 |
|
|
|
|
April 14th, 2014
06:06 PM ET
The accused Kansas killer's neo-pagan religionBy Daniel Burke, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor [twitter-follow screen_name='BurkeCNN'] (CNN) - Frazier Glenn Cross is a white supremacist, an avowed anti-Semite and an accused killer. But he is not, as many think, a Christian. Cross, who also goes by the name Glenn Miller, is accused of killing three people - all Christians - on Sunday at Jewish institutions in Overland Park, Kansas. Authorities are weighing whether to file hate-crime charges against Cross, who is suspected of targeting Jews. The 73-year-old has espoused anti-Semitism for decades. He also founded racist groups like a branch of the Ku Klux Klan and the White Patriot Party, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center. Both groups have deep ties to Christian white supremacists. But according to Cross' 1999 biography, he is an adherent of Odinism, a neo-pagan religion that experts say has emerged as one the most vicious strains in the white supremacist movement. "The faith’s obsession with genetic purity, racial supremacy and conquering supposedly lesser peoples is a recipe for violence," said Josh Glasstetter, campaign director for the Southern Poverty Law Center. Cross writes in his autobiography, "A White Man Speaks Out":
Odin, often depicted with a white beard and long robe, is chief among the Norse gods, whose pantheon includes Thor, the god of thunder, and Loki, the mischief-maker In 2010, a white nationalist group, the Council of Conservative Citizens, boycotted the movie "Thor" because it cast a black actor, Idris Elba, as a Norse god. Cross writes in his autobiography, which remains posted on his website, that he has prayed for Odin to spark a race war in the United States. On Sunday, Cross "appears to have been acting out a violent fantasy, with himself cast as the brave Odinist warrior of his imagination," Glasstetter said. What the killings at Kansas Jewish sites say about U.S. hate groups Though Odinism has been appropriated by white racists, most adherents are peaceful, earth-loving pagans (some followers prefer the name "heathen"), said Jonathan White, an expert on religious extremists and a professor at Grand Valley State University in Grand Rapids, Michigan. An ancient Viking religion, Odinism resurfaced in northern Germany in the 19th century, where Nazis later appropriated its themes and gods. Odinist mythology "was a bedrock belief for key Third Reich leaders, and it was an integral part of the initiation rites and cosmology of the elite Schutzstaffel (SS), which supervised Adolf Hitler's network of death camps," according to the Southern Poverty Law Center. Odinism also influenced the creation of the American Nazi Party, which was founded in 1959. Odinism has lately gained in popularity among white supremacists who believe that Jesus is too peaceful and too Jewish to worship, White said. "It's hard to get a violent god out of Jesus." The Southern Poverty Law Center warns of a Odinist network run out of a California prison, where Asatru, another neopagan religion with roots in Iceland, has also taken root. "Racist versions of Odinism and its Icelandic version, Asatru, have become increasingly popular theologies among imprisoned racists and others on the radical right in recent years," said the Southern Poverty Law Center in a 2009 report. Peaceful neo-pagans, meanwhile, have strongly condemned white supremacists who appropriate their religion. "I want to say that Frazier Glenn Cross is a monster, and it cannot be denied that he's not alone," said Josh Rood, an expert on Asatru at the University of Iceland. "The prison systems, and the white separatist movements have been bastardizing Asatru beliefs, symbols, and myths for a long time." However, Rood said, white supremacists form a minority - albeit a loud and violent one - of a peaceful and proudly multicultural religion. Several mainstream neo-pagan and self-described heathen groups have strongly denounced Sunday's killings and are raising money for the victims. Cross' own public proclamations of faith seem to have taken several twists. David Embree, a religious studies professor at Missouri State University, said Cross presented himself as a traditional monotheist when he ran for Congress in 2008. But when he spoke at Embree's classroom in 2012, his views had apparently changed, the professor said. "He essentially self-identified as an atheist," Embree said. "The more overtly Christian groups in Southern Missouri have pretty much shunned him." Cross's second in command at the White Patriot Party, Stephen Miller, is a member of the Christian Identity movement, which claims that whites are the "true people of God." "Though I shared that particular belief, I did not agree with others," Cross writes in his autobiography. "Christianity is the second biggest trick the Jews ever played on us," he later writes. "The biggest was legalized abortion!" White said he sometimes refers to the violent strain of Odinism as "Nordic Christianity" because many American adherents borrow from both in creating their racist ideology. In his autobiography, Cross blends Christianity and Odinism in describing his ideal funeral. He writes that he would like to be buried in his White Patriot Party uniform. The music would include "The Old Rugged Cross," the venerable Christian hymn, and "Ride of the Valkyries," an opera piece appropriated for Nazi propaganda. This is how Cross closes the book: "Praise Odin, pass the ammunition, Sieg Heil, and Heil Hitler!"
Next entry »Heathenism's battle with white supremacists
« Previous entryDoes the Bible predict the 'blood moon'?
|
  About this blog
The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
|
|
|
People are suffering all over the world and atheism does not but tell people God doesn't exist.
They are suffering.
Where is your atheism now?
asinine
Wrong. You are too stupid to understand what it means. Go back to your cage, Doggie!
apologies to all. I thought that post was being blocked. Rookie mistake.
Atheists are humans. mortals. people. We are not a movement. We are not a religion. We just don't believe in your fairy tales.
Given Atheists' mortal limitations, we help the poor and starving people of the world as we are able.
Your god, however, has the ability with the flick of his fingers or the thought of his mind or the voodoo potions and incantations ... however it is he makes things happen ... to cure all, to solve all, to stop all evil, to make everything good and happy and wonderful. If your god, like any atheist, would do what he is able, then the world would be dramatically different.
But your god is not as good as any atheist. He either does not care to fix his awful creation, or he does not want to, or he is not able.
Atheists are humans. mortals. people. We are not a movement. We are not a religion. We just don't believe in your fairy tales.
Given Atheists' mortal limitations, we help the poor and starving people of the world as we are able.
Your god, however, has the ability with the flick of his fingers or the thought of his mind or the voodoo potions and incantations ... however it is he makes things happen ... to cure all, to solve all, to stop all evil, to make everything good and happy and wonderful. If your god, like any atheist, would do what he is able, then the world would be dramatically different.
But your god is not as good as any atheist. He either does not care to fix his faulty creation, or he does not want to, or he is not able.
Atheists are humans. mere mortals. We are not a religion. We just don't believe in your fairy tales.
Given Atheists' mortal limitations, we help the poor and starving people of the world as we are able.
Your god, however, has the ability with the flick of his fingers or the thought of his mind or the voodoo potions and incantations ... however it is he makes things happen ... to cure all, to solve all, to stop all evil, to make everything good and happy and wonderful. If your god, like any atheist, would do what he is able, then the world would be dramatically different.
But your god is not as good as any atheist. He either does not care to fix his faulty creation, or he does not want to, or he is not able.
Atheists are just humans. We are mere mortals. We are not a religion. We just don't believe in your fairy tales.
Given Atheists' mortal limitations, we help the poor and starving people of the world as we are able.
Your god, however, has the ability with the fl.ick of his fingers or the thought of his mind or the voodoo potions and incantations ... however it is he makes things happen ... to cure all, to solve all, to stop all evil, to make everything good and happy and wonderful. If your god, like any atheist, would do what he is able, then the world would be dramatically different.
But your god is not as good as any atheist. He either does not care to fix his faulty creation, or he does not want to, or he is not able.
If I was powerful enough to create the universe and the way that everything in the universe works, I would not let all those poor people drown on that ferry. I am pleased to say that is the difference between me and your god!
As I look over the replies each time I pose this thought to you, I am amazed at the thought level of you christian slave minds.
"Free Will" you bleat! What a joke. If there is free will then why would you even bother to pray? Either your god is in control or he is not in control. If there is free will then he is not in control. If he intervenes even once then the whole concept of free will dissolves!
You ask me how I would save these people from Frazier Glenn Cross. Are you serious!?!? With a click of my fingers or a thought in my head ... however you say your god created everything and set everything up. Oh, wait a minute. The bible is particularly v.ague on how he did it, just that it was done. How convenient.
When I "made" everything I wouldn't have "made" evil. I wouldn't have "made" war. I wouldn't have "made" hunger. I wouldn't have "made" disease. I wouldn't have "made" sorrow. I would have made a good and happy and productive place.
And don't go on about original sin. What sort of asinine fool tricks Eve into eating an apple so that he can then undo his master work that he put so much time into and turn it into the barely holding together chaos that we see today that he has to constantly micromanage? Seriously? Is that the best you've got.
Good grief!
If I was powerful enough to create the universe and the way that everything in the universe works, I would not let all those poor people drown on that fe.rry. I am pleased to say that is the difference between me and your god!
As I look over the replies each time I pose this thought to you, I am amazed at the thought level of you christian slave minds.
"Free Will" you bleat! What a joke. If there is free will then why would you even bother to pray? Either your god is in control or he is not in control. If there is free will then he is not in control. If he intervenes even once then the whole concept of free will dissolves!
You ask me how I would save these people from Frazier Glenn Cross. Are you serious!?!? With a click of my fingers or a thought in my head ... however you say your god created everything and set everything up. Oh, wait a minute. The bible is particularly v.ague on how he did it, just that it was done. How convenient.
When I "made" everything I wouldn't have "made" evil. I wouldn't have "made" war. I wouldn't have "made" hunger. I wouldn't have "made" disease. I wouldn't have "made" sorrow. I would have made a good and happy and productive place.
And don't go on about original sin. What sort of asinine fool tricks Eve into eating an apple so that he can then undo his master work that he put so much time into and turn it into the barely holding together chaos that we see today that he has to constantly micromanage? Seriously? Is that the best you've got.
Good grief!
apologies to all. I thought that post was being blocked. Rookie mistake.
So how would telling lies to suffering people help?
thefinisher1
For many, believing in God is the cause of their suffering.
People were killed.
Where is your atheism now?
It helped no one.
I believe that is the first thing I have ever read from you that was accurate.
Neither did theism. Do you have a point ?( he asked knowing he did not)
My point? Atheism is lazy and evil for standing by and allowing someone to make their own decision to kill. You atheists follow a hateful and unloving faith!
Are you off your meds again? Tell us ole wise delusional one, where was your imaginary friend god or perhaps why didn't you foretell this and stop it?
You do comprehend that much like you, this guy is psychotic...he was allowed access to weapons without having a background check done-thank your ever so Christian NRA for that. I'm guessing by the way you write on here that if the situation was right (or wrong as it may be) if you heard the voice of whoever tell you to take a gun and blow up a bunch of Atheists, you'd do it. Check yourself in to an asylum for the safety of society.
People were killed.
Where is your God now?
He helped no one.
@Concert in an Egg
Why do you think god owes it to you to keep you from suffering?
I don't. Thanks for playing.
So why do you/Dyslexic dog keep whining about god allowing people to suffer?
My concern is with the Ebola virus. It is not right to have humans killing it. I would blame god(s) if it were reasonable to do so. Do you see now?
My appologies.
I thought I was going to debate with an adult.
Go to your amusement park with your mommy and have fun.
I knew it. You are totally jealous! But about the Ebola virus, I am dead serious friend, and I am no child. What is your problem with god's creations?
We don't believe there is a god, so obviously we don't think a fictional being owes us something. However, many believers do credit their god when good things happen, but fail to blame their god when bad things happen. Either your fictional god can't control everything or he's completely evil to allow people like this guy to go around killing.
I am going to ride the new rollercoaster at Six Flags Magic Mountain today: Full Throttle
Jealous?
Yeah, you are jealous. At least Alias is.
Oh, I'm jealous and I'll admit it! I've got a 6 Flags over Georgia in Atlanta about an hour south of me, and Dollywood about two hours northwest of me – I LOVE rollercoasters, but my wife doesn't, so we don't go... :o(
Nearly 300 still missing
Scores of students were on the boat
Military divers are searching the dark, cold waters of the Yellow Sea in a desperate effort to find hundreds of people missing after the ferry capsized.
Where is God?
In peoples imaginations, where gods always are.
I see. Their imaginations must be unimaginably horrifying.
@ Egg:
if there's no God, there's no reason to be upset. so why the concern?
consider two opposite quotes (& views of existence):
"In a universe of blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference."
-Richard Dawkins
“I believe like a child that suffering will be healed and made up for, that all the humiliating absurdity of human contradictions will vanish like a pitiful mirage, like the despi.cable fabrication of the impotent and infinitely small Euclidean mind of man, that in the world's finale, at the moment of eternal harmony, something so precious will come to pass that it will suffice for all hearts, for the comforting of all resentments, for the atonement of all the crimes of humanity, for all the blood that they've shed; that it will make it not only possible to forgive but to justify all that has happened.”
-Fyodor Dostoevsky
1. I am not concerned where it involves a god since I do not believe in gods.
2. I agree with RD.
@ Egg: if you agree with Dawkins, then why the concern about this event at all?
isn't it just a manifestation of "precisely the properties we should expect" that should be received with "blind, pitiless indifference"?
your concern here doesn't match your naturalistic claims.
Russ, I am a compassionate person and am heartbroken be this and all tragedies. Human suffering is an unpleasant consequence to life. Compassion and empathy help not only ourselves, but also the victims families. Of course I care. Are you calling me a monster?
Why do you assume atheists lack empathy, Russ? And why do you think the universe HAS empathy or emotions? Because that's what Dawkins was talking about: the universe.
@ Egg & Akira: precisely the opposite. I do not assume you are discompassionate, moral monsters... but your naturalism DOES. while you may mock theists for believing what we believe, recognize the two fundamental opposites you are attempting to hold together:
1) the universe is meaningless, discompassionate & ultimately indifferent
2) this event is significant & should elicit compassion
have the intellectual integrity to embrace what your naturalistic worldview tells you: compassion is merely a foil for *temporary* survival. but this is exactly what you should expect from existence – of which your life is a microcosm. why would you expect your daily life to be a functional opposite of that reality?
SUM: your objections here are not with me, but you are at odds with your own espoused, underlying naturalism. either the universe has meaning (in which case, the loss of life IS significant), or it does not (and this is what you should expect – so compassion is unnecessary).
@Russ
loss causes suffering, suffering is bad. Mkay?
@ Alias: who defines 'bad'?
for a theist, that matches the underlying philosophy.
but that's not the claim naturalists are making.
read the dawkins quote above again. where does 'bad' come into a view like that? it doesn't.
it's intellectually disingenuous to hold such a view AND claim "suffering is bad."
And why do you assume I'm an atheist, Russ? I think I have indicated to you before that I am not; do remember that for future reference.
If I ask you a question about math, do you assume I'm a mathmetician?
Really, your whole post, directed partially to me, is based on the wrong assumption, and is incredibly arrogant. It is probably best if you don't combine posts to multiple people if you don't want to appear that way.
@ Akira: fair enough. i shouldn't have *assumed* you were an atheist, but – setting aside the emotional card – the critique on the atheist (the position for which you were advocating) holds.
considering that was the thrust of the discussion anyway, why do you so vehemently object here unless you have a dog in this hunt? along those lines, i would note: doing math does make one a mathematician (a student of math) in the most basic sense.
@Russ
People on this blog have a real problem with context.
The universe may not care if someone lives or dies, but the family and friends of that person do.
@ Alias: you are actually demonstrating my point in your objection.
1) you admit your larger metaphysical convictions tell you all of life is meaningless
2) yet you claim there is meaning & significance in your individual life
they can't both be true in the ultimate sense. either your view of the universe is mistaken, or you are purposefully deluding yourself about your individual significance. you can't have it both ways.
if the universe is ultimately meaningless, so is your individual life.
and if you feel the need to fabricate meaning in a meaningless existence...
...that should make you wonder which is broken: you or nature?
Russ,
My post asked why you assumed atheists were devoid of empathy. that was the position you were taking; I wanted to know why.
Anything else had been projected.
And the thought that I cannot comment because you don't feel I have right to by not an atheist is...just...silly. I know atheists. I know what they go through. I have empathy for them. All right?
@ Akira:
1) i didn't say atheists are devoid of compassion. i pointed out their compassion does not match their metaphysical claims. that's the critique.
2) you said "anything else was projected" – does that include calling me "incredibly arrogant"?
as i said, your vehemence here was beyond merely posing a curious question.
3) i didn't say or imply that you *couldn't* comment. re-read my statement.
i implied that you DO have some form of a 'dog in this hunt'. you call it "empathy" for the atheist. i am sensing increasingly that either you hold a position that is not all that dissimilar to those whom i am criticizing or you are close to someone who does (because you are taking a merely logical critique rather personally).
Egg,
Evil has been around since man fell from grace in the Garden of Eden. It will be here until we realign ourselves with God and accept Christ's sacrifice on the cross.
I guarantee that there will be a new tragedy tomorrow, and the next day, and the next.
God is exactly where He has always been: reaching His hand out to us for us to grab onto and reconnect with Him.
If you grab onto that hand, your body may still die, but your soul will live forever in Him.
What is the alternative, Egg? If there is no God, then what does this tragedy mean to you? They are just gone forever? Oops. Move on and try not to crash your boat again?
God is real, and if these folks accepted His love through Christ, they are with Him right now. If God is not real, then the universe just keeps on ticking along. No big loss here, just a few less dust specks in the mass expanse of nothingness.
guide
Baseless belief. Something to tell yourself without a shred of evidence to jstify the belief.
Cool igaftr.
Thanks for the heads up. I will go back to studying all the science that tells me so much about this world.
Hey did they figure out why atoms stick together yet? Or why gravity works? Or why the universe has the physical laws it does? I guess I will just abandon all my baseless beliefs and jump on board with yours.
Will that make you happy?
If you want to find truth, then science is your best bet. There are still many things we do not knwo, and that is acceptable. There should never be a time that one jumps to any god conclusion since there is no evidence of any "gods".
Whether or not there are any "gods", all religions are completely man-made, and should be treated as such.
I agree. Anything and everything man-made should be abandoned.
Except for science. Everything man-made should be abandoned except for science.
And cars. Everything man-made should be abandoned except for science and cars.
And Pizza.
" If God is not real, then the universe just keeps on ticking along. No big loss here"
Correct. Nice effort.
From your point of view, nothing matters. I think Dawkins said "pitiless indifference."
If everything is pitiless indifference, then why are you so passionate about that indifference? Shouldn't you be indifferent to everything?
Why do you care what other people believe? Better yet, why do you try and change what they believe? If everything is indifference, it should not matter what I, or anyone believes.
Believe what you want. I can't help how your brain works. But I do know this. Stay away from the Ebola. Not friendly to outsiders. Also, if you get a chance, be sure to ride The Texas Giant at Six Flags in Dallas. Awesome coaster.
Egg,
Roller Coasters are purely worldly attractions and should have no place in this world! They should be called Heller Ghosters because that's where they will take you!
I am just kidding. Have fun at Six Flags. I would have to go to the one in Pasadena. I haven't been in a while. Last time I went there, my friend won tickets from a radio station and they basically shut down the park for just the ticket winners. It was a blast.
I know you shouldn't care what I believe, but I care what you believe. I want you to go to Heaven. I also want you to live in fellowship with God. Do it.
1. There is no Six Flags in Pasadena, I think you mean Valencia (L.A.) That is where I am going today and tomorrow.
2. There are no gods, but thanks for the sentiment.
Why do you care what other people believe? Better yet, why do you try and change what they believe? If everything is indifference, it should not matter what I, or anyone believes.
If you guys could keep your beliefs to yourself, and stop trying to pass laws based on your beliefs then I personally wouldn't care. This, however, is not the case as there are literally millions of Christians who think that everyone should live by the bible.
Joey,
This is the thing. You are correct. Millions of Christians want people to live by Biblical principals. So we try to pass laws to enforce them (I don't really agree with that all the time, but whatever).
But you guys are doing the same thing. In fact, I would say that everyone who ever votes, does so based on the principals they hold.
I don't understand how an atheist can stand passionately for any set of principals and then, at the same time, argue that all principals are subjective and therefore equally valid.
guidedans
Are you familiar with the Constitution?
I don't think that atheists want to force anything on anyone. For example many Christians want are against gay marriage, which is a fine, however, why the need to ban it for everyone else? Holding the opposite position has no effect on Christians, however, because even if gay marriage is legal in every state nobody is going to force anyone into a gay marriage. So in the end it is only those opposing gay marriage who are trying to force everyone else to live by their rules.
But you guys are doing the same thing. In fact, I would say that everyone who ever votes, does so based on the principals they hold.
This I can agree with, but it is one of my principals that just because I don't like something doesn't mean I should try and stop everyone else from doing it, unless I can demonstrate that said behavior is directly harming others.
How did you get away with writing "Const.itution"? I thought it contained a no-no word.
Anyway, I am familiar with it. You ever wonder why the government shuts down on Sundays? I wonder what is special about that day that we would get it off.
The fact that the government shuts down on Sundays (In most cases Saturday as well) would only show that Christians made the rules.
Wrong Joey!
God made the rules!
Hayooooooooo!
I have a question...out of all the easy and even painless ways god(s) can kill people, why Ebola? That seems quite unnecessary.
Perhaps a better question is, out of all the easy ways god(s) can kill Ebola, why Humans? After all, we are the invaders in the Ebola Virus' world.
So, you are saying it's a matter of overkill? If that is the case I'm wondering how do you think could God overkill when God has it so that everyone is going to die no matter what anyway?
Why would god(s) put the Ebola Virus in harms way by introducing it to humans? Explain that to me.
Egg Concert,
I don't know why? However, what I'm wondering is what difference does it make?
Are you prejudiced against the Ebola virus?
How do you figure that?
Well you just dismissed the Ebola Virus, a living thing, one of God's creations here on earth and indicated that it does not matter if they die. You have so little respect for the living miracles of the planet?
What I'm wondering is what make you think that killing the ebola virus is something personal, it's not like say the virus could actually be a danger or anything? So, then I take it you are a vegetarian? But then again plants are life forms. Do you have a bias against plants? What did they do to you?
I eat to live. The Ebola Virus is not part of our food chain. It is superior to us in many ways, yet you dismiss it as unimportant.
Egg,
One can say the same thing about plants being superior to humans, especially with that photosynthesis thing. One can also say that like eating, one kills the ebola virus to live. So, what's your point?
kevinite, plants are idiots. Come on get serious.
So egg,
How intelligent is the ebola virus considering viruses do not have brains to begin with?
It is hard to say just how intelligent the Ebola Virus is because they don't have a brain and are difficult to communicate with.
So egg,
How do you know the Ebola virus is more intelligent than plants? Maybe you can train your pet Ebola virus to do some amazing things.
I already pointed out how difficult it is to gauge a virus' intelligence because they have no brains. We don't understand exactly how they communicate.
kevin
Plants may not have a brain, but they do react to external stimuli, defend themselves, attack others, and even have been shown to nurture their young.
Slime mold, even though a collection of sinigle celled organisms, has problem solving intelligence in a mold colony.
Our brains make decisions in a similar way to how bees in a hive makes decisions.
Jellyfish have no brains, yet thrive and survive.
Each individual brain cell has no intelligence, but as a collective, is quite formidable.
Time to re-define what intelligence is.
Egg and ifgtar,
That still doesn't answer the question I gave to Egg. How do you know that the Ebola virus is more intelligent than plants? Egg considered himself or herself justified in harming plants to survive because plants are idiots. So, on those grounds what makes plants expendable and the Ebola virus not expendable?
kevinite
I already told you. Food chain. When one is hungry and given the choice between a delicious buttery ear of corn or the Ebola virus, it is most likely healthier to eat the corn.
I did not know that an ent!ties intelligence was part of the equation when one is trying to gain sustinence?
I personally belong to PETA, which stands for People Eating Tasty Animals.
I tend to stay away from food that tries to eat me, such as the ebola.
Egg,
Like what I said that whether it's part of the food chain or not you are still harming that life form to survive just like one who is attacking the Ebola virus is attacking it to survive it as well. It was after that point where you went into the plants are idiots thing. Since you can't validate either of those points, then what is your point about bringing up the morality of humans attacking the Ebola virus in the first place?
igftar,
What lied more at the issue wasn't about eating or the food chain, it was about the morality of harming other life forms in order to survive.
Well played kevinite....well played.
Concert,
I have a question. If this is the only life you have to live and then, after you die, you will either stop existing or will be eternally tormented in Hell, then why are you wasting your life on internet forums trying to push people away from their faith?
Wouldn't your life be better spent enjoying the sunshine outside, or helping out at a soup kitchen, or flying a kite?
If this is your one life, it seems like a pretty big waste to spend it on these forums.
Who is trying to convince someone to abandon their faith? I don't care really. I am just pointing out the obvious.
1. In case you missed it, I WILL be in the sunshine riding the Thrill Rides at Six Flags today with my kids. Then on to Korea Town for a big celebration on Friday and some nerdy fun at the Renaissance Faire on Sunday. Doubt I will be blogging much this week.
Concert,
Every second you spend on these forums is one that you are not spending doing everything else. The opportunity cost for these blog posts is immense.
You could believe in Christ and get to go to Heaven if you want to, but if you don't, I would suggest spending your time in more fulfilling ways than just rehashing the problem of evil with us nerds on the internet.
Don't be so hard on yourself.
1. You are not a nerd. You are not cool enough.
2. I like this blog and enjoy being on it.
3. Take you own advice?
Egg,
1. I graduated MAGNA Cu.m Laude! Do you even know what that means? I do not, because I have never taken a course in Latin.
2. You would probably enjoy being a Christian more.
3. I have an eternity to not post on blogs. I feel like I should help some of you lost sheep come back to JC.
Oh I could never be Christian, they won't even let me in the church doors for fear the roof will collapse.
It means with great honor, or maybe with very great honor.
OHHHHHH!
That is much better than what I thought it meant...
Gotta get my mind out of the gutter.
"you will either stop existing or will be eternally tormented in Hell"
False dichotomy. You are assuming there are only 2 options available when there is nothing to indicate this is so. I could provide a dozen other alternate possibilities to the 2 you provided.
Here are all the options:
Heaven (eternal +)
Hell (eternal -)
Nothing (0)
Reincarnation gets you one of the above eventually because you either reincarnate until the end of the universe and disappear (Nothing), you reach nirvana (Heaven), or you get tossed out (Hell).
I know there are different variations of Heaven and Hell, but they all have the same net result (i.e., an eternity of joy, or an eternity of pain.)
What am I missing?
Every other religion has different versions of heaven and hell you need to include all of them as possibilities. Personally I hope hell is like it is on South Park and everyone is there, except for the Mormons who are all in heaven, and gets to go sweet sixteen parties for Satan.
If I was powerful enough to create the universe and the way that everything in the universe works, I would not let Frazier Glenn Cross mu.rder these poor people. I am pleased to say that is the difference between me and your god!
As I look over the replies each time I pose this thought to you, I am amazed at the thought level of you christian slave minds.
"Free Will" you bleat! What a joke. If there is free will then why would you even bother to pray? Either your god is in control or he is not in control. If there is free will then he is not in control. If he intervenes even once then the whole concept of free will dissolves!
You ask me how I would save these people from Frazier Glenn Cross. Are you serious!?!? With a click of my fingers or a thought in my head ... however you say your god created everything and set everything up. Oh, wait a minute. The bible is particularly v.ague on how he did it, just that it was done. How convenient.
When I "made" everything I wouldn't have "made" evil. I wouldn't have "made" war. I wouldn't have "made" hunger. I wouldn't have "made" disease. I wouldn't have "made" sorrow. I would have made a good and happy and productive place.
And don't go on about original sin. What sort of asinine fool tricks Eve into eating an apple so that he can then undo his master work that he put so much time into and turn it into the barely holding together chaos that we see today that he has to constantly micromanage? Seriously? Is that the best you've got.
Good grief!
If I were God, I would be mostly good, but I would like to get a few more wins out of the Lakers.
The Lakers? No.
Can't help it. Laker nation.
Lol. Still, no.
Good lord, ok fine. If I were a god, the Miami Dolphins would quit being a laughing stock and win some playoff games.
Lmao. The Dolphins? No.
...well then Tiger Woods could....just forget it.
Do you not appreciate that the world you describe would serve no purpose?
Other than possibly to make you feel good about yourself.
This is not a valid argument against the existance of god.
There is no god to disprove. You miss D-dog's point.
It is obvious that there is no god.
You still keep making a flawed argument to try to prove that pooint.
Nobody can prove there is no god(s). It is an opinion based on the facts or lack there of. You know this.
Colin,
Why think God is restricted from taking life? Can not the One who gives life take it as He pleases? I agree with William Lane Craig when he said that “God is under no obligation whatsoever to extend my life for another second. If He wanted to strike me dead right now, that’s His prerogative. What that implies is that God has the right to take the lives of the Canaanites when He sees fit. How long they live and when they die is up to Him.” If I were to go outside this afternoon and a bullet should strike me, killing me, God has certainly done me no wrong. Remember that each breath of air we take is dependent upon God allowing us to do so.
There is another aspect that I want to touch on that is very important to this subject. I believe that children and infants who die at a young age, before the age of accountability (which varies by each child) actually inherit eternal life, for God’s grace is imparted to them. It is important to remember that God works with eternity in view. God doesn’t wrong these children’s lives by removing them from the world. On the Age of Accountability view, those who haven't reached the age of accountability actually inherit the great blessing of being with God where believers, including myself long to be. Even Paul himself said that he desired to depart to be with Christ, which is better by far (Philippians 1:21). Notice that last part, “better by far”.
1. God already knows who he will kill and who he won't. It is written in his book according to scripture.
2. Children are innocent, as are most adults. Sin is a construct under which religious freaks can justify their god's atrocities.
3. There is no god involved in your life anyway so....silly.
Concert,
Would you say your innocent? Remember,
1. How many lies would you say you’ve told in your life?
2. Have you ever stolen anything regardless of its value?
3. Have you ever used God’s name as a curse word? (called blasphemy)
4.have you ever looked at a woman/man lustfully?(if so, Jesus said you have committed adultery with that person in your heart.)
Denying the existence of sin doesn't make it any less real.
Pretending in the existence of sin doesn't make it any more real.
I lied about a girl not looking fat once, is that enough to send me to hell?
Tf,
"4.have you ever looked at a woman/man lustfully?(if so, Jesus said you have committed adultery with that person in your heart.)"
What the difference between "lust in your heart" and appreciating a beautiful specimen of a human? And if you're trying to imply that Jesus never appreciated a beautiful human, I'm calling foul. If He was human, He did.
And is it adultery when you "lust in your heart" when one isn't married?
I love the way the religious start a sentence with "I believe ..." and go on to make up something entirely fanciful and outside the realms of anything factual, known or provable but feel that they have given an explanation.
comedy gold
I Believe; that the Lord, God, created the universe
I Believe; that He sent His only Son to die for my sins
And I Believe; that ancient Jews built boats and sailed to America
I Believe; that God has a plan for all of us
I Believe; that plan involves me getting my own planet
And I Believe; that in 1978 God changed his mind about black people!
I Believe; that God lives on a planet called Kolob
I Believe; that Jesus has his own planet as well
but Donny and Marie have such nice smiles ... so it must all be true eh?
Joseph Smith was the Donny Osmond of his time, certainly. I believe.
Is Mitt Romney running again? God I hope so. I need Mormon jokes like a fish needs water.
It is better to start off with "I believe" rather than "The fact is...", don't you think?
Akira,"I believe" you are right.
Dyslexic,
My reasoning is founded in the Bible. If you have no issue with the specifics other than broad sweeping general statements, what's the problem?
"My reasoning is founded in the Bible"
And the bible is founded in ignorance, and men's imaginations, so you have that going for you, which is nice....
Also, when you die, you will achieve total consciousness...
"Can not the One who gives life take it as He pleases?"
Only if he is an undisciplined child perhaps. Otherwise, no – creation does not automatically imply dominion.
It is a convenient way of stating "Do as I say, not as I do." regarding the 6th Commandment.
Indeed. I never ceased to be amazed that my moral compass seems more acute than a god described as being "love".
Why think God is restricted from taking life? Can not the One who gives life take it as He pleases?
If god exists he is certainly powerful enough to do anything he or she wants, but that doesn't mean it is the moral thing to do.
Who or what says what God does is not moral?
Anybody who has an opinion on the subject.
It's always interesting to see how believers say their "God" behaves (or will behave), with nary a whit of verified (nor verifiable) evidence.
It seems to tell a lot about their individual personalities.
Why have christians throughout the ages blamed the jews for killing jesus? Was jesus not a jew? Aren't the jews god's chosen people? Is this the same god?
John Dunbar: The strangeness of this life cannot be measured: in trying to produce my own death, I was elevated to the status of a living hero.
I'll bet someone back east is going, "Now why don't he write?"
and Dunbar's parting gift to the owner of that quote was a jar of pickled concerts in eggs ...
Better than pigs feet.
do they hold concerts in pig's feet?
I am still researching biblical painters from the 1400's on the feet thing...Bosch most likely did a piece like that. Or Dali later on. Eggs are big in the art world.
I believe the answer is because the followers of Jesus started off as a Jewish fringe group. When jews were reluctant to convert, the focus switched to converting "pagans". An non-jews they couldn't understand how the jews would reject the "obvious", that Jesus was god. So if it was impossible for it to be a simple misunderstanding, they must have known that he was god and rejected/executed him anyways.
You can see some of this in Jesus's trial in the gospels. The more recently written the gospel, the more explicitly anti-semetic the story becomes.
Almost forgot – and since Rome was the power-base for Paul's church, the Roman involvement was downplayed at the expense of the jews.
As soon as the chief priests and their officials saw him, they shouted, “Crucify! Crucify!”
But Pilate answered, “You take him and crucify him. As for me, I find no basis for a charge against him.”
7 The Jewish leaders insisted, “We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God.”
At this Passover time, I am reminded of my little nephew. He is great little kid, nine years-old and full of life and happiness. He came home crying the other day because a group of kids from Central America beat him up at school because Obama would not grant citizenship to the illegal aliens in the USA.
At the time of the setting of the Passover (about 1,250 BCE) the population of Ancient Egypt has been estimated at about 3 million. Most of the population were dirt poor, the kind of people Jesus would love, trying to eek out an existence and feed and raise their children under the despotic rule of the Pharaoh. As the Bible says of these poor, powerless folks, “The LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon.... And there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.”
If the population of ancient Egypt at the time averaged five people per household, this is about 600,000 homes with a first-born little boy who was murdered for something he had no control over. How many little twelve-year-old, eight-year-old and five-year-old boys were mercilessly butchered in the Passover? Holding these poor, powerless little children and their parents accountable for the actions of the Pharaoh is beyond unjust, it is barbaric.
It goes well beyond the schoolyard injustice that so upset my little nephew. It would be like an Afghan Muslim coming to the USA and slaying a few million children because Obama will not release the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay.
And yet, there it sits in the Bible and it is celebrated by Judeo-Christians all over the World. Of course, it never happened, is pure myth, but it demonstrates nicely how fundamentally flawed the Judeo-Christian doctrine is at its very tap root. The problem they face is that, when they created their sky-fairy, they gave him a morality suitable to the times. Times have rolled on, but they can't rewrite their holy book. They are now left struggling with a Bronze Age minted God in a morally much more advanced society. Like taking Attila the Hun to a Rhode Island garden party.
The Exodus story is tragic for sure, and no one should take lightly the wrath of God, and His hatred for sin. Even Moses, when he gave God's decree to Pharaoh that all the firstborn will die, he stormed out from his presence in "hot anger." (Exodus 11:8)
Not only is this a story about God's anger and wrath against sin, but it is also a foreshadow of the Christ who was to come who would be the "firstborn" (the preemminant) of God who would be slaughtered so that His people may be separated from wickedness, and set free.
Also, even though we may look on a child (although Egypt's Firstborn Curse was not just against children, for certain many old men were firstborn as well) as being innocent of any wrongdoing, that is by our human standards. By God's reconning, no one is innocent of sin. Man defines a sinner as one who has committed some wicked deed, but God defines a sin as a wicked deed done because man is wicked. You see, we are not sinners because we sin, but rather, we sin because we are sinners.
Every man is a sinner from birth, through a corrupt nature that he has inherited through his legal representative, Adam. And God, as judge over all the world, has the right to execute capital punishment on all men if He should choose. But it is because God is merciful that He chooses to save some. THIS is the picture of the Plague of the Death of the Firstborn.
So, we should all hate and fear you sky-fairy, then?
First, I don't know what you mean by the term "sky fairy." That has so many connotations, none of which apply to your creator. Next, "hate and fear" for a judge is only held by men who know they have broken the law. The innocent have no need to fear the judge.
Romans 13:1-5 – Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
" Next, "hate and fear" for a judge is only held by men who know they have broken the law. The innocent have no need to fear the judge."
Doublespeak. In other places, on other threads, you have opined that are none who have not broken the law, and none who are innocent. Yet I'm quite positive you are only too happy having it both ways.
The Theo Method:
dodge, dodge, slide, evade, reinterpret, twist, contort, lie, re-read, reinterpret ... see!!! the bible says exactly what I told you it says!!!
Yet I'm quite positive you are only too happy having it both ways.
------------
I said it that way because that is the analogy that Paul is making in Romans 13. No, of course none are "innocent" of sin, but a man who has had his debt paid for him has no fear of the judge, and in respect to the penalty of the law, he is now innocent.
Dog,
Your mistake is in thinking that if something has to be explained, then it must be wrong. But an explanation is no endictment on the thing being explained, but on the lack of understanding of the one for whom the explanation is given.
doG
Conversing with Theo reminds me of having to toilet train a puppy.
@Theo
an explanation must have Truth, Logic and Proof ... you can't just make up an extension to a fairy story or quote a random phrase of va.gary and circle speak from your book and think you have proved something.
Truth (and I mean real truth, not the way Christians use the word "truth" as whatever you imagine your god says or believes), logic (and know that retreat into mysticism is the first refuge of the cornered fool) and proof (which your religion is completely devoid).
So, all have broken the law doesn't really mean all have broken the law, and none are innocent doesn't really mean none are innocent. Thank you for that "clarification".
Theo
Wouldn't Pharaoh himself have been the firstborn of his parents? Why did he survive then?
Because he was actually third-born, the first two having died at a young age.
Theo
And how do you know that?
He's making it up.
There's a great book called "300 Times 0" on Amazon – http://www.amazon. com/300-Times-examination-prophecies-Jesus-ebook/dp/B00BDFMLAI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1397653354&sr=8-1&keywords=300+times+0 – which discusses the supposed 300 prophecies of Jesus from the Original Hebrew scriptures. I highly recommend this book for anyone interested in the topic of how the deity of Jesus became mistranslated and pulled out of the Bible to fit a Jewish Messiah who never existed. Fascinating book on religion and Judaism specifically. Puts a lot of these "fundamentalist" Christians to shame.
Brilliant post Colin. Sorry you just wasted your time though. Christian cognitive dissonance means the few who actually read it have already discounted it and recited themselves a few bible verses to ease that frightened feeling and make themselves feel better. Theo's replies a perfect example. Pitiful.
Colin,
Why think God is restricted from taking life? Can not the One who gives life take it as He pleases? I agree with William Lane Craig when he said that “God is under no obligation whatsoever to extend my life for another second. If He wanted to strike me dead right now, that’s His prerogative. What that implies is that God has the right to take the lives of the Canaanites when He sees fit. How long they live and when they die is up to Him.” If I were to go outside this afternoon and a bullet should strike me, killing me, God has certainly done me no wrong. Remember that each breath of air we take is dependent upon God allowing us to do so.
There is another aspect that I want to touch on that is very important to this subject. I believe that children and infants who die at a young age, before the age of accountability (which varies by each child) actually inherit eternal life, for God’s grace is imparted to them. It is important to remember that God works with eternity in view. God doesn’t wrong these children’s lives by removing them from the world. On the Age of Accountability view, those who haven't reached the age of accountability actually inherit the great blessing of being with God where believers, including myself long to be. Even Paul himself said that he desired to depart to be with Christ, which is better by far (Philippians 1:21). Notice that last part, “better by far”.
I love the way the religious start a sentence with "I believe ..." and go on to make up something entirely fanciful and outside the realms of anything factual, known or provable but feel that they have given an explanation.
comedy gold
I am reposting this because it pertains.
This [Passover] was during the Exodus. Christianity didn’t exist, unless you are going to be like Rainier and insist that Abraham was actually a Christian.
I was asking about what the Egyptian children’s sin was. If one says “nothing, really, they were just being used as pawns against Pharoah, whose heart God hardened in the first place, to persuade Pharoah to let the Israelites go”, that’s as good as answer as any, because as the OT is a primer for the Israelites, nothing else makes sense.
Now, the God of the OT was the Israelites God. They were His Chosen People. Not the Egyptians.
So I ask again , and please answer from the OT standpoint, why they had to be slaughtered?
And don’t give me “do you have any children?” bull. Those Egyptian children had no freakin say in any of it, and had no idea of who your Yaweh even WAS. This was a lesson FROM God TO Pharoah ABOUT Israelites.
No one dies because they don't know who God is. They die because they are sinners. And when little infants grow up to know right from wrong, every one of them, at some point will willingly choose to do what they know in their hearts is wrong because they want to please some longing in their heart. They willingly violate their own consciences and want to do wrong rather than right because their very natures are corrupt. Because their natures are corrupt, God has no obligation to prolong their life one second, it is only by God's mercies that anyone makes it to old age.
Oh, perhaps you missed the salient part if my questions: this is concerning Passover.
No, there were no "Christians" during the Exodus since the word "Christians" literally means "Christ's Ones." Since the Messiah had not yet come, no one could follow Him. BUT, the Exodus was a type. A foreshadow of the Messiah, so although they could not follow Christ per se, they were required to follow and believe the revelation up to that point (Revelation was progressive), and that meant that through every typology, every foreshadow, they believed that a deliverer would come – not a deliverer that would save them from the hands of an earthly enemy, but a deliverer who would save them from the ultimate enemy, that is, sin and death.
Unfortunately, the Jews became fixated on the idea of only an earthly deliverer... But that's another story for another time.
So it was a preview. Oh.
Again, what, exactly, was the reason given for the order for the firstborn to die?
After all, wasn't Pharoah's heart hardened deliberately by God?
Was that just so God could kill all of the firstborn?
And while I got you here, what are your thoughts that Abraham was really a Christian, and Jews were "just" descendants of him? (Implying that Jews played very little role in the history of Christianity)
This is not my idea; someone else made this assertion.
"Again, what, exactly, was the reason given for the order for the firstborn to die?"
-------------–
Two-fold... First, it was a picture of the "Firstborn" who would come and be killed for the salvation of many. Second, it was a direct assault on the Egyptians idol of Isis, the protector of children. Each of the 10 plagues were an assault on the false gods of Egypt.
"After all, wasn't Pharoah's heart hardened deliberately by God?"
-----------------
God’s decrees are not the necessitating cause of the sins of men, but the fore determined and prescribed bounding and directing of men’s sinful acts. God does not take up a good man, instill an evil desire into his heart, and thereby force him to perform the terrible deed in order to execute His decree. Instead, God decreed the act, and then selected the one who was to perform the act, but He did not “make him evil” in order that he should perform the deed. On the contrary, as seen in Judas’ case, Jesus' betrayer was “a devil” at the time the Lord Jesus chose him as one of the twelve. (John 6:70) And in the manifestation and exercise of his own devilry, God simply directed his actions – actions that were agreeable to Judas' own vile heart, and performed with the most wicked of intentions.
Do not think that God wrought evil in the heart of Pharaoh; God simply commands man’s evil will to do what comes naturally to it. When God “hardens Pharaoh’s heart,” it may be because God has removed His presence from him that he may not repent (Romans 9:17) and that he would reap the unintended consequences of his actions.
"Was that just so God could kill all of the firstborn?"
-------------
No. Unlike man, God does not kill for pleasure, nor for some petty whim. Every death is a righteous judgment against sin.
"And while I got you here, what are your thoughts that Abraham was really a Christian, and Jews were "just" descendants of him? (Implying that Jews played very little role in the history of Christianity)"
----------------–
Hmm. Interesting idea, but since "Christians" means "Christ's Ones," I don't see how anyone could be called a follower of Christ until He came in the flesh... UNLESS what he meant by that is that they (Abraham and his descendants) were believing in a Messiah to come, and since the word "Christ" is just the Greek word for the Hebrew "Messiah" then they could be Christians in that sense – in that they were looking for a Deliverer to Come. It was said of Abraham in Hebrews 11 that he believed God, and it was accredited to him as righteousness... What was it that he believed? That a deliverer would come. Not an earthly deliverer from an earthly enemy, but one who would be the ultimate deliverer. The one who would deliver from sin and death.
As to the Jews? Well, they were the recipients of the original gospel, but they shunned their Messiah.
In Ezekiel 16 in a passage that is often not even taught in modern Synagogues due to its graphic depiction of Israel, God explains His love for His own. Israel was unlovable, unwanted, hated, and despised, but simply because God chose to love them, He loved them, and lavished them with His divine blessings. Then Israel became proud and worshipped idols. Verses 46-47 say that Israel had acted worse than Sodom. So God gave them over to their enemies and punished them. BUT, because God chose to love them, He establishes an everlasting covenant with them so that they shall know that He is the LORD, and God will forgive them, for they are His. (See: Zechariah 12-13)
Zechariah 12:1-13:9 – This passage speaks of the time when Israel will repent, and turn to Jesus, and they will finally recognize Him as their Messiah…
When all the world turns against Israel in a great siege, God will miraculously save them, and at that time: “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him…”
I hope you've learned not to expect a short answer from me. :o)
Theo,
Lol. No, I don't expect a short answer from you.
And this person meant, because he stated it quite emphatically, that Abraham was Christian, in the sense of its meaning today. And as for the Jews, well, I rather think that he shares Cross's contempt, although he won't admit it.
And although you use the NT as an extension of the Old, I don't. I think they are two different things, and the New shouldn't be used to validate the Old, as I have too many questions about the Old that do not get answered to my satisfaction or in away that makes any sense.
But that's me. : ^ )
"And this person meant, because he stated it quite emphatically, that Abraham was Christian, in the sense of its meaning today. And as for the Jews, well, I rather think that he shares Cross's contempt, although he won't admit it."
---------------
When someone proclaims anything that adamantly that sounds suspect, I always follow with "Uh huh, and what verse is that?" As Christians (Christ's Ones) our authority is found only the Bible (Sola Scriptura), so if it can't be found in scripture either explicitly or implicitly, then it must be discarded.
"And although you use the NT as an extension of the Old, I don't. I think they are two different things, and the New shouldn't be used to validate the Old, as I have too many questions about the Old that do not get answered to my satisfaction or in away that makes any sense."
----------------
Meaning no offense, but the problem within Judaism that Jesus was all too ready to proclaim was that they didn't understand the scriptures (referring to the OT) in that it was they that spoke of Him. So if I say I use the NT in order to understand the OT, it is only because Jesus told us to do so. (Luke 22:44, John 12:41, and others...)
2 Corinthians 3:14-16 – But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
The only way to fully understand the Old Testament is to understand the New Testament – it is only then that one can see Jesus prophesied in the Old Testament. In Christ, the veil is taken away…
Theo:
I'm not Jewish. I'm not offended in the least. In fact, I'm amused.
I was just explaining why I don't take the OT as the springboard to the NT the way Christians do. And your follow up statement was one of the reasons why.
"And your follow up statement was one of the reasons why."
------------–
Why? Because Jesus and the Apostles told us to interpret the OT in light of the NT?
What scholar even says "neo-pagan" ? All gods are worth just as much as the next. Nothing.
Actually, it is a correct term, though not entirely accurate when applied to Asatru and other Reconstructionists. It is more appropriately applied to Wiccans and all of the off shoots of Wicca.
You don't really "believe" in Odin, as much as you emulate him by simply representing YOURSELF through your own actions, and the actions of the people you associate with. In that sense, no Odinist really represents Odin other than their ability to stand by and pursue what they want in life unwaveringly. Our Teutonic ancestors were first and foremost people of action. If you're an Odinist, you stand by your actions as representative of who you are, and what you want in life, and you understand that the only "divine" judgement is how your community remembers you. Obviously no two Odinists necessarily want the same thing. I'm an Odinist, and I except this man as being an Odinist as well. He did what he believed in, regardless of how obscene I consider his actions to be. Was he honorable? Not at all by my standards. Was he a good man, or a bad man, or something in between? That depends on what his community remembers him as. Heathenism (Germanic Paganism) is all about being responsible for your own actions. What we are remembered as depends on what each of us wants in life, what we are willing to do to get it, and which community we swear our allegiance to. whether that means slaughtering women, children and Jews (or Palestinians) in the name of one's race (or religion), or whether you serve the FSM, are a staunch atheist, and donate your time and money to whatever popular charity. You build your own reality, and you must stand by it unwaveringly, as a warrior. That is what Odin decrees. Odin doesn't care about your opinion, or your politics, or even your conception of reality. He cares about what you DO, and so naturally what you are remembered as.
"Cattle die, kinsmen die, you yourself must die; I know one thing which never dies: the judgment of a dead mans life"
– Hovamol
Isn't religion just wonderful?
The pitiful person is pure hate. Nevertheless, he should be allowed to commit suicide by some civilized method.
screw that. throw him in the general prison population with some pipe hittin' brothers, a blowtorch and a set of pliers
and go medieval on his a$$
As a pagan and Odinist, I have some news for Mr. Cross.
Our Lord Odin, Master of Magic, Warrior of Warriors, The Hanged Enlightenment, doesn't take kindly to his followers killing defenseless women, children and old men.
Know why?
Because he wants courageous warriors, men and women who die valiantly in battle, or struggle against overwhelming odds with truth upon their lips and courage in their hearts. Unlike yours, their souls are collected by the Valkarie, and taken to Valhalla, where they feast and fight eternally in Odin's sacred presense, preparing for Ragnarok, the Twilight of The Gods, when Baldr will inherit the throne of Asgard, and a new Eon will begin.
Odin doesn't chose the murderers of women and children and old men for this honor. He despises such cowardliness. So you can forget any help from The Master of All. His face is turned from you, and you are alone.
The FSM is the one true god and would kick your sissy god's ass!
or at least whip him with his noodly appendages ...
And rub his holy meatballs all up in the punk's face?
It's the time of year that we celebrate the murder of innocent children. Happy Passover everyone. I'm sure those Egyptian kids had it coming. God couldn't be wrong.
Maybe you should listen next time God turns all your water to blood, kills all your cattle, sends swarms of frogs and locusts, darkens the sky, and sends fire-laced hail.
Yeah, that guy who is telling you that all this is happening because you refuse to let his people go? You should probably listen to him.
What were the children's sin?
Do you have children? They sin all the time. But luckily those children are in heaven as we speak.
Sorry, my children do not sin all time but that is because they are not members of the dead jew zombie cannibal vampire death cult aka christianity and therefore not subject to your alleged but never proven god's guilt trips and other nonsense. Enjoy your delusions, but please, keep them away from children.
" Sorry, my children do not sin all the time."
The ultimate delusion.
Sok, azzhole, if you know so much about my children, list a few of their sins.
Pride, greed, selfishness, disobedience, lying, deception, anger.... need I go on? Pretty much the same sins that my kids are guilty of, as are their parents.
dev...are those innate sins or are they learned?
Both.
Do you have kids?
x4
Sorry, can't agree. I'm not saying they're perfect but they're not how you characterize them.
You should have brought your children up better, beginning with keeping them away from religion and the dead jew zombie death cult.
...
You certainly are under no obligation to agree. It just means you're wrong.
I think when I listed those items the natural tendency is to view them in terms of their worst presentations. This was not my intent. Sin is often subtle and in many instances can be confined to the mind. My point was not that your children are exceptionally bad, but rather that they are probably exceptionally normal in their human condition.
"...it just means you're wrong..." LOL!
Humor intended.
Thanks for demonstrating how sick christianity is. I would never describe any children, not even the children of mentally ill, delusional believers, as you have, not without clear evidence, but evidence is not something that delusionals value very highly, so it is easy to understand that you think your sicko views are correct. I feel sorry for your children.
No worries, you have no need to be concerned for my children. While admittedly a little biased, the moral character and personal integrity my children have developed over the years will send me to the grave both a happy and satisfied man.
Topher.
This was during the Exodus. Christianity didn't exist, unless you are going to be like Rainier and insist that Abraham was actually a Christian.
I was asking guidans about what the Egyptian children's sin was. If you say "nothing, really, they were just being used as pawns against Pharoah, whose heart God hardened in the first place, to persuade Pharoah to let the Israelites go", that's as good as answer as any, because as the OT is a primer for the Israelites, nothing else makes sense.
Now, the God of the OT was the Israelites God. They were His Chosen People. Not the Egyptians.
So I ask again , and please answer from the OT standpoint, why they had to be slaughtered?
And don't give me "do you have any children?" bull. Those Egyptian children had no freakin say in any of it, and had no idea of who your Yaweh even WAS.
I applaud topher's statement: "Do you have children? They sin all the time..."
It helps to confirm that the God of the OT/NT is merely a human creation. Using your Christian terminology, I hope Noah will teach you humility, grace, mercy, kindness, and awe....and how to see him through eyes not blinded by your pathetic ideology.
You sure get wood thinking about sin, don't you Topher?
No, ddeevviinn, heaven and hell are the ultimate delusions.
All these children will eventually leave home, go off to school and come to the realization that their parents have been lying to them and have wilfully remained ignorant.
For anyone to think so poorly of their innocent children is pathetic...telling innocent children they are broken because the bible says they are born of original sin is abusive and those children should be removed from the care of these dolts.
truth
I had no idea it was possible to pack so much fallacious drivel into two sentences.
You can continue to kick and scream against this concept of sin and to live in your fantasy world of " innocent children", but the reality of every day life places your illogical nonsense on display. I do have high hopes that eventually you will do justice to your username.
If god had actually done all of that most of the first born probably would have starved to death before god had a chance to wipe them out himself.
According to the story god hardened the heart of Pharaoh so that he wouldn't let them go. I guess god just enjoys killing kids.
No, an alleged but never proven god could not be wrong, but the men that invented it surely could be!
I'll wait for more overwhelming Evidence for the Absolute, Complete and Total Hot air of atheism/evolutionism/idolatry and of course now Odinism and Paganism, in the next 5 minutes. Atheism/evolutionism/idolatry/Odin worship/paganism etc. are all Total NONSENSE all over, anywhere, everywhere, anytime all the time every time and Forevermore.
Why can't we use smileys anymore? Was fun!! ; – )
Hey crazy man, I just caught the latest episode of Cosmos...the 'creation' you mentioned earlier in regards to what Neil said was about the Egyptian God of Creation-is that the god you worship?
I hear that show is awful. Have you seen it?
Cosmos? Excellent shows, both the original and the new one with N dGT.
I have great respect for Neil De Grasse Tyson. You might not like it due to his reaction throughout it on 'beliefs in the supernatural' in general though.
In my honest opinion, I think it is good and worth watching but if you're not willing to reconsider your position in the slightest, then it would probably not appeal to you.
Hope you and your wife and Baby Noah are doing well.
The show is awfully awesome!
From whom did you hear it was awful? Please consider the source.
Here is an arbitrary Google hit:
http://www.metacritic.com/tv/cosmos-a-space-time-odyssey
I have seen it. It is great
Perhaps you would not like it because it does not agree with your viewpoint
....who believe that Jesus is too peaceful and too Jewish to worship, White said. "It's hard to get a violent god out of Jesus."
We can agree 100% on that!
I assume you really meant that you agree with the second half.
The Avenging Lord Christ returning at Armageddon, however, will be about as violent a god as anyone can imagine, right?
Yup!! NO doubt about it.
Yeah, that Christ is the worse god imaginable.
Lucky for us that everything imaginable isn't necessarily real.
Well, not so hard. While less capricious than his “father,” also had his moments. At points in his ministry, he said, “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.”; and, in talking about people who try to dissuade young people from following him, "If anyone causes one of these little ones–those who believe in me–to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea”
Then, of course, we have his (in)famous pronunciation on how to treat slaves; “And that slave who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be severely beaten. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of a severe beating, shall be beaten only lightly. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.”
This is not necessarily a personality flaw, given the times he lived in. Plato and Aristotle also supported slavery, as did most of the World until relatively recently. But, it does significantly undermine the claim that he was the peace-loving son of the Jewish sky-god.
Well yeah but of course, you conveniently omitted the previous text as is customary with atheist/idolaters/pagans.
Let's just review in Context
Luke 12:42-45
42 And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time?
43 "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.
44 "Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
45 "But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, [both] men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk;
Yes, context is a good thing. Let me copy the entire pericope.
41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
King James Version
Definitely a whacko.
I find it interesting that an omniscient, omnipotent God created humans with a plethora of physical flaws, (genetic diseases, vulnerabilities to microorganisms, etc.) and humans have been the ones to systematically eliminate them by their own ingenuity. Did God create us with these flaws as a homework assignment for humans?
How did humans take it into their own hands to correct these issues? Initially, they made appeals to their Gods through prayer and sacrifice. They thought it worked, selection bias driving belief in such behavior, when by random chance people got better or when it didn't people chalked it up to the Gods being dissatisfied. Gradually, they started exploring their world scientifically. Over time, we improved the scientific method and we now understand how our bodies work at the molecular level. This knowledge has allowed us to eliminate some diseases and ameliorate many others.
There's still a ways to go, but the following is recent progress towards the next fix to God's handiwork:
"Researchers found that the overproduction of the protein known as p25 may be the culprit behind the sticky protein-fragment clusters that build up in the brains of Alzheimer's patients. The work, which was published in the April 10 issue of Cell, could provide a new drug target for the treatment of the disease that affects more than five million Americans"
" I find it interesting that an omniscient, omnipotent God created humans with a plethora of physical flaws ..."
What I find even more interesting is how convenient it was to omit that little three letter word upon which the issue hinges.
On a side note, there has been fascinating research done by Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn out of the Cleveland Clinic in relation to diet and arteriosclerosis/Alzheimers and p25 protein. My wife and I have radically changed our diet in the past 3 years based on his, et al, research.
I adopted some of his recommendations as well. My sample size of 1 results are very positive, I feel much better. My results are confounded by exercise as well, but who cares, my life isn't a controlled experiment.
How about cheese, boston? I barely eat any meat anymore, but cheese – well that's another story.
I originally gave up cheese, but I eased it back in. I don't feel any bad effects, but the cheese intake is pretty low.
My wife, who has the self discipline of a Buddhist monk, has gone virtually three years without consuming any animal protein. She says she has never felt better and would never go back to her previous dietary habits. I've reduced my animal protein intake by about 75%. Just haven't been able to forego the occasional pizza or T-Bone.
You mean the three letter word that only applies to members of the cult that defines it dddeevviinn?
Sam
I'll say this for you: At least you recognize (it's obvious from your posts) the ramifications of this doctrine of original sin.
I think it's fairly obvious to anyone who has study human history that there was no original sin and we have been evolving socially and morally for tens of thousands of years. If there were some breed of more perfect human that lived over 800 years as the bible describes the first humans we would have found evidence of them and their culture or at least evidence of the global flood that was supposed to have wiped them out. What does exist are human burial remains from nearly 45,000 years ago that show we had roughly the same life span as our neanderthal neighbors. What does this mean for "original sin"? It means it's a completely fabricated concept used to control other less educated humans, nothing more. It's like telling your young son not to touch any girls because they'll get cooties.
neverbeen
" I think it's fairly obvious to anyone who has studied human history that there was no original sin."
You simply just made that up. Even a cursory glance at world religion demographics would reveal this fallacy.
"It means it's a completely fabricated concept used to control much less educated humans, nothing more."
And yet large numbers of highly intelligent, academically astute individuals embrace the doctrine. Go figure.
Yes, there are still some very intelligent people who through childhood indoctrination believe in fairy tales, so what? You have zero proof for the theory of original sin, I have mountains of historical data collected showing life for our ancestors tens of thousands of years ago with similar life spans to neanderthals and interbreeding going on so I can pretty much catagorically deny the Genesis myth of original sin and ancient humans with 800 year life spans that we are now imperfect versions of. Original sin is total and utter hogwash on every level.
" still some very intelligent people who through childhood indoctrination believe in fairy tales."
In less than 5 seconds of reading this statement I thought of three of my close friends, two of which are electrical engineers, the other a chemical engineer, each of whom grew up in households void of faith. As fully functioning, lucid adults, they each concur with the doctrine of original sin.
ddeev....then they are idiots. What about 'no evidential proof' do you people not understand? There is no proof....none....that there is any controlling or guiding 'wizard' in our universe. This is really not that difficult to understand, is it?
"Original Sin"
I don't believe there was ever a point when there was only 2 humans (biology doesn't work that way in my experience). No Adam and Eve, no original sin.
Don't forget that no original sin means no need for Jesus.
I'm not real clear on what your posting has to do with a man killing others, but... nonetheless, he must be forgiven for his ways and means. God and His Son offer grace and forgiveness. We should do no less. It is very sad, but humans have different ways of 'being' and free choice to hurt or help. This man just chose the wrong direction. God bless him.
It doesn't have much to do with this story, just that religion is used in bad ways by some people. My comment calls into question the God of the bible. The biblical God makes no sense to me (not that Odinism makes more sense).
boston,
You are just ignoring the Biblical narrative in your post.
Garden of Eden
Man made perfect
Man sins/separates himself from God
Man falls
... You end up with all the flaws you see in humanity today.
It is fine if you don't believe in it, but you are arguing against a belief that Bible-believing Christians don't have, i.e., that God made us imperfect.
Adam tore down the bridge to God with his sin and Jesus brought it back with His sacrifice. You want to have a perfect body? Believe in Christ and wait until He returns.
Done deal.
guide,
I know the story. I find it repulsive though. God loves man, his first created pair screws up (who's fault is that?) and the rest of mankind is afflicted with disease. Phew!
(remember, we're now friends)
actually, sin/rebellion/unbelief brought death. sickness and all the other forms of affliction are death- just a slow form leading to eventual death.
guidans is 100% correct in what he's stated.
Because we're all born physically in Adam, we're all already dead – we do not have the spirit of the living God dwelling within us.
Christ Jesus' death/sacrifice gave us life (remember without Christ, we're all dead). Christ made it possible for the Spirit of the living God to move back into man, thus restoring him to everlasting life.
Yeah, it sucks. You gotta think that Adam and Eve had the perfect life. They had everything they could ever ask for and they were in direct fellowship with God. Even in that perfect set-up, they screwed up. They had one temptation. Just one, and they were willing to give up everything just to have it.
I can understand if you don't like the story or don't think it's fair, but it's the Biblical narrative and it is what we believe.
It also does not show anything negative about God's character. God gave man everything and man chose to give it up. God just allowed the consequences of sin to take hold. You can't have love without choice, and you can't have choice without the possibility of sin.
We're not disagreeing on the basis of the story. You both find it good, I find it abhorrent behavior for a purported God. You get to have your opinion, same for me.
"God gave man everything and man chose to give it up."
I had no voice in that choice. Why does Adam get to choose for all mankind? This is the anti.thesis of free will.
The actions of our predecessors have consequences that effect us today. We may be exposed to injustice, disease, and pollution due to no fault of our own. I don't think that makes you and I repulsive, though. Nor is the world we live in completely repulsive. We can still rise above these setbacks.
But maybe you are just having a negative chemical reaction in your brain to the stimulus we call reality.
Dalahast,
No doubt that past actions by humans affect us today (good and bad). That also wasn't our choice, we live with that. It's different when a group of people claim that you have free will regarding eternity. By this interpretation, 1 person made a choice for every succeeding person. Why would an omniscient God allow something so grossly unfair. Not everyone believes in hell, but if hell is part of the bargain, this is immoral.
boston: "I had no voice in that choice. Why does Adam get to choose for all mankind?"
that's a correct statement but it doesn't end there.
Adam lost everything.
Jesus gained it all back, and gave it back to you.
Many have chosen to believe the Adam narrative [in Adam all die], but have neglected to believe the Jesus narrative [in Christ Jesus all live].
So while it's true that it's not fair regarding Adam, the same is true for Jesus. It's not fair that Jesus made us righteous and obedient before a Holy God so that we can go boldly before Him, because God doesn't see us as sinners, unholy, or unrighteous. Instead He sees us through the blood of Jesus- perfect, holy and righteous. This is not fair, but it is what Jesus has done for us.
So why do many still choose to believe they're in Adam rather than in Christ?
I don't think God is unfair.
Our choices we make have consequences. We are responsible for our actions. Life is unfair. And often when we suffer because of the actions of others, we can actually grow and become stronger. And then when others suffer from evil and tragedy, we can help them through their suffering. Often in the midst of tragedy and terror, you can find victims singing praises to God in the streets. They have lost their possessions, family members and refuse to let evil take them.
Evil be damned.
One small question: why the Tree of Knowledge? God is omniscient, and omnipotent. He has no need for such a tree.
I've always wondered at the motive if creating that tree, fully knowing where it would lead...
should add, this is absolute free will. you choose to believe who you're of: Adam or Christ.
Throughout scripture, Jesus tells us : LET
Let this mind be in you that's also in Christ
Let not your heart be troubled etc.
All these "Lets" suggests free will. God is not going to do it for you. You have to give the Holy Spirit permission to "Let".. so we all have free will.
"Adam lost everything.
Jesus gained it all back, and gave it back to you."
Not everything. Go back to the OP, why didn't disease go away when Jesus sacrificed for us?
Dala,
Life is not fair, fact. That doesn't mean God should be unfair, he is omniscient and omnipotent.
After Adam and Eve listened to and believed a voice other than God's, they gained a new knowledge.
As much as it was about disobedience, it is also about how they reacted. They lied, shifted blame, hid and felt shame about how they were.
God made this world imperfect and said that is ok. What if Adam and Eve would have just confessed and accepted what they did? Instead they acted like most of us still do today, which prevented the healing power of God's forgivness into their life.
This type of human behavior, which plagues both believer and non-believer, seems to be inherited from our parents and their parents. Both culturally and physically.
Who told them they were naked and unworthy of a Holy God?
new-man
"should add, this is absolute free will. you choose to believe who you're of: Adam or Christ."
What if you don't see yourself as either of Adam, or Christ? Sorry, but I really don't see any reason to believe this stuff.
I know people who aren't as privileged or fortunate as you, who claim God is fair.
God doesn't give me what I want, so I think he is unfair sometimes. But when I see I have everything I need, I see I myself am unfair.
So Dalahast, I guess I can add Adam and Eve to the mythological beings you believe in. And, I assume, the talking snake? Do you believe in the talking snake from Genesis?
Dala,
You are obviously ok with a God like that, I'm not. I find it anti.thetical to a loving all powerful, all knowing God.
An omniscient God knows exactly what he created. God could give free will to Adam and Eve and still knows what the outcome is. I find the whole story childish.
"I know people who aren't as privileged or fortunate as you, who claim God is fair."
How is that relevant? I'm not complaining about my life at all. I am arguing that the entire Judeo-Christian God set up is fundamentally conflicted with itself. It is not self consistent in my opinion. You are fine with it, great.
bostontola, yes it is pretty childish. But, in fairness to the authors (the Yahwist and Elohist sources) it was written around 2,800 years ago, when literature was much less developed. One can hardly expect literary sophistication from wandering late Bronze Age Jewish sheep and goat herders.
Amazing, though, that some grown adults still believe the tale today.
colin,
I agree, it was an amazing leap forward for that time. Not so much today.
So did we get the neanderthal DNA before or after Adam and Eve?
Seriously though, debating the ins and outs of two completely fictional characters can be amusing but it really doesn't get anyone anywhere.
Maybe someday they will have a ComiCon or Star Trek like convention for all of you to discuss who your favorite fantasy character is... oh wait, I guess they just call that Church. It's as if religion has been the LARP'ing community long before anyone even knew what Live Action Role Playing was!
colin31714
A talking snake seems unbelievable to me. I don't think it was ever intended to be a literal story. But it illustrates the nature of the relationship between us creatures and our Creator.
When Neil Degrasse Tyson says "I was called by the universe and that was my first true encounter with what I would call wonder.", do you think he means the universe literally called him on his phone? Or called him audibly?
Is it childish to describe something in poetic terms that we have no words or scientific means to describe?
The story still reveals truths today that trump the stories told by 'ipad couch age men' like Colin who seem to be all talk, no action.
Dalahäst
"After Adam and Eve listened to and believed a voice other than God's, they gained a new knowledge."
So, the moral here is that we would have been better off ignorant? Is it really a vice to seek out knowledge?
How could Adam and Eve possibly hide from an omniscient God?
Yea, I'm sure if they became more sophisticated like the internet-atheist message board posters of 2014 they would write up "cute tests" filled with loaded questions and childish understandings of religion that simply support Colin's preconceived notions.
kudlak
They tried to hide. But they couldn't. But they kept trying. Ever watch a little kid get busted in a lie? Heck, even adults try to hid the truth and refuse to accept their part.
"So, the moral here is that we would have been better off ignorant? Is it really a vice to seek out knowledge?"
Exactly. If there is one thing Christians teach it's ignorance is bliss.
free will is inconsistent with an omniscient god, new-man
perhaps a course in logic would benefit you
but likely not
In Greek mythology, the first man was created by Prometheus, and it was he who defied the gods by giving fire to humanity. This roughly matches Adam bringing knowledge to humanity.
Pandora was the first woman, and she was created by the gods, who opened up a jar out of curiosity containing all the evils of the world. Eve is also blamed for being the cause of all ill.
Seems that there were somewhat common themes, eh?
samstones/Sam Stone
Just because God knows what choices we make, doesn't mean we aren't freely making our own choices.
God can also limit his power and let us choose our own way. There is nothing logical that prevents such a thing. You are not a perfectly logical being and can't decide for others how an omniscient God has to act.
God is not limited by your understanding.
boston: "Not everything. Go back to the OP, why didn't disease go away when Jesus sacrificed for us?"
actually everything.
when you wrote about the research re: p25 protein, and changing your diet etc. my response which I didn't post was this:
"you can also do it God's way and just proclaim life, health, and healing over every cell in your body every single day". However I know how this will go over, but it doesn't change God's word and how we're meant to appropriate the word.
My son, attend to my words; consent and submit to my sayings. Let them not depart from your sight; keep them in the center of your heart. For they are life to those who find them, healing and health to all their flesh.
But you have to choose to "LET" the word work for you. Many people read and do the word once and if they see no changes they conclude it doesn't work and stop. Not so. The word is the seed. A seed takes time to germinate and put down roots – in your heart. Remember, the stronger and deeper the root, the stronger the tree, and then after growth you'll begin to have fruit. How you get fruit, you know not how, just sow the word.
we're even told Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father and He's waiting until all His enemies become His footstool. That final enemy is death.
Boston, there are a lot of things going on in the world that doesn't show up on CNN and other news outlet. Many will laugh and scoff at what I'm saying but I know what I'm speaking of.
Right now, disease and death are being conquered. It's not yet 100% conquered, but the journey has already begun and those who are doing the word will make His enemies His footstool.
Christ has already done everything, including getting rid of disease. It is now up to us, who are kings and priests to start using our words, to realize all that He has already done.
Dalahäst
8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?” Gen 3:8-9
Why would an omniscient God have to ask where they were? Because he's also "walking", doesn't this story go back to a time when God was seen as anthropomorphic like all the other gods?
"Right now, disease and death are being conquered. It's not yet 100% conquered, but the journey has already begun and those who are doing the word will make His enemies His footstool."
Right now the work of curing disease and attempting to defeat death is being done right now, methodically with peer reviewed science.
"Christ has already done everything, including getting rid of disease."
Yes, all humans are "cured" of their disease when they pass away. So far there has not been a single case of any human not dying, so I can only assume that will continue until we humans figure out how to make our cells continually regenerate.
Come on people! Get with the program! The alleged but never proven god can do anything it likes 'cause that is how man has defined it! And it can't be detected because? That is how man has defined it! Totally consistent, if you are a mentally ill, delusional believer!
kudlak
I've been told that that is a rhetorical question. God knew the answer. Like when a parent busts a kid for doing something like writing on the wall. A parent will often ask: Did you write on the wall? When they fully know the kid did.
Akira,
I don't think it was so much the tree of knowledge of good and evil, as it was the command not to eat of that tree (partake of that particular doctrine).
Why didn't satan tempt Eve to kill Adam or the other way round? Because there was no law or command against killing. The command was against eating of the tree and that was the area in which the devil brought doubt – "Did God say"
so we should always be asking, what then is "doubt" that the devil has been successfully using it against man so effectively.
Why does man constantly doubt the words of his creator.
Jesus never doubted His Father. As Bill Johnson said "Heaven is filled with complete trust and confidence in God"
who among us can say the same thing – ie. we have complete trust and confidence in God.
new-man,
Humans discovering cures now didn't help all the people who died from them for the last 2,000 years. Plenty will die to come as well. No, man has his future in his own hands, good or bad. That is our real choice, a good future sharing this world, or do we continue to over use the resources and poison it for future generations. The life humans have on earth is a fact, any other existence is pure speculation.
Nee-man,
Thanks for your answer...but what I really want to know is why was it there in the first place?
Why would God even have to test A&E at all? What was the point? To see if they would fail? He already knew they would.
Dalahäst
Do you just accept everything you're told about the Bible? How about one for God "walking" in his Garden? Is there a convenient answer to that problem verse too?
Adam would have been a grown man, right? Would you accept being treated like this by one of your parents now? Then again, does God ever allow his "children" to grow up as we understand the term, independent of their parent(s)? No, right?
Anyone who thinks that Adam and Eve actually existed shouldn't also claim to embrace science because science shows that the Adam and Eve story is impossible.
Just because God knows what choices we make, doesn't mean we aren't freely making our own choices.
I call this the illusion of free will. As it may seem like you are making a choice, but if god knows what choice you are going to make, and can't be wrong then the choice has really already been made for you.
'Man made perfect
Man sins/separates himself from God"
In my mind, these are 2 mutually exclusive statements. If perfect, then how did he become imperfect? The very act would imply that he wasn't perfect to begin with.
If free will requires the ability to do good and evil, how can it be said that they had free will BEFORE partaking of the tree? If they had no knowledge of good or evil, they didn't have free will. If they didn't have free will, how can they (and all their decendants, so much for the "sins of the father") be held responsible?
Can we just call him a psychopath and be done with it.
I agree. That's exactly what he is.
" I agree "
When a theist and a non theist can reach a consensus on this forum, it is a good day.
I have told you before I'm not an atheist. But I'll forgive you for forgetting that. Wink. (They won't let me use emoticons.)
Agnostic would be included in non theist. My apologies if you are neither.
Perhaps you're a conservative Presbyterian like myself?
I was Presbyterian many years ago. My two older kids were baptized in our Presbyterian Church...
I would be hard pressed to label myself now, though. A little bit of all, a little of none.
As the saying goes, it's complicated. I'll find my way eventually.
My last sentence came out wrong; I'm not list at all and didn't mean to imply that I was.
Actually, the " Presbyterian like myself" line was meant in jest. I took you for an individual who had either abandoned or never held a belief in God/gods.
Perhaps that last line was a Freudian slip ? Wink
Devin,
Nah. Sometimes a cigar doesn't mean anything more than a cigar. Just bad phrasing.
What's wrong with Murderer? O yes I forgot you rather sugarcoat it my bad!
Yes, you bad.
And don't forget ignorant as well.....
A psychopath fueled by religion and Jesus Juice!
Why not a more accurate Murderer? Has he been put to sleep yet?
Yes, he is a psychopath. As more people discover Paganism, more psychopaths will claim to be Pagan... just as psychopaths over the years have claimed to be Christian, Muslim, atheist, etc.