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May 1st, 2014
09:15 AM ET
Why Christians should support the death penaltyOpinion by R. Albert Mohler Jr., Special to CNN (CNN) - The death penalty has been part of human society for millennia, understood to be the ultimate punishment for the most serious crimes. But, should Christians support the death penalty now, especially in light of the controversial execution Tuesday in Oklahoma? This is not an easy yes or no question. On the one hand, the Bible clearly calls for capital punishment in the case of intentional murder. In Genesis 9:6, God told Noah that the penalty for intentional murder should be death: “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image.” The death penalty was explicitly grounded in the fact that God made every individual human being in his own image, and thus an act of intentional murder is an assault upon human dignity and the very image of God. In the simplest form, the Bible condemns murder and calls for the death of the murderer. The one who intentionally takes life by murder forfeits the right to his own life. In the New Testament, the Apostle Paul instructs Christians that the government “does not bear the sword in vain.” Indeed, in this case the magistrate “is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the evildoer.” [Romans 13:4] On the other hand, the Bible raises a very high requirement for evidence in a case of capital murder. The act of murder must be confirmed and corroborated by the eyewitness testimony of accusers, and the society is to take every reasonable precaution to ensure that no one is punished unjustly. While the death penalty is allowed and even mandated in some cases, the Bible also reveals that not all who are guilty of murder and complicity in murder are executed. Just remember the biblical accounts concerning Moses, David and Saul, later known as Paul. Christian thinking about the death penalty must begin with the fact that the Bible envisions a society in which capital punishment for murder is sometimes necessary, but should be exceedingly rare. The Bible also affirms that the death penalty, rightly and justly applied, will have a powerful deterrent effect. In a world of violence, the death penalty is understood as a necessary firewall against the spread of further deadly violence. Seen in this light, the problem we face today is not with the death penalty, but with society at large. American society is quickly conforming to a secular worldview, and the clear sense of right and wrong that was Christianity’s gift to Western civilization is being replaced with a much more ambiguous morality. We have lost the cultural ability to declare murder – even mass murder – to be deserving of the death penalty. Oklahoma's botched lethal injection marks new front in battle over executions We have also robbed the death penalty of its deterrent power by allowing death penalty cases to languish for years in the legal system, often based on irrational and irrelevant appeals. While most Americans claim to believe that the death penalty should be supported, there is a wide disparity in how Americans of different states and regions think about the issue. Furthermore, Christians should be outraged at the economic and racial injustice in how the death penalty is applied. While the law itself is not prejudiced, the application of the death penalty often is. Opinion: End secrecy in lethal injections There is very little chance that a wealthy white murderer will ever be executed. There is a far greater likelihood that a poor African-American murderer will face execution. Why? Because the rich can afford massively expensive legal defense teams that can exhaust the ability of the prosecution to get a death penalty sentence. This is an outrage, and no Christian can support such a disparity. As the Bible warns, the rich must not be able to buy justice on their own terms. There is also the larger cultural context. We must recognize that our cultural loss of confidence in human dignity and the secularizing of human identity has made murder a less heinous crime in the minds of many Americans. Most would not admit this lower moral evaluation of murder, but our legal system is evidence that this is certainly true. We also face a frontal assault upon the death penalty that is driven by legal activists and others determined to bring legal execution to an end in America. Controversy over an execution this week in Oklahoma will bring even more attention to this cause, but most Americans will be completely unaware that this tragedy was caused by the inability of prison authorities to gain access to drugs for lethal injection that would have prevented those complications. Opponents of the death penalty have, by their legal and political action, accomplished what might seem at first to be impossible – they now demand action to correct a situation that they largely created. Their intention is to make the death penalty so horrifying in the public mind that support for executions would disappear. They have attacked every form of execution as “cruel and unusual punishment,” even though the Constitution itself authorizes the death penalty. It is a testament to moral insanity that they have successfully diverted attention from a murderer’s heinous crimes and instead put the death penalty on trial. Should Christians support the death penalty today? I believe that Christians should hope, pray and strive for a society in which the death penalty, rightly and rarely applied, would make moral sense. This would be a society in which there is every protection for the rights of the accused, and every assurance that the social status of the murderer will not determine the sentence for the crime. Christians should work to ensure that there can be no reasonable doubt that the accused is indeed guilty of the crime. We must pray for a society in which the motive behind capital punishment is justice, and not merely revenge. We must work for a society that will honor every single human being at every point of development and of every race and ethnicity as made in God’s image. We must hope for a society that will support and demand the execution of justice in order to protect the very existence of that society. We must pray for a society that rightly tempers justice with mercy. Should Christians support the death penalty today? I believe that we must, but with the considerations detailed above. At the same time, given the secularization of our culture and the moral confusion that this has brought, this issue is not so clear-cut as some might think. I do believe that the death penalty, though supported by the majority of Americans, may not long survive in this cultural context. Death penalty in the United States gradually declining It is one thing to support the death penalty. It is another thing altogether to explain it, fix it, administer it and sustain it with justice. We are about to find out if Americans have the determination to meet that challenge. Christians should take leadership to help our fellow citizens understand what is at stake. God affirmed the death penalty for murder as he made his affirmation of human dignity clear to Noah. Our job is to make it clear to our neighbors. R. Albert Mohler Jr. is president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. The views expressed in this column belong to Mohler.
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#Atheist Richard Dawkins doesn't understand that faith is rational and evidence based. When he is given an example, he gets owned! A must watch! http://youtu.be/4NzFr4lM-lc
What evidence do you have for a god?
Well lets see... I am alive and my brain is working to be typing in this blog... When I look up in the sky I see his marvelous work with the complexity of the universe... Scientists all over agree upon the Laws of Physics that God created to govern everything around us... Ummm lets see... My DNA could only have been written by a creator of mankind as like this laptop i am typing on was created by a programmer with intelligence for writing code. So much around me is proof that God exists... I mean it is noted before on how Some key Atheist scientists change and become believers through their scientific discoveries and research I mean so much marvels out their to be hold... Proves too me there is a God...
Your DNA should contain Adam's. Does it?
My DNA is unique just like everyone elses... If it were not than we simply cannot use DNA to prove who committed the crime like we can today... I am sure I have some similar properties in my DNA like Adam because me and Adam were created by the same God.
Do you think God created you?
None of that is evidence of a god, let alone the christian god.
another evidence fail from the deluded.
justp
Clearly you do not comprehend cause/effect relationships.
you think that existance is evidence of a "god". That is ridiculous. By the same logic, I can say there are giant invisible dragons making the wind. the wind exists, which proves the dragons exist. Pure non-logic. You are not, and existance is not evidence of any "creator". To accept existance as if it were evidence of a creator, is self delusion, and false logic.
Try again justin...there continues to be a complete and total lack of any evidence of any kind of any "creator" or any "gods"
justpro, everything you listed is proof of Zeus, why do you continue to worship the wrong god, despite all of the proof that Zeus is real?
The jury is out on your comment that your brain is working...
More ignorant and stupid comments coming from you...
"My DNA could only have been written by a creator of mankind as like this laptop i am typing on was created by a programmer with intelligence for writing code."
The analogy fails because we know that novel "specified complex" functional biological information can and does arise via purely natural "non-intelligent" mechanisms. Evolution is itself a "designer" . . .
@ just: And how exactly is faith – by definition the act of believing in something when there is no good evidence to support the existence of that which you believe in – based in evidence? What evidence?
The universe, The human construct, Our souls that we all have, The knowledge of Good and evil, Laws of physics, DNA encoding, Plenty of evidence of God around us not man made of course.... Sorry I and everyone around us were created by a Super intelligent being... We did not happen by accident
Are these all things you believe?
Zero evidence for a "Super intelligent being" only your imagination but keep believing if it makes you feel better.
Well maybe WE weren't accidents...
We were not because we were created in Gods image and have purpose in life.
Faith: pretending to know things you do not. Believers have absolutely no actual evidence for their delusions.
justpro86 – Dr. Dawkins was shaking his head in disbelief after the fat guy said that Atheism is faith based. That was not getting owned., That was having a superior intellect and gentleman not wanting to laugh in the fat guys face in a public forum. Even after the fat guy made some comment about Dr. Dawkins wife. Predictably, the video was cut before Dr. Dawkins replied. I have no doubt who got owned by the end of the debate.
I've got to call you out on this. You are saying faith is evidenced based? If you have evidence you don't need faith. This is exactly why Dr.Dawkins lowered his eyes and shook his head. What you (and the fat man) said is absolutely idiotic.
NO its the truth and he could not handle it
Ok justpro, dazzle us with the evidence. I can handle evidence of anything if it is provable and testable. I look forward to your resonse.
"The propitious smiles of Heaven, can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which heaven itself has ordained." -George Washington, Inaugural Address, April 30, 1789
May God forever bless this nation regardless of the blind ignorance of Atheists
If there was a god, why would that god bless something as arbitrary and artificial as a country? If the laws change does the blessing stop? What about a change in the borders?
Silly, silly, silly.
Israel is perfect example... God blessed them and allowed them to conquer many other nations... Israel fell out of the grace of God and they lost everything but as Jesus the son of God died for the world... God promised Israel will rise again after serving their punishment... Now IN ONE DAY israel became a recognized nation as God promised in 1948... God blessed the united states of america which follows the laws of God the christian law of everyone was created equally and see how far that got us? We are a world super power... Now as we see faith in God is fading and now this nation is slowly but gradually falling apart... We are trillions in debt and our economic system is about to collapse which will cause an epic world economy to collapse because the Dollar is counted on by many nations... So much is about to happen... Its clear this nation was blessed by God... Why we won so many wars and are respected by many...
Fun fact: when the US was finally founded in 1789, it was already in debt. It has been continuously in debt ever since.
This nation was founded on the unconditional acceptance of all beliefs or lack thereof. Your post is christian flag waving at its worst.
As Deist Christians, the first five presidents including John Adams, James Madison & Thomas Jefferson were likely to have quite a different notion of God than the Christian God of today. Deist Christians may have followed Christ's teachings, but usually refuted the divinity of Christ. Deists of that time generally also did not believe in a personal God. That is they believed in a creator, but not a God that played any active role in the lives of people.
They were always ready to call out on the dark side of organized religion:
"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved – the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced! With the rational respect that is due to it, knavish priests have added prostitutions of it, that fill or might fill the blackest and bloodiest pages of human history."
(John Adams, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson, 09/03/1816)
"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth. "
(Thomas Jefferson, from Notes on the State of Virginia, 1785)
Obviously Deism played an important part in the lives of the key framers who wrote the Constitution and its initial set of Amendments that we live by in the U.S.
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."
(James Madison, chief architect of the U.S. Constitution & Bill of Rights – from A Memorial and Remonstrance as delivered to the Virginia General Assembly in 1785.)
John Tyler, the 10th POTUS was a Deist Christian.
Many believe Abraham Lincoln was a Deist.
John Remsburg, in his book Six Historic Americans (1906), cites several of Lincoln's close associates:
'After his assassination Mrs. Lincoln said: "Mr. Lincoln had no hope and no faith in the usual acceptance of these words." His lifelong friend and executor, Judge David Davis, affirmed the same: "He had no faith in the Christian sense of the term." His biographer, Colonel Lamon, intimately acquainted with him in Illinois, and with him during all the years that he lived in Washington, says: "Never in all that time did he let fall from his lips or his pen an expression which remotely implied the slightest faith in Jesus as the son of God and the Savior of men." '
The Deistic side of John Adams comes out strong in these paragraphs A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America (1787-1788)
"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.
Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.
William Howard Taft, the only U.S. President to also hold the office of Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court:
I do not believe in the divinity of Christ, and there are many other of the postulates of the orthodox creed to which I cannot subscribe."
Way to go changing things around this nation was built on the belief of God and the Christian faith... Way to change history and make stuff up
We have this written history, we know who authored these things. There is a provenance for those letters. It is easy to verify.
We know that there is a reason this ISN'T a Christian theocratic government.
The US has a Christian majority, but it was FOUNDED to have a secular government.
The isn't revisionist. This is the truth.
Your still in the bubble and your comment shows an ignorance of history. But I should probably compliment you that you did not plagiarize it from someone else and take credit.
@just,, again, you're "taking that out of context"........ works both ways.
George Washington used words such as you posted in public speeches and addresses, but notice he never uses the word "god". He very rarely did. Once he got down to business however, it was a different story. Below is an excerpt from the Treaty of Tripoli written under Washington's purview in 1796 and ratified by congress and signed into law by his successor President Adams in 1797 after Washington left office. (caps are mine)
"AS THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
Besides lacking in truth atheism lacks one other vital component... Hope!
You have no idea what you're talking about.
More than you
I'm not the one on here lying about atheists, atheism, evolution, deaths caused by atheists, how much you lie, etc.
Neither em i
So post some evidence to support what you say about atheists, atheism, evolution, etc.
Truth is what corresponds to reality.
Your religion is the opposite of truth.
For you because you lack hope and you lack purpose and you lack faith thats why you cannot grasp truth
If your truth does not correspond to reality there is nothing to grasp.
More lies from just.... how sad when so called Christians lie through their teeth.
Hope is a human construct. It is not owned by religion.
Nope but God our creator gives us all hope... The human construct was constructed by God so it is technically owned by God...
I disagree. As whip below illustrates, hope is not solely owned by religion.
There are people worldwide who do not believe in the a Christian God, yet they all experience hope. It's a human thing.
Because God gave all mankind Hope simple... If there were no God we would be as mindless as a earth worm
Hope does not equal brain.
@ just: it's clear that you have no idea what "Atheism" is.
Hmm – I hope my son does well at school. Gosh – just proved you wrong – I DO have hope.
Um ok LOL I am talking about eternal hope
Our hope is that people will quit killing each other all over the world based on irrational belief. Our hope is that our country will embrace a rational course forward. Our hope is that those who hold irrational beliefs will one day open their eyes and become free thinkers. Free thinkers are full of hope.
In physics there is the law of conservation of energy and mass. It basically states that is it impossible to form mass out of nothing. Man can not create or destroy mass, only rearrange it. Only God can create and completely destroy. We are correct on calling it a mystery. We live and believe by faith. I'm sure you atheists on here are familiar with the scripture where Jesus tells Thomas that he believes because he has seen but blessed are those that believe and have not seen.
"Only God can create and completely destroy."
What evidence is there for that statement?
God can wipe everything out if he wanted to its because of his love we are still living today
And the evidence?
Another big fat evidence FAIL...... and the hits just keep on coming!
His evidence? "I imagined it"
"I'm sure you atheists on here are familiar with the scripture where Jesus tells Thomas that he believes because he has seen but blessed are those that believe and have not seen."
I'm very familiar with that quote. It's very much a part of my opinion in regards to Christianity. Being blessed isn't a requirement, only belief. I've only asked for the same level of evidence that Thomas required.
Maybe if you lived during that time but soon whether you are alive or most likely dead you will get your proof but most likely be too late... Our bodies may die in the flesh but our souls are eternal...
"Maybe if you lived during that time..."
Why should the standard change? Why should Thomas be allowed belief through evidence and you say it's required by faith?
I'm OK with not being "blessed", but I don't think one should be punished for honest disbelief.
How completely convenient. god has extreme powers but you are not allowed to actually see them. Sorry, if god can create or destroy matter/mass let's get him to the lab and see. How can you say in other posts that your belief system is compatible with science when you are not allow to employ science?
Praying helps people stay in control of their emotions and behaviour, according to a new study.People turn to prayer 'as a coping response to the high demands in life' and are rewarded with increased strength and ability to resist temptation, researchers said.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2515637/Does-prayer-help-resist-temptation-Talking-God-boosts-self-control-emotional-stability-claims-study.html#ixzz2mTdLdzVg
I'm shocked you actually posted a link instead of pretending you conducted the study yourself, you liar.
I am shocked a liar is calling me a liar LOL
I haven't lied yet, you freak. You have been shown here repeatedly lying. Go plagiarize some more, you pathetic liar.
So now I am a freak LOL why because I see truth... I am not lying so go infest another blog...
You shouldn't be. You are.
LOL Hypocrite your heresy is not welcome here
Do you know what heresy even means? I ask because your application of it is incorrect.
So does meditation. Please read http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/stress-management/in-depth/meditation/art-20045858
Atheists like to use the argument that Creationists believe in a magician waving his wand. I contend that it is the atheists who believe in magic, that everything in existence suddenly appeared out of nothing, completely on its own, for no reason or purpose what so ever. Life to them is meaningless, has no purpose and they are always in search of trying to explain the meaning of life outside of God. What a hollow, empty way of "living".
According to you, your god appeared out of nothing and produced the universe out of nothing. Even though you misrepresent the scientific knowledge (as you must to continue with your delusion) why add in the middle-man?
You don't fool anyone with your name change, finisherhispanicsaleroasshole. You're still a throbbing jerk and a liar and thief.
Thank you. I think you have finally found the proper alias for this nutcase.
I am not a liar or a thief the only throbbing jerks are you atheists trolling a christian blog
it's not a christian blog, d-bag
it is a belief blog
and we believe you are a troll
I believe you are a troll on a christian blog... Belief blog means you believe in god and notice majority of the blogs is on Christianity? Please retard learn to read..
Hilarious that you accuse others of doing what you are doing, lying thief. A troll's first defense is to accuse others of his own of fence. Lying douchebag.
I just post facts for all eyes to see... YOu cannot come up with anything yourself so all you can do is call me a liar... Regardless you call me no matter what does not destroy what I post...
Your posts are based on lies. Your facts are baseless. You are a lying thief. You established that early on. Too bad it's what you're known for now. Sux to be you.
Wishful thinking by another troll
It really is not a Christian blog. Not at all.
It features a lot of Christian articles and Christian topics – which attracts some certain atheists. But it really isn't intended for any belief group.
They do sometimes have articles by atheist authors written to an atheist audience. What is weird is that the atheists that regularly post here seem to prefer the Christian articles.
Thank you for making a reasonable argument. I too find it interesting that these Athesists are more attracted to Christian articles more than their own... Proves my point they are just trolls
How sodding disingenuous can you get?? The majority of the articles on here are about Christians.
Majority of the articles i seen on here is for Christians... Dalahast before posted a sound argument... Yes Atheist authors post from time to time why not migrate there... Seems like you all just want to troll us believers in truth more than anything... Even posts not even directed to you atheists just stating their opinion and maybe a bible verse or two and your all over that person throwing insults and tearing that person down.. Bout time you get your own medicine
See , that's how stupid you are. I'm not an atheist. I can always become atheist, but you will remain a lying thief.
LOL at least i keep my original ID Troll
LOL – you might want to look at the wikipedia page for starters on atheism. No wonder your posts are so asinine. You don't even know the basics about atheism.
Another criticism of atheism is that it is a faith in itself, as a belief in its own right, with a certainty about the falseness of religious beliefs that is comparable to the certainty about the unknown that is practiced by religions.[28] Journalist Rod Liddle and theologian Aliester McGrath assert that some atheists are dogmatic.[29][30]
In a study on American secularity, Frank Pasquale notes that some tensions do exist among secular groups where, for instance, atheists are sometimes viewed as "fundamentalists" by secular humanists.[31]
– Wikipedia
So what?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Christianity
It was relevant for Doris. I don't refer people to Wikipedia to learn about atheists.
Let me get this straight, so as an atheist I have 'faith" that no gods exist?... just like I have faith that no leprechauns exist.
Nope, that is not what that criticism was addressing.
The basics of atheism is the belief there is not God if there is no God than how are we talking today... Atheist scientists come down to a conclusion that everything was created from nothing....I did my research sister
The creation myths of religious texts have all been proven to be incorrect, therefore the gods they promote are unnecessary and have no evidence to support them.
Do you have any other evidence of a god?
Evolution is a myth and incorrect you can trash my bible all you want but you do realize you can never destroy it.. MY book lasted more than 2,000 years and still stands strong today
"Atheist scientists come down to a conclusion that everything was created from nothing"
Did you do your research in a vacuum? Who are you talking about?
I posted on what most atheist scientists proclaim
You obviously do not understand what a myth is; nor what atheism is. So you continue to lie for Jesus.
I never lie... Apparently you are confused with facts and lies... I post facts... nothing else
"I post facts."
You're a riot.
Back to school for you tomorrow – at least then having the last word might be the achievement you seem to think it is.
Yes back to school.. College is actually fun
Be sure to attend the classes if accepted, you seem to need all the education you can get.
LOL we all need good education especially you... I am already been accepted going for my bachelors
"Accepted for my bachelors".
A bachelors is a four year undergraduate degree. You were "accepted " for that when you were accepted into your Uni and decided what you wanted to get a degree in....that's not exactly a crowning achievement. You pass all of your required classes for that degree, and voila! You get your degree.
This is all very common and says nothing at all about how intelligent one is.
I misread your post, justpro. Apologies.
Have fun in college. I did.
What are you going for? What school?
"Evolution is a myth and incorrect " wow.... what complete ignorance!
"The basics of atheism is the belief there is not God " WRONG..... again....
Word twisting again I see..... you should get a job in marketing.
Atheism = lack of belief on god....... NOT, "I believe that I don't believe"
I've seen your research so you can keep those lies to yourself. Atheists, nor any scientist worth his salt, believe that everything came from nothing. Where do you get this tripe. The amount of matter in the universe is the same today as it was 14B years ago.
"that everything in existence suddenly appeared out of nothing"
I guess I'm not familiar with that theory. The one I know says the universe expanded from a singularity. A singularity is far from "nothing".
Atheists do not believe that everything came from nothing. All the matter that exists today has always evicted, no more no less – so wrong again. On your second point, you have no idea how liberating and calming it is to think freely without false constructs and myths. There are enough things in this world to overcome without imaging new ones.
Scientific research demonstrates that prayer boosts emotional stability and self-control. Of course, atheists have a history of suppressing science, especially that which demonstrates that religion is good for mental & physical health.
Do you have evidence of suppression?
Utterly ridiculous. I suppose Galileo just wandered into prison on his own, not because of his science.
"[If] the nature of... government [were] a subordination of the civil to the ecclesiastical power, I [would] consider it as desperate for long years to come. Their steady habits [will] exclude the advances of information, and they [will] seem exactly where they [have always been]. And there [the] clergy will always keep them if they can. [They] will follow the bark of liberty only by the help of a tow-rope." –Thomas Jefferson
Liar.
Nope its true and it does happen because after prayer I feel like I can take on a ten man army
True of many drugs.
It takes drugs to believe in evolution
Do yourself some good – get an education: http://evolution.berkeley.edu/
As you'd been told many times – evolution is taught at all major universities and creationism is taught at none; the reason is there is a mountain of evidence for evolution and none for creationism.
Evolution is a lie not education
Uh oh, Santa, Rumelstiltskin wants to teach us about evolution.... lol..
LOL your a riot
Let's hope we get the same result.
You mean Pinocchio wants to teach us about evolution.
For starters, 10 men does not make an army. Regarding your prayer – I believe you – you are quite the force to be reckoned with.
More proof of Atheist intolerance; Militant atheists (including Dawkins, Coyne, Myers, & Harris) demanded a scientist, Francis Collins, who headed the Human Genome Project, as well as discovered the genes for Huntington's disease, neurofibromatosis, multiple endocrine neoplasia type 1 and Hutchinson-Gilford Progeria Syndrome, to step down from leading the NIH, due to Collins' Christian faith...
Do some research – http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/the-strange-case-of-francis-collins/
My research is sound
Oh I forgot it's Sunday – you're all jacked up on Jesus juice and lie for Jesus is the order of the day.
The only liars are you atheists
Your research is all lies. You are a liar.
So your calling well known scientists liars? YOur an idiot
Collins is a geneticist and evangelical Christian most famous for managing the human genome project. He’s also a prolific writer of essays and books on what he considers to be “evidence” for belief in the Christian God. His latest is ti.tled Belief: Readings on the Reason for Faith.
Legally, of course, he can write and say whatever he wants about his faith – no debate there. But Coyne makes a compelling argument that Collins has blurred the line between being the director of the highest profile science position in the U.S. and being a proselytizing believer to the point of incoherence. If he were an atheist or represented almost any other religious position so fervently, he’d probably already have been asked to resign.
Coyne:
"Collins is director of the NIH, and is using his office to argue publicly that scientific evidence—the Big Bang, the “Moral Law” and so forth—points to the existence of a God. That is blurring the lines between faith and science: exactly what I hoped he would not do when he took his new job.And to those who say that he has the right to publish this sort of stuff, well, yes he does. He has the legal right. But it’s not judicious to argue publicly, as the most important scientist in the US, that there is scientific evidence for God. Imagine, for example, the outcry that would ensue if Collins were an atheist and, as NIH director, published a collection of atheistic essays along the lines of Christopher Hitchens’s The Portable Atheist, but also arguing that scientific evidence proved that there was no God. He would, of course, promptly be canned as NIH director.
Or imagine if Collins were a Scientologist, arguing that the evidence pointed to the existence of Xenu and ancient “body-thetans” that still plague humans today. Or a Muslim, arguing that evidence pointed to the existence of Allah, and of Mohamed as his divine prophet. Or if he published a book showing how scientific evidence pointed to the efficacy of astrology, or witchcraft. People would think he was nuts.
Collins gets away with this kind of stuff only because, in America, Christianity is a socially sanctioned supersti.tion. He’s the chief government scientist, but he won’t stop conflating science and faith. He had his chance, and he blew it. He should step down."
Wrong
Thank you for proving once again justpro lies.
Show me. All I can find is that he debated Dr. Dawkins and Sam Harris questioned his objectivity do to his irrational beliefs. Show me the mechanism that the "Radical Atheists" are using to make him step down.
High school wrestling team stands up to atheist bullying by refusing to remove Bible verse from T-shirt. Does it take courage to stand up to atheist intolerance?
"Public" high school.
No it takes intolerance to display religious dogma in a public school in the face of those who don't have the same beliefs.
"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure.”
-Adolf Hitler
143,600,000 total murdered by atheists directly in the past 100 years.
428,400,000 total murdered by atheists indirectly by legalizing baby killing in the past 100 years.
If atheism had been in power as long as Christianity has been, by now atheists would have murdered directly and indirectly 11,440,000,000. 11.44 billion people, approaching double the number of people alive on the planet right now.
**********
IMPORTANT NOTE: we are NOT claiming that all atheists are bad people; however, this post, based on real facts, is focused on debunking the false arguments of skeptics who are all the time claiming that religion is the cause of violence and suffering in the world throughout history which is absolutely false.
justpro86 = Liar for Jesus
Nope I post facts cant handle them disappear
If you were telling the truth you would have to show that a lack of belief in god(s) is the actual cause and motivation for those deaths...but you can't.
You conflate coorelation with causation. Liar for Jesus.
Big fat lies for jeebus... you must be proud.... oh wait, pride is a sin...
If all atheists are not bad people, why does your God condemn good people to eternal torment.
Same as you won't invite someone that hates you for dinner
Quite a petty god you have there.
Your numbers are not verifiable. The people killed by totalitarian leaders were mainly not killed because those leaders did not find the god delusion convincing. The majority of abortions are not had by atheists – yet you believe that miscarriages are "acts of god", so your god kills on a bigger scale.
Its because Atheists are killers
Provide some real evidence of that. Then compare to those killed and being killed by believers. People rarely kill because of atheism – Stalin probably killed a few but more because the outlawed church resisted his totalitarian regime.
I did
And you are a proven liar, so your words mean nothing.
Your a proven moron your insults mean nothing
You're quite stupid, aren't you? You are a liar. You are a troll. Oh I know!! Please post some more crap you've stolen!
Whos the troll? You are on a christian article and trolling anybody who posts scripture... LOL You just cant handle the truth LOL
Abortions are performed overwhelmingly on Christian women, you lying pos. Why do you lie so much, you evil Christian? Millions have died in religious wars. Why do believers murder so much? The prisons are full of Christian killers.
Liar. Liar. Justpro.
I don't lie and abortions we christians fight against stop lying
Look up the stats, you stupid jerk. There aren't that many atheist women to support your assertion. You Christians are the ones getting all the abortions.
Now look whos lying you hypocrite
Your Christian women get the most abortions. FACT.
Wow and have we spoken before? or are you the same fool under a new ID
Not to butt in, because of course I am, but it is a statistical fact that Christian women do, in fact, have the most abortions.
2."I will destroy ... both man and beast."
God is angry. He decides to destroy all humans, beasts, creeping things, fowls, and "all flesh wherein there is breath of life." He plans to drown them all. Genesis 6:7, 17
So, yes Hitler said that. What's your point? Regarding your numbers you got them off of the FFAF facebook page and there is no reference as to where they came from. So par for the course for you – It's meaningless. If you think otherwise please provide the breakdown of what atheists killed how many and when. A general statement I will stand behind is that no one ever killed masses of people over atheism. You can find some Atheists who have done terrible things, but not in the name of atheism. Christianity on the other hand has cut a bloody path through history. The crusades, the inquisition, the witch hunts – all done in the name of your god. Coincidently the name of this blog is why christians should support the death penalty. And regarding the abortion death number you can stick that one in your ear. Your god is the biggest abortionist of all with over half of all pregnancies aborting spontaneously. In closing I stumblled upon an interesting fact. 83% of women who have abortions identify as christian. Here is the link. http://www.cafemom.com/journals/read/1567668/Christian_Women_and_Abortion_Rates_Part_I_Sobering_News_for_the_Church
"What tells an atheist murder is wrong? "
What tells an alleged God that murder is wrong?
Natural Revelation.
Meant to answer the quoted question, for all people though.
... and the unquoted question?
God is Maker of all things and the Source of "Natural Revelation," hence God's "Natural Law."
You didn't the question.
You didn't answer the question.
saying it over don't make it so, vic
God Himself.
So why would a supposed God's arbitrary judgement any better than anyone else's?
The Creator, Maker, of all things is the Most High Supreme.
Again, you didn't answer the question.
I believe I did.
1) What the heck is the "Most High Supreme"
2) Why should we believe you that "God Himself" is that.
3) What makes a "Most High Supreme" more capable of such judgments.
Basically, claiming a ti.tle for your god doesn't provide an answer.
1) The Creator and the creature are NOT equal, the Creator can ONLY be Higher than anything except Himself.
2) We believe that from Scripture, aka "Special Revelation," hence Faith.
3) The key is in "Maker," that's why I used that vocabulary, it encompasses that God "made" things the way they are, hence, He "made" murder WRONG.
The "Most High Supreme" is a characterization encompassing the answer to your original question of what makes God's Judgement better than any.
"He 'made' murder WRONG."
So your morality is just an arbitrary choice made by your God. How is that any better than any other choice?
How could it be arbitrary when it is created intentional?!
How could it be arbitrary when it is created intentionally?!
Not sure I understand your point, 'arbitrary' does not preclude intention.
At best, for things being made the way they are by God, it would be arbitrary only to us as to why, since we don't know "everything" about God and His Divine Will, Wisdom, Justice, and Command, and how they totally work, but it is not arbitrary to God Himself.
Wait so there is a rationale to morality? It's not inherently right or wrong, but can be right or wrong based on God's reasoning? That seems to match at least one definition of arbitrary:
"3 a: based on or determined by individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the intrinsic nature of something" (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arbitrary)
Well, in general, arbitrary means at random.
Now, the third definition you provided, from one of my favorite dictionaries, shows exactly that a choice determined by an individual, hence a creature, is subjective "individual preference or convenience," while God's purpose is objective "necessity or the intrinsic nature of something."
“Well, in general, arbitrary means at random.”
Random choice, not strictly random, i.e. made by an individual, usually one with power.
“1 Based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system:”
(http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/arbitrary)
“a choice determined by an individual, hence a creature, is subjective "individual preference or convenience," while God's purpose is objective "necessity or the intrinsic nature of something.""
Sorry but that is just special pleading. You’re claiming that in all cases but the alleged God, individual preference is subjective, i.e special pleading.
Well, in the case of God, it is "Faith."
p.s. We easily detect that God made right or wrong, hence morality, inherent in us.
"We easily detect that God made right or wrong, hence morality, inherent in us."
Oh please. You haven't shown an objective "morality" exists and you haven't shown that, if one existed, it was necessarily "made" by an alleged God.
"Does this Tiger repellent work."
"You don't see any Tigers do you?"
"Well, in the case of God, it is "Faith.""
Sorry, missed this, but I'm not sure what you even mean by it. Faith that special pleading is valid? or that God is "objective"?
"1) The Creator and the creature are NOT equal, the Creator can ONLY be Higher than anything except Himself."
Why? In the story of Frankenstein, the "monster" was stronger, faster, smarter and more moral, than his creator. I'm not aware of anything that could prevent a creation from being the equal to, if not superior in many respects, its creator.
"2) We believe that from Scripture, aka "Special Revelation," hence Faith."
Do you mean "Faith" as in "the belief in things unseen" or "Faith" as in the "the body of Faith"?
"3) The key is in "Maker," that's why I used that vocabulary, it encompasses that God "made" things the way they are, hence, He "made" murder WRONG."
Then it is still arbitrary. If God can make it wrong, he can make it not wrong. If it ONLY wrong because he says/"made" it that way, that is the very definition of arbitrary.
"Murder" is what we the call immoral/illegal killing of another human being. What we call "murder" another society may call "justice".
Re-run:
Well, in the case of God, it is not special pleading, it is "Faith/Belief"
p.s. We easily detect that "God made" right or wrong, hence "objective" morality, inherent in us.
And:
"We are here, there must be an "Origin," hence a "First Cause," hence God." [Roar...]
Well, to recap, I explained earlier in the thread that it is at best arbitrary only to us but it is not arbitrary to God Himself.
Also, 'Murder' is the unjust taking of an innocent human life, and it is flat out IMMORAL, flat out WRONG. We inherently know that by heart.
“We are here, there must be an ‘Origin’...”
If God is here, there must be an ‘Origin’ for Him too.
… else special pleading
“... unjust taking of an innocent human life, and it is flat out IMMORAL, flat out WRONG. We inherently know that by heart.
While I agree that it is wrong in our society and I would argue that it is best, for all societies, that it be considered wrong, in the long run, we do not “inherently know” that it is “immoral”, else infanticide, or neonaticide, would never have been acceptable in any society, but it has been. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide)
"but it is not arbitrary to God Himself."
One of us still isn't getting it here Vic. If it's not arbitrary to God that would mean it has an independant existence apart from God. But if that were the case, it would mean he would also be subject to it, which makes no sense in Christian Theology. So the only option I can see is that it's wrong because God says it wrong (for now). That's arbitary if I've ever heard it.
Id add: what keeps non- Christian societies from having murder rates far in excess of Christian majority societies? The stats actually show that the more secular the nation is the lower the murder rate.
this is not to say that Christianity is a driving force for violence in the west – the two most violent, USA and Russia are extreme capitalism at work- but you would think that Christian majority nations should have a decidedly lower murder rate.
Everybody lives and breathes God's "Natural Law."
BTW, while the USA is Capitalist, Russia is Socialist at best, if not still Communist.
Vic,
Russia is the wild west of capitalism atm...they dont have the iron fist of the PRoC atm micromanaging business. Instead they are a nation of oligarchs- anything goes as long as you have the network and muscle to see it through . Thats what Putin is... His push into the Ukraine is an attempt to preserve an important leg in his personal empire...and there are many like him in Russia, as long as they dont step on each others toes they could give a hoot what anyone else is doing.
That's a topic for another Blog post.
In short:
Russia is anti-Capitalism anti-West, plain and simple. Putin is put up with ambitions to reclaim the USSR.
you are 20 years behind in your russian history Vic.
Or more importantly, what tells a God who creates a tree, that it is wrong to eat the fruit of said tree.
What does that mean?!
"...They can change and help prevent others for murdering."
Dalahast – seriously? murder is one of those crimes that is well beyond the forgiveness line. I am one that believes that no killer is worth more than his crime. Keeping these bast.ards around for 50-60 years is insane. These guys are just sorry they got caught, not sorry for the live(s) they took. Trying to rehabilitate a killer is stupidity – and our prisons leech civility out of the inmates, not rehab them.
"Keeping these bast.ards around for 50-60 years is insane"
I'm undecided on capital punishment, but some might argue that it is more expensive, with all the appeals, stays, and legal hurdles, to execute them.
Perhaps just locking them up and throwing away the key would be more efficient in the long run.
"I'm undecided on capital punishment, but some might argue that it is more expensive, with all the appeals, stays, and legal hurdles, to execute them."
Then I'd say we need to fix that aspect of it. I'm also undecided (morally), but from a social good standpoint, I don't see being supported by the society they rejected for the rest of their lives as ideal either.
I have seen the families of the victim of murder forgive the murderer.
I know a murderer that was set free. He lives in hell for what he did. But he works to change himself and others.
It is tough to forgive someone for something like that. Yes.
Evidence for this supposed "HeII"??
Hell is a state of being.
Nope, Christians say heII is a real place...
Of course in some parts of the world, the Christian has become the judge, jury and executioner. Evangelicals that have recently traveled from the U.S. to incite violence and the killing of others make the Salem witch trials look like a tea party.
Let's see who seem to arrive at the same conclusions on this issue as Salero and Theo, etc. who obviously seem convinced the Bible gives the "all clear" for capital punishment:
–Muslims, mostly those you practice strict Sharia law
–Assemblies of God (they try to take a neutral position, but effectively say it's good to go as far as the Bible is concerned; also the perhaps more fundamental Pentacostals outside the U.S. obviously see it as a tool to help shape the world the way they see fit).
–many evangelicals. Billy Graham, Evangelical religious leader, in an article t.itled "The Power of the Cross," published in the Apr. 2007 issue of Decision magazine wrote:
"God will not tolerate sin. He condemns it and demands payment for it. God could not remain a righteous God and compromise with sin. His holiness and His justice demand the death penalty."
–The National Association of Evangelicals
–The Southern Baptist Convention, of course.
–The Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod
Birds of a primitive feather flock together when it comes to their desire (and for many, their claimed "right") to exercise control over the life of another.
Letting go of superstition
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yceHh5khkXo
Speakers in order of appearance:
1. Lawrence Krauss, World-Renowned Physicist
2. Robert Coleman Richardson, Nobel Laureate in Physics
3. Richard Feynman, World-Renowned Physicist, Nobel Laureate in Physics
4. Simon Blackburn, Cambridge Professor of Philosophy
5. Colin Blakemore, World-Renowned Oxford Professor of Neuroscience
6. Steven Pinker, World-Renowned Harvard Professor of Psychology
7. Alan Guth, World-Renowned MIT Professor of Physics
8. Noam Chomsky, World-Renowned MIT Professor of Linguistics
9. Nicolaas Bloembergen, Nobel Laureate in Physics
10. Peter Atkins, World-Renowned Oxford Professor of Chemistry
11. Oliver Sacks, World-Renowned Neurologist, Columbia University
12. Lord Martin Rees, Astronomer Royal
13. Sir John Gurdon, Pioneering Developmental Biologist, Cambridge
14. Sir Bertrand Russell, World-Renowned Philosopher, Nobel Laureate
15. Stephen Hawking, World-Renowned Cambridge Theoretical Physicist
16. Riccardo Giacconi, Nobel Laureate in Physics
17. Ned Block, NYU Professor of Philosophy
18. Gerard 't Hooft, Nobel Laureate in Physics
19. Marcus du Sautoy, Oxford Professor of Mathematics
20. James Watson, Co-discoverer of DNA, Nobel Laureate
21. Colin McGinn, Professor of Philosophy, Miami University
22. Sir Patrick Bateson, Cambridge Professor of Ethology
23. Sir David Attenborough, World-Renowned Broadcaster and Naturalist
24. Martinus Veltman, Nobel Laureate in Physics
25. Pascal Boyer, Professor of Anthropology
26. Partha Dasgupta, Cambridge Professor of Economics
27. AC Grayling, Birkbeck Professor of Philosophy
28. Ivar Giaever, Nobel Laureate in Physics
29. John Searle, Berkeley Professor of Philosophy
30. Brian Cox, Particle Physicist (Large Hadron Collider, CERN)
31. Herbert Kroemer, Nobel Laureate in Physics
32. Rebecca Goldstein, Professor of Philosophy
33. Michael Tooley, Professor of Philosophy, Colorado
34. Sir Harold Kroto, Nobel Laureate in Chemistry
35. Leonard Susskind, Stanford Professor of Theoretical Physics
36. Quentin Skinner, Professor of History (Cambridge)
37. Theodor W. Hänsch, Nobel Laureate in Physics
38. Mark Balaguer, CSU Professor of Philosophy
39. Richard Ernst, Nobel Laureate in Chemistry
40. Alan Macfarlane, Cambridge Professor of Anthropology
41. Professor Neil deGrasse Tyson, Princeton Research Scientist
42. Douglas Osheroff, Nobel Laureate in Physics
43. Hubert Dreyfus, Berkeley Professor of Philosophy
44. Lord Colin Renfrew, World-Renowned Archaeologist, Cambridge
45. Carl Sagan, World-Renowned Astronomer
46. Peter Singer, World-Renowned Bioethicist, Princeton
47. Rudolph Marcus, Nobel Laureate in Chemistry
48. Robert Foley, Cambridge Professor of Human Evolution
49. Daniel Dennett, Tufts Professor of Philosophy
50. Steven Weinberg, Nobel Laureate in Physics
FEATURED MUSIC:
Mozart – Requiem Mass In D Minor K 626 – 1. Introitus 00:03
Massive Attack – Two Rocks And A Cup Of Water 02:28, 19:14
Max Richter – Embers 05:13
Ludovico Einaudi – Andare 09:27, 24:30, 26:31
Ludovico Einaudi – Nuvole Bianche 13:13
Max Richter – Vladimir's Blues 29:21
Ludovico Einaudi – Eni 30 Percento (The Earth Prelude) 33:16
o^o
Why do atheists care it people do wrong? They think life is meaningless as they think and believe we all just die off. Basically, they hold no personal responsibility for their actions. Their belief is depressing. No wonder they are obsessed with religion. They have no purpose. Sad. I'd recommend seeking therapy. They offer great advice and can help you battle your depression. Maybe you should first admit atheism is a lie and work from there😄
No personal responsibilty for OUR actions?
Your religion is the one that promotes the idea that you need a scapegoat to take responsibility for YOUR actions...you are too funny.
I don't understand why Christians are so obsessed with dealing out judgement in this life when they are 100% sure Hell is real. Also, given Christians believe you have to be saved before you die, the death penalty denies the executed the chance at a possible future salvation. It would seem more logical to sentence them to life with costant preaching.
Can you specify what Christians you are talking about? Are you just thinking of the author of this article? Not all Christians believe what you say they do. For example, I don't personally know any that are 100% sure hell is real. And most don't say God can't save people after death. Jesus conquered death.
"Jesus conquered death"
So did Bill and Ted.
Good one.
And I agree, it makes more sense to not execute them. They can change and help prevent others for murdering.
Or they can kill again. I'd like to believe that some murders are reformed by the prison experience but is it the norm? Should we set the bar by the exception or the norm?
No. The prison experience does not seem to reform most people.
Anybody can end up killing. All murderers were probably like you and I before they murdered.
"They can change" vs. "most people are not reformed from prison"
So which is it? Should we not execute them because they can change even though the majority won't?
"life with constant preaching."
There is a law against cruel and unusual punishment.
The christians would not have their god if not for the death penalty. So it must be a good thing.
Thou shall not kill...a commandment from their god. So it must be a bad thing.
Since you can use the bible to justify pretty much anything you want to do, it makes one thing extremely obvious. The bible should not be considered when making governing laws.
The Bible was considered when many of our governing laws were created for our nation. And it still is today. Some lead to good laws that we probably agree on. Some lead to questionable laws we probably both don't like.
Since there are NO laws that are from the bible, and exclusively from the bible, your point is moot, execpt for the MANY cases where the christians decided to persecute everyone else by passing laws based on their beliefs. One by one, we are removing them.
Since there are no laws that are striclty from the bible, the bible is most definitely NOT needed to create laws to govern ourselves. The laws come from our humanity, which existed BEFORE your book, and was written into your book.
Humanity came first, and will outlast your book. Your book came second, and it is becoming more and more obvious that it though the bible does have some great wisdoms, it is a baseless stroy book, and is even obviously false, and proven as such. Humanity will outlast your bible.
If every bible were to suddenly disappear, all of the knowledge of it were to suddenly disappear, our laws would likely be quite similar to what they are now.
The Bible isn't supposed to serve as our government. I just meant that some of the people that created our laws considered the Bible. And they still do today. A lot of people that find the Bible meaningful also support the ideals our country cherishes: free speech, equality and opportunity for all.
There is nothing in our laws that is exclusive to the bible, and since any law based on the bible would violate the const!tution, it should not be used....ever. It is a base for religion, and aas such, cannot have laws based on it.
What are you talking about?
Humanity predates the Bible? No kidding. I've never heard 1 Christian suggest otherwise.
It is not forbidden by the Const.itution to consider the Bible when making laws.
Our laws are by the people for the people. People who accept the Bible and people who don't accept the Bible, for people who accept the Bible and people who don't accept the Bible.
There is nothing in the Const.itution that forbids a lawmaker from considering the Bible when writing, making and passing laws. It is not a secular manifesto.
It is a free country.
You can consult the bible, but you cannot make any law BASED on the bible. Thre are many laws that COINCIDE with the bible, but it is illegal to make any law SOLEY based on the bible.
Since any laws that get passed never come exclusively from the bible, the bible adds nothing that cannot be gained from other sources, so is completely un-needed.
Has anyone ever tried to make a law SOLEY based on the bible? And what law says you can not make a law SOLEY based on the bible? The vast majority of Christians don't want to do such a thing. It is great you agree with so many Christian on the matter.
For a different perspective, and why I maintain the fringe has become the center :
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/iowa-gop-senate-candidates-vow-block-judges-who-wont-follow-biblical-law
In the U.S. Dala, or worldwide? Obviously people in other countries are making laws primarily from their religious beliefs that are the cause of incarceration, killings and suicides for those who are just different. This includes Christians in large numbers in Africa for instance. And Christians in the U.S. helped them get that way. Without a strong separation of church and state, I'm afraid we could easily be in the same boat.
That is scary. Unfortunately some atheists are just as scary.
I'm glad the spirit of the Const.itution protects us from people like fringe radical Christians and fringe radical atheists.
" Unfortunately some atheists are just as scary."
Example ? Because I assure you, I can cite MANY more.
A group called the American Atheists and their silly lawsuits against things like the "World Trade Center Cross".
I agree the lawsuits are silly. They do not, however, seek to alter the nature of our government.
Doris
I was talking about in the US.
But yes that occurs worldwide. But that is not something inherent to Christianity. Even atheists and non-religious people have demonstrated they do the same things.
And Christians can also be the target and victims of incarceration and killings by non-Christians.
@Dalahast,
While I don't agree with the American Atheist methods, I'd hardly call them "scary".
To those that cherish first amendment rights, the American Atheists are scary. Although most people see them as a big joke.
What is the nature of our government? Corrupt, dishonest, unreliable?
In reality the nature of our government is not highly esteemed. Of course we want to change the nature of our government. It changes every single day.
I think there are some religious groups, like the one you mentioned and the American Atheists, that do not have my ideals for our government.
" What is the nature of our government? Corrupt, dishonest, unreliable? "
Now you're merely being disingenuous. We are a democratic republic, and there is a very strong element in the contemporary evangelical movement that openly seeks to change that. There are no atheist groups pursuing that dangerous a goal that I am aware of.
Seriously. The nature of our government is not in good shape.
You can label it a democratic republic, but there are many elements that we are governed by that are not.
Do you work for the government of something?
Call me crazy, but I find a group that would travel to Africa with the intent to incite violence against other people scarier than a group who has brought lawsuits against something. You do realize that there are people sitting in jail, people that have committed suicide and people that have been killed as a direct result of the fundamental campaign in Africa by a team of U.S. evangelicals don't you, Dala?
Doris,
It is horrible. Compared to atheists suing there is no comparison to that group of Evangelical Christians actions. No sh.t.
Are you doing anything to help the victims? Did you know there are groups of Christians doing things to help those victims?
Christians are just as outraged over those crimes as you.
Why would you assume I work for the government ? Because I gave it its proper label ?
Your entire posting strategy is always to have a counterpoint to whatever complaint non'believers have with Christians, showing that they are, or can be, just as guilty as Christians. In this case, there is no counterpoint, and you don't like it.
I was joking about you working for the government.
Most people view the government as corrupt. You can label it how your school taught you to label it. But some of the labels are not so accurate.
Atheists and Christians are capable of the same crimes. There are a small minority of atheists that like to scapegoat Christians and religion for all the world's problems. Yes, I don't like it.
Your posting strategy is very similar.
You are still being disingenuous about the nature of our government. Any FORM of government can be corrupt. The one we started with is the one we should keep, not a theocracy as so many would like.
And you still have no counterpoint.
Most religious people don't want a theocracy.
The government started as a way to protect property owning white males.
But the nature changed.
And it still changes.
Just because I disagree with your philosophy doesn't mean I have no counterpoint. We are sharing our opinions. It is a message board. In the opinion section. Under an article written by a Christian author to a Christian audience.
Please show me where I said "most" Christians want a theocracy. I didn't, and this is another part of your style, openly misrepresent what the other person says.
Dala: "Did you know there are groups of Christians doing things to help those victims? "
Exactly what are any groups doing Dala? Putting them in their "prayers"? I'd like to see evidence that Christian groups are making real effort to undo the crazy beliefs that their brethren help put in place. The one Anglican bishop that was trying to quell the violence there was demoted recently for his efforts. Is that what you call progress in the name of your god's message Dala?
Ugh. Please show me where I said you said "most' Christians want a theocracy". I didn't, and this is another part of your style, openly misrepresent what the other person says.
Back at ya.
Nonsense. And more disingenuous tap dancing. Gregory Hines would be jealous.
And then there's Benedict who accepted the Christmas gift from the Ugandan senate to push through the "kill all the gays bill", blessing its top representative.
Of course now that the "kill all the gays" bill is firmly in place, Christians from the top have put on their sympathetic face and have sent letters advising the Ugandans to show mercy.
Help my azz.
Having worked most of the evening and day, I am off for a rest. ( No government work for me. ) Have a pleasant evening all.
Doris
Dala: "Did you know there are groups of Christians doing things to help those victims? "
+ Exactly what are any groups doing Dala? Putting them in their "prayers"?
There are Christian that are doing the exact same thing you are (nothing). And there are some groups that are atively working to help the victims. There are a lot of Christians and other groups that are very upset because these actions of others are harming the help they provide.
+ I'd like to see evidence that Christian groups are making real effort to undo the crazy beliefs that their brethren help put in place. The one Anglican bishop that was trying to quell the violence there was demoted recently for his efforts.
Have you seen any evidence of anything you talk about? Or do you just watch it on tv? How are you helping the victims?
+ Is that what you call progress in the name of your god's message Dala?
No. I'm working with a group in Africa to provide water to a small village that has been devastated by AIDS and other diseases. We are a small group and have started providing some food and other items, like clothes and bedding for an orphanage. We provide a way for people to sponsor children and provide them with medical care and other necessities. We have a goal to plant a well. We spoke with someone from Water.org and things are starting to look promising.
A church down the street from us has planted 10 wells in a different part of the region. They built a school. Things are looking better for that area. It is amazing. I hope our work can be as successful.
midwest rail
I never said you said what I suggested you said.
Not only did I not say Christians – it wasn't the point of my post.
Most religious people agree with you on not wanting a theocracy. Calm down. You must be the one dancing and projecting that on me. Have a great rest of the day.
Doris
Some of the victims in Uganda are Christians themselves.
Anyway, here is an example of those who are helping:
http://globalnews.ca/news/1238715/christian-cleric-openly-ministers-to-ugandan-ga * ys-urges-tolerance/
" You must be the one dancing and projecting that on me. Have a great rest of the day "
Not even close, but if that makes you feel better, then no rebuttal offered.
Mr. Mohler, Based on your Biblical basis for supporting the death penalty, should we also support the death penalty for fornication, adultery, breaking the 7th day Sabbath, and other violations of moral law that we so comfortably take for granted today. Are you prepared for that? You must be consistent and not cite the Bible only when it suits your personal opinion.
We are not under the Mosaic Law, aka Old Testament Law, since the "Dispensation of Grace" through Salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Dr. Mohler preambled the whole issue of 'Capital Punishment' with an intriguing question that he characterized as a not simple yes or no question. Then he went on in presenting the need for the measure a Christian teaching as opposed to Law.
The 'Capital Punishment' is called for ONLY in murder cases as fitting the crime and none others.
Vic, this minister is using the Mosaic law to support his stance.
The OP is legitimate in asking those questions.
Incorrect Vic.
The death penalty is also in place in some areas for ra.p.e , especially for ra.p.e of a young child.
The bible on the other hadn, does NOT consider ra.p.e of a child as bad, except for the stain on HER for having $ex outside of wedlock, and the ra.p.ist can make it all better by giving her father 50 sheckles of silver and marrying the VICTIM. According to the bible, that is OK...a practice still done in Morrocco, and sanctioned by the bible.
And where in the NT does it say that the death penalty is only to be applied in murder cases?
That's exactly my point. Why call for capital punishment for murder only, based on the Old Testament Law, and not apply it to other violations as is also prescribed in Old Testament Law. Where is the consistency? Besides, doesn't the Dispensation of Grace, as you call it, not provide for grace in capital crimes? Since we are under your Dispensation of Grace, which other Old Testament laws are't we suppose to keep...disrespecting our parents, adultery, stealing, lying, covetousness?
Vic
Did Jesus, or even the early Christian movement, have a definite position on who should get capital punishment? Seems to me that Jesus stopped the execution of a prosti.tute who was about to be stoned to death. Wouldn't the Christian position be then that none are without sin, so none may execute others?
To all:
As Christians, we believe we are justified and saved by the Grace of God through Faith Alone in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior AND apart from the Law—Mosaic, Old Testament. That's what Salvation is all about.
Now, being saved does not mean we do away with "Natural Law" that has been part of and in this creation all along. It is customary for Christians to cite teachings from the Old Testament and New Testaments that are actually referencing the "Natural Law" but not as requirements.
Looks like Vic is in the spin cycle.
So says you, so what...you haven't answered the question.
I can't emphasize it enough:
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/05/01/why-christians-should-support-the-death-penalty/comment-page-1/#comment-3001323
Yeah Vic we know, you say the death penality is part of "natural law". You have stated that but you have not demonstrated that it actually is a part of natural law...nor have you demonstrated that natural law exists. It is nothing more than an assertion and that is not impressive.
How do you explain "Traffic Law" then?
"Traffic Law" as well as the "Laws of Physics" are all parts of the "Natural Law."
Traffic laws can be explained by the fact that men created "traffic laws". Traffic laws are "proscriptive". Trffic laws did not exist until mean created them.
The laws of physics are "descriptive". The laws of physics are independent of humans.
These are not the same thing...look up those words if you don't understand the difference.
**Traffic laws did not exist until men created them.**
All the laws of nature have been out there all along as they are parts and parcel of this creation, it is just a matter of time till humans arrived at and discovered them. Those laws of nature include, physics, logic, etc., hence "Natural Law."
Really Vic? Traffic laws have ALWAYS existed?
Please demonstrate the truth of that assertion. You seem to have gone full loony tunes.
Vic
That is your baseless opinion of it, but since you mention things like "creation" which there is no basis for, your point is moot.
Since you cannot draw direct cause and effect correlation, we can see that you are just making stuff up again.
There are natural laws that have always been and will always be. there is no need to throw the baseless hypothesis of "creation" or "creator" in there.
"Traffic Laws" are LOGICAL deductions for what is necessary to regulate flow optimally and avoid collisions. Before "Traffic Laws" were employed for industrial applications, e.g. transportation, they are exhibited in nature, e.g. living cell, atoms, galactic and planetary systems, etc. Logic is parts and parcel of nature, hence are "Traffic Laws."
Vic, your version of Christianity isn't the same as other Christians, so to start off with the "We Christians believe..." is fallacious from the start. Your version is nice, but it's not widely shared by all.
Then ALL traffic laws are the same right Vic?
Oh wait...
Your "logic" lacks logic.
I wonder which parts of the bible I am to take seriously. It's a good thing The Supreme Ruler of the Universe is in the deity business. He can't write for beans.
What tells an atheist murder is wrong? An atheist can easily tell themselves murder is right and there's no consequence for taking another human's life. They claim they don't need a book to tell them that it's wrong yet who exactly tells them that it's wrong? Ding ding ding!!! PEOPLE like their parents so it's there's literally no difference. Atheism is a delusion of the mind. Seek help atheists.
Our evolved humanity tells everyone murder is wrong. It was then written into the bible, and pretty much all other religions as well. The fact that atheists are not running around murdering everyone attests to that.
."All flesh died that moved upon the earth."
God drowns everything that breathes air. From newborn babies to koala bears - all creatures great and small, the Lord God drowned them all. 7:21-23
It's ok for god to murder...
If you cannot have morality without your god, how did you determine your god was morally superior?
You can't trust your own morality, so why should we trust you when you say your god is moral?
It's funny when trolls advise others to seek help.
I wouldn't want to be murdered personally and I wouldn't want anyone I know to be murdered either. If that is a rule I want to have apply to me, it only stands to reason that I would play by that same rule with others.
If murder is always wrong, then God is just repeating this truism, and you really don't need God as a moral authority, right?
However, if murder is only wrong because God says so, then God could speak to you or all Christians tomorrow and say that it's now OK and you, being a loyal little robot, might just go killing people like they're modern-day Canaanites just to please your Lord.
So, tell me, are you just following orders in not murdering, or do you know for yourself that murder is wrong like we atheists do?
I'm sorry for anyone who has to rely on a Bible to tell them murder is wrong. I believe this is a bs statement...it doesn't matter if they are Christian or atheist, everyone who isn't a sociopathic monster knows that the act of taking a human life is inherently wrong.
"Murder" is a description of a type of killing. It already contains in its definition a negative moral/legal component. We (either individually or as a people) decide when the killing of another human is "murder" or not.
"Every living substance that I have made will I destroy."
God repeats his intention to kill "every living substance ... from off the face of the earth." But why does God kill all the innocent animals? What had they done to deserve his wrath? It seems God never gets his fill of tormenting animals. 7:4
Let's see who seem to arrive at the same conclusions on this issue as Salero and Theo, who obviously have the Bible shoved where the sun doesn't shine:
–Muslims, mostly those you practice strict Sharia law
–Assemblies of God (they try to take a neutral position, but effectively say it's good to go as far as the Bible is concerned; also the perhaps more fundamental Pentacostals outside the U.S. obviously see it as a tool to help shape the world the way they see fit).
–many evangelicals. Billy Graham, Evangelical religious leader, in an article t.itled "The Power of the Cross," published in the Apr. 2007 issue of Decision magazine wrote:
"God will not tolerate sin. He condemns it and demands payment for it. God could not remain a righteous God and compromise with sin. His holiness and His justice demand the death penalty."
–The National Association of Evangelicals
–The Southern Baptist Convention, of course.
–The Lutheran Church–Missouri Synod
Of course in some parts of the world, the Christian has become the judge and executioner. Evangelicals that have recently traveled from the U.S. to incite violence and the killing of others make the Salem witch trials look like a tea party.
Birds of a primitive feather flock together when it comes to their desire and for many, their claimed "right" to exercise control over the life of another.
♰♰♰ Jesus Christ Is Lord ♰♰♰
Matthew 7:12
"12 In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets." (NASB)
John 13:34
"34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another." (NASB)
If we applied the above two verses, there would be no murder crimes.
Early on:
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/05/01/why-christians-should-support-the-death-penalty/comment-page-1/#comment-3001323
It is part of our evolved bahaviorial traits as social animals. You should not need a book to tell you that murder is wrong. In fact, people knew it was wrong, and wrote it into the bible.
Jesus Christ is mythology.
Quoting the bible (or any other book) is only relevant to those who accept the authority (in this case, dubious) of the book
I used to watch a lot of those true-crime forensic shows. It's astonishing how many religious types, even pastors and preachers, kill their spouse because they fear the stigma they would face in church if they got divorced. One thing is certain. People who quote the bible and believe themselves good christians are no better than those who don't.
Most recently, Richard Shahan, a Baptist minister from Alabama.
Stabbed his wife to death and tried to flee the country to marry his boyfriend.
So much for christian morals.
Of this Christian, in any case.
Hypocrites suck.