home
RSS
April 10th, 2014
10:04 AM ET

Study: 'Jesus' wife' fragment not a fake

By Daniel Burke, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor

[twitter-follow screen_name='BurkeCNN']

(CNN) - A team of scientists has concluded that a controversial scrap of papyrus that purportedly quotes Jesus referring to "my wife," is not a fake, according to the Harvard Theological Review.

"A wide range of scientific testing indicates that a papyrus fragment containing the words, 'Jesus said to them, my wife' is an ancient document, dating between the sixth to ninth centuries CE," Harvard Divinity School said in a statement.

Scientists tested the papyrus and the carbon ink, and analyzed the handwriting and grammar, according to Harvard.

Radiocarbon tests conducted at Harvard and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology produced an origination date for the papyrus of 659-859 CE, according to Harvard. MIT also studied the chemical composition of the papyrus and patterns of oxidation.

Other scholars studied the carbon character of the ink and found that it matched samples of papyri from the first to eight century CE, according to Harvard.

"None of the testing has produced any evidence that the fragment is a modern fabrication or forgery," the divinity school said.

At least one scholar sharply disagrees, however, calling the papyrus scrap "patently fake."

Unveiled by Karen King, a Harvard Divinity School historian, in 2012, the scrap has sparked a heated debate over Christian history, archaeological accuracy and the role of women in the church.

The fragment, which is about the size of a business card, contains just 33 words, including: “Jesus said to them, ‘My wife …" and "she will be able to be my disciple." 

Though she dubbed the fragment, "The Gospel of Jesus' Wife," King said that the papyrus does not prove that Jesus was actually married - just that ancient Christians discussed the possibility.

"This gospel fragment provides a reason to reconsider what we thought we knew by asking what the role claims of Jesus's marital status played historically in early Christian controversies over marriage, celibacy, and family," King said.

Other Christians have suggested that Jesus may have been speaking metaphorically in the sentence fragments quoted in the papyrus. Some New Testament writers refer to the church as "the bride of Christ."

King and other scholars said they are equally intrigued by Jesus' mention of a female disciple.

"The main topic of the fragment is to affirm that women who are mothers and wives can be disciples of Jesus—a topic that was hotly debated in early Christianity as celibate virginity increasingly became highly valued," King said.

5 questions and answers about Jesus' 'wife'

The Harvard Theological Review also published on Thursday a sharp-worded rebuttal to King's hypothesis by Leo Depuydt, a professor of Egyptology at Brown University.

"I personally—and I am not sure whether I share this feeling with anyone—experience a certain incredulity pertaining to how something that is at first sight so patently fake could be so totally blown out of proportion," Depuydt writes.

Depuydt's criticism centers on the fact that the papyrus scrap contains a grammatical error in Coptic - one that mirrors a similar miscue in the non-canonical Gospel of Thomas.

The chances that two ancient works would have the same mistake are minuscule, the scholar said, strongly suggesting that the author of the"Jesus' wife" scrap copied from the Gospel of Thomas.

“As a forgery, it is bad to the point of being farcical or fobbish," Depuydt told the Boston Globe. "I don’t buy the argument that this is sophisticated. I think it could be done in an afternoon by an undergraduate student.”

The Vatican's newspaper has also called the papyrus fragment a fake. “Substantial reasons would lead us to conclude that the papyrus is actually a clumsy counterfeit," L'Osservatore Romano, said in an editorial in 2012. 

Vatican newspaper calls fragment referring to Jesus' wife 'a fake'

King and Harvard acknowledge that "nothing is known about the discovery of the fragment." King has said it was given to her by an unnamed donor. 

"All the known data about its origin and circulation need to be publicly disclosed and thus made available for scholarly discussionas is the norm in the handling of manuscripts. Is there some reason we cannot just be told?" Depuydt said.

- CNN Religion Editor

Filed under: Belief • Bible • Christianity • Church • History • Jesus

soundoff (2,539 Responses)
  1. Ally

    It's 2014 people. Really, fuck your stupid Jesus stories and get with the times.

    April 12, 2014 at 8:15 pm |
    • blessed137

      I forgive and love you ally. Jesus

      April 12, 2014 at 8:24 pm |
      • blessed137

        No im not Jesus but he lives within me and gives me the power to love those that curse me.

        April 12, 2014 at 8:26 pm |
        • realbuckyball

          So ... you have a multiple personality disorder. Get help. You are mentally ill blessed 137.
          You actually think YOU speak for the gods ?
          Be sure the nurse knows where you are for bedtime pills.

          April 12, 2014 at 9:14 pm |
        • Akira

          Well, Ally really didn't curse you...

          April 12, 2014 at 9:27 pm |
      • fortheloveofellipsis

        "I forgive and love you ally. Jesus"

        She says in a honeyed voice which does not in the least conceal her arrogant contempt...

        April 13, 2014 at 10:06 am |
    • kermit4jc

      sheesh..why the anger towards Jesus and stuff? live ane let live...why does it bother YOU that I believe in Jesus and all?

      April 13, 2014 at 2:27 am |
      • midwest rail

        If only contemporary evangelicals WOULD live and let live...

        April 13, 2014 at 3:19 am |
      • sam stone

        Because those who believe often try to legislate their beliefs into our secular laws, Kermy

        April 13, 2014 at 5:02 am |
    • frankbeattys

      Why? What is wrong with treating other people the way you want to be treated?

      April 13, 2014 at 3:41 am |
      • doobzz

        Ask a Native American.

        April 13, 2014 at 2:51 pm |
  2. blessed137

    I stand on God's Word and His standard of moral and immoral. Im not tolerant to anyones sinful lifestyle regardless of being gay or straight. I do not criticize others because im in need of Jesus. I would never be like oh get away from me your gay

    April 12, 2014 at 8:14 pm |
    • Ally

      Why do you "need" your jesus baby blanket? Weak and wimpy or something? Grow up and face reality. There's obviously no divine Jesus and never was.

      It's 2014 people. Really, fuck your stupid Jesus stories and get with the times.

      April 12, 2014 at 8:20 pm |
      • santonioo

        Seems you belong to the lineage of the Jews that ignorantly failed to see the Prophesy of the their revered Prophets happening before their eyes.

        April 13, 2014 at 7:52 am |
        • Doris

          Some people just avoid spam. It's a time sucker-upper.

          April 13, 2014 at 9:56 am |
        • Akira

          Wow! Anti-Semitic AND homophobic! Bet if I keep reading I'll hit a trifecta of bigotry by you, santon.

          April 13, 2014 at 11:50 am |
    • realbuckyball

      No one cares what your opinions are about your gods. You are a fruitcake.

      April 12, 2014 at 9:15 pm |
    • Akira

      No, actually, judging from your post below, even though you may say you wouldn't, I absolutely do get the impression that you would tell gays they are going to hell and for them to get away from you.

      April 12, 2014 at 9:33 pm |
      • santonioo

        Don't even talk about gays here. There are already another mutated species of animal (not worthy to be associated with the human race) by the order of nature.

        April 13, 2014 at 8:04 am |
        • Doris

          Aww – when did you find out you had BTS, santi? (Butthurt Troll Syndrome)

          April 13, 2014 at 9:53 am |
        • santonioo

          I expected you to be more intelligent that what you are showing, I mean no disrespect. Look beyond your nose into the horizon...

          April 13, 2014 at 9:56 am |
        • Doris

          Oh really, santi. Well then, let's talk about this. Where did you receive your information regarding "the order of nature", santi?

          April 13, 2014 at 9:58 am |
        • fortheloveofellipsis

          Boy, the Crischin Luv(tm) just absolutely drips off you, dunnit sanctimonio?...

          April 13, 2014 at 10:08 am |
        • santonioo

          Speak in plain words...

          April 13, 2014 at 10:09 am |
        • santonioo

          Follow this link and be educated http://www.freechristianillustrations.com/defending.html

          May 1, 2014 at 10:01 am |
        • Doris

          Ah, so santi is not interested in answering questions, today I see. Having a headache today, santi? Applying Gullible's Travels directly to your forehead not working so well?

          April 13, 2014 at 10:16 am |
        • santonioo

          Refresh your slow internet connection...

          April 13, 2014 at 10:19 am |
        • Doris

          For your poor little butthurt convenience, I'll repeat the question, santi:

          Where did you receive your information regarding "the order of nature"?

          April 13, 2014 at 10:27 am |
        • Akira

          santon,
          I guess it needs to be pointed out that I was addressing the OP, who brought it up in the first place.

          The rest of your post was rubbish.

          April 13, 2014 at 11:47 am |
        • santonioo

          Tell that to Doris and fortheloveofellipsis.... By the way, for you to take those responses as rubbish shows the level of your IQ. So pathetic.

          April 13, 2014 at 11:53 am |
        • santonioo

          Follow this link and be educated http://www.freechristianillustrations.com/defending.html

          May 1, 2014 at 10:00 am |
        • Doris

          "By the way, for you to take those responses as rubbish shows the level of your IQ. So pathetic. "

          Wow, santi – so impressive. (eyeroll) Now let's see, I believe you were about to answer the question:

          "Where did you receive your information regarding "the order of nature"?"

          April 13, 2014 at 12:07 pm |
        • santonioo

          It is shocking to tell you that the two answers I have for you have not been pasted in the discussion. It seems some people somewhere are making choices of what comes up and not.... I thought there should be freedom of expression here but it's shocking to find the opposite. Hoping this message will deliver too....

          April 13, 2014 at 12:38 pm |
        • santonioo

          Read for yourself from this link http://freechristianillustrations.com/defending.html

          May 1, 2014 at 9:58 am |
        • igaftr

          santo
          You have been stopped by the automatic word filter. You don't actually think that someone instantly read your post ( and all of them) and instantly blocked it, do you?
          Likely there is a combination of letters that are auto blocked.
          for example, you cannot use the word const!tution without modifying it because there is a t!t in the word.
          It is not a conspiracy.

          April 13, 2014 at 12:53 pm |
    • meatheist

      You stand on god's word? That's a pile of rubbish you are standing on. Do you expect others to stand there with you on that stinking pile of bovine fecal boli?

      April 12, 2014 at 11:14 pm |
    • James XCIX

      blessed137 – "Im not tolerant to anyones sinful lifestyle "

      According to fundamentalist Christian thinking, which you appear to endorse, everyone sins and all sins are equally abhorrent to your god, so nobody's lifestyle would be any more displeasing than any other lifestyle.

      April 12, 2014 at 11:19 pm |
    • sam stone

      You stand on the words of Iron Age sheep herders, blessed137

      April 13, 2014 at 5:03 am |
    • doobzz

      " Im not tolerant to anyones sinful lifestyle regardless of being gay or straight. I do not criticize others because im in need of Jesus."

      I guess you didn't notice that you contradicted yourself right there.

      April 13, 2014 at 10:52 am |
  3. blessed137

    As for hating gays. I cannot speak for other people. True there is alot of hatred both on the part of believers and nonbelievers and other religions. That is not where I stand. I love all people. I am not commanded to be tolerant of sin however I am commanded to love. Jesus is a friend of sinners. He lead the lost, the ones who recieved him, from darkness to light. Death to Life. I treat gays with the same love, kindness, and respect that I would show anyone else. I am not for killing gays or telling them God hates them.

    April 12, 2014 at 7:46 pm |
    • sam stone

      where do you stand on allowing them the same rights as others?

      April 12, 2014 at 7:49 pm |
      • sam stone

        will you please answer the question?

        April 12, 2014 at 8:06 pm |
        • sam stone

          Apparently not. So, it would appear that blessed137 is yet another cowardly christian

          April 13, 2014 at 5:06 am |
    • TruthPrevails1

      You say you don't judge but yet say they are sinning...slight bit of hypocrisy and bigotry there. It is so nice to see that as every day goes by, people like you who speak like this are being pushed back and shown to be wrong.

      April 13, 2014 at 5:42 am |
      • blessed137

        I didnt say i dont judge according to God's Standard, i said I dont criticize. Big difference

        April 13, 2014 at 10:51 am |
        • igaftr

          137
          You have no idea what "gods standard" is. All you have is what MEN say god said...big difference.

          April 13, 2014 at 11:02 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          blessed: That was directed at kermi, not you. However judging is not something to be proud of. Judging and criticizing are pretty much the same thing but you'd know that if you bothered to pick up a dictionary instead of making up definitions to suit the delusions. Gods standard only applies to those gullible enough to think it exists...not all of us are so weak that we need imaginary friends that are nasty and hateful.

          April 13, 2014 at 11:18 am |
  4. Salero21

    Ok my frenemies atheists; are you ready for another quiz?

    Here it is. Answer as best as you possibly can, which of course is the worst that mankind has to offer.

    How big is the Evidence of the Total Stupidity of Atheism?
    1) As big as earth.
    2) As big as the sun.
    3) As big as the solar system.
    4) A big as the Universe.
    5) All of the above.

    April 12, 2014 at 7:39 pm |
    • realbuckyball

      There is no evidence for the absence of belief. Is there evidence for teapots orbiting the sun ? You idiot questions are worse than asking that. But we do get that you NEED to think in those infantile ways.

      April 12, 2014 at 9:17 pm |
    • TruthPrevails1

      I say you need medicated...you your friend kermi; blessed and any other dolt who thinks that they have evidence for gods and think that the hate you spew is love.

      April 13, 2014 at 5:43 am |
    • gulliblenomore

      Wow...I didn't realize what a total jerk-off this guy salero is! Not only are his/her posts completely non-sensical and incoherent, but glaringly stupid as well!

      April 14, 2014 at 3:49 pm |
  5. blessed137

    Women have an heir to the promise...means this: The promise of eternal life is given to all who believe in the name of Jesus Christ.

    April 12, 2014 at 7:32 pm |
    • sam stone

      Do you seriously desire ETERNAL LIFE?

      April 12, 2014 at 7:35 pm |
      • blessed137

        Yes I choose life. It is very heartbreaking for me to know that many will choose death. It doesnt have to be that way but sadly there are those who have not and those who will not repent receive Christ and be forgiven and have the gift of eternal life with God. Which is why im not suprised by all the disbelief i read. I am here to share my faith and give a biblical response to the topics cnn has posted. Some are sincere and generally are asking me questions because they desire to seek the truth, others just want to argue and waste my time. They act like the foolish kids in class that distract other students who are trying to learn.

        April 12, 2014 at 7:58 pm |
        • sam stone

          "It doesnt have to be that way"

          According to your opinion

          April 12, 2014 at 8:02 pm |
        • sam stone

          blessed: this is a sincere question. if god knows our choices before we make them, and god cannot be wrong, how does free will apply?

          April 12, 2014 at 8:05 pm |
        • blessed137

          Look around you. People choose everyday, to follow God or not to. Are you not doing right now what you choose? Are you a robot programmed to keep talking to me.

          April 12, 2014 at 8:18 pm |
        • blessed137

          According to God's Word. I choose to live by you choose not to. another example of free will

          April 12, 2014 at 8:20 pm |
        • realbuckyball

          Modern neuro-science has proven there is no 'free will" Human decisions are made before humans are fully conscious of them. That cannot be 'free will". No one who honestly does not buy religion nonsense can possibly "choose" to believe it. It's dishonest. Is your god SO dumb, she wouldn't know that ?

          April 12, 2014 at 9:22 pm |
        • sam stone

          Okay, blessed137, I will state this is simply as possible

          If I APPARENTLY have two choices, A or B, and god KNOWS I am going to choose B, what are the chances that he (being omniscient and all) will be shown wrong by me choosing A?

          I expect you to dance around this

          April 13, 2014 at 5:14 am |
        • sam stone

          Here is another challenge for you to avoid, blessed137

          If belief is a choice, try really, really, really hard to believe that Fozzie Bear is the son of god. Meditate on it, pray on it, whatever.....dedicate hours on end this task. If you cannot believe it, why not? Do you find it impossible to believe in something you find unbelievable?

          April 13, 2014 at 5:19 am |
        • sam stone

          come out and play, blessed137....

          April 13, 2014 at 9:58 am |
    • realbuckyball

      "Eternal life" is a non-Biblical idea. It's also a nonsensical idea. It requires spacetime. There is no spacetime outside this universe. Oops. The Jews in the OT did not believe in "eternal life" The Christians invented that concept much later. Sheol was not heaven or hell. You really should take a Bible class blessed137. You know nothing about your cult.

      April 12, 2014 at 9:20 pm |
      • oreolu

        Could you please point us to the scientific experiment(s) that "disprove the existence of free will"? Perhaps you could also enlighten us on what Jews mean when they speak of the Resurrection. Thank you.

        April 13, 2014 at 3:33 am |
  6. Salero21

    Man oh man!! If the Stupidity of atheism/evolutionism and idolatry was a Fuel, it will power Hell Forevermore. Oh no wait... as a matter of Fact it will do just that!!

    April 12, 2014 at 7:32 pm |
    • realbuckyball

      Not one academic center in the entire world questions Evolution. Thanks for demonstrating your utter and complete ignorance.

      April 12, 2014 at 9:24 pm |
      • santonioo

        Hey, you are waiting for a publication that is against evolution ? If the theory of evolution is true and active, why haven't we seen an animal naturally evolving into another species without scientific or human interference. At least, many hundreds of thousands and millennia of years should have been completed in our days or generation that an evolution from a species to another should have taken place. The Holy Bible spoke about the creation of the world long before the theory of evolution came to being. It's time for Critically unbiased thinking into everything around us

        April 13, 2014 at 8:20 am |
        • Doris

          Lol – don't you mean sanonioo, ASS? (Armchair Scientist Self-appointed)

          April 13, 2014 at 9:47 am |
        • santonioo

          What's sanonioo ?

          April 13, 2014 at 9:53 am |
        • Doris

          Ah yes – the typo – santonioo, of course...

          April 13, 2014 at 9:59 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Anyone asking those questions has somehow been failed by the education system. Basic evolution course work wonders for the uneducated...youtube has a few of them

          April 13, 2014 at 10:03 am |
        • santonioo

          Education that brainwashes you to be lost in your confusion or the ones that edifices you and brings peace with you

          April 13, 2014 at 10:06 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          What? How is teaching fact that is backed with evidence brainwashing exactly?
          I am sorry the education system has failed you.
          Evolution is fact, creationism not so much. There is a reason evolution can be taught in schools and creationism can't...think hard on that-the reasons should be obvious.

          April 13, 2014 at 11:12 am |
        • santonioo

          Not all things under the sky can be understood in a grasp or easily contained in the little brain within the human skull. That is why we keep discovering gradually to understand little out of the whole. It will continue so till we die and by then we will have a full understanding of all that seems incomprehensible now. The animal exists on its own but all the cells (contained within its organs and blood) work individually and collectively to make it be alive. Evolution is a fallacy to quench the thirst for an alternative answer. Mind you, education is meant to expose you to statement of findings... Reasoning as to which is right or wrong among all is solely yours...

          April 13, 2014 at 11:31 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Evolution is not a fallacy you fool! There is more to support it than there is the creation story in the bible..stop deluding your life with that lie.

          April 13, 2014 at 1:33 pm |
        • santonioo

          Don't take it soo personal by calling me a fool. This shows how weak you are. How I wish you live up to the username you bear... Or are you an hypocrite ? If you want to hear the truth... Do more of listening than talking...

          April 13, 2014 at 2:12 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          You're the one calling evolution a fallacy, yet in doing so you deny the overwhelming amount of evidence that supports it. That is typical of a fool!
          As my alias states, truth prevails. Creationism has been proven to be bunk, evolution has been proven true. Evolution can be taught as fact in schools, creationism can't be. I'll go with the experts instead of an outdated 2000 year old book that has been proven to be full of fallacies. Remain ignorant if you wish but your ignorance does not change the facts...you are part Ape.

          April 13, 2014 at 2:34 pm |
        • santonioo

          If you have believed in fallacies made by men and become this blind, how much more true your conclusion would have been if you critically look into nature and it's features... At your own time, your Saul will become Paul... But for now you are perishing because you lack knowledge... You are not the first and definitely you won't be the last. Your time of conversion from Saul to Paul is on its way. Even if it's gonna be the last moments of your earthly life, I hope you are humble enough to accept it then. It's then you will experience that truth prevails.

          April 13, 2014 at 2:47 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          You mean like the stories of the bible??? Those are all written by man, nothing to point to them being written by anyone else.
          I only have an earthly life, as do you! There simply is no justification for believing there is anything more-no evidence outside of Gullible Travels (aka the bible) to state anything more.
          My brother Ape-man, please open your mind, actually give that book a good read and you too will soon join our understanding of your vicious vindictive hateful god...life is so much better an a none-believer-you actually care more about the only life you get!

          April 13, 2014 at 2:55 pm |
        • santonioo

          Check this link and see for yourself... The supremacy of God as creator http://www.freechristianillustrations.com/defending.html

          May 1, 2014 at 9:56 am |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Very good...you're pointing me to a site that is biased about the existence of god and expect me to accept that? Of course they're going to support it! It's at the very core of what hold them together!!
          How very arrogant and ignorant of you to think that proves anything.

          May 1, 2014 at 10:04 am |
        • santonioo

          If you are afraid of the extent of your ignorance, then you can talk like that...

          May 1, 2014 at 10:05 am |
        • gulliblenomore

          Santonioo....are you willing to go onto an atheist site to learn how god doesn't exist? If so, I have some links for you.

          May 1, 2014 at 10:17 am |
        • santonioo

          Feel free

          May 1, 2014 at 10:17 am |
        • gulliblenomore

          I'm not that stupid....I know you have no intention of reading anything from an atheist site.

          May 1, 2014 at 10:19 am |
        • santonioo

          I'm not like you... Why must you judge me based on your own limitations and inabilities... I don't shut myself from information even when it's not interesting.

          May 1, 2014 at 10:27 am |
        • gulliblenomore

          Santonioo....then I am guessing you must believe in evolution since there is overwhelming evidence of it. If not, this conversation is over.

          May 1, 2014 at 10:32 am |
        • kermit4jc

          Santonioo….then I am guessing you must believe in evolution since there is overwhelming evidence of it. If not, this conversation is over.-> soIM guesing youre pretty closed minded and bigoted? that youre intolerant?

          May 1, 2014 at 12:09 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Unlike you I live in fear of very little. You live in accordance to the words of one book or things that direct you right back to that book. I live in accordance to the evidence that we are being provided on an updated basis. While you have decided your bible gives you all the answers, I have decided there is so much more to know.

          Science is questions that may never be answered; religion is answers that may never be questioned.
          It really does stop you from needing to think...in your world it will always be god had a reason for it-thus stopping all questions. In my world, I keep seeking for answers...so much more enlightening than the days where I shared your absurd beliefs.

          I'm guessing that given your love of that book you then support slavery; oppression of women; oppression of LGBT; child abuse; incest; forcing a rape victim to marry her attacker; no eating pork; no eating shrimp. How very immoral and that's in the book you depend on to live!

          May 1, 2014 at 10:24 am |
        • santonioo

          Hope you went through the link. And based on what you said... To me, Science is an aura to research, evaluate and appreciate the existence of the Designer of creations which is God. Religion initially (and even now) has questions that have been asked by wiser men before our generation. And answers to such questions are ever more green than when it was given. No matter how wise you think and how knowledgable you become, you must find God in everything that exist. All is for our own good except if abused. Don't look at what other do with their religiousity. Why not seek to follow the leader and not following a follower. Since you can read, why not pick up the Bible and read through all the pages On your own. And conclude based on your own experience and not on what you heard or on other's comments. The Bible is as Spiritual and as historic. It's from time immemorial that people have not believed in God. Even if the dead should rise and attest to the existence of God... Some will not believe until they see with their own eyes... Blessed and peaceful are those who do not see nor understand and yet believe. It is by free will you chose your stand. God is like a gentleman that won't intrigue on your privacy. He can't come to you without your consent. Only when you are ready to know Him, then You will know he's been waiting patiently for you (one of His creation)

          May 1, 2014 at 11:00 am |
        • igaftr

          sontonioo
          " why haven't we seen an animal naturally evolving into another species without scientific or human interference."

          We have. There are fossil records and DNA .For one example, look at the animal Tiktaalik. We can see the first known instance of the bone structure in all mammals of the wrist and elbows. Our DNA leads right back to it. This is the first known example of a fish that walked on land. The wrist was very important since it allowed the animal to turn it's "hand" flat to the ground to support it's weight. It is the first animal that we know of the could do a push up.

          Don't deny the evidence that exists simply because you have not researched it.

          April 13, 2014 at 10:08 am |
        • santonioo

          Has the fish evolved further from the fossil appearance into a better recent day appearance ? Have they further discovered the evolutionary stages of the fish to present day human ? ...

          April 13, 2014 at 10:18 am |
        • igaftr

          santonioo
          "Has the fish evolved further from the fossil appearance into a better recent day appearance ? Have they further discovered the evolutionary stages of the fish to present day human ? ...

          Yes. through other fossil records and tracing trhough DNA. You have an inner fish.

          April 13, 2014 at 10:20 am |
        • santonioo

          Don't be deceived, every animal is a stand alone creation. There may be similarities, but they are different in their anatomy specification with no room for crossover into another. If evolution is to be justified, every living thing should be at the same stage of development. No species should have been left behind in development. But different fishes are seen to uniquely exist. If there is truly evolution, there wouldn't have been the word extinction; other lower species would have evolved to fill in the gap. Fossils would have been irrelevant because a sample species will still be alive

          April 13, 2014 at 10:43 am |
        • igaftr

          sant
          "Don't be deceived, every animal is a stand alone creation."
          Creation is your own deception.
          The rest of your post is completely baseless showing you have no understanding of science at all. Sad really that you think that everything should be at the same stage of evolution, when a huge variety of factors, that differ in variuos locations, are in play. What effects one aninal or plant, does not necessarily effect another.

          Put your baseless book down. Too much of it has been proven wrong to take the remainder seriously.
          Creation is a cop out.

          April 13, 2014 at 10:49 am |
        • santonioo

          To every cap, there is a maker; to every word, there is a writer; to every machine, there is a maker; and to every life, there is a creator.

          April 13, 2014 at 11:04 am |
        • Doris

          OK, very good, santi. Now put your crayons away and wash up for lunch.

          April 13, 2014 at 11:15 am |
        • santonioo

          Thank you

          April 13, 2014 at 11:31 am |
        • igaftr

          santo
          " and to every life, there is a creator."

          You were doing well until you jumped the logic train. Since we do not know exactly what life is, we also do not know how life originated. What you said, is pure speculation with no base. Nothing but belief.

          April 13, 2014 at 2:56 pm |
        • santonioo

          " Since we do not know exactly what life is, we also do not know how life originated." So why is it so difficult to accept what was written about it the origin of life. So many things exist in this world that the conclusions to their true nature are mere speculations. Some truths are incomprehensible. If life evolved from a single cell, where did that cell came from ? Science can't factually say but to speculate... We still have a long way to go to unravel the mysteries of the world and it's existence.

          April 13, 2014 at 3:20 pm |
        • igaftr

          santo
          We do not know does not imply any "creator" which implies some sort of sentient ent!ty.

          We do not know means we do not know. A "creator" is pure speculation with NOTHING to back it up. Doing anything based on your creator hypothesis is illogical. There could be a "creator" , but just as much evidence to indicate we are in the Matrix, or any of an infinite number of possibilities. Your bible was written by ignorant men, with no indication of any external forces invloved.

          April 13, 2014 at 3:26 pm |
        • santonioo

          Visit this link and see for yourself http://www.freechristianillustrations.com/defending.html

          May 1, 2014 at 9:55 am |
        • igaftr

          santo
          How is sending me to a site with coloring book pictures meant to indoctinate and brainwash children supposed to carry any weight?
          All that is there is the myth continuing to be bottle fed to children. I am an adult.

          May 1, 2014 at 10:36 am |
        • santonioo

          Be open and humble like a child... Then wisdom will dwell with you. Seems you only concluded by reading the web address... If so that's pathetic.

          May 1, 2014 at 11:03 am |
        • igaftr

          no santo, I went to the site, even though your link does not work. with the defending.html at the end, it does not go directly to where you want it to.
          It is a site designed for the brainwashing and indoctrination of children into your belief system using cartoons.

          It is just propaganda. It offers nothing as far as validating the belief. It is meant to just continue propagating the myth.

          May 1, 2014 at 11:15 am |
        • santonioo

          If you really wanna read it from the homepage address, delete the index word and type defending ... Or add defending.html to the home page

          May 1, 2014 at 11:20 am |
        • gulliblenomore

          Iga....don't do it....it's a trap! Once you read it, you will instantly believe in god!

          May 1, 2014 at 11:23 am |
        • santonioo

          If that is true, then The Bible is a True Living Word of God. That means the Bible can convince you better than the book or theories you believe in.

          May 1, 2014 at 11:26 am |
        • gulliblenomore

          Santonioo....didn't they teach you sarcasm in bible school?

          May 1, 2014 at 11:35 am |
        • santonioo

          http://freechristianillustrations.com/defending.html

          May 1, 2014 at 11:23 am |
        • igaftr

          yes santo, I know how to operate a computer.
          What point is there to having me look at comic books? They only perpetuate the myths, they do not add anything as far as validating the belief.
          You have me look at story books...why?
          You tell me to be humble like a child, let me have you try to stop looking at childish things.
          Have you ever read a book with no pictures in it?

          May 1, 2014 at 11:30 am |
        • santonioo

          Just read the content of the page, please.

          May 1, 2014 at 11:31 am |
        • otoh2

          santonioo,

          I'm sure that the authors of your recommended web site spent a good deal of time putting it together and that they are sincere in their effort. Fact is, though, it is trite, dismissive and simplistic and it offers nothing that we don't see discussed here on the Belief Blog all the time.

          May 1, 2014 at 12:14 pm |
    • TruthPrevails1

      You dolt, no such thing as /evolutionism. Ignorance is bliss-isn't it?

      April 13, 2014 at 5:48 am |
    • fortheloveofellipsis

      "Man oh man!! If the Stupidity of atheism/evolutionism and idolatry was a Fuel, it will power Hell Forevermore. Oh no wait... as a matter of Fact it will do just that!!"

      ...Salero says with excited drool dripping off his chin at the thought of other human beings facing eternal torment. Do you happen to be into BD/SM, Salero?...

      April 13, 2014 at 10:14 am |
  7. Salero21

    Man oh man!! If the Evidence for the Total Stupidity of atheism was a liquid, it could replace all of the water in the planet. That's why such Stupidity will be Forevermore.

    April 12, 2014 at 7:29 pm |
  8. Vic

    I read several articles on this and would like to share things you may not know about this find and the recent tests performed on it:

    The papyrus fragment of concern came to light when the owner who remains anonymous contacted Harvard Professor Karen King in 2011 to examine the piece that he bought in 1999 from a collector who acquired it in the 1960's from East Germany at the time.

    The papyrus fragment is cut in the size of a business card from a larger piece of manuscript. The cut is a modern-day one.

    Aside from the age of the papyrus, the conventional tests cannot be applied to determine the age of the ink for that would destroy the fragment, they can only determine the type of the ink through Microscopic Imaging; therefore, researchers are still working on other methods to test the age of the ink, hence when the text was written.

    It seems like there was a copy of a handwritten note with this find about being the only of its kind suggesting that Jesus Christ had a wife; that note was never made public, which raises high suspicion.

    Last but not least is this:

    It was shocking to me to find out that the correlation between this find and the Gospel of Thomas —Apocryphal— was already made and used as a rebuttal. I read a complete English Translation from Coptic of the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas and noticed the similarities in the writing style on this papyrus fragment as it was published.

    Early on:
    http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/04/10/study-jesus-wife-fragment-not-a-fake/comment-page-11/#comment-2988069

    April 12, 2014 at 2:37 pm |
    • doobzz

      "Scientists tested the papyrus and the carbon ink, and analyzed the handwriting and grammar, according to Harvard.

      Other scholars studied the carbon character of the ink and found that it matched samples of papyri from the first to eight century CE, according to Harvard."

      Both the papyrus and the ink were tested.

      April 12, 2014 at 3:13 pm |
      • Vic

        They matched the papyrus and ink with ancient ones. They determined the composition of the ink using Microscopic Imaging but they cannot test the age of the ink using conventional method for that would destroy the fragment. Since they cannot determine the age of the ink yet, they cannot determine when the text was written.

        April 12, 2014 at 3:24 pm |
        • doobzz

          That seems contrary to this report, but I'm so over the whole thing that I don't even care to research any further.

          Makes no difference to me if the mythical Jesus had a mythical wife.

          April 12, 2014 at 4:17 pm |
        • MidwestKen

          @Vic,
          citation please.

          April 12, 2014 at 8:28 pm |
      • Vic

        I take no pleasure in saying this but I'll share it for the record:

        According to some reports, the analysis of the Coptic writing on this find revealed novice mistakes and typos of modern-day nature, hence the writer does not know Coptic well and is modern.

        That reminds me of what Dan Rather of CBS did concerning President George W. Bush.

        April 12, 2014 at 3:33 pm |
        • Helga Pataki

          I hate to say it? But you have reading comprehension issues.
          It was found not to be a modern day forgery.

          Fan Rather's stupidity should not be repeated.

          April 12, 2014 at 4:04 pm |
        • MidwestKen

          "According to some reports..."

          Cite your sources, please.

          April 12, 2014 at 8:29 pm |
  9. zendraxus

    "Woman have a right to the heir of the promise."

    I know this might be your own personal line, but similar lines are laced throughout religious texts, they sound sage and cryptic to the believers – but if you ask them what this and the other lines actually mean you would get an smug "You wouldn't understand"

    "And as for slavery, those without Christ are a slave to sin. God does not change."

    And here we have the danger of religion wrapped up nice and neat. Worldwide, we have this god's middlemen making up what that 'sin' is. In the wrong place and time this can get you death for arbitrary infractions: religious police discovered a Sikh who made the bad call of taking a nip in an ally way in Kabul just after the American arrival....they beheaded him before the American security could get to him....for taking a bloody drink....
    And Christians had the same tendencies a couple centuries ago - and could relapse if allowed.

    April 12, 2014 at 2:31 pm |
    • zendraxus

      blown reply
      .....

      April 12, 2014 at 2:32 pm |
    • transframer

      Sorry, I don't understand the relationship between your quote and the example (which was from an Islamic country). Can you explain?

      April 12, 2014 at 3:10 pm |
      • zendraxus

        Was a reply to Blessed137 on pervious page.

        Who determines this Sin he refers to? does Blessed137 get to decide? do you? how do you determine what your God wants?

        and before you claim Christianity is different than Islam both religions have the same base- Judaism – same prophets, same God...just a different spin.

        April 12, 2014 at 3:19 pm |
        • transframer

          I don't know what Blessed137 said and I can't comment. But regarding Islam and Christianity they are indeed very different, even if they have the same root.

          April 12, 2014 at 3:31 pm |
        • zendraxus

          yes some of the names differ in importance – jesus is just a prophet in Islam, a messiah in Christianity. But in actual history both religions claim the exact kind of authority over not just their adherents – but can pass judgment on people that want to be free of their insane rules. Both claim to be religions of peace and love...both are drenched in blood.

          April 12, 2014 at 3:40 pm |
        • transframer

          It's much more than just some words. For starters Jesus in Islam is not Jesus in Christianity at all. But don't take my word for it, read for example the book "God Is Not One: The Eight Rival Religions That Run the World" by Stephen Prothero, who is not a Christian

          April 12, 2014 at 3:47 pm |
        • zendraxus

          Transframer,

          you need to understand something – I don't care to get bogged down in why Islam is wrong, or that you think Islam completely blew their take on your Messiah....I don't believe in any of that.

          I am worried about the SoB that stands up on national tv saying its god's will that we invade a country (Iraq) , I am worried about the guys that can cut you head off be cause they don't like your take on god and use their religion to justify it (Islamic fanatics). I am worried about the guy who thinks killing doctors is saving a 'child' (pre 16 week fetus) ...I am worried about the simple fools that think carrying out the will of conniving old men will get them some kind of grand reward in heaven (9/11) – never bothering once to ask if its so grand why aren't these old goats leading the charge.

          All For Nothing ... all for something that has never had one shred of proof and never will.

          April 12, 2014 at 4:07 pm |
        • transframer

          I understand you are worried of all of these and you are right, they are all bad things. But they are not caused by Christianity.

          April 12, 2014 at 4:13 pm |
        • zendraxus

          now that is impressive:))

          April 12, 2014 at 4:18 pm |
        • Helga Pataki

          IMO, Bush was an abomination and used God as a shield to justify his heinous crimes; and he knew it would be an appeal to emotion if he DID evoke God's name as a battle cry.
          And it worked.
          I hope it never does again.
          I hope Congress is smarter next time.
          I hope the American people are smarter next time.

          April 12, 2014 at 4:23 pm |
        • Doris

          "But they are not caused by Christianity."

          Well, when your religion is a moving target, split over 41,000 different ways, of course it could never be the cause of anything bad.....

          April 12, 2014 at 4:26 pm |
        • zendraxus

          yes- exploiting the religious majority to push the war. At least make them work to come up with a good excuse to send our young people off to war:(

          April 12, 2014 at 4:30 pm |
        • zendraxus

          Well, when your religion is a moving target, split over 41,000 different ways, of course it could never be the cause of anything bad.....

          And then there is this....a sign in Times Square in 40ft neon couldn't make it clearer that something is seriously wrong with the dogma.

          April 12, 2014 at 4:40 pm |
        • transframer

          I agree with you about Bush and about exploiting religious beliefs. Any good thing can be transformed in a bad thing in many ways, it doesn't prove anything.

          April 12, 2014 at 5:23 pm |
  10. colin31714

    Pretty much all religion is silly. Even where it is built on earlier faiths. It rarely improves them, it just takes them to new levels of absurdity.

    The belief that an infinitely old, all-knowing sky-god, powerful enough to create the entire Universe and its billions of galaxies, chose a group of wandering Jews in Bronze Age Palestine as his people out of the approximately 200 million people then alive on Earth, and promised them a home if they obeyed 612 rules, most of which concerned local diet, farm life, rituals, trading and s.ex = Judaism.

    Judaism PLUS a belief that the same god impregnated a virgin with himself, to give birth to himself, so he could sacrifice himself to himself to negate the Original Sin of a couple we now all know never existed = Christianity.

    Christianity PLUS a belief that the secrets of the Universe were revealed to a failed conman and treasure hunter in upstate New York, that performing a ritual in a temple in Salt Lake City will cause dead people to be admitted into a happy after-life kingdom and that an Israeli tribe colonized America = Mormonism.

    I guess Mormonism takes the gold medal for silly, childish beliefs. One can imagine Brigham Young standing on a pedestal accepting the gold and humbly proclaiming, “If my beliefs are even more ridiculous than others, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants.”

    April 12, 2014 at 1:13 pm |
    • otoh2

      Excellent, colin!

      I'll bet that you could also come up with a good one for the other famous (infamous?) offshoot of the Middle Eastern theistic fantasy - Islam.

      April 12, 2014 at 1:24 pm |
      • colin31714

        Judaism PLUS the beliefs that women are second class citizens, that Jesus was born talking like Buddha and that the above being whispered the secrets of life, death, the Universe and everything to a Seventh Century violent pedophile in a cave = Islam.

        April 12, 2014 at 1:32 pm |
    • transframer

      Christianity is only this: love your neighbor.

      April 12, 2014 at 2:38 pm |
      • Helga Pataki

        Sure. Such a pity that no Christians follow that simple edict, whim disparaging atheists line you did below.

        April 12, 2014 at 2:51 pm |
        • transframer

          Maybe, but they try. They pray to god to help them do this and acknowledge their weakness.

          April 12, 2014 at 3:04 pm |
      • TruthPrevails1

        Is it love when you tell LGBT that they are sinning? Is it love when you tell a woman not to use birth control or abort? Is it love when you tell someone that due to their disbelief they will suffer eternal torture in some afterlife?

        April 12, 2014 at 3:06 pm |
        • transframer

          Of course

          April 12, 2014 at 3:11 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Wow, that's a very strange definition of love! How sad that you have been taught that hate and love are one in the same as long as it is stated so in your immoral guide book (aka the bible).

          April 12, 2014 at 3:19 pm |
        • transframer

          So, where is the hate?

          April 12, 2014 at 3:23 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          The hate is saying that they are sinning when in fact they are not doing harm.

          April 12, 2014 at 4:59 pm |
        • Doris

          I'm sure traveling to Africa and inciting people to kill gays was evangelical Scott Lively and his team's way of loving his neighbor. With over 41,000 sects Christian love is expressed in many different ways...

          April 12, 2014 at 3:44 pm |
        • transframer

          Hi Doris
          I don't know what that guy Scott Lively did, but if he indeed did what you say that is definitely not love but really hate and he is not a Christian even if he says so

          April 12, 2014 at 3:51 pm |
        • Doris

          Oh yes, trans – he had a whole team of evangelicals with him. Now if we look at Uganda's recent history on this issue in consideration of Lively's "ministry" there, there are two more important things to note:

          1. The (previous) pope accepted the Christmas gift given by the head of the senate there to push through the "kill all the gays" bill as it was popularly known; and

          2. The only Anglican bishop who was trying to quell the violence against gays there – was..... demoted by the Anglican hierarchy.

          It sure seems that lots of people are deemed "not Christians" by other Christians trying to claim their view as the proper one.

          April 12, 2014 at 4:12 pm |
        • transframer

          Doris:
          Pope Benedict was bribed to push through a "kill all the gays" bill? In what way can a pope do that? I am not catholic but I find it hard to believe. Anyway, if you say it's true, maybe it is. Uganda doesn't sound like a solid democracy so I could see some mean people there invoking God to do all kind of evil things just to appeal to the poor and uneducated masses and to divert the attention from the main problems. It's an old trick that many successfully applied

          April 12, 2014 at 4:24 pm |
        • Doris

          You misunderstood, trans. what I was referring to is the ill-effects of those in a position to make a difference:

          "Pope Benedict XVI yesterday sent his first tweet from his new Twitter account, then turned around and blessed Rebecca Kadaga, the Speaker of the Uganda Parliament who promised to pass the “Kill The Gays” bill as a “Christmas gift” to Uganda’s Christians."

          Of course then there is just plain complacency or not knowing the motives and actions of other Christians in the world...

          April 12, 2014 at 4:37 pm |
        • transframer

          TruthPrevails1:
          The hate is saying that they are sinning when in fact they are not doing harm
          --------------------------------------
          For some reason I didn't see your reply earlier.
          "Saying" doesn't mean judging. After all, who I am to judge? It's for you/them to be aware, it's just a warning. If you want to listen, OK. If not, God, not me, will judge you and will decide if you sinned.

          April 12, 2014 at 11:52 pm |
        • joey3467

          Trying to ban gay marriage is hate, and it doesn't matter to me that you think that your god wants that.

          April 14, 2014 at 1:52 pm |
        • kermit4jc

          its not hate for anyone at all...too bad you narrowmindedness keeps you from seeing that

          April 15, 2014 at 4:31 pm |
      • doobzz

        "Christianity is only this: love your neighbor."

        So what is the whole zombie on a stick belief for if all I have to do is love my fellow humans? I already do that. Why do I need the bible and the human sacrifice?

        April 12, 2014 at 4:25 pm |
        • transframer

          If you are already doing this you will go to heaven. God bless you

          April 12, 2014 at 4:51 pm |
        • doobzz

          So no need to believe in human sacrifice? What if I don't want to be labeled Christian and just want to follow the golden rule without having to get Jeebus involved?

          April 12, 2014 at 5:34 pm |
        • transframer

          Yes, if you can do that without Jesus then go ahead. A good priest that I know someday said exactly that: "If you love, you can do anything" But you must be sincere with yourself. There are no exceptions or conditions.

          April 12, 2014 at 6:30 pm |
        • doobzz

          Interesting. You rarely hear that from clergy.

          April 12, 2014 at 11:00 pm |
      • colin31714

        Well, that might be its fundamental moral imperative for many, and I take no issue with that. What I take issue with is the slew of supernatural BS that goes along with it – life after death, Jesus having supernatural powers, angels, devils, saints, prayers being answered etc. Silly, childish stuff.

        April 12, 2014 at 4:49 pm |
        • transframer

          The ideas may look silly (but actual teachings and philosophy in Bible are anything but silly) but that's the only way for most people to accept and apply this fundamental principle. Loving your neighbor is not a natural thing, especially in its most extreme case: love your enemy. Most people can't do this without the help of Jesus and the Bible.

          April 12, 2014 at 4:58 pm |
        • colin31714

          Oh bullsheet. Hindus, Muslims and Buddhists are every bit as moral as Christians, including in their aspirations to love their enemies. It has nothing to do with belief in the Bible.

          April 13, 2014 at 3:00 am |
      • fortheloveofellipsis

        ...defined by some of its factions as "torturing people to death"...

        April 13, 2014 at 10:57 am |
  11. bostontola

    Man has invented thousands of Gods across the world. Man invented creation stories and civil rules to go with them. Many are extraordinarily imaginative.

    With no objective evidence for any of them, why would you continue to believe that your God is the one actual God out of all the thousands that were created by man?

    April 12, 2014 at 12:12 pm |
    • thefinisher1

      Humans invented atheism thus it's false. Your point?

      April 12, 2014 at 12:52 pm |
      • Tuscany Dream

        I want to be an avenger of atheism onside you, finisher! What is your faith so I can join and learn to be just like you?

        April 12, 2014 at 12:57 pm |
      • bostontola

        Humans invented cell phones, are they false?

        I said Gods. Atheists don't have any God. Try to keep up.

        April 12, 2014 at 1:17 pm |
        • transframer

          Most atheists have at least one god. For some is money, for others is power, for others is s.e.x. For Christopher Hitchens it was the booze

          April 12, 2014 at 1:37 pm |
        • bostontola

          Does that mean most Christians are polytheistic? Jesus, plus booze for some, gambling for others?

          No. That definition of "God" is so broad that it ceases to be useful.

          April 12, 2014 at 1:43 pm |
        • Tuscany Dream

          Thanks, b2la. My exact thought.

          April 12, 2014 at 2:08 pm |
        • transframer

          No, Christians only have one God. Anyone who has some other god is not a Christian, regardless of what he/she says or thinks

          April 12, 2014 at 2:18 pm |
        • thefinisher1

          Atheism is a man made belief...so.....your belief system is false since it's intention is to enslave mankind not free them. Give it up. Your atheism is a dying fad.

          April 12, 2014 at 2:18 pm |
        • Helga Pataki

          Trans,
          Your assessment of atheists is fallacious and unjustified. It is nothing but an attempt to vilify people who don't believe exactly as you do.
          Your no true Scotsman explanation is ridiculous. Try again.

          Thefinisher,
          Nonsense. Troll harder. Your attempt to disparage fails.

          April 12, 2014 at 2:47 pm |
        • transframer

          Helga,
          It's not an assessment, just an observation. I am sorry if doesn't apply to you.

          April 12, 2014 at 3:00 pm |
        • Doris

          Well, transframer. Then just how does your "assessment" of atheists differ from your "observation" of atheists?

          April 12, 2014 at 3:45 pm |
        • Helga Pataki

          I invite you to show me the proof where Christopher Hitchens said he worships booze as his god.
          Your assessment of atheists is not only wrong, it's a human condition that applies to most Christians, your no true Scotsman baloney notwithstanding.
          I never said I was an atheist, trans. See what assuming does? Makes you out to be a duplicitous "observervation"ionalist.

          April 12, 2014 at 4:16 pm |
        • transframer

          Worship is not when you say it loudly but when you practice it daily, with your body and mind

          April 12, 2014 at 5:05 pm |
  12. thefinisher1

    Atheism is a fictional story that parents will tell their kids at bedtime. What a terrible false story to tell kids!

    April 12, 2014 at 11:44 am |
    • Tuscany Dream

      Oh it is! You so nailed it! Wow ! Thank you!

      April 12, 2014 at 11:45 am |
      • thefinisher1

        Atheism has been disproved. Please form an orderly line and admit atheism is false.

        Thank you!

        April 12, 2014 at 11:51 am |
        • Tuscany Dream

          It has been! Thank you!
          I want to join your religion. I like your beliefs. What is it? Please tell me! I want to be enlightened just like you!

          April 12, 2014 at 11:53 am |
        • thefinisher1

          Your sarcasm is not needed troll.

          April 12, 2014 at 11:59 am |
        • bostontola

          I agree' sarcasm is uncalled for!

          Oops

          April 12, 2014 at 12:07 pm |
        • Tuscany Dream

          I'm not being sarcastic! I want to attend church with you! Which one is it?
          Why am I a troll? Because I sincerely want to know your faith so I can revel and rejoice with you?

          April 12, 2014 at 12:14 pm |
    • iamyourgod2014

      i love you thefinisher1 just like i love all my followerrs. it's been 2000 years. i havent made an appearance. you have spent your life devoted to me. im here. why dont you talk to me. i mean you believe that i created the world, that jesus walked on water, that noah built an ark, that i commanded all animals to board the ark, that jesus will rise again, that there is a devil, that i am floating in the sky................................so you must believe that i can manage to log online....yes it is me. (sigh, no one believes me, it feels like the old days)....so what do you think we should do to the atheists, cuz you know they will burn and you can watch from heaven once you are inside.....but you think we should do something else to them first? gimmie your thoughts.....love god and jesus

      April 12, 2014 at 12:49 pm |
  13. pittsburghese

    ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

    19“Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20“And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22“Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23“In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24“And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ 25“But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ 27“And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— 28for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29“But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30“But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31“But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

    April 12, 2014 at 11:28 am |
    • otoh2

      "‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

      Aw, poor little "God", so helpless and totally stymied about how effectively to convince *everyone* - I guess one should feel sorry for the incompetent, ineffective old guy.

      April 12, 2014 at 11:31 am |
      • neverbeenhappieratheist

        "If they do not listen to Moe and Jerry, they will not be persuaded to buy a car even if someone cut the price in half!.’” says the lazy car salesman...

        April 12, 2014 at 11:39 am |
    • bostontola

      If I had objective evidence that someone rose from the dead, that would be persuasive. No such evidence exists though.

      April 12, 2014 at 11:37 am |
      • truthfollower01

        Three facts pertaining to Jesus's fate and what occurred afterward that nearly 100% of all scholars today studying this subject accept. This includes Christians, Jews, agnostics and atheists.

        1. Jesus' death by crucifixion.

        "One of the most certain facts of history is that Jesus was crucified on orders of the Roman prefect of Judea, Pontius Pilate." – Bart Ehrman quote shown in his debate with Michael Liconia ("Ehrman vs. Licona (2009)") on YouTube.

        2. Appearances to the Disciples

        This is short for saying that shortly after Jesus's death, a number of Jesus's followers had experiences both individually and in group settings that they perceived were of the risen Jesus who appeared to them.

        "Why, then, did some of the disciples claim to see Jesus alive after his resurrection? I don't doubt at all that some disciples claimed this. We don't have any of their written testimony, but Paul, writing about twenty-five years later, indicates that this is what they claimed, and I don't think he is making it up. And he knew at least a couple of them, whom he met just three years after the event Galatians 1:18-19)." – from Bart Ehrman's book, Jesus Interrupted

        3. Appearance to Paul

        Short for saying that Paul had an experience that he perceived was of the risen Jesus appearing to him.

        ""there is no doubt that [Paul] believed that he saw Jesus' real but glorified body raised from the dead."
        – Bart Ehrman quote shown in his debate with Michael Liconia ("Ehrman vs. Licona (2009)") on YouTube.

        April 12, 2014 at 11:40 am |
        • truthfollower01

          The above info was taken from a debate between Michael Licona and Bart Ehrman that can be seen on YouTube.

          April 12, 2014 at 11:41 am |
        • Tuscany Dream

          Sigh. Except they're not "facts."
          And Paul BELIEVED he saw Jesus. And using Ehman is an appeal to authority fallacy.

          April 12, 2014 at 11:44 am |
        • doobzz

          This is evidence to you? That explains a lot.

          April 12, 2014 at 11:46 am |
        • bostontola

          Truth,
          That is not objective evidence.

          April 12, 2014 at 11:48 am |
        • Tuscany Dream

          And nearly 100% of scholars. Riiiiight.

          April 12, 2014 at 11:48 am |
        • truthfollower01

          I'm just showing what the scholars agree to. These statements are based on data. You need to give account for the statements. Remember, liars make poor martyrs.

          April 12, 2014 at 11:48 am |
        • otoh2

          truthfollower,

          And David Koresh BELIEVED that he had decoded the fantasy of the Biblical Seven Seals. He and over 80 of his followers died for it. So?

          April 12, 2014 at 11:51 am |
        • Tuscany Dream

          Name the scholars. Especially the atheist ones.

          April 12, 2014 at 11:51 am |
        • Doris

          Of course theists put a lot of trust in Paul. He "obtained" his stamp of approval by Peter who, in Peter 2, deemed Paul's works as divinely-inspired scripture. Except that most NT scholars agree that Peter did not author Peter 2... oops..

          April 12, 2014 at 12:00 pm |
        • Doris

          thruthf has developed this post to make it seem as if Bart Ehrman, as well as many of other types non-Christians agree to truthf's list of "facts" (where referenced scholars are somewhere in truthf's alleged 'nearly 100%'). Of course Bart Ehrman, an agnostic NT scholar, is only addressing the consistencies between characters and stories to show that what Paul claims is not out of character. Obviously Bart E. would not subscribe to #2 and #3 as "facts". Very disingenuous post.

          April 12, 2014 at 12:29 pm |
        • hotairace

          In other words, the above is evidence of claims not evidence of facts or events.

          April 12, 2014 at 12:37 pm |
        • Tuscany Dream

          Of course it dishonest. I suppose TF thinks that because she doesn't read our posts, nobody reads hers.

          Liars make poor martyrs indeed.

          April 12, 2014 at 12:45 pm |
        • iamyourgod2014

          Hiiii!! its jesus. Phew, god finally logged off so I can talk to people. yes, yup that was me. i still have holes in my wrists, like god didnt even heal me, he makes me walk around like that. well float around. we dont really walk around in heaven. anyway one time at band camp...actually thats a different story. do you think i should appear again? and if so, where should i do it? gimmie your thoughts you seem to know so much about what i did back then.....like i am totally getting deja vu

          April 12, 2014 at 12:54 pm |
        • truthfollower01

          Doris,

          "Of course Bart Ehrman, an agnostic NT scholar, is only addressing the consistencies between characters and stories to show that what Paul claims is not out of character. Obviously Bart E. would not subscribe to #2 and #3 as “facts”."

          Please see below.

          "there is no doubt that [Paul] believed that he saw Jesus' real but glorified body raised from the dead."
          – Bart Ehrman quote shown in his debate with Michael Liconia ("Ehrman vs. Licona (2009)") on YouTube.

          Bart Ehrman says there is "no doubt" that Paul believed this occurred.

          You need to give reason(s) for how the disciples and Paul were mistaken in what they believed occurred.

          April 12, 2014 at 5:19 pm |
        • truthfollower01

          Otoh,

          "And David Koresh BELIEVED that he had decoded the fantasy of the Biblical Seven Seals. He and over 80 of his followers died for it. So?"

          The disciples were in a position to KNOW if Jesus truly did rise from the dead. Their lives testify that He did. Liars make poor martyrs.

          April 12, 2014 at 5:21 pm |
        • otoh2

          truthfollower,

          Precisely which disciples (**verified** to have personally known Jesus) have been **verified** to have been martyrs (not simply legends about their deaths)?

          April 12, 2014 at 5:28 pm |
        • Doris

          truthf: "Bart Ehrman says there is "no doubt" that Paul believed this occurred.

          You need to give reason(s) for how the disciples and Paul were mistaken in what they believed occurred."

          Nonsense. Is there a parrot in the room?? Yes, Bart is addressing, based on the writing, what he thinks Paul believed–so what? You have disingenuously framed your argument above as if to say that Ehrman considers what Paul believed to be fact.

          April 12, 2014 at 5:35 pm |
        • truthfollower01

          Otoh,

          James, the brother of Jesus by Josephus and Paul and Peter by Clement.

          April 12, 2014 at 5:46 pm |
        • otoh2

          truthfollower,

          No, those are not verified (besides, Paul never knew Jesus, other than in his head). Josephus reported what the Christians claimed and Clement made a brief mention about Peter's death, also with no bona fide evidence.

          We have the names and biographies of all of Koresh's "martyrs", along with their photos, dental records, dna profiles and probably their 1st grade teachers' names. Yes, they were coo-coo, but most probably so were your guys (whoever they were - or were alleged to be). Real verification is not that difficult - a smart god would know how to do it.

          April 12, 2014 at 6:12 pm |
        • truthfollower01

          Otoh,

          "Josephus reported what the Christians claimed"

          Have you even read the Josephus account? Please provide evidence to back up your claim.

          "and Clement made a brief mention about Peter’s death"

          Please see 1 Corinthians 5 (Clement not Paul's 1 Corinthians) concerning Peter and Paul.

          April 12, 2014 at 7:12 pm |
  14. Doris

    truthfollower01 below defined "on atheism" as "a world without God".
    So it's not really atheism, but specifically, a world without the God of Abraham.

    When discussing the possible existence of objective (divine) "truths", truthfollower01 over and over appeals to his audience with Hitler and the story about the 9 year old molested Florida girl in an attempt to get the reader to agree to a non-qualifed value of "evil/incorrect/bad", as if this will lock in evidence of an objective "truth".

    Of course truthf is not interested in a subjective answer but only in getting the responder to commit to a value that he can then attempt to claim as objective. This is why he frequently asks – "is it wrong?" with no qualification that should be present for such an argument. If he explicitly asks qualifying with "objective", then he will have exposed himself as begging using objectivity in trying to demonstrate an instance of objectivity (which would look circularly foolish). He has to be disingenuous in trying to put the cart before the horse; to put an alleged divine "truth" in front of proving the source for it.

    @truthfollower01

    Prove that you do not just have a similar opinion that you have derived in the same subjective manner as atheists, only from something that only represents a claimed unsubstantiated source. Without your proof, we can only assume that you, and groups with which you have affinity in addressing moral issues, whether those groups be churches, people with the same interpretation of the Bible, governments (a theocracy, for instance), also do so subjectively.

    Prove that objective morality exists without resorting to subjective means. Can you do that? You know – demonstrate either your God or your direct connection to his "truths" without letting subjectivity enter the picture? We wouldn't want subjectivity tainting your demonstration of your direct connection to your god.

    April 12, 2014 at 11:22 am |
    • Tuscany Dream

      "On atheism" is a stupid and misleading term. As long as there are believers out there, God will exist for them.
      I don't know why anyone would bother with truthfollower. It doesn't look like she reads the answers she's given, because they people have explained it over and over, answering her questions, and then she asks the same ones, framed slightly different.

      My conclusion is that she is a Christian troll.
      On Christianism, where does that fall in the morality question?

      April 12, 2014 at 11:37 am |
    • truthfollower01

      Doris,

      I'm not interested in subjective morality. In the subjective case, morality is just an illusion, an invention of man.
      Think about this. On a subjective view of morality, a man can choose to decide that murder is morally evil and can base that opinion on external references such as the golden rule or he can decide that murder is morally good and base this opinion on other external references, such as for personal power. As sick as this is, each choice is equal with regards to morality on atheism.

      April 12, 2014 at 11:51 am |
      • Doris

        Regarding subjective morality: you've given no evidence that you are not also completely using subjectivity in moral assessment. You must have missed that in my post, truthf (readers note previous posters note about this).

        April 12, 2014 at 11:56 am |
        • Doris

          previous responder's note.. (Tuscany Dream)

          April 12, 2014 at 11:57 am |
        • Doris

          Speaking of "as sick as this is.....", let's look at Scott Lively. He's the evangelist who traveled to Africa to incite violence and encourage the killing of gays there. Now which camp do you fall into, truthf. Do you support his Christian actions there based on his moral interpretation of God's "Word" or not? You know, it's very difficult to determine these days which of the over 41,000 sects one is arguing their case from.....

          April 12, 2014 at 12:48 pm |
        • truthfollower01

          Doris,

          "Do you support his Christian actions there based on his moral interpretation of God’s “Word” or not?"

          On your description, he was acting against the teaching of God's word. Many things done in the name of Christianity are not reflective of Christianity.

          April 12, 2014 at 5:28 pm |
        • Doris

          truthf: "On your description, he was acting against the teaching of God's word."

          Wrong. On my description, he thought he was acting in accordance with the teachings of God.

          truthf: "Many things done in the name of Christianity are not reflective of Christianity."

          The things that are done from Christianity that you find not reflective of Christianity are often not the things that other Christians do find reflective of Christianity.

          April 12, 2014 at 5:42 pm |
      • Tuscany Dream

        "As sick as this is, each choice is equal with regards to morality on atheism."

        This is your opinion. And you have been told many times by the many atheists is isn't true , and they should know; they're the atheists!
        But you have come up with this, you're stuck on it, you've been stuck on it since you've appeared here.

        I suspect it's because you cannot fathom how one can be "Good without God" ( in every sense) and you straight up want to demonize atheists

        Think about this: the majority of murderers, child molesters, ra.pists, and abortion getters are Christian. Why don't you go ask what their morals are instead of sitting here asking the same questions that have been answered repeatedly?

        There IS no "on atheism". You are beginning to sound really simple.

        April 12, 2014 at 12:11 pm |
        • truthfollower01

          Tuscany,

          "This is your opinion. And you have been told many times by the many atheists is isn’t true , and they should know; they’re the atheists!
          But you have come up with this, you’re stuck on it, you’ve been stuck on it since you’ve appeared here."

          You give no evidence to show the statement isn't true. If it's not true, please indicate why?

          "I suspect it’s because you cannot fathom how one can be “Good without God” ( in every sense) and you straight up want to demonize atheists"

          I am not claiming at all that atheists cannot act morally. The question is, on atheism, what is the foundation for morality? Is it whatever a particular person wants it to be?

          "Think about this: the majority of murderers, child molesters, ra.pists, and abortion getters are Christian."

          The correct choice of words would be to say that they claim to be Christian. Huge difference.

          April 12, 2014 at 5:43 pm |
        • otoh2

          tf,

          Will you PLEASE quit saying "on atheism". That phrase makes no sense. One can write a post 'about' atheism, which would then be something 'on' atheism, but the way you use it is preposterous.

          I'll bet you say "liberry" too, and "warshing" machine, and "all a sudden" (I've already seen you say "allot" and "alot" for "a lot"), so I don't think that you are too bright.

          April 12, 2014 at 5:54 pm |
        • Doris

          truthf: "You give no evidence to show the statement isn't true. If it's not true, please indicate why?"
          truthf: "The question is, on atheism, what is the foundation for morality? Is it whatever a particular person wants it to be?"

          It's high time you start answering these questions, truthf:
          Can you prove that you do not just have a similar individual opinion that you have derived in the same subjective manner as atheists, only from something that only represents a claimed unsubstantiated source? Without your proof, we can only assume that you, and groups with which you have affinity in addressing moral issues, whether those groups be churches, people with the same interpretation of the Bible, governments (a theocracy, for instance), also do so subjectively.

          Can you prove that objective morality exists without resorting to subjective means. Can you do that? You know – demonstrate either your God or your direct connection to his "truths" without letting subjectivity enter the picture? We wouldn't want subjectivity tainting your demonstration of your direct connection to your god.

          Tuscan: "Think about this: the majority of murderers, child molesters, ra.pists, and abortion getters are Christian."

          truthf: "The correct choice of words would be to say that they claim to be Christian. Huge difference."

          Ah, the same lame excuse that other Christians are not Christians. How pathetic.

          April 12, 2014 at 5:57 pm |
        • truthfollower01

          Otoh,

          Why are you resorting to an ad hominem attack?

          April 12, 2014 at 7:24 pm |
        • otoh2

          tf,

          I apologize for the ad hom, but that "on atheism" thang of yours is like fingernails on a blackboard for me, especially since you have been called out on it by others so many times!

          April 13, 2014 at 1:22 am |
        • fortheloveofellipsis

          TD, truthinessfollower rather obviously uses "on atheism" as an equivalent of "on drugs." He's comparing atheism to drug use, with the clear intent of disparaging atheists. Childish, of course, but that's how truthiness rolls...

          April 13, 2014 at 10:21 am |
  15. bostontola

    Covenants.

    To regulate human behavior in growing populations, man invented Gods that laid down the law. This is an incontrovertible fact. It happened all over the world with various Gods and rule sets. These were viewed as contracts, covenants, between God and people.

    In the last few hundred years, man has advanced and has developed covenants with each other. In the US it is our Consti.tution. We have these covenants, big and small. They are the grease of our society's engine. We stay on the right side of the road when driving, we promote people for the merit of their work, etc.

    These human to human covenants are far superior and enable societies to function at the scale they are today. The biblical covenants were a stepping stone, and we wouldn't be where we are without them. I respect that and even admire the advancement. But why would I want to go backwards? There is bad in the world, people and ideas that are anti-social. We have a system that fights against that via our human to human covenants. We build them constantly, improving them with experience.

    We have a learning system. I don't think a biblical absolute system would be successful today. If there was a Christian Theocracy in some country, I believe it would become a backwater society because it couldn't learn and adapt. There are examples of Theocracies and the results are not good. That is evidence that our secular system with human to human covenants is superior.

    April 12, 2014 at 11:19 am |
  16. Bob

    Vic, regarding this Jesus stuff that you keep dumping on us, it is just a fairy tale. How is it again that your omnipotent being couldn't do his saving bit without the whole silly Jesus hoopla? And how was Jesus' death a "sacrifice", when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers? Pretty pathetic "god" that you've made for yourself there. The foundation of your whole religion is nonsense.

    Furthermore, your Christian book of nasty, AKA the bible, contains some pretty nasty demands of you purportedly from your omnipotent sky creature. Take a look at these, from both foul testaments:

    Numbers 31:17-18
    17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
    18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

    Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”

    Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

    Leviticus 25
    44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
    45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
    46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

    Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.

    Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.

    And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.

    So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.

    And further, ask yourself why we should have to rely on very stale, thousands-of-years-old, many-versioned old text, that is only reasonably subject to debates over its meaning. Why is it that your pathetic sky fairy can't even get with the past decade and create his own web presence (no, religious shill sites don't count), or push some tweets out? Even the pope, that creepy hider of criminal priests, could do that much, as can most children. After thousands of years of radio silence, reasonable doubt in the existence of your sky creature is easily justified, to say the least. Your absurd "god" is also apparently less capable at communication than any modern 10 year old.

    Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
    Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
    http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

    Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
    Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
    http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

    April 12, 2014 at 10:48 am |
    • kevinite

      Bob,

      It may be a shocker, but there are laws to which even God adheres to and respects. That it is through obeying those laws in which makes God a perfect being. God being our loving father wants us as his children to have the same happiness and be with him, and if we as his children also want the same thing then we also have to follow those same laws.

      When we fail to measure up to those laws those laws requires that justice is to be served and that the consequences are to be implemented and there is no escaping those consequences. Even God cannot just dismiss those laws or change those laws.

      April 12, 2014 at 11:44 am |
      • kevinite

        That is where God sacrificing his only begotten son comes into play. Through that sacrifice the payment our shortcomings has been paid for and then justice is satisfied. God still wants us to strive and try to follows those laws through obeying his commandments, and although we would definitely fall way short on our own, if we strive, repent, and do the best we can then God 's mercy comes into play since the payment for our failings or in other words for our sins was met through the sacrifice of his only begotten son.

        April 12, 2014 at 11:51 am |
        • kevinite

          @Bob,

          "Numbers 31:17-18
          17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
          18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

          Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”

          Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

          Leviticus 25
          44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
          45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
          46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

          Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal."

          19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

          24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

          (Galatians 3:19 and 24 KJV)

          The laws that were given in the Torah, according to Paul, were given because of the the transgressions of the Israelites in those days. Like particular children who are more unruly than others (i.e. those followers of God prior to those in Moses's day) those additional stricter laws were given to remind them of who they were and to remind them of the promises and agreements made between them and God.

          Those additional stricter laws were given as a schoolmaster in order to bring maturity and prepare to receive the more open and fulfilled laws given by Jesus Christ. When those fulfilled laws were given the previous stricter laws given through Moses were no longer applied.

          However, just like when a child becomes more mature and is given more freedoms and privileges, that the saying given by Stan Lee would apply in that with greater privileges and authority (i.e. greater power) comes greater responsibility, so to violate the laws and covenants at this level can also bring about greater eternal spiritual consequences as opposed to the more physical and more merely physically based laws that were given through Moses.

          April 12, 2014 at 12:00 pm |
        • otoh2

          kevinite,

          So, the death penalty for picking up a stick on the Sabbath, women's hands cut off for grabbing the privates of her husbands enemy, strict rules about how to cut one's hair, what fabrics to wear and how to plant the fields, etc. but not a peep about OWNING (buying, selling, trading) PEOPLE, nor about abusing children? Get serious.

          April 12, 2014 at 12:11 pm |
        • kevinite

          @otoh,

          Apparently you didn't read over my response regarding the law of Moses, which is where your are citing your points from.

          April 12, 2014 at 12:56 pm |
        • otoh2

          kevinite,

          I read your "laws of Moses" explanation. It is nonsense. The laws of Moses are so obviously those of primitive tribal men, rife with fantasy and superst.ition. That this "Lord God" didn't even bother to outlaw slavery and child abuse is ridiculous.

          April 12, 2014 at 1:06 pm |
        • kevinite

          @ otoh,

          You mean like your interpretation of what you see as child abuse. It's easy to proclaim those judgement calls without specifically citing just where you got your conclusion from? Just like where if God was totally okay with slavery that he didn't just merely say to go knock yourself out and enslave to your hearts desire? That back in those days there were certain Israelites who were going to engage in slavery despite what whether God's views on slavery actually were much like when the Israelites wanted to have a king like everyone else even though God did not prefer for them to have a king. Then Gods allows the Israelites to have a king anyway with certain given guidelines, and which in due time the Israelites were accountable for the consequences for wanting to have a King.

          April 12, 2014 at 1:24 pm |
        • otoh2

          Wow, kevinite, you really went off the rails with that one. Do you have a fever with transient delirium or something?

          Some old Israelite guy decided that it was more crucial to have not "coveting your neighbor's goods" as one of the Big Ten, instead of "Not Owning People"...?!

          April 12, 2014 at 1:42 pm |
        • kevinite

          Actually otoh,

          What is actually at the core is how we treat one another, which is even more at the core than the slavey issue.

          April 12, 2014 at 3:17 pm |
        • kevinite

          36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

          37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

          38 This is the first and great commandment.

          39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

          40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

          (Matthew 22:36-40)

          April 12, 2014 at 3:20 pm |
        • Bob

          kevinite. so clearly from your post, the primary moral of your cult is that you kiss the ass of your murderous sky fairy of your crazy Christian blood cult. That's pathetic. There are far better bases for better morals than what your blood cult can provide. Also ask yourself why an omnipotent creature needs your worship, or could sacrifice, or need to.

          Your "god" is not a loving creature, according to your bible, and in fact would be convicted of human rights abuses for its claimed acts and for making demands such as these, from your horrid Christian book of nasty AKA the bible:

          Numbers 31:17-18
          17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
          18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

          Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”

          Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

          Leviticus 25
          44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
          45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
          46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

          Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.

          Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.

          And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.

          So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.

          And further, ask yourself why we should have to rely on very stale, thousands-of-years-old, many-versioned old text, that is only reasonably subject to debates over its meaning. Why is it that your pathetic sky fairy can't even get with the past decade and create his own web presence (no, religious shill sites don't count), or push some tweets out? Even the pope, that creepy hider of criminal priests, could do that much, as can most children. After thousands of years of radio silence, reasonable doubt in the existence of your sky creature is easily justified, to say the least. Your absurd "god" is also apparently less capable at communication than any modern 10 year old.

          Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
          Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
          http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

          April 12, 2014 at 4:56 pm |
        • kevinite

          @Bob,
          "kevinite. so clearly from your post, the primary moral of your cult is that you kiss the ass of your murderous sky fairy of your crazy Christian blood cult. That's pathetic. There are far better bases for better morals than what your blood cult can provide. Also ask yourself why an omnipotent creature needs your worship, or could sacrifice, or need to.

          Your "god" is not a loving creature, according to your bible, and in fact would be convicted of human rights abuses for its claimed acts and for making demands such as these, from your horrid Christian book of nasty AKA the bible:"

          Yes, nothing proves how horrible and hateful God is quite like your spewing profanities showing how much more love you have compared to God. Also, frankly just reposting the same points and scriptures over and over again when those points were already countered and you not addressing those countered points seems rather futile.

          April 12, 2014 at 6:55 pm |
        • Bob

          Actually, kevinite, so far, you have been totally unable to counter my points. It's also funny that your god can't defend itself, or even communicate in a modern medium of his own accord. You may not like my words, but they are fully justified by the foul obscenity that your religion is to mankind. The sooner we are rid of your disgusting religion, the better.

          Regarding twitter and websites, like I said, religious shill sites by the likes of nutbars like you don't count. Where is your god's modern communication? Why should we have to rely on very stale, thousands-of-years-old, many-versioned old text, that is only reasonably subject to debates over its meaning. Why is it that your pathetic sky fairy can't even get with the past decade and create his own web presence (no, religious shill sites don't count), or push some tweets out? Even the pope, that creepy hider of criminal priests, could do that much, as can most children. After thousands of years of radio silence, reasonable doubt in the existence of your sky creature is easily justified, to say the least. Your absurd "god" is also apparently less capable at communication than any modern 10 year old.

          And then trying to claim that your Christian book of nasty is any basis for morals is absurd, especially when it contains demands of you such as these, from your murderous ass hole sky fairy:

          Numbers 31:17-18
          17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
          18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

          Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”

          Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

          Leviticus 25
          44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
          45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
          46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

          Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.

          Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.

          And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.

          So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.

          Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
          Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
          http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

          April 12, 2014 at 7:03 pm |
        • kevinite

          Okay Bob,

          Just what points are you referring to because you done is simply saying the same points over and over again and those points were already addressed, especially regarding your points and my points are a matter of belief and just you saying over and over again that I do not have proof verifying my beliefs. I never tried to provide proof verifying my beliefs. All i've done was just explain my beliefs. You're the one who is so up in a knot about providing proof and I'm wondering why are you so up in knot about me providing proof verifying my beliefs when you haven't even provided any such proof verifying your point-of-view.

          April 12, 2014 at 8:32 pm |
        • Bob

          The points again, starting from the top:

          How is it again that your omnipotent being couldn't do his saving bit without the whole silly Jesus hoopla? And how was Jesus' death a "sacrifice", when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers? Pretty pathetic "god" that you've made for yourself there. The foundation of your whole despicable religion is nonsense.

          Furthermore, your Christian book of nasty, AKA the bible, contains some pretty nasty demands of you purportedly from your omnipotent sky creature. Take a look at these, from both foul testaments of that document:

          Numbers 31:17-18
          17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
          18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

          Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”

          Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

          Leviticus 25
          44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
          45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
          46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

          Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.

          Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.

          And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.

          So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.

          And further, ask yourself why we should have to rely on very stale, thousands-of-years-old, many-versioned old text, that is only reasonably subject to debates over its meaning. Why is it that your pathetic sky fairy can't even get with the past decade and create his own web presence (no, religious shill sites don't count), or push some tweets out? Even the pope, that creepy hider of criminal priests, could do that much, as can most children. After thousands of years of radio silence, reasonable doubt in the existence of your sky creature is easily justified, to say the least. Your absurd "god" is also apparently less capable at communication than any modern 10 year old.

          Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
          Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
          http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

          April 13, 2014 at 4:02 pm |
      • Doris

        kev: there are laws to which even God adheres to and respects"

        Really? Now what would those be? I think you need to prove the Abrahamic God first, but I would be interested in what laws you think your god adheres to...

        April 12, 2014 at 11:51 am |
        • kevinite

          Well Doris,

          Information concerning through those natural laws in which God does obey and which we need to obey is given through the commandments God has given to us.

          As to your need to have it all be proven irrefutably, of course no such proof is available. We are given free will and that if we will follow those laws or commandments we would do so under our own free choice and not merely because we have to. Trying to follow those laws under our own free will is proven most when we have to rely on faith.

          April 12, 2014 at 12:11 pm |
        • Tuscany Dream

          She is asking for which laws.

          My goodness, does no one read the responses here?

          April 12, 2014 at 12:18 pm |
        • Doris

          OK thanks, kev. Good to know you agree your claims are not proven fact, but rather your belief that comes from your faith.

          April 12, 2014 at 12:18 pm |
        • kevinite

          Tuscany,

          Just like I said, those laws are known through the commandments or you can say that one equates those laws with the commandments God has given.

          April 12, 2014 at 1:00 pm |
        • Doris

          Especially since man was allegedly created in man's image, I would think that God would want to set himself as an example to man to see his "laws" realized in men and their laws. And then supposedly he went and killed virtually everyone.....

          If I were to believe in such a god, I would have to know something about his ethical adviser.

          April 12, 2014 at 1:09 pm |
        • Doris

          Correction of first line in my last reply:

          Especially since man was allegedly created in God's image

          April 12, 2014 at 1:10 pm |
        • kevinite

          So Doris,

          You realize that as one who believes in God that I also believe that God does not just almost take the lives of everyone but that Gods does make it that absolutely everyone will die. That in fact the reason why we are on this earth in the first place is to be given a brief period time (mortality) to be tested to see if we do actually follow God of our own free will. That in this test there are obstacles to challenge us (challenges in life) and that when the time is up we would be judged on how well we performed and that if we performed well enough then Gods mercy comes into play to make up for own personal failure in this test we were given in mortality. Although God may not give us a full explanation to justify why he did take the lives of each and every individual, but God does proclaim that he is in the end a just God and that there is a reason for each death that has taken place. Of course believing in that does require faith and trust and it is certainly not easy to have faith and trust that God does have the big picture and that we mere mortals, who only see just this brief life of mortality does not have.

          April 12, 2014 at 1:48 pm |
        • colin31714

          Kevite, you said "That in fact the reason why we are on this earth in the first place is to be given a brief period time (mortality) to be tested to see if we do actually follow God of our own free will."

          If God is all knowing, wouldn't he know who will and who will not pass prior to their even being born? If such a case, why the "test." Further, why does he not simply appear or alter each failing person's DNA to make them more credulous and prone to believe, if he insist on continuing to hide.

          The whole idea is silly.

          April 12, 2014 at 1:57 pm |
        • kevinite

          @colin,

          How would God know then in advanced for certain whether or not we would pass if we were not at least given the opprotunity in the first place? Otherwise there really would be no accountability established. One cannot be tried for committing crime if the crime has not yet been committed even if we knew somehow in advanced that the crime will be committed.

          April 12, 2014 at 2:05 pm |
        • colin31714

          If God does not know, then he is not all knowing, which means he is limited and has flaws. If he does know, then my point is, he can avoid the failures altogether so he does not have to punish. I am not sayi g punish without trial, I am saying avoid the failures. After all Christains claim he is all loving.

          April 12, 2014 at 2:09 pm |
        • kevinite

          @colin,

          Wouldn't altering our DNA or whatever to make us more prone to believe in God take away at least some of our free will if not completely taking away our free will? A key part in this test of mortality is to have our free will and to exercise our faith.

          April 12, 2014 at 2:10 pm |
        • kevinite

          @colin,

          Where do you get that actually letting the opportunity to be tested means that God isn't all knowing? Especially since these events in mortality are allowed to take place and that there isn't a situation in which the test of mortality has not taken place, how would you even be able to make such a cross comparison?

          April 12, 2014 at 2:18 pm |
        • Madtown

          actually letting the opportunity to be tested means that God isn't all knowing?
          ---–
          What would be the point of the test, if the answer is already known? Why would God bother to create beings that he knows will fail the test? Does God enjoy wasting his time?

          April 12, 2014 at 2:26 pm |
        • kevinite

          So madtown,

          How would you feel if you were tried and condemned for a crime you didn't commit because you were told you would have committed that crime if given the chance?

          April 12, 2014 at 2:31 pm |
        • kevinite

          @ madtown,

          Like I said in the beginning, that there are certain natural laws that God adheres to and respects and those laws do pertain to justice. That if one is to be condemned for their actions those laws require that those actions to actually have taken place otherwise is is not just.

          April 12, 2014 at 2:34 pm |
        • Madtown

          How would you feel if you were tried and condemned for a crime you didn't commit because you were told you would have committed that crime if given the chance?
          --–
          That makes almost no sense. Although, I certainly would feel bad to be condemned for a crime I didn't commit, as would everyone.

          April 12, 2014 at 2:41 pm |
        • Madtown

          there are certain natural laws that God adheres to and respects
          ---–
          How do you claim to know this for certain, and where are these laws referenced?

          April 12, 2014 at 2:43 pm |
        • kevinite

          Madtown,

          My claim is based on my belief just like your claim is based on your belief.

          April 12, 2014 at 2:47 pm |
        • kevinite

          @ madtown,

          The entire gospel is based on these natural laws.

          April 12, 2014 at 2:48 pm |
        • Doris

          kev: "Although God may not give us a full explanation to justify....."

          It's quite obvious that the alleged partial "explanation" has manifested itself in thousands of ways among those who are so certain of their beliefs... and to me, it appears that many of these partial "explanations" serve the wishes well of those who hold the beliefs...

          April 12, 2014 at 3:29 pm |
        • kevinite

          Well Doris,

          That does appear to be the trial of faith. To try to exercise that faith and see for yourself whether or not having faith is the right thing to have.

          April 12, 2014 at 4:02 pm |
        • Madtown

          My claim is based on my belief just like your claim is based on your belief.
          ---
          Ah, but I have made no claim. I reject religion as a man-made system, and thus completely fallible. I only apply simple logic to your claims.

          April 12, 2014 at 6:55 pm |
        • Madtown

          The entire gospel is based on these natural laws.
          --–
          Well, God didn't author the gospel. So again, how do you "know" what God's laws are? If you refer to the bible, you're referring to the writings of man, about what he THINKS God's laws are. You can't know they are God's laws. You may believe they are, but you have no objective way to prove it.

          April 12, 2014 at 6:58 pm |
        • kevinite

          @madtown,

          When you are stating that my beliefs are incorrect and that there is no such God as the God I believe without providing the irrefutable proof confirming your statement is tue, then guess what? You are making a claim that is based on belief.

          April 12, 2014 at 7:46 pm |
        • kevinite

          @madtown,

          To say that God didn't author the gospel is rather jumping the gun. The prophets and apostles who wrote the scriptures believed that what they wrote down came through revelation they have received from God, and frankly you cannot prove that they did not receive revelation from God. In the end your conclusions are like my conclusions. They are both based on belief.

          April 12, 2014 at 7:54 pm |
        • Madtown

          you are stating that my beliefs are incorrect and that there is no such God as the God I believe
          ----–
          I said no such thing. Again, I'm replying with LOGIC in response to things you posted in the first place. I only started this exchange in response to you suggesting that God puts us all up to certain "tests", while knowing if we will pass/fail before the test even begins. My initial response to you was to: 1) question how you think you know that, and 2) ask why God would even create people he knows won't pass his test. What would be the point of creating those individuals? I said further down that you're welcome to your beliefs, but that you have no way of proving them objectively. Again....I make no outlandish claim like supporters of religions do. I simply question the claims using very simple logic. Very simple logic does not appear to be part of your process.

          April 13, 2014 at 9:04 am |
        • Madtown

          To say that God didn't author the gospel is rather jumping the gun
          ----
          We know the names of most of the authors of all scriptural texts. They are most certainly human. That's not your argument, of course humans wrote the works. You can believe God inspired them to do so, but then your first question should be, why didn't God just create them himself? Is he not powerful enough? Seems he certainly is, creating this entire universe and all life within is a tremendous undertaking. He didn't need human help to create the universe, but he needs human help to write a few words in a book? Your next question should be: why didn't God inspire other humans in other cultures to write down the same concepts? You know, so EVERYONE God created could have the same message?!

          April 13, 2014 at 9:09 am |
        • igaftr

          kevin
          "The prophets and apostles who wrote the scriptures believed that what they wrote down came through revelation they have received from God, and frankly you cannot prove that they did not receive revelation from God"

          So it is just as likely they received revelation through satan is what you are saying. Considering the violent, destructive history of belief in the bible, the implication is that Satan inspired the bible, and you are following his word. Fact is, you don't know, but likely never considered the master of lies and deceipt would ever do something like inspire a book and credit "god".

          Give it a deep hard reflection. You just might have fallen for Satan's greatest trick...the bible.

          April 13, 2014 at 9:26 am |
        • kevinite

          @ madtown,

          "actually letting the opportunity to be tested means that God isn't all knowing?
          -–
          What would be the point of the test, if the answer is already known? Why would God bother to create beings that he knows will fail the test? Does God enjoy wasting his time?"

          So, from the questions you posted are you concluding then that you have no such doubting opinion or any opinion whatsoever regarding what my beliefs are concerning God? If not then I stand corrected. If you do have such an opinion, (which according to your questions it does seem like you have a doubting opinion otherwise you wouldn't have asked those questions), and if such an opinion has no irrefutable evidence to verify that opinion, then guess what? You do have a opinion or conclusion that is based on belief just like me.

          April 13, 2014 at 2:46 pm |
        • Doris

          Good point, igaftr. If early Christian apologists' (Justin Martyr and more) claims that Satan was able to perform plagiarism backward in time (diabolical mimicry), then there's not telling how much his hand was in the pot in various ways.

          April 13, 2014 at 2:53 pm |
        • Madtown

          You do have a opinion or conclusion that is based on belief just like me.
          ----
          I BELIEVE you are engaging in deflection, because you can't/won't answer the question. Again: what's the point of God's "tests" when he already knows the answer/outcome? Why would God create humans in the first place that he knows will not pass his tests?

          April 13, 2014 at 3:02 pm |
        • kevinite

          @ madtown,

          "You can believe God inspired them to do so (scriptures), but then your first question should be, why didn't God just create them himself? Is he not powerful enough? Seems he certainly is, creating this entire universe and all life within is a tremendous undertaking. He didn't need human help to create the universe, but he needs human help to write a few words in a book?

          Really, if your asking those question then why not ask about why God wouldn't just make his presence known to everyone? I'm rather astonished that you even asked that question considering that I have already been asked here what kind of proof do I have to verify my beliefs, but since you overlooked that part I'll give you a clue. The reason why I believe why God decides to give revelation through prophets instead of a more obvious route has to do with developing ones on personal _____. (It starts with an "f" and ends with an "aith".

          Your next question should be: why didn't God inspire other humans in other cultures to write down the same concepts? You know, so EVERYONE God created could have the same message?!"

          What makes you think that I don't believe that God inspired other groups to write down scriptures or that I do not believe that everyone will eventually have the opprotunity to learn about the gospel whether in this life of mortality or afterwards, or even that I do not believe that God continues to give revelation to prophets?

          April 13, 2014 at 3:12 pm |
        • kevinite

          @ifgtar,

          As far as validated conclusive proof that my belief is coming from God as opposed to coming from somewhere else, that of course is a matter of faith, but at least in my belief there are the following concepts:

          "26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
          (John 14:26 KJV)

          That one can know through the guidance of the Holy Ghost.. In that role the Holy Ghost reveals through being the "Comforter". As to what that means to me is when searching and studying about God and the scriptures I can receive a "comforting" type of feeling giving assurance that it is true.

          "22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

          23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."
          (Galatians 5:22-23 KJV)

          When studying these things one can also even ask God for wisdom and guidance regarding the gospel as well.

          "5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

          6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed."
          (James 1:5-6 KJV)

          For me in my personal experiences I have gone through that process of studying, listening, and even trying those principles out as well as even asking God in prayer. What I have personally received is I can't fully describe it but it was a type of deep comforting assurance of what what I have been studying and practicing is true and that it is from God. Through those experiences I've decided to take that leap of faith and believe that what I have learned practiced and prayed about is true.

          To say that to believe in these comforting feelings may seem rather rash or gullible, but like I said the deep comforting sense of assurance was unlike anything else that I had ever experienced before. To fully describe it is kind of like trying to explain what salt tastes like to someone who has never tasted salt before.

          There may be others of other faiths who also claimed similar experiences. However, to say that what the others had experienced and what I had experienced was the same thing I really don't know since I can't even fully describe the type of comforting reassurance that I received. All I know is what I've experienced and if someone else also wants to make those same inquiries they could also try the same things and find out for themselves and see what happens.

          April 13, 2014 at 4:18 pm |
        • igaftr

          kevin
          What you have stated is exactly what satan wants you to feel, and you quoted from his book too.

          You have no idea if what you feel is "god" or simply contentment, or satan lulling you.

          April 13, 2014 at 4:26 pm |
        • Madtown

          I believe why God decides to give revelation through prophets instead of a more obvious route
          --–
          You strike me as a typical stubborn believer. You believe you have found the "correct" way of approaching religion/spirituality/God. It works for you, and that of course is just fine. But....if God hasn't made certain that your preferred way(christianity) is equally accessible to EVERYONE, then to be intellectually honest you have to admit that the following scenario is equally plausible: Maybe God has actually given the "correct" religion to a different culture entirely, one that you're not aware of, and have no contact with. Maybe you have no concept of the existence of this religion, you've never heard of it. Why couldn't this be the case? This is what you want to put on other humans in the world with no knowledge of christianity, so to be intellectually honest you'd have to admit that this could be the case for you as well.

          April 13, 2014 at 7:59 pm |
        • kevinite

          @ifgtar,

          So tell me, if I was someone who never tasted salt before, how do tell me what salt tastes like? Also in that regard, how do you really know with absolute certainty that what I experienced was delusional since I didn't even give you a full description as to what happened? You can give all the opinion you want concluding that it was delusional, but your opinion is just that, an opinion, not fact.

          April 13, 2014 at 8:43 pm |
        • kevinite

          @madtown,

          Actually where it comes to those who never had a chance in this life will have a chance after this life to learn about the gospel and decide whether to follow it or not after this life.

          "18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

          19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

          20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

          If these spirits from the days of Noah were truly lost then why would Jesus even bother to preach to these "lost spirits" who were in a spiritual prison.

          April 13, 2014 at 8:54 pm |
        • kevinite

          @madtown,

          18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

          19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

          20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

          That was 1 Peter 3:18-20

          April 13, 2014 at 8:56 pm |
        • Madtown

          will have a chance after this life to learn about the gospel and decide whether to follow it or not after this life.
          ---–
          You have no way of knowing this, and it's actually somewhat absurd. After we pass from this life, we meet God in judgement, right? How could we NOT know at that point then? If we'd meet God after leaving here, I think it would be pretty clear whether or not to accept the gospel. You appear to be working overtime to find ways to attempt to justify what you believe. Quoting scripture doesn't make a very good case, sorry. Biblical scripture was authored by human beings, not God. You can't quote it as proof of what God wants from us.

          April 13, 2014 at 9:06 pm |
        • Madtown

          Kevin, do you admit the equal plausibility of the following scenario, to your beliefs? Or, will you remain intellectually dishonest?

          ---Maybe God has actually given the "correct" religion to a different culture entirely, one that you're not aware of, and have no contact with. Maybe you have no concept of the existence of this religion, you've never heard of it. Why couldn't this be the case? This is what you want to put on other humans in the world with no knowledge of christianity

          April 13, 2014 at 9:08 pm |
        • kevinite

          @madtown,

          I can't figure why you just keep putting up the same points over and over again about how do I know these things? It's like you totally ignore my previous comments regarding those very same points. So, for the umpthteen time it's about a matter of faith. You keep obsessing about that I should provide something factual and in your face when I told right from the beginning that is all a matter of faith and belief.

          What I find amazing is that you are so obsessive about me providing proof, yet when it comes down to the nitty gritty truth that you can't prove your conclusions any more than I can prove mine. Your view is a very one sided view about obsessing over the lack of proof in my beliefs while failing to address the issue about your own conclusions are lacking the proof as well.

          So, madtown how do you really know with absolute certainty that my beliefs are wrong, because merely saying that I lack proof isn't proof that your side is correct. After all, if you went by that logic, then the lack of proof that there is no all powerful being out there who does not want to be made known but rather have us develop our faith in said being would then that would be considered proof that there is in fact such a being.

          April 13, 2014 at 11:36 pm |
        • kevinite

          @madtown,

          "-Maybe God has actually given the "correct" religion to a different culture entirely, one that you're not aware of, and have no contact with. Maybe you have no concept of the existence of this religion, you've never heard of it. Why couldn't this be the case? This is what you want to put on other humans in the world with no knowledge of christianity."

          Of course there is the possibility that there could be the case. In fact I strongly believe that other places and cultures outside the Holy Land had prophets, scriptures, other revelations from God given to humanity that are not found in the current pages of the Bible. Also, like I said regarding those who never had the opprotunity to know about the gospel in this life will have an opprotunity to learn about it and decide whether or not to follow it after this life because although you mentioned about there wouldn't be an opprotunity after mortality because they will meet God and have their judge when in fact that event was not to happen immediately after ones death.

          Case in point was my reference in 1Peter where Jesus between the time of his death and resurrection preached unto those in a spiritual prison who were alive back in the days of Noah. Apparently after being in the afterlife for over two and a half millennia they still had yet to meet Jesus and even then there was no final judgement. So, that means that the deceased individual would have an open opprotunity with the free will to make their own decision when they are finally taught the gospel as to whether or not to accept it.

          April 14, 2014 at 12:11 am |
        • kevinite

          Also madtown,

          If your thinking that just merely meeting Jesus in the after life being such a obvious sign of divinity that there really would be any choice because everyone would automatically believe, that s not always the case. Even when there was apparently obvious signs of divinity given in the Bible such as Elijah's challenge to the priests of Baal resulting in not only the destruction of the altar but also the destruction of the priests of Baal themselves, yet Jezebel did somehow did not have that change of heart unless that meant seeking a total vendetta to kill Elijah as being that change of heart. In another instance was with Cain who actually talked with God directly and knew with complete certainty of God's divinity yet still killed his brother and never had remorse or guilt for killing his brother, so when it comes to the whole of humanity, it takes all kinds.

          April 14, 2014 at 12:30 am |
      • Bob

        kevinite, first, you have no evidence for the existence of your particular "god", and man has invented thousands of gods. In fact, all the evidence contradicts your stupid fairy tales. How are your mustard trees growing, and what shape is the earth this week? And how do diseases propagate?

        Now, with regard to your entire Jesus-sacrifice stuff, that is all bullcr@p. It is remarkable that you've fallen for that story – face first into it apparently; perhaps you like the taste of it. You certainly have not looked critically at your beliefs. How is it again that your omnipotent being couldn't do his saving bit without the whole silly Jesus hoopla? Take the time to ask yourself how was Jesus' death a "sacrifice", when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers? Pretty pathetic "god" that you've made for yourself there. The foundation of your whole religion is nonsense.

        Regarding the laws and demands that Christian doctrine would inflict on us, they are both sexist and horrid. In fact, the "deity" purportedly behind them should be convicted of human rights abuses, and would be by any modern HR court. Again, see here, from both foul testaments of the Christian mythbook:
        Numbers 31:17-18
        17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
        18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

        Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”

        Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

        Leviticus 25
        44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
        45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
        46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

        Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.

        Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.

        And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.

        So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.

        And further, ask yourself why we should have to rely on very stale, thousands-of-years-old, many-versioned old text, that is only reasonably subject to debates over its meaning. Why is it that your pathetic sky fairy can't even get with the past decade and create his own web presence (no, religious shill sites don't count), or push some tweets out? Even the pope, that creepy hider of criminal priests, could do that much, as can most children. After thousands of years of radio silence, reasonable doubt in the existence of your sky creature is easily justified, to say the least. Your absurd "god" is also apparently less capable at communication than any modern 10 year old.

        Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
        Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
        http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

        April 12, 2014 at 12:21 pm |
        • kevinite

          Bob,

          "kevinite, first, you have no evidence for the existence of your particular "god" and man has invented thousands of gods. In fact, all the evidence contradicts your stupid fairy tales. How are your mustard trees growing, and what shape is the earth this week? And how do diseases propagate?"

          So, no evidence just like there is actually no irrefutable evidence proving there actually is no God either. The mere lack of evidence isn't evidence in of itself. Just like in my response to Doris, I have to rely on faith. Therefore my conclusion is based on belief just like your conclusion that there is no such God is based based on belief.

          How is it that John Wilkes Booth actually assassinated Abraham Lincoln when it's obvious that it was a projectile coming at high velocity entering Lincoln's skull and causing massive brain damage is what caused the death of Abraham Lincoln. Oh the clarity science brings. But then again, that doesn't actually prove who was behind the trigger just like showing how nature works and how diseases develop doesn't actually prove that there is no God behind the trigger in causing those events to happen as well. The Bible gives us information about God being the source for having this earth created but there is no clarity as to how or even how long it took for the earth to develop.

          April 12, 2014 at 12:44 pm |
        • kevinite

          17 ¶Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. (Matthew 5:17 KJV)

          April 12, 2014 at 12:51 pm |
        • Bob

          kevinite, the evidence such as how diseases really propagate, and much more, vs. what your idiotic bible says, actually is evidence against your beliefs.

          Now, regarding your quoting of your Christian book of nasty AKA the bible, again I say, no "loving" god could put such horrid demands in there such as clearly are there, at any point in time. Your god would plainly be a murderous ass hole if it existed, and would be convicted of human rights abuses by a modern court.

          As for your Jesus sacrifice nonsense that you keep trying sneak in, again, how is it that your omnipotent being couldn't do his saving bit without the whole silly Jesus hoopla? And how was Jesus' death a "sacrifice", when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers? Pretty pathetic "god" that you've made for yourself there. The foundation of your whole religion is nonsense.

          Finally, regarding your latest attempt to reference your idiotic Christian folklore, think about this: why we should have to rely on very stale, thousands-of-years-old, many-versioned old text, that is only reasonably subject to debates over its meaning. Why is it that your pathetic sky fairy can't even get with the past decade and create his own web presence (no, religious shill sites don't count), or push some tweets out? Even the pope, that creepy hider of criminal priests, could do that much, as can most children. After thousands of years of radio silence, reasonable doubt in the existence of your sky creature is easily justified, to say the least. Your absurd "god" is also apparently less capable at communication than any modern 10 year old.

          Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
          Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
          http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

          April 12, 2014 at 4:32 pm |
        • kevinite

          "kevinite, the evidence such as how diseases really propagate, and much more, vs. what your idiotic bible says, actually is evidence against your beliefs."

          Of course, the evidence you provided certainly confirms that...oh wait, you didn't provide any such evidence.

          "Now, regarding your quoting of your Christian book of nasty AKA the bible, again I say, no "loving" god could put such horrid demands in there such as clearly are there, at any point in time. Your god would plainly be a murderous ass hole if it existed, and would be convicted of human rights abuses by a modern court."

          Of course, the evidence you provided certainly confirms that...oh wait, you didn't provide any such evidence....again.

          "As for your Jesus sacrifice nonsense that you keep trying sneak in, again, how is it that your omnipotent being couldn't do his saving bit without the whole silly Jesus hoopla? And how was Jesus' death a "sacrifice", when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers? Pretty pathetic "god" that you've made for yourself there. The foundation of your whole religion is nonsense."

          If God's sacrifice of is begotten son was a sucess then why would there be a need for a replacement son in the first place? The reason why it had to be God's only begotten son is just that "only begotten" begotten not only in the spirit, like the rest of us, but also in the flesh. Since God was already an immortal being he could not suffer in the flesh and overcome the bonds of death on in which we are subjected to that there needed to be one who was mortal, so as to be able to suffer and die and being physically of God also able to have the power and strength to actually pay for our sins and overcome the bonds of death on our behalf.

          "Finally, regarding your latest attempt to reference your idiotic Christian folklore, think about this: why we should have to rely on very stale, thousands-of-years-old, many-versioned old text, that is only reasonably subject to debates over its meaning. Why is it that your pathetic sky fairy can't even get with the past decade and create his own web presence (no, religious shill sites don't count), or push some tweets out? Even the pope, that creepy hider of criminal priests, could do that much, as can most children. After thousands of years of radio silence, reasonable doubt in the existence of your sky creature is easily justified, to say the least. Your absurd "god" is also apparently less capable at communication than any modern 10 year old."

          What makes you think that God doesn't have a website or a twitter page? There are allot of sources such as churches out there claiming they are the ones who setted up Gods website. Who are you to make the call that church web sites do not count? What if one of those websites actually was God's website just like what if the Bible actually does contain the word of God. Of course, that is a matter of faith just like your own views are a matter of belief.

          April 12, 2014 at 5:12 pm |
        • Bob

          kevinite, first, you get a giant FAIL WHALE for your latest spew. The contradictions of your goat herder's masturbation manual AKA the bible with established science are well catalogued here:
          http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/science/long.html

          Next, regarding twitter and websites, like I said, religious shill sites by the likes of nutbars like you don't count. Where is your god's modern communication? Why should we have to rely on very stale, thousands-of-years-old, many-versioned old text, that is only reasonably subject to debates over its meaning. Why is it that your pathetic sky fairy can't even get with the past decade and create his own web presence (no, religious shill sites don't count), or push some tweets out? Even the pope, that creepy hider of criminal priests, could do that much, as can most children. After thousands of years of radio silence, reasonable doubt in the existence of your sky creature is easily justified, to say the least. Your absurd "god" is also apparently less capable at communication than any modern 10 year old.

          And then trying to claim that your Christian book of nasty is any basis for morals is absurd, especially when it contains demands of you such as these, from your murderous ass hole sky fairy:

          Numbers 31:17-18
          17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
          18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

          Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”

          Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

          Leviticus 25
          44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
          45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
          46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

          Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.

          Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.

          And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.

          So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.

          Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
          Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
          http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

          April 12, 2014 at 6:58 pm |
        • kevinite

          @ Bob,
          "kevinite, first, you get a giant FAIL WHALE for your latest spew."

          And here I was so hoping to get your approval. Your "blessing" as it were. That is soooo totally unexpected. You could of course have explained why the FAIL WHALE grade, but you failed to do so, unless it was because you said so in which case I stand corrected.

          "Next, regarding twitter and websites, like I said, religious shill sites by the likes of nutbars like you don't count."

          Again, who are you to make that call? You didn't bother to explain why point unless it is because you said so, in which in that case once again I stand corrected.

          'Why should we have to rely on very stale, thousands-of-years-old, many-versioned old text, that is only reasonably subject to debates over its meaning....After thousands of years of radio silence, reasonable doubt in the existence of your sky creature is easily justified, to say the least. Your absurd "god" is also apparently less capable at communication than any modern 10 year old."

          You realize that for communication to be effective it has to be two-way, and that it does have to take some effort not just simply praying giving a wish list and see if your wish requests are met. That it requires us to actually put some effort into listening to Gods response whatever response that may be even if the answer is no . It is a matter of God still giving continual guidance and revelation. This includes even giving guidance from a volume of ancient scripture. You didn't give any evidence proving that ancient scripture cannot still be useful or that it actually has an expiration date? Of course once again my viewpoints are a matter of belief just like your viewpoints are a matter of belief that is unless your viewpoints are not a matter of belief simply because you said so.

          April 12, 2014 at 7:40 pm |
        • Bob

          kevinite, again, why can't your sky fairy produce its own, modern communication? The reason is that your god does not exist. You just lack the courage to admit that.

          You cannot produce a single verifiable instance of your god acting in the modern world, so like I say, reasonable doubt is more than justified, just to get started. And why should we have to rely on very stale, thousands-of-years-old, many-versioned old text, that is only reasonably subject to debates over its meaning. Why is it that your pathetic sky fairy can't even get with the past decade and create his own web presence (no, religious shill sites don't count), or push some tweets out? Even the pope, that creepy hider of criminal priests, could do that much, as can most children. Your absurd "god" is also apparently less capable at communication than any modern 10 year old.

          Furthermore, the contradictions of your goat herder's masturbation manual AKA the bible with established science are well catalogued here:
          http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/science/long.html

          And then trying to claim that your Christian book of nasty is any basis for morals is absurd, especially when it contains demands of you such as these, from your murderous ass hole sky fairy:

          Numbers 31:17-18
          17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
          18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

          Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”

          Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

          Leviticus 25
          44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
          45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
          46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

          Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.

          Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.

          And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.

          So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.

          Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
          Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
          http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

          April 12, 2014 at 7:51 pm |
        • kevinite

          Wow Bob,

          You keep repeating over and over again how wrong my beliefs are while never providing any irrefutable proof to back up your claim. Once again I'm stating that my beliefs are just that "beliefs". Now if you are saying that I cannot prove that I believe , then here is my proof; I believe. Now if your saying that what I believe in is incorrect then all you have to do is provide the irrefutable proof that what I believe is incorrect, and frankly just saying that they are incorrect doesn't prove anythng.

          April 12, 2014 at 8:03 pm |
        • neverbeenhappieratheist

          The fact that so far we have found zero empirical evidence FOR God certainly should be seen as evidence against Gods existence. It isn't absolute proof because there is so much more to discover, but if we lived in some magical fairy tale where spirit beings watch over us and prayer actually works you would think we would be able to find one tiny shred of verifiable proof. If it looks like a dog, walks like a dog and barks like a dog, then it's probably a dog. If we see no evidence of Gods, hear no evidence of Gods and we've been searching for thousands of years for Gods, then there probably aren't any Gods.

          April 12, 2014 at 9:06 pm |
        • kevinite

          @neverbeenhappieratheist,

          "The fact that so far we have found zero empirical evidence FOR God certainly should be seen as evidence against Gods existence."

          How does just the mere fact of lacking evidence becomes evidence in of itself , because it is not.

          "... but if we lived in some magical fairy tale where spirit beings watch over us and prayer actually works you would think we would be able to find one tiny shred of verifiable proof."

          Really, You actually think that it sounds logical that there should be evidence by now that there is an omnipotent being who does not want to be made known but rather wants us to develop our own faith in said being because if such said being is in fact omnipotent, how can one be so not only so sure as to find such evidence providing proof of such a being but also how can one ever be so sure that one could provide irrefutable proof that there is no such omnipotent who does not want to be made known but rather wants us to develop faith in said deity? We are talking about the sheer point if there is such an omnipotent being who knows what such a being could make happen? So then how can one really know that they are effectively defying the will of such a being?

          "If it looks like a dog, walks like a dog and barks like a dog, then it's probably a dog."

          The key word is "probably" not "it's". Therefore "it's" not proof.

          " If we see no evidence of Gods, hear no evidence of Gods and we've been searching for thousands of years for Gods, then there probably aren't any Gods."

          One can also say the same thing about there not being any God. If there is no walking, barking, smelling or whatever evidence showing that there is no God who does not want to be made known but rather have us develop faith in said being, then the logical thing would be to at least be open to the possibility that such a being could in fact exist and just the mere fact that you don't see something out there doesn't necessarily mean there actually is nothing out there.

          April 12, 2014 at 9:06 pm |

          April 12, 2014 at 10:47 pm |
        • Bob

          No, kevinite. Now you are being dishonest. The cases for and against the existence of your particular sky fairy are clearly not equivalent. We have shown you reasons that the stories of your hateful mythbook AKA the bible must be false, and that your god cannot exist as described therein. In addition, your Jesus-sacrifice story is complete nonsense out of the gate, and it is the foundation of your religion. How is it again that your omnipotent being couldn't do his saving bit without the whole silly Jesus hoopla? And how was Jesus' death a "sacrifice", when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers? Pretty pathetic "god" that you've made for yourself there. The foundation of your whole religion is nonsense.

          And then, the dictates of your crazy holy book, no matter how much you try to dodge them, include some awful demands purportedly from your murderous jerk of a god. let's take a look at the evil instructions in there purportedly from your vicious, murderous sky fairy. From both foul testaments:

          Numbers 31:17-18
          17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
          18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

          Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”

          Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

          Leviticus 25
          44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
          45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
          46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

          Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.

          Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.

          And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.

          So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.

          And further, ask yourself why we should have to rely on very stale, thousands-of-years-old, many-versioned old text, that is only reasonably subject to debates over its meaning. Why is it that your pathetic sky fairy can't even get with the past decade and create his own web presence (no, religious shill sites don't count), or push some tweets out? Even the pope, that creepy hider of criminal priests, could do that much, as can most children. After thousands of years of radio silence, reasonable doubt in the existence of your sky creature is easily justified, to say the least. Your absurd "god" is also apparently less capable at communication than any modern 10 year old.

          Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
          Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
          http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

          April 12, 2014 at 11:11 pm |
        • kevinite

          Wow Bob,

          I must say I'm truly amazed at your ignorance, but since you keep bringing up the same thing over and over again, here we go again:

          The reason why it had to be God's only begotten son is just that "only begotten" begotten not only in the spirit, like the rest of us, but also in the flesh. Since God was already an immortal being he could not suffer in the flesh and overcome the bonds of death on in which we are subjected to that there needed to be one who was mortal, so as to be able to suffer and die and being physically of God also able to have the power and strength to actually pay for our sins and overcome the bonds of death on our behalf.

          Of course what I'm doing is just explaining what by beliefs are and I'm not providing evidence to back up my beliefs yet I never claimed them to be anything other than beliefs. You can keep saying that I'm being dishonest as well as saying over and over again how wrong I am even though I'm not out trying to prove your beliefs are wrong; only that your beliefs are just beliefs.

          However, you never actually provide any proof that my beliefs are wrong. You just keep insisting that my beliefs are wrong. Just face it. what you have is the same thing that I have, which is a belief.

          April 12, 2014 at 11:53 pm |
        • kevinite

          Oh here is another replay Bob.

          @Bob,

          "Numbers 31:17-18
          17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
          18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

          Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”

          Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

          Leviticus 25
          44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
          45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
          46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

          Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal."

          19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

          24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

          (Galatians 3:19 and 24 KJV)

          The laws that were given in the Torah, according to Paul, were given because of the the transgressions of the Israelites in those days. Like particular children who are more unruly than others (i.e. those followers of God prior to those in Moses's day) those additional stricter laws were given to remind them of who they were and to remind them of the promises and agreements made between them and God.

          Those additional stricter laws were given as a schoolmaster in order to bring maturity and prepare to receive the more open and fulfilled laws given by Jesus Christ. When those fulfilled laws were given the previous stricter laws given through Moses were no longer applied.

          However, just like when a child becomes more mature and is given more freedoms and privileges, that the saying given by Stan Lee would apply in that with greater privileges and authority (i.e. greater power) comes greater responsibility, so to violate the laws and covenants at this level can also bring about greater eternal spiritual consequences as opposed to the more physical and more merely physically based laws that were given through Moses.

          April 13, 2014 at 12:05 am |
        • Bob

          kevinite, again, the fact is that those evil demands are presented, as documented in your despicable holy book, purportedly from your nasty sky fairy. There is no context that would reasonably make them the output of a loving creature. Let\'s take a look at them again, since that point so far has been beyond you. Try to pay more careful attention this time, especially to the points about context and interpretation that follow.

          Again, from both foul testaments of the Christian book of nasty:

          Numbers 31:17-18
          17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
          18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

          Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”

          Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

          Leviticus 25
          44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
          45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
          46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

          Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don\'t get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.

          Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it\'s in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god\'s mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.

          And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your \"god\" couldn\'t come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken \"out of context\", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you\'ve made for yourself.

          So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.

          And further, ask yourself why we should have to rely on very stale, thousands-of-years-old, many-versioned old text, that is only reasonably subject to debates over its meaning. Why is it that your pathetic sky fairy can\'t even get with the past decade and create his own web presence (no, religious shill sites don\'t count), or push some tweets out? Even the pope, that creepy hider of criminal priests, could do that much, as can most children. After thousands of years of radio silence, reasonable doubt in the existence of your sky creature is easily justified, to say the least. Your absurd \"god\" is also apparently less capable at communication than any modern 10 year old.

          Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
          Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
          http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

          April 13, 2014 at 1:31 am |
        • Bob

          kevinite, again, the fact is that those evil demands are presented, as documented in your despicable holy book, purportedly from your nasty sky fairy. There is no context that would reasonably make them the output of a loving creature. Let's take a look at them again, since that point so far has been beyond you. Try to pay more careful attention this time, especially to the points about context and interpretation that follow.

          Again, from both foul testaments of the Christian book of nasty:

          Numbers 31:17-18
          17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
          18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

          Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”

          Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

          Leviticus 25
          44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
          45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
          46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

          Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.

          Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.

          And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.

          So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.

          And further, ask yourself why we should have to rely on very stale, thousands-of-years-old, many-versioned old text, that is only reasonably subject to debates over its meaning. Why is it that your pathetic sky fairy can't even get with the past decade and create his own web presence (no, religious shill sites don't count), or push some tweets out? Even the pope, that creepy hider of criminal priests, could do that much, as can most children. After thousands of years of radio silence, reasonable doubt in the existence of your sky creature is easily justified, to say the least. Your absurd "god" is also apparently less capable at communication than any modern 10 year old.

          Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
          Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
          http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

          April 13, 2014 at 1:33 am |
        • kevinite

          Once again Bob you just keep saying how foul my beliefs are instead countering by response to the scriptures you posted and then you just keep posting the same scriptures that I already responded to. Once again it never ceases to amaze me how ignorant you are.

          April 13, 2014 at 2:29 pm |
        • Bob

          That's just another of your cowardly dodges, kevinite, and enough with the personal attacks already. Clearly I am not "ignorant" of your blood cult.. This is what your foul Christian book of nasty actually says. There is no case that can be made that such demands are from a "loving" entity. Your se.xist, bigoted sky fairy could easily be convicted of human rights abuses if only it existed. Again, as purportedly from your murderous sky fairy from both foul testaments of your book of horrors AKA the bible:

          Numbers 31:17-18
          17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
          18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

          Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”

          Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

          Leviticus 25
          44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
          45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
          46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

          Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.

          Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.

          And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.

          So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.

          And further, ask yourself why we should have to rely on very stale, thousands-of-years-old, many-versioned old text, that is only reasonably subject to debates over its meaning. Why is it that your pathetic sky fairy can't even get with the past decade and create his own web presence (no, religious shill sites don't count), or push some tweets out? Even the pope, that creepy hider of criminal priests, could do that much, as can most children. After thousands of years of radio silence, reasonable doubt in the existence of your sky creature is easily justified, to say the least. Your absurd "god" is also apparently less capable at communication than any modern 10 year old.

          Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
          Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
          http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

          April 13, 2014 at 4:35 pm |
        • neverbeenhappieratheist

          "Really, You actually think that it sounds logical that there should be evidence by now that there is an omnipotent being who does not want to be made known but rather wants us to develop our own faith in said being because if such said being is in fact omnipotent, how can one be so not only so sure as to find such evidence providing proof of such a being but also how can one ever be so sure that one could provide irrefutable proof that there is no such omnipotent who does not want to be made known but rather wants us to develop faith in said deity?"

          I did not realize my simple statement could illicit such a lengthy sentence. I'll have to assume you majored in track right?

          As to your run on question my answer is, Yes. I do think it's logical that there would be evidence. If we have the most loyal subject from every religion flipping coins while praying to their God for it to come up heads, guess what, you will get exactly the same results from every religion. You may say "well 'our' God doesn't want to be noticed", so he sneakily effects his members with answered prayers in exactly the same ratio as every other religion? Really? If you believe such then our battle of wits is at an end for I will not fight an unarmed opponent.

          April 13, 2014 at 5:44 pm |
        • kevinite

          @Bob,

          You can call me coward all you want, but you still didn't respond to the points I have made regarding the scriptures you cited referring to the laws of Moses, which was the basis for your whole soap box proclamation.

          April 13, 2014 at 7:57 pm |
        • kevinite

          @neverbeenhappieratheist,

          So your counter response ends up being " If you believe such then our battle of wits is at an end for I will not fight an unarmed opponent."

          Well, that sure is enough of a logical explanation . So, tell me since you didn't in your last response just what evidence is there that would defy all odds that there is absolutely no omnipotent being who does not want to be made known but would rather have us develop our faith in said being? Simply saying that I believe in a God that is illusive is ridiculous still doesn't answer the question, since who are you to know what a God plans for or even what a God thinks.

          Now you may also say that who am I to know what a God plans for or what a God thinks, and the answer I don't fully know and I certainly can't provide any proof to verify my beliefs. However, I never claimed that I could provide any such proof or give any reasoning that is irrefutable. My whole position regarding God has been that it is based on belief. That goes for my conclusion that there is a God who does not want to be made known but would rather have us under our own free will to develop our faith in that God, and that also goes for your conclusion as well. That it is all a matter of belief.

          April 13, 2014 at 8:33 pm |
        • Bob

          kevinite, again, my point about the lack of modern communications from your sky fairy demolishes your drivel about "Moses" entirely. So, again, time for you to do some reading, but more carefully this time:

          First, how is it that your omnipotent being couldn't do his saving bit without the whole silly Jesus hoopla? And how was Jesus' death a "sacrifice", when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers? Pretty pathetic "god" that you've made for yourself there. The foundation of your whole despicable religion is nonsense.

          Furthermore, your Christian book of nasty, AKA the bible, contains some pretty nasty demands of you purportedly from your omnipotent sky creature. Take a look at these, from both foul testaments of that document:

          Numbers 31:17-18
          17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
          18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

          Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”

          Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

          Leviticus 25
          44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
          45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
          46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

          Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.

          Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.

          And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.

          So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.

          And further, ask yourself why we should have to rely on very stale, thousands-of-years-old, many-versioned old text, that is only reasonably subject to debates over its meaning. Why is it that your pathetic sky fairy can't even get with the past decade and create his own web presence (no, religious shill sites don't count), or push some tweets out? Even the pope, that creepy hider of criminal priests, could do that much, as can most children. After thousands of years of radio silence, reasonable doubt in the existence of your sky creature is easily justified, to say the least. Your absurd "god" is also apparently less capable at communication than any modern 10 year old.

          Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
          Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
          http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

          April 13, 2014 at 9:26 pm |
        • kevinite

          @Bob,

          19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

          24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

          (Galatians 3:19 and 24 KJV)

          The laws that were given in the Torah, according to Paul, were given because of the the transgressions of the Israelites in those days. Like particular children who are more unruly than others (i.e. those followers of God prior to those in Moses's day) those additional stricter laws were given to remind them of who they were and to remind them of the promises and agreements made between them and God.

          Those additional stricter laws were given as a schoolmaster in order to bring maturity and prepare to receive the more open and fulfilled laws given by Jesus Christ. When those fulfilled laws were given the previous stricter laws given through Moses were no longer applied.

          However, just like when a child becomes more mature and is given more freedoms and privileges, that the saying given by Stan Lee would apply in that with greater privileges and authority (i.e. greater power) comes greater responsibility, so to violate the laws and covenants at this level can also bring about greater eternal spiritual consequences as opposed to the more physical and more merely physically based laws that were given through Moses.

          April 14, 2014 at 1:09 am |
        • kevinite

          So Bob,

          Let me guess? If you are going to respond to this the chances appear to be likely that you are going to give the same same shpeel over again. The same shpeel I already responded to and which you just keep ignoring that which I already responded to.

          April 14, 2014 at 1:15 am |
        • Bob

          kevinite, one of several key points that you've been unable to counter is that those horrid instructions from your murderous sky creature are there at all, and cannot be the work of a loving god. No amount of counter-quoting from your nasty holy book is going to help you there, and there is clearly no modern communication by your "god" that you are able to produce. Further, you need to consider that your whole Jesus-sacrifice spiel, the core of your idiotic beliefs, is nonsense out of the gate. How is it that your omnipotent being couldn't do his saving bit without the whole silly Jesus hoopla? And how was Jesus' death a "sacrifice", when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers? Pretty pathetic "god" that you've made for yourself there. The foundation of your whole religion is nonsense.

          Let's now take a look at the evil instructions in your nasty holy book AKA the bible, purportedly from your vicious, murderous sky fairy. These are direct quotes from both foul testaments, albeit from one of the many versions – another point discussed briefly below:

          Numbers 31:17-18
          17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
          18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

          Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”

          Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

          Leviticus 25
          44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
          45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
          46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

          Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.

          Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.

          And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.

          So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.

          And further, ask yourself why we should have to rely on very stale, thousands-of-years-old, many-versioned old text, that is only reasonably subject to debates over its meaning. Why is it that your pathetic sky fairy can't even get with the past decade and create his own web presence (no, religious shill sites don't count), or push some tweets out? Even the pope, that creepy hider of criminal priests, could do that much, as can most children. After thousands of years of radio silence, reasonable doubt in the existence of your sky creature is easily justified, to say the least. Your absurd "god" is also apparently less capable at communication than any modern 10 year old.

          Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
          Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
          http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

          April 14, 2014 at 10:44 am |
        • kevinite

          Hey Bob,

          "kevinite, one of several key points that you've been unable to counter is that those horrid instructions from your murderous sky creature are there at all, and cannot be the work of a loving god."

          You keep ignoring that the Old Testament scriptures you keep referring to came from "the law of Moses". All of those "horrid" commandments you were referring to in the Old Testament were in fact given through Moses in Moses's day to the Israelites because as opposed to prior to Moses's day the Israelites in Moses's day were in a greater state of transgression, and like putting in heavier discipline on more unruly children, so the heavier physically imposing laws of Moses were put in place by The Lord which served as what the apostle Paul referred to as the school master to prepare the Israelites to mature and able to receive the fulfilled higher laws given by Jesus.

          Those scriptures you keep referring to over and over again in the Old Testament I did in fact answer to and you keep ignoring that I even responded to. That is why I'm sooo astonished by your ignorance.

          "How is it that your omnipotent being couldn't do his saving bit without the whole silly Jesus hoopla? And how was Jesus' death a "sacrifice", when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers? "

          Once again, I already responded to that over and over again and yet instead of actually countering what my response was, you just keep ignoring it and pretend like I never even responded to the question in the first place. I already went into the whole shpeel about there being natural laws in which even God adheres to and if one violates those natural laws, which we know about through the commandments from God that justice has to be meant and that the price has to be paid, and even God, as powerful as he is cannot just ignore or override those natural laws.

          However, God did find a way to take care of this problem but it had to involve the sacrifice of his only begotten son. Unlike the rest of us Jesus was not just God's son in the spirit, but he is also God's son in the flesh as well. When Jesus was born into this world through the mortal Mary, Jesus was capable of suffering for sins and physically die on our behalf, which is something God the Father cannot do because he was already immortal, and yet Jesus being also the son of God the Father in the flesh also made it so that Jesus had the power or ability and strength to actually pay the price and suffer for all of our sins on our behalf. Jesus was also the only one in the position to overcome the bonds of physical death as well. Jesus made those sacrifices so that justice would be satisfied because the payment was made and that even though we will all die physically we will all eventually be resurrected.

          Also, through Jesus suffering and paying the price for our sins makes it so that despite our own failings we can still be able to receive salvation and return to God the Father in our resurrected bodies if we do the best we can in following the commandments given to us and enduring to follow the teachings of Jesus to the end of our mortal lives, then the rest of our debt from our sins would be settled with Jesus since Jesus had already paid our price through his suffering for our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane.

          April 14, 2014 at 11:41 am |
        • otoh2

          kevinite,

          Why would a god tell Moses such dumb, incorrect stuff such as:

          - You cure leprosy by having a dove killed, dipping a live one in its blood and having it fly around. Also, you have to anoint the toes of the suffer with the blood.
          - You discover unfaithful wives when their bellies swell and their thighs rot after they are made to drink some magical water.
          - Prized striped goats are bred by having the mating parents stare at striped objects.
          – You may buy, own, sell, and will slaves to your descendants (only foreigners for slaves, though, no Israelis)

          There are several other similar instances of absolute rubbish that this "God" "spoke", along with a bunch of other rules and laws that are obviously only from the minds of primitive men. How anyone can believe that this stuff came from a real smart divine being is ludicrous.

          Moses lied about having been spoken to by this "Lord God" character. Some of Moses's rules and laws may have been beneficial for the times to civilize a somewhat barbarian, tribal culture; but that they were spoken by some god is preposterous.

          April 14, 2014 at 12:01 pm |
        • kevinite

          @otoh,

          I'll respond by asking you this question? Why did you list all of those examples without citing the specific scriptural references you basing your examples? After all, you wouldn't be just putting those examples down with nothing but your own words so as to put only your spin on it, would you?

          April 14, 2014 at 9:50 pm |
        • observer

          kevinite,

          The fact that you don't know where any of those "facts" comes from in the Bible just shows that you really aren't familiar with what the Bible says.

          Seriously, why not spend time reading a full Bible and then come back?

          April 14, 2014 at 10:00 pm |
      • Madtown

        there are laws to which even God adheres to and respects.
        ----
        How do you claim to know this for certain, and where are these laws referenced?

        April 12, 2014 at 12:24 pm |
  17. Vic

    ♰♰♰ Jesus Christ Is Lord ♰♰♰

    John 8:23
    "23 And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.”" (NASB)

    Dating this piece to between the sixth & ninth centuries CE does not mean its content is true. False testimonies existed all along since the time of Jesus Christ. Also, this piece would definitely be considered 'apocryphal.'

    Regarding the role of women in the church, I am a firm believer in that. We have the epitome of that in Jesus Christ appearing to women first and commissioning a woman to deliver the news of His resurrection to all the Disciples. Accordingly, many Christians consider the first priest in church history to be a woman.

    Now, regarding Apostle Paul's notion on the role of women in the church, he was dealing with cultural constraints that would've prevented delivering the "Good News" of the Lord Jesus Christ if he confessed otherwise. Apostle Paul explained that in some of his Epistles.

    1 Corinthians 9:20-23
    "20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. 23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it." (NASB)

    April 12, 2014 at 10:37 am |
    • Madtown

      ♰♰♰ Jesus Christ Is Lord ♰♰♰
      --–
      You must consider yourself very fortunate, that God placed you by birth in a world region where christianity is prevalent and practice. Many of your equal human brothers and sisters have been placed, by God, into other regions where christianity does not exist. Is Jesus Lord for them?

      April 12, 2014 at 10:43 am |
    • bostontola

      "Dating this piece to between the sixth & ninth centuries CE does not mean its content is true"

      Vic, I doubt that even .00001% of people think the content of the fragment is true. Most have no opinion and don't care.

      Who deems the content of an ancient texts true with no corroborating evidence anyway?

      April 12, 2014 at 10:52 am |
      • Tuscany Dream

        The Council of Nicea?

        April 12, 2014 at 11:40 am |
        • bostontola

          And virtually every Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, etc.

          April 12, 2014 at 11:57 am |
    • alonsoquixote

      Vic, you write "he was dealing with cultural constraints that would've prevented delivering the "Good News" of the Lord Jesus Christ if he confessed otherwise." So you acknowledge that the early believers often tailored their message to what they knew those hearing the message wanted to believe and that what they said didn't always reflect the will of an almighty god, but "cultural constraints" regarding how they could present the god's view.

      In regards to your comment "False testimonies existed all along since the time of Jesus Christ", yes, there were many other writings and "Gospels" written, not just the ones the Early Church Fathers picked to include in the New Testament. There was the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Judas, Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Peter, Gospel of Mary and others. You, apparently can recognize that people made up stories about Jesus from the very beginnings of Christianity, but can't recognize that the ones considered canonical are also fictional.

      Why are there 4 Gospels and not 3 or 6, since there were a lot of other books available for the Early Church Fathers to incorporate in the biblical canon. Basically because one of the Early Fathers of the Church, Irenaeus, liked the number four. He wrote "It is not possible that the gospels can be either more or fewer in number than they are. For, since there are four-quarters of the earth in which we live, and four universal winds, while the church is scattered throughout all the world, and the 'pillar and ground' of the church is the gospel and the spirit of life, it is fitting that she should have four pillars breathing out immortality on every side, and vivifying men afresh…Therefore the gospels are in accord with these things… For the living creatures are quadriform and the gospel is quadriform…"

      Of course, there isn't one agreed upon canon for all Christians. Different denominations don't even agree on what books are authoritative and should be included in the canon even today for either the Old or New Testaments. I.e., Protestant Bibles have a different number of books than Catholic ones and those two groups have Bibles with different books than those of Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Christians – see the tables for the Old Testament and New Testament in the Wikipedia article "biblical canon" for a list of books included in today's Bibles for various branches of Christianity.

      Even among Protestant Christians, though they may have the same books in their Bibles, there is no consensus about what material is authentic and inspired by Yahweh and what was inserted by later scribes, i.e., what verses are interpolated. Some believe the Comma Johanneum in the First Epistle of John (1 John 5:7–8) and the Pericope Adulterae from verses 7:53-8:11 of the Gospel of John.are interpolations, while others believe they are the work of the original authors.

      Though Pauline Christianity came to be the dominant form of Christianity, in the early days of Christianity that view was competing with that of the Judaizers, e.g., sects such as the Ebionites and Nazarenes, who though believing in the stories of Jesus as a messiah, advocated adherence to the Mosaic Law. If the Pauline view hadn't triumphed, doubtless Christianity would have remained no more than a marginal sect among the many competing religions of that time.

      April 12, 2014 at 12:29 pm |
      • Vic

        First sighting of this reply: Today @ around 8:00 pm.

        I really appreciate this thoughtful and well rounded reply.

        I would like to note that while "Comma Johanneum" and "Pericope Adulterae" have been debated for centuries, and Apostle Paul confined his message to certain cultures of the Jews and Gentiles in many of his Epistles, that was all to lead up to the ratiocination of God's "Ultimate Provision" for our Salvation in the "Passion of Jesus Christ," which along with the Trinity are attested to in various other passages throughout the Old and New Testaments. So, the "Final Message" is the same in the end, that is the "Good News" of Jesus Christ, Salvation by the Grace of God through Faith ALONE in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, hence the end of the "Dispensation of Law" and the reign of the "Dispensation of Grace."

        April 12, 2014 at 8:34 pm |
  18. truthfollower01

    Bostontola,

    "Some religious people can’t understand how atheists can be satisfied with non-absolute morality."

    On atheism, humans can invent morality but it is merely an illusion.
    Think about this. On a subjective view of morality, a man can choose to decide that murder is morally evil and can base that opinion on external references such as the golden rule or he can decide that murder is morally good and base this opinion on other external references, such as for personal power. As sick as this is, each choice is equal with regards to morality on atheism.

    "1. Different denominations have different interpretations of various rules.
    2. Different denominations cherry pick rules differently."

    When you say "rules", are you referring to morals?

    "3. The biblical morals are primitive and not what we would want to live with today.

    Regarding 3, there are ancient rules regarding slavery, women, and punishment to children of transgressors we would not tolerate today."

    You may not tolerate them but on atheism, are they morally wrong and if so, why? I also believe that an atheist can run off a laundry list of acts they deem morally wrong without really looking into the context of the verses they are using. In the past, I have responded in depth to a question regarding slavery as presented in Exodus 21:7,8. I can repost my answer if needed.

    "Reality is, absolute morality means static morality. Humans have developed much better morality in the last 2000 years."

    Says who? On atheism, who or what determines what "better" morality is and why do they get to do so?

    "Religious people have adapted with the various denominations and slavery is no longer allowed."

    Jesus did not come to overthrow the political system of Rome. He came to defeat death. Also, keep in mind Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 7:21
    "Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so."

    As an end note, if we can establish that one thing and only one thing is objectively morally evil or good, then objective morality exists. So I ask you a question regarding the following scenario. About 9 years ago in Florida, a 9 year old little girl named Jessica was kidnapped, mol-ested multiple times and then buried alive in a plastic bag. According to Wikipedia, after the police found her, "Her body had undergone "moderate" to "severe" decomposition and according to the publicly released autopsy reports was skeletonized on two fingers that Lunsford had poked through the bags before suffocating to death."
    Was the act of the mol-ester objectively morally evil?

    April 12, 2014 at 10:17 am |
    • Bob

      tf, it's great that you are asking questions. However, another question that you should be asking yourself is how inventing a deity addresses any of the problems that you pose. You keep harping about Jesus taking away death, but that whole Jesus-sacrifice-salvation story is utter nonsense, nothing more. How is it that your omnipotent being couldn't do his saving bit without the whole silly Jesus hoopla? And how was Jesus' death a "sacrifice", when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers? The foundation of your whole religion is nonsense, and as such does not present any basis for an absolute morality to begin with.

      Furthermore, such bases for morals as your religion presents have shifted with time. The early 10 commandments have more to do with kowtowing to your nasty, vengeant sky creature than to a valid moral standard. Later Christian moral doctrine is inferior and less fundamental to the Golden Rule in general, and some of it is quite bigoted. So, you really should be looking elsewhere for the backbone of this moral code that you seek.

      Finally, your Christian doctrine of your holy book, the Christian bible does require you to do some pretty horrid things, something that Christians gloss over. Here are some of the demands that it places on you, purportedly from your god. These are not an acceptable framework for a workable and moral doctrine, and certainly not for an absolute moral code: In fact, the "deity" purportedly behind them should be convicted of human rights abuses, and would be by any modern HR court:

      Numbers 31:17-18
      17 Now kiII all the boys. And kiII every woman who has slept with a man,
      18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

      Deuteronomy 13:6 – “If your brother, your mother’s son or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul entice you secretly, saying, let us go and serve other gods … you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death”

      Revelation 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

      Leviticus 25
      44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.
      45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.
      46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

      Note that the bible is also very clear that you should sacrifice and burn an animal today because the smell makes sicko Christian sky fairy happy. No, you don't get to use the parts for food. You burn them, a complete waste of the poor animal.

      Yes, the bible really says that, everyone. Yes, it's in Leviticus, look it up. Yes, Jesus purportedly said that the OT commands still apply. No exceptions. But even if you think the OT was god's mistaken first go around, you have to ask why a perfect, loving enti-ty would ever put such horrid instructions in there. If you think rationally at all, that is.

      And then, if you disagree with my interpretation, ask yourself how it is that your "god" couldn't come up with a better way to communicate than a book that is so readily subject to so many interpretations and to being taken "out of context", and has so many mistakes in it. Pretty pathetic god that you've made for yourself.

      So get out your sacrificial knife or your nasty sky creature will torture you eternally. Or just take a closer look at your foolish supersti-tions, understand that they are just silly, and toss them into the dustbin with all the rest of the gods that man has created.

      And further, ask yourself why we should have to rely on very stale, thousands-of-years-old, many-versioned old text, that is only reasonably subject to debates over its meaning. Why is it that your pathetic sky fairy can't even get with the past decade and create his own web presence (no, religious shill sites don't count), or push some tweets out? Even the pope, that creepy hider of criminal priests, could do that much, as can most children. After thousands of years of radio silence, reasonable doubt in the existence of your sky creature is easily justified, to say the least. Your absurd "god" is also apparently less capable at communication than any modern 10 year old.

      Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
      Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
      http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

      April 12, 2014 at 10:41 am |
      • truthfollower01

        Bob,

        "How is it that your omnipotent being couldn’t do his saving bit without the whole silly Jesus hoopla?"

        The wages of sin is death. Sin is a very serious offense to a holy and perfectly righteous God. It's not a trivial matter as shown in Jesus' death.

        "And how was Jesus’ death a “sacrifice”, when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers?"

        You do know that Jesus IS God, right?

        "The early 10 commandments have more to do with kowtowing to your nasty, vengeant sky creature than to a valid moral standard. "

        You have an issue with commands to not commit murder, adultery, do not steal, lie, etc.?

        "Finally, your Christian doctrine of your holy book, the Christian bible does require you to do some pretty horrid things"

        On atheism, why is anything "horrid" or as I've asked you in the past, on atheism, why is anything evil?

        April 12, 2014 at 10:57 am |
        • Madtown

          Sin is a very serious offense to a holy and perfectly righteous God
          ---
          How do you know this? If Jesus is God, why did he pray to his father on the cross? Wouldn't that mean he'd be praying to himself?

          April 12, 2014 at 11:06 am |
        • truthfollower01

          Madtown,

          Are you familiar with the doctrine of the Trinity?

          April 12, 2014 at 11:14 am |
        • alonsoquixote

          What many take issue with is the god's command that adulterers must be put to death (Leviticus 20:10) and the many other edicts about all the people Yahweh wants his followers to kill. E.g., gays (Leviticus 20:13), rebellious sons (Deuteronomy 21:18-21), fortune tellers and wizards (Leviticus 20:27), unbelievers (2 Chronicles 15:12-13), witches (Exodus 22:18), anyone who won't listen to one of his priests (Deuteronomy 17:12), and so many others.

          You ask "You do know that Jesus IS God, right?" That's the trinitarian view, though not all Christians today are trinitarians. At Christianity's inception there was disagreement as to whether Jesus was also God. The Arians viewed him as a subordinate being. The First Council of Nicaea which was convened by Constantine I to cement control of the Roman empire under a common religion adopted trinitarianism as the orthodox view, but Arianism persisted for many centuries afterwards despite attempts to wipe it out. E.g., it was Arian Goths who conquered and sacked Rome centuries later. The doctine was more followly developed at the Council of Constantinople in 360 A.D., which was convened by the Roman Emperor Constantius II. At that council, the deacons Aëtius and Eunomius declared that the Son was of a dissimilar substance from the Father. Constantius banished Aëtius, after which the council agreed to the ho_moian creed that the Son was of similar substance to the Father But even today there are many denominations, that don't adhere to the trinitarian view that the "Father", "Son", and "Holy Spirt" are hypostases, i.e., consubstantial enti_ties.

          But, if one accepts your view, then the god was sacrificing himself to himself to ameliorate the ancient curse he placed on all of mankind when the first couple ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil leading him to fear that they would eat also of the tree of life and become immortal like himself, so he cursed them and banished them from the garden placing a Cherub (or the archangel Uriel in a some traditions) with a flaming sword at the entrace to Eden least the first couple should re-enter the paradise from which he had banished them.

          April 12, 2014 at 11:35 am |
        • Madtown

          Are you familiar with the doctrine of the Trinity?
          ---
          I am! The concept was created, by early church leaders, around the 2nd century, I believe? Regardless, like other elements of religion, it's a man-made concept.

          April 12, 2014 at 12:20 pm |
    • bostontola

      Truth,
      I used "rules" as a shorthand for morals. There are other kinds of rules of course, but some rules define moral boundaries, those are what was referring to.

      Atheism doesn't have rules and it doesn't have its own morality because it's not a religion. Atheism is a position on 1 thing, is there a God. Why would a position have morality. Most atheists in the US have American morality as established in our laws and regulations. We live in a secular society. I enjoy the benefits of that society and abide by its laws because they protect us all and provide mutual benefit to all. It's not an atheist thing.

      Who says our moral system today is better than the biblical? Again, it's not an atheist thing, it's a secular society thing. Our laws have adapted to free society, we've learned, gotten more experience with real world subtle cases and have developed a better system. Who says so? The people, religious and atheist. We live, work, and play together with unprecedented success. All religions and atheists with equal rights and opportunity. Not everyone agrees, but most do.

      Is there absolute morality? I would say there are cases where the morality/immorality of a case could be (close to) unanimous. All people would agree. If you want to call that absolute, that's ok with me. But it doesn't come from God. How do I know? Because people from different religions and atheists agree. We create our own laws. It is through a political process. We are self regulating. Over time we get better at it.

      Don't get me wrong, the biblical law and morality was hugely important and advanced mankind of that era. It had remarkable duration. But it is not up to today's standards. It's not universally bad, it has some bad parts, but mostly it's just oversimplified as any first draft would be.

      April 12, 2014 at 10:46 am |
      • truthfollower01

        Bostontola,

        To narrow down the conversation a little bit.

        "Is there absolute morality? I would say there are cases where the morality/immorality of a case could be (close to) unanimous."

        On atheism, if someone disagrees, are they wrong? If, say, the molester in the scenario I provided thought what he did was morally good, on atheism, would he be wrong and if so, why?

        "If you want to call that absolute, that’s ok with me. But it doesn’t come from God. How do I know? Because people from different religions and atheists agree."

        The Christian view is that God has written His moral truths on the hearts of men, both atheists and Christians.

        April 12, 2014 at 11:12 am |
        • Doris

          My OP above at 11:22 answers the issue of absolute morality.

          April 12, 2014 at 11:25 am |
        • bostontola

          Truth,
          If we are going to have a conversation, I would ask that you read the posts. I went into some detail to explain that this isn't an atheism thing. Atheism is a position on 1 point, not a creed, religion, or anything like that. Atheists have as varied opinions on things as any group of say stamp collectors. Atheism is not a moral system, it is a position on 1 point. In the US, atheists have morality that is aligned with American culture, laws, and regulations. We agree to follow it because most are not anarchists. We like the social contract where we agree to respect each other and the law.

          April 12, 2014 at 11:29 am |
        • neverbeenhappieratheist

          Some people like lots of NFL teams. Others root for only one NFL team, usually the team from the hometown where they were born. And still others don't root for any NFL teams and feel the whole concept of the NFL is injurious to society.

          April 12, 2014 at 11:35 am |
        • truthfollower01

          Bostontola,

          "Atheism is not a moral system, it is a position on 1 point. In the US, atheists have morality that is aligned with American culture, laws, and regulations."

          That position carries HUGE impacts on one's worldview. Also, do you believe that other cultures, laws and regulations that may contradict Americas are incorrect or wrong? If you grew up in Nazi Germany and were raised to believe that exterminating the Jews was a morally good thing, would you be correct in that view? Remember, the Holocaust was done legally.

          April 12, 2014 at 11:37 am |
        • bostontola

          "That position carries HUGE impacts on one's worldview."
          That is your opinion, I don't agree.

          "Also, do you believe that other cultures, laws and regulations that may contradict Americas are incorrect or wrong? "
          That depends on the specific law, not in general.

          "If you grew up in Nazi Germany and were raised to believe that exterminating the Jews was a morally good thing, would you be correct in that view? Remember, the Holocaust was done legally."
          I have no idea what I would believe or think if I grew up in Nazi Germany. As it is, what they did was immoral by my actual beliefs. It was anti-social. No religion is required to see that, or (essentially) all religions can see that.

          April 12, 2014 at 11:55 am |
        • alonsoquixote

          Bostonola, you wrote "If you grew up in Nazi Germany and were raised to believe that exterminating the Jews was a morally good thing, would you be correct in that view? Remember, the Holocaust was done legally." Also, one should remember how Hitler justified his campaign of extermination against the Jews.

          In his autobiography, Mein Kampf (My Struggle), he wrote "“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”

          In a speech in Munich on April 12, 1922, Hitler said:

          "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice..."

          And one should remember it was a long history of anti-antisemitism among European Christians who viewed the Jews as regicides, since the Gospel writers, to avoid making a Roman leader the villain in their stories, portrayed Pilate as reluctant to execute Jesus, but forced to do so by Jewish priests and a Jewish mob. That ploy certainly helped in winning converts among Romans, so that the new religion cold eventually even win an emperor, Constantine I as an ally in promulgating the new faith when he adopted Christianity to help cement his control of the Roman empire under a common religion, but it resulted in thousands of Jews being slaughtered by Christians over the subsequent centuries in various European nations. The German Holocaust under Hitler was certainly not the first pogrom against Jews, only the most extensive.

          April 12, 2014 at 6:32 pm |
        • alonsoquixote

          That should have been "truthfollower01, you wrote ""If you grew up in Nazi Germany and were raised to believe that exterminating the Jews was a morally good thing..."

          April 12, 2014 at 6:38 pm |
        • truthfollower01

          Alonso,

          The speech you quote is from 1922. Go watch the "180" movie on YouTube to see what Hitler thought about Christianity later in life.

          April 12, 2014 at 7:44 pm |
    • Alias

      @truthfollower1
      You have done a nice job avoiding the actual issues here. The bible allows slavery. Do you think owning another person is moral? I would hope not. Slavery allows 'owners' to use and punish their 'property' as they see fit. If you don't think that is immoral then you in a very small minority and should seek professional help.
      Different denominations do interpret the rules differently. Dancing, drinking, se.x, and slavery have all been treated differently by different denominations in the last few hundred years. Do I need to give examples? For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge was put on graves of some people who had se.x before marriage. Was that moral? Southern baptists split from the northern baptists because they wanted to keep their slaves. It is moral according to your bible.
      Next you attack atheism for not having any moral code that can be defended, "You may not tolerate them but on atheism, are they morally wrong and if so, why? " What kind of a stupid question is that?? Are you attempting to justify the evil in the bible by accusing others of being evil too? Or are you thinking because the bible says you should be moral in other places that we should ignore the evil parts? Your presupposition that all non-christians have no morals is childish and stupid. Keep in mind that the golden rule was being taught centuries before your jesus was born. Where do you suppose they got the same morals without a bible to tell them?
      Even though we can agree that some acts are appropriately called evil, that does not remove the subjective nature of morality. Even if we can all agree on some things being big or small, that will not mean big and small are never subjective.

      April 12, 2014 at 10:50 am |
      • oreolu

        Dear Alias,

        If there is a creator of the universe who chooses to relate to humanity in a certain way (good to me from His revelation as I read the bible as carefully as I can and in the blessedness of my life; bad to you for reasons of your own), on what rational basis will any human question Him? I sincerely hope that you don’t think I’m “avoiding the actual issues here”. Please let me know if you would care for me to elaborate.

        While I don’t dispute that atheists have a sense of morality (indeed, the bible agrees with you on that in Romans 2:14-15), something that I’ve been wondering about lately is how atheists can rationally choose not to reject that sense of morality. Perhaps you or others of atheistic persuasions can weigh in on this issue. What is “good”? What is “right”?

        April 13, 2014 at 5:13 am |
    • alonsoquixote

      Exodus 21:7-8 is but one of many passages in the Bible supportive of slavery. E.g., there is Exodus 21:20-21 (King James Version):

      "And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money."

      It was the Bible that American slaveholders pointed to for justification of slavery.

      There are passages in the Bible that support misogyny and many practices, supposedly commanded by Yahweh, that would be morally abhorrent to most by today's standards. Fortunately, most Christians today choose to simply dismiss much of the abhorrent morality of the Old Testament, claiming that once Yahweh incarnated himself in human form in the first century, he rescinded those dictates. They claim that after he sacrificed himself to himself, people no longer had to adhere to his previous dictates given when he was but the national god of the Israelites. Of course, people living in Australia, China, Europe, the New World, etc. prior to that time were unaware of the 613 commandments and all of the edicts regarding the people that Yahweh wanted killed that applied to his favorites, the Jewish tribes. But once he sacrificed himself to himself, they were required to believe he had done so, if they wished to escape eternal punishment in the afterlife, even though it would be many centuries subsequent to that time when the notice of that requirement would reach them.

      April 12, 2014 at 10:58 am |
  19. bostontola

    Commonly made assertion: The bibles are the perfect word of a perfect God.

    My definition of perfect must be different than the people that assert this. I define perfect to be without error and internal contradiction, it must be free of ambiguity. The bibles don't meet my definition. Bats are not birds, the ration of a circle's circu.mfrence and diameter is not 3, there is a long list.

    Some explain these are errors of translation. Perhaps. But errors are errors, if the translation is wrong then the bible you are reading is not perfect. Some explain that the bible is not a science book or math book. True, but it is still imperfect. Some explain that human intellect is incapable of full understanding. OK, but then it is not perfect for human use, only suitable for Gods.

    When it comes to ambiguity, there are few historical docu.ments as ambiguous. The bible has spawned over 42,000 denominations, each with their own particular take on what the bible means, which verses are most important, and how to interpret the verses that contradict our innate morality (e.g. slavery).

    Conclusion, the assertion that the bible is perfect is overtly false on many fronts.

    April 12, 2014 at 9:55 am |
    • kermit4jc

      bad logic..first of all..the Bible does not claim to be a scince book..second.the BIble is a message to HUMANS..not to God...and God will use terms and things that HUMANS understand...at the time they did not know all about animals..such as bats not being birds..etc....God was not there to correct that term cause he had weighteier matters to content with.....bats being bords or not pales I comparison that God is trying to teach some spiritual lessons..not scientific lessons....use the context pleas next time

      April 13, 2014 at 8:47 am |
  20. James XCIX

    "And holding people accountable for committing acts of evil is always just."

    According to fundamentalist Christian principles, all acts of sin are equally bad, so having a lustful thought or telling a lie are just as bad as killing thousands of innocent people. So, how many acts of evil have you committed today?

    April 12, 2014 at 8:54 am |
    • James XCIX

      Sorry, that was intended as a reply to blessed137 below.

      April 12, 2014 at 8:55 am |
    • blessed137

      Jesus Christ took my sins upon himself. So the lustful thought i had today, sorry Lord please help me overcome this, has been paid for. Thank you Jesus. I can do nothing without you. thank you for forgiving a wicked sinner.

      April 12, 2014 at 7:38 pm |
      • James XCIX

        I don't understand how that qualifies as holding you accountable in the same way you seem to feel others will be held accountable for their acts of evil.

        April 12, 2014 at 10:33 pm |
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
Advertisement
About this blog

The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.