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 Pope Francis speaks at St Peter's square on December 11, 2013.
March 5th, 2014
10:04 AM ET
Pope Francis: Church could support civil unionsBy Daniel Burke, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor (CNN) - Pope Francis reaffirmed the Catholic Church's opposition to gay marriage on Wednesday, but suggested in a newspaper interview that it could support some types of civil unions. The Pope reiterated the church's longstanding teaching that "marriage is between a man and a woman." However, he said, "We have to look at different cases and evaluate them in their variety." States, for instance, justify civil unions as a way to provide economic security to cohabitating couples, the Pope said in a wide-ranging interview published Wednesday in Corriere della Sera, an Italian daily. State-sanctioned unions are thus driven by the need to ensure rights like access to health care, Francis added. A number of Catholic bishops have supported civil unions for same-sex couples as an alternative to marriage, including Pope Francis when he was Archbishop of Buenos Aires in 2010, according to reports in National Catholic Reporter and The New York Times. Behind closed doors, pope supported civil unions in Argentina, activist says But Wednesday's comments are "the first time a Pope has indicated even tentative acceptance of civil unions," according to Catholic News Service. Later on Wednesday, a Vatican spokesman sought to clarify the Pope's remarks. "The Pope did not choose to enter into debates about the delicate matter of gay civil unions," said the Rev. Thomas Rosica, a consultant to the Vatican press office. "In his response to the interviewer, he emphasized the natural characteristic of marriage between one man and one woman, and on the other hand, he also spoke about the obligation of the state to fulfill its responsibilities towards its citizens." "We should not try to read more into the Pope’s words than what has been stated in very general terms," Rosica added. Pope Francis, who marks his first year in office on March 13, has sought to set a more tolerant tone for his 1 billion-member church and suggested that a broad range of topics are at least open for discussion. In January, the Pope recalled a little girl in Buenos Aires who told her teacher that she was sad because "my mother's girlfriend doesn't like me." "The situation in which we live now provides us with new challenges which sometimes are difficult for us to understand," the Pope told leaders of religious orders, adding that the church "must be careful not to administer a vaccine against faith to them." The Vatican later denied that those comments signaled an opening toward same-sex unions. Last June, Francis famously refused to judge gay priests in comments that ricocheted around the world. He has also said that the church should not "interfere" in the spiritual lives of gays and lesbians. Pope Francis' greatest hits of 2013 Support of same-sex unions of any type is fiercely contested by many Catholic church leaders. In Wednesday's interview, Francis also addressed several other controversial issues, including the Catholic Church's ban on contraception, the role of women and the devastating clergy sexual abuse scandal. On contraception, the Pope praised Pope Paul VI for having the "courage" to "go against the majority" when restating the ban in 1968. But, Francis said, the church must also be "merciful" and "attentive to concrete situations." Contraception and church's ban on divorced Catholics receiving holy communion, will likely be addressed at major meetings of Catholic bishops in Rome in 2014 and 2015. “We must give a response. But to do so, we must reflect much in depth,” the Pope said Wednesday. On the role of women in the church, an issue of particular concern to Catholics in the United States, the Pope hinted that changes could be in the works. "Women must be present in all of the places where decisions are taken," Francis said in the newspaper interview, but the church must consider more than "functional" roles for women. To that end, Catholic leaders are engaged in "deep reflection" on women's role in the church, he said. On the sexual abuse of children by Catholic clergy, a scandal that has rocked the church in the United States, the Pope said the abuse has left "very deep wounds" on victims. In response, the church has done more than other institutions to be open and transparent about sexual abuse by its employees, Francis said. “But the Church is the only one to be attacked." A United Nations panel criticized Catholic leaders last month in a hard-hitting report on clergy sexual abuse. The report said the Vatican "has not acknowledged the extent of the crimes committed, has not taken the necessary measures to address cases of child sexual abuse and to protect children, and has adopted policies and practices which have led to the continuation of the abuse by and the impunity of the perpetrators.” The Vatican said it would study the U.N. report. Kick out those who sexually abuse children, U.N. panel tells Vatican On Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI, who has surprised church-watchers with public appearances after saying he would live a cloistered life in retirement, Francis said he considers his predecessor a "wise grandfather." "The Pope Emeritus is not a statue in a museum," Pope Francis said. Rather, the two men have decided that Benedict should participate in the church's public life rather than live a shuttered life. "I thought about grandparents who with their wisdom, their advice, strengthen families and don't deserve to end up in an old folks home," Francis said. Finally, he may sometimes wear a cape, but don't call Pope Francis a Superman, the popular pontiff said. "To paint the Pope as a sort of Superman, a kind of star, seems offensive to me," Francis told Corriere della Sera. "The Pope is a man who laughs, cries, sleeps soundly and has friends like everyone else. A normal person." Earlier this year, graffiti depicting a muscle-bound and flying Francis appeared on walls near Vatican City, but the Pope said Wednesday that he doesn't like the "mythology" surrounding his papacy, which marks its first anniversary on March 13. For instance, Francis debunked the idea that he sneaks out of the Vatican at night to feed the homeless. "It never occurred to me," he said. (CNN's Delia Gallagher assisted in translating Pope Francis' remarks from the Italian.)
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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My spirit guide became nine different possible "gods" before I finally had to say, you know what he's not there. Part of me still wants to go looking for him.
Derado,
Keep searching, dont give up, no surrender. Someday you may find the same God i believe in. That we all have the same God. Morality.
I consider being a Christian to be immoral because it is not the least bit moral to let someone else take your punishment.
Joey,
You may have misunderstood the sacrifice Jesus made.
Jesus sacrifice shows the love God has for us. Imagine your mom trying to work nigth shift just to provide for your future. Your moms sacrifice is the same as what Jesus did.
After Jesus' death and ressurection there was a tremendous increase in the belief of Gods teachings. A lot more humans got saved because God loves us.
Let me put it in another way,
You have 10 siblings and say you are the in the middle. Your dad love you so much he ask his oldest son or daugther to work at an early age to provide for your big family. Seeing this you in turn try to do the same thing and sacrifice for the future of your younger sibling ..... And teach to kids and your kids kids to do the same. For your future. Because your dad love each and everyone of you and have a bright future.
Austin, I want door #3. I don't want eternity with any gods and I don't want to burn in hell. What is behind door number 3?
Go with God . really that is the only door that is reasonable. Hell is not where God sends anyone . Hell is for the fallen angels. Period.
But this makes me unhappy Austin. I want to be free to choose.
you have a choice with every law wether you keep it or break it.
this choice is one that is impossible to be neutral on. there is no default.
you want to be free to sin or what . free to do what?
you are free to choose.
What is there to choose besides your god? That is one thing. You can't choose from one thing! You won't answer my question, that tells me I am right about you. Why do you hate me?
Donald. sorry guy. the question....what is behind door number 3?
A really don't believe there is a door number three as.suming one an two are real. II would say" IF one and to happen to not be real" but i allready have proof of God.
and sometimes I wish i didn't. I get discouraged sometimes.
That's cool Austin, you discourage me too.
Donald.
I think that the word of God offends our flesh and i understand that. I apologize and i have not tried to discourage you or insult you. have a good one.
Just breakin' your balls Austin...
Austin,
Yep. You have NO PROOF either.
Austin
"Hell is not where God sends anyone"
Nonsense. No one has EVER sent themselves to Hell. ONLY GOD can send them there. Why not? He invented Hell and the devil himself.
you worship God or god.
again, you have hear that the blood of Christ is eternal life. and there is no other way.
Austin,
I am an agnostic. It there ever comes PROOF that a god exists, I'm perfectly winning to support them/him.
observer now. Very well. I can understand someone wants proof.
1 cor 12
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit,
now that is the word of God. that is the promise of a gift to one who seeks.
The gift is real and becomes proof and a voice within. So if you want evidence, you can expect it based upon the promise of the Word of God Almighty.
I would like an X-ray, a tissue sample, a blood sample and a photograph of an angel. As I do not have this it would make me free to choose.
Donald,
God is not going to force you into Heaven. Everyone has a choice of their eternal home. You can choose God or you can choose absence from God. You also have to be held accountable for any wrongdoing you committed. Austin is telling you a lot of things that are very personal to him and you seem to be repaying him with attacks. I think you should really listen to what Austin is saying with an open heart. He has laid far more on the table here that any of the other posters have.
Really? That argument? Does it really make sense to you that a serial killer baby rapist can eat a chicken dinner before being put to death but as long as he was saved in prison he goes to heaven, but if I am a saint of a person but just happened to be born in India, I will fry for an eternity. It is stupid, it is childish, it is immoral. People like you are douche bags. Oh boo hoo delusional Austin forgot to take his meds again. Whatever.
I think you are looking at sin from a very worldly position. You are assuming that our values are the same as God's. Murder may be very bad to us on Earth, while lying might seem inconsequential, but to a perfect being like God, all sin is an abomination.
All people have sinned, and all people need to be cleansed in order to fit into a perfect place like Heaven. Imagine: if Heaven is Perfect, then how can imperfect people enter? Obviously, unless they are cleansed in some supernatural way, they can't. So God gave us a way into Heaven. Through Jesus.
You should really accept Him as your Lord and Savior. You keep saying God does not give you a choice, but the choice is definitely there. The best choice is Jesus.
guidedans
"You are assuming that our values are the same as God's."
No, I am assuming there is no god.
Brothe,. God bless you and thank you for your encouragement.
There are no doors. Everybody is welcome as long as you believe in the teachings of God.
There are many choices. You just have to be brave enough to choose a different key.
You do not to choose what others has choosen. To determine for yourself who that God is.
My main qualification of a God if there is one is morality. Rigtheousness. Not power, like some people may believe. Some like thor or hercules or the guy that shoots ligthing from his butt. 🙂
akira. when i was in the hospital while my buddy was dying, a drag demon came to me in my dreams and mocked christ and said "too bad He doesnt' forgive everything. The demon, looked like my friend and the demon was gay. I had just had a vision about an eagle picking up a pair of running shoes. I found the verse it was pointing me to.
31 but those who hope in the Lord
will renew their strength.
They will soar on wings like eagles;
they will run and not grow weary,
they will walk and not be faint.
that was confirmed at 7 am when his dad arrived on the third floor. I told him and he said, "i was just studying that verse because Dan's sister in law just sent it out on a bulk email. that's the synchronicity of the spirit. and i received the vision that was confirmed.
back to the drag demon. i started that day thinking that maybe that demon was tormenting dan about some secret he had. I knew dan for 20 years hes my best friend and he never mentioned anything about gay struggles.
That night, our best friend Craig showed up from chicago (the night after the night i had the vision) . and craig told me that in seventh grade a ninth grader got dan to give him a h.and jo.b, and that after that Dan and craig messed around with each other, and that Dan in tenth grade tried to get on andy in a thr.eesome when he was in a room with a chick.
ok. so both visions that night were true revelations. I had a revelation about the bible verse, and then i truly saw a demon that had a foothold in Dan's mind. The demon was ho.mo se,xual and revealed truth to me that I never knew about. that was confirmed the next day.
But thats how things work. If God does something good in your life the devil will come in and try to compete with what God does.
So you long suspected this man was gay, and as you find it abhorrent, you rationalized it in a dream you could understand.
I am unsure why you are addressing me in this post.
I am quite sure that you would never hate someone for something that happened at the very vulnerable age of 12, but I have to ask you: what does this have to do with anything?
never suspected it. it was revealed to me. I hung out with him and went on ski trips to colorado, he was on the hight school baseball team with me. we were best friends since 7th grade and i never knew these secrets and never suspected he was gay, and i dont think he was gay.
he had girlfriends. He was in love with a woman. he had girlfriends. and then he disappeared into his vodka and misery.
never suspected it .
supposed to be a reply to " must have hit close to home"
What would it mean if demons did not exist?
i wish they were not real.
Why would you think that they are?
derado, the word of God says that they are. there is evil. so both of these support the word.
furthermore, my insight into the word of God has also been delivered as truth supernaturally. How that happens could be from the Holy Spirit, angels who are ministering spirits, or information can be supernaturally evil.
3Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
my spiritual gift has illuminated the idea of demonic activity in supernatural fashion. and it would take some explaining for me to inform you. I have to take off though and i can go over these personal experiences.
Austin,
The "word" you apparently got from God was to CHOOSE negative verses about gays. Fortunately, there are other Christians who got the word to CHOOSE the MORE IMPORTANT Golden Rule. Why would God give you the WRONG word?
There must be some tiny remnant of humanity left in people like “Austin” buried deep within. How does one stir common sense.
Solution: Casual Polite Alternate Conversation (CPAC)
It is easy to do. Continue to be nice and friendly to your religious friends, families and acquaintances. Only going forward, call them out on anything they say that is ridiculous.
I have demonstrated this technique on my mother-in-law and we are no longer on speaking terms.
donald I have the gift of prophecy, i have had over 30 spiritual revelations come true. I have proof of God. this is not what saves someone, as we see in Aaron.
Aaron saw the presence of God and he went down the mountain and made a golden calf. Moses was not even allowed into the promised land.
John the Baptist sent his friends, after he baptized the Lord and saw many miracles , sent his friends to ask " should we expect another messiah" because John was in prison and about to get his head cut off.
Peter denied christ 3 times.
Faith is a gift and it takes a sincere understanding of ones spiritual depravity.
We are born spiritually dead. We should ask for the baptism of the Holy Spirit to have our eyes opened to the light of God.
What is the ternal fate of serial liars ?
I would think that they are doomed.
I have not lied about my experiences. I have about six clip boards full of paper pads and full of dreams. and a jail inmate envelope with the ones from jail.
I wrote down three last night.
I have read all this foolishness before. You are a liar or very, very ill.
At one point in my life (and I'm not proud of this) I told a complete stranger that she was the girlfriend of my invisible friend from a former life time. I was absolutely convinced this was the case. I could not get my head around it that an "aura" was not able to be found on an MRI. But it wasn't there. It just wasn't. That was really hard to come to terms with.
Donald and Midwest, you guys have never had a religion it sounds like. I have. When you are in one you are convinced beyond anything that what you are saying is true. It doesn't sound weird until you look back on it.
I would agree save for one thing – Austin has lied repeatedly regarding things other than belief. He has been called on it repeatedly (by multiple posters besides me) and he just laughs it off. My question remains.
i have not lied to you . over the last 3 weeks i have gone down town and handed out over 400 invitations to our church.
and our church has had 720 salvations last year, and the year before about 670. Lots of adults, lots of kids. and lots of baptizing.
Austin also claims he can see the future.
If so:
He could probably prove the existence of God
He could save BILLIONS of souls
He could prove that atheists were wrong
He could win ONE MILLION dollars for himself or to give to church or charity
He could laugh at ALL the people who think he is delusional
He refuses. Enough said.
Austin, you have been caught repeatedly lying on these pages. Try again.
just because haven't done the james randii foundation does not mean that i have lied.
and again i have not lied. and last week i supplied my phone number to anyone who wants to call me and talk.
Austin
"just because haven't done the james randii foundation does not mean that i have lied."
True. It's probably more likely is that you have ZERO CONFIDENCE that you could actually prove anything.
If you don't mind my saying so I know many in real life who firmly believe in God. The conversation goes more smoothly if you recognize that for them to give up the idea is for them to face their own death. Not everybody's mind can or will accept that at the same time and at the same pace. I know it is frustrating.
Fuck 'em. It is time for some fuckin' common sense.
A very effective atheist said to me once, "There is no "us" and there is no "them" and I listened to what he had to say, and it made sense.
I wish that were true but I don't believe it is.
I lost two good friends due to my non belief so I can sympathize with that. Not everyone is as adamant about it.
Also asking "why" questions work pretty well. They worked for me and I used to believe a lot of strange things. That was a couple of years ago and I'm still letting things go one by one.
Donald,
Why wouldnt you want to talk to your mother in law? Not a good way to resolve conflicts.
A wise man once said: i defeat my enemies by making them my friends.
Abe lincoln
My mother in law is dead. True story.
Hope you did not kill her:)
Boston,
Some believers take the law into their hands, just like the vigilantes we have. It is wrong. Now, do you have an inclination in believing to the God I believe in 🙂
Peace,
I believe you have every right to believe in your God. I am an atheist. I believe there is no God. I can't prove there is no God, especially a God like the Deists believe in. I am as certain the Jesus is not God as I am certain that we live in a real physical world rather than a Matrix like world, or a pure thought world.
I respect that boston. I hope we share the same aspiration for a perfcet world.
Peace
re posted
My best friend died of liver failure at 36. I got robbed 7 grand again noe its up to forty grand in bank theft of my wages with no justice. My other friends baby came almost 5 months early.
Where is God and how can or should we honor Him when things are so heavy and dull and sorry? Blind faith and this is what we get?
The only way i found spiritual life and Gods voice and solace or patience is through approaching the word with reverence and truly meditate and wait on God to lift me up with His faith.
I need my teacher. I have to tend and attend and seek.
And the reward is given. Why wont jesus come back now for me?
Because he is waiting for you and your family to seek Him.
just suggesting that we can seek God, and make an effort to draw near to him. He is there.
You know Austin you are a real asshole man. All the evil in this world, all the children the die by the minute, the suffering...and you can just be smug and say three little words and that is fine and dandy. You are a douche.
Donald the word of God is prophetic.
there are also spiritual gifts available .
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b] 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
In other words, these gifts are the Christians proof of God. answers to prayer are proof of God.
Jehovah Shammah
The Lord is There
“Donald the word of God is prophetic.”
No as people can’t tell the future and people are responsible for the words in the bible.
“there are also spiritual gifts available”
I am glad they are available, but what if I don’t want them? I choose freedom.
If "He is there" is true, then he is either not omnipotent or he is evil.
He gives you his glory in Christ, eternal life. Had he all ready came back, your chances would be cut short. The world is in chaos as a result of hearing and rejecting.
You are justified and by hearing and receiving you are saved.
That's simple and easy. One savior to choose from.
But I don’t want glory in Christ. Am I not free to choose? What kind of sadistic criminal would threaten his own children with an eternity of torture for ANY reason?
Donald. You are correct there is no God, but I believe that Austin posts what he posts with every good intention.
donald he promises you eternal life.
there is no injustice. you are granted either choice that you make.
Austin he offers you an eternity of torture. That's what he offers you.
Austin, Donald is going to come to terms with tragedy in his own way and it's different from your way but that is his choice to make.
Evidence to support the existence of any plains beyond this one are not there.
Interesting article I just read:
http://www.salon.com/2013/01/16/religion_may_not_survive_the_internet/
That was interesting Akira, thanks.
"It should be no surprise that so many fundamentalists are determined to take down the whole scientific endeavor. They see in science not only a critic of their outdated theories but a compet.itor for their very best product, a sense of transcendent exuberance. "
such a bright comment ! I'm so impressed.
Hits too close to home?
Interesting – thanks, Akira.
Christians want to be cared for. They believe in God because, bullshit or not, it gives them comfort. We all like feeling taken care of; Deity or Daddy?
Imagine if all people were Christian and one government led the entire world. The highest likelihood would be that Vatican City would be the capital. Catholics are the plurality and likely the majority of Christians worldwide. The Pope would be the leader.
Christians, would you want that?
Boston,
Read Revelations. Christians want a world ruled by Christ, not by a government of man.
Christians believe that there will indeed be one world government, but it will not be Christian, and it will not be good in any way. Your questions look like they are stemming from a misunderstanding of Christian doctrine. Christians want the whole world to have a relationship with Christ, our savior. We understand however, that that will never happen until his return.
You should really read up on the Bible with an open heart. It is a source of truth in a very deceptive world.
OK, so you don't want a Christian government. Thanks.
I would say we don't expect it but we look forward to it in christ and the reason we have patience is for the sake of those who's souls are being won today, whom we compete for.
Such as your blessed soul. All who read and hear. Prepare ye the way of the Lord.
Yes, Exactly what Austin said
Boston,
Pope is not a leader but a messenger. Nobody could lead the world because of their own vested interest. After all is said and done and all evil doers would be separated from the do gooders in order for the do gooders to survive.
It is implied that evil doers would kill do gooders.
I think the Pope would disagree. I think he would say he is a messenger and a leader.
Now, you could read his mind.
Pope could lead anytime he wants but if his message is not the teachings of God, why follow?
Peaceadvocate2014,
In dealing with gays, it appears that rather than CHOOSE negative verses, the Pope has CHOSEN the Golden Rule.
It's not surprising why so many Christians are upset with him.
observer. there is no way around love. What is there after that ? What is anyone's response expected to be by the words of Christ.
what is it to be saved? what happens when you come to Christ? Do you continue to choose to sin?
No . thats really why the issue of Gay marriage is way off. because Gay marriage is a form of disobedience. do you love them sill ? yes of course.
but what the pope is doing is saying, for those who don't consider the freedom from sin as a priority, they should remain outside of the church and simply accept a civil arrangement, instead of defiling the church by expecting to be married inside the church.
This issue on this blog, in my opinion, is about the gay marriage agenda seeing an opportunity to strong arm the church into defiling their stance because they are guilty of employing gay priests. the agenda sees the door and opportunity to throw the word hippocrite into the mix.
Austin,
I have asked you multiple times if you BELIEVE and SUPPORT all of the Bible's positions on marriage (FORCED marriages, etc.).
You have refused to answer. Don't expect people to accept any credibility you think you have.
Peace,
You are projecting again. I said, I think..., not the pope thinks.
You said: "Pope is not a leader but a messenger." That is directly speaking for someone else.
Austin
"there is no way around love"
So why are you trashing love for fellow human beings by gays?.
Your HYPOCRISY is amazing..
obsserver. you like the verse about love. I agree with that.
do you believe in the resurrection and if so what do you think about the rest of the bible?
Austin,
I'll answer your questions after you START answering mine. If nothing else, at least start reading a Bible so you'll have a CLUE what Jesus said about commandments.
Observe,
Negative, golden whats the difference. Either way you will have opposition. Because humans is confused on what is right or wrong. The message sent by the pope are compassion, tolerance which i think is a good message. More power. Message of God.
bostontola
Can't agree, some batsh!t crazies like the southern Baptists would probably take over. Lets call them Bazi's that would have groups of thugs to discipline everyone into compliance and the sheep would be silent and fall in line. Happened before, perhaps. Religion bows down before tyranny if it is not their own.
They might take a shot at it, but the RCC has too much money and power, the Bazis (nice term) would get crushed.
there are 840,000,000 protestants in the world. If they chose to engage Catholics with the word of God, catholics would convert.
The systematic theology of protestant reformed churches, is fundamentally more sound than catholic doctrine.
bostontola
I have wondered why the trait of dominance is not often equated to religion, All mammals have it in one form or another, faster, stronger, smarter and the reward is to be the leader or breeder in some cases. The reason there are 40,000 cults of the same Christian religion is they all feel superior to the others and think they can get a different truth out of the BS.
Austin
You moron, your 840,000 protestants are splintered into thousands of different cults that can't agree with each other. Get a grip man, the hustlers for a dollar are what you think you support.
840,000,000, mea culpa.
Austin,
Isn't it odd that Carholics sat the same exact thing?
The message is the same. It the messenger that varies.
And, like it or not, Catholics say the same thing about Protestant theology and hold the same opinion as you: that their way is the correct way.
Divisive.
Ausphor-
I wish you luck in trying to make Austin see this; the Woozle effect is in full play here.
1,200,000,000 Catholics, 3/2 advantage. Much greater advantage in money, global presence, etc.
Austin. If you think every denomination of Protestantism agrees with each other, you couldn't be more wrong.
As I questioned below.....why did Jesus AFTER he resurrected not tell the apostles to group together and start forming a nation?
Paul went all over the place, and it may have all been the roman empire and made possible through his roman citizenship, but he still didn't bear a sword.
This implies that the free will decision to hear the gospel and agree with God is the act that glorifies God and in return we share His glory as sons of God. we become eternally alive like God and like God intended in the beginning. This is the kingdom that has lasting value.
10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Nope and nope.
Boston,
Religious denomination established by humans are both divisive and destructive. There is one God and it is up to is to determine who that God is.
Freedom, democracy is all good in an imperfect world. In a perfect world freedom and democracy is not nessesary necause everybody would know and do what is right, what is moral, what is God.
I've never met anyone that thinks we live in a perfect world.
Boston,
Dont be deceptive. I did not say we live in a perfect world. I said freedom and democracy is needed in an imperfect world. What we have. My aspiration and i hope ots yours too is to live in a perfect world. That is God.
Peaceadvocate2014,
Why would a world supporting slavery and discriminations against women, gays, and the handicapped be considered "perfect"?
No deception, you must be projecting. I don't think a perfect world exists, even in principle.
Observe,
Did i post incorrectly. I said we are not living in a perfect world. I aspire for a perfect world. All those ills you mentioned would not be in a perfect world. Gods.
Peaceadvocate2014,
Have you read a Bible? Seriously?
All of those "ills" are supported by God in the Bible. If you haven't read one, please do.
Boston,
But we aspire for a perfect world. Thats why we try to do thing morally, right? Help the less fortunate, dont lie, dont cheat, dont kill, all those good stuff. Unless that is not important to you.
I am a strong supporter of law and order. I don't agree with all laws, but will follow them and work to change the ones I don't like a lot. That is far from a perfect world. People can't agree on what a perfect world is, therefore it doesn't exist.
Observe,
I have read and understood parts of the bible. I know the message would be the same. All the ills you mentioned im the bible wAs done by humans, not God. You may be refering to the Old testament where the focus is Gods judgement. And early believers think that they should impose God judgement which is wrong thats why Jesus was sent in the New testament to fulfill Gods message. The New testament focuses on what humans should do by the example Jesus showed. Example, when an adulterer was being tried in a village, she went to Jesus. The villagers asked that they stone her to death coz it was Gods judgement. True. But Jesus said cast the first stone if you have not sin yourself. Meaning we humans being imperfect should not judge. The revelation is the final act, judgement day , were God judge.
Peaceadvocate2014,
It was GOD who gave all the rules for slavery, including how fathers could SELL their daughters. Don't try to pass the buck.
"Jesus said cast the first stone if you have not sin yourself. Meaning we humans being imperfect should not judge."
I couldn't agree more. There sure are a lot of Christian judges on this blog. I get told many times per day I'm going to hell, like the commenter can levy sentence.
Observe,
Do you have proof that this is Gods teachings? Did God say it? Wrote it?
its human sins.
Peaceadvocate2014,
Do I have PROOF that God said it? Absolutely not, just like no one has proof that God even exists. It's what the Bible says and you can decide if that is an UNRELIABLE source.
(Ex. 21:7-8) “If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do” [God]
Peace,
Am I correct in concluding that you view the bibles as compositions of men and therefore imperfect?
Observe,
Written by Ex, not God. Next question pls 🙂
Boston,
I cringe when i hear it. We may all go to hell who knows. Let God be the judge. I acknowledge there are non believers that are do gooders which may be better than a believer. Message of God.
Peaceadvocate2014
Direct quote from God according to his book written with his divine inspiration. It doesn't get any more reliable than that (and that's not good).
The ONLY thing written by God OR JESUS was the first Ten Commandments destroyed by Moses during a hissy fit.
Try again.
Peace,
Please think about this notion of a "perfect world" more carefully. Do we truly want to exist in a perfect world? Do we truly want perfection?
A perfect world would necessarily, by definition, lack any sort of conflict. There would be no difficulties, no obstacles, no challenges, no risks. Everything would be safe, perfectly beautiful, perfectly symetrical, perfectly regulated. Freedom would not be possible, because imperfections would not be allowed. Can such a world be called perfect? On one level, perhaps. It would not be a world I would be happy in. No difficulties, no obstacles, no challenges, no risks–yet these are what provide the zest in life. They are what make our current world interesting, exciting, fulfilling, and fun.
Think of someone you have known in your past–someone who seemed perfect in every way. I'll describe a guy called "Pat" I knew in high school. The perfect athlete, handsome, did perfect academically, a super achiever. But he was not, and could never be my friend. Not someone I could relate to. In the end, not really a very interesting guy either.
I prefer ambiguity, obstacles, and adventure. "Excellent" is good enough for me–and is indeed, far better than perfect, because "excellent" is achievable through hard work and perseverance, whereas "perfect" will remain unobtainable, and therefore the enemy of the good and excellent. You can have your perfect world.
Dandin,
How can you say a perfect world would not be good for humanity if we have not experienced it? Fear of the unknown. Like the fear in God.
Tough on that good looking guy. Like the saying do not judge a book by its cover 🙂
We aspire for perfection as evident in our daily lives. Perfect morals.
Peaceadvocate2014
There seems to be more IMMORALITY than MORALITY in the Bible. It's no source for "Perfect morals".
Absolutely boston, text written by humans are imperfect. Thats why we read, study and analyze what is the true meaning of the teachings of God. And its easy. Morality.
Peaceadvocate2014,
Does God want his people to CHOOSE negative verses about gays or to CHOOSE the Golden Rule?
Since you apparently can read his mind, I'd guess you'd know.
I cant read minds. But i could see, hear, smell, feel whats going on in our daily lives. The need for morality. Freedom is good in moderation. I still listen to my parents advise.
Peaceadvocate2014,
The "declining morals of today" is a theme that is THOUSANDS of years old.
Compare our morals today to the slavery and discriminatory days preached in the Bible and you can see how far we've come. Gay rights have changed so fast that we can see how far we've come and how soon this issue will fade like slavery.
Observe,
And we try not to go back in those caveman mentality days. Agree?
Presuming there is a god and it has teachings – if all you have is imperfect text how would you know "true meaning"? No amount of study or analysis can determine that; again it comes back to interpretation.
Peaceadvocate2014
Agree. We only have to look 100 years ago to see how far we have ADVANCED. Women can vote. We don't have any existing former slaves. Gay rights is getting near a successful conclusion. The trend is that things are continuing to improve.
Santa,
Precisely santa, a text was written we interpret it ourselves. There would be alot but theres only one answer and that is what we try ti find out. Morality.
Like observe said, we have achieve so much back in the days because of morality in our laws. Not perfect but we continue to develop it. Development of moral applications. We humans just have evil tendencies. Governing temdecies would be in the hands of humans like you, observe, boston, etc and me.
Observe,
We just try not to abuse our freedoms, rights for our own self interest. Do it for the well being of humanity.
What is moral? The whole debate in our ever changing evolution.
God is morality.
I say again i acknowledge there are non believers who are do gooders that are better than believers that are evil doers.
God would be the judge.
Peaceadvocate2014
"God is morality."
Not to me. I believe that support for slavery, discrimination against women, discrimination against gays, discrimination against the handicapped, beating children with rods, forcing marriage on two people who might actually hate each other, etc. is IMMORAL.
Observe,
I thought we already went through this, these are misinterpretIon and sins of humans, not Gods teachings.
I rest my case.
Peaceadvocate2014
"I rest my case." This is fascinating. You appear to have built a case that nothing in the Bible can be trusted and that you SOMEHOW have determined (1) that God actually exists and (2) what God actually wanted. With nothing to work on (without a book), you appear to be advocating wishful thinking. I think that most intelligent people are looking for more than that.
Observe,
You have your opinion, i have mine. Readers would have theirs. Lets leave it at that.
Read through the thread, i answered your redundant arguements in the past.
We read, study and analyze what is true. Just like science. Just like the bible. And we formulate our own conclusions. Our conclusion would show our character.
Peaceadvocate2014,
You actually seem like more of an agnostic than you may realize.
Observe,
Im this, im that....labels. Very divisive and destructive. We may have difference or inequalities but I am just like you. A human being.
This image fills me with empathy and heartbreak and it's moving at the same time. Sadness, in a cat.
http://www.bing.com/images/results.aspx?q=sad+cat&form=MSNH14&refig=a817684b2b2746b0b4707e313a210e80&pq=sad+cat&sc=8-7&sp=-1&qs=n&sk=#view=detail&id=DBADE2F7D69F87CBB5B7CB7C844B1862D8CC66A2&selectedIndex=3
Other species are often more amiable than our own
http://www.speakdolphin.com/home.cfm
I am amazed that more than 1 posters on this blog have expressed a desire to live in a Christian theocracy/monarchy. With over 40,000 denominations of Christianity, your chances of being governed by one you agree with are miniscule. The history on this is not pleasant. The recurring theme is one denomination persecuting another.
If all humans were Christians, there would be no reduction in violence between denominations. The best bet for any Christian is to live in a secular Consti.tutional democracy, don't you think?
Internet atheists want the same. They want all humans to be atheists and it's not possible. Those same internet atheists think much like some Christians do, creating billboards to recruit people to join them. Sad thing is, all the "logic" and "reason" they boast so much about having does not exist. It's a dangerous delusion.
"Internet atheists want the same. They want all humans to be atheists and it's not possible."
No, I am an atheist and don't want that.
"Those same internet atheists think much like some Christians do, creating billboards to recruit people to join them."
Sure, some do.
Sad thing is, all the "logic" and "reason" they boast so much about having does not exist. It's a dangerous delusion.
False. Logic and reason are things defined by man, they exist. Man may not always exhibit them, but they exist. In fact, they have resulted in the most successful expansion of knowledge in the history of mankind in the last 500 years.
LOLOL You're like a black hole for logic.
Soooooo, you're saying atheists are as dumb as Christians?
I do not think a theocracy is a good idea, regardless of the denomination of the religion.
I an so glad I live in the USA.
Hey Akira, me too.
Some have worked better than others in history.
Look at the advances in math made in the middle east while europe was in the dark ages.
Although, that could have something to do with Islam not having one central leader.
At their peak, they were a tolerant society, Jews held government positions and were respected. The same was true of the productive periods of the Persian empire.
I am certainly not denying that, Alias; that is true. I don't think the theocracies of today can even be comparable.
Jesus has patience for the unsaved to be saved.
And I am still grateful to live in the USA, where the chances for a theocracy, barring a revolution of some sort that would be completely against the teachings of Christ, remain at virtually zero.
Austin,
Which would you prefer; 1. live in the US with it's current set of laws and governance, or 2. live in a Christian theocracy/monarchy?
christian theocracy!
No. No theocracy of any sort in the US. Period.
Boston,
If one is a true Christian, then you want everyone else in the world to be Christian. This does not mean that they want the world to be a theocracy because Bible-believing Christians will understand that governments will all fail until Jesus returns.
You should understand why Christians want everyone to be Christian. Here's why:
If you are a Christian, you believe that non-Christians are fated for eternal torment.
You also are taught to love your neighbor (basically, everyone in the world).
Furthermore, you do not want to see someone you love go through pain and torment,
Therefore, you work to convert as many people as the Holy Spirit allows prior to them meeting their fate.
Even if you don't agree with Christianity, you should understand the motives of Christians. It is not that they want to force people into a relationship with Christ, but they know that a relationship with Christ is the only way to avoid a terrible fate. Thus, we spend a lot of our time trying to bring people into a their own relationship with Jesus.
If that is, indeed, their ultimate aim, then I am left with this question ( which I have asked before ). Given the behavior of contemporary Christians, why would anyone want what you are "selling" ? Why would anyone want to be like you ?
guidedans,
I didn't say all Christians want a Christian monarchy, just that some commentators on this blog have stated that. Almost every Christian I know would never choose a theocracy over the US system. That's why I am amazed that some actually would.
bostontola. is the United Kingdom a theocracy?
No, it is a Consti.tutional monarchy with a state religion.
Why can't Christians come up with one story about creation?
Why do some Christian scientists lie to satisfy and sell "expertise" to young-earth believers, while, at the same time, selling their real work with findings that are in line with their education and the credentials that made them known?
Read about Andrew Snelling and his conflicted information about dating methods (depending on who is buying his information...).
there are 41,000 sects of the Christian cult. None of them can agree on any of it!
There are thousands of different beliefs atheists believe. Each and everyone claims to be right!
Bad dumb doggy!
There are thousands of gods we don't believe in, but I don't think that qualifies as different beliefs.
Each atheist creates their own beliefs and dogma that follows.
Right.
Just like all people who don't collect stamps have their own way of sorting them.
You know the answer.
They can't deny the science so they have to 'reinterpret' the bible.
Just like they did with that whole stationary earth/solar system discovery thing.
Denial is a powerful thing and death is it's reason.
Good point.
Christians are really good at denial.
Not just Christians, did I mention an old pack of tarot cards in my attic?
In your Sam Harris video he says he believes looking for more information is like beating a dead horse. I've never seen a case that more information was a bad thing. Given the nature of the subject I can see where he is coming from, but information can only help.
Also he advocates mindfulness meditation, which from my mind is only a distraction from the inevitable another (perhaps less toxic) form of denial, but denial none the less.
I know this is slightly off track from this current post
If we are all born atheists, that means atheism is the source of all the problems in this world like murder and war. Yep. Atheism is responsible folks!😜😀😜😀😜😀😜
By that logic atheism is the source of all the positive things. Not a very good argument you have there bozo.
If we are all born with beating hearts, that means beating hearts are the source of all the problems in this world like murder and war. Yep. Beating hearts is responsible folks.
I reverse the childish logic of atheists and expose the stupidity f atheism.
So you know your OP is jibberish and just posted it as a vehicle to expose weak atheist logic?
Never said anything about the positive things troll. Better get your eyes checked.
simple logic escapes you bozo?
The reply button does.
asinine.
Behave doggy.
there once was a finisher1
who raved about a god and his son
with his arguments blurred
and his logic absurd
verbal diarrhea from his chin it did run
Asinine.
No, if it were asinine the last line would have been:
mental diarrhea from his butt it did run
Well done Dd!
“Either God can do nothing to stop catastrophes like this, or he doesn’t care to, or he doesn’t exist. God is either impotent, evil, or imaginary. Take your pick, and choose wisely.”
In fact, "atheism" is a term that should not even exist. No one ever needs to identify himself as a "non-astrologer" or a "non-alchemist." We do not have words for people who doubt that Elvis is still alive or that aliens have traversed the galaxy only to molest ranchers and their cattle. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i3mX0YRrjM
There is a very simple solution, though you might not like it.
If people are never conceived they will never be born, and if they are never born they will never die. All human tragedy will cease to exist, just as soon as we agree to cease to exist.
The plants will thank us, and the animals will appreciate us not being there to eat them.
Interesting. Check out http://www.shutuprw.com
Reblogged this on Home Grown News Media.
Whaaat!!! More of the pope on CNN = Catholic News Network 😀 😀 😉 Well this is like a constant bombardment of Evidence on top of evidence on top of more evidence that demonstrate that Idolatry like atheism is indeed Total stupidity. That's why atheists always try to make believe that the RCC is "THE" church and they almost always end-up flocking like a herd to the RCC. Well... what can I say that I haven't said before. Atheism is Total stupidity forevermore. 😉
Please refer me to 1 atheist's comment on this blog that suggests the RCC is "THE" church, never mind the "always" characterization.
It will probably be easier to find number 10,000 but you need dyslexicdog as a guide to go there. Then again yours is one more piece of Evidence that Atheism is Total stupidity. 😉
In other words, you can't.
Really, really you're all so impressed with yourself don't you?
did you learn how to use the smiley face in your posts? well done little one. you must be proud.
😉 🙂 😉 Well actually yes, to do them I used the small finger of my right hand!! 😉 😉 You know that one that can touch the tip of the thumb. Apes and their descendants can't do that with theirs so I understand your frustration. 😉 🙂
"Pope Francis reaffirmed the Catholic Church's opposition to gay marriage on Wednesday, but suggested in a newspaper interview that it could support some types of civil unions."
Some view this as the pope liberalizing the Church stance on gay marriage. This pope's position scares me, he thinks he has a role in our civil laws. No pope, you don't. You can decide who gets married in the RCC, your opinion carries no weight anywhere else.
It's nice that the pope is trying to engage the non-Catholic communities with more tolerant talk, but this reveals an arrogance that still lingers.
I thought it was so obvious that the 'unions' the pope was talking about are not the same as marriage that we didn't need to say it. Rather stupid of me in hindsight.
Sorry Alias, I didn't get your point.
The roman empire made it possible for paul to spread the gospel.
The u.s. is kindof similar. People have freedom to do that.
If christ does come back in the next 100 years maybe christians will over take the country through number.
if that was possible then why did jesus not tell his apostles to form a garrison? Seriously. Why not dominate with a christian kingdom?
Austin, you want a Christian theocracy?
Austin is starting a local chapter of the Christian Taliban.
Austin: "if that was possible then why did jesus not tell his apostles to form a garrison?"
Are you sure he wasn't talking to the father? I think he was tired of repeating himself to a bunch of nuts and was hurrying God along to create Garrison Keillor who would have fit in there much better than most of them...
I ment if he does not come back.
No. Say he put the romans ear on cause he had to die..
.thats true. But why not after the resurrection start an earthly kingdom ?
He said it was spiritual. So this leaves us pondering spiritual birth in an "anti" kingdom.
Hard to grasp how that is His will. This is a sick world.
Austin,
Do you wish the world lived in a Christian kingdom?
My best friend died of liver failure at 36. I got robbed 7 grand again noe its up to forty grand in bank theft of my wages with no justice. My other friends baby came almost 5 months early.
Where is God and how can or should we honor Him when things are so heavy and dull and sorry? Blind faith and this is what we get?
The only way i found spiritual life and Gods voice and solace or patience is through approaching the word with reverence and truly meditate and wait on God to lift me up with His faith.
I need my teacher. I have to tend and attend and seek.
And the reward is given. Why wont jesus come back now for me?
Because he is waiting for you and your family to seek Him.
Much of the discussion over the last 6 pages has been about gay marriage.
The pope was not tallking about poeple who wanted to live as a married couple.
That is not my point. My point is 1. The pope should stay out of individual country's civil laws (e.g. civil unions), and 2. his getting involved reveals a latent arrogance on his part.
You said, "some view this as the pope liberalizing the Church stance on gay marriage."
I was pointing out that the types of union the pope was talking about are not gay marriage.
And I said some people view it that way. Gop read various articles on this and you will find many that interpret this as a liberalization of the RCC position. The point of my comment was as stated above.
Boston,
Why do you think RCC should support same se.x marriage? Popes position on civil marriage is entirely his opinion necause he was asked. I also do support civil marriage but do not think he is implying to impose Gods teaching in human laws. Gods teachning is not to judge.
"Why do you think RCC should support same se.x marriage?"
I don't.