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April 14th, 2014
06:06 PM ET

The accused Kansas killer's neo-pagan religion

By Daniel Burke, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor [twitter-follow screen_name='BurkeCNN']

(CNN) - Frazier Glenn Cross is a white supremacist, an avowed anti-Semite and an accused killer. But he is not, as many think, a Christian.

Cross, who also goes by the name Glenn Miller, is accused of killing three people - all Christians - on Sunday at Jewish institutions in Overland Park, Kansas.

Authorities are weighing whether to file hate-crime charges against Cross, who is suspected of targeting Jews.

The 73-year-old has espoused anti-Semitism for decades. He also founded racist groups like a branch of the Ku Klux Klan and the White Patriot Party, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center.

Both groups have deep ties to Christian white supremacists.

But according to Cross' 1999 biography, he is an adherent of Odinism, a neo-pagan religion that experts say has emerged as one the most vicious strains in the white supremacist movement.

"The faith’s obsession with genetic purity, racial supremacy and conquering supposedly lesser peoples is a recipe for violence," said Josh Glasstetter, campaign director for the Southern Poverty Law Center.

Cross writes in his autobiography, "A White Man Speaks Out":

I'd love to see North America's 100 million Aryan Christians convert to the religion invented by their own race and practiced for a thousand generations before the Jews thought up Christianity.

Odinism! This was the religion for a strong heroic people, the Germanic people, from whose loins we all descended, be we German, English, Scott, Irish, or Scandinavian, in whole or in part.

Odin! Odin! Odin! Was the battle cry of our ancestors; their light eyes ablaze with the glare of the predator, as they swept over and conquered the decadent multi-racial Roman Empire.

And Valhalla does not accept Negroes. There's a sign over the pearly gates there which reads, "Whites only."

Odin, often depicted with a white beard and long robe, is chief among the Norse gods, whose pantheon includes Thor, the god of thunder, and Loki, the mischief-maker

In 2010, a white nationalist group, the Council of Conservative Citizens, boycotted the movie "Thor" because it cast a black actor, Idris Elba, as a Norse god.

Cross writes in his autobiography, which remains posted on his website, that he has prayed for Odin to spark a race war in the United States.

On Sunday, Cross "appears to have been acting out a violent fantasy, with himself cast as the brave Odinist warrior of his imagination,"  Glasstetter said.

What the killings at Kansas Jewish sites say about U.S. hate groups

Though Odinism has been appropriated by white racists, most adherents are peaceful, earth-loving pagans (some followers prefer the name "heathen"), said Jonathan White, an expert on religious extremists and a professor at Grand Valley State University in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

An ancient Viking religion, Odinism resurfaced in northern Germany in the 19th century, where Nazis later appropriated its themes and gods.

Odinist mythology "was a bedrock belief for key Third Reich leaders, and it was an integral part of the initiation rites and cosmology of the elite Schutzstaffel (SS), which supervised Adolf Hitler's network of death camps," according to the Southern Poverty Law Center.

Odinism also influenced the creation of the American Nazi Party, which was founded in 1959.

Odinism has lately gained in popularity among white supremacists who believe that Jesus is too peaceful and too Jewish to worship, White said.  "It's hard to get a violent god out of Jesus."

The Southern Poverty Law Center warns of a Odinist network run out of  a California prison, where Asatru, another neopagan religion with roots in Iceland, has also taken root.

"Racist versions of Odinism and its Icelandic version, Asatru, have become increasingly popular theologies among imprisoned racists and others on the radical right in recent years," said the Southern Poverty Law Center in a 2009 report. 

Peaceful neo-pagans, meanwhile, have strongly condemned white supremacists who appropriate their religion.

"I want to say that Frazier Glenn Cross is a monster, and it cannot be denied that he's not alone," said Josh Rood, an expert on Asatru at the University of Iceland. "The prison systems, and the white separatist movements have been bastardizing Asatru beliefs, symbols, and myths for a long time."

However, Rood said, white supremacists form a minority - albeit a loud and violent one - of a peaceful and proudly multicultural religion.

Several mainstream neo-pagan and self-described heathen groups have strongly denounced Sunday's killings and are raising money for the victims.

Cross' own public proclamations of faith seem to have taken several twists.

David Embree, a religious studies professor at Missouri State University, said Cross presented himself as a traditional monotheist when he ran for Congress in 2008.

But when he spoke at Embree's classroom in 2012, his views had apparently changed, the professor said.

"He essentially self-identified as an atheist," Embree said. "The more overtly Christian groups in Southern Missouri have pretty much shunned him."

Cross's second in command at the White Patriot Party, Stephen Miller, is a member of the Christian Identity movement, which claims that whites are the "true people of God."

"Though I shared that particular belief, I did not agree with others," Cross writes in his autobiography.

"Christianity is the second biggest trick the Jews ever played on us," he later writes. "The biggest was legalized abortion!"

White said he sometimes refers to the violent strain of Odinism as "Nordic Christianity" because many American adherents borrow from both in creating their racist ideology.

In his autobiography, Cross blends Christianity and Odinism in describing his ideal funeral.

He writes that he would like to be buried in his White Patriot Party uniform. The music would include "The Old Rugged Cross," the venerable Christian hymn, and "Ride of the Valkyries," an opera piece appropriated for Nazi propaganda.

This is how Cross closes the book: "Praise Odin, pass the ammunition, Sieg Heil, and Heil Hitler!"

- CNN Religion Editor

Filed under: Belief • Christianity • Crime • Discrimination • Neo-Nazi • Neopaganism • Prejudice • Religious violence • Violence

soundoff (1,048 Responses)
  1. Theo Phileo

    The fact that he is not a Christian (having committed the crimes that he did) has got to be the biggest "no-duh" of the year...

    April 15, 2014 at 7:29 am |
    • Doc Vestibule

      I admit that I jumped to the conclusion that he would've called himself some type of Christian.
      But you have to admit that usually when one hears of anti-semitic terrorists in a non-muslim country, it turns out to be a member of the KKK, The Army of God, the Aryan Nations, the Phineas Priesthood or some other nutbar white supremacist American Baptist sect.

      April 15, 2014 at 8:15 am |
      • Theo Phileo

        That is the first assumption for sure! They all claim to be Christian which is really annoying quite honestly. There's nothing, no commandment whatsoever that tells the church to hate anyone. Neither is there any commandment to the church to spread the gospel by the sword.

        Jesus surely mentions owning a sword in Luke 22:35-38, but it was for defensive use only. As He was sending preachers out as sheep among wolves, and knowing their lives were going to be in danger, He told them that there is nothing wrong in defending themselves.

        And, we are told a parable in Luke 14:23 where we are told to "compel them to come in," it is meant to beg and plead, not to force...

        These groups claiming Christianity and yet using violence??? "You gah some s'plainin' to do, Lucy!" (OK, dated "I Love Lucy" reference...)

        April 15, 2014 at 8:57 am |
        • totot57

          Theo, here's a much more interesting "statement" in this context:
          "I'd love to see North America's 100 million Aryan Christians convert to the religion invented by their own race ...", that's what Cross wrote. And it illustrates the crux (no pun intended : ) with all religions.
          We invent religion and worship of some kind of deity that fits our cultural history and then worship it. Oh by the way, then we do all kinds of things "in the name of god, allah, jehova, krishna, odin, holy spaghetti, yazad, zeus, aphrodite and a 1,000 others".
          And everybody better respect MY god, because my god is better than yours.

          April 15, 2014 at 9:48 am |
        • Theo Phileo

          "We invent religion and worship of some kind of deity that fits our cultural history and then worship it."
          -------------–
          Man is incurably religious, and if he turns his back on the one true God, or refuses to worship Him in the prescribed manner as laid out in the word of God, he will not go into a vac.uum, he will instead try to fill the gaps in his relationship with God by creating other gods out of snakes, or birds, or beasts, men, or money. If he does not worship the Creator, he will instead worship the creature. (Romans 1:18-28) Man always forms his gods into the kind of god that he wants him to be, then man eventually winds up becoming more and more like his god. In this way, he accommodates his sinfulness, and justifies his desires.

          Psalm 115:4-8 – Their idols are silver and gold, the work of man’s hands. They have mouths, but they cannot speak; they have eyes, but they cannot see; they have ears, but they cannot hear; they have noses, but they cannot smell; they have hands, but they cannot feel; they have feet, but they cannot walk; they cannot make a sound with their throat. Those who make them will become like them, everyone who trusts in them.

          Deities made by men always reflect the deficiencies and sinfulness of men. For example:
          It was believed of the Canaanites and the people around Israel that Baal was the force behind the se.xual aspect of human nature. All se.x relations then, according to those who worshiped Baal, became sacred acts because they then became demonstrations of this great force of the god Baal. The temples of Baal were then occupied by priestesses who were known as sacred prost.itutes. They were considered to be holy women because Baal was believed to be active in the se.xual act itself – to worship Baal then became a se.xual act with a temple prost.itute; this act then placed the worshipper in united power with Baal, a very consummate act of worship. (Hosea 4:14, Deuteronomy 23:17, 2 Kings 23:7)

          April 15, 2014 at 10:12 am |
  2. zendraxus

    :)) you can bow out of this Dala....you are starting to oversimplify my posts intentionally I think.

    April 15, 2014 at 6:23 am |
    • zendraxus

      blown reply

      April 15, 2014 at 6:24 am |
    • Dalahäst

      "if I claimed the sky was green – you looked and it was still blue, and you pointed this out to me and I immediately killed you because of that...that would be pretty senseless..you just died because of my lie.....very hollow way to go..yet it is still happening today."

      I wouldn't kill you because of that. Sure, some Christians might do that kind of thing. And so might some atheists. And it is still happening today. Yes. And it is not my fault. It is not your fault.

      Anybody is capable of doing such a senseless thing.

      Some Christians are doing beautiful things. Some atheists are doing beautiful things. Some atheists and some Christians are doing beautiful things together – instead of trying to scapegoat the other as an enemy.

      It is still happening today!

      April 15, 2014 at 6:32 am |
    • Dalahäst

      "Most religious people in America fully embrace science. So the argument that religion has some issue with science applies to a small fraction of those who declare that they are religious. They just happen to be a very vocal fraction, so you got the impression that there are more of them than there actually is."

      Neil deGrasse Tyson

      So, why does a non-scientist anti-theist like you get so upset when a scientist (who definitely is not an anti-theist) makes a statement like that?

      April 15, 2014 at 7:19 am |
      • Dalahäst

        What is the, as you put it: "dishonest nature" of people like him.

        What did he say, as you put it: to "earn" the "derision" of the "anti-theists"?

        Or
        Do you just get upset when I say "Most religious people fully embrace science?"
        but
        When Mr Tyson says it – well.... what? Suddenly the guy you recommend I listen to isn't good enough anymore?

        April 15, 2014 at 7:26 am |
        • zendraxus

          You are truly shameless – and now you try to say I called him dishonest....

          it was you I was referring to because you made that statement – and did not credit the originator of that quote.

          that said- in the conversation below I said that I thought his statement ""Most religious people fully embrace science."
          was in error...never mind the Bible belt and the south – anyone that believes a creator spoke some words it all began isn't embracing science let alone fully.

          and now you try to say I called him dishonest....

          April 15, 2014 at 8:30 am |
        • samsstones

          zendraxus
          We all know that Dala... is a very gifted deceitful apologist that will twist anyone's words to try and make a point. Yet this troll who accuses others of spending so much time on a blog is probably the all time leader, it is hypocrisy and he readily admits to being a hypocrite We all know he is a follower of Jesus, I think it bolsters his low self esteem. Better to just ignore him.

          April 15, 2014 at 9:29 am |
        • Dalahäst

          @Zen
          It is ironic that you called me dishonest for saying 'most religious people fully embrace science.'

          And when Mr Tyson said it you said he is only human and you just disagree with him on this issue.

          So I was poking fun of you about that.

          I really don't think you are dishonest. But I do note the fact that most atheists do not preach what you preach. Most don't blame Christianity for most of society's woes like you do. Most don't scapegoat Christians like that. Only extremists do that. Like the shooter did against Jews. That parallel concerns me about you.

          @SamStones you are hypocritical at times, too. Is it that you just won't fully admit it? Or are incapable of admitting it?

          April 15, 2014 at 10:44 am |
        • zendraxus

          Dalahast,

          When you say that line you ARE claiming something that isn't true based on your position. People that believe as you do succeeding at changing the curriculum that our children are being taught in much of the South.

          when NDT says that line, he is giving creationists credit for being more forward thinking than they deserve....he is being kind.

          I respect Goper and NDT a lot....I cant touch their levels of academia ....no question there....but like many brilliant and knowledgeable people, they are not always right....I think both grant religion respect that it has neither earned or deserves.

          I want people to be free of this garbage – maybe there will always be war and scams and other human BS, but doing away with religion will make it a lot harder for the 'ethically challenged' to manipulate so many so easily into their schemes.

          April 15, 2014 at 1:03 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          You are not always right either.

          I trust Mr Tyson, not you, in regards to this topic.

          I think blaming 'religion' for all of societies woes is silly. That has been the tactic of some pop-atheists like Hitchens and Dawkins – and most atheists are rejecting that philosophy. I'm grateful for that.

          http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/8885481/after-the-new-atheism/

          "The atheist spring that began just over a decade ago is over, thank God. Richard Dawkins is now seen by many, even many non-believers, as a joke figure, shaking his fist at sky fairies. He’s the Mary Whitehouse of our day."

          April 15, 2014 at 1:10 pm |
        • zendraxus

          haha – whatever Sam is spot on about you.

          This is all you have..cherry picked soundbytes and out of context quotes ( and mangled quotes) are the stock and trade of your kind....have you actually watched the full video that NDT quote is from? You get a better perspective of his actual position if you see everything he had to say.

          April 15, 2014 at 1:20 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          I posted Mr Tyson's quote in its entirety via YouTube, after you suggested I listen to his speeches.

          I cherry picked this just for you:

          "Richard Dawkins aside, the view that all scientists – even if they be atheists or famous people – hate religion is not really true. Peter Higgs has very sanguinely criticised Dawkins for his anti-religious stance, and goes on to say that he doesn't think science and religion are incompatible. Brian Cox himself echoes the same sentiment. There are, moreover, a number of prominent openly religious scientists, such as Frances Collins, currently the head of the US National Insti.tutes of Health; Gerhard Etrl who won the Nobel Prize for Chemistry (2007) and William D Phillips who won the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1997. And this is just naming a few. Most scientists in the media don't make a stand one way or another, perhaps because they too think it is irrelevant. Maybe this is a crazy idea but I am guessing a fair few scientists don't like Star Trek either. "

          http://www.theguardian.com/science/occams-corner/2013/mar/04/myth-scientists-religion-hating-atheists

          That article thinks what you are so passionate about, is actually irrelevant.

          As do most atheists I encounter.

          April 15, 2014 at 1:26 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          "Peter Higgs criticises Richard Dawkins over anti-religious 'fundamentalism'"

          Higgs boson theorist says he agrees with those who find Dawkins' approach to dealing with believers 'embarrassing'

          http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/dec/26/peter-higgs-richard-dawkins-fundamentalism?guni=Article:in%20body%20link

          April 15, 2014 at 1:28 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          "What Dawkins does too often is to concentrate his attack on fundamentalists. But there are many believers who are just not fundamentalists," Higgs said in an interview with the Spanish newspaper El Mundo. "Fundamentalism is another problem. I mean, Dawkins in a way is almost a fundamentalist himself, of another kind."

          You act like a fundamentalist in some ways. You are like an atheist version of the religious fundamentalist to me. I don't trust either of you.

          April 15, 2014 at 1:29 pm |
        • zendraxus

          What does that have to do with me? the Guardian? – weren't they caught up in a wiretapping scandal? and they are hardly what one could call a bastion of truth. tabloid crap.

          April 15, 2014 at 1:34 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          You seem to be arguing the same religion hating rhetoric that Dawkins popularized in his philosophy book – The God Delusion.

          You are acting like a fundamentalist. Like Dawkins does. And like some religious people do.

          Luckily not all religious people act like fundamentalists. Nor do all atheists act like fundamentalists. But you do.

          April 15, 2014 at 1:37 pm |
        • zendraxus

          Oh I hate scams of every sort....Richard Dawkins is his own man...I am my own man....we each have arrived at our position quite independently of each other....I can disagree and agree with people without being a toady. These are just people to me-not gods....I am anybody's equal on this planet...so are you, ...anyone ....the Cult of Personality carries no weight with me.

          April 15, 2014 at 1:45 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          So, why can't I be my own man?

          Why do you lump me in a group of Christians who commit idiocy?

          When I try to lump you in a group of atheists who commit idiocy, you don't like it?

          I don't like it when you try. And you fail at it just like I failed to do it to you.

          So maybe you should stop. I only do it jokingly to those that do it to me.

          Hence the 'Love atheists' quote on my blog. It is an ideal I strive to live up to.

          http://kcdalahast.wordpress.com/

          I guess atheists do not have such ideals. Atheist just means you don't believe in God.

          Are you a secular humanist or anything like that?

          April 15, 2014 at 1:49 pm |
        • zendraxus

          "When I try to lump you in a group of atheists who commit idiocy, you don't like it?"

          haha – I don't care....What idiocy btw? ive seen some frustrated comments.. but intentional untruths, twisting facts, not so much from the atheist- sorry – ANTI-THEIST camp .

          you are campaigning to get your supersti tious beliefs respect..and trying to make any question against it an as sault on you personally...don't like it, come up with physical proof backing your claims.....do that and I ll instantly shut up.

          Clearly I am a secular humanist.

          April 15, 2014 at 2:09 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          Ok. You don't seem to be following all of their principles they embrace. I know some others that follow that religion. They are a good example of how to treat others.

          April 15, 2014 at 2:24 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          Anti-theist idiocy? The scapegoating and stereotyping of Christians you embrace.

          April 15, 2014 at 2:26 pm |
        • zendraxus

          you don't seem to understand what a " secular humanist' is.....from wiki

          "The philosophy or life stance of secular humanism (alternatively known by some adherents as Humanism, specifically with a capital H to distinguish it from other forms of humanism) embraces human reason, ethics, social justice and philosophical naturalism, while specifically rejecting religious dogma, supernaturalism, pseudoscience or superst ition as the basis of morality and decision making.[1][2][3]

          It posits that human beings are capable of being ethical and moral without religion or a god. It does not, however, as sume that humans are either inherently evil or innately good, nor does it present humans as being superior to nature. Rather, the humanist life stance emphasizes the unique responsibility facing humanity and the ethical consequences of human decisions. Fundamental to the concept of secular humanism is the strongly held viewpoint that ideology—be it religious or political—must be thoroughly examined by each individual and not simply accepted or rejected on faith"

          me as close as anything has come....

          and why must I be in a box at any rate?..... why do you need to be in a box for that matter? why sell yourself short?

          April 15, 2014 at 2:45 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          No, most Secular Humanists make an attempt to live at a high standard.

          The ideals they embrace are very similar to the ideals we embrace at my church.

          It takes more than just reading the Wikipedia page to be a Secular Humanist. Well, I guess anyone can call themselves one.

          Do you have any program of accountability to keep yourself honest as you attempt to live out these ideals?

          I don't want to put you in a box. I certainly am not in a box.

          April 15, 2014 at 3:04 pm |
  3. neverbeenhappieratheist

    The fact is that every religious person here believes that if their God wanted those people dead then they deserved to die and would have done it themselves if their God had commanded it of them. To many of them their hero is a man who was about to murder his own son on his Gods command and they pray every day for faith like that, for more faith to do horrible things to innocents if God asks them to.

    April 15, 2014 at 2:22 am |
  4. vickimieth

    Just like any other faith, "Odinism" (or more correctly, Asatru) has frequently been perverted to support one or more individuals' twisted personal biases.
    In short, there are wackos everywhere... I would expect less sensationalism from an organization of CNN's reputation, rather than painting an entire faith group with the brush of a few twisted individuals.

    April 15, 2014 at 12:40 am |
  5. Salero21

    God is Love but HE is also a consuming Fire. God Love and Mercy are Eternal, however the same cannot be said of HIS Patience. So the... beware atheists/evolutionists/idolaters and of course Pagans. HISTORY IS NOT on your side.

    April 15, 2014 at 12:18 am |
    • jcs6

      History is proving not to be on your side either. As in, not a single ounce of proof. Beside the badly written collection of fairy tales you idiots follow. It's like 5 year old children magically thinking that their teddy bear is real or that the invisible friend only they can imagine is real. The Earth is not the center of the universe.

      April 15, 2014 at 1:06 am |
    • totot57

      Listen now, Salero, kneel, bow your head and listen to Thy god, and it is me!

      I Am Love, and I am breathing FIRE. I only love people who LOVE MEEeee, thus you are condemned to eternal stupidity. May you roast in hel.lil (my form of eternal punishment) and pray that my heartburn goes away so that I may show MY Mercy to thee... So speaketh ME

      April 15, 2014 at 10:25 am |
  6. Salero21

    Gen. 9:5,6
    5 "Surely I will require your lifeblood; from every beast I will require it. And from [every] man, from every man's brother I will require the life of man.
    6 "Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man.
    Time to put him to sleep.

    God is Love but He is also a consuming Fire. God's Love is Eternal however the same cannot be said of HIS Patience.

    April 15, 2014 at 12:09 am |
    • hotairace

      Bullsh!t! Quoting from a crappy book of fiction with no actual evidence for it being anything but the delusional ramblings of desert dwellers only indicates how fu.cked your brain is.

      April 15, 2014 at 12:16 am |
      • Salero21

        You've been duly advised of God's Eternal Love and Mercy. However the same cannot be said of HIS Patience.

        April 15, 2014 at 12:20 am |
        • totot57

          Salero, MY Patience runneth thin with your indolent and repeated references to that "other god" . I came long before him, and he knows it.

          You must not prolong your frying time in hel..il unless you love suffering. In which case I will multiply your torment by 7 times 7 and a thousand moons.

          April 15, 2014 at 10:29 am |
  7. Dyslexic doG

    there once was a salero21
    who raved about atheist sc.um
    with his arguments blurred
    and his logic absurd
    verbal diarrhea from his chin it did run

    April 14, 2014 at 11:19 pm |
    • Dalahäst

      There once was a guy named Dyslexic doG
      Who did something similar, he raved about "Christian sc.um"

      doG is basically the atheist version of Salero21.

      April 14, 2014 at 11:39 pm |
      • hotairace

        But at least he's not a mentally ill, delusional believer.

        April 14, 2014 at 11:50 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          That's the type of hateful things Frazier Glenn Cross says about the Jews.

          April 14, 2014 at 11:55 pm |
        • hotairace

          Wrong! I hate the sin (religion, delusional beliefs) but love the sinner (delusional believers).

          April 15, 2014 at 12:01 am |
        • Salero21

          So... hot air are you mentally ill and delusional? That's because atheism like paganism is Absolute, Complete and Total NON-SENSE. And you're one Prime example. However God still Loves you too!!

          April 15, 2014 at 12:01 am |
        • Dalahäst

          Right, HotAirAce.

          Fred Phelps claimed he loved g.ays, and his protests and derogatory names were loving.

          I think both of you guys are (or were in his case) clueless about love.

          You've said some completely hateful, rude and ugly things to me and others.

          You might benefit by studying what these atheists in the article say: http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/8885481/after-the-new-atheism/

          April 15, 2014 at 12:06 am |
        • hotairace

          I do not believe in alleged but never proven supernatural beings for which not a shred of actual evidence had ever been produced. I might have a couple of personality quirks (which some find amusing) but being a mentally ill, delusional god believer is not one if them, azzhole.

          April 15, 2014 at 12:09 am |
        • hotairace

          Waaaaaaa, waaaa, waaaaa! Poor baby!! Time for those holding childish beliefs to shed their baby myths and join the 21st century. No gods evident or required!

          April 15, 2014 at 12:11 am |
        • Dalahäst

          I don't believe in that manner either.

          I'm also not mentally ill. Or delusional.

          Let me guess, you are NOT a psychiatrist and are NOT qualified to determine such things?

          I've spoken with a psychiatrist and have been given a clean mental health status. I know there are a few hostile anti-theists that disagree, but I, like most reasonable adults, don't listen to their silly claims.

          You really don't know what you are talking about.

          April 15, 2014 at 12:16 am |
        • Dalahäst

          You can be mentally ill and delusional and not be a God believer.

          If someone is actually mentally ill and delusional, insulting them and calling them derogatory names is not the way to deal with them.

          But you don't honestly think I'm mentally ill or delusional. You are just resorting to name calling.

          April 15, 2014 at 12:19 am |
        • hotairace

          Religion holds a special but undeserved place in society. It's currently standard practice to assume or allow that believers are not mentally ill for believing things for which there is and never has been any actual evidence. In any other domain, those clinging to such beliefs would have been certified. It's only a matter of time before believers are put in the same category as astrologists, their predecessor on evolution's tree of stupidity. Enjoy your delusions, but please confine your activities to your home of your cult's clubhouse, and please, keep your crap away from children.

          April 15, 2014 at 12:23 am |
        • Dalahäst

          Eh, that sounds like you are trying real hard to sound like Richard Dawkins.

          You still are not qualified to determine what is and isn't mental illness or delusion. You really are just hurling insults. People that usually resort to such things feel bad about themselves and are insecure. Attacking others is a way to cope and feel better about yourself.

          Though it doesn't really work. It is called a defense mechanism. You would probably benefit from some of the discipline that a religion can offer. Try Buddhism. You don't have to believe in God. But you can deal with that spiritual malady that is causing you so much pain.

          April 15, 2014 at 12:32 am |
        • Dalahäst

          "Rejecting religion is no sure path to virtue; it is more likely to lead to complacent self-regard, or ideological arrogance."

          – An atheist

          http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/8885481/after-the-new-atheism/

          April 15, 2014 at 12:35 am |
        • hotairace

          Looks who's playing amateur psychiatrist now! No pain here – maybe you're projecting, azzhole.

          April 15, 2014 at 12:40 am |
        • Dalahäst

          Just my opinion. I figured I'd put my 2 cents in, since you put your 2 cents in.

          I actually see a psychiatrist, so your claims don't have much credibility.

          And the fact that only a few hostile, religion-hating atheists are the only people to make such claims and in such a manner about believers like me, speaks volumes, too.

          April 15, 2014 at 12:45 am |
        • hotairace

          Next time you see your shrink, I suggest you ask him/her why they are babying you.

          April 15, 2014 at 12:48 am |
        • Dalahäst

          Nah. You just are trying another insult. It says more about you, than me.

          April 15, 2014 at 12:56 am |
        • hotairace

          I think you are afraid to ask the question.

          April 15, 2014 at 12:57 am |
        • observer

          Dalahäst

          "And the fact that only a few hostile, religion-hating atheists are the only people to make such claims"

          First of all, I completely disagree with someone claiming that someone is mentally ill for being religious.

          However, your claim that the "only people" to claim others have a mental illness of delusion, is nonsense. Read what some of the dimwits say about gays on here and you'll know better and most of them are spouting the Bible when they do.

          April 15, 2014 at 1:08 am |
        • Dalahäst

          I'm not surprised you imagine I would be afraid to ask that.

          I'm not afraid to ask that question. And I really believe you are just saying that as an insult.

          April 15, 2014 at 1:11 am |
        • hotairace

          Then you can +1 the number of things you believe without any evidence.

          April 15, 2014 at 1:13 am |
        • Dalahäst

          observer

          Hu?

          I'm saying nobody but a few message board posters ( like hotairace, Colin, dyslexic doG) insist that I'm mentally ill and delusional. I know a lot of atheists and agnostics. And none make such claims about me. Or stereotype all others in such a manner.

          So, yea, just like there are some atheists on here that spread complete hatred and bigotry – there are also some Christians who spread complete hatred and bigotry.

          Some of those Christians tell me they hate me because of my lesbian pastor/fellow church members who happen to be g.ay, in a manner similar to how HotAirAce demonstrates his hatred.

          April 15, 2014 at 1:19 am |
        • observer

          Dalahäst,

          Sounds like you go to a church that actually practices the Golden Rule. Good for them.

          April 15, 2014 at 1:23 am |
        • hotairace

          I D O N ' T H A T E A N Y O NE ! Dalazz hates anyone that questions it's silly beliefs.

          April 15, 2014 at 1:23 am |
        • Dalahäst

          Obsever

          "First of all, I completely disagree with someone claiming that someone is mentally ill for being religious."

          I'm glad you said that. I think we misunderstood each other on the other part.

          Yes, some Christians accuse others in the same way HotAirAce accuses me.

          It is inexcusable behavior. I oppose it. No matter who does it.

          April 15, 2014 at 1:23 am |
        • observer

          Dalahäst,

          The rule on here should be that everyone show the same amount of respect that they receive from others. Sadly, there are FAR TOO MANY on here who don't.

          April 15, 2014 at 1:28 am |
        • hotairace

          Dalazz is the perfect little believer that goes to the perfect little church. His whole game is to find exceptions to any argument in order to maintain the status quo. He yearns for the days of "nice people don't talk about religion." Too bad those days are coming to an end. And it won't be the old guys like me that cause the religious house of cards to crumble – it will be the young ones of today and their children that heap ridicule upon believers. Believers are but a generation or two from becoming the next astrologers!

          April 15, 2014 at 1:29 am |
        • neverbeenhappieratheist

          I agree, the religious are not mentally ill. A mentally ill person has no choice to believe insane things, the religious person does.

          April 15, 2014 at 1:29 am |
        • hotairace

          Dalazz, please show us where you have taken on salero of truthfollower.

          April 15, 2014 at 1:31 am |
        • observer

          hotairace

          The sad part is that salero and truthfollower could very well be trolls who are atheists. There's practically no credibility in either about their beliefs.

          April 15, 2014 at 1:43 am |
        • Dalahäst

          I ignore Salero. But I have told him I disagreed with his rants against atheists. It is stereotyping. It is stupid and not helpful. I'm called by Jesus to love my atheist neighbor. And I do.

          I'm not sure who TruthFollower is. Did he/she used to post under a different name? I think I have trouble following what they post.

          And that rant against me about the "perfect church" and "years for the days" is dead wrong.

          I oppose the status quo. And think that people who try to use religion to uphold the status quo fail and are unable to follow Jesus. They are basically trying to maintain the status quo for selfish reasons. And money is usually the motivating factor.

          I enjoy a good debate. I don't like the Salero 'atheists are idiots' or your 'Christians are mentally ill' rants. It usually tells me more about the ranter, not the person they are ranting against.

          April 15, 2014 at 1:46 am |
        • Dalahäst

          Observer

          That wouldn't surprise me. I've actually fallen prey to a non-atheist posing as an atheist – somebody pointed out the similar grammar/posting style of someone posing as a Christian. Basically they were just trolling to upset either side. And it worked.

          I'm glad that atheist figured that out, and let me in on it!

          April 15, 2014 at 1:50 am |
        • observer

          Dalahäst,

          I'd be surprised if either are Christians.

          Some people come on here (often using multiple names) for the sole purpose of getting their kicks by irritating people. They are that pathetically desperate for attention. Looks like we have gone full circle now and are back to talking about mental illness again.

          April 15, 2014 at 1:56 am |
        • Dalahäst

          Observer,

          Yea. They had an article in my local paper not too long ago about that:

          "New research finds that many Internet trolls are ‘everyday sadists’ who feed on suffering"

          http://www.kansascity.com/2014/03/30/4926371/new-research-finds-that-many-internet.html

          I think that headlines sums it up nicely.

          April 15, 2014 at 2:03 am |
        • observer

          Dalahäst,

          I'll finish by throwing a third candidate into the mix: His Panic. That's another likely candidate or there's a good chance we might only be talking about one really sick person.

          Good night.

          April 15, 2014 at 2:06 am |
        • zendraxus

          Dalahast,

          Hotair,Colin, and doG, are actually giving you the benefit of the doubt in calling it a delusion or a mental illness. I am not so charitable and think you people know exactly what you are involved in.

          I despise these insti.tutionalized fantasies and seem to be one of the very few that realizes that the terror unleashed by your religion and others today and past centuries can resurface quickly. when the religious gain power they immediately start placing limits on those they view as enemies and the unworthy...and if possible killing such outright. This really sucks for people like me because there is nowhere left to go to get away from you.

          April 15, 2014 at 2:34 am |
        • Dalahäst

          History shows that all people are capable of doing great things. But also are capable of doing horrible things.

          Religious people have demonstrated they fit that bill.

          And non-religious people have demonstrated they fit that bill, too.

          I oppose the horrible things people do. Whether they are religious or non-religious.

          What does my church do that offends you? Supporting our troops overseas? Helping their grieving families when they are killed? Providing a place for the community (even secular and people of other faith) to gather? Fighting for equal rights for g.ays? Fighting against pay-day lenders that prey on the poor in our community? Offering food and financial assistance to those in need? Organizing clean up and beautfication of run down areas in our city?

          Our neighbors seem to indicate we are a blessing in the community.

          What is it that we should stop doing?

          April 15, 2014 at 2:45 am |
        • zendraxus

          Catholic yes?

          For starters the charity you church gives out IS commendable ...and the fact that it needed is a social commentary on our society- a society built by a Christian majority. We shouldn't need the services provided by an inst.itution that played such a huge part in making this mess in the first place.

          April 15, 2014 at 3:53 am |
        • Dalahäst

          No, I'm not Catholic.

          So democracy, a government of the people – for the people, a separation between church and state: all Christian values? We wouldn't have these things without the Christian majority embracing them?

          Nations with no Christian influence still suffer from the same problems that plague our country. They are more human in nature, than something exclusive to Christianity.

          April 15, 2014 at 4:18 am |
        • zendraxus

          The Democracy the founding fathers had in mind, the government described in our consti.tution almost immediately began to be changed by the religions and moneyed interests.

          Once the Cold War started, the Christian push went into overdrive – even today admitted atheists in the political system of this country are few and far between. Funny you have to lie and be dishonest about you core beliefs to even have a shot at a seat at the highest levels of government. The separation of church and state has been under constant assault.

          On a global scale one can make the argument that Christianity has been a disaster for just about any culture that could not match them in malevolence and technology...the Americas were utterly devastated by Christian Doctrine.

          Mankind doing their worst...using an otherworldly authority to scare whole populations into obedience.

          We don't need any of these dogmas...we really need Christianity and Islam to go away ...we have an enormous task ahead of us and it will be hard enough without supersti.tion adding unnecessary complications to the situation.

          April 15, 2014 at 5:10 am |
        • Dalahäst

          So our mostly Christian nation, which embraced democracy, secular government, etc. – began to turn against these American principles around the Cold War era?

          Wasn't this about the same time that prayer was taken out of public school and other venues?

          Are you sure it isn't capitalism or human greed that is causing these problems?

          Why were some of the most hideous murders and crimes against humanities committed in the 20th century were done by non-Christian superpowers?

          People are people. No matter what segment of society you look at, you'll find good people and you'll find bad people. You'll even find, as has been said, that the line between good and evil cuts through every human heart.

          Usually the people to beware of are the ones that scapegoat others, stereotype a group they don't like and insist that they are better than others. Uh, kind of like what you do...

          April 15, 2014 at 5:30 am |
        • Dalahäst

          Also, most people are not atheists.

          Only 5% of Americans identify as atheist. You are part of a minority. In a democracy, if a majority votes against your vote – you lose.

          I'm often in the minority myself. I live in the Bible Belt and fight for the rights of my friends and coworkers who happen to be g.ay to enjoy the same rights I have. I also don't appreciate the big banks preying on uneducated and desperate people in the inner-city. It is hard to fight that group: they are rich and powerful. And nothing on their building, cars, website or literature mentions God, Jesus or serving the poor.

          I generally support the rights of atheists and want their voice heard. Unless they preach bigoted crap like you. Then I will stand up against them.

          Down with Christian bigots.

          Down with atheist bigots.

          Down with bigots.

          April 15, 2014 at 5:39 am |
        • zendraxus

          Well we got the pledge of allegiance in the 50s, in god we trust on our currency in the 50s....and the prayer you speak of being taken out of schools was actually the result of a fight between denominations if memory serves.

          Yes human greed is exactly why we-you and I are still talking about religion in the 21st century....capitalism is also an outgrowth of that element as well. Greed will end humanity most likely.

          You really want to do the whole Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin thing? we can if you want -but I think you already know my response to this.

          people are people –absolutely...and we need to remove the silly elements that become not so silly when people start losing their lives or end up being exploited by others for BS objectives -religion is a major vehicle in both cases.

          im scapegoating religion..Christianity right now....I respect you- not the fantasy you are defending.

          if I claimed the sky was green – you looked and it was still blue, and you pointed this out to me and I immediately killed you because of that...that would be pretty senseless..you just died because of my lie.....very hollow way to go..yet it is still happening today.

          April 15, 2014 at 6:01 am |
        • Dalahäst

          Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin thing?

          Those are examples of non-Christian organizations doing horrible things. Some included anti-theist and anti-religious sentiment.

          I don't want to pledge allegiance to a flag. Nor have God on our money. It is the government's money.

          I would never point to the blue sky and say it was green. And then kill you. There is nothing in my belief in God that would suggest I'm capable of doing that.

          That is silly.

          You can point to all of America's flaws and say "that is ALL Christianity". And if I disagree with you you can hate me.

          The problem with scapegoating and stereotyping is when it causes you to act irrational and illogical. You are trying to force me into a group that I don't belong to. It basically exists just in your head.

          April 15, 2014 at 6:12 am |
        • zendraxus

          ok my bad- what do you believe in?

          April 15, 2014 at 6:17 am |
        • Dalahäst

          "Do you really believe the masses will be Christian again? Nonsense! Never again. That tale is finished. No one will listen to it again. But we can hasten matters. The parsons will dig their own graves. They will betray their God to us. They will betray anything for the sake of their miserable jobs and incomes."

          Hitler

          He kind of sounds like you.

          Thank God he was wrong.

          April 15, 2014 at 6:20 am |
        • Dalahäst

          I believe in Jesus Christ.

          April 15, 2014 at 6:22 am |
        • zendraxus

          LMAO

          April 15, 2014 at 6:27 am |
        • Dalahäst

          Let me guess...

          by your logic, if I believe in Jesus Christ that automatically makes me a person who forces you to spend money with "In God We Trust" written on it (you poor baby), prohibit atheists from running for office, destroy America and cause wars all over the world.

          I think the shooter was saying those kinds of things about the Jews, maybe?

          April 15, 2014 at 6:37 am |
        • zendraxus

          so...I sound like Hitler and am in the same class as the shooter.....anything else you want to add to that?:)

          April 15, 2014 at 6:54 am |
        • Dalahäst

          Well, Hitler did speak about destroying Christianity and claiming it was a disease and it needed to die.

          And the shooter scapegoated Jews, just like you scapegoat Christians.

          I also wanted to add that most atheists do not hold the views you hold. Yours are very extreme and rigid. You seem to have a different view of humanity than most reasonable human beings.

          April 15, 2014 at 7:31 am |
      • zendraxus

        Regardless of whatever ti.tle they call it, it's still the same old song and dance.......Guys like this are no different than the religious police found in many countries today – these 'people' will never stop. If this clown got his wish and all whites signed up for his bs and killed everyone else, hed begin weeding out those that weren't fit or fanatical enough- hell on earth doesn't begin to cover it.

        Theres an article 4 slots down where this exact kind of hatred played out on the grand scale this lunatic dreams of.

        April 15, 2014 at 1:49 am |
        • zendraxus

          I suck...this was supposed to be a general statement about the above article...apparently nailed a reply button somehow.

          April 15, 2014 at 1:51 am |
        • otoh2

          zen,

          Reminds me of this one:

          "I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said "Stop! don't do it!" "Why shouldn't I?" he said. I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!" He said, "Like what?" I said, "Well...are you religious or atheist?" He said, "Religious." I said, "Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?" He said, "Christian." I said, "Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?" He said, "Baptist!" I said,"Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist church of God or Baptist church of the Lord?" He said, "Baptist church of God!" I said, "Me too! Are you original Baptist church of God, or are you Reformed Baptist church of God?" He said,"Reformed Baptist church of God!" I said, "Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist church of God, Reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist church of God, Reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed Baptist church of God, Reformation of 1915!" I said, "Die, heretic sc.um", and pushed him off."

          - Emo Phillips

          April 15, 2014 at 2:14 am |
        • zendraxus

          I like that:) ty!

          April 15, 2014 at 2:39 am |
      • chasman70

        That doesn't rhyme nearly as well as Dyslexic doG's verses

        April 15, 2014 at 8:01 am |
    • Salero21

      "There was"

      Can anyone not understand yet why I have no other choice but to remind them dear frenemies atheists that atheism/evolutionism/idolatry and now of course Odinism together with Paganism are ALL Absolute, Complete and Total Stupidity. I mean; what else can I say, given the Evidence presented before me in the Belief Blog by atheists themselves?

      April 15, 2014 at 12:14 am |
  8. Dalahäst

    Atheism just means you don't believe in God. You can still be in a religion.

    April 14, 2014 at 10:42 pm |
    • The Answer is 42

      re·li·gion
      riˈlijən/
      noun
      1.
      the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods.

      Would you say the KKK falls under this definition?

      April 14, 2014 at 10:49 pm |
      • Dalahäst

        2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects:

        Yes. To some, the KKK is just like a religion.

        April 14, 2014 at 11:18 pm |
        • Dyslexic doG

          the KKK is a Christian based cult.

          one of the 41,000 different sects your fairy tales have spawned.

          April 14, 2014 at 11:20 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          You try to spread the same kind of hatred against Christians as the KKK spreads against blacks.

          Derogatory terms? Yes, both you and the KKK.

          Extremist views? Yes, both you and the KKK.

          Distorting facts to meet your personal agenda? Yes, both you and the KKK.

          You talk about God and religion more than a Christian cult member, that's for sure.

          April 14, 2014 at 11:30 pm |
        • hotairace

          Beliefs *and* practices. There are no atheist practices.

          April 14, 2014 at 11:54 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          Some atheists practice a religion, though.

          But sure, atheism just means you don't believe in God.

          April 14, 2014 at 11:57 pm |
        • neverbeenhappieratheist

          There are atheists who practice humanism, and even some satanism, and there are those that practice yoga as well as practice safe s3x. Then again, there are lots of people who do those things, it doesn't require being an atheist. I think what you are saying is that some people are human and don't agree with your point of view and you don't like it because you think you are right about everything. And when those persons tell you to your face that they disagree you whine and moan about being abused, picked on and persecuted. When you are asked to keep your religion at home and at Church instead of injecting it into schools, courthouses and politics you scream discrimination. What else are the rest of us supposed to think about the babied white privileged protestants in America? I don't hate them or anyone else but I am certainly tired of hearing all the bltching and complaining as they lose their grip on American society. Sadly it's only going to get louder as their old decaying power structure fails and their religious litmus tests for political office fall to the wayside.

          April 15, 2014 at 1:48 am |
        • Dalahäst

          + I think what you are saying is that some people are human and don't agree with your point of view and you don't like it because you think you are right about everything.

          No. I practice tolerance and respect of other's beliefs. Unless they are bigots and hateful.

          + And when those persons tell you to your face that they disagree you whine and moan about being abused, picked on and persecuted.

          No I don't. When someone posts silly comments on religious blogs, I say something.

          + When you are asked to keep your religion at home and at Church instead of injecting it into schools, courthouses and politics you scream discrimination.

          I've never done that. What the hell are you talking about? HU?

          + What else are the rest of us supposed to think about the babied white privileged protestants in America? I don't hate them or anyone else but I am certainly tired of hearing all the bltching and complaining as they lose their grip on American society. Sadly it's only going to get louder as their old decaying power structure fails and their religious litmus tests for political office fall to the wayside.

          Hu??? No. What?

          I

          April 15, 2014 at 1:59 am |
        • neverbeenhappieratheist

          when I said "you" I meant it in the greater "you" sense of the general mass of believers who think they know whats what because some pastor told them they are special and now they vote whichever way the prevailing denomination blows. And you cannot deny the loosening of the religious grip on this country and it's only going to loosen further until all the religious are just like everyone else. Organized religions days are numbered and its freed members will be better for it as they throw off the yoke of old lies and the burden of useless faith.

          I look forward to the day when all humanity comes together as one, abandoning old hatreds, to design a new future for this planet and we will stretch out our hands and begin Terra-forming Mars and spreading out into the universe. There is no hope in old scrolls and false creation myths.

          April 15, 2014 at 2:16 am |
        • Dalahäst

          Oh, you were just stereotyping me.

          No wonder it didn't make any sense nor reflect reality.

          April 15, 2014 at 2:18 am |
        • neverbeenhappieratheist

          Yes I was. But It's okay because even if you don't fit the model it still rings true about the state of religion in America. Hopefully you will get to watch their demise from the outside. And when I say demise, I don't mean any humans, just the sick ideology of the current organized religious system.

          April 15, 2014 at 2:27 am |
        • Dalahäst

          Stereotyping is lazy and idiotic.

          I follow Jesus, not organized religion. I don't care if the far religious right and its mockery of what Jesus says is losing its power. Lots of followers of Jesus don't care either.

          I hope your small-minded stereotyping dies with organized religion.

          April 15, 2014 at 2:33 am |
    • Dyslexic doG

      asinine.

      April 14, 2014 at 11:12 pm |
      • Dalahäst

        You should read this:

        http://www.amazon.com/Religion-Atheists-Non-believers-Guide-Vintage/dp/0307476820

        I've conversed with some atheists on here that belong to a religion.

        April 14, 2014 at 11:24 pm |
    • Salero21

      Yup, I agree!! And usually the religion is Idolatrous and Pagan.

      April 15, 2014 at 12:02 am |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      "Atheism just means you don't believe in God. You can still be in a religion."

      This is of course a true statement.

      Academically you may be a Buddhist and not believe in God(s), though most of us wouldn't call Buddhists 'atheists'.
      You may be a regular church attendee going through the motions.
      You may be a secular humanist whose actions (including church attendance) are indistinct from that of believers.
      You may be someone who accepts (essentially as an article of faith) the idea that, categorically, there is no God.

      What this statement does explicitly say, is that "atheism is not a religion". I concur.

      April 15, 2014 at 2:48 am |
      • Dalahäst

        Atheism is not a religion.

        But unfortunately a lot of atheists treat it like one.

        April 15, 2014 at 2:52 am |
      • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

        As much as I don't want to, I am compelled to agree – certainly here.

        We have to apply the 'duck' test. If it walks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck – then it probably is a duck.

        In situations like these Einstein's mind speaks volumes:
        "“The bigotry of the nonbeliever is for me nearly as funny as the bigotry of the believer.”

        There's a lot of the 'dark side' in anti-theism.

        April 15, 2014 at 3:00 am |
        • zendraxus

          The dark side of anti-theism? And what would that be exactly? calling a spade a spade? and can the 'dark side' of people like me – even remotely be compared to the 'dark side' of pretending that gods and their agents have a special untouchable authority.....we have seen what giving these people that kind of legitimacy has done...thousands of years of this garbage.

          people like me are saying enough is enough.

          for Dalahast:
          If you need a religion to be a good person then id say you ve got character flaws that CANT be fixed by religion.

          April 15, 2014 at 3:35 am |
        • Dalahäst

          I don't need a religion to be a good person. I've never suggested that anyone does need a religion to be a good person.

          And we all have flaws. Nobody is perfect.

          There is a dark side to everyone. Even anti-theists who think they are superior to others. Maybe a superiority complex is your dark side.

          You may even have blind spots – you can't recognize it in yourself, but others can. If you had a program of accountability in your life – like following the principles of human secularism – you might expose that dark side and overcome it.

          People who try to blame all religion for the world's evils, are probably trying to hide something about themselves. It is called scapegoating. The murderer in the article for this message board: he was scapegoating Jews for all his problems.

          And he certainly had some problems. I bet he is still blaming the Jews. He is incapable of being honest with himself.

          April 15, 2014 at 4:27 am |
        • zendraxus

          Oh no doubt I have my flaws, but im not the one trying to sell a supernatural being to people.

          you can back peddle your God all the way back to the big bang or before and at the end of the day still have to face the fact that the whole concept of Deism is a product of the human mind- ancient minds at that. There is a process at work that is responsible for Existence...it will make complete sense when we are advanced enough in our sciences to explain it- and if we don't make it, the universe and the multiverse it MAY be part of will flow on- completely unaffected.

          April 15, 2014 at 5:34 am |
        • Dalahäst

          I'm not trying to sell a supernatural being to people. I realize some do, but logically that doesn't mean all who believe in God are guilty of that.

          Back peddle to the Big Bang? Did the Catholic priest who fathered the Big Bang Theory back peddle when he made his contributions to scientific advancement?

          A lot of people who believe in God contribute more to science and technology than you do. They work with scientists – atheists, agnostics, deists, and people of other faiths.

          I would say those believers are part of the "we" of science. You personally are on the outside looking in.

          Why do you capitalize the words "Existence" and "Deism"? Just curious.

          April 15, 2014 at 5:56 am |
        • zendraxus

          would say those believers are part of the "we" of science. You personally are on the outside looking in.

          and yet religions and religious interests are primarily the ones opposing evolution, the effects of climate change, health education etc.

          yes- our sciences are based on the shoulders of those identified as religious...some by necessity – some actually were true believers. Religious people doing science was never the problem....that many of them reached a point to where they said "god did it" is the problem Watch Neil Degrasse Tyson's the perimeter of ignorance if you haven't.

          Im on the outside looking in....so you are a scientist then?....ok great.. what field?

          April 15, 2014 at 6:44 am |
        • Dalahäst

          I'm not a scientist. You were the one saying "we" and "us" and excluding believers in regards to science knowledge.

          Most religious people fully embrace science.

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbvDYyoAv9k

          April 15, 2014 at 6:56 am |
        • zendraxus

          the we and us I use is referencing Humanity.......

          April 15, 2014 at 6:59 am |
        • Dalahäst

          So you include Christians and believers in God within your understanding of humanity, right?

          Why do you capitalize "humanity"?

          April 15, 2014 at 7:03 am |
        • zendraxus

          "Most religious people fully embrace science."

          really? .......ok we are done here.

          the reason Anti- Theists get short with the religious is the dishonest nature of you people -- you earn their derision.

          April 15, 2014 at 7:05 am |
        • Dalahäst

          "Most religious people in America, fully embrace science." – Neil Degrasse Tyson

          I provided the YouTube clip where he said that. Search " Neil Degrasse Tyson Faith" on YouTube.

          http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/n/neildegras615072.html

          Try to be a little bit more open minded.

          April 15, 2014 at 7:08 am |
        • Dalahäst

          "You people"? Because I'm black?

          Did you just find out Neil is black, too? And that is why his quote upset you?

          Most atheists do not act like you. Just a few hostile anti-theists that aren't that bright.

          April 15, 2014 at 7:16 am |
        • zendraxus

          Neil Degrasse Tyson is one of my heros.

          and he is either wrong in his statement or that minority he speaks of (yes – had to watch what you posted after you attributed the quote to him- what you should have done from the start) is spectacularly powerful in their influence.

          he is human and I am allowed to disagree with my heros.

          As for you: you have compared me to Hitler, the shooter in article above, leveled personal attacks, misrepresented contentents in several of my posts.....and attempted to paint me a racist...on a text based forum.....the race card?!!

          LMAO

          April 15, 2014 at 7:31 am |
        • Dalahäst

          I've been joking with you.

          Neil deGrasse Tyson is one of my heroes. And his biggest hero, Carl Sagan, was very respectful to people of differing faiths. Even Christians. I can't believe any of them would want to be a part of your "Humanity" where everyone that believes differently than you is scapegoated as a destroyer of America.

          I recently watched a video where Mr Tyson teared up talking about staring into the night sky "hearing" the universe call him to study it. It sounded like a religious experience.

          April 15, 2014 at 7:36 am |
        • Dalahäst

          "An atheist has to know a lot more than I know. An atheist is someone who knows there is no god. By some definitions atheism is very stupid." Carl Sagan

          April 15, 2014 at 7:40 am |
      • Dalahäst

        Another good one that illustrates that phenomenon:

        "I was barked at by numerous dogs who are earning their food guarding ignorance and supersti.tion for the benefit of those who profit from it. Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is of the same kind as the intolerance of the religious fanatics and comes from the same source. They are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against the traditional "opium of the people"—cannot bear the music of the spheres. The Wonder of nature does not become smaller because one cannot measure it by the standards of human moral and human aims."

        -Albert Einstein

        April 15, 2014 at 3:05 am |
      • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

        I think a sense of the wonder of "the music of the spheres" can be appreciated without assigning it a supernatural cause, but that doesn't mean that those who interpret it so should be derided as ignorant fools.

        April 15, 2014 at 3:11 am |
        • Dalahäst

          I think "fanatical" is the key element to look out for. Especially the 'all or nothing', 'black or white', rigid mindset that plagues some.

          April 15, 2014 at 5:12 am |
        • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

          In this context I'd use the word "zealous" and the relevant noun – zealot.

          April 15, 2014 at 11:09 am |
  9. kevinite

    I know it's odd but the first thought that came to mind were the Thor movies in which Heimdall (Heimdallr) the guardian of the rainbow bridge to Asgard being played by Idris Elba. How did Frazier Glenn Cross reacted to that?

    April 14, 2014 at 10:21 pm |
  10. MidwestKen

    Hmm...
    I have no idea what this guy was, other than a raving loon, but I'd be interested to know what , " essentially self-identified as an atheist" actually means.

    April 14, 2014 at 7:25 pm |
    • The Answer is 42

      I would guess when someone asked him about religion, he said he was atheist....but the word ' essentially' calls that into question...
      He needed to self identify as a danger to society.

      April 14, 2014 at 8:42 pm |
  11. Dalahäst

    "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy.'

    But I tell you,
    love your enemies,
    bless those who curse you,
    do good to those who hate you,
    and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven.

    For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.

    For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Don't even the tax collectors do the same? If you only greet your friends, what more do you do than others? Don't even the tax collectors do the same? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

    Matthew 5:43-48

    April 14, 2014 at 7:12 pm |
  12. Salero21

    Atheism, Idolatry and now Paganism ALL are like the proverbial "monkeys in the barrel". Well that's just more bad news for ALL atheists and evolutionists. This is one specimen that is "Evolving" backwards. JAJAJA... oops... Pardon me Please... I meant to say HAHAHA. Time to put him to sleep.

    April 14, 2014 at 6:59 pm |
    • Akira

      You are a silly human.

      April 14, 2014 at 7:17 pm |
      • The Answer is 42

        You called it, Akira. He added it to his salutation.

        April 14, 2014 at 8:44 pm |
      • Salero21

        Are you Human?

        April 15, 2014 at 12:04 am |
    • Dyslexic doG

      asinine.

      April 14, 2014 at 11:14 pm |
  13. I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

    "and "Ride of the Valkyries," an opera piece used to accompany German wartime newsreels.

    That's a pretty dismissive comment regarding the role of the whole works of Richard Wagner in the Third Reich.

    See the section on "Nazi appropriation" at the bottom of this:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Wagner

    Hilter was a big fan of Wagner's works: "Adolf Hitler was an admirer of Wagner's music and saw in his operas an embodiment of his own vision of the German nation;"

    April 14, 2014 at 6:46 pm |
  14. Dalahäst

    You can be a hate-monger who happens to be a Christian.

    Just like you can be a hate-monger who happens to be non-religious.

    You can also be a hate-monger toward everything Christian.

    This man killed 3 Christians. He said he hated Christians.

    April 14, 2014 at 6:41 pm |
    • I'm not a GOPer, nor do I play one on TV

      Apparently he didn't like Jews much either.

      April 14, 2014 at 6:48 pm |
      • Dalahäst

        He hated them.

        He was so full of hate he attacked a community center and an assisted living facility that serves Christians and others in my city.

        April 14, 2014 at 6:54 pm |
    • fortheloveofellipsis

      No, his rantings targeted Jews. It's just a sick irony that he missed his target...

      April 14, 2014 at 6:48 pm |
      • Dalahäst

        He probably hated me, and I'm not Jewish. He probably would kill me because I love and support atheists, Jews, g.ays and people of other races.

        He certainly hated African-American Christians. And Hispanic Christians.

        April 14, 2014 at 6:52 pm |
        • fortheloveofellipsis

          I think by now it's pretty axiomatic that those who hate one group usually spread the hate around to several others...

          April 14, 2014 at 6:55 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          I'm going to guess he doesn't care that he killed Christians, though. He probably considers them "Jewish lovers" – but put in a derogatory name in for "Jewish". .

          April 14, 2014 at 7:00 pm |
        • Dyslexic doG

          @Dalahast ... how can you make this about you?!?! Sheesh!

          April 14, 2014 at 11:16 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          I actually go to that community center. It could have been me.

          I'll make it about you: I listened to some of his rants against Jews. It is similar in nature to your rants against Christians.

          April 14, 2014 at 11:42 pm |
        • ssq41

          ...and now you're acting like a two year-old, Dalahast.

          And with that comment, you confirm you don't deserve to be taken seriously.

          April 14, 2014 at 11:51 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          Do you imagine you are in charge of something?

          Frazier Glenn Cross is just as irrationally anti-Jew as dyslexiC doG is irrationally anti-Christian.

          Both are making sweeping and broad generalizations against the groups of people they hate.

          April 15, 2014 at 12:00 am |
        • ssq41

          Did you miss the part where the guy killed three people...

          That you equate comments with actions speaks volumes of your immaturity and should terrify those who interact with you where you live.

          April 15, 2014 at 12:10 am |
        • Dalahäst

          The shooter was just making comments. Until he took action on his comments.

          Anyone that obsesses about and negatively stereotypes a group of people based on their religion is capable of doing harm to those people. That scares me.

          April 15, 2014 at 12:26 am |
  15. Vic

    I have one thing to say to Frazier Glenn Cross:

    ♰♰♰ Jesus Christ Is Lord ♰♰♰

    April 14, 2014 at 6:37 pm |
    • Akira

      I don't think he cares.

      April 14, 2014 at 7:25 pm |
    • hotairace

      ♰♰♰ Jesus Christ Is Lord ♰♰♰ Is Fucking Bullshit!

      April 14, 2014 at 11:57 pm |
  16. Salero21

    Well my dear frenemies atheists, I have nothing but bad, very bad news for you. The other night saw a clip on the NatGeo channel, where famed Neil deGrasse said the beautiful Word Creation. Maybe he flip-flop, maybe he didn't realize that he said it, maybe God made him say it!! Whatever it was the reason is more bad news for atheists. Bu ajajaja... oops... Pardon me I meat to say bu ahahaha!!!

    April 14, 2014 at 6:34 pm |
    • Salero21

      I meant to say "meant". OMG THE GRAMMAR GESTAPO OF THE INTERNET is going to get me.
      Where is a good Secret Agent of THE GRAMMAR GESTAPO when you need her/him?

      April 14, 2014 at 6:38 pm |
    • fortheloveofellipsis

      Yep, you're really showing off that humility that Jesus taught you, right? Riiiight...

      April 14, 2014 at 6:40 pm |
      • Salero21

        riiiiight is wrong very WRONG Especially from an Agent of THE GRAMMAR GESTAPO OF THE INTERNET, the Legal Branch of Atheism.

        April 14, 2014 at 6:52 pm |
        • fortheloveofellipsis

          Aww... U Mad Bro(tm)?...

          April 14, 2014 at 6:56 pm |
    • Dyslexic doG

      why did you name yourself "salt shaker"?

      April 14, 2014 at 11:17 pm |
  17. Bootyfunk

    this author may not like that Frazier Glenn Cross is a christian, but he is. he may not be the same kind of christian, but he's definitely a christian. the bible is full of xenophobic commands to kill. the bible says jews killed jesus. if anyone actually followed all the commands in the bible, they would be among the world's worst ever serial killer/mass murderers.

    April 14, 2014 at 6:31 pm |
    • fortheloveofellipsis

      Actually, Bf, I think he's triangulating, not unlike what the real Nazis did in Germany. He can keep his Odinist beliefs while drawing in RW Christians with rhetoric that tells them what they want to hear. Hitler was an Odinist (at least so it seems), but he had no problem having "Gott mit Uns" put on every belt buckle in his army...

      April 14, 2014 at 6:34 pm |
    • Dalahäst

      Most Christians I know oppose what this man preached.

      I know a lot of Christians that have beliefs more similar to atheists, agnostics and people of other faiths; they all oppose what this man preaches.

      Most atheists and agnostics oppose what you preach, too. Thank God.

      April 14, 2014 at 6:38 pm |
      • Bootyfunk

        agreed, most atheist and christians alike oppose this man's beliefs. of course, christians regularly cherry-pick the bible, quoting passages that back up their personal beliefs while ignoring passages that don't.

        April 14, 2014 at 6:42 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          Sure, some Christians do that. So do you, which you demonstrated in your OP.

          I believe that is what extremists do. It isn't inherent to Christians exclusively – but a human trait. Even non-Christians, atheists, anti-theists and agnostics are capable of doing such things.

          April 14, 2014 at 6:48 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          I'm going to guess he doesn't care that he killed Christians, though. He probably considers them "Jewish lovers" – but put in a derogatory name in for "Jewish".

          April 14, 2014 at 6:59 pm |
        • Dalahäst

          Whoops, wrong place for post 2.

          April 14, 2014 at 7:00 pm |
    • cyprian2

      Wow,"Bootyfunk",that is single most dumbest thing I've heard today! What the what are you talking about??

      April 14, 2014 at 8:11 pm |
  18. Salero21

    Whaaat!!! More and more Evidence on top of more Evidence that atheism/evolution/idolatry and now Paganism are ALL Absolute, Complete and Total Stupidity!!! This is an overwhelming amount of Evidence.

    April 14, 2014 at 6:29 pm |
    • Bootyfunk

      you should look up the word 'evidence.'

      April 14, 2014 at 6:33 pm |
    • Akira

      Oh, goody. Another word you can add to your gibberish posts.

      April 14, 2014 at 6:36 pm |
      • Salero21

        One of my favorites is Sharkira!

        April 14, 2014 at 6:49 pm |
        • fortheloveofellipsis

          Sharknado!...

          No, really, Sally, you're gold. Absolute gold...

          April 14, 2014 at 6:57 pm |
        • Akira

          Sharkira certainly qualifies as a nonsense word, tis true.

          April 14, 2014 at 7:42 pm |
    • fortheloveofellipsis

      "Whaaat!!! More and more Evidence on top of more Evidence that atheism/evolution/idolatry and now Paganism are ALL Absolute, Complete and Total Stupidity!!!"

      This coming from someone in need of remedial spelling, capitalization, and punctuation lessons. Or do you think throwing around capital letters and putting more than one exclamation point on sentences makes them more true? Hint: it doesn't. It only makes you look like a mo.ron...

      April 14, 2014 at 6:38 pm |
      • Salero21

        Are you one or you just Play One?

        April 14, 2014 at 6:42 pm |
        • fortheloveofellipsis

          Play One? Is that a new game console my son hasn't heard about yet? Inconceivable!...

          April 14, 2014 at 6:46 pm |
        • Salero21

          So then... were you born One?

          April 14, 2014 at 6:48 pm |
        • fortheloveofellipsis

          Trapper: "Count off!"
          Radar: "Are you One?"
          Hawkeye: "Yes, are you one too? That's all of us!"

          Salero–unintentional comedy gold. Thanks for giving me an excuse to do a little M*A*S*H reminiscence...

          April 14, 2014 at 6:54 pm |
  19. fortheloveofellipsis

    His need to drag Christianity into his Odinism speaks volumes–particularly his target audience...

    April 14, 2014 at 6:20 pm |
    • fortheloveofellipsis

      "particularly ABOUT his target audience"–is it too late to learn how to type?...

      April 14, 2014 at 6:21 pm |
      • Salero21

        Another Secret Agent in the Belief Blog from THE GRAMMAR GESTAPO OF THE INTERNET. They are ruthless and very, very Cruel. Even if you made the simplest mistake they'll pick and poke you with their very SHARP pencils and toothpicks all the while yelling at you DIE, DIE, DIE. They will pick and poke you till you die and be no more!!!

        April 14, 2014 at 6:47 pm |
        • fortheloveofellipsis

          Here, let me help you down from your Ronco Handy-Dandy Self-Martyrdom Cross(tm), Sally. It must be tedious standing there all day long with a pole up your–oh wait. That was the Scarecrow. Carry on...

          April 14, 2014 at 6:51 pm |
        • Akira

          He was talking about his own post, Sal. Sheesh.
          You think forthelove is going to stab himself?

          April 14, 2014 at 7:20 pm |
  20. Akira

    Hate is hate, no matter the outer wrappings.

    April 14, 2014 at 6:17 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.