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April 17th, 2014
08:00 AM ET
Did Christians really 'steal' Easter?Opinion by Candida Moss, special to CNN [twitter-follow screen_name='CandidaMoss'] (CNN) - It’s that time of year again: the time when chocolate comes in pastels, cherry blossoms start to bloom and well-marketed religion exposés are released to the world. In other words, it’s Easter. Among the rash of sensationalist stories we can expect through the season, the annual “Easter was stolen from the pagans” refrain has sprouted again just in time for Holy Week. Don’t believe the hype. Perhaps most misinformed theory that rolls around the Internet this time of year is that Easter was originally a celebration of the ancient Near Eastern fertility goddess Ishtar. This idea is grounded in the shared concept of new life and similar-sounding words Easter/Ishtar. There’s no linguistic connection, however. Ishtar is Akkadian and Easter is likely to be Anglo-Saxon. Just because words in different languages sound the same doesn’t mean they are related. In Swedish, the word “kiss” means urine. But the biggest issue for Christians is the claim that Jesus’ resurrection - the faith’s central tenet - might have pagan roots. Even apart from whether or not Jesus actually rose from the dead, many Christians claim that the very idea is unique. There are other biblical examples of people being raised from the dead – think of Jesus raising Lazarus. But those people went on to die again. Only Jesus was raised from the dead to live forever. But there’s a problem: Pre-Christian religions are replete with dying and rising gods. Dionysius, most commonly thought of as the Greek god of wine, is one such example. He was lured to his death by the Titans, who then boiled and ate him. He was revived by his grandmother, and from his ashes humanity was formed, the Greeks believed. Farther afield, Osiris – an Egyptian god-king who became ruler of the realm of the dead – was slaughtered before being brought back to life by Isis. A similar story is found in the case of the Greek goddess Persephone, the daughter of the harvest goddess Demeter. Persephone was carried off to the underworld by the love-struck Hades. Because she ate pomegranate seeds in the underworld, she was permitted to leave only for six months a year. Her annual resurrection is a metaphor for the changing of the seasons, and many scholars think that stories about dying and rising deities are essentially explanations for the coming of winter. Then there’s Mithras, an ancient Iranian deity popular among Roman soldiers. Among the many claims made about Mithras are that he was born on December 25, that adherents to his cult practiced baptism, and that he died and was resurrected. The connections between Christ and Mithras are further amplified by the fact that the church of St. Clement, near the Colosseum in Rome, is built on top of an ancient Mithraeum. The list goes on, and I’ll admit it’s a bit unsettling. That's why the accusations that Christians “stole” the Resurrection from the Pagans is so popular and rhetorically powerful. If, as many Christians claim, Christianity’s against-the-odds success is in some way proof of its authenticity and truth, then what does it say that parts of its truth were stolen from religious movements that no longer exist? Spiritual “Manifest Destiny” looks less persuasive when extinct religious traditions supplied the backbone for the modern-day Church. But there are ways around some of these problems. Lumping all of these stories of dying and rising gods into a single category obscures important differences between them. Some of those who rose as gods, for example, were mere human beings prior to their return. Jesus, in contrast, was divine before his death, according to Christian theology. Also, some of the parallels between the traditions come from a later period (post-Christianity) or are completely unsubstantiated. The arguments about Mithras and Jesus, for example, have completely fallen apart in the past 50 years because there simply isn’t enough ancient evidence to support them. We should also ask whether the fishermen who followed Jesus around Palestine would have known about (much less adopted) stories from ancient Egyptians and Babylonians. Greek and Roman mythology circulated widely on coins, but would the followers of Jesus who first claimed that Jesus was resurrected have known these stories in great detail? Perhaps, perhaps not. On the other hand, many Christians claim that Jesus’ death and resurrection is subtly different from that of other ancient deities and, thus, that the resurrection of Jesus was a wholly new idea. The problem is, these apologists are one archeological discovery away from disaster. In the meantime, they are trying to pry Christianity apart from other late antique religions in order to protect it. Perhaps the real problem here is with the idea of uniqueness. As the University of Chicago scholar Jonathan Z. Smith showed, there’s a huge ideological and religious investment in the idea that Jesus was unique. But there doesn’t have to be. Just because one idea is influenced by another idea doesn’t mean that its meaning is determined by the chronologically prior idea. The Founding Fathers may have been influenced by Greek classical tradition, but this doesn’t mean that we should interpret the Constitution in light of Aristotle. You can recognize both the importance and innovation of the Constitution and its roots in ancient European civics. Rather than battening down the hatches and looking for other signs of uniqueness, Christians need to think about how meaning relates to tradition. Christians didn’t steal Easter, but it probably wasn’t a wholly new idea, either. Candida Moss is the author of the “Myth of Persecution” and “Ancient Christian Martyrdom” and professor of New Testament and early Christianity at the University of Notre Dame. The views expressed in this column belong to Moss.
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Hislop, in his work The Two Babylons, explains that it was the normal practice of the Catholic church to integrate paganism into its liturgy. This was done to attract pagan converts.
To conciliate the pagans to nominal Christianity, Rome, pursuing its usual policy, took measures to get the Christian and Pagan festivals amalgamated, and, by a complicated but skillful adjustment of the calendar, it was found no difficult matter, in general, to get Paganism and Christianity – now sunk far in idolatry – in this as in so many other things, to shake hands. (p. 105)
It is clear that the church of Rome did not find it difficult to embrace pagan practices and integrate them into their own worship. But God warns against such a practice. The great prophet Jeremiah wrote, "Learn not the way of the heathen" (Jer. 10:2). Even Jesus warned that it was possible to worship God in vain.
In vain do they worship Me, seeking after doctrines the commandments of men. (Mk. 7:7)
Jesus went on to say, "You make the law of God of none effect through your tradition" (Mt. 15:6). The point to this is that God never instructed man to gather eggs and decorate them. As fun as this activity may be to children and parents alike, its origins are pagan and this God hates.
So I don't celebrate Easter its not a celebration of Christs resurrection but a stolen holiday from pagans by the Catholic Church which I don't see as the true church of Christianity but a church of False Prophecy.
Very well said, Justpro! Cheers to you! And a very good rebuttal to the blog! Bye now! =)
Thank you =)
"Catholic Church which I don't see as the true church of Christianity but a church of False Prophecy"
No True Scotsman fallacy...regardless of how you see it, they are as Christian as you. Christian merely defines a group of people, not individual belief and with Christianity and its 41000 sects none of you seem to agree of who is right. All of you follow the same holy book, all of you are Christian.
Even well-educated Christians to include JPII, professors of Theology or Religious History have significant doubts about the physical resurrection and ascension of Jesus. Ditto for the assumption of Mary. Added details have been previously provided.
however...there I sno evidence the details were added later....
Just because there is no evidence that you admit to, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You should know being the professional you claim to be that no-one has ever returned from the dead after 3 days and that your imaginary friend jesus is no different!
THAT is what makes Him unique..and miracles..but yeah..I am very sure you don't believe in miracles..psychologists don't deal with miracles per se...so here is the ignorance again..you assume that if I am a professional that I woukldnt believe in a person raising from dead after 3 days......
Him can't be proven to exist crazy one. I didn't bring up miracles-that is your delusional ranting again...seeing things that don't exist. You're right I don't believe in miracles due to the fact that much like your god they have no evidence to support them.
Now no rational minded person is so much of a dolt that they still believe the lies of the resurrection.
My God you are a dimwit.I did NOT say YOU brought up miracles..I will admit that I MYSELF brought it up...I just assumed you didn't believe in miracles....get some reading lessons
My the dimwit is you...you are the one who believes in a god that can't be shown to exist but yet you are the one making the claims.
You might wish to take a manners course and stop acting like a dictator...geez you're an ignorant ass!
Stop being such a complete d bag, Kermit. You are giving Christians a bad name.
Coming back from the dead isn't unique in the Bible. It mentions several cases.
coming back from the dead by the others were done by Jesus..and they were temporary..they di dnot stay alive as Jesus did....those who were brought bac kto life only died later..so it is still unique
It wasn't just Jesus's work. Even the Old Testament had people coming back from the dead.
again..use the context..they di not stay alive..they eventually died again...whereas Jesus is alive for eternity!
kermit4jc,
You win the argument as soon as you can prove that Jesus is alive today.
ill let Jesus do that...no man proved it to me..why should I expect less for you?
@ ovserver...so tell me..where is the body of Jesus..why could the authorities show the body of Jesus to quell the preaching? how do you account for the empty tomb?
In other words you can't prove Jesus isn't alive. Admitting that is the first sign that you are a little bit humble, kermit. How can a corporeal body exist I'm heaven?
I showed it in the next post..as for how can a physical body exist ni heaven..who says it cannot?
No chance of a drugged or sleepy or incompetent or conspiratorial guard/guards, right?
that does NOT account for the empty tomb! and WHY would the guards have a conspiracy to d osomething with the body? for what purpose..they had no benefit in it...plus.....Romans were very well trained and disciplined..falling asleep while on guard can pretty much lead to execution...
kermit4jc,
Jesus had no friends or supporters that might have tried to help prove his case, right?
The best-selling book "The Passover Plot" from years ago talked about the possible use of drugs known then.
ONE of his disciples knew he was going to die like this..much less be resurrected! and secondly..who would DIE for something they KNEW to be a lie??? and what of the witnesses of Jesus AFTER his death and resurrection? they saw and ate with him..they touched him....
and drugs for what.reviving Jesus?
kermit,
@Reality is referring to "added details" that have been previously posted by him regarding his statements in this post.
(get off your paranoia pony, pal...)
why the bad remark about pony tail...coulodnt you think tha tMAYBE its difficult following all the messages and posts? give me a break.....sheesh
kermit,
Who said anything about a pony tail?
It seems as if your reading skills and comprehension are deficient - this most likely carries over into your understanding and interpretations of those Bible stories and claims.
no..I misread cause my allergies..the post said get off my pony PAL....wwas looking at several posts at once...give me a break huh?
kermit,
I surely do sympathize with your affliction - it's rough - but you do have quite a penchant for bullheadedly misinterpreting things nevertheless.
The added details as previously provided (only for the new members):
Saving Christians from the Resurrection Con Game:
From that famous passage: In 1 Corinthians 15 St. Paul reasoned, "If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith."
Even now Catholic/Christian professors of theology are questioning the bodily resurrection of the simple, preacher man aka Jesus.
To wit;
From a major Catholic university's theology professor’s grad school white-board notes:
"Heaven is a Spirit state or spiritual reality of union with God in love, without earthly – earth bound distractions.
Jesus and Mary's bodies are therefore not in Heaven.
Most believe that it to mean that the personal spiritual self that survives death is in continuity with the self we were while living on earth as an embodied person.
Again, the physical Resurrection (meaning a resuscitated corpse returning to life), Ascension (of Jesus' crucified corpse), and Assumption (Mary's corpse) into heaven did not take place.
The Ascension symbolizes the end of Jesus' earthly ministry and the beginning of the Church.
Only Luke's Gospel records it. The Assumption ties Jesus' mission to Pentecost and missionary activity of Jesus' followers The Assumption has multiple layers of symbolism, some are related to Mary's special role as "Christ bearer" (theotokos). It does not seem fitting that Mary, the body of Jesus' Virgin-Mother (another biblically based symbol found in Luke 1) would be derived by worms upon her death. Mary's assumption also shows God's positive regard, not only for Christ's male body, but also for female bodies." "
"In three controversial Wednesday Audiences, Pope John Paul II pointed out that the essential characteristic of heaven, hell or purgatory is that they are states of being of a spirit (angel/demon) or human soul, rather than places, as commonly perceived and represented in human language. This language of place is, according to the Pope, inadequate to describe the realities involved, since it is tied to the temporal order in which this world and we exist. In this he is applying the philosophical categories used by the Church in her theology and saying what St. Thomas Aquinas said long before him."
http://eternal-word.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM
With respect to rising from the dead, we also have this account:
o An added note: As per R.B. Stewart in his introduction to the recent book, The Resurrection of Jesus, Crossan and Wright in Dialogue,
o
p.4
o "Reimarus (1774-1778) posits that Jesus became sidetracked by embracing a political position, sought to force God's hand and that he died alone deserted by his disciples. What began as a call for repentance ended up as a misguided attempt to usher in the earthly political kingdom of God. After Jesus' failure and death, his disciples stole his body and declared his resurrection in order to maintain their financial security and ensure themselves some standing."
o p.168. by Ted Peters:
Even so, asking historical questions is our responsibility. Did Jesus really rise from the tomb? Is it necessary to have been raised from the tomb and to appear to his disciples in order to explain the rise of early church and the transcription of the bible? Crossan answers no, Wright answers, yes. "
o So where are the bones"? As per Professor Crossan's analyses in his many books, the body of Jesus would have ended up in the mass graves of the crucified, eaten by wild dogs, covered with lime in a shallow grave, or under a pile of stones.
however..this flies in the face of eyewitness testimonies.....second....since they still preached right from the beginning..the body still could have been exhumed to quell the preaching..plus.....no evidence that jesus was put in the mass grave....
Eye witness testimony is not always reliable and you, such an educated man, should know this. Eye witness testimony told 30 years after the fact, which is the case of the stories of jesus in the bible is even less reliable.
And the names of the eye witnesses other than those from the fictional/semi-fictional NT accounts? Rigorous historical testing requires at least two attestations from different recorded reputable doc-uments.
I'm not getting involved in whether or not the bible is real. It's no secret that it is a selective collection of writings put together by rich men. Does that mean it's less valid because they chose which writings? You be the judge on that. The reason I bring that up is that these were not stupid men. They wanted adoption of this new religion, and to do that, they made small tweaks to make is easier for the people to get on board.
Jesus' birth. You think it's coincidence that we celebrate Christmas on the same day that pagans celebrated Saturna? Of course not! And it's not STEALING. We don't have an exact calendar date for the birth of Christ, so we celebrate it on that day BECAUSE it was already a major holiday. It lessens the cultural impact for those being converted.
The image of God with the flowing white robes and white beard is the exact image of Jupiter and Zeus. Again, lessens cultural trauma.
These are not thefts. For lack of a better term, they're creative and effective marketing. It's not easy getting people to abandon old beliefs in favor of new ones. By keeping many of the same traditions, it simply makes that transition easier.
". We don't have an exact calendar date for the birth of Christ, so we celebrate it on that day BECAUSE it was already a major holiday."
If you read the bible, you would see Jesus wasn't born in december....the biblical evidence is there if you care to read it.
I've never been taught he was born in December. I've been taught we remember his birth in that month, though.
Most Christians I talk to don't say he was actually born in December.
lol he wasnt even born close to that month according to the bible....
There is a reason why Christians chose that date.....and it has nothing to do with jesus and his birthday.
What is that reason?
Again, I know he wasn't born in December. Most Christian I've spoken with think he was probably born in spring time. But nobody know, and it really isn't that important.
To convert pagans who already celebrated the winter solstice during that time. The decision to celebrate Christmas on December 25 was made sometime during the fourth century by church bishops in Rome, right around the time Constantine made the religion "legal" for the first time and allowed people to openly worship.
Yea, that is what the Christians tell me, too.
It is also just a theory, according to some:
"Despite its popularity today, this theory (of converting Pagans) of Christmas’s origins has its problems. It is not found in any ancient Christian writings, for one thing. Christian authors of the time do note a connection between the solstice and Jesus’ birth: The church father Ambrose (c. 339–397), for example, described Christ as the true sun, who outshone the fallen gods of the old order. But early Christian writers never hint at any recent calendrical engineering; they clearly don’t think the date was chosen by the church. Rather they see the coincidence as a providential sign, as natural proof that God had selected Jesus over the false pagan gods."
"It’s not until the 12th century that we find the first suggestion that Jesus’ birth celebration was deliberately set at the time of pagan feasts. "
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/new-testament/how-december-25-became-christmas/
It is just a theory, but there's plenty of evidence throughout history of it being done. Again, I am not trying to go against anything here. But religions historically have adopted the traditions of what came before to aid in adoption.
Some times it is just people holding onto their customs and culture.
That is why not all Christians celebrate Christmas and Easter. Some celebrate 12 days of Christmas in January.
Actually, Pagan holidays were used by the early church in order to facilitate conversion. It is technically stealing.
Some people simply held on to some of their old traditions. Pagans who lived in houses, wore clothes and celebrated spring with eggs and bunnies became Christians who lived in houses, wore clothes and celebrated spring with eggs and bunnies.
You can't steal something they already had.
Kind of odd that the creator of the universe needed to use other myths to get people to convert to his religion, isnt it?
Craeting the universe, easy.
Getting people to beleive you are the Creator, hard.
Sorry, but that makes no sense. A real god wouldnt need to try very hard to get people to beleive.
God did not create easter or any of these holidays but its created by the Roman Catholic church which in the bible states that its frowned upon...
Burning witches at the stake seems like an appropriate way to convert to you? These people were almost forced to turn coat for fear of what would happen.
You mean Saturnalia? Blame the theft or merging of religions on Constantine.... Its no secret that he merged the pagans and Christians together to form one religion...A divided house cant stand and the emperor knew that so he blended everything. Pagans worshipped the Sun God and Christians the Son of God. Hence the reason why there are sun rise services on Easter. Only pagans worshiped the conquering Sun and with the blending of teachings there is no surprise sun rise services are in the church today..Easter is from the pagan Goddess Ishtar and Tammuz is the pagan son of the Sun god who died a violent death and was resurrected 3 days later. .His birthday was December 25th by the way. . Does any of this sound familiar? Saturnalia and Mithros are all associated with December 25th as well... Jesus never said to remember his birth only his death. The bibles association with birth all revolves around death.. It also says the day of ones death is better than the day of ones birth.. Easter is a pagan as Christmas and the history is there to prove it.. Christianity as a whole is watered down with so many pagan teachings its very hard for Christendom to even understand it because of its traditions.. In the end it matters whether you worship in a lie or in truth... John 4:24
lol..hence why there are sunrise services....that's quite a joke..I go to sunrise services....and it is celebrated at sunrise cause that was when the empty tomb was discovered..on the morning of the third day....
Stop being such an intolerant Christian, Kermit. You and Christianitu do NOT own sunrise services, bigot.
did I say I do? maybe you should let go of your anger and reread my posts.....when I MYSELF go t osunrise services...its as I said....sheesh..did I say it was for everyone else?
You implied it: "lol..hence why there are sunrise services….that’s quite a joke.."
Do you read how your posts look before you hit "send"? You're an abrasive poster.
♰♰♰ Jesus Christ Is Lord ♰♰♰
Well, sure those similarities are unsettling; however, all the stories share the same doubt and scrutiny, and the "Truth" always stands out.
In Christianity, the Lord Jesus Christ is the "focus," regardless of all the dogmas, traditions and knock offs—Mithraism, BTW, appeared from 1 to 4 AD/CE, what are the odds?!—, nothing else matters. On a dart board, there is only one "bull's eye," and everything around it is out of focus.
Keep your eyes on the prize.
Hebrews 12:2
"2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God." (NASB)
They don't get it, Vic. Those old mythologies died off centuries ago, yet we're still debating about the living God today. The disbelievers, nonbelievers and maligners just can't seem to stop talking about Him! LoL! =D
The hindu religion is older than the entire judeo-christian tradition. By your logic, the hindu pantheon is real.
We're not talking about him, we're talking about YOU. We're talking about the crazy people who believe in fairies.
"They dont beleive in our fairies, but they keep talking about how stupid and destructive our beleif in fairies are, so they must really beleive in fairies deep down. They keep talking about fairies!" LOL
The just don't get it!! Their mythology will die off soon too and the world will know peace. There is no evidence for a living god or there would be no reason to have these discussions. Silly Christians think they're so special while they only make up 2.3 billion of the worlds population and have their numbers dwindling quicker than an addict goes through a bottle oxy's. These believers and their silly imaginary friends, poor poor gullible brainwashed children.
wishful thinking on your part.....there is always an ebb and flow...sometimes numbers are low..sometimes high.....and as I said..people like you been saying stuff like that for over 2000 years now......
kermi: The stats don't lie and if you were truly a psychologist, instead of lying and saying you are, you'd comprehend that. In fact, you probably would not say that the voice you hear is your god-any good psychologist would know that if someone is hearing voices they are usually delusional.
VOICES> lol..I didn't say voices..and ANY good psychologist would NOT make a misdiagniosis si0oly based no hearing voices..sorry..but apparently you are too ignorant to know anything about psychology..I wouldn't go to you if my life depended on it....it takes more than one symptom to diagnose someone as having some sort of problem...you however want to say someone has a problem based on one thing...that's NOT how a psychologist works..so for YOU to say Im lying baou tbeing a psychologist has no merit now...you don't know what a Psychologist is...judging from your posts
The only ignorance here kermi is your blatant lies and misleading claims. You're probably not a psychologist, as was stated earlier in a post where your name came up, taking a college course does not make you one!!
if you wanna keep saying false stuipid carp about me like that we can end this now..don't ever address me again ok?> you wanna believe im not a psychologt..go right ahead..i don't need YOUR approval..I kn9ow what I am..you wanna make up silly stuff about someone you don't know....be my guest...just don't address me until you grow up
kermi: In case you completely miss it, I can address whoever I wish on this public blog. Suck it up wee-one, you are a blatant liar and delusional. Your spelling errors prove you're a very angry man and you're telling me to grow up-I am not the one with imaginary friends, that would be you (and any good psychologist knows that imaginary friends are had by children, brainwashed fools or schizophrenics-you're one the three).
Try not sounding like loon and you might be treated better!
so you NEVER assumed I may be a bad typist instead of a poor speller....man..so narrowminded of you...go ahead..address me then..i will no longer address any of yours untuil yo ugrow up and stop playing your childish playground game.....you seem to think badly of aeveryone...you seem to have a one track mind and not think about others (as I pointed out that you assumed Im a bad speller when thetr ARE other possibilities that I can be bad a typing for example)....grow up..use critical thinking skills
I'm not the one who needs to grow up kermi...you keep lying and claiming your god is real-seems it is you who needs to take the advice and stop feeling so persecuted. Critical thinking skills are not your strong suit...if you are who you say you are, I feel bad for those innocent children-no child should be subjected to you.
ok....knock off the carp about me and children you dolt....as for now I will not address your posts anymore...grow up....good day to you
Please stay away from children until you have taken a class in science and manners...you are clearly a danger to them!
did someone just f a r t? gonna open the window to let out the bad air
Maybe FAUX news would be more your speed kermi-you know slow and crazy. You've been nothing but arrogant and obnoxious, yet you expect people to treat you differently than you treat them. Every time you are asked for evidence supporting your claims of a god, you say they are personal and when told personal evidence doesn't count, you scream and get angry.
As Greg has said, you give Christians a bad name. You know if hell exists it is the place you'd be going, not me-not any of the non-believers here...simply people like you who fail to follow the golden rule!
someone hand me some febreeze..sure stinks in here
kermi: Now who needs to grow up? Do they sell febreeze that the trailer parks store? Your ignorance and lack of manners is showing....once again please stay away from all living things other than a Doctor who is REAL (unlike you).
whatsa matter..getting ticked off now?
kermi: Not ticked off, I have a life and sorry but you're not the center of it. I don't get ticked off at you, I find you humorous.
So outside of personal evidence, could you please provide evidence that you're right and I'm wrong in regards to your gods existence?
What you said! Atheism is growing – theism is shrinking – thanks to the advent of the Internet. I like to refer to the Internet as, "my gigantic brain," but in fact, it's *everyone's* "gigantic brain," and because we now all have so much smarts, we're beginning to learn and realize that all religions are hokum. This is indeed an age of enlightenment.
Atheism has grown about .8% in the last 5 years. From 1.6% of Americans, to 2.4%.
Oh but America is not the world!
Yea, I don't have world data.
Strangely in America, 14% of those who call themselves atheists also say they believe in God or a universal spirit.
World wide, Christianity is growing faster than atheism.
Not that it really matters, but it puts a damper on obidonkenobi's claim.
You're a troll.
No honeybooboo, trolling is what you're doing. Picking certain comments and attempting to destroy them.
Seems you're not acting very Christian...calling people names and acting like a child...I'm sure if hell exists, it is you will be there and not any of us good non-believers.
Vic, regarding this Jesus stuff that you keep spamming us with, it is just a fairy tale. How is it again that your omnipotent being couldn't do his saving bit without the whole silly Jesus hoopla? And how was Jesus' death a "sacrifice", when an omnipotent being could just pop up a replacement son any time with less than a snap of his fingers? Pretty pathetic "god" that you've made for yourself there. The foundation of your whole religion is nonsense.
Ask the questions. Break the chains. Join the movement.
Be free of Christianity and other superstitions.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
And if the Romans would have adopted Mithraism as their national religion, you would be a Mithraist. Id still be an atheist.
And more misinformation...Dionysius was never ressrected..sure..as humans (plural) but that is nOT ressurection as in case of jesus..he returned as Himself..not somone else..that is true ressurection.......and that is unique...any others with similarities pretty much came after Jesus (Horus was before Jesus, yes..but stories of his death and ressurection came after Jesus) people need to look further into these claims
Copying the other stories word for word would kind of give it away wouldn't it?
There is no copying word for word in the Bible from other myths
Of course not word for word, that would be ridiculous, but nonetheless true that the stories are just retelling of the same myths.
There are not word for word copies of the bible. Differnt words in translation, even different translations to english, so do you have a point? No one said word for word. Most of what jesus allegedly said, was said by the Buddha 400 years prior, but no one says it is word for word...the MEANING and THEMES are what is copied, not the entirety of the text.
because they are similar doesn't mean it was copies....pretty bad at making correlations...Jesus was unique...no oother god was even mentioned to have ever died and resurrected as Jesus was...as I said..many of those that are similar to Jesus death and ressurection were written after Jesus time
That is what I said. I wouldn't expect it to be a direct copy. But it sure seems like they incorporated many of the same ideas and concepts while changing the story in places.
kermit
You keep telling yourself that.
King Kong has been told again and again...same characters, same thems different telling. That's what happens with STORIES. They get embellished differently with different tellers.
Still nothing showing any validity to the myths.
however..no evidence of embellishing in the Gospels....only critics who wish to discredit the Bible any way they can..including with presuppositions
I consider all of the parts about Jesus walking on water, healing people, and coming back from the dead to all be embellishments.
well..yuo have to show it...provide evidence
kermit,
Paul of Tarsus lived and wrote much closer to the time that Jesus allegedly did. There was not a peep from Paul about any of those purported miracles. Don't say Paul was too busy to mention them - he would have milked them to the hilt!
not so...he had no reason to..in FACT he was writing to CHRISTIANS..not non bel8ievers...ALL his letters were to those who ALREADY believed...so why milk it...what use would it be? He wrotre to Chruches about the ISSUES they had...otherwise..he TAUGHT in person about Jesus..he went on several missionary trips and started churches and witnessed to others....Paul already knew thaty the others were writing the Gospels..in fact in one of the Epistles to Timothy..Paul quotes form Luke...thus showoing the Gospels were already in existence by the time Paul wrote to Timothy....
I don't need to provide evidence, I will just wait for someone to prove that they aren't. Also, why do I need to provide evidence but believers don't need to provide evidence that the miracles actually happened? Keep in mind that the bible is the claim, and so the evidence of the miracles would need to come from another source.
uh..yuo do know that the Bible did not come all at once.....remember...66 books.....at different times...thus different sources...plus...I see miracles all the time myself.....so why disbelieve the ones in the Bible?
I don't believe in miracles, or ghosts, or bigfoot for that matter. I do believe that we are not the only lifeforms in the universe, but I don't think any have visited Earth to stick probes up peoples' butts despite the fact that people claim to have witnessed such.
kermit,
Paul waxed rhapsodic about all sorts of supernatural things about himself and Jesus in his letters - to give credence and a basis for his preachings. If they were meant only for confirmed believers, why emphasize that stuff so much? If he would have had miracles to add to his repertoire, he would have used them.
read Pauls letters! use the context..some of that WAS an issue..for Gnosticism was creeping in the churches.....Paul was only confirming what has already been taught.....again..POaul wrote the letters to address ISSUES within the church....
The fact that early Christians had to invent stories about the devil committing "plagiarism in advance" to try and explain away the similarities between Jesus and other gods worshiped at the time tells me there has to be at least some truth to the claims.
Phil Coulson died for a week and was brought back to life. This was witnessed by millions of people.
And I, for one, am grateful.
We can thank the T.A.H.I.T.I Project
It's a magical place.
This comes in handy:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/exploringourmatrix/2012/06/better-atheist-fact-checking.html
Quick Kermi, tell us exactly how sure you are you have the right god?? (and try not to use your usual delusional twist of "I have personal evidence")
Oh and how's that lawsuit against me working out for you??? Have you managed to find out who I am, where I live and a lawyer looking to milk you for your welfare check?
The Passover Plot, by Hugh Schoenfeld (1965) makes the case that Yehoshuah ben Yosef (which would have been Jesus' name during his own lifetime, if he ever really lived) arranged to have his crucifixion take place on the eve of the Sabbath, so that his still-living body would quickly be taken down from the cross and revived by close friends and/or family members. Crucifixion was the prescribed Roman punishment for rebellion against Rome. The Romans didn't care in the least about religious disputes and generally didn't punish people who only complained about Roman rule.
And Jesus said unto his 12 apostles as he was being nailed to the cross..............'don't touch my fu.cki.ng Easter eggs, I'll be back on Monday!'
His booze also...c'mon, we all know he got fed up with the boys fawning over him that he got drunk and crawled in to a cave for three days to cure the hangover.
And atheists wonder why their ideology is relegated to the ranks of buffoonery by the masses.
Jesus dies and goes up to Heaven. The first thing he does is look for his father, as he has never met the man before and is curious as to what he looks like, and whether or not Jesus looks like his mother or father, etc. He looks high and low but cannot find him.
He asks St. Peter "Where is my father?" But St. Peter says he doesn't know.
He asks the archangel Gabriel "Where is my father?" But Gabriel doesn't know.
He asks John the Baptist "Where is my father?" But John does not know. So he wanders Heaven, impatiently searching.
Suddenly he sees out of the mist an old man coming toward him. The man is very old, with white hair, stooped over a little. "Stop!" Jesus yells. "Who are you?"
"Oh, please help me, I am an old man in search of my son." Jesus is very curious. Could this be his father? "Tell me of your son, old man."
"Oh, you would know him if you saw him. Holes in his hand where the nails used to be"
"Father!!!!!" Screams Jesus.
"Pinocchio!!!!!!!" yells the old man.
Did they steal? more like who did they NOT steal ideas from to make up most of the stories.
When did I realize I was God?
Well, I was praying and I suddenly realized that I was talking to myself ...
Words and thoughts from a very insightful and compassionate man... A grand master of the golden age
In 1952, atheist Sci-Fi author Robert Heinlein made the following speech during a radio interview with Edward R. Murrow:
"I am not going to talk about religious beliefs, but about matters so obvious that it has gone out of style to mention them."
"I believe in my neighbors."
"I know their faults and I know that their virtues far outweigh their faults. Take Father Michael down our road a piece –I'm not of his creed, but I know the goodness and charity and loving kindness that shine in his daily actions. I believe in Father Mike; if I'm in trouble, I'll go to him. My next-door neighbor is a veterinary doctor. Doc will get out of bed after a hard day to help a stray cat. No fee – no prospect of a fee. I believe in Doc."
"I believe in my townspeople. You can knock on any door in our town say, 'I'm hungry,' and you will be fed. Our town is no exception; I've found the same ready charity everywhere. For the one who says, 'To heck with you – I got mine,' there are a hundred, a thousand, who will say, 'Sure, pal, sit down.'
I believe in my fellow citizens. Our headlines are splashed with crime, yet for every criminal there are 10,000 honest decent kindly men. If it were not so, no child would live to grow up, business could not go on from day to day. Decency is not news; it is buried in the obituaries –but it is a force stronger than crime."
"I believe in the patient gallantry of nurses...in the tedious sacrifices of teachers. I believe in the unseen and unending fight against desperate odds that goes on quietly in almost every home in the land."
"I believe in the honest craft of workmen. Take a look around you. There never were enough bosses to check up on all that work. From Independence Hall to the Grand Coulee Dam, these things were built level and square by craftsmen who were honest in their bones."
"I believe that almost all politicians are honest. For every bribed alderman there are hundreds of politicians, low paid or not paid at all, doing their level best without thanks or glory to make our system work. If this were not true, we would never have gotten past the thirteen colonies."
"I believe in Rodger Young. You and I are free today because of endless unnamed heroes from Valley Forge to the Yalu River."
"And finally, I believe in my whole race. Yellow, white, black, red, brown –in the honesty, courage, intelligence, durability....and goodness.....of the overwhelming majority of my brothers and sisters everywhere on this planet. I am proud to be a human being. I believe that we have come this far by the skin of our teeth, that we always make it just by the skin of our teeth –but that we will always make it....survive....endure. I believe that this hairless embryo with the aching, oversize brain case and the opposable thumb, this animal barely up from the apes, will endure –will endure longer than his home planet, will spread out to the other planets, to the stars, and beyond, carrying with him his honesty, his insatiable curiosity, his unlimited courage –and his noble essential decency."
"This I believe with all my heart."
LET, great post. 2 thumbs up, for that material and Robert Heinlein generally. Some words to live by there.
@TruthPrevails1 – And why exactly does it fail? Simply because some folks don't believe it?
learn to "reply" to a post.
Noted.
I think the "fail" is between you and the reply button.
Nice.
I was interested in the context of your question, but could not find the original source. So, fail. At least you could have acknowledged that you posted in the wrong place.
@tallulah131 – I did acknowledge it to Dyslexic doG post. My apologies for not acknowledging yours as well.
My bad. I didn't read that response, only the one to me. I apologize.
Atheists are smiling.
For all you primitive slave minds that still believe, we will wait for you to die out. Your children have all either stopped believing or will soon stop believing as they have unlimited open access to real factual information outside your cult bubble that once bewitched people before the information age arrived and rescued us.
A couple more generations and the christian sky fairy will be in a category with Thor and Zeus as a quaint primitive supersti.tion.
then, without the cancer of religion, the human race has a chance.
"For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened." Romans 1:21
"Hearing voices no one else can hear isn’t a good sign, even in the wizarding world."
-Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets
LET's Religiosity Law #3 – When a Christian reaches for their book to reference a quote... you know they are about to lie their ass off...
I'm certainly not going to use you as any kind of a reference.
Ah, now my feelings are hurt...lol. Enjoy the rest of your sham holiday...
So basically, you have this book that tells you what to believe, then calls you a fool when you actually question it.
Did you ever consider that the real fool is the person who takes at face value a contradictory book of ancient myths that claims to be the word of god?
It was the Walking Dead that day on Easter. Not only did Jesus rise, so did everyone else.
Matthew 27:52-53
"and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."
Yep, that one is a doozy. Even the other gospel storytellers didn't try to pull that lulu.
Yes, those were to be the first of the "little flock" Jesus mentions in Luke 12:32 - "Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom." The "little flock" refers to the 144,000 who follow the Lamb wherever he goes and "no lie was found in their mouths." Rev. 7:3-5
And here you have it folks - yet another interpretation of the bible. No wonder there's over 30,000 (and counting) different denominations of christianity. Everybody has their own interpretation of the "inerrant word of god".
Oh, Tallulah, that's not my interpretation. Go read the scriptures for yourself. What would YOU say they mean, rather then sitting there as an arm-chair critic? Add something more to this discussion other than tossing out all of your one-liners. You're really starting to be a bore!
You put two different verses from two different books written by two different men together. It may be in the bible, but the interpretation is yours (or perhaps you 'borrowed' it from some other would-be biblical scholar). 30,000 denominations and counting, all with their own interpretation. You guys can't even agree on which one is correct. Your god is a very poor communicator.
How can you hold that as gospel if it hasn't happened yet?
What hasn't happened yet? Please be more specific in your questions.
Sigh. Revelation.
Thank you, Akira. Some things that are prophesied in Revelation, as well as in the Jewish scriptures and the four Gospels (Good News), is occurring now. I would suggest that you get into a Christian study group where these kinds of things are discussed. There's too much to cover that can't be readily discussed here in an online forum. I have a sense that you have an inquiring mind about this topic and I would encourage you to join a Christian group and have all of your questions addressed there, face to face, with others.
" I have a sense that you have an inquiring mind about this topic and I would encourage you to join a Christian group "
Oh my, that's funny.
Akira: We can blog your experience and call it "The Year Akira Lost His Mind".
Seems honeykira needs better comprehension skills. People easily convert from belief to disbelief, however the opposite is seldom seen.
She shouldn't have to sell her god if it is real!!
I don't know who Candida Moss is - she's just another blogger rehashing the old mythologies that died off and were replaced by the belief in the one true God of the Isrealites. But I do know that her two books about the subject will never be as widely read, distributed, discussed and considered as those contained in the Jewish and Christian scriptures.
And it looks to me that the prophet Zechariah, about 500 years before the birth of Jesus Christ, got it absolutely right when he prophesied: "Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'In those days ten men from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, "Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you." ' "
That IS a historical fact, along with many other prophesies that came true and many others that are yet to come true. If you really want to understand what is going on around you in your own life or to understand today's world events, I would encourage all to read the Bible. You will find the answers are contained there. Let's stop rehashing all these old debates because whether you believe in him or not, boy, we sure do have a lot to say about him still, don't we, after all these millennia. Go ahead. Read the Good Book!
LOLOLOLOL. Comedy gold!
Zechariah is a book in the old testament. A book written by Jews. And he states that some day in the future some people will worship a jew.
Ground breaking stuff. LOL.
LoL! Well now! I would say that both you and Dyslexic doG are both, well, dyslexic! Hahaha! =D
How does that make me dyslexic?
Your gullibility is incredible.
Want to beleive im a prophet? Here you go –
"Within the next 1000 years, people from the southern hemisphere will worship someone from their own race"
There, now just wait 1000 years and notice how some idiots in Portugal started to worshio someone else from Portugal.
Oh! Did I touch a nerve of yours? Oops! Sorry! My bad. =)
Poor thing. You can't even recognize that they're laughing at your rather juvenile and silly post. You must be very young.
Tallulah, they're not laughing at me. They're incensed! They have such a rage on against God that they have to take it out on me. You, too, but that's okay. It's an easy yoke for me to bear and the burden is light. Go ahead. Spew off some more at me. I'm listening. =)
You not knowing what dyslexic is, proves that I am angry and secretly beleive in god? LOL. Please keep posting, you are creating more atheists than I could ever dream of. Every time you post nonsense, people see what nonsense your myth is, so go ahead, whatever floats your boat!
Incensed?
Wow.
Me: How does that make me dyslexic?
Honeykira: (offers no response to the question). See, I must be right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LOL
Ok, yeahright, I'm sorry, I apologize for calling you dyslexic. I didn't mean to hit a nerve with you. My bad. =/
' They have such a rage on against God that they have to take it out on me.'
I think you will find they dont believe in god. Its a bit difficult to be angry at something you dont think exists. It would be like getting angry at imaginary fairies.
Then they should stop commenting on this imaginary subject. I already know they don't believe in God. But why should they denounce my faith just because they don't believe? I don't ridicule them. What's their problem?
I'm suspecting that either you are a troll, or a sixteen-year-old with a very inflated sense of self-importance. No one in incensed; your inane comments inspire laughter rather than anger.
I'm with you on that one. I have never understood why I am supposed to be impressed that Jewish folks living in exile somewhere predicted that one day all the Jews would return to their homeland. To me this seems like exactly what you would expect them to write.
But, Joey, the account doesn't stop there. There's more, lots more, and it's all contained in the Bible. Go read it and be impressed! =)
Jesus had many disciples (students), Joey, and from those, he chose 12 who would then go on to become his apostles (messengers).
I spent over 20 years reading it, and I was never all that impressed. Jesus had some good things to say, but that is about it. I certainly don't buy that he was the son of god or anything like that.
And the prophecy you quoted says something about 10 men, which would make it wrong.
For me Christianity fails because it hinges on original sin. If there is no original sin then there is no need for the sacrifice of Jesus. Since Adam and Eve never existed, there was no original sin, and, for me at least, that is where Christianity starts to fall apart.
The quote, Joey, was from Zechariah in which he prophesied that 10 men from different nations would hang on to the robes of a Jew, saying "Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you." This is in reference to gentiles accepting the Jewish God as being true. Jesus opened the gateway for that so that a gentile, like myself, could also have the opportunity to have a relationship with Him. Look, it's like this, Joey. No one's forcing you to accept Him. You either want to or you don't . If you don't, why worry yourself about it? Believe anything else that you'd like to believe. I certainly wouldn't take that against you. As for myself, I love God and I love Jesus and, to me, that's all that matters. I have to go now (got to make dinner now). It was nice chatting you, Joey. God bless! =)
I'm not the least bit worried about accepting Jesus. I am worried about Christians who think everyone else should accept Jesus because they are annoying.
Also since there are now like 2 some odd billion Christians the number 10 seems to still be wrong.
Joey, there wasn't always two billion believers. The point is, is that gentiles would accept the Jewish God as being true. The fact that there are that many today proves Zechariah's prophecy at a time when only the Jewish people believed in God while every other group of people believed in false deities. Bye now!
besides, I thought Jesus had 12 disciples, which would make the prophecy wrong.
Militant atheists(which are most internet atheists) are a poisonous disease that won't die. Atheism itself is irrational belief and pure fantasy of the mind.
Isn't it funny that militant trolls who can't support their generalizations come out here nearly the same time every day. And obviously, they can't seem to finish whatever it is they thought they started... Do they even know they are their own worst enemy? Now that's stupidity in full bloom for ya.......
Militant? LOL. Wrong. Atheist trolls like Dog and others spew the same nonsense over the span of years. Their atheism is so pathetic, it's the only thing they can do! LOL
you know you love me.
I don't have time to adequately address your hypocrisy, thefinisher, but will merely point out that accusing atheists of having fantasies means you don't know what atheism is, and you probably don't understand your own religion either.
I am not an atheist, but I regularly witness more hatred spewed by pseudo-Christians like you than any atheist.
It's okay little one...we understand that homeschooling doesn't mean you have access to a dictionary, maybe ask jeebus to send you one for Zombie Day on Sunday...run along now and pray to him, otherwise you might not get your wish in on time!
LOLOL
lol – oh now you have Sal worried. You might even say you've hit His Panic button!
*snerk*
I can't remember. What other name did you troll under before you started using "thefinisher". I've not been on as much as I used to be, because frankly guys like you are boring and can't even field a real argument. Just insults and lies.
Like most you atheists here! You are here for emotional reasons, not because of your fantasies you have about religion. Atheism is in your mind and belongs only there. Your atheism is a disease.
Sheesh. Ask a simple question and all you get is insults. All the interesting christians - the ones willing to think and willing to argue rationally for their faith - are no longer on this blog. All that's left are boring individuals such as yourself. Your life must be truly empty. I pity you.
Just curious, do you beleive all people who dont beleive in christianity (the majority of people on Earth) have a disease? It doesnt make sense why you would only think atheists have this disease that makes them not beleive in your nonsense. Jews dont beleive in your nonsense either. Neither do Muslims. Neither do Hindus. Neither do Buddhists. Neither fo Pagans. Do they all have this disease too?
Are you planning to eradicate the atheistic disease? If you are, then you're convincing atheists that Christians truly do not believe in separation of church and state, or freedom of religion as it applies to atheists; i.e., the freedom not to believe). If you have no such plans, then the logical conclusion is that the atheistic disease will continue to run rampant until it kills Christianity (one can only hope!).
disease??? Kind of like the religious psychosis you suffer from? Did Mommy not love you enough???
Probably Salero, His Panic. If not, they may as well be the same for lack of substance, inability to support what little argument they may think they have (in the rare occasions where there may be some degree of rationality).
Thanks. There was someone else, but I've forgotten the name. Too many trolls, not enough internet.
You might think of "lol??", but that troll seemed to not write very far before mentioning "socie" or the "A&As".
Yeah, that may have been the one I was thinking of.
Whatever happened to topher?
Oh he just commented on the newer article as "noahsdadtopher"
Finisher used to post this same type of thing under "L", and "Atheism is a religion".
Ishtar? She was BABYLONIAN! Try Eostre as the pagan source of Easter. You should be very ashamed to openly express your ignorance on this blog. You're a professor at Notre Dame, yet cannot even accomplish simple research skills? Shameful.
A theology professor.. which is the same thing as saying a professor of nothing important
Jesus was just David Koresh 2000 years earlier. A sociopathic conman with a good story and lots of charisma. All this foolishness, without a shred of proof, has sprung up from there.
utter, mind numbing nonsense.
lets face it christanity started as a personality cult.
@igaftr – Perhaps you are the one who should think before you post. My comment was very specific to what was a waste of time. Never did I say anything about all science, especially medical science, as being a waste of time. But an endless quest to find the origin of everything is a waste of time. We're here. It simply does not matter how we got here or who was right.
Nice back pedal there geeker. Still, no god did it, nor needed.
There are a lot of people who believe in God who don't just say 'god did it'. They actually study and master a scientific discipline and contribute to scientific and technological advances.
They probably look at a guy like you and think your 'god didn't do it' statement is philosophy. Not science.
But it is a philosophy given that no-one can prove either way...you see reason to believe, I don't but yet neither can be 100% certain.
You can't be 100% certain of anything.
Yea, that is why we call it a mystery.
@snuffleupagus – Back pedal on what exactly? I truly do not believe science will ever be able to say with 100% certainty they know where everything came from. There will always be the question of 'what happened before...'.
and the answer to that question should be "We don't know" since nobody does know. Religious people, however, claim to have the answer, namely, god happened before. So if someone says that god caused the Big Bang then it is perfectly reasonable to ask for proof.
An intellectually honest person can never look at a question and answer it with "god did it". If you don't look for answers, you will never find them.
There are plenty of intellectually honest people that believe in God.
And any idiot can be an atheist.
"There are plenty of intellectually honest people that believe in God."
Those that fit in that category are usually one of the following:
a. Deistic/Pantheistic
b. Not really interested in religion, so don't really think about it.
c. Interested in religion, but not all that bright or educated.
I don't honestly see how an intelligent, educated person who takes the time to investigate multiple religions, religious history (including religions almost all now deem "mythology"), philosophy, logic, and the scientific method could actually believe in any of the major organized religions without lying to themselves.
@joey3467 – And as long as we can be honest and say 'we don't know' then it also leaves room for all things we cannot prove to not be true. That includes a God. Atheists seem to 'know' a God does not exist somehow.
I belong to an organized religion that fully embraces science. There are people who believe in God that are brighter and more educated than you and they are not Deistic/Pantheistic. And they do think about religion.
They just don't come to the same conclusion as you. And some, like you, think anyone who doesn't think like them are inferior to themselves. We call that arrogance.
I don't know that no gods exist. I only know that no evidence that supports the existence of gods exists. And considering the history of humanity and their gods, it becomes apparent that gods are used as space fillers for the unknown. The more we know, the fewer gods we have.
To paraphrase a Nobel Prize winning scientist: Our knowledge of God is made larger with every scientific discovery we make about the world.
You call it arrogance. I say this sums up my feelings nicely:
"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart."
H. L. Mencken
That applies to your theories, too.
Perhaps your "Nobel Prize winning scientist" would care to put forward his/her evidence for the existence of god. If he/she has any, they haven't shown it.
He has his evidence for God. I don't know what it is because I've never met him, but his scientist peers certainly didn't find him intellectually dishonest.
The Big Bang Theory was fathered by a Catholic priest.
"Should a priest reject relativity because it contains no authoritative exposition on the doctrine of the Trinity? Once you realize that the Bible does not purport to be a textbook of science, the old controversy between religion and science vanishes . . . The doctrine of the Trinity is much more abstruse than anything in relativity or quantum mechanics; but, being necessary for salvation, the doctrine is stated in the Bible. If the theory of relativity had also been necessary for salvation, it would have been revealed to Saint Paul or to Moses . . . As a matter of fact neither Saint Paul nor Moses had the slightest idea of relativity." George Lemaître
I can believe him when he talks about the Big Bang because he has evidence that I can verify for myself, he had the same type of evidence for god then I could believe that as well.
If I didn't have evidence of God, I wouldn't believe either.
I think there are plenty of reasons to dismiss most gods, the only ones I'm willing to consider are the one's who created the universe and walked away. However, I place the odds of a personal god like the one in the bible to be so low as to not even be worth consideration.
Sure. I've met people that believe that, too.
I find the odds of a personal God like the one in the Bible to be so high that it is worth considering.
Jesus died for your sins!
Not mine!