 at 3:14 pm |
        • theophileo

          "Has Live4Him resurfaced as theophileo?"
          ---------
          No.

          I just don't agree with time in the "tradition of Leibniz and Kant." I prefer to stay with what can be observed. That is, linear time as seen in the ticking of a clock. Instances come and instances go... That's it. It may be simplistic, but it makes logical sense. Anything else dives headfirst into philosophy and belief.

          March 4, 2014 at 3:23 pm |
        • Akira

          "No."

          Thanks for answering.

          March 4, 2014 at 3:35 pm |
        • Dyslexic doG

          so theo ... if a creator is necessary, who created your god?

          March 4, 2014 at 3:41 pm |
        • theophileo

          Dyslexic doG
          "so theo ... if a creator is necessary, who created your god?"
          -----------
          I have answered this over and over, but apparently no one reads it.

          "The very existence of the causal chain that is our physical universe demands the existence of a first cause, and, since infinite causal chains do not exist, that first cause must itself be eternal. Since the first cause is outside of physical reality, and eternal, it can be nothing other than God.

          Furthermore, it cannot be argued that the first cause itself had a cause, or you err in creating an infinite regress – an infinite causal chain that cannot exist."

          March 4, 2014 at 3:47 pm |
        • Akira

          @theophilio: So you don't believe in time unless you can see it ticking on a clock, but God has always been there and wasn't created?

          March 4, 2014 at 4:00 pm |
        • Doris

          theo is merely presenting an argument. Conjecture.

          From a scientific standpoint, some cosmologists and physicists argue that a challenge to the cosmological argument is the nature of time, which igaftr has discussed. Question for everyone anyone – do you think time can both both linear and non-linear? If so, why? If not, why? (Or if just non-linear, would do you think that would logically include what has been the traditional linear aspect of time?) I ask because I would guess that some laws that we accept that involve time probably assumed linear, no?

          March 4, 2014 at 4:00 pm |
        • Theo Phileo

          "@theophilio: So you don't believe in time unless you can see it ticking on a clock, but God has always been there and wasn't created?"
          -------–
          Time itself is a created thing, for Genesis 1:1 says "In the beginning, God..." Time is a means to measure the progression of occurances in creation that play out since the beginning. The creator God is outside of time since He created it. God is outside of our physical universe, since He created it. He can intrude into this creation, but this creation cannot intrude into Him.

          If one does not believe in a non-physical origin to our physical universe, then one can only be left with infinite regression, since the only option would be a PHYSICAL cause to the PHYSICAL universe – forcing the physical universe to exist before it existed that it might create itself. Self-creation is impossible, but self-existence is a logical necessity, but that does not belong to this physical universe since this physical universe exists as a collection of contingent ent.ities.

          March 4, 2014 at 4:07 pm |
        • igaftr

          theo
          " tend to keep my studies to that which is real. "
          No you don't...you study the bible.

          March 4, 2014 at 4:07 pm |
        • Akira

          So....no, you don't believe in time unless you can see it, and yes, you believe God had no creator, and has always been there.

          March 4, 2014 at 4:10 pm |
        • Theo Phileo

          "So....no, you don't believe in time unless you can see it"
          ---------
          Well, we don't "see" it as such, but we do journey through it. Which makes sense, because the Bible says over and over "at the appointed time" to refer to prophecy and instances in Jesus' life. Which references the sovereignty of God who has ordained whatsoever comes to pass and "determines their appointed times."

          March 4, 2014 at 4:15 pm |
        • Theo Phileo

          "you study the bible."
          -------–
          Well, that, and jazz... Love Al Hirt. 🙂

          March 4, 2014 at 4:17 pm |
        • Doc Vestibule

          Maybe the Universe is ekpyrotic.

          Or maybe the Universe extends to a place that never ends that is maybe just inside a little jar.

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_J5rBxeTIk

          March 4, 2014 at 4:26 pm |
        • Theo Phileo

          I know I'm going to sound like a total dork, but I actually like Animaniacs. 😉

          March 4, 2014 at 4:29 pm |
        • Doris

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35WVf6Uvk8U

          I think Dr. Millican makes a great case here. Plus, he doesn't sound like Dr. Phil with a sinus infection.

          March 4, 2014 at 4:30 pm |
        • Doc Vestibule

          Me too. Got 'em all on DVD. Pinky and the Brain too.
          These days I can claim that I got them for my kid, but I had the collection before she was born. 😉

          It's hard to find cartoons like that – smart, silly, musical, family friendly.
          Most of what's on these days is nothing more than a half hour long commercial for a toy line.

          But anyways, back to debating the origins of the Universe. 😉

          March 4, 2014 at 4:31 pm |
        • Akira

          Theo: So the concept of time isn't entirely foreign to you.
          Are you a young earth Creationist or an old earth Creationist?

          March 4, 2014 at 4:57 pm |
        • kudlak

          Theo Phileo
          Thinking and taking action requires time, correct? How could a thinking being, as God is supposed to be, think and otherwise "do" anything before there was time to do it in?

          March 4, 2014 at 5:21 pm |
        • Theo Phileo

          Doris,
          Yeah, I've heard that before, but his argument falls apart within the first few sentences...
          He says "Where is the evidence that whatever begins to exist has a cause?" I know that having a British accent makes him sound smart, but this is really a dumb statement... Has he ever seen anything in the physical universe that can explain its own existence? Something that was either self-created, or self-existent?

          Also, he makes the mistake spelled out in scripture: "Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” (1 Peter 3:3-4)

          What this says is that the mockers will say that the universe has always behaved exactly as it does right now. In other words, because we don't see something coming from nothing right now, then it must not ever have.

          But of course, while they say this, they assume the universe is an infinite causal chain, and dive headfirst into the fallacy of infinite regress. Since this physical universe is one big causal chain, since causality and contingency can be seen in every physical thing, it demands a starting point – a prime mover – a first cause.

          March 5, 2014 at 7:39 am |
        • Theo Phileo

          Akira,
          "Theo: So the concept of time isn't entirely foreign to you.
          Are you a young earth Creationist or an old earth Creationist?"
          ---------
          Jesus quoted from Genesis, accounting it as literal history. Although the Genesis account of creation, written by Moses was never witnessed by man, Exodus 33:11 tells us that "the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend." So we know that the account of creation came straight from God through a Christophany.

          Using proper Biblical hermeneutics, understanding the scripture as it was intended when it was written, we know that the creation took place thousands – not billions – of years ago.

          Nailing down the exact date of creation may be a bit more challenging since at creation, all things were created in a mature state – in other words, lead was created right next to uranium.

          Some men have tried to nail down the date though, James Ussher and John Lightfoot both said that creation took place in 4004 BC. Whether that is absolutely true or not, who knows. Ussher's book does make for interesting reading though. Another author who touches on the subject is Sir Robert Anderson, in "The Coming Prince."

          March 5, 2014 at 7:53 am |
        • Theo Phileo

          kudlak,
          Time is a reality that was created for physical existence. Since God created time, He is outside of it. Beyond this I do not know. I won't speculate on theological topics which the Bible has nothing to say.

          March 5, 2014 at 7:58 am |
        • Doris

          Like I was saying before, Theo, the latest claims I have read regarding the universe's beginning do not claim to be the very beginning of anything, only the beginning of this universe. Obviously there have been other considerations about what occurred before (or "around") the beginning of our universe, but all is speculation. Vilenkin expressed some ideas about that. Since it is unknown to us presently, we don't know if what it outside of our universe in time could be considered at all physical, natural, supernatural or not – we just don't know. If one day humans get to know more about that, they might revise or extend their definition of natural, physical. And I am an agnostic atheist, so I don't discount a creative force being involved, but I don't see any good evidence to leap from that consideration to the Abrahamic God. For all I know, if there was a creative force, it might not even have been a singularity – it might have been some force that kick-started this universe and then disappeared to go work on another one, never to return.

          March 5, 2014 at 8:02 am |
        • Doris

          Regarding my last couple of statements, consider ideas from Deism and Spinoza.

          March 5, 2014 at 8:05 am |
        • igaftr

          "Time is a reality that was created for physical existence. Since God created time, He is outside of it."

          Seriously? First, there is NOTHING that indicates that so you basically just pulled that out of your ass.
          Second, that makes absolutley NO sense...it is complete gibberish.
          Amazing the mental gymnastics believers will go through to try to seduce theri minds into this kind of belief. Somehow, you have told yourself this until it made sense, but it is flat out ridiculous. You are trying to argue that everything was created including time, by something that does notexist, but did it anyway. You seriously do not have a clue about what you are trying to talk about. Go back to your imagination, read your book and remain in blissful ignorance. You have confused yourself to the point where you will likely never get it.

          March 5, 2014 at 8:26 am |
        • Theo Phileo

          igaftr,
          Explain how this physical universe was caused by something physical. And do not speculate. And do not insult either, it just makes you look mean, and no one will take you seriously.

          March 5, 2014 at 8:40 am |
        • Theo Phileo

          Doris,
          "And I am an agnostic atheist"
          -------
          I am unfamiliar with this term... Agnostic comes from "a" and "gnosis" which literally means "without knowledge." Whereas atheist comes from "a" and "theos" which is literally "without a god." Does that then mean that an agnostic atheist is one who doesn't know if he is without a god?

          March 5, 2014 at 9:02 am |
        • Doris

          Theo, I would say that mainstream atheists are sometimes called agnostic atheists. They don't hold a belief in God – usually any gods, but don't make a positive claim that there is no possibility for any gods. The wikipedia page on atheism seems to cover this OK. One of the terms there is "implicit atheism".

          March 5, 2014 at 9:29 am |
        • Doris

          Theo: "Explain how this physical universe was caused by something physical. And do not speculate."

          Why limit an answer when speculate is all we can do, whether about the physical or the non-physical? Why limit possibilities regarding the unknown?

          March 5, 2014 at 9:31 am |
        • Theo Phileo

          Doris,
          "Why limit an answer when speculate is all we can do, whether about the physical or the non-physical? Why limit possibilities regarding the unknown?"
          ----------
          Well, that was the point. I guess I should have been less snarky in my response, but the idea is that if ALL that science can do is speculate about origins, then why are some people so adamantly opposed to the idea of a creator God?

          Some may believe in eternal inflation, some may believe in a deistic creator, while others still may subscribe to special creation. Logic dictates that as long as one subscribes to the "I don't know" answer, then only that which can be objectively proven false can be elliminated from the miriad of possibilities, and the position of the hardened and militaristic atheist dissolves into an untenable position.

          March 5, 2014 at 10:00 am |
        • Doris

          Theo: "then why are some people so adamantly opposed to the idea of a creator God? "

          I think you'll find that it's not so much the idea of the possibility of a creative god or force, but that the people you may discuss such with the most are people who have grown up with an Abrahamic God faith and have found it, in particular, to no longer have good enough evidence to be a likely possibility at all. When theists of one of the Abrahamic religions discuss possibilities in the universe for creation, they often don't even specify the Abrahamic God when that is, in fact, precisely what they mean. Atheists are used to this I think and can read between the lines, and so the mainstream atheist is usually responding to what they have already discounted as a reasonable possibility even though their discussion with the theist may never actually mention the Abrahamic God.

          March 5, 2014 at 10:38 am |
        • Theo Phileo

          Doris,
          That may be, but it has been my experience – at least in this country – that when you find someone who is militant in their anti-God att.itude, most of the time it is because the God of Abraham would require them to stop doing something that they rather enjoy doing.

          Very few people are against a god who merely creates the physical universe, and then disappears, but many people hate a God who interferes with their private life.

          March 5, 2014 at 11:06 am |
        • Doris

          Well if you live in the U.S. Theo, that's something you'll have to reconcile for yourself, since our law was written very much from a Deistic perspective with liberty trumping any particular belief.

          March 5, 2014 at 11:27 am |
        • Theo Phileo

          "our law was written very much from a Deistic perspective with liberty trumping any particular belief."
          ----------–
          I live in North GA, so I'm well aquainted with the law. Although men have a legal right to do many things contrary to the dictates of the God of Abraham, the 1st Ammendment to the consti.tution assures Christians that they can preach against such actions. That's generally how I reconcile it.

          But, even if we didn't have the 1st Ammendment, I would abide by:

          Acts 4:19 – Whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge; for we cannot stop speaking about what we have seen and heard.

          Acts 5:27-28 – When they had brought them, they stood them [m]before the Council. The high priest questioned them, saying, “We gave you strict orders not to continue teaching in this name, and yet, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and intend to bring this man’s blood upon us.” But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men."

          March 5, 2014 at 11:48 am |
    • myweightinwords

      Do you actually think anyone is praying TO a statue? Or THROUGH a statue?

      No, the statue serves to remind them of an idea, or an ideal, it gives them cause to examine themselves and pray (as that's what they believe), not to or through the statue, but to their understanding of god.

      It isn't idolatry in the classical sense. No one is worshiping the statue. It's a catalyst. Not a god.

      March 4, 2014 at 9:38 am |
      • theophileo

        Do you actually think anyone is praying TO a statue? Or THROUGH a statue?
        ---------–
        If you watched the video, then, yeah, that was exactly what was happening. The man in the video sat next to the statue, and prayed, looking intently at the staue, and then began touching it's feet, as if he were having a conversation with it.

        No, the statue serves to remind them of an idea, or an ideal, it gives them cause to examine themselves and pray (as that's what they believe), not to or through the statue, but to their understanding of god.
        ------------–
        If that's the case, then, although I do not personally approve of images like that of Christ, if the individual is strong enough in their faith to not let the image serve as a placeholder for scripture, or a replacement of scripture then OK.

        It isn't idolatry in the classical sense. No one is worshiping the statue. It's a catalyst. Not a god.
        -------------
        But that's just it, the 2nd Commandment was designed to rid men of catalysts. After all, that's what the golden calf was in the Exodus story, and that's why Moses destroyed it.

        March 4, 2014 at 9:49 am |
        • myweightinwords

          I did watch the video. I didn't see anyone praying to the statue. I saw someone touched by what the statue represented and praying based on what it made him feel.

          Yes, he touched the statue. It's something solid and real that evokes an emotional response inside him. Some human beings are very tactile. I know I am. I frequently like to touch physical things that evoke emotions in me.

          March 5, 2014 at 12:08 pm |
  6. Vic

    ♰ ♰ ♰ Jesus Christ Is Lord ♰ ♰ ♰

    March 3, 2014 at 12:00 pm |
    • fintronics

      Just your imagination.

      March 3, 2014 at 1:29 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      Of the Dance...

      March 3, 2014 at 1:58 pm |
      • lunchbreaker

        Micheal Flatley may dispute that.

        March 3, 2014 at 2:12 pm |
    • kudlak

      Bold claim; any evidence to back it up?

      March 4, 2014 at 5:23 pm |
  7. Matt

    Matthew 25:
    35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

    37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

    40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

    March 3, 2014 at 10:33 am |
    • igaftr

      matt
      ""With their whips of flame they smote asunder the webs of Ungoliant, and she quailed, and turned to fight, belching black vapours to cover her; and fleeing from the north she went down into Beleriand, and dwelt beneath Ered Gorgoroth, in that dark valley that was after called Nan Dungortheb, the Valley of Dreadful Death, because of the horror she bred there. For other foul creatures of spider form had dwelt there since the days of the delving of Angband, and she mated with them, and devoured them; and even after Ungoliant herself departed, and went whither she would into the forgotten south of the world, her offspring abode there and wove their hideous webs. Of the fate of Ungoliant, no tale tells. Yet some have said that she ended long ago, when in her uttermost famine she devoured herself at last." –

      "The Silmarillion"
      See we can both quote fictional works of men.

      March 3, 2014 at 10:35 am |
  8. tph370

    This replica of Jesus reminds me of a sadistic belief in a sadistic god; yes, a god who knew beforehand that people would greatly suffer merely from being trusted with "free will." Besides, a perfectly loving God most definitely would have come up with much better creational techniques instead of putting into motion all the violence that lead to his son's slaughter on a bloody cross, this, followed by all the countless horrific tragedies since.

    March 2, 2014 at 8:34 pm |
    • ssq41

      One would think...but to think as you do is considered "enmity" toward that God (Romans 8:7).

      Why is the "carnal" mind so lucid?

      March 2, 2014 at 8:43 pm |
      • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

        That is "cult logic".

        March 2, 2014 at 8:46 pm |
        • ssq41

          A truly powerful force...and, ignored by the Christian, a great source of evil in the world today.

          March 2, 2014 at 8:59 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          Yes, cult logic is a source of evil in the world today.

          March 2, 2014 at 9:04 pm |
    • Austin

      Unconditional forgiveness .

      "I cant stand a God like that" ......"..i hate that sadistic individual who payed the price and forgives"

      Is that even fair?

      March 3, 2014 at 9:31 am |
      • TruthPrevails1

        Are you denying the horrific acts your imaginary friend allowed? How is it you justify your god allowing murder; rape; incest; oppression of women/children/lgbt??
        There is no justification for believing in a god that would allow such horrible things.

        March 3, 2014 at 1:36 pm |
      • the0g0to0the0t

        You're starting to sound like the abused wife that cries to the paramedics "but he says he loves me!"

        March 4, 2014 at 12:25 pm |
  9. hearthetruth1

    http://www.Hear-The-Truth.com and http://HearTheTruth.imgur.com

    March 2, 2014 at 8:08 pm |
    • fintronics

      http://www.youaredeludedbyreligion.com

      March 3, 2014 at 3:06 pm |
  10. Doris

    from 6/12/2012:

    The Uganda Joint Christian Council, which includes Catholic, Anglican, and Orthodox bishops, has called on parliament to move the notorious Anti-Hom-ose-xuality Bill forward. According to the Ugandan newspaper The Daily Monitor:

    Top religious leaders from across the country have asked Parliament to speed-up the process of enacting the Anti-Hom-ose-xuality law to prevent what they called “an attack on the Bible and the inst-itution of marriage.”

    from 12/12/2012:

    Pope Benedict XVI yesterday sent his first tweet from his new Twitter account, then turned around and blessed Rebecca Kadaga, the Speaker of the Uganda Parliament who promised to pass the “Kill The Gays” bill as a “Christmas gift” to Uganda’s Christians.

    from 12/29/2013:

    Papal Nuncio to Uganda, Archbishop Michael Blume, has voiced his concerns about the Anti-Ho-mose-xuality Bill recently passed by the country’s parliament but yet to be signed by President Yoweri Museveni.

    Oh so once they see this little pet project is likely a done deal, suddenly they are concerned to put back on that shiny outer coating of Christian love.

    March 2, 2014 at 3:23 pm |
    • igaftr

      What's even worse is the common practice of correctional ra.p.e, where they will ra.p.e someone so that they will no longer be gay. Often this is done by gangs and the victim sometimes dies.

      Pure ignorance and typical christian belief ruling over reality.

      March 2, 2014 at 3:28 pm |
  11. joeyy1

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_F9nIps46w
    |

    March 2, 2014 at 3:21 pm |
    • igaftr

      Again with this garbage?
      Skydiving is exciting, this song is extremely boring...no soul....sounds computer generated.

      March 2, 2014 at 3:25 pm |
  12. Austin

    Be finding Romans chapter six, Romans chapter six. We're speaking today on this subject, Abounding Victory through Amazing Grace. I hope you know by now that we are saved by God's Amazing Grace. Tis nothing that we do. He does it all. If you come to God as a prince, he'll send you away as a beggar. But if you come to God as a beggar, he'll send you away a prince. When you come to God and say, in my hand no price I bring. Simply to thy cross I cling. Then you will be saved as you trust him by God's Amazing Grace........Adrian Rogers

    March 2, 2014 at 3:04 pm |
    • Doris

      How nice. And from the one who was the chatty cathy Joseph Smith of his day.

      "we are saved by God's Amazing Grace. "

      (translation: "we owe society nothing with our conduct as long as we can find a way to make it fit with our interpretation")

      March 2, 2014 at 3:21 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      "we are saved by God's Amazing Grace. "

      And squshed cats...

      March 2, 2014 at 6:55 pm |
  13. bootyfunk

    i like how the blonde christian lady thinks to call the police on the statue that she thinks is a real homeless man instead of trying to help him. instead of "oh, that poor man sleeping on a bench in front of the church - i wonder if he's hungry" - she instead thinks he is a threat to the community and calls the police to have him taken away. always seemed weird to me that there are so many christian organizations that feed the homeless (BIG points for this) but there are so many christians that don't have the least bit of pity or compassion for them. i'm an atheist and have a lot of problems with the bible, but one of the best messages in that book is from jesus telling us to take care of people less fortunate than ourselves. i heard one of my christian uncles say "they should round up all the homeless and put them on an island somewhere." i wonder how so many christians can overlook one of their savior's most central messages to take care of the poor?

    March 2, 2014 at 2:10 pm |
    • Austin

      i put it along the same lines of God's impatience with the Jews. he caused them to be taken away and they lost their kingdom. Then Christ comes and tell s the rich man to give away his possessions and follow Him as a true disciple.

      along the same lines Christ said my kingdom is not an earthly kingdom and He forbid his disciples to fight a physical war. We are not supposed to be attached to anything of t his world. We are spirit creatures and eternity is in full view.We are not fulfilled materially. We are not saved materially.

      Everything is Gods. Poor people have spirits. This is a test of obedience for the rich that many fail.
      1 cor 1
      26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”[d]

      1 cor 13

      22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

      March 2, 2014 at 3:14 pm |
      • Austin

        this is the only reason why someone as destructive as me has a spiritual gift.

        There is hope for every one of you. God knows you and he loves you and forgives you unconditionally for rejecting him.

        Every one who sins today has rejected God. No one is righteous outside of Gods supernatural sanctification.

        March 2, 2014 at 3:18 pm |
        • igaftr

          Apparently you think lying for your god is not sinful.

          March 2, 2014 at 3:23 pm |
      • fintronics

        Confusing mythology with reality again I see..

        March 3, 2014 at 10:56 am |
      • the0g0to0the0t

        " put it along the same lines of God's impatience with the Jews"

        How can a perfect being be impatient. Sounds like a human quality to me, kind of like jealousy...

        March 4, 2014 at 12:26 pm |
  14. Austin

    Jesus is risen. This authoritatively commands forgiveness and liberty by doctrine written in stone . And then people turn around and want MORE from God.

    What more is there? You want God to make decisions for every one else so you can push your utopia off on God whil e you reject the doctrine and reveltion of sin and forguveness?

    There is no way you can be any more deaf and dumb than that!
    You are the evil one.

    March 2, 2014 at 1:20 pm |
    • bootyfunk

      you are in a cult called 'christianity'. cults are bad for you. they teach you to turn off your brain and obey.

      unclasp your hands. get up off your knees. go outside and put those hands to use helping your brothers and sisters. you will find you do not need belief in a sky-deity to be a good person.

      March 2, 2014 at 1:59 pm |
    • Doris

      "This authoritatively commands forgiveness and liberty by doctrine written in stone"

      Goodness, Austin. They didn't have email back then to try to manipulate with with. They had to spread the spam of the day the same way back then too.

      " And then people turn around and want MORE from God. "

      LOL. I'm sure belivers may want more. I imagine some of them are really tired of waiting around. 🙄

      March 2, 2014 at 2:42 pm |
    • TruthPrevails1

      Day by day, you appear a little more delusional. Please, for the safety of all those around sign yourself in to an asylum for help.

      March 2, 2014 at 2:46 pm |
      • ausphor

        One can only hope that the monitors of the site would report the likes of Austin to the authorities for investigation. So many tragedies could have been averted if someone followed up on the early signs of insanity/lunacy. Can't really expect for Austin to turn him self in, he doesn't understand his condition.

        March 2, 2014 at 3:03 pm |
    • snowr14

      The kinds of you truly scare me.. far more than any others

      March 3, 2014 at 3:28 pm |
  15. Vic

    My daily praise:

    ♰ ♰ ♰ Jesus Christ Is Lord ♰ ♰ ♰

    March 2, 2014 at 12:33 pm |
    • bootyfunk

      i have no lord or master.

      have a great day! 🙂

      March 2, 2014 at 2:00 pm |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      No gods, no masters

      March 2, 2014 at 2:18 pm |
    • fintronics

      your daily delusion.

      March 3, 2014 at 10:57 am |
    • kudlak

      And Elvis is King!!!

      March 4, 2014 at 5:26 pm |
  16. bostontola

    "Vic
    I already have, see the discussion on the previous page since last night; meanwhile, this is not about me, when someone with a greater caliber comes along, I would confer with and refer to him/her."

    Vic,
    You are quick to accept the word of "scholars" over the word of Yahweh right in the bible. Yahweh prescribed explicit qualifications for the messiah. These qualifications require no supernatural or interpretive power to verify they've been met. They were created to make it easy for man to not make a mistake with a false messiah. Jesus miserably failed these qualifications. Don't believe a dumb atheist like me, ask any God fearing Jew, they'll tell you exactly the same thing.

    March 2, 2014 at 11:06 am |
    • otoh2

      bostontola,

      You are correct, but if Vic wants scholars, there are quite a number of Biblical scholars who agree with bostontola. Bart Ehrman has a new book called "How Jesus Became God", which I'm sure goes into some of these issues.

      The vast majority of the Jews, living in the same spot at the time the alleged Jesus - right there, able to hear him preach and "witness" the alleged miracles did not believe that he was "God" or the Messiah.

      There is lots of scholarly work on the subject. Here's one that I ran across about the first century Hebrews:

      http://www.hts.org.za/index.php/HTS/article/viewFile/430/329

      March 2, 2014 at 11:16 am |
      • bostontola

        otoh2,
        I have not heard one Christian provide even the tiniest rebuttal to the biblical failure of Jesus to meet messiah qualifications. It is dodged EVERY time by referring to New Testament rear view mirror justification.

        Christians, Please, explain the failure of Jesus to meet Yahweh's prescribed qualifications!?!

        March 2, 2014 at 11:25 am |
        • Alias

          But, but, but ... with god as his father the lineage thing goes away.
          Well, he didn't end all war yet, but with te second coming he will. So that counts, right?
          And with THAT I havs successfully refuted part of your argument (to my satisfaction), so I will pretend everything else just went away or never even happened.
          Do I win?

          March 2, 2014 at 12:11 pm |
        • Doris

          "I havs successfully refuted part of your argument (to my satisfaction)"

          Sometimes, to the next Christian, snake handling refutes an argument (to his "satisfaction"). (hmm, I guess we really don't know if, after dying from the snake bite, he "won".)

          March 2, 2014 at 12:23 pm |
        • bostontola

          Alias, you win! lol

          March 2, 2014 at 12:23 pm |
        • Austin

          really? Gods kingdom is growing at a rate he simply tolerates because people realize their condition.

          Those who do not know their need who have heard the truth manifest their evil pride through blatant rejection of redemption.

          Your sinful defect is killing you and those who listen to you. You have illuminated just how in fact Christ the messiah was truly the isaiah and john rejected servant glorifying the pophetic word as authoritative reality.

          Your personification of sin and evil defeats your own argument and validates the gospel law of sin and depravity.

          I have proof authoritatively through the manifestation af the supernatural holy spirit and word of God.

          GOD uses the unexpected people to show his his mercy and ability to save anyone who understands the evil within.

          March 2, 2014 at 12:58 pm |
        • Austin

          SaviotlrAlias. Why cant people obey the new testament which defeat the beginning of every war on earth?

          Because people are too evil and they can not obey as slaves to sin and evil.

          Without a savior you are a slave? Have you stopped your own secular country from war? Dont blame jesus that you reject him . Dont you have the ability to be honest that thereason is MAYBE because the world has rejected the doctrine of forgiveness aand peace.

          We all deserve death for our sin. God is mercy yet man kills . Your very secular nation kills. You reject the dictrine and then blame the forgiving sinless savior for insufficiency? What a wretched lie that promotes murder.

          March 2, 2014 at 1:11 pm |
        • Doris

          Austin: "Your sinful defect"

          I think I can understand why you would say that about yourself. But there are a lot of people in the world that you don't know the first damned thing about.

          March 2, 2014 at 2:26 pm |
        • Doris

          " Why cant people obey the new testament which defeat the beginning of every war on earth?"

          Doris' doctrine: -don't kill people and don't incite violence-

          There – if you follow my doctrine it will defeat the beginning of every war on earth. See how easy that is? It doesn't take a book with stories about people living thousands of years ago, to stop the violence, Austin. A book claiming the supernatural with virtually no evidence that has caused harm from its divergent interpretation is not what people need today.

          March 2, 2014 at 2:37 pm |
        • hotairace

          Re: "Why cant people obey the new testament which defeat the beginning of every war on earth?"

          Why do you expect everybody to follow your cul's mystical book of bullsh!t? Why don't all of your cult's members follow your cult's rules all the time? That would be a good start before you tell others how to life.

          March 2, 2014 at 2:53 pm |
    • Vic

      Don't be too hard on yourself.

      We don't judge you as a person, we only objectively criticize your arguments according to what we believe, regarding the subject matter. After that, you are at "Free Will" to decide what to believe in, hence "Faith," like everybody else.

      As Christians, we believe that God Almighty made Himself very clear throughout His mighty work in His "creation," hence "Natural Revelation," as well as Scriptures, hence "Special Revelation." We also believe that the Lord Jesus Christ lifted up the heavy laden off of our shoulders to be readily "saved" through Faith/Belief in Him. We don't need to be scholars to discern any of that. The reason we employ scholarship is to defend our Faith/Belief against what opponents use scholarship for to dispute. We actively cater to the demanded level of discourse.

      March 2, 2014 at 11:33 am |
      • bostontola

        Vic,
        That is a pretty transparent attempt to change the subject. Fact: you can't rebut the assertion that Jesus fails Yahweh's qualifications for the messiah. Not one rebuttal on point. Only long hot air rationalizations by "scholars" that also avoid Yahweh's biblical qualifications with post facto New Testament interpretations. Yahweh's defined qualifications require NO interpretation. They were not met by Jesus.

        March 2, 2014 at 11:38 am |
      • otoh2

        Vic,

        Why is it that Jesus didn't / couldn't even convince the vast majority of his own special, chosen people (the Hebrews), living right there at the time he preached, about his godhood and his mission?

        March 2, 2014 at 11:39 am |
      • James XCIX

        Vic – "...we believe that God Almighty made Himself very clear..."

        How can you believe that when it is obviously unclear to so very many?

        March 2, 2014 at 12:32 pm |
      • doobzz

        "As Christians, we believe that God Almighty made Himself very clear throughout His mighty work in His "creation,""

        Except when it's an allegory, a translational error, a cultural anomaly, symbolic of something else, or plain old magic.

        March 2, 2014 at 1:02 pm |
        • fintronics

          "god works in mysterious ways"..... that's the catch all I hear a lot. LOL

          March 3, 2014 at 3:11 pm |
        • doobzz

          Yeah, when all other arguments fail that one gets dragged out.

          March 3, 2014 at 4:06 pm |
  17. bostontola

    Many Christians are offended by my shining a light on the very foundation of their religion, that Jesus can't be the messiah because he patently failed Yahweh's stated qualifications. How dare an atheist assert that? The thing is, virtually every Jew would unhesitantly agree with all I said. They are believers in God.

    March 2, 2014 at 10:53 am |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      And I would say that would be analogous to how Christians view Mormon belief.

      March 2, 2014 at 11:22 am |
      • bostontola

        And Islam, Bahai, etc., great point.

        March 2, 2014 at 11:45 am |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          I once heard someone say 'If you want to know what is wrong with the foundation of any religious belief, ask the compet.ition'. i.e. Jew vs Christian...Christian vs. Mormon...Catholic vs. Protestant...ect.

          March 2, 2014 at 12:02 pm |
        • derado8

          Aren't most of those religions basically the same thing though? They all have similarities. Compare for instance Scientology body Thetans with Kachinas on the San Francisco mountains. No match at first until you start thinking in terms of alien ghosts, then a pattern forms.

          March 2, 2014 at 12:14 pm |
        • bostontola

          Derado,
          In a way, that is the point. They are similar, but they will fight to the death over the tiny differences and expend huge effort to prove their fine point and disprove the others fine points.

          March 2, 2014 at 12:21 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          derado8,

          Look up 'Lord Raglan Hero pattern'...you might find that interesting.

          March 2, 2014 at 12:23 pm |
        • James XCIX

          Cheesemakers – "Look up 'Lord Raglan Hero pattern'"

          Interesting–I was immediately reminded of Herodotus's story of Cyrus the Great, and of the story of Alexander the Great.

          March 2, 2014 at 2:02 pm |
        • derado8

          That is interesting, the hero is one of Jung's archetypes. He had that Red Book that came out, I wanted to read it so badly but I haven't yet.

          http://psychology.about.com/od/personalitydevelopment/tp/archetypes.htm

          March 2, 2014 at 5:56 pm |
  18. Austin

    I know how supernatural God is because i have a special gift.

    Yet i find myself burdened by the worldly lust in my mind and eye.

    Lord judge me that i might be healed.

    March 2, 2014 at 10:44 am |
    • bostontola

      Austin,
      We all have special gifts.

      March 2, 2014 at 10:49 am |
      • derado8

        Upon researching "special gifts" I discovered temporal lobe epilepsy. Frightening but explanatory.

        March 2, 2014 at 11:51 am |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      You are "special"....no denying that.

      March 2, 2014 at 11:28 am |
    • derado8

      My dad swears he "met" me in the lower bardo just prior to my birth. He described "me" as a pinpoint of white light.
      ??
      Hippies. Got to love them.

      March 2, 2014 at 11:38 am |
      • otoh2

        Heheheh, my mother said that an angel told her to get pregnant with me (her 3rd child)!

        March 2, 2014 at 11:45 am |
        • derado8

          Must have been a prophesy. Here you are 😉

          March 2, 2014 at 11:50 am |
        • otoh2

          p.s. this was right after she had spent a month in a "sanitarium" with what they called in those days a "nervous breakdown"...

          March 2, 2014 at 11:50 am |
        • derado8

          Sorry. I can relate my dad said he was pretty wasted the night he "saw" me.

          March 2, 2014 at 12:11 pm |
  19. bostontola

    It is disingenuous to appeal to "scholars" with rationalizations unsupported by objective evidence to counter explicit failures of the foundation of Christianity. These scholars desperately believe in Jesus, and use all their wits to create those rationalizations out of thin air.

    At the same time, many of these same people dismiss scientific scholars loaded with reams of objective evidence showing without doubt that life emerged via evolution. The scientific scholars have no axe to grind, and have mountains of evidence across every field of science, all populated by different people trained differently, all coming to the same conclusion, life evolved and evolves. And by the way, most of those scientists are/were Christian.

    It really goes beyond reason. Belief is something we seem to be born with, ok. But to ignore objective reality is beyond unreasonable.

    March 2, 2014 at 10:13 am |
    • Austin

      I had another dream hit right on! One from feb 2.

      What you pedal is no different than the khazar of 13 th tribe . Your claim about life coming from evolution is nothing more than a hopeless hobby and desire.

      My faith is confirmed by God and his creation. The supernatural is a live power.

      March 2, 2014 at 10:31 am |
      • bostontola

        Austin,
        I think you are probably a very nice person. I actually like you despite your idiosyncrasies. I appreciate you stating your position, it bolsters my argument.

        March 2, 2014 at 10:41 am |
      • doobzz

        Actually, I pedal a Trek.

        March 2, 2014 at 11:51 am |
    • Austin

      Bostontola. You are way darker when it comes to evil because of your self willed deceit which is hatred.

      Jesus christ has fulfilled the suffering servant atonement. His holy spirit testifies of the spiritual kingdom at hand. Repent or you are sure to understand your rejection in hell.

      March 2, 2014 at 10:40 am |
      • bostontola

        Austin,
        No hate here. I don't hate any person I have ever met, I feel very lucky because of that. I hate Hitler, Stalin, etc., they deserve it.

        March 2, 2014 at 10:43 am |
        • Austin

          Because the holy spirit is present and available and because God interveined and gave us the perfect revelation in two forms , rejection is no less than hatred.

          THE LORD IS THERE.

          March 2, 2014 at 12:43 pm |
        • Doris

          No evidence, Austin. None whatsoever. Let us know when you land some TV gig so we can see how well you fair in that medium attempting to verify you lunacy for others.

          March 2, 2014 at 3:13 pm |
        • igaftr

          "rejection is no less than hatred"
          It most certainly is not.

          Why do you lie for your god?

          March 2, 2014 at 3:15 pm |
        • Austin

          you are scientific failures and biased self deceived sinners.

          You hate what is good.

          There is a savior who you can call on at any time.

          March 2, 2014 at 3:19 pm |
        • fintronics

          The Easter bunny?

          March 3, 2014 at 1:31 pm |
        • fintronics

          "Because the holy spirit is present and available "

          Sorry, I don't believe in ghosts.....

          March 3, 2014 at 3:49 pm |
      • fintronics

        @austin......... "Repent or you are sure to understand your rejection in hell."

        Empty threats of an imaginary place............ from your imagination.....

        March 3, 2014 at 1:34 pm |
  20. bostontola

    Jews seem to be a community of intelligent, moral people by and large. They also have their own beliefs in their God/religion. They don't worry at all about going to hell because they don't accept Jesus as their messiah. They don't worry because they have a covenant with their God.

    The God of the Jews, is generally viewed as the same as the God of the Christians. I don't. The God of the Jews makes law, enforces law, makes covenant and makes people keep that covenant. It is all defined in the OT. The God of the Jews defined the messiah and even crisply defined the characteristics and accomplishments of the messiah so Jews could unequivocally recognize him when he came. The God of the Jews was not va.gue and poetic, He is like a lawyer, precise in the terms of the covenants.

    Jesus did not meet the resume of the messiah. Some Jews were so desirous of living to see the messiah, they went along anyway (we have Christians today so desperate for the end of times, they are convinced it will happen in their lifetime even though there has been 100 generations of people thinking that since Jesus). But Jesus didn't pass the test of the Jewish God. Just because Christianity became the most popular religion doesn't make it right. The NT changed the rules and changed the entire character of God. No longer a law maker and a covenant maker, now God is a lover. A lover that will burn you for eternity if you reject him.

    This is not the same God. Christianity is a wholly new religion, with a new God, as different from Yahweh as Yahweh is from Zeus.

    The whole notion that you can rewrite the rules of the messiah after the fact is absurd. Yahweh was among other things, a lawyer/judge. He wrote the law and Jesus didn't meet it. So Jesus' followers rewrote the book. I'm ok with that, you're enti.tled to any religion you want, but it is clear, Jesus is a new God, not related to Yahweh.

    March 2, 2014 at 8:45 am |
    • hotairace

      In summary, as a note to religion creators, when creating a new religion, it is ok to steal from other cults, so as to gain some credibility, but it would be appreciated if you were honest when departing radically from previous mythology.

      March 2, 2014 at 9:11 am |
      • bostontola

        haa,
        I don't think they recognized the logical and plot inconsistencies in their story. It rode for centuries. Then really smart Christian philosophers began the difficult task of plastering the holes. I admire the job they did, but with modern technology, those holes are directly observable.

        March 2, 2014 at 9:22 am |
    • James XCIX

      bostontola – "Jesus did not meet the resume of the messiah. Some Jews were so desirous of living to see the messiah, they went along anyway (we have Christians today so desperate for the end of times, they are convinced it will happen in their lifetime even though there has been 100 generations of people thinking that since Jesus)"

      Nice analogy. And most Christians seem convinced that when Jesus returns they're going to get to see it because he's going to choose their neighborhood as the location.

      March 2, 2014 at 9:35 am |
      • bostontola

        I agree. Humans are self centered by and large. The Abrahamic religions are designed to exploit that trait.

        March 2, 2014 at 9:41 am |
    • Vic

      Russ has scholarly addressed that argument, and he wrapped up his scholarly work to the point at 7:16 pm last night.

      I would confer with Russ regarding any circulation of the same argument..

      March 2, 2014 at 9:42 am |
      • James XCIX

        Care to share any ideas of your own? Or must you refer to someone else's?

        March 2, 2014 at 9:44 am |
        • Vic

          I already have, see the discussion on the previous page since last night; meanwhile, this is not about me, when someone with a greater caliber comes along, I would confer with and refer to him/her.

          March 2, 2014 at 9:49 am |
        • Doris

          I saw it too. I'm not convinced. Of conclusion nor caliber.

          March 2, 2014 at 9:54 am |
      • bostontola

        Vic, Russ,
        I didn't ask those scholars, I asked you to explain why Jesus failed the test. Hiding behind a "scholar" to rationalize the failure is completely ineffective.

        If I didn't like the Theory of Relativity, I could quote Newton to justify Newton's Laws. Was Newton brilliant? Yes, but he wouldn't be right arguing against Relativity.

        The fact is, you can't argue against the failure of Jesus to meet Yahweh's defined messiah qualifications. Because of that, you scramble to find a rationalization.

        March 2, 2014 at 9:50 am |

        March 2, 2014 at 10:01 am |
      • fintronics

        "scholarly" as in "bible scholarly" .... using the bible for evidence that the bible is fact?.......

        March 3, 2014 at 3:53 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.