March 5th, 2014
10:04 AM ET
Pope Francis: Church could support civil unions
By Daniel Burke, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor
(CNN) - Pope Francis reaffirmed the Catholic Church's opposition to gay marriage on Wednesday, but suggested in a newspaper interview that it could support some types of civil unions.
The Pope reiterated the church's longstanding teaching that "marriage is between a man and a woman." However, he said, "We have to look at different cases and evaluate them in their variety."
States, for instance, justify civil unions as a way to provide economic security to cohabitating couples, the Pope said in a wide-ranging interview published Wednesday in Corriere della Sera, an Italian daily. State-sanctioned unions are thus driven by the need to ensure rights like access to health care, Francis added.
A number of Catholic bishops have supported civil unions for same-sex couples as an alternative to marriage, including Pope Francis when he was Archbishop of Buenos Aires in 2010, according to reports in National Catholic Reporter and The New York Times.
Behind closed doors, pope supported civil unions in Argentina, activist says
But Wednesday's comments are "the first time a Pope has indicated even tentative acceptance of civil unions," according to Catholic News Service.
Later on Wednesday, a Vatican spokesman sought to clarify the Pope's remarks.
"The Pope did not choose to enter into debates about the delicate matter of gay civil unions," said the Rev. Thomas Rosica, a consultant to the Vatican press office.
"In his response to the interviewer, he emphasized the natural characteristic of marriage between one man and one woman, and on the other hand, he also spoke about the obligation of the state to fulfill its responsibilities towards its citizens."
"We should not try to read more into the Pope’s words than what has been stated in very general terms," Rosica added.
Pope Francis, who marks his first year in office on March 13, has sought to set a more tolerant tone for his 1 billion-member church and suggested that a broad range of topics are at least open for discussion.
In January, the Pope recalled a little girl in Buenos Aires who told her teacher that she was sad because "my mother's girlfriend doesn't like me."
"The situation in which we live now provides us with new challenges which sometimes are difficult for us to understand," the Pope told leaders of religious orders, adding that the church "must be careful not to administer a vaccine against faith to them."
The Vatican later denied that those comments signaled an opening toward same-sex unions.
Last June, Francis famously refused to judge gay priests in comments that ricocheted around the world. He has also said that the church should not "interfere" in the spiritual lives of gays and lesbians.
Pope Francis' greatest hits of 2013
Support of same-sex unions of any type is fiercely contested by many Catholic church leaders.
In Wednesday's interview, Francis also addressed several other controversial issues, including the Catholic Church's ban on contraception, the role of women and the devastating clergy sexual abuse scandal.
On contraception, the Pope praised Pope Paul VI for having the "courage" to "go against the majority" when restating the ban in 1968. But, Francis said, the church must also be "merciful" and "attentive to concrete situations."
Contraception and church's ban on divorced Catholics receiving holy communion, will likely be addressed at major meetings of Catholic bishops in Rome in 2014 and 2015.
“We must give a response. But to do so, we must reflect much in depth,” the Pope said Wednesday.
On the role of women in the church, an issue of particular concern to Catholics in the United States, the Pope hinted that changes could be in the works.
"Women must be present in all of the places where decisions are taken," Francis said in the newspaper interview, but the church must consider more than "functional" roles for women. To that end, Catholic leaders are engaged in "deep reflection" on women's role in the church, he said.
On the sexual abuse of children by Catholic clergy, a scandal that has rocked the church in the United States, the Pope said the abuse has left "very deep wounds" on victims.
In response, the church has done more than other institutions to be open and transparent about sexual abuse by its employees, Francis said. “But the Church is the only one to be attacked."
A United Nations panel criticized Catholic leaders last month in a hard-hitting report on clergy sexual abuse.
The report said the Vatican "has not acknowledged the extent of the crimes committed, has not taken the necessary measures to address cases of child sexual abuse and to protect children, and has adopted policies and practices which have led to the continuation of the abuse by and the impunity of the perpetrators.”
The Vatican said it would study the U.N. report.
Kick out those who sexually abuse children, U.N. panel tells Vatican
On Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI, who has surprised church-watchers with public appearances after saying he would live a cloistered life in retirement, Francis said he considers his predecessor a "wise grandfather."
"The Pope Emeritus is not a statue in a museum," Pope Francis said. Rather, the two men have decided that Benedict should participate in the church's public life rather than live a shuttered life.
"I thought about grandparents who with their wisdom, their advice, strengthen families and don't deserve to end up in an old folks home," Francis said.
Finally, he may sometimes wear a cape, but don't call Pope Francis a Superman, the popular pontiff said.
"To paint the Pope as a sort of Superman, a kind of star, seems offensive to me," Francis told Corriere della Sera. "The Pope is a man who laughs, cries, sleeps soundly and has friends like everyone else. A normal person."
Earlier this year, graffiti depicting a muscle-bound and flying Francis appeared on walls near Vatican City, but the Pope said Wednesday that he doesn't like the "mythology" surrounding his papacy, which marks its first anniversary on March 13.
For instance, Francis debunked the idea that he sneaks out of the Vatican at night to feed the homeless.
"It never occurred to me," he said.
(CNN's Delia Gallagher assisted in translating Pope Francis' remarks from the Italian.)
About this blog
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.
Well, just one more example of someone who while being bright, intelligent and very knowledgeable in many fields, is still completely ignorant of the Scriptures and therefore rebellious against God. We see this all the time and everywhere, otherwise bright, intelligent people doing or saying something stupid that ruins their entire lives and that of others.
Therefore I must continue saying that Idolatry as well as it related systems atheism and evolutionism are all Total stupidity forevermore.
Explain again, oh ye troll of many names, how the total absence of worship of gods or their idols is related to idolatry.
You troll of many names also, explain why it would not be?
Your imaginary relationship with a god is sadomasochism without the s.ex.
Your's is the stuff of what charlatans are made!
Wait,....Buster is not what charlatans are made of, you don't even know him.
The word, "therefore" is typically used when you lay the foundation for a point, and then present the logical conclusion that follows. Here is an example:
You wrote a bunch of illogical gibberish and then presented an unrelated conclusion. Therefore, the use of the word "therefore" was not appropriate.
Therefore Idolatry as well as atheism and evolutionism are all Total stupidity!! 😉
Don't turn away from possible futures before you're certain you don't have anything to learn from them.
You're always free to change your mind and choose a different future, or a different past.
Choose a different past?
OOOH! YOU'VE INVENTED TIME TRAVEL!!
Alias, don’t be frightened by that which you do not understand. Embrace it or disregard it. No one is watching. But I say to you do this: think.
your delusoins do not frighten me, they amuse me.
BWT- if you are christian then you should believe someone IS watching.
Alias, I am not here to explore religion. Many inventions work nicely even though they are not built the same.
Are you advocating revisionist history?
Doc, don’t be fooled by history. Spend a moment imagining a different outcome to a troublesome event. There is nothing holding you back.
Rainer Helmut Braendlein,
Jesus was asked what the MOST IMPORTANT COMMANDMENT was. He mentioned several.
Which of the following did Jesus NOT consider as one of the MOST IMPORTANT commandments?
(a) The Golden Rule
(b) Prohibition against s3xual sins by heteros (adultery)
(c) Prohibition against s3xual sins by gays
Are you seriously trying to get this nutcase to walk into a discussion based on that question?
Rainer Helmut Braendlein argued below that gayness should be outlawed because he could work with a gay person some day and they might discuss religion. I don't think Rainer Helmut Braendlein can comprehend that the same logic would make all other religions illegal too. By all other religions, I mean to include all the different sects of christianity as well.
Rainer Helmut Braendlein is insane, not stupid.
This was a test for HONESTY and INTEGRITY to get an answer to a question that any serious Christian should be able to answer.
You have seen the result.
Helmut also said that gay people makes God less Holy.
If that isn't the biggest bunch of BS one has ever heard...but it does give him an out to show gay folks h his hatred and bigotry in the name of keeping Gody filled up with Holy.
You are led through your lifetime by the inner learning creature, the playful spiritual being that is your real self.
Yet, you can lose that "being" with a good trauma to the brain. Everything that we know medically points to our personalities, creativity and "spiritual" side being a function of the inner workings of our meat brains, even the imagination required to think otherwise.
The best way to avoid responsibility is to say, "I've got responsibilities."
Are you being cryptic, or just demonstrating my point about brain trauma?
Assume there is no reality, at least not one that you can rely on.
We face two issues today: The toleration of gay people and gay couples in the churches, and the legalisation of gay life-style in general civilian life.
What is the more severe issue?
Certainly, the toleration of gay people and gay couples in the churches.
Gayness is a kind of fornication. According to the biblical evidence somebody who persistently commits fornication has to leave the Church. Persistant fornication indicates that someone has abandoned his faith in Jesus Christ. The Church is the place where believers dwell in unity. The Church is not the place where evildoers are allowed to dwell.
1. Corinth. 5, 9-13
I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
This passage is clear eneough. There is no room for persistant evildoers in the church.
Therefore it is a calamity that very many churches of today tolerate gayness in their midst. At any rate that is against God's declared will, and will cause his wrath. Never in history churches turned apostate like today. That could be a sign that Jesus will return soon in order to judge.
Concerning the civil life:
There must be a place where people which don't belong to the Church can orderly live (rather exist) together. The best state would be that all people belong to the Church through faith, the well organized City of God. But, as many people hesitate to join the Church, there must be an emergency-system where they can live (rather exist) as long as God's patience is waiting (for their conversion to Jesus). Yet, seemingly, according to the biblical evidence, even if this emergency-system, the place of patience with the sinners, becomes too evil, it can cause God's wrath. When the sinners become too bold, God can put an end to their system because he is the ruler of the whole universe, not only the Lord of the Church.
Nevertheless, the more severe issue is the toleration of gayness within the churches.
The pope tolerates mandatory celibacy. That promotes child abuse by Catholic priests.. Therefore the pope is as guilty as the clergy of the churches tolerating gayness in their midst.
P.S.: Furthermore, it is irresponsible by the pope that he doesn't stridently criticize the legalisation of same-se-x partnership through the state, government or ordinary society. God is not merely concerned about the church but also about the whole mankind. The people (sinners) outside the church experience God's patience; yet that doesn't mean that he doesn't want them to convert. Of course, God wants that everybody becomes a Christian – right now, best case. I guess when the ordinary society outside the Church too much adopts extremly sinful habits, and regards her lifestyle as the normal one, God could be tempted to abolish her. God can endure the society of sinners as long as it remains an emergency-system, but when the emergency-system starts to regard itself as the most correct system, then God could become angry right now. Ordinary people should thank God for his patience but they should not assume that he would not care about their life.
I am absolutely sure that we will face great judgements through the divinity in the course of the next years.
The question is NOT whether/how we "tolerate" gay people ... it's why do we tolerate and give special treatment to the religious? In both cases, as long as it's kept to themselves and not forced upon others, let everyone live their own life free from the interference of others.
By "kept to themselves" I do NOT mean it needs to be kept in the closet (goes for religion too) .. it just means it needs to kept personal and not legislated upon others.
I think this has to do with resurrextion freedom from the life of habitual sin.
Baptised immersed into the freedom. The old man goes down and never comes up liike a sunken ship .
Subservience to the will of any of a number of gods is no freedom .. the only true freedom is atheism.
Keep the apostacy out of the church.
Christ is our high priest.
Go boldly to His throne for life and forgiveness.
Dear Austin, what is your denomination?
Austin is god's spokesperson
Austn and Rainy
Austin, Rainy and thephileo
Austin, Rainy, thephileo and believerfred
Austin, Rainy, the phileo, believerfred, etc etc et-fvcking-c
Austin is a denomination unto himself.
Poor Austin....poor, ripped off, paranoid, delusional, not getting laid
It's a wonder he has not sucked the end of his 12 gauge by now
"Gayness is a kind of fornication."
Simple orientation is not fornication.
Fornication is defined as intercourse outside of the bonds of marriage.
If a chaste hom/ose/xual is guilty of being a fornicator, then so are all chaste heteros.
Isn't denying gay people the right to marry actually making Christians at least partially culpable in any resulting fornication?
I wonder what the ruling would be if a group of Christians, none of them ordained ministers, were shipwrecked on an island in isolation for decades, and they still coupled up without benefit of ordained marriage?
Dark Helmut strikes again. Your online ramblings should be collected into one volume – you could publish as the modern day fuhrer.
If I had a gay workmate, I would not harm him in any way because of his gayness. I am aware that Christ died for me when I was still a sinner. Yet, it could happen that my gay workmate talks with me about faith matters. And, of course, according to today habits, he would like me to tell him: "Don't worry, God is very gracious, you can remain gay, and be a good Christian at the same time." "Regretably", I could not serve my workmate with such an evil statement, even an extremly evil lie. No, I had to tell him that, if he wants to become a Christian, he had to abandon gayness – he had to repent seriously.
Gay lifestyle and Christianity are not compatible. They are strictly opposed.
Of course, a few times my workmate may attend our church service, if he is really interested in faith matters. Maybe the Holy Spirit could give him awareness of his sinfulness during the divine service. Yet, that is the maximum. Membership is possible only through true repentance, faith in Jesus and sacramental baptism.
No legalisation of the sin!
"No legalisation of the sin!"
Thankfully, America's Founding Fathers were smart enough to ensure that legislation cannot be determined by churches
That's why breaking the majority of the 10 Commandments is not illegal, otherwise we'd be stoning to death 7-11 employees for working on Sunday
If he was gay, he would have born with it and have nothing from which to repent
That "born with it" is a nonsense.
Gayness belongs to the sinful nature of man since the Fall of Adam. Is is simply a sinful inclination like fornication, greed, avarice, hatred, murder, lie, etc.
and please ignore the many other species of mammals, where males like to bang other males... they aren't born that way either... it's all because of the 'sins' of Adam and Eve
The born with it is nonsense?
No, Rainy, you pompous fvcknut. what is nonsense is your preaching
If you think being gay is a choice, then turn gay for a month or two.
Let us know how it was, and just change your mind and become straight again.
" "Regretably", I could not serve my workmate with such an evil statement, even an extremly evil lie. No, I had to tell him that, if he wants to become a Christian, he had to abandon gayness – he had to repent seriously."
WOW!!!! That's not being a good anything. That is pure hatred and bigotry. There is a valid reason people walk away from your cult-people like you push them away with this crap.
A person can't abandon being gay because unlike you choosing to be a bigot, they didn't choose to be gay and by claiming they did you only show your own ignorance.
Gayness may be inherent, but that is the whole sinful nature of man since the Fall of Adam. Our sinful nature is absolutely no excuse for our concrete sins. It is our responsibility to repent, and to return to God when we realize our personal sinfulness including perhaps gayness.
God can set us free through Jesus.
No Rainer, that is your crazy belief making you think they are doing something wrong. They do no harm to society; they pay taxes; they love and feel compassion; they raise children...they do everything that I do in my hetero relationship, the only difference is the gender of who they have decided to be with in this world. If it doesn't affect you or cause harm to society, then it isn't your business or the business of your god or anyone. If you honestly believe that your god created all man equally, then why the picking and choosing??? You can't call yourself a good loving christian if you are picking and choosing based of your book or did you conveniently forget about the not judging lest ye be judged part???
Every marriage of a faithful man and a fatihful woman is a likeness of the relation between Christ and his Church. That shows what a holy state normal marriage is.
Has Christ saved Christ? Has the Church saved herself?
Gay marriage is the likeness of a total nonsense, even satanic nonsense: Pure satisfaction of the own lust.
Marriage has nothing to do with the church!! Marriage type ceremonies were happening long before christianity came in to existence.
Marriage is sanctioned by the government and those are the only laws that matter and as you can well see, christians in Secular countries are on the losing end of that battle, just as the lost the abortion battle, the right to own slaves battle, the right to keep women subservient battle...so when they have totally lost this battle and they will, what will be the next thing you pick on??
How about putting the giant book of multiple choice down and minding your own damn business when it comes to the personal lives of others??
If your god is so real, it'll sort it out in the end and doesn't need you doing its dirty work for it.
Worshiping a god that would treat a person different because said god created them different, is not anything to be proud of...it's disgusting and immoral.
Rainer Helmut Braendlein,
Are you STUMPED by my question above?
Good for you, Rainy
I am absolutely sure that people have been absolutely sure of the end times with each generation.
How are you different?
The difference between today and former times is the great apostasy of nearly all churches, and the extreme godlessness of today political leaders.
of course, YOU have it right, don't you Rainy?
what makes you think that leaders of the past were not just as godless?
Read the books of Charles Wright Mills and David Rothkopf, and you will become wise.
Like you, Rainy?
Here is a better suggestion. Pull the books, including the babble, out of your rectum
it is interfering with your thinking
At a minimum, read The Year Of Living Biblically by A.. J, Jacobs
Rainer Helmut Braendlein,
Skip all the HYPOCRISY. If you ACTUALLY cared about sin and sinners, you'd be spending your time trying to help all your fellow Christians who are committing the Ten Commandment sin of ADULTERY through divorce and remarriage.
There's FAR FAR MORE of your fellow Christian ADULTERERS than there are total gays.
It's all HYPOCRISY.
Of course, adultery is a sin. May God set us free of this.
Not the point. CHRISTIAN ADULTERY is a MUCH MUCH BIGGER problem than gays. So why are you spending time here when you could be fixing the BIGGER problem with all your fellow CHRISTIAN ADULTERERS? Don't you care about them?
Adultery is a severe sin like gayness. What shall I say more? May God preserve.
So how can you work with people who divorced and married again?
How can you let them into your church?
How do you "be fruitful and multiply" without fornicating? Your silly book is very contradictory...
If you go to drudge report they have a russia cover photo wth an obelisk in it
Drudge does subliminal skulls too.
Every religion has a list of sins – proscribed behaviour that incurs the supernatural wrath of the god(s).
The Church of the SubGenius is the ONLY religion that offers a comprehensive list of APPROVED sin, including (but not limited to):
Dancing whilst fondling one's cro/tch
Pyrokinetic Marshmallow Toasting
Donning the Sacred Porksuit
Communicating with Alien Snack Foods
Spitting on the SacraMental Snubbits
All this and more can be your for the low, low price of $30.
And remember, "Bob" is the only demi-god to offer eternal salvation or TRIPLE YOUR MONEY BACK!
I love this list. I saw it at work on my break and laughed a lot.
King James Version (KJV)
23 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.
4 These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.
5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover.
6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
8 But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
9 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
12 And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the Lord.
13 And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the Lord for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.
14 And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the Lord.
17 Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave loaves of two tenth deals; they shall be of fine flour; they shall be baken with leaven; they are the firstfruits unto the Lord.
18 And ye shall offer with the bread seven lambs without blemish of the first year, and one young bullock, and two rams: they shall be for a burnt offering unto the Lord, with their meat offering, and their drink offerings, even an offering made by fire, of sweet savour unto the Lord.
19 Then ye shall sacrifice one kid of the goats for a sin offering, and two lambs of the first year for a sacrifice of peace offerings.
20 And the priest shall wave them with the bread of the firstfruits for a wave offering before the Lord, with the two lambs: they shall be holy to the Lord for the priest.
21 And ye shall proclaim on the selfsame day, that it may be an holy convocation unto you: ye shall do no servile work therein: it shall be a statute for ever in all your dwellings throughout your generations.
22 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the Lord your God.
There was no Moses so the entire passage is bogus.
At is a sick sick sick lie reality.
and you are a delusional alcohol damaged drunk
Without using the bible show us the evidence that he is wrong...we'll be waiting!!
King James Version (KJV)
53 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession .
We gave up believing in fortune tellers a long time ago.
A particularly lonely male can convince many others to help him cross vast plains of lava, all the way across the Bering Strait: "And GOD SAID TO ME, if we could but cross the barrier of the great wasteland, there are women on the other side who will do anything we want... naked, blind women yearning for men such as we, who have never felt a man with their hands. That is the vision I have seen. Since I have been exiled from the tribe anyway for wanting everybody to touch me "there," I will lead you! Let me teach you the Great Way; God gave me the Secret Map to the Land of the Women who will Touch You "There." Now, who will follow me?"
Praise be unto J.R. "Bob" Dobbs.
Too little, too late !! The RCC is fast becoming irrelevant in today's world as the pedophilia scandals have opened up our eyes and minds to the crumbling theological and historical foundations of the RCC and all religions in general.
See p. 3 for added details.
Thats garbage. You havent touched any foundation with such knowledge..
There are no foundations left to touch. It's all BS. Aquinas' "proofs" are child's-play to refute.
In Austin terms that would be..."Ouchies, my poor crazy mind hurts and can't handle reality...therefore unless I say it is true, it isn't".
Once again: (and only for those who are not reading challenged)
1. origin: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482
“New Torah For Modern Minds
Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.
Such startling propositions – the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years – have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity – until now.
The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called "Etz Hayim" ("Tree of Life" in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine docu-ment. “
Adverb: Almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell.
2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations (or “mythicizing” from P, M, M, L and J) and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a ma-mzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). An-alyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Ludemann, Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, ) via the NT and related doc-uments have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.
The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hitt-ites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.
For added "pizzazz", Catholic theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".
Current RCC problems:
Pedophiliac priests, an all-male, mostly white hierarchy, atonement theology and original sin!!!!
2 b., Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley, Roger Williams, the Great “Babs” et al, founders of Christian-based religions or combination religions also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immacu-late co-nceptions).
Adulterous preachers, pedophiliac clerics, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology,
3. Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.
This agenda continues as shown by the ma-ssacre in Mumbai, the as-sas-sinations of Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, the Ft. Hood follower of the koran, the Filipino “koranics”and the Boston Marthon bombers.
And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.
The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.
4. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) – "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."
The caste/laborer system, reincarnation and cow worship/reverence are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."
The caste system, reincarnation and cow worship/reverence.
5. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."
"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"
Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circu-mstances of his life. e.g. Buddha by one legend was supposedly talking when he came out of his mother's womb.
Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies, and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.
Then, apply the Five F rule: "First Find the Flaws, then Fix the Foundations". And finally there will be religious peace and religious awareness in the world!!!!!
Observer. Do you believe the book of matthew is the word of God?
There are lots of words the HUMAN authors/editors wrote into the gospel, (the inherently biased text .. ie only the "good news"), written by believers, for believers to remind believers what believers already believed, for "proclamation" in liturgical services, (NOT for "reading" as 95 % of the population was illiterate), and later VOTED into the canon. I thought Jebus was the "word made flesh" ? Are you saying Matthew's gospel was Jebus in book form ?? Hmm. The "Inliteration" as opposed to the "incarnation".
And the word was God.
He came clothed in a robe dipped in blood and tjey called His name the Word of God.
I need a savior . Im a sinner. Help.
"He came clothed in a robe dipped in blood"
Ewww...what kind of weird fetish is that?
No hope for a dopes, (or popes), or goats.
Got any soaps on ropes ?
So...you're saying Jesus was a bloody book ?
The Bible does contain some good morals, but it also contains errors, contradictions, nonsense and hypocrisy. Surrounded by such, there's no reason to believe any particular part of it. Guess it's guilt by association.
Your friends will know you better in the first minute you meet than your acquaintances will know you in a thousand years.
marriage is a legal matter, not a religious one. want proof?
go to your local church/synagog/temple, bring a religious leader from every single religious denomination in the world with you, have them all marry you but don't get a legally issued marriage license. guess what? you're NOT married.
now go down to your local courthouse and get married without any sort of priest/iman/rabbi or any other religious leader, but with a legally issued marriage license. guess what? you ARE married.
you can add religious ritual and ceremony to a marriage, but it is in no way necessary. what is necessary is getting the legal paperwork together. marriage is about legal rights.
why do religious people think they have any right to force their own religious views about marriage on others when it is clearly a legal matter and NOT a religious one? the pope, a man that's never known the touch of a woman, shouldn't have a say on who can and cannot marry. religious h.omophobia is still h.omphobia.
Thats interesting. I as.sume its a legal paper for tax and child.
But.what about marriage bkessed by God.?
God is a fiction, so it doesn't matter. At any rate, the god claim has no bearing on it. This is a legal issue. Government policy makers should ignore the Pope. He has no right and no business telling any government what they can or should do. Governments should adhere to their consti-tutional principles, such as equality under the law.
If you think ho-mose-xuality is sinful, don't be gay. Stop trying to force your religious views on people who don't believe in them.
"But.what about marriage bkessed by God.?"
Are you talking about those of people who love each other or those FORCED on people by God?
A marriage blessed by god?? Which god first of all? Pagan's do hand fastings which can be legally defined a marriage providing a legal license issued by the government is in place. Without the piece of paper in place, it is not legal. Religion doesn't define marriage.
You can have your marriage blessed by god, but you won't actually be married until you marriage is blessed by the government.
Live never to be ashamed if anything you do or say is published around the world – even if what is published is not true.
"We thought about it for a long time, "Endeavor to persevere." And when we had thought about it long enough, we declared war on the Union. "
VATICAN CITY (AP) - Pope Francis confessed Thursday that he took the rosary cross of his late confessor from his casket and wears it to this day in a fabric pouch under his cassock. He said he did so telling the late priest, "Give me half your mercy."
The mort.ition put it in there
Did they bury him behind the glass vacuum? Return the stolen item to the dead. Rest.itution
Second. Are we supposed to ask dead people for half their spirit?
Im not so sure that is appropriare. Sounds like mystical conjouring if the dead whos casket was robbed.
Im sorry. If we are filled with God what room is therefor.another dead pope ?
Misguided idolatry? Or posession?
Spiritual gifts of the spirit are given by one spirit.
Angels are.ministering spirits. Do men die and become intetcessor angels who give spiritual gifts?
"Angels are.ministering spirits."
Not exactly. They killed 185,000 people in the bible.
Welll they had help in the old testament. That you refer to?
Nope. God sent them.
I have a "liscence" to tell authoritative truth just as long as no one asks me to prove it..
Oops. Wrong place.
How dare you! IM TELLING.
You can.die twice.
Or you can be born and born again and never really die .
But i look forward to my new tent.
you can die twice...
if you mean you are considered dead by a medical professional and then that person brings you back to life, then yes, that's true.
If you are sooooo looking forward to it, what is keeping you here?
Do you have tall buildings where you live? Do you have a sidearm, or a nearby highway?
Jeebus is waiting, Austin.
Don't waste time with us unrepentant sinners
You aren't convincing anyone, anyway
Go off, Austin, you can have your head in jeebus's lap in a fortnight
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
The simplest questions are the most profound.
Where were you born? Where is your home? Where are you going? What are you doing?
Think about these once in a while and watch your answers change.
Did Gods supernatural spirit give you special answers yet?
You teach best what you most need to learn.
Donald. I really see your positive and encouraging behavior as someone to cjerish dearly.
You are special.
So are you, Austin.
In the sense that you should be heavily medicated and not allowed into society
On mobile blog. Cant turn.to the second page.
Observer now. You there?
I'm still here. I do understand where you are coming from. You believe that if you consider that Donald or that I am correct that you will be in eternal torment for considering it. Am I right?
Derado.. right about what?
Do you think that if i truly had over 30 revelations that i would be tempted to rationalize that reality?
Trust me. I fear God all right.
Yep. Thirty events that you have INTERPRETED as revelations AFTER THE FACT.
Number of events that you are willing to put on the line as revelations for the future so we can all see if there is ANYTHING at all to your claims: ZERO. NIL. ZIP. NADA. NONE. ZILCH. NONE.
No i did put one out the other day.
"No i did put one out the other day"
Please copy and paste the EXACT ORIGINAL quote and time and then when it came true.
Didnt come true. Here.is anotjer wierd one.
Dreamed the lords and royalty of the u.k. disappeared without a trace.
Ok. So you will shortly be ZERO for Two.
Is ANYONE impressed?
Austin: You're such a cowardly little boy. Put up or shut up! If you're not willing to contact JRF then your stories remain your delusions and with delusions in the sense you have them, you're a potential danger to society.
I have another two very dear friends who are atheists now, but they were fundamentalist Baptist before. I just wanted to say I know the opposing view points are a lot to take in. I remember how very frightened they both were of the opposing view point and how terrified I was even coming out of something else.
I doubt very much if anything anyone says on an internet sight has ever changed my mind on something. I guess what I'm trying to say is that a person can not change a belief unless the other party wants their belief to be changed. This is true on both sides of the coin.
Ya and ultimately faith is delivered to you supernaturaly when you desire it.
Wanting it is different than researching. And even if like paul you hate it, God can over rule your doubt.
With that belief i should pray more!
Is anyone ever persuaded on these forums? It's easy to believe no one ever is. But that's not the case. With religion though, I think it takes a lot of work and a lot of argument to move someone a tiny bit.
When the Internet first started in the 90s, and I got my first AOL CD, and was exposed to message boards for the first time, I got involved in a political debate. It was in 94-95, so the discourse was rather right-wing at the time. I picked someone I thought seemed reasonable, and got into a huge debate with them over an issue which I won't go into now. Back and forth we went. I pulled out all the stops–researched and cited sources, lots of messages–everything I could. But to no avail. I thought they could be reached, but they were a brick wall. However another person, who I had thought was hopeless, told me that I totally changed his way of thinking about the issue.
You rarely ever convince the person you are debating–if ever. But sometimes you reach other people who are watching and listening, and sometimes they aren't even posting. I don't believe in God, and furthermore I am convinced that dogmatic ideologies like religion, especially religion, are harmful to society. And I also believe that the arguments against God are stronger than the arguments for.
It seems like no one is convinced, but there are many people, including myself who were once believers, and are not any more. It was the arguments against god that helped convince me. I think it's worthwhile to contribute to that argument.
I think you stated that really well. It is rare people change positions on anything quickly. I think it is a win if anything gets people to critically analyze any position they hold. It makes me re-evaluate my own positions. The reason I realized I was an atheist was in an effort to justify picking a church and understanding the foundation of the specific belief, and the larger Christian religion, so I could teach my children why I believed what I was teaching them. I didn't want to teach my children to just believe me because I said so. It didn't take long to realize I was just picking the faith I personally liked and doing so was not a path to what is actually true.....and the spell was broken. It was a huge burden off my back but it was not intended to end that way. I think that is what often happens...a piece at a time.
There is a youtube guy called evid3nc3 that describes relgious belief like a spider web...take out one strand and it is still strong and holds...but take out enough of them and it will collapse...that is what happened to me. But it took years.
Scott Clifton aka Theoretical Bullshit managed to eventually sway the die hard YouTube apologist Veritas48 over to atheism. Sometimes good arguments can convince even the most stalwart defenders of faith.
The straw that broke the proverbial camels back was the Argument from Nonbelief.
1. If God exists, God:
a) wants all humans to believe God exists before they die;
b) can bring about a situation in which all humans believe God exists before they die;
c) does not want anything that would conflict with and be at least as important as its desire for all humans to believe
God exists before they die; and
d) always acts in accordance with what it most wants.
2. If God exists, all humans would believe so before they die (from 1).
3. But not all humans believe God exists before they die.
4. Therefore, God does not exist (from 2 and 3).
Essentially it boils down to is this question.
Is God doing everything within his power to save the maximum number of souls? Clearly not so this becomes an intractable hurdle for anyone who believes that their God is all-loving.
I have seen a couple of that guys vids, he does a good job and thnk that is a good argument, But wouldn't the response be it is still man's responsibilty?
If it's man's responsibility, then where is morality really coming from? Men. I would say to those who claim God is the font of morality, that it is actually man. We bear the responsibility, and should receive the credit also. Christians want to burden us with guilt, but place credit on an imaginary God, whose existence they cannot demonstrate in the first place.
Well the response will be whatever weaselly excuse for God they can make up.
If God created it all then he is responsible for it all. If he truly has any interest in saving our souls then he would, by any means necessary. If he was real it would be obvious to everyone.
Instead we get this fickle trickster character who seems more inclined to hide from us rather than reveal himself.
I know, I know...the old free will argument. But that doesn't wash either. Adam and Eve had direct contact and knowledge of God...didn't hamper their free will any and they still managed to piss him off enough to get cast out of Eden. Same for Abraham, Moses, Noah and others as well as multitudes who directly witnessed some immensely powerful miracles. Didn't seem to hamper their free will either. And what about the angels. Heavenly beings themselves and at least one of them still actively fights against God. Seems like Satans' free will wasn't violated in the least. And how exactly is it in any way fair that a powerful supernatural malevolent being is permitted to fuck with God's plan for mankind?
No the image I get of God isn't one of a benevolent concerned father figure who cares for our eternal souls but rather a vindictive prick who shoots bullets at our feet to watch us dance.
Fortunately its all make believe so none of this malarkey matters at all.
It does take years
Remember where you came from, where you're going, and why you created the mess you got yourself into in the first place.
You're going to die a horrible death, remember, it's all good training, and you'll enjoy it more if keep the facts in mind.
God can give you sight.
Ask "lord open my eyes, let me hear you, i need more faith"
If you are sincere you may receive.
Ask Him to reveal His word to you.
Are you ready for the day of judgment?
Your only obligation in any lifetime is to be true to yourself.
Being true to anyone else or anything else is not only impossible, but the mark of a fake.
You arent a random mutation.
King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Oh my Austin, day of judgement in the sense you're speaking is another grand delusion invented by man to fool you...grow up wee one, it is the 21st century, not the 1st...we no longer live in caves, however you should locate one and enjoy seeing how long your imaginary friend keeps you safe.
Take your dying with some seriousness.
Laughing on the way to your execution is not generally understood by less-advanced life-forms, and they'll call you crazy.
Learning is finding out what you already know.
Doing is demonstrating that you know it.
Teaching is reminding others that they know just as well as you.
We are all learners, doers, teachers.
I have a liscence to tell authoritative truth.
About God . The liscence is the author of the bible?
Do you want an authoritative liscence?
"I have a liscence to tell authoritative truth. "
Such a delusional little boy, aren't you Austin? That book of fairy tales is not a license (note the spelling), it is a guide for the gullible and weak minded!
Anything with t.its or wheels is bound to cause you problems.
Thanks for the laugh Cheesemaker! As usual, your cheese is sharp. Finally something I can say "amen" to–although we can't live without either of them, can we?
No we can't....at least that is what my wife keeps telling me....
When I was a kid I lived on a lake. I remember one day being under water and looking up through the water at the sea wall and the grass and the trees.
When I think back on that memory I have a false memory. I remember it as though this guy was standing there on the side of the lake looking down at me smiling. There was no guy.
What really happened is I was looking at the trees and thinking about the guy, and my mind super imposed that image.
So now, when I look back on it I have a false memory.
were your eyes open? you still should not see things. or were they closed?
derado, have a good night bud.
Austin, my eyes were open. I wasn't hallucinating. I just have an incorrect memory about the event.
Ok tell the thruth what are you on? 🙂