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March 28th, 2014
01:22 PM ET
Does God have a prayer in Hollywood?By Daniel Burke, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor Los Angeles (CNN) – Forgive Darren Aronofsky if he’s begun to identify with the title character of his new film, “Noah.” Like the infamous ark-maker, the 45-year-old director has weathered a Bible-sized storm – and it’s not over yet. Aronofsky’s epic, which stars Russell Crowe and boasts a $130 million budget (with marketing costs to match), rode a swelling wave of controversy into American theaters on Friday. Despite fierce criticism from some conservative Christians, "Noah" was the top box-office draw last weekend, raking in $44 million in the United States. Part Middle-Earth fantasy flick, part family melodrama, the film is an ambitious leap for Aronofsky, director of the art-house hits “Black Swan” and “The Wrestler.” Both of those films were showered with praise and awards. “Noah,” on the other hand, has sailed into a stiff headwind. Glenn Beck and megachurch pastor Rick Warren blasted the film. The National Religious Broadcasters insisted “Noah” include a disclaimer acknowledging the filmmakers took “artistic license” with the Bible story. Several Muslim countries have banned the movie, citing Islam’s injunctions against depicting prophets. Even Paramount, the studio releasing “Noah,” has agitated Aronofsky, testing at least five different versions of his film with focus groups. “I can understand some of the suspicion because it’s been 50 years since an Old Testament biblical epic has come to the big screen,” Aronofsky said recently. “And in that time a lot of films have come out of Hollywood that have rubbed people the wrong way." Box office report: 'Noah' wreaks Old Testament havoc on its competitors 2014 is supposed to be the year Tinsel Town reversed that trend and finally got religion. A decade after “The Passion of the Christ” surprised Hollywood, rankled liberals and raked in $600 million worldwide, big studios are backing a flotilla of faith-based films. In addition to “Noah,” there’s “Son of God” from 20th Century Fox, which came out in March and is culled from the History Channel’s megahit miniseries, "The Bible." In April, Sony Pictures will release “Heaven is For Real,” based on the bestselling book and produced by Bishop T.D. Jakes, a Texas megachurch pastor and multimedia entrepreneur. The movie “Exodus,” directed by Ridley Scott and starring Christian Bale as Moses, is scheduled for December. So, too, is “Mary, Mother of Christ,” which is billed as a prequel to Mel Gibson’s “Passion.” More biblical epics may be on the horizon. Steven Spielberg is reportedly in talks to direct another movie about Moses, and Warner Brothers recently bought a script about Pontius Pilate. The box office hasn’t seen this many faith-based films since Charlton Heston delivered the “The Ten Commandments” in Technicolor. And that’s not even counting “God is Not Dead,” the indie sleeper that took in $8.5 million last weekend. So what’s behind Hollywood’s religious revival? “The biggest factor is the dynamic growth of the box office in international markets,” said Paramount vice chairman Rob Moore, one of the forces behind “Noah.” MORE ON CNN: A flood of reviews for 'Noah' Moore pointed to the $14 million his film has made in Mexico and South Korea, two of the more than 20 countries where “Noah” will run this year. As Hollywood’s supply of comic-book heroes seems to run dry, studios know the Good Book comes with a built-in audience of billions. The Bible’s heroes and villains are jeered and cheered on nearly every continent. Its morally complex stories are rife with blockbuster-ready special effects like locust plagues, apocalyptic floods and talking donkeys. But the controversy over “Noah” illustrates the promise and the peril of bringing the Bible to the big screen. Yes, there’s a ready-made audience that loves the book, but will they tolerate a script that strays from Scripture? On the other hand, will increasingly secular young Americans flock to see films that look and sound like sermons? "The earlier emphasis of faith-based films was to sacrifice quality for the message," Jakes said in a recent interview. "But it's dangerous to divide entertainment from evangelism. You're not going to connect with the average movie-goer if you're not putting out good stuff." But even Jakes, a longtime pastor and film producer, said it's not easy to turn a religious text into a movie.  Megachurch pastor and multimedia entrepreneur Bishop T.D. Jakes' latest film, "Heaven is For Real," releases in April. The author of "Heaven is For Real" has been adamant that the movie mirror the bestselling book. And Jakes cautions that the film's depiction of heaven does not comport with Christian orthodoxy. "It's a little boy's vision of heaven," he said. "It's not a theological film by a council of scholars." Like Jakes, Mark Burnett said he sees the silver screen as an evangelistic tool. "We believe that over the next few decades, billions of people are going to see 'Son of God'," the reality-show producer said. "This is not just some film to us." Burnett pitched his movie hard to religious leaders before its release. Evangelical pastors like Rick Warren rented out entire theaters, and Catholic bishops endorsed the film – which hews to the New Testament telling of Jesus’ life. The Christian push lifted “Son of God” to No. 2 on its opening weekend in February when it made more than $26 million in the United States. Since then, sales have fallen sharply. But Burnett cautions filmmakers against bowdlerizing the Bible to succeed at the box office. “There’s a big price to pay for departing from the sacred text,” he said. Just ask Universal Pictures, the studio behind Martin Scorcese’s “The Last Temptation of Christ,” which sparked outrage in 1988. Not only did Christians boycott the movie, in which Jesus fantasizes about married life, some sent death threats to studio executives. “These stories hit really sensitive areas,” said Elijah Davidson, director of the Reel Spirituality program at Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, California. Noah’s tale is a prime example. Just four short Bible chapters, it’s more sketch than story: The protagonist doesn’t speak until the boat finally lands ashore. “And yet it’s a foundational story for many Christians,” Davidson said. For centuries, theologians have taught that God’s covenant with Noah and post-flood promise to be merciful prophesied Christ’s later arrival. Building Noah’s arc Aronofsky, who describes himself as culturally Jewish but not especially religious, said he respects how important the Noah story is for believers. “We tried very hard not to contradict anything in the Bible,” the director said. “But we also wanted to bring the story alive for a 21st century audience.” Wiry and intense, with a shaved head and a Brooklyn accent, Aronofsky looks like a man who’s just finished one fight and is girding for another. “What’s been missing from the whole controversy is my personal passion for the film,” the director said. “I’ve been thinking about this for 30 years.”  "Noah" director Darren Arnofsky's previous films have included the art-house hits "Black Swan" and "The Wrestler." When he was 13, Aronofsky’s middle-school class in Coney Island was asked to write about peace. He penned a poem about Noah called “The Dove” that was recognized by the United Nations. (As a thank you for setting him on the creative path, Aronofsky gave his teacher, Ms. Fried, a bit part in “Noah.”) Even as a child, the director said, the Noah story unsettled him. Aronofsky didn’t see the happy tale of rainbows and doves told in children’s books. He saw the humans and animals consumed by the waters – the world drowning in the deluge outside the ark. As he began his film career, the director grew obsessed with telling the Noah story from that perspective – and employing the power of modern special effects to portray Earth’s first apocalypse. “It’s one of the oldest and most famous stories in the world,” Aronofsky said. “And yet it’s never been told on the big screen.” There are good reasons for that. After all, it’s a dark story. God, distressed at human wickedness, decides to hit the cosmic reset button. His waters wipe all life from the planet, except for the fortunate few on the ark. After the storm, Noah gets goodly drunk – perhaps the first known case of survivor’s guilt – and curses the descendants of his son Ham to slavery. To understand Noah, and to give his character a story arc, Aronofsky and his co-writer, Ari Handel, spent 10 years poring over the Book of Genesis and the midrash – stories written by rabbis to fill out the Bible’s narratives. They also read texts like the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Book of Jubilees and the Book of Enoch, a work ascribed to Noah’s great-grandfather. Handel, who studied neuroscience, is known as an obsessive researcher. The script’s bibliography runs five pages long, single-spaced. “We had to figure out how Noah and his family would get through this, and what it would feel like,” Aronofsky said. The studio also hired a Christian consultant for the film. John Snowden is a former youth pastor at Vineyard Christian Fellowship Church, where Moore, the Paramount executive, is a member. Snowden, who was pastor to Moore's son, said the filmmakers’ questions ranged from the sublime (Why did God create human life?) to the ridiculous (Would Christians be upset if Noah wears pants?). “I gave them a sort-of manifesto of Christian theology,” said Snowden, 38, who now lives in Nepal. “The most important part of the story is why God created humanity, which is basically to reflect God’s glory. Those are the kind of conversations we would have.” Script or Scripture? Several evangelical leaders have posted positive reviews of the film, and, with the help of a Christian marketing firm hired by Paramount, are spreading the word that nothing in "Noah" belies the Bible. But others aren’t so sure. On March 16, megachurch pastor Rick Warren tweeted this message to his 1.3 million Twitter followers:
For the record, Aronofsky said he’s made the “least biblical biblical film ever made.” That is, don’t expect the camel-and-sandals settings of last century’s Bible movies. “We wanted to smash those expectations, Aronofsky said. “We are reinventing the biblical epic for the 21st century.” Count conservative broadcaster Glenn Beck among the unimpressed. Before he even saw the movie, Beck, who is Mormon, called “Noah” a “slap in the face” to religious people. “It’s dangerous disinformation,” he told his 10 million radio listeners. After Paramount screened “Noah” for Beck last weekend, he acknowledged that blasting the film sight unseen was “kind of a dirtball” move. Then he blasted the movie again, calling it a “$100 million disaster.” Beck’s biggest problem with “Noah” was Noah himself, whom Mormons believe is the angel Gabriel in human form. “I always thought of Noah as more of a nice, gentle guy, prophet of God,” Beck said, “and not the raving lunatic Paramount found in the Bible.” MORE ON CNN: Is 'Noah' film sacred enough? Jerry Johnson, president of the National Religious Broadcasters, said he has the same problem with Aronofsky’s depiction of Noah. The Bible calls Noah a “righteous man,” Johnson said. In the movie, his character is much more complex. Noah begins the film as a rugged environmentalist who teaches his family to respect the Creator and all of creation. As he becomes increasingly zealous, Noah seems bent on destroying life rather than saving it. “I understand that the writers want to create tension and resolve it, but they push it to a spot where if you haven’t read Genesis, you wouldn’t know whether Noah is really a man of faith or not.” Moore, the Paramount executive, said focus groups had similar questions: How much of the film is from the Bible and how much was invented by Aronofsky? At Johnson’s urging, Paramount agreed to include a disclaimer before the opening credits and in marketing materials stating that the film is “inspired” by the Bible and true to its values but takes certain liberties with the story. (The language mirrors Dreamworks' disclaimer for “The Prince of Egypt,” which was based on the Book of Exodus.) “People needed to know upfront that this is not a literal re-telling of Scripture,” Moore said. “It helped set their expectations for a movie about a guy who goes on an intense journey. This is probably not the Noah they remember from Sunday school.” Aronofsky and Handel insist, however, that their film never directly contradicts Genesis, and even takes pains to remain faithful to it. The ark, for example, is built to the Bible’s specifications, down to the last cubit. Ultimately, though, the director has little patience with literalists on either side of the believer-atheist divide. It's ungenerous to insist, as some Christians do, that there is only one way to interpret Genesis, according to Aronofsky. But it's also pointless to argue, as some atheists have, that no ark could possibly hold all the animals. The story of the flood has lasted for millennia not because it’s "right" – or wrong – but because it’s deep and alive and unsettling, the director said. The artist's job, like Noah's, is to make sure those kinds of stories survive – to prepare us for the next storm.
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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I always wondered, if god wanted to kill all the men, women, children, and animals on the planet, why go through the drama of a great flood, big boat, two of every species, olive branch, etc. if god is all powerful, he could have just zapped everyone dead in a nano- second. Then, just like that, BADDA BING ! , repopulate the planet again to his liking.
That is what actually happened, God zapped the universe, then reconstructed it 1 nanosecond ago complete with our memories, histories, fossils, cosmic background radiation, etc.
You make a very good point, and it shows your frame of reference as a creature with mortality, bound into time.
Let's not talk about killing, but about life, as an example to illustrate. Creation is a good example. Thats about life. So how would we create, and how would a God outside of time create? We might create instantly, now, because our time is limited. A being outside fo time, who sees time as another dimension only, would be just as likely to create through a slow process such as a Big Bang followed by star creation followed by evolution for billions of years. What is billions of years to somethnig that exists outsdie of time? Its just part of the tapestry of the creation, time is not more important than anything else. Except to us mortal creatures of course its important to us !
The story of Noah of course is not factual. And its derived from Babylonian myths, so its not even original to the Hebrews. The remarkable thing about the Jewish Book is not where it is wrong, which is often, but where it is right, which is rare in anything. How many books even have a bit of being right in them? Very few. So there are nuggets in the Jewish Book, these are worth a lot, more than gold, but you have to kind of read through the slag to get them. Think of it from their point of view – the writers of that book were priest in diaspora in Babylon I think if I recall my biblical history, they were trying to create a legend of the Jewish people to unite their people and codify their religious practices. They threw in any old manuscrupits or legends they had. Noah was one of those, either a manuscript or a verbal legend. As far as I know.
It sounds more like you believe in a Deistic god.
Why is any god needed? Just 'cause you can't handle "we don't know" as the answer to what preceded the Big Bang or what happens after we die?
At the point of calling it personal, just about anything would qualify. If it is only being used as a label, then my cat Darwin could be god. I think people have a hard time dropping the label and simply admitting they don't know.
Perhaps this God is more merciful then some think ?
Because drowning infants, fetuses and animals is very merciful. Sure thing, dip wad.
Because God chooses how HE pleases..not how YOU want
That's the trait of a dictator, not a loving father...
NOT at all....sorry..but God is all knowing.He knows the future as well..he makes best decisions for us..not for Himself..Im sorry you feel he seems like a dictator....but seems almost like you don't like rules and such
"NOT at all....sorry..but God is all knowing. He knows the future as well..he makes best decisions for us..not for Himself.."
So he (supposedly says), but I would argue his reported actions say otherwise. Even if the end effect of the flood could be considered a "good", the method is not very loving.
"Im sorry you feel he seems like a dictator....but seems almost like you don't like rules and such"
On the contrary, I believe rules are extremely important to a well functioning society. A dictatorship is not a well functioning society. Hitler killed millions for the ultimate "good", as did Stalin and so many others. How can I condemn them and not see the actions of god in the bible as equivalent? Because of supposed authority? That's the same argument used by dictators.
however..youre comparing apples to oranges when you compare god to Hitler..God is not a human..he is not in leadership cause he feels like it...you assume he does all this thru feelings...it is His very nature to be Judge..to be ove rall..etc
There are 8.7 million species living on the planet. Did the movie explain how Noah got them all on the boat? What happened to the plants ? Did the fish survive ?
stop!
you're not playing by the rules!
you're not supposed to question anything
Surely you must understand that mankind came by way of the 'magic salamander'.
Pop, Boom, and Bang.
Evolution explain on the cheap so to speak.
Of course not. It was dirt and god spit.
Evidently God directed the animals to go to Noah. Also, later when populations started to grow quickly, God evidently puffed up the earth from the flat disk into the sphere that we know today to hold more people. Popcorn has been around for thousands of years naturally, but it was evidently a Dr Alexander Anderson who borrowed God's idea to create puffed grain for the first time at the 1904 World's Fair. Dr. Alexander’s invention of puffed grain was first introduced at the World’s Fair in St. Louis in 1904. The grain was shot from a battery of eight guns and on a poster it was called “The Eighth Wonder of the World.”
I don't see the word "species" in the Bible
No – the word most often used is "kind". One which has no consistent defintion. The most popular usage though appears to be similar to the "Family" level of taxonomy, which is ironic since most that argue from the position of "kinds" don't realize that this allows for speciation, something most of them deny.
So even at the "family" level, you are left with well over 20K different types of animals (not counting bacteria).
The problems still remain no matter how you trice to slice it.
Actually..one also has to use context..given the size of the ark, it is OBVIOUS to any idiot that 20K cannot fit in there.....thus the 20k is a ridiiculous assumption by those who want to discredit the writer of Genesis...
True – I did assume that by you saying "species" doesn't appear in the bible, you were referring to what the bible does use as a category (and one that I"ve heard used in similar arguments in the past), i.e. "kinds".
If that is not the case, and you feel 20K pairs/sets of animals isn't accurate, what would you estimate? After all, this all comes down to a matter of size vs space. We have a good feel for space (i.e. the ark), now we need to determine if that space could fit the size of the animals necessary to repopulate the planet with the current diversity we see today.
It's a story. The fact that it was adapted from a book that many people believe to be true is irrelevant. The director made it clear he took artistic license. He never claims his interpretation of the story has divine providence or should be something anyone ought to believe. It's amazes me how the same people who ague endlessly about the silliness of political correctness, are so quick to get offended over something like this. It's a movie. If you don't wat to see it, don't. If you did and it didn't entertain you, then that's a shame.
Dear Ladies and Gentlemen:
Methuselah's blessing which healed the womb of Ila and the seed Methuselah gave Noah from the garden of Eden which grew miraculously into a vast forest teeming with plant and animal life, are in my opinion examples of appropriate artistic license which in good taste illustrate God's perfect power, love, unfailing blessing and goodwill.
Every word in the Old Testament bespeaks Jesus.
Every word in the Old Testament embodies God's unlimited, unqualified blessing, forgiveness and love toward mankind.
God is Pure Love.
Sincerely yours,
Caleb Boone.
Caleb, your post is a steaming load of horse manure throughout. First, regarding your Christ-sacrifice thing, that whole Jesus story is complete bull-do from the get-go. How is it that your omnipotent being couldn't do his saving bit without the whole silly Jesus hoopla? And how was Jesus' death a "sacrifice", when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers? Pretty pathetic "god" that you've made for yourself there. The foundation of your whole religion is rubbish.
Now, regarding "love" from your nasty sky fairy, your "god", let's take a look at what your nasty Christian book of horrors AKA the bible presents your murderous god as demanding of you. To cite just a few examples from both foul testaments:
Numbers 31:17-18
17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”
Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Leviticus 25
44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.
Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.
And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.
So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.
Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
Those were passages from the Jewish Book and from the Revelations book which is known by scholars to be a fake. So I'm ot encouraging you to profane or disrespect the words of the saviour, please dont, but I'm pointing out your strongest objections are to things which are only tangentially realted to Christianity. Due to decisions maed in 350 AD, much later, to include the Jewish Book as a historical reference to Christianity. Anyhow, thats my point its not a huge one heh.
God kills everyone on the planet. "God is pure love" ???!!!
so you think it is unloving for God to judge and unloving for God to take physical life from this planet..a life that is temporary?
So you think that all the irredeemably bad people that died went to heaven? That's interesting...
not at all....God OFFERS redemeption...its the people who reject..those who reject do not go to heaven....its their choice..either directly..or by denial that such places exist
But that puts us back to the disposition of those who died. Was every infant on earth irredeemably evil? Every child? Every youth? Everyone on the planet (most of which would have had no way of knowing who Noah even was)?
well..if there as no afterlife..it would be a bad thing..however..we argue that a God judges..and kills all..then we also see that there is an after life...and is it a terrible thing to do to a place where there is no more sin..no more evil..?
I'm reading the Jewish Book now. I have some real difficulties with it. The New Testaments, the Gospels, these inspire and attract me and always have. But the Jewish Book troubles me.
The violence troubles me the lack of affectionate behavior from God as described in the Jewish Book troubles me. This is often not a nice God, at least as portrayed by the ancient Jews. I will only worship a nice God, a good God. I won't kowtow to a God simply because It is powerful. It must be Good. To us, to be good must mean also to be compassionate, to help the unfortunate, to have sympathy for the weak and for all creatures. Dos the portrait of YW as portrayed by the Jewish priest of antiquity have these characteristics?
I am saying, is it right to worship a God who is not good? Who is not kind? I will not. Jesus and the God he teaches are good, kind, decent, compassionate, worth to be obeyed.
Yo should not simply bow to power, that would make you bow to 'satan also, or to kings on earth.
sharncedar,
" Jesus and the God he teaches are good, kind, decent, compassionate, worth to be obeyed. "
If you buy into the party line, Jesus IS that "God" of the Old Testament. He wrote the dang thing. He (allegedly) even said he did not want a dot of it changed or disregarded.
OT , NT , it's the same god isn't it? Or are you saying there are two gods ?
Does the nice god take vengeance, and punish people for not worshiping him ? If not what does bible passage mean ?
2 Thessalonians, 8-9:"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."
So slavery, condoning rape; condoning child abuse shows your gods love??? That's not exactly what I'd call love.
Every word in the Old Testament bespeaks the pipe dreams, ethnocentrism and superst.itions of ancient Middle Hebrews, along with a few morality tales (also available elsewhere in other ancient cultures) to try to civilize the tribe.
Whats goo about the Jewish Book must be taken in the cntext of the times – 1000 BC or whatever. At which time man's understanding of his Creator was much less advanced. It was a HUGE advance in spiritual knowledge for the time – concepts like individual sin, clean versus unclean behavior, duty to one's neighbors, a single montheistic God, these are huge leaps forward.
Issac Newton's mechanics has been proven wrong by Einstein yet we still consider him a giant of science.
The Jewish Book for its time was the greatest religious work on the earth, far advanced above say Plato and his weak musings about morality.
" It was a HUGE advance in spiritual knowledge"
False. Since there has never been shown anything "spiritual" you cannot have knowledge of it. There has never been any evidence of anything "spitiual.
It was a huge advance in propaganda about what some people thought were true, but really they just made it up.
It was an advance of sorts for the philisophical...otherwise known as the realm of imagination.
Issac Newton's mechanics was not proven wrong by Einstein. It was proven limited. Einstein never came to grips with quantum mechanics – is quantum mechanics wrong? Science is self-correcting and extends knowledge. Nothing has changed in religion or of our understanding of our relationship with an alleged but never proven creator because there is no actual evidence for any god. None!
Dear Caleb Boone,
Perhaps you should finish the fourth grade before embarking on your lecture tour.
It's not about accurately depicting an ancient myth, it's about making a flick that people will pay to watch.
Hollywood can't portray it accurately.
Their chief audience is secular.
They are in business to make money and if they can do it that fits in with their agenda all the more better.
A real god would help them out. A real god would want its ideas to be shown to all and would freely assist... and not depend on the ridiculous fantasies and superst/itions of ancient men from the Middle East.
ahhh yes..a real God would be a puppet master eh? come on..people make choices.God does not do it for them
Kermit – "ahhh yes..a real God would be a puppet master eh? come on..people make choices."
I'd love to make an INFORMED choice if that's OK with you? If people were allowed to know if god exists, they wouldn't be robots, they'd actually be able to make truly "free" choice.
Who are the robots?
Kermit "Who are the robots?"
It is often argued that if god did actually undeniably revealed himself to humanity, we would have no choice but to believe and follow him. We would be "robots", without free will. I don't believe this is the case and would prefer to make an informed choice. One book amongst many is not enough to convince me that what it says is true.
I don tknow who would argue such..even the BIble says we still have freedom to choose..even after becoming a Christian..we don't become mindless
Their agenda is to make money
People complain that the Batman movies aren't true to the source material too. And the Avengers. And Superman. And the Fantastic Four.
"Their chief audience is secular."
But the majority of people in the US are christian, so by default, the chief audience would be primarily christian.... sooooo... what's your point again?
The movie Noah was much better than the bible version, Aronofsky did a great job creating interesting, human characters and expanded the innate drama in the situation. It is a powerful story either way, God conspires with man to destroy almost all life to start over. It is violent and foreboding.
It made me think how traumatic this story could be to a child. Kill everything, makes Kill Bill look like Polly Anna. Add in the story of Abraham, where a child was ordered sacrificed, then saved, that is some traumatic stuff. This being ordered by an omnipotent being, there is no appeals court, scary for an adult, imagine for a child.
Then it struck me, how these Abrahamic religions work. How they can cast a lifelong spell, generation after generation. They exploit an evolutionary vulnerability in humans, traumatic bonding. There are many examples of this, Stockholm Syndrome, Basic Training, Hazing, Battered Wife Syndrome, etc.
The core tactic of these trauma bondings is the infliction of persistent trauma, then, when the trauma is stopped, the victim misinterprets the absence of trauma as kindness. The victim then bonds with the inflictor.
These biblical stories of an omnipotent God that will kill everything or a child, drilled in Sunday school, put the fear of God in. Then you get the stories of the mercy of Issac, or Noah, infinite love (if you comply), then complete the formula for traumatic bonding.
I don't think religious leaders cooked this up, I doubt they even realize why this works, they just know it does work. Because it is instilled in children, it is a perpetuity. Just like humans domesticated themselves unconsciously, they have impressed Stockholm syndrome on themselves perpetually and unconsciously.
Amazing.
So the way beliefs work is they form the framework upon which your thoughts exists and perceptions exist. Change your beliefs and the world will literally change, your vision processing ill even be different. Beliefs come before perception or conception of ideas. So in your screed you reel off a set of beliefs that have been instilled in you by authorities – Stockholm Syndrome, Basic Training, Hazing, Battered Wife Syndrome – these are a bunch of fantastic and improbable belief set that have little to do with reality and color your thinking int something bizarre that makes you deny God.
I'm not a big fan of the Jewish Book and its ultra-violent philosophy, but I would recommend pointing your laser of cynicism at your own mind first, thereby deconstructing yourself, you'll find its just as easy to do. And if its good to deconstruct the noah believer I would assume its good to descontruct oneself. Much more painful, but equally good, is it not? And there is nothing in you, I guarantee you, that approaches anythnig that can be considered logical or universally true. These concepts like Stockholm Syndrome, Basic Training, Hazing, Battered Wife Syndrome arre very mythological and emotional in their appeal, which shows moe you are not a rationalist, not a quantum physicist.
Classic ad hominem argument. My biases are not a counter argument, even if true. Counter the argument presented, the person making the argument is irrelevant.
Well it was more like an ad fides argument – starting with the person's beliefs, and saying they will color their thinking and lead to certain conclusions. Which is generally true, right? Give two different belief sets the same evidence and each is guaranteed to conclude in the manner expected. M attack against your beliefs wasn't that they are wrong, it was that they were instilled by authority figures within you, that they are not authentically your own.
So evidence + belief framework = conclusions. I don't question your process of deriving a conclusion from the beliefs that your have had installed in your brain by the authority figures of your enviroment. Thats mechanical – all people who have been force-fed that same set of beliefs will conclude identically with you, provided their brains are functioning normally.
So what else can we argu with other than your beliefs? Now, its impossible to argue directly with a person's frame of reference, it is their frame of reference so even the argument occurs within it. So what I doinf is suggesting you turn your abilities towards cynical deconstruction towards your own beliefs as an exercise. Its a very painful exercise, but it will allow you to possibly find an authentic and personal frame of reference.
Meditiation would be a good start. In meditiation, you attempt to dissolve at least temporarily your frames of references and exist without them. So thats a good start. At some point, I'm sure you will realize that all those ideas coming at you from the authority figures of your environment are not authentic. Thats an important process in becoming neself.
I'll go work at it too, its something I could surely benefit from.
Besides the fact that all humans have belief bias, do you have any argument against the hypothesis in the OP?
sharncedar, well aren't you the arrogant thumbs up your backside berk with a small man issue.
Some have even liken your buzz word of the Stockholm syndrome to the h-o-m-o-s-e-x-u-l-i-t-y indoctrination as in telling the young people they are Gay if they question certain thoughts.
If one is to make the argument that children are only parroting what they hear as youngsters then like religion the gay agenda works the same way.
As well as those who grow up watching their parents smoke dope in front of them and now with the push to legalize marijuana the message that says it's OK.
Subliminal is now out in the open so to speak.
So you agree?
No, because people walk away from religion more than they stay with it.
The going to church on Sunday with the parents growing up was just that. Nothing more. And even the parents are just following a ritual pass down from their parents.
I might be incline to reverse that view if ever see a young adult walk away from his h-o-m-o-s-e-x-u-l upbringing/following along. But as the story is told they where born gay so if's highly unlikely you will see that.
124,
Historically, people didn't walk away. Today they do. The Internet and other easy ways to get alternative information allows much more deprogramming. That doesn't bode well for the classic religions. New religions, or evolved classics may stem that tide.
The internet has only gave way to distortion. People get their fact from Wikipedia where anyone can make a claim of this, that and the other. Without any more facts then anyone.
And let's not forget the b.s. filtered by both sides Limbaugh/Beck vs. Reddit and infowars.
124,
There is a lot of distortion and noise on the Internet. But that doesn't change the fact that people now have easy access to alternative world views.
Again it means nothing when those view are nothing more then 'personal opinions'.
You're the one who said people are walking away from religion.
Like teaching children there is a god watching them who will burn them in fire for eternity if they screw up, or magic , angels and heaven exist. People have been told that for a very long time, and you are right, it's time to stop.
There is no gay agenda by the way. There are gay people, and there is false religions that t4each it is wrong. If it is wrong, blame your god, since it is a natural occurance.
Wouldn't it be nice if people dropped their beliefs, and accepted reality.
Bad logic...murder is a natural occurrence..that doesn't mean it is ok....just because it is "natural" does not mean it is ok...and people choose to do sin..not God..so blame the people..for their decisiosns.not God
kermit
Hey, you are starting to get it. I do blame people for their actions, because as far as I can see, gods are imaginary.
then stop blaming God for the problems....we don't blame him..we take responsibility for our actions..I don't even say "the devil made me do it" cause the devil aint a puppet master
More irrelevant gay bashing? You somehow find a way to bring homosexuality into every post.
It's almost as if you are obsessed with it, lol.
Teaching kids they will suffer horrific eternal punishment for not believing in an invisible magic man who lives in the sky is child abuse.
Read "The Source" by Michener. He writes about the 500 years Jewish Rabbis were locked up to write the Talmud and the Torah. Our society has broken through the "dogma" sent down by our clergy to find out the real reason behind the "myths" presented by our established clergy. They want answers and are finding them readily. I am surprised our major denominations have not banned the internet. another good book is Monyhan's "The faith". For too long these "clergy" have tried to suppress anything their dogma does not agree with. It is understandable why the majority of our current society has been able to see the emperor is truly naked.........
bear,
Thanks for the references, I'll check them out.
Glenn Beck speaks of "disinformation"? He is a member of a "faith" that believes Eden was in Missouri and your skin will lighten if you are black and become a mormon. A phony church invented by a 19th century huckster. I guess that WOULD be an expert on disinformation.
If you believe the story of Noah, then you believe he was 600 years old when he and his sons (aged over 100 years) were instructed by god to build the ark. You also believe he somehow gathered one male and one female of every species on earth (because apparently all those species lived in his backyard) so that he and those species could survive after their angry god killed everyone on earth because he was mad with what he had created. And yet religious people wonder how anyone could be atheist...
IT did NOT say he gathered them..but that God brought them to Him....read the Bible for real next time
kermit
It DOES say that Noah gathered the food. Tell me, how did he get to australia and back with fresh eucalyptus leaves for the koala bears, since they only eat certain types, and they are indigenous to australia. Just one example of the many animals that have very selective diets that noah would have to deal with.
uhh,,it did nto ay he went OUT to gather them..the word also means that he gathered them INTO the ark..it was clear that God borght them to Noah
Throughout history there have been organizations and individuals who have moved to stamp out those things that would allow us to question. The Catholic Church in the dark ages, Adolph Hitler in the mid 1930s, and now Glenn Beck and Rick Warren. What is it they fear? That we are unable to decide for ourselves what we believe is right and wrong? That they should have the capacity to destroy any knowledge that might be gained by merely observing? The National Religious Broadcasters follow suit by a condemnation of this film for the same reason. In scripture, John 8:32 notes "Then you will note the truth and the truth shall set you free". What in God's name have these people, other than the knowledge of how many numbers of those they reach, sets their agenda to advise against watching a film or reading a book or just wondering how we got here. Beck is a Mormon and has been allowed to voice his opinion on the air tainted with his mentor John Smith who was a bamboozler in upstate New York and became the cornerstone of one of the most famous religious movements in recent history. He is allowed to express himself but will recommend others with differing opinions cannot. Absurd as this country is founded upon freedom of speech. Why does he use his to suppress others? I believe it is only to raise his ratings. The film industry has always been about entertainment but above that it has been about communication. Of ideas, thoughts, and philosophies that far transcend the "naysayers" of this world. We need to be able to learn and judge for ourselves......
The condemnation comes from miss trust.
Hollywood can not be trusted to tell a story without add lib so to speak. This movie was released now because Easter is upon us.
Which means lets make the money before it bombs. As noted before they work around 'events'.
And perhaps more importantly Hollywood is a tool and a political too as well. And it reaches a large segment of society.
"After Paramount screened “Noah” for Beck last weekend, he acknowledged that blasting the film sight unseen was “kind of a dirtball” move."
speaking of "dirtball moves," let's including this article. TWO times it tells the reader about Beck blasting the film before it finally gives us the quote above.
It tells us "...“Noah,” on the other hand, has sailed into stiff criticism," but later admits "Several evangelical leaders have posted positive reviews of the film, and, with the help of a Christian marketing firm hired by Paramount, are spreading the word that nothing in "Noah" belies the Bible. But others aren’t so sure."
Not a whole lot of "stiff" criticism. The main thing readers have to weather is the "stiff" b.s spun through this article!
Hollywood is mostly about fiction anyway so whats the problem?
Of course "Heaven" is real. There is a strip joint in my town called "Heaven" and I go there all the time. it is very real. Why mame a movie trying to prove it's real? It is very real to me.
And yet there is no problem reducing Thor to crime fighting. Maybe Jesus should be in S.H.E.I.L.D.
except he'd be the useless character, like Aquaman...
When one of the most powerful men in film decides to honor Iran-supporter Barack-Hussein Obama at his Holocaust foundation fundraiser...I'd say Hollywood is all out of prayers.
Why do people like you decide to use a blog like this to beat on the man?? I get it, he supports all you don't...suck it up, join us in the 21st century and see him for the better man he is...be thankful he's not Bush!
Noah would have been a better movie if they would have cast Noah and his family as Gays and lesbians who refused to procreate so the animals rebel and start jumping overboard. Would have been far more entertaining and for more politically correct. That would have been even less perverted than the movie is now.
If your thinking about going out to watch Noah, save your money. You would be better off watching Jack and the Giant beanstalk meets the Hobbit. You have giant rock creatures that are fallen angels, Ham who doesn't want to be on a boat for 40 days and 40 nights without some strange of his own. Then you have the stowaway king who eats some of the animal pairs to gain his strength back to kill Noah. Finally you have Noah the baby killer who threatens to kill two newborn twin girls because he thinks God only wants him to save the animals. So once the task of saving the animals is finished his last duty is the kill everyone aboard including the babies.
Ridiculous. 2014 Noah has to go down as the worst remake of a known story ever. Had to be written and directed by an atheist. The actors should have walked out and refused to do the movie. I would have had more respect for them. Man I hate wasting money.
So in summary, you have the worst renditions of The Hobbit, Jack and the giant beanstalk, The Shining, Braveheart, and Mad Max all rolled into an attempt to tell a biblical tale about Noah and the ark.
Ranks among the worst movies ever made.
What I don't quite understand is how they could have read the bible then produced this movie. It would be like reading Moby Dick and making a movie about it by casting the three guys from Hangover who go to the Amazon and make a pet out of an electric eel while high on guava juice.
psst. (they never read the Bible)
coowboy
Hollywood does that all the time. When the realeased "Bram Stoker's Dracula" it was not what Bram Stoker had written. They made the movie with a love story, but Mina actually HATED Dracula, he made her skin crawl. They changed up the entire theme of the book, and still put the writers name to it.
In the case of the Noah myth, there is nothing to the story, so, like the original story, men just made it up.
Awaiting the Climax of His Presence
20 Our study of Jesus’ presence should have a direct bearing on our life and our expectations. Jesus urged his followers to stay alert. He provided a sign so that his presence could be recognized, though most would take no note: “As the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.”—Matthew 24:37-39.
21 During the days of Noah, most people of that generation just carried on with their normal affairs. Jesus foretold that it would be the same with “the presence of the Son of man.” The people around Noah might have felt that nothing would happen. You know differently. Those days, which spread over time, led to a climax, “the flood came and swept them all away.” Luke presents a similar account in which Jesus compared “the days of Noah” with “the days of the Son of man.” Jesus admonished: “The same way it will be on that day when the Son of man is to be revealed.”—Luke 17:26-30.
22 All of this takes on special meaning for us because we are living at a time when we recognize the events that Jesus foretold—wars, earthquakes, pestilences, food shortages, and persecution of his disciples. (Matthew 24:7-9; Luke 21:10-12) Such have been in evidence since the history-changing conflict significantly named World War I, though most people treat these as normal parts of history. True Christians, however, sense the meaning of these momentous events, just as alert people understand from the leafing of a fig tree that summer is near. Jesus advised: “In this way you also, when you see these things occurring, know that the kingdom of God is near.”—Luke 21:31.
Lovely – one writing of uncertain authorship and two more from motor-mouth Saul's little tag-along buddy.
Oops, excuuuuse the heck out of me. Of course that all Gospels so just make that three quotes from writings of unknown authorship.
monkeyabeyman
"All of this takes on special meaning for us because we are living at a time when we recognize the events that Jesus foretold—wars, earthquakes, pestilences, food shortages"
All have likely been going on THROUGHOUT history. Do some research so you won't make such foolish statements.
Exactly right. Contrary to what some seem to believe, we live in the era with least famine, "pestilences" and war in the whole of written history. Anywhere in history prior to the 20th century it was rare to live at a time where YOU (not your country) weren't in a war zone. Famine was the norm, not the exception, and epidemics killed one in three people through their (short) lifespans. You had to have many children to have any hope that any of them would see adulthood, and you knew, even if you were rich, there were chances they would all starve to death. With the exception of very specific parts of the world we live in general peace, affluence and good health. And in those specific parts of the world where this is not true things are more or less as they used to be thorough the planet before the 20th century. Jesus wasn't foretelling when he was talking about famine, war and pestilence, he was warning about the things that were going on at his time.
Yet one can not stand on that argument either because society advances.
It stands to reason we would have less wars and live longer from better food and medical advances.
And yet even in America today 1 in 7 children go to bed hungry every night.
When we get to places like Africa and some parts of the middle east and Asia they are still having multiple children hoping a few survive.
And I think that could very well be the message all along. How is it in 2014 people ares till starving. It makes no sense.
"Awaiting the Climax of His Presence"
Get an umbrella.
Goodness. And a room. And I don't want to hear any details afterwards – share that mess with Oprah.
I didn't even know he was breathing hard..
christians have been saying it's the end for 2000 years now.
"...and Bilbo Baggins did smite the dragon with his magical glowing sword..." This remark is just as relevant as your posts and takes less time to read.
Best religious movie was the Poltergeist.
James 2:19
19 You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder
Of course there is more than one god. Even the 10 Commandments admits there are other gods.
Ah, but who are those other Gods.
Is it the golden calf, your earthly possessions, the career or the person who says vote for me..
one24,
Be that as it may, none of those is anywhere as near as twisted and hideous as that YHWH character.
The Bible makes it clear that there is ONE True God..and all others are false gods...the "gods" from the Ten ComMandments are anything that one worships..money, idols, material possessions, etc etc...God is a jealous God..He zealously guards what belongs to Him (us)
And we should take The Babble seriously because?
hotairace: Kermi says it is so than it must be...no arguing with the crazy men, he'll beat you with his delusions.
bully for the bible, kermy.
why should non christians give a fvck what the bible says?
kermit
"The Bible makes it clear that there is ONE True God.."
And he is in good company with the other over 400 "one true gods"
It is funny that you think the bible makes anything clear...40,000 versions of christianity proves the bible makes little clear.
It is clear..you are just ignoranty as to WHY there are that many and that you ASSUME its because of different intepretations of the bible.....you only fool yourself of..first of all...it is clear when using CONTEXT which is something I hardly ever see here..especialy among atheist who attempt to argue their point using the Bible..second.not all denominations are separated by interpretation of the Bible
Thanks for these reviews, but I'll have to skip Noah. As a writer myself I can understand the conflict. I'm not seeing this movie because of the conflicts, but more so because of the bad reviews from people who saw it..
You know what's up Ricky.
And you know where to keep those eyes focus to.
That's all that matters at the end of the day.
Stand tall and keep the faith. Remember, 'the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak'.
Carnality is part of our nature and we can't escape it, but we can find the strength through you know who.
Who??? Zeus? Thor? Odin? The gods and goddesses?
The one that wasn't created by mankind.
So none, considering all are man kinds creation-no evidence to say otherwise!
as far as any can see, all gods were created by men in answer to his own ignorance...a product of imagination.
Don't bother with the one true god garbage either, since there are over 400 of those.
You won't know a God through religion.
You will here about a God through religion the key is at the age of accountability when one deciphers all the information and makes an inform choice.
Listening to either side of the argument doesn't help except to coheres or spread their own belief. In either case if one is trying to convince someone that their point is valid it could very well be doubt on an unconscious mind.
Claiming there is a god when there is zero evidence is misleading and dishonest.
Remember I'm not the one trying to prove to you there is a God, yet you are trying to prove to me there is no God.
No, I'm saying that I do not believe your god claim. You are the one claiming god exists, therefore the burden of proof lies on you.
If I tell you I have a unicorn living in my basement and you say you don't believe me, who owns the burden of proof-the one making the claim the unicorn exists or the one saying they don't believe it exists? That same logic goes for all gods.
A God can only ever exist on a personal level. i.e. in the heart.
So you admit that a god is imagined by the person making the claim then?
I don't know about you , but my heart pumps blood. Otherwise, you are right...gods only exist in the mind.
If you believe it is it then imagined ?
What are you basing your belief off of and why claim it to be true if you admit it is personal?
I don't make the claim that it is true for you or anyone else for that matter.
99.9% never understand it, including even those who call themselves Christians.
one24scale,
"A God can only ever exist on a personal level. i.e. in the heart."
I haven't read all of your posts, so I'm not sure if you put faith in the Old Testament; but it says:
"The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure." Jeremiah 17:9
I don't read the Bible that's better left for the Atheist who still think the Christians live under the old testament and the laws of Moses. It's the standard line, 'the old testament'. Need to get up to speed if they want their argument to have and validity.
It' is quite fun to whatch the circle jerk though between the thumpers and the conpirist.
I don't read the Bible that's better left for the Atheist who still think the Christians live under the old testament and the laws of Moses. It's the standard line, 'the old testament'. Need to get up to speed if they want their argument to have and validity.
It' is quite fun to whatch the circle jerk though between the trumpet players and the conspiracy loons.
Yet any do live by it and many pick and choose from it while claiming the NT did away with it.
I don't so much care that one believes, I care how they use that belief.
oops **any** should have read many
I agree.
Religion has been mankind's greatest curse.
Yes it has been. Some of the greatest atrocities known have happened due to the powerful belief's religions bring forth.
actually making these religious movies is just good business cause christians go to church to hear the same old crap over and over and over again and you know they'll just throw down the dollars to see the same crap on the silver screen, they're so gullible and easy to separate from their money.
lol – very true. someone recently was telling me of the cost their local parish was asking to help with upgrades and i know they haven't gone to church in over a year, but I think they felt it would be a hassle for them to reexamine their automatic payments so they just let things be. i wanted to slap them.
Why, it's a nice write off on your tax's under charity if you have enough assents to be eligible for it. i.e. own your own home, remodeling, repairs etc.
For every dollar I donate to charity I write off 3.
It's the American way.
Pay it forward as they say, cause that so called American dream is only while sleep.
The secular person is as crooked and dishonest as your average church goer. If your life is worth more than a burger flipper or custodian you didn't get there by hard work alone.
True, except this friend indicated that they didn't really believe in supporting expansions to their church.