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Pope Francis: Church could support civil unions
Pope Francis speaks at St Peter's square on December 11, 2013.
March 5th, 2014
10:04 AM ET

Pope Francis: Church could support civil unions

By Daniel Burke, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

(CNN) - Pope Francis reaffirmed the Catholic Church's opposition to gay marriage on Wednesday, but suggested in a newspaper interview that it could support some types of civil unions.

The Pope reiterated the church's longstanding teaching that "marriage is between a man and a woman." However, he said, "We have to look at different cases and evaluate them in their variety."

States, for instance, justify civil unions as a way to provide economic security to cohabitating couples, the Pope said in a wide-ranging interview published Wednesday in Corriere della Seraan Italian daily. State-sanctioned unions are thus driven by the need to ensure rights like access to health care, Francis added.

A number of Catholic bishops have supported civil unions for same-sex couples as an alternative to marriage, including Pope Francis when he was Archbishop of Buenos Aires in 2010, according to reports in National Catholic Reporter and The New York Times.

Behind closed doors, pope supported civil unions in Argentina, activist says

But Wednesday's comments are "the first time a Pope has indicated even tentative acceptance of civil unions," according to Catholic News Service.

Later on Wednesday, a Vatican spokesman sought to clarify the Pope's remarks.

"The Pope did not choose to enter into debates about the delicate matter of gay civil unions," said the Rev. Thomas Rosica, a consultant to the Vatican press office.

"In his response to the interviewer, he emphasized the natural characteristic of marriage between one man and one woman, and on the other hand, he also spoke about the obligation of the state to fulfill its responsibilities towards its citizens."

"We should not try to read more into the Pope’s words than what has been stated in very general terms," Rosica added.

Pope Francis, who marks his first year in office on March 13, has sought to set a more tolerant tone for his 1 billion-member church and suggested that a broad range of topics are at least open for discussion.

In January, the Pope recalled a little girl in Buenos Aires who told her teacher that she was sad because "my mother's girlfriend doesn't like me."

"The situation in which we live now provides us with new challenges which sometimes are difficult for us to understand," the Pope told leaders of religious orders, adding that the church "must be careful not to administer a vaccine against faith to them."

The Vatican later denied that those comments signaled an opening toward same-sex unions.

Last June, Francis famously refused to judge gay priests in comments that ricocheted around the world. He has also said that the church should not "interfere" in the spiritual lives of gays and lesbians.

Pope Francis' greatest hits of 2013

Support of same-sex unions of any type is fiercely contested by many Catholic church leaders.

In Wednesday's interview, Francis also addressed several other controversial issues, including the Catholic Church's ban on contraception, the role of women and the devastating clergy sexual abuse scandal.

On contraception, the Pope praised Pope Paul VI for having the "courage" to "go against the majority" when restating the ban in 1968. But, Francis said, the church must also be "merciful" and "attentive to concrete situations."

Contraception and church's ban on divorced Catholics receiving holy communion, will likely be addressed at major meetings of Catholic bishops in Rome in 2014 and 2015.

“We must give a response. But to do so, we must reflect much in depth,” the Pope said Wednesday.

On the role of women in the church, an issue of particular concern to Catholics in the United States, the Pope hinted that changes could be in the works.

"Women must be present in all of the places where decisions are taken," Francis said in the newspaper interview, but the church must consider more than "functional" roles for women. To that end, Catholic leaders are engaged in "deep reflection" on women's role in the church, he said.

On the sexual abuse of children by Catholic clergy, a scandal that has rocked the church in the United States, the Pope said the abuse has left "very deep wounds" on victims.

In response, the church has done more than other institutions to be open and transparent about sexual abuse by its employees, Francis said. “But the Church is the only one to be attacked."

A United Nations panel criticized Catholic leaders last month in a hard-hitting report on clergy sexual abuse.

The report said the Vatican "has not acknowledged the extent of the crimes committed, has not taken the necessary measures to address cases of child sexual abuse and to protect children, and has adopted policies and practices which have led to the continuation of the abuse by and the impunity of the perpetrators.”

The Vatican said it would study the U.N. report.

Kick out those who sexually abuse children, U.N. panel tells Vatican

On Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI, who has surprised church-watchers with public appearances after saying he would live a cloistered life in retirement, Francis said he considers his predecessor a "wise grandfather."

"The Pope Emeritus is not a statue in a museum," Pope Francis said. Rather, the two men have decided that Benedict should participate in the church's public life rather than live a shuttered life.

"I thought about grandparents who with their wisdom, their advice, strengthen families and don't deserve to end up in an old folks home," Francis said.

Finally, he may sometimes wear a cape, but don't call Pope Francis a Superman, the popular pontiff said.

"To paint the Pope as a sort of Superman, a kind of star, seems offensive to me," Francis told Corriere della Sera. "The Pope is a man who laughs, cries, sleeps soundly and has friends like everyone else. A normal person."

Earlier this year, graffiti depicting a muscle-bound and flying Francis appeared on walls near Vatican City, but the Pope said Wednesday that he doesn't like the "mythology" surrounding his papacy, which marks its first anniversary on March 13.

For instance, Francis debunked the idea that he sneaks out of the Vatican at night to feed the homeless.

"It never occurred to me," he said.

(CNN's Delia Gallagher assisted in translating Pope Francis' remarks from the Italian.) 

- CNN Religion Editor

Filed under: Catholic Church • Christianity • Culture wars • Discrimination • Gay marriage • Gay rights • Pope Benedict XVI • Pope Francis • Vatican

soundoff (3,591 Responses)
  1. Doris

    “We read the Golden Rule and judge it to be a brilliant distillation of many of our ethical impulses. And then we come across another of God’s teachings on morality: if a man discovers on his wedding night that his bride is not a virgin, he must stone her to death on her father’s doorstep (Deuteronomy 22:13-21).” –Sam Harris

    March 6, 2014 at 11:06 am |
    • derado8

      Anarchy appeals to me for so many reasons, this is one of them.

      March 6, 2014 at 11:11 am |
      • derado8

        Sometimes I think anarchy is the real truth of it. People can lay down laws and then it becomes the duty of everyone to find some way around them. In the long run we mostly do what we want to do anyway, all of us.

        March 6, 2014 at 11:13 am |
      • Doc Vestibule

        [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbNlaNYWa68&w=640&h=360]

        March 6, 2014 at 11:19 am |
        • derado8

          LOL I forgot about that song. I remember Sid Vicious doing that song cover. But seriously it's a misnomer that anarchy would be chaos. We all STARTED with anarchy, we created laws. It's still there underneath it all.

          March 6, 2014 at 11:30 am |
        • derado8

          Correction Sid did the original, this is the cover

          March 6, 2014 at 11:30 am |
        • neverbeenhappieratheist

          What I find amazing is that the universe is not chaotic when left to its own rythms. Humans and our social evolution is anathma to the universal pattern that is seen thoughout the universe. From wavelengths of light and energy to the sand dunes of the Sahara we see the universe undulating in a rythmic pattern that requires no God, no hand guiding it. Check out these patterns created just by using sound waves. This to me proves the complexity of the universe does not need a more complex creator to make patterns that appear sentiently made.

          http://www.wimp.com/risingtone/

          March 6, 2014 at 2:13 pm |
    • Peaceadvocate2014

      Doris,

      You are taking verses in the Old testament that focuses on Gods judgement. In the New testament it focuses on what humans reaction to a sin created by another human.

      It is true adulterers would be judged, condemed by God but as humans being imperfect cant judge.

      This is shown by Jesus when an accused adulterer were being tried by people in the village. Jesus said cast the first stone if you have not sin. Meaning, we cant judge someone if we ourselves commit sins.

      I guess if you feel you are a perfect being go ahead and cast the first stone.

      Peace

      March 6, 2014 at 11:52 am |
      • Doris

        PA: "You are taking verses in the Old testament that focuses on Gods judgement."

        So are too many Christians. Reason fails them. Their lunacy must be met head-on.

        March 6, 2014 at 12:29 pm |
        • Peaceadvocate2014

          Doris,

          Its true there is lunacy in misinterpretation for their own interest but the hreater lunacy is thinking we do not need morality, guidance from God.

          March 6, 2014 at 1:51 pm |
      • joey3467

        It is too bad for you that the story was added a couple of centuries after the gospel was first written, and thus it probably never happened.

        March 6, 2014 at 1:47 pm |
        • Peaceadvocate2014

          Joey,

          May never have happened but it was recorded in various textual references.

          Bible may have been a big hoax too but I read, study it and believe its true based on experiences in our daily lives and the good message it provides.

          March 6, 2014 at 1:56 pm |
  2. Austin

    Fornication feels great.

    Satan hates it when souls are won and saved.

    March 6, 2014 at 11:00 am |
    • Doris

      Oh I see, so Satan hates fornication..

      March 6, 2014 at 11:03 am |
    • derado8

      Austin. You can't make someone else follow your religion.

      March 6, 2014 at 11:08 am |
  3. Austin

    T Your arguement repeats itself falsely.

    "The biblical stance against ho.mose.xuality is nullified because there are other verses that arent simultaneously inferred upon while on the subject of.ho.mose.xuality"

    This is deceptive diversion as you present a side show. What a childish masquerade.

    March 6, 2014 at 10:58 am |
    • Alias

      So much for all the 'doing unto others' stuff.

      March 6, 2014 at 10:59 am |
      • Austin

        Wrong. There is a list of sins.

        March 6, 2014 at 11:04 am |
    • observernow

      Austin,

      Still CLUELESS about what the bible says?

      When asked about the MOST IMPORTANT COMMANDMENT, which of these did Jesus NOT MENTION?

      (a) The Golden Rule
      (b) S3xual activities by heteros (adultery)
      (c) S3xual activities by gays?

      Easy answer. Is it (a), (b), or (c)? You don't need 75 LINES of spam to avoid it.

      March 6, 2014 at 11:01 am |
      • Austin

        That work doesnt complete the gospel message.

        You cant love anyone by telling them that God gives them the liscence to rebel and worship a sinful lifestyle.

        Worshiping and devotion to sin is the rejection of Christ within.you.

        Love is honest.

        March 6, 2014 at 11:09 am |
        • observernow

          Austin,

          Love is HONEST, but you aren't.

          SO is the answer (a), (b), or (c)? Please read a Bible SOMEDAY so you will have a CLUE. Ask Sunday school kids if you know so little about it.

          March 6, 2014 at 12:09 pm |
    • derado8

      You can't make someone adhere to your religion.

      March 6, 2014 at 11:06 am |
  4. Austin

    The russan takeover of crimea is like the demonic ho.mo s.exual. takeover of your brain.

    You cant war with the flesh. The battle is not against flesh and blood.

    This is your greatest spiritual test to fully surrender to war with the sword of the spirit and surrender to Gods spirit. Or you are simply helpless and you loose and give the devil the right to your flesh.

    You are called to victory in christ risen.

    Fight your fight with the supernatural word of God.

    March 6, 2014 at 10:33 am |
    • Doris

      "The russan takeover of crimea is like the demonic ho.mo s.exual. takeover of your brain."

      L O L – oh I have to copy some of these latest ones from the austintatious one. Comedy Gold as they say...

      March 6, 2014 at 10:37 am |
      • midwest rail

        Absolutely a poe.

        March 6, 2014 at 10:39 am |
    • observernow

      Austin,

      Rather than ranting delusional nonsense, why not spend some time actually reading a Bible. After that you might be able to answer questions like:

      Jesus had much to say about the s3xual practices of heteros and much of it was bad.
      What did Jesus say about gays?

      Still COMPLETELY STUMPED? Read a Bible someday.

      March 6, 2014 at 10:40 am |
      • Austin

        No observer he told the adulteress. To rrepent.

        You cant trick us.

        Its this and not this.

        Its all of the above. You misrepresent the word with craftiness.

        March 6, 2014 at 10:53 am |
        • observernow

          Austin,

          Gays don't commit adultery. Ooops.

          Jesus had much to say about the s3xual practices of heteros and much of it was bad.
          What did Jesus say about gays?

          Still NO CLUE at all? Read a Bible someday

          March 6, 2014 at 10:59 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      Don't like the gay thoughts milling about in your head?
      Crimea river.

      March 6, 2014 at 10:50 am |
      • midwest rail

        " Crimea river. "
        You, sir, win the internet for today.

        March 6, 2014 at 10:51 am |
      • Doris

        lol

        March 6, 2014 at 11:01 am |
      • TruthPrevails1

        lol

        March 6, 2014 at 12:56 pm |
  5. Doris

    “It is time we admitted, from kings and presidents on down, that there is no evidence that any of our books was authored by the Creator of the universe. The Bible, it seems certain, was the work of sand-strewn men and women who thought the earth was flat and for whom a wheelbarrow would have been a breathtaking example of emerging technology. To rely on such a document as the basis for our worldview-however heroic the efforts of redactors- is to repudiate two thousand years of civilizing insights that the human mind has only just begun to inscribe upon itself through secular politics and scientific culture. We will see that the greatest problem confronting civilization is not merely religious extremism: rather, it is the larger set of cultural and intellectual accommodations we have made to faith itself.”

    –Sam Harris

    March 6, 2014 at 10:31 am |
  6. believerfred

    In the beginning God created remains the point where all of science and all of philosophy end. What greater proof that God is who the Bible says God is. All the doubters that claim an all powerful God could have done a better job getting his message across end at the same point, stumped by the limitations of scientific method and exhausted by empty thoughts of alternatives. Most amazing is the pride and admiration attributed to those who proclaim "we don't know" but, someday we will know. This proclamation of ignorance rides on the back of all scientific evidence that unanimously confirms all other conceivable possibilities as to origin are beyond natural processes known to man.
    The atheist who clings to naturalism and the agnostic who proclaims ignorance possess all the proof they need that in the beginning one finds the alpha and the omega as God.
    Please do not insult yourself by claiming one cannot disprove a negative. We have mountains of proof that naturalism is not a valid foundation for origin as current knowledge has arrived at a non material, substance and power that is not of known baryonic matter. God is not of substance known to man and of power that can be inferred from effects on physical matter. This proof if rejected only reflects deep seated bias as inferred presence is accepted scientific evidence when it comes to matter such as dark energy.
    Agnostics cannot say we don't know the substance and power of God cannot exist because it is known and has been proven.
    This is where faith begins and the Bible is the only holy book that gets this right "In the beginning God created". One cannot move past personal bias and that bias is revealed in the very beginning. You cannot say you do not know because when you read these words it has been made known. Don't get tripped up it is very simple as John clarified it with "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God." How simple, it begins with the word then God said let it be and it was so.

    March 6, 2014 at 10:22 am |
    • observernow

      "in the beginning, God created man". He misjudged things so BADLY that the first human baby killed the second and centuries later God virtually wiped out the life he created and started over. Let's throw some honesty in here.

      March 6, 2014 at 10:26 am |
      • believerfred

        Bingo! right off the bat your true thoughts of God are revealed. You are revealing your image and your view of creation not Gods.

        March 6, 2014 at 10:35 am |
        • observernow

          believerfred,

          Not my OPINION at all. As one of the agnostics you claim has all the info they need, I am passing the TRUTH about what the Bible said.

          Gen. 6:6-7) “And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”

          March 6, 2014 at 10:43 am |
        • believerfred

          I thought you didn't believe the flood story and now you hold it up high as if you have scalped God himself with the blood dripping down your arm. Again I say step into light.

          March 6, 2014 at 10:52 am |
        • Alias

          Fred,
          Are you actually claiming it is inappropriate to use the bible to show that the bible is wrong?

          March 6, 2014 at 11:04 am |
        • believerfred

          observernow
          "Not my OPINION at all. As one of the agnostics you claim has all the info they need, I am passing the TRUTH about what the Bible said."
          =>no, you have twisted words out of context that contain the words but the impression left is not the truth about what the Bible says.
          "In the beginning God" speaks to the incomparability of God. God cannot be compared to anything we know as to space, time, matter etc. yet alone mans thoughts and ways. Your attempt to judge God reveals you and your nature but nothing about God. God "misjudged things so badly" is not a statement you have capacity to make. Who are you to judge God and exactly what part of the flood story or Cain and Able was good and or bad in your opinion. Oh my you sound like you ate the apple and now it is you who is wise like God knowing good and evil. It was man who went for the knowledge of Good and evil before he was prepared for it. It is man who brings about evil in various degrees. It is God who sets the boundaries of how far mans evil is allowed so that the light, the hope and the promise will be fulfilled.

          March 6, 2014 at 11:21 am |
        • believerfred

          Alias
          The Bible is couched in such a Divine way that it always reveals the soul of the reader. Within the Bible are many stories all of which contain great truth that can bring salvation or harden the heart that rejects God.
          In questioning the Bible and its contents we typically find what we seek.

          March 6, 2014 at 11:27 am |
        • observernow

          fred,

          You're a riot.

          Here are God's OWN WORDS which you apparently haven't read:Gen. 6:6-7) “And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”

          Does "I AM SORRY THAT I HAVE MADE THEM" sound like a success story to you? Or is that an UNRELIABLE source?

          March 6, 2014 at 12:02 pm |
        • believerfred

          observernow
          "Does "I AM SORRY THAT I HAVE MADE THEM" sound like a success story to you?"
          =>This simply expresses the revelation of God to the Hebrew that God is concerned about man personally. As such we use our words of our day to express how God sees wickedness in our day. Certainly at some level we are using our emotions and feelings then putting that on God. Why wouldn't God have feelings concerning wicked things we do to one another?

          March 6, 2014 at 1:22 pm |
        • observernow

          believerfred

          "I AM SORRY THAT I HAVE MADE THEM" means "I am sorry that I have made them". In other words, "I goofed"

          March 6, 2014 at 1:25 pm |
        • believerfred

          observernow
          Get real, 3,400 years ago the Chosen Ones would never have dared to think God goofed. The plan of creation would not have included a tree of knowledge. You are running contrary to God and contrary to God as revealed by His people. God does not contradict himself. Just as God is not really a he we refer to God in that manner. The Bible is about redemption and you cannot redeem what does not need redemption. You cannot save what does not need saving.
          You continually forget Genesis was written on a scroll and just as your life rolls out to its conclusion so too the history of the revelation of God in creation. "Gods heart was grieved and filled with pain" are the words of man to account for an emotive response to that plan of creation which already knew the fullness of sin that would be poured out on Jesus at the cross on the one who found favor in the eyes of the Lord. The truth has been revealed in countless ways so that those who seek truth will find truth while the rest will be blotted out from an eternity with God.
          Now, you do not like the plan of God in the purpose of creation which is to allow those who find favor in the eyes of the Lord to rise above that final judgment. You pick and choose verses out of the Bible in order to drive another nail in Christ and yes God is sorry for you. Not because he goofed but because you have chosen an eternity outside of His plan for you. That plan was designed so that those who desire God would find salvation from a world of good and evil.

          March 6, 2014 at 4:04 pm |
        • observernow

          believerfred,

          You are too much!

          So when God said "I am sorry that I have made them" was he LYING or just kidding? Unreliable source?

          When you write the Fred Dictionary", please mention that the phrase "I am sorry that I have made them" DOES NOT MEAN "I am sorry that I have made them".

          YOU need to GET REAL.

          March 6, 2014 at 4:24 pm |
        • believerfred

          observernow
          On many occasions my mother said I am sorry I brought you into this world. Was it a mistake.........................don't answer that "I don't know" just because your agnostic

          March 6, 2014 at 6:01 pm |
        • observernow

          fred,

          That is really sad. No one should ever do that to their kids. Some people just shouldn't be parents.

          That's part of the many reasons why I am pro-choice.

          March 6, 2014 at 6:05 pm |
        • believerfred

          observernow
          I cannot speak for God but the tone of the scroll in its entirety is that God knows how to bring about the greatest number of redeemed souls with the least amount of pain possible to all souls. The overall plan of creation is bringing the fulfillment of that reality. Very few called a remnant seem to come through the trials of life and Noah's family was one remnant that found favor in the eyes of the Lord. Gods compassion is greater than I can imagine so the is a sense of sorrow for those who do not want what God wants for them

          March 6, 2014 at 6:28 pm |
      • believerfred

        God did not mismanage, how quickly you forget that on the 6th day God said it is very good and then God rested from creation. Look around at the perfection of the natural laws that keep perfect balance throughout our universe bringing order out of chaos.
        You moved right passed how God said let there be light and the light separated the darkness. Slow down there are some roses to smell on the way. The light was shining in the darkness but the darkness knew it not. That is what you are doing constantly. Spend some time in the light it does a body good.

        March 6, 2014 at 10:48 am |
        • Doc Vestibule

          Perfect balance?
          Do you believe that life is adapted to its environment (large scale – like, galactic, universal environment) or that the environment is adpated to us?

          magine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, "This is an interesting world I find myself in — an interesting hole I find myself in — fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!" This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it's still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise.

          March 6, 2014 at 11:03 am |
        • Doc Vestibule

          Puddle quote courtesy of Douglas Adams.

          March 6, 2014 at 11:04 am |
        • In Santa We Trust

          Your god's not a good judge then. One of the first two born killed the other and then married a person that according to the myth did not exist. Centuries later, it killed pretty much everything in a very illogical way for an omnipotent creature.

          March 6, 2014 at 11:15 am |
        • believerfred

          Doc
          "Maybe reality always dresses itself up in Newtonian or Einsteinian or quantum clothing, and science hasn’t yet seen what reality looks like naked. "
          I pulled this out of some current thought that would suggest your puddle is of our own making. We are moving into some uncharted waters thanks to quantum physics defusing what we once thought separated the real from the imagined.
          https://www.sciencenews.org/blog/context/finding-quantum-way-make-free-will-possible?mode=blog&context=117

          March 6, 2014 at 11:35 am |
        • believerfred

          In Santa We Trust
          You skipped some important stuff to get right into the first kids Cain and Able. Man now exists outside of the Garden which God created for man. This world is good and evil which is what man desired over the Garden of Eden in the presence of God (that creation God said was very good).
          Now what would you expect the first two offspring in the world of good and evil to be like...............hummm.........good and evil as in Cain and Able. I am not sure how you think this reflects on God as it is mans desire not Gods desire for man.

          March 6, 2014 at 12:05 pm |
        • In Santa We Trust

          fred, I was referring to "... on the 6th day God said it is very good and then God rested from creation."
          The very good part.

          March 6, 2014 at 12:27 pm |
        • believerfred

          In Santa We Trust
          Oh, but it was very good and then God rested from creation. Things did not go "bad" until after creation was complete and man rejected the Garden created for man.

          March 6, 2014 at 3:09 pm |
        • In Santa We Trust

          So god is neither omniscient nor omnipotent? Not a very capable god then.

          March 6, 2014 at 3:15 pm |
        • believerfred

          In Santa We Trust
          You make me think of Miracle on 34th Street when Susan is disappointed that Kris could not get her what she wanted. But, low and behold if you trust till the end of the journey you will not be disappointed.
          If you read to the end of the fall in Chapter 3 we see the plan has already been played out and then begins the history of that plan unfolding in our timeline. It has all been said and done many times and no one can force you into the presence of God (the Garden before the fall). If you truly seek the way you will find it. At the end you will not be surprised there is the home of your dreams with a swing set. That shepherds cane will also be there.

          March 6, 2014 at 4:17 pm |
        • In Santa We Trust

          Why do you believers conflate disbelief with disappointment? I see no evidence for a god. No objective evidence is ever presented for a god. My comments are intended to point out the inconsistencies as the believers tap-dance around logic and reason to sustain their belief. I am perfectly happy to know that after organ donation what remains of me will be worm food; I'm not sure that I'd want more even if it were available without clear T&C for any afterlife.

          March 6, 2014 at 4:23 pm |
        • believerfred

          For your sake I pray it is worm food. I really find myself doing a lot of tap dancing avoiding the possibility that I do not understand what the Bible means by that worm.
          "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched"

          March 6, 2014 at 6:08 pm |
    • the0g0to0the0t

      "In the beginning was the Logos (Sophia) and the Logos (Sophia) was with Yahweh."

      There you go. Fixed it for you.

      March 6, 2014 at 10:29 am |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      All the believers that claim an all powerful God is perfect and did the best job possible getting his message across end at the same point, stumped by the limitations of theology and exhausted by empty thoughts of excluding alternatives. Most amazing is the pride and admiration attributed to those who proclaim "we know" but we can't demonstrate that we know, you just have to take our word for it.

      *fixed*

      March 6, 2014 at 11:03 am |
      • believerfred

        Blessed
        In the beginning God. This is where science points by sheer weight of evidence. You have moved discussion over to who or what do you think God is or says. Now that is something science will not address and I am not certain if it would be workable if science could address such without destroying faith.

        March 6, 2014 at 11:47 am |
        • igaftr

          "This is where science points by sheer weight of evidence"

          Do you think you get points with your god for lying?
          Science does not point to any gods, and your "evidence" weighs absolutely nothing, since there is NO evidence anywhere.

          March 6, 2014 at 1:11 pm |
        • believerfred

          igaftr
          Science points to God as all scientific endeavor as to origin cannot establish any point of origin or process of origin that fits known natural laws .

          March 6, 2014 at 1:38 pm |
        • MidwestKen

          @believerfred,
          "... cannot establish any point of origin or process of origin..."

          Even if true, doesn't that, by definition, NOT point to God or gods?

          March 6, 2014 at 1:56 pm |
        • believerfred

          MidwestKen
          As far as I can tell it is factually where science is today so it is true, not if true. Science points to something outside the known natural laws or at best is exhausted at the limit of known natural laws. When you begin to look at the landscape of a quantum field in an attempt to confirm mass that by natural laws must exist yet is missing you are doing the same thing man has done in all known history. Any attempt to grab hold of God with tools other than faith comes up empty.
          Can the simple answer be the best? Can man build a temple that can hold God? No, this science has proven because no matter how large the scope of the universe we cannot find a boundary and no matter how small we go there no limit to a diminutive neutral charge. Yes, everything of science ends at the point of God.
          The argument remains what or who is God

          March 6, 2014 at 2:20 pm |
        • igaftr

          fred
          "Science points to God as all scientific endeavor as to origin cannot establish any point of origin or process of origin that fits known natural laws "

          So basically you are leaping from we do not know to goddidit...pure BS. Science does not point to that at all....people who think that gods exist point to god because no evidence at all anywhere, somehow equates to god.

          Science says we do not know. You CHANGE that to mean science points to god...how utterly dishonest to misrepresent the issue as you have done.

          There is currently NOTHING that points to god, except for believers imaginations.

          March 6, 2014 at 2:32 pm |
        • believerfred

          igaftr

          "So basically you are leaping from we do not know to goddidit"
          =>I have not leaped there yet, but brace yourself. All I said is science confirms the existence of substance and power that does not conform to natural laws and processes.

          "Science does not point to that at all....people who think that gods exist point to god because no evidence at all anywhere, somehow equates to god."
          =>no, you cannot have it both ways. You cannot accept science that infers existence of matter and power by its effect due to lack of evidence then reject God who is also inferred by its effect. Both rely completely upon observed effect absent mass that by all known natural laws must exist.
          If you wish to go with your argument then you must also say science is BS. Neither of us will agree with that conclusion.

          Now, I do agree with you that, simply because it is most likely that our understanding of natural laws is currently in error, does not in anyway suggest god did it. I also agree that we possibly will explain the error someday. May we both live so long.

          March 6, 2014 at 3:04 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          =>In the beginning God. This is where science points by sheer weight of evidence.

          No it doesn't. Science has never pointed to god. You are just not being honest with this statement

          =>You have moved discussion over to who or what do you think God is or says.

          No, you are the one making the claim about god, not me. You are the one that is making the claim about what you think god is or what god says. My position is I have no reason to think your claims are actually true. The burden of proof is on your claim...and you time and again fail to demonstrate the truth of your claim.

          =>Now that is something science will not address and I am not certain if it would be workable if science could address such without destroying faith.

          I don't care what is "destroyed"...I only care about what can be demonstrated to be true objectively. If your god interacts with the material world...and you claim he does...science should be able to investigate that.

          March 6, 2014 at 3:08 pm |
        • igaftr

          fred
          "no, you cannot have it both ways. You cannot accept science that infers existence of matter and power by its effect due to lack of evidence then reject God who is also inferred by its effect"

          How am I having it "both" ways. Nothing is inferred at all, that is you leaping to a conclusion that something is inferred simply because you want your belief to be bolstered. There are MANY possible causes, many we haven't even fathomed.
          You have picked one possible explaination ( with nothing to back it up) and declared it correct.

          Again, NOTHING points to any gods. By your reasoning, it also infers we are in the matrix, or any of over 100 gods that are creator gods, or as yet unseen, undetecable aliens...you see what you claim to be inferred, you could put in any number of alternative explainations in the place of god.

          You leap to an unjustifiable conclusion simply because it conforms ( somewhat) to your beliefs.

          March 6, 2014 at 3:23 pm |
        • MidwestKen

          @believerfred,
          1) "cannot" and 'have not' are not the same thing. No where has science determined that we "cannot" determine the origins.
          2) science, by definition, cannot "point to something outside the natural laws". It can disprove all known hypotheses, but not point to a specific unknown.
          3) this is essentially an argument from ignorance, or god of the gaps.

          March 6, 2014 at 3:45 pm |
        • believerfred

          Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          "Science has never pointed to god."
          =>just one example would be conflict of the gravitational and quantum field descriptions of nature. In short naturalism has been debunked. That in itself is a neon sign pointing to a reality with construct outside of our space time continuum. Science cannot call it supernatural without loosing funding but they can admit it fits the definition that is outside the natural.
          =>feel free to insert what ever you want or must insert in place of God. I think the Greeks even erected a monument to the unknown god

          "You are the one that is making the claim about what you think god is or what god says."
          =>not yet (in this post anyway) as I was only observing science has reached the point of the unknowable and unsearchable because it has exhausted the known physical constraints of naturalism, philosophical naturalism embedded in the mind of atheism and root of agnosticism.

          "The burden of proof is on your claim"
          =>NO, the burden of proof is on your substitution of naturalism for God based on what is known which proves naturalism false.

          "time and again fail to demonstrate the truth of your claim"
          =>are you speaking about the existence of God or mans revelation of God as presented in the Bible?

          "I only care about what can be demonstrated to be true objectively"
          =>looks like your belief system is based upon philosophical naturalism which went out the window with the discovery of dark energy many years ago and recently when a landscape without boundary was introduced into the amplitude of a quantum field (i.e. there is something that has appearance of nothing)

          "If your god interacts with the material world...and you claim he does...science should be able to investigate that."
          =>science cannot even account for the missing mass in dark matter absent inference from gravitational effect. This is why in Hebrews 2,000 years ago it was said "By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out what was visible. It was by faith Noah warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark."
          Hello Blessed Cheesemaker can you not see attacks against Noah and the flood are based upon natural laws which are now in conflict with what we know? If we cannot resolve this conflict of apparent mass within a weak force reality becomes what we think not what we once thought real (physical/with mass). I can only hope the movie Matrix was not a documentary.

          March 6, 2014 at 5:23 pm |
        • believerfred

          MidwestKen
          Sorry, but we do it all the time. The best example relates to dark matter where properties are inferred based on its gravitational effects alone. In reality (as we know it today) there is no mass present in what is referred to as dark matter which creates a big problem that makes the apple Eve ate more real than the apple which fell on Newton's head (i.e. we know the apple did not fall on Newton's head which led to a truth concerning gravity)

          March 6, 2014 at 5:38 pm |
        • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          "Science has never pointed to god."
          =>just one example would be conflict of the gravitational and quantum field descriptions of nature. In short naturalism has been debunked. That in itself is a neon sign pointing to a reality with construct outside of our space time continuum. Science cannot call it supernatural without loosing funding but they can admit it fits the definition that is outside the natural.

          This is a lie fred, you seem to be making up your own reality in addition to the made up claims of your religion. And then you point to some grand conspiracy in science to cover your lack of evidence for your claim. This is so dishonest that I have lost respect for you just from this answer.

          =>not yet (in this post anyway) as I was only observing science has reached the point of the unknowable and unsearchable because it has exhausted the known physical constraints of naturalism, philosophical naturalism embedded in the mind of atheism and root of agnosticism.

          In this post? You don’t think I have read your claims many times. You are being disingenuous.

          =>NO, the burden of proof is on your substi.tution of naturalism for God based on what is known which proves naturalism false.

          This is just babbling, you do not make sense.

          =>are you speaking about the existence of God or mans revelation of God as presented in the Bible?

          Take your pick…yes

          =>looks like your belief system is based upon philosophical naturalism which went out the window with the discovery of dark energy many years ago and recently when a landscape without boundary was introduced into the amplitude of a quantum field (i.e. there is something that has appearance of nothing)

          You don’t have any evidence to connect this with god, you are tying yourself in knots. Dark energy is unknown energy. Claiming that is evidence of a god is an argument from ignorance. It is no better that Pagans claiming Zeus created lightning.

          =>science cannot even account for the missing mass in dark matter absent inference from gravitational effect. This is why in Hebrews 2,000 years ago it was said "By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out what was visible. It was by faith Noah warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark."

          More religious babble, and another argument from ignorance

          =>Hello Blessed Cheesemaker can you not see attacks against Noah and the flood are based upon natural laws which are now in conflict with what we know? If we cannot resolve this conflict of apparent mass within a weak force reality becomes what we think not what we once thought real (physical/with mass). I can only hope the movie Matrix was not a docu.mentary.

          There is no evidence for a worldwide flood and more than enough to discredit any claims to the contrary. I can only hope you get some help. You try and sound "scientific" as an attempt ligitimize your point, and then attempt to discredit science in the next breath.

          March 6, 2014 at 6:53 pm |
        • MidwestKen

          believerfred
          @believerfred,
          "Sorry, but we do it all the time. The best example relates to dark matter where properties are inferred based on its gravitational effects alone."

          Not entirely sure what you mean by "it" here, but dark matter is not a supernatural explanation.

          " In reality (as we know it today) there is no mass present in what is referred to as dark matter which creates a big problem that makes the apple Eve ate more real than the apple which fell on Newton's head (i.e. we know the apple did not fall on Newton's head which led to a truth concerning gravity)"

          What do you mean by no mass present in dark matter?

          March 6, 2014 at 7:17 pm |
        • believerfred

          Blessed are the Cheesemakers

          "This is a lie fred, you seem to be making up your own reality in addition to the made up claims of your religion."
          =>No, Dark Matter is not matter it is simply a place card holder while science scrambles to account for the majority of missing mass in our universe. It is not matter at all but hypothesized matter so that the apple cart of gravitational theory and relativity are not overturned. This is very important because if some new previously unknown subatomic particles are not discovered to fill in this missing mass there is no possibility of multiverse leaving the fine tuning argument unchallenged which brings down the "no god needed' argument. Science is not what you think it is when dealing with origin as it under the control of philosophical naturalism with a bias away from the possibility of supernatural. That is not science as science should be neutral to the possibility of supernatural, should it not? Hawking makes no bones about finding a unified theory that will put the issue of supernatural to rest permanently.
          I stand by my claim that as to origin science has lost its objectivity. When we moved from observable particles to Relativistic Quantum Field Theory the mathematical abstracts will produce results dependent upon view point. If in doubt you can find a real good example from Hawking on how approach changes results here: http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0602091v2

          =>I am not saying that just because science is forced into applying tensors to prove existence of subatomic particles in abstract that this proves or disproves the existence of God. I am saying we have moved into an area that is not limited by physical realities of observable natural laws. The lines of physical and metaphysical have been blurred as what we are seeing is hardly empirical activity.

          March 7, 2014 at 2:02 pm |
        • believerfred

          MidwestKen
          "What do you mean by no mass present in dark matter?"
          =>Dark matter is misleading as it actually is the absence of matter that should exist. A specific amount of mass is required to cause the observed effect between weak and strong forces in the universe. The problem is that this mass does not throw off any detectible signatures. There are several speculative theories as to why we cannot find what must exist, in the meantime there is no mass present.

          March 7, 2014 at 2:18 pm |
        • MidwestKen

          @believerfred,
          "There are several speculative theories as to why we cannot find what must exist, in the meantime there is no mass present."

          Perhaps I misunderstand, but the mass is there. That is the main reason why dark matter is suspected, its gravitational effects, i.e. its mass. The "mystery" of dark matter is 'why can't we detect the matter in other ways besides just its mass'.

          March 9, 2014 at 10:56 am |
    • igaftr

      Before in the beginning, there was a group of men who compiled a book that started "in the beginning".

      March 6, 2014 at 1:05 pm |
      • believerfred

        There was the oral traditions and direct revelation that which Moses and Job reflected in their fear of the Lord. Moses put Genesis to writing so in that regard yes. A man wrote down "In the beginning God"

        March 6, 2014 at 1:54 pm |
    • joey3467

      Why just take the bible's word for it and not the word of some other god?

      March 6, 2014 at 1:50 pm |
      • believerfred

        The Bible seems to cover all the other gods. They feared the nation of Israel because God was with them.

        March 6, 2014 at 1:56 pm |
        • neverbeenhappieratheist

          Thats funny, the other religions books say the same thing about your God being the imposter. And since he asked why should we take the bibles word for it over any other books, your answer does not address that. You simply state that your book covers the other gods, not why we should believe your book over any other. I know the answer for you is "Because I want to believe it, and I think I am normal one so anyone I consider normal should be like me and believe it to." but that really isn't a very good answer is it.

          March 6, 2014 at 2:07 pm |
        • believerfred

          neverbeenhappieratheist
          Actually, I explained that when I said the other nations feared Israel because God was with them. If any other nations gods were greater they would have no fear but, they knew their gods could not stand. Isaiah said best in Isaiah 40 noting the poor among them made gods out of wood fashioned by craftsmen. Much fun was poked at what happens when their gods would fall and break or rot under the elements. The people knew this. Even the founders of our country knew this when they asked God (the Supreme Judge of the world) that we are in His will before unanimously signing the Declaration of Independence. In the last 200 some years not another nation has overpowered that one nation under God indivisible. Since the day God changed the name of Jacob to Israel the Nation of Israel remains as promised to Abraham long before the Bible was even put to writing. Likewise the other nation that came out of Ishmael (Arab nations) was blessed as promised to Abraham and to this very day kicks against its brother Israel. A prophecy that goes back to the days God was with His Chosen Ones.
          What god or gods do you suggest can be compared to our living God that is and always has been? I don't know of any, nor do I know of any holy books that get it right. What Holy Book are you speaking about?

          March 6, 2014 at 2:37 pm |
        • Alias

          So what was that bit about "iron charriots" again?

          March 7, 2014 at 2:32 pm |
        • believerfred

          Alias
          Thank you for bringing iron chariots to mind just when I was in need of assurance that strength comes when God is with us.
          Seems that in Judges 1:19 (if that is what you are referring to) Israel lost faith in God who was with them. When they lost faith they fell into doubt that God would deliver and feared these iron chariots. The notion of God with you (real or imagined) can bring about some incredible results. Loss of that firm knowledge God is with you, in the slightest degree, brings about that sudden reliance of self and who are we to stand up to iron chariots.
          So, should it turn out God always was but a figment of our imagination are we not a better people because of it? Certainly some really bad things come with all sorts of convictions as well (Stalin etc) but, if we all followed the way Jesus made clear this would be one loving planet.

          March 7, 2014 at 3:07 pm |
  7. Doris

    “A three-day-old human embryo is a collection of 150 cells called a blastocyst. There are, for the sake of comparison, more than 100,000 cells in the brain of a fly. The human embryos that are destroyed in stem-cell research do not have brains, or even neurons. Consequently, there is no reason to believe they can suffer their destruction in any way at all. It is worth remembered, in this context, that when a person's brain has died, we currently deem it acceptable to harvest his organs (provided he has donated them for this purpose) and bury him in the ground. If it is acceptable to treat a person whose brain has died as something less than a human being, it should be acceptable to treat a blastocyst as such. If you are concerned about suffering in this universe, killing a fly should present you with greater moral difficulties than killing a human blastocyst.

    Perhaps you think that the crucial difference between a fly and a human blastocyst is to be found in the latter's potential to become a fully developed human being. But almost every cell in your body is a potential human being, given our recent advances in genetic engineering. Every time you scratch your nose, you have committed a Holocaust of potential human beings.”

    –Sam Harris

    March 6, 2014 at 10:15 am |
  8. Austin

    When my best friend was dying i stayed in the hospital at night with him. I had two visions one night. Both came very true immediately. One was the eagle and shoes.
    The other...i was having a conversation with a drag demon that was designated to my friend. The demon accused christ of mot forgivving all of.my.friends sins.

    I knew dan must had some secrets involving something of the gay realm becsuse of the drag demon.

    2 days later andy a friend of ours fron eighth grade spilled a major major secret that in 20 years dan never told me. And the gay demon was that spiritual revelation that was soon confirmed.

    This was my fourth encounter with mocking gay demons in my dreams.
    They are supernaturally agressive .

    March 6, 2014 at 10:14 am |
    • observernow

      Austin,

      If there was ANY truth to this nonsense, you'd prove it.

      ZERO CREDIBILITY.

      March 6, 2014 at 10:21 am |
    • Doris

      Austin, I certainly hope you danced naked around a virgin campfire to jettison those gay demons forthright! 🙄

      March 6, 2014 at 10:26 am |
    • Alias

      Sounds like some part of your brain knew he was gay all along.

      March 6, 2014 at 11:09 am |
  9. Austin

    Verse in old testament about a few demon posessed men who wanted to drag a prophet out of the house and "go in to him"

    This means there are pervet demons. The influential origin of the error.

    March 6, 2014 at 10:04 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      But Lot taught us what to do when that happens.
      Just toss your young, vir/gin daughters over to said ravenous mob of demons to be ra/ped.

      March 6, 2014 at 10:08 am |
      • Austin

        Puzzling indeed those misguided people helpless too.

        March 6, 2014 at 10:39 am |
        • doobzz

          And yet in your god's eyes, Lot was supposedly righteous enough to be saved from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, even after offering his daughters to the mob.

          March 6, 2014 at 11:45 am |
    • Doris

      Pervet – don't they make paper dinnerware?

      March 6, 2014 at 10:10 am |
      • derado8

        Yes it's really evil dinner ware.

        March 6, 2014 at 11:27 am |
      • doobzz

        Makes the clean up so much easier after your next gay demonic orgy.

        March 6, 2014 at 11:47 am |
  10. Austin

    The ho.mo se.xual temptation is an attack on children and a.strangle hold on peoples minds.

    No different than aa physical perp, satan is a mental perp.

    I have seen many perverted demons.in my dreams. They are here.unconfessed sin is such a foothold of hellish proportions.

    CONFESS SIN AND ATTACT THE DEMONIC FOOTHOLD.

    March 6, 2014 at 9:58 am |
    • Doris

      Here a "perp", there a "perp", everywhere a "perp" "perp".

      LOL – Austin, what a dufus.

      March 6, 2014 at 10:03 am |
    • Doris

      Austin, you're just a spell-checker and a series of psychiatric appointments away from a better tomorrow. But you'll still need some se-x education of course.

      March 6, 2014 at 10:08 am |
    • James XCIX

      Austin –

      I'm guessing you've never experienced the "h.omos.exual temptation". The vast majority of people haven't, yet everyone has experienced the temptation for certain other "sins", such as lying, stealing, etc. Why do you suppose the temptation for the "sin" of h.omos.exuality is so restricted?

      March 6, 2014 at 10:11 am |
      • Austin

        Its not special.

        March 6, 2014 at 10:45 am |
    • mannyf11

      I find it funny Austin that when you speak the truth people call names crack jokes.. But have no answers for there theories.. Who's the real dufus

      March 6, 2014 at 10:12 am |
      • midwest rail

        " But have no answers ..."
        Says the guy who has thus far avoided directly answering a single question posed to him.

        March 6, 2014 at 10:14 am |
        • mannyf11

          I answered all

          March 6, 2014 at 10:18 am |
        • midwest rail

          You gave answers that in no way addressed the question, yes.

          March 6, 2014 at 10:21 am |
      • mannyf11

        Marriage is for men n women to become 1 flesh.. So they may be fruitful and multiply.. Man n man. Can man carry 9 months. Be real

        March 6, 2014 at 10:14 am |
        • midwest rail

          So you oppose marriage for naturally infertile couples and those who simply choose to remain childless ?

          March 6, 2014 at 10:17 am |
        • myweightinwords

          Seriously? That's your argument?

          You do know that a) this world is over populated; b) straight people who do not want or can not have kids have sex and get married legally; c) not all religions believe this 1 man, 1 woman tripe; d) a gay couple can adopt or use a surrogate to build their family, just like a straight couple that can not have kids of their own.

          Come out of the dark, let love into your heart.

          March 6, 2014 at 10:24 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          My common-law husband and I can't have children, does that mean we shouldn't be allowed to marry?? What about the elderly?
          And btw: it is very possible for LGBT couples to have children...invitro is one example...oh and there is no evidence that these children will turn out to be gay due to having been raised by two consenting adults who happen to be in love and are of the same gender.
          Marriage is defined by the state/country you reside in, not by the bible. It is the state that issues the marriage license that is required to make the marriage legal.
          Stay out of their bedrooms and they'll stay out of yours.

          March 6, 2014 at 11:42 am |
        • doobzz

          Well, mannyf11, if god made a "woman" out of Adam's rib, then the "woman" was a genetically identical male.

          So I guess it really was Adam and Steve.

          March 6, 2014 at 11:57 am |
        • James XCIX

          midwest rail – "So you oppose marriage for naturally infertile couples and those who simply choose to remain childless ?"

          St Augustine thought se_x was strictly for procreation and was a sin even for married couples if they could not produce children due to sterility. Didn't care if they were married (I think), but they couldn't have se_x, in his view. So oddball views have been around for a while.

          March 6, 2014 at 2:44 pm |
    • myweightinwords

      The ho.mo se.xual temptation is an attack on children and a.strangle hold on peoples minds.

      No. Pedophiles are an attack on children. Pedophiles do not equal homosexuals.

      Homosexuality is not a demon, nor is it caused by a demon, nor does it possess people's minds.

      No different than aa physical perp, satan is a mental perp.

      What does this even mean?

      I have seen many perverted demons.in my dreams. They are here.unconfessed sin is such a foothold of hellish proportions.

      You've dreamed a lot of crazy stuff. Dreams are the realm of the subconscious. Usually, they serve to tell us about ourselves. If you're dreaming about perverted demons, perhaps you should consider that seeing to your own perversion.

      CONFESS SIN AND ATTACT THE DEMONIC FOOTHOLD.

      Sin is an invention of your religion, not mine. I have no sin. Therefore, I have nothing to confess.

      March 6, 2014 at 10:16 am |
    • observernow

      Austin

      "I have seen many perverted demons.in my dreams"

      Dreams can be secret wishes. You might want to seek professional help.

      March 6, 2014 at 10:23 am |
    • TruthPrevails1

      Oh Austin, you poor delusional man...just because no-one wants to bed down with you doesn't mean you get to prevent others from enjoying the shear pleasure of sex...you have a hand-use it and btw, they do make toys for boys like you!

      March 6, 2014 at 10:50 am |
      • Doc Vestibule

        I get the feeling that Austin would rather one of these: http://cb-x.com/cb6k.html – as opposed to a fleshlight.

        March 6, 2014 at 11:13 am |
  11. Doris

    “Theology is ignorance with wings.”

    “120 million of us place the big bang 2,500 years after the Babylonians and Sumerians learned to brew beer.”

    [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i3mX0YRrjM&w=640&h=360]

    March 6, 2014 at 9:47 am |
  12. Doris

    Christmas, 2012:

    Pope Benedict turned and blessed Uganda Parliament Speaker Rebecca Kadaga, accepting from Uganda's top lawmaker a Christmas gift promise in the form of a bill to "Kill all the Gays" in Uganda.

    I have an early Christmas present for Austin:

    [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OgAXbyzP5g&w=640&h=360]

    March 6, 2014 at 9:39 am |
    • derado8

      That Uganda stuff made me cry, I'm normally not upset by things but that was really insane.

      March 6, 2014 at 9:50 am |
  13. Austin

    If you are expecting an advance for the ho.mo se.xual sgenda through the pope you are simply exploiting this denominations weaknessess as an attack on the word of God.

    The pope is.your pawn. Is that why the press is all over him.? TaKe your foot off the fundamental word of God.

    It is written. Idolaters will not inherit the kingsdom.

    Your quest here is an evil one. Encouraging sinners not to repent .

    False teachers.

    March 6, 2014 at 9:35 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      And what do you imagine is the "ho/mose/xual agenda" ?

      March 6, 2014 at 9:40 am |
      • derado8

        They sneak into people's houses and redecorate.

        March 6, 2014 at 9:47 am |
        • Doc Vestibule

          That explains where that Victorian Credenza in my living room came from.

          March 6, 2014 at 9:53 am |
        • midwest rail

          Is said credenza for sale ?? 😉

          March 6, 2014 at 9:54 am |
        • Austin

          Here we have.a.church with magnifying glass on abusive prisets

          This is an open door . The catholic church has opened tje door to exloitation of the word of God.

          Ill be honest. There is a league of hom.mos.exual demons that lead this illness.

          Lust is a powetful avenue for demonic attack. Obsession and se.xuual slavery is a demonic foothold ran by invisable and real persons of the fallen perverted angels.

          March 6, 2014 at 9:54 am |
        • midwest rail

          " There is a league of hom.mos.exual demons that lead this illness."
          Gotta be a poe. It is simply not possible for one human to be this uninformed.

          March 6, 2014 at 9:58 am |
        • Doc Vestibule

          The door to exploitation of the Word of God has been wide open for a long, long time.
          Priests and shamans should be viewed with susp.icion no matter what their denomination – and most especially if they pass a collection plate.

          You're giving off the vibe that you think any kind of se.xual urge is something to feel guilty about – and if that is the case, I feel sorry for you.
          There can be s.ex without love and love without s.ex, but when they come together it is the pinnacle of what is best about being human.

          March 6, 2014 at 10:02 am |
      • myweightinwords

        The last super secret homosexual meeting I attended attempted to agree on The Agenda, but some wanted to do tea service, others wanted a luncheon, there was a whole contingent of bears and bikers that wanted to chuck the whole thing in favor of a fundraiser for AIDs charities. No one could decide if we should have entertainment, though there was a strong vote for Liza Minelli and Barbara Streisand to share the stage if we did or if we should keep it strictly business. Then there were the disagreements over what that business should be.

        Some wanted discussion panels on everything. Others wanted to focus on decor. Still others on social justice. Oh, and not to forget the glitter committee.

        It was a mess.

        In the end, the actual Agenda was tabled for another meeting.

        March 6, 2014 at 10:09 am |
        • Doc Vestibule

          Well that's too bad.
          The hom/ose/xual recruitment drive needs some revamping, I think. No matter what they do to promote being gay, the numbers just don't seem to get any higher than around 1 in 10 people.
          The secret is to find out exactly when people make the choice to be gay or straight and try to sway the decision.
          Of course, the idea of choosing to attracted to men and therefore getting persecuted by friends and family was undoubtedly appealing – I mean, who could resist getting called derisive names and being beaten up by bullies?
          In the end, I just couldn't make up my mind and had to flip a coin.

          March 6, 2014 at 10:48 am |
    • James XCIX

      Austin – " Idolaters will not inherit the kingsdom"

      Why do you refer to Catholics as idolaters?

      March 6, 2014 at 9:53 am |
  14. Austin

    He has also said that the church should not “interfere” in the spiritual lives of gays and lesbians."

    This is where the pope is questionable when on not biblically ffundamental. He is saying that there is life in habitual sin lifestyles. The issue here is the importance of declaring a sin lifestyle and what God says about that. The bible truth and direction is supernaturally best.

    You are freed from your sins. become a slave of righteousness trusting the resurrection word and casting your burdens at the foot of the cross is required of fornicators idolaters and liars adulters ect.

    Dump your sins on jesus and flee from temptation mentally and physically.

    Resist the devil and he will flee.

    March 6, 2014 at 9:23 am |
    • Austin

      Baptism unto freedom.

      Church discpline is called for. This is different than stoning and the curse if the o.t. law.

      Putting false teachers and habitual adulterers out is an act of love.

      God will turn your flesh over to satanic judgment and death to preserve your soul from corruption. This is a verse that is written.

      You are not a slave to sin if Christ is risen.

      March 6, 2014 at 9:30 am |
    • igaftr

      "become a slave of righteousness"
      LMFAO...that's a good one.

      Get help austin. Seriously. Get help.

      March 6, 2014 at 9:33 am |
      • Austin

        Google romans slave.to righteousness.

        Main central new testament doctrine.

        March 6, 2014 at 9:38 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Did you miss this "Get help austin. Seriously. Get help"??? It would be in your best interest and the interest of society for you to take that advice...you're suffering from some crazy delusions.

          March 6, 2014 at 10:12 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      Remember gays: There's room enough for all of you in God's closet.

      Did you know that early Christians, including the revered theologan Origen, were fond of castrating themselves in order to avoid temptation and literally heed Christ's words in Matthew 19:12
      "For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."

      Are you dedicated enough to cut off your own naughty bits in the name of Jesus?

      March 6, 2014 at 9:35 am |
      • Austin

        Doc if christ is risen yiu are no longer a flesh driven creature.

        If hes not why be religious ?

        You are umdermining the resurrection and baptismal supernatural freedom alnd sanctification .

        Why would you push such slavery?

        March 6, 2014 at 9:43 am |
        • Doc Vestibule

          Just because you accept Christ, that doesn't take away the drivings of your meat machine.
          In the words of the Apostle Paul, " it is better to marry than to burn with passion".
          If you don't want to get married, Matthew 19 suggests castrating yourself.

          March 6, 2014 at 9:51 am |
    • mannyf11

      Thank you Austin

      March 6, 2014 at 9:45 am |
      • TruthPrevails1

        One crazy thanking the other...now there's a surprise!! Silly children, imaginary friends are for children...time to grow up!

        March 6, 2014 at 10:09 am |
  15. Doc Vestibule

    Catholic Dogma will never change – that's why it's dogma.
    There won't be any women priests, they'll never perform a gay marriage ceremony, they'll always oppose birth control etc. ad nauseum.
    Francis has made no bones about this. Those expecting him to revolutionize the RCC by making it more liberal are going to be disappointed.
    What he is doing is behaving in a far more Christian way, hopefully leading by example so that others may emulate his compassion and humility. He's not afraid to dine with publicans and sinners, nor does he condemn them from his fiery pulpit.
    He's doing wonders in building bridges between the Vatican and the hellbound (well, in their opinion anyways).
    But beyond reforming the RCC's public image, he is making moves to show they're trying to address their scandals.
    He has re-organized the Vatican Bank, firing the old guard, appointing a Secretariat for the Economy who is known for his outspoken opposition to the way in which the Vatican has handled their finances, and for the first in history, has opened Vatican finances to outside scrutiny.
    ( http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/24/us-vatican-bank-idUSBREA1N0TA20140224 )

    If only he would shake up the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in the same way and demand that they be made publically accountable it'd be a good start in atoning for the pedo priest scandals throughout the world.

    March 6, 2014 at 8:55 am |
    • Doris

      Agreed.

      But be careful here: "What he is doing is behaving in a far more Christian way"

      To me, he is behaving in a far more moderate Christian way, and although I find that difficult to describe specifically, perhaps I would use examples of moderate Christians:

      –the one who can give time and money to those less fortunate without strings attached

      –the one who will stand up for the rights of others even if specifics of belief are different (Anglican Madison protecting the interests of persecuted Baptists in Virginia as an example)

      March 6, 2014 at 9:29 am |
  16. Karen Moffett

    Reblogged this on Savor Simple Life and commented:
    Talk about counter-culture; he is so different from anything we've seen. I personally think that's a good thing.

    March 6, 2014 at 8:35 am |
    • Blessed are the Cheesemakers

      He is really not that different, he still minimizes the RCC's role in child abuse and other issues. He is better...but that is a relative term.

      and

      Mr. Rodgers could run the Hells Angels...it is still the Hells Angels.

      March 6, 2014 at 9:47 am |
  17. STLloyd

    Reblogged this on Serve Him in the Waiting and commented:
    Was only a matter of time!

    March 6, 2014 at 5:55 am |
  18. observernow

    Pope Francis may not have opened any doors yet, but at least he's unlocked some that have been bolted shut for centuries.

    March 6, 2014 at 2:31 am |
    • Bootyfunk

      agreed, he's opened zero doors. he's taken zero action. he's accomplished zero.

      March 6, 2014 at 6:31 am |
  19. es44ac

    Anything the Catholic Church supports run in the opposite direction.

    March 6, 2014 at 2:03 am |
  20. bootyfunk

    maybe they should post a story about the pope after he's actually DONE something.
    he's said a few flowery, ambiguous words about a few controversial subjects - but what has he actually done?
    he hasn't changed church doctrine or dogma.
    he still agrees g.ays should not be able to marry
    he still agrees women cannot be leaders in his church
    he has done nothing to stem the tide of child molesters in his ranks
    the list goes on....

    what has the pope actually accomplished to be given so much credit and publicity?

    March 6, 2014 at 1:53 am |
    • observernow

      He has shown that he isn't following the completely unyielding statements of popes from the past.

      March 6, 2014 at 2:26 am |
      • Bootyfunk

        has he? what has he DONE to prove that?
        he hasn't made it policy to that the church help find and prosecute molester priests. he's done nothing but say he's gonna be tough on the child molesters from now on - but he hasn't actually done anything. the church has a list of priests they know to be offenders, but doesn't give it to authorities? all popes say they're really gonna root out the molesters, but do nothing to that effect. so far, this pope is no different.

        again, what has he actually done?

        March 6, 2014 at 6:28 am |
        • mannyf11

          And that's what's with wrong with Catholics.. Don't follow the right book and changing up their doctrines.. Kjv will always remain true.. Catholics do not acknowledge Christ in the spirit cause they don't have his spirit.. Only with there mouths and no heart behind it misguiding people.. It's a shame people are so brain washed find a real Holy Ghost filled church not about money n watch the non believer become an actual believer..

          March 6, 2014 at 7:32 am |
        • the0g0to0the0t

          "Kjv will always remain true" – I'll never understand how anyone can actually believe this.

          March 6, 2014 at 7:42 am |
        • mannyf11

          Cause it's true.. The word will never change for it has been rewritten for different readings and a ability to understand and people still don't because they don't have gods Holy Spirit.. When you read the bible you study it just don't read it really focus on it.. God warns us of these false prophets set to destroy his image.. And the pope has people really believing huh??? So did all the other popes and hasn't nothing changed except their evil ways and doctrines.. But the kjv the original will not changed.. Or be cursed

          March 6, 2014 at 7:53 am |
        • mannyf11

          Read Mark chapter 7 6-9 kjv n see what's just a portion says about people who claim to be with god by mouth n not by spirit.. The Holy Spirit is a covenant god hives the righteous.. Not the phony.. That's y the pope don't know nothing. Let em tell it.. He don't love god but loves satan twisting ways.. The devil comes to STEAL KILL AND DESTROY

          March 6, 2014 at 7:56 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Austin, is that you?

          manny: We apologize that the education system has failed you, however it is not too late. There is plenty of evidence to show that your favorite book of fairy tales is largely false. If you'd like some help in where it fails, we will be happy to show you.

          March 6, 2014 at 8:09 am |
        • fintronics

          @manny,,, "people still don't because they don't have gods Holy Spirit.. "

          Really? again with the belief in ghosts???.... who ya gonna call?

          March 6, 2014 at 8:16 am |
        • mannyf11

          Yeah show me n I'll show you your wrong.. And if your going to go by man made written stuff. Don't bring it over this way.. I know my god is real.. I have my proof.. Real proof.. And I'll die for The Lord instead of satan or this country. Straight like that.. N gods spirit is not ghost. It's a spirit.. People can go to rehab for yearsssssss never get clean.. Go down in that holy baptismal water.. N watch god remove all old things as you come up a new creature. Anyt nothin false about it.. I seen it with my own eyes.. But your proof my proof is wrong.. Let's get to it and make sure it's not man written

          March 6, 2014 at 8:48 am |
        • mannyf11

          You fools are so brain washed. I would love for god to move in one of you guys life so that you can bear witness.. So what's so HOLY about the pope the false prophet.. His teachings aren't true.. He probably don't even pray.. Ooops to Mary.. The sinner. Be real.. Idolatry just like any other false religion.. Real Christianity will not prevail..

          March 6, 2014 at 8:52 am |
        • Doc Vestibule

          Manny:
          So which tartan does the True Scotsman wear?
          Which of the tens of thousands of interpretations of the Bible is The One True Religion?
          And are you certain you've got ALL of God's words?
          Remember, there are 73 books in the Catholic, 78 in Eastern Orthodox, 81 in Ethiopian Orthodox, 66 in most Protestant Bibles and 65 in the Mormon canon.

          March 6, 2014 at 8:59 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          "if your going to go by man made written stuff. Don't bring it over this way."

          Too funny, you too go by man made written stuff. We know the bible was written by man, there is no evidence that some divine god had any hand in it.

          March 6, 2014 at 9:01 am |
        • mannyf11

          God gave the authors of the book in the bible the wisdom to write these books.. God told them what to write.. It does not contradict it does not lie.. The kjv... And yea a lot of bibles have been translated for better understanding.. Cause kjv is not understandable in Hebrew. Can you speak Hebrew.. But all these false people say we serve the same god.. Please.. How we serve the same and they don't know the truth... The kjv is the realest book ever written and it still stands till this day.. It'll probably be banned soon.. Cause you non believers don't want god in your life but when something happens who the first people call on.. GOD.. God hears all hearts don't expect nothing from god if you can't do what he ask..

          March 6, 2014 at 9:10 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          "God gave the authors of the book in the bible the wisdom"

          You do not know that. There is nothing to support that claim outside of your bible and your bible doesn't count as evidence. Give me something outside of your religion...something that has nothing to do with it, otherwise you're just another who has fallen prey to the greatest con game ever played on man kind.
          Tell us, why should we accept your god over the pagan gods and goddesses or over Thor or Odin or or or??? What makes your god any more real and how are you so certain??

          March 6, 2014 at 9:15 am |
        • midwest rail

          " It'll probably be banned soon.."
          Where ? Why ? That is the silliest statement I've seen today.

          March 6, 2014 at 9:16 am |
        • Doc Vestibule

          So what did Christians do to get "The Truth" for the 1500 years before the KJV?

          Have you read the American Standard Version, American King James Version, Amplified Bible, An American Translation, ArtScroll Tanakh (Old Testament), An American Translation, Berkeley Version, Bible in English, The Bible in Living English, Bishops' Bible, Catholic Public Domain Version, Children's King James Version, Christian Community Bible, English version, Clear Word Bible, Complete Jewish Bible, Contemporary English Version, Concordant Literal Version, A Conservative Version, Coverdale Bible, Darby Bible, Douay-Rheims Bible, Douay-Rheims Bible (Challoner Revision), EasyEnglish Bible, Easy-to-Read Version, English Jubilee 2000 Bible, English Standard Version, Ferrar Fenton Bible, Geneva Bible, God's Word, Good News Bible, Great Bible, Holman Christian Standard Bible, The Inclusive Bible, International Standard Version, Jerusalem Bible, Jewish Publication Society of America Version Tanakh (Old Testament), Judaica Press Tanakh (Old Testament), ia E. Smith Parker Translation, King James 2000 Version, King James Easy Reading Version, King James Version, King James II Version, Knox's Translation of the Vulgate, Lamsa Bible, A Literal Translation of the Bible, Leeser Bible, Tanakh (Old Testament), The Living Bible, The Living Torah and The Living Nach. Tanakh (Old Testament), Matthew's Bible, The Message, Modern King James Version, Modern Language Bible, Moffatt, New Translation, James Murdock's Translation of the Syriac Peshi.tta, New American Bible, New American Standard Bible, New Century Version, New English Bible, New English Translation (NET Bible), New International Reader's Version, New International Version Inclusive Language Edition, New International Version, New Jerusalem Bible, New Jewish Publication Society of America Version. Tanakh (Old Testament), New King James Version, New Life Version, New Living Translation, New Revised Standard Version, New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, Quaker Bible, Recovery Version of the Bible, Revised Version, Revised Standard Version, Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition, Revised English Bible, Rotherham's Emphasized Bible, The Scriptures, Simplified English Bible, The Story Bible, Taverner's Bible, Thomson's Translation, Today's New International Version, Third Millennium Bible, Tyndale Bible, Updated King James Version, A Voice In The Wilderness Holy Scriptures, Webster's Revision, Westminster Bible, The Work of God's Children Illustrated Bible, Wycliffe's Bible (1380), Wycliffe's Bible (1388), Young's Literal Translation in order to be able to dismiss them as false?

          March 6, 2014 at 9:17 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          "don't expect nothing from god if you can't do what he ask."

          WHAT??? Why would I or anyone else who has seen the light of reason (aka disbelief) expect anything from something we see zero evidence for? I am not certain why it is so hard for you to comprehend that some of us do just fine without the need for an imaginary god to guide us. You may be that gullible and weak but not all are and those who aren't are the ones who will save your sorry ass when out species (like 99% of others) sits on the brink of extinction (no god needed...just man).

          March 6, 2014 at 9:21 am |
        • mannyf11

          You don't have the evidence because your being lead wrong.. I'm not hear to argue and all of that. I don't do even do these blogs and stuff but people need to know the truth.. N as a child of god we are suppose to deliver his word so people would not be fooled by false teachings. If I didn't know god was real I wouldn't say he is.. If I didn't know anything about god I wouldn't talk god. I'd talk sin just like people who don't The Lord.. The proof is in the pudding.. I should be dead in jail either one. God had his hand on me even though I fell away from him but god will bring you back. That Holy Ghost spirit gods gives us as a covenant. God has a plan for every1. I'm telling you with god all things are possible.. The kjv precisely speaks on truth.. No way around it.. N no1 can tell me otherwise cause I know for a fact..

          March 6, 2014 at 9:42 am |
        • midwest rail

          "...as a child of god we are suppose to deliver his word..."
          Then why are you all so BAD at it ? Given the behavior of contemporary Christians on these pages, why would anyone want to follow your lead ? Why would anyone want to be like you ?

          March 6, 2014 at 9:45 am |
        • mannyf11

          Because your getting the wrong approach.. I'm not telling anyone what to do.. I know where the truth stands and I'm just a witness.. I tell you no lies. I'm not oboma.. Satan worshiper. But I speak only on behalf of what I know... That's all I'm saying. We all were raised different and taught different things. If I came up catholic I'd be for the pope to.. Not knowing the truth. Go find a real believer somewhere round you let em witness to you.. N be of good example.. Not a false religion believer neither. A real believer. There's a difference.

          March 6, 2014 at 9:50 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          manny: You failed to answer any of my questions. You say you speak the truth and we're saying that we don't accept it...show us outside of the bible or anything that references it why you think you have the truth.

          March 6, 2014 at 10:00 am |
        • igaftr

          mannyf11
          "no1 can tell me otherwise cause I know for a fact.."

          Ahh, the self delusion of belief.
          You don't want truth, you want your belief to be truth.

          March 6, 2014 at 10:01 am |
        • mannyf11

          How can I go outside of my religion and try to get some1 or something to prove I'm telling the truth.. That sounds so stupid unless you ask a non believer turnt believer.. That's about it. Most of my friends and family don't know god.. I wouldn't know god if it wasn't for what he did for my mom n stepdad.. I promise to you they went under that holy baptismal water n god cleansed them from everything.. No more drugs liquor nothing. It wasn't rehab.. It was The Lord.. Went from sleeping n da back of the car to a 4 bedroom with 3 cars.. N I bear witness now that my parents stopped going to church a couple years ago. Y who knows. But god is taking everything from them. Basically starting back where they came from before they knew The Lord.. God can give the and take away.. And this is all stuff I seen with my mine own eyes. If your parents were never on drugs and all that other stuff you cannot relate

          March 6, 2014 at 10:10 am |
        • Doc Vestibule

          @Manny
          I am an addict.
          I had a serious problem with all types of intoxicants with stimulants like amphetamines topping the list.
          By the time I was 20, I had attended no fewer than a dozen of my friends' funerals as was well on the way to my own.
          It wasn't God who gave me strength to clean up – it was my own willpower and the support of my family.
          I had to take responsibility for myself in order to climb out of that mindset.
          I was clean for three years when I relapsed and had to start the struggle all over again, this time without my family's immediate help and support. In the decade or so since then, I've abstained from old habits not because I shifted responsibility for my personal wellbeing onto a supernatural enti/ty, but because I value myself.
          My partner and our child have never seen that side of me and I have promised myself that they never will.

          March 6, 2014 at 10:39 am |
        • snuffleupagus

          Doc, you forgot one: Reader Digest Condensed Version: Adam said:"Yes dear." So, "In the begining was the word, and She had the last one."

          March 6, 2014 at 12:45 pm |
        • Doc Vestibule

          Reminds me of an old joke:
          "I came. I saw. She conquered."
          The original Latin seems to have been mistranslated.

          March 6, 2014 at 3:14 pm |
    • saggyroy

      He has put together a pretty slick marketing program. Not that he would need that to sell anything to his "flock".

      March 6, 2014 at 5:35 am |
      • Bootyfunk

        agreed. man of the year? lol. how does he possibly deserve that? for his h.omphobic and misogynistic views?

        March 6, 2014 at 6:29 am |
        • saggyroy

          Well Hitler was once Time's man of the year. Go Figure.

          March 7, 2014 at 5:25 am |
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About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.