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May 1st, 2014
09:15 AM ET
Why Christians should support the death penaltyOpinion by R. Albert Mohler Jr., Special to CNN (CNN) - The death penalty has been part of human society for millennia, understood to be the ultimate punishment for the most serious crimes. But, should Christians support the death penalty now, especially in light of the controversial execution Tuesday in Oklahoma? This is not an easy yes or no question. On the one hand, the Bible clearly calls for capital punishment in the case of intentional murder. In Genesis 9:6, God told Noah that the penalty for intentional murder should be death: “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image.” The death penalty was explicitly grounded in the fact that God made every individual human being in his own image, and thus an act of intentional murder is an assault upon human dignity and the very image of God. In the simplest form, the Bible condemns murder and calls for the death of the murderer. The one who intentionally takes life by murder forfeits the right to his own life. In the New Testament, the Apostle Paul instructs Christians that the government “does not bear the sword in vain.” Indeed, in this case the magistrate “is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the evildoer.” [Romans 13:4] On the other hand, the Bible raises a very high requirement for evidence in a case of capital murder. The act of murder must be confirmed and corroborated by the eyewitness testimony of accusers, and the society is to take every reasonable precaution to ensure that no one is punished unjustly. While the death penalty is allowed and even mandated in some cases, the Bible also reveals that not all who are guilty of murder and complicity in murder are executed. Just remember the biblical accounts concerning Moses, David and Saul, later known as Paul. Christian thinking about the death penalty must begin with the fact that the Bible envisions a society in which capital punishment for murder is sometimes necessary, but should be exceedingly rare. The Bible also affirms that the death penalty, rightly and justly applied, will have a powerful deterrent effect. In a world of violence, the death penalty is understood as a necessary firewall against the spread of further deadly violence. Seen in this light, the problem we face today is not with the death penalty, but with society at large. American society is quickly conforming to a secular worldview, and the clear sense of right and wrong that was Christianity’s gift to Western civilization is being replaced with a much more ambiguous morality. We have lost the cultural ability to declare murder – even mass murder – to be deserving of the death penalty. Oklahoma's botched lethal injection marks new front in battle over executions We have also robbed the death penalty of its deterrent power by allowing death penalty cases to languish for years in the legal system, often based on irrational and irrelevant appeals. While most Americans claim to believe that the death penalty should be supported, there is a wide disparity in how Americans of different states and regions think about the issue. Furthermore, Christians should be outraged at the economic and racial injustice in how the death penalty is applied. While the law itself is not prejudiced, the application of the death penalty often is. Opinion: End secrecy in lethal injections There is very little chance that a wealthy white murderer will ever be executed. There is a far greater likelihood that a poor African-American murderer will face execution. Why? Because the rich can afford massively expensive legal defense teams that can exhaust the ability of the prosecution to get a death penalty sentence. This is an outrage, and no Christian can support such a disparity. As the Bible warns, the rich must not be able to buy justice on their own terms. There is also the larger cultural context. We must recognize that our cultural loss of confidence in human dignity and the secularizing of human identity has made murder a less heinous crime in the minds of many Americans. Most would not admit this lower moral evaluation of murder, but our legal system is evidence that this is certainly true. We also face a frontal assault upon the death penalty that is driven by legal activists and others determined to bring legal execution to an end in America. Controversy over an execution this week in Oklahoma will bring even more attention to this cause, but most Americans will be completely unaware that this tragedy was caused by the inability of prison authorities to gain access to drugs for lethal injection that would have prevented those complications. Opponents of the death penalty have, by their legal and political action, accomplished what might seem at first to be impossible – they now demand action to correct a situation that they largely created. Their intention is to make the death penalty so horrifying in the public mind that support for executions would disappear. They have attacked every form of execution as “cruel and unusual punishment,” even though the Constitution itself authorizes the death penalty. It is a testament to moral insanity that they have successfully diverted attention from a murderer’s heinous crimes and instead put the death penalty on trial. Should Christians support the death penalty today? I believe that Christians should hope, pray and strive for a society in which the death penalty, rightly and rarely applied, would make moral sense. This would be a society in which there is every protection for the rights of the accused, and every assurance that the social status of the murderer will not determine the sentence for the crime. Christians should work to ensure that there can be no reasonable doubt that the accused is indeed guilty of the crime. We must pray for a society in which the motive behind capital punishment is justice, and not merely revenge. We must work for a society that will honor every single human being at every point of development and of every race and ethnicity as made in God’s image. We must hope for a society that will support and demand the execution of justice in order to protect the very existence of that society. We must pray for a society that rightly tempers justice with mercy. Should Christians support the death penalty today? I believe that we must, but with the considerations detailed above. At the same time, given the secularization of our culture and the moral confusion that this has brought, this issue is not so clear-cut as some might think. I do believe that the death penalty, though supported by the majority of Americans, may not long survive in this cultural context. Death penalty in the United States gradually declining It is one thing to support the death penalty. It is another thing altogether to explain it, fix it, administer it and sustain it with justice. We are about to find out if Americans have the determination to meet that challenge. Christians should take leadership to help our fellow citizens understand what is at stake. God affirmed the death penalty for murder as he made his affirmation of human dignity clear to Noah. Our job is to make it clear to our neighbors. R. Albert Mohler Jr. is president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. The views expressed in this column belong to Mohler.
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Why should Christians support the death penalty when eternal torture in the fires of hell is so much better?
This is not about revenge, this is about the "punishment fits the crime;" it is about naturally revealed "justice," hence the Law of the Land.
God's "Natural Law" is revealed in our hearts, we know it before we even speak it out loud. We know "justice" in our hearts.
God forgives the believer and forgets all of his/her sins, and in this lifetime, "Natural Law" takes its normal course, of which is "justice" concerning human-to-human affairs.
Wait are you saying that you don't "feel" justice is eternal torture in the fires of hell?
"God's "Natural Law" is revealed in our hearts, we know it before we even speak it out loud. We know "justice" in our hearts"
You know, Vic, saying it again (and again, and again) doesn't make it any less absurd
Vic
You imagine a great deal of what your god wants. Too bad it is only in your imaginination. In reality, you do not knpw if there are any gods, or what they want. All you have is men TELLING you what to believe, men TELLING you about the god they want you to beleive in.
As Deist Christians, the first five presidents including John Adams, James Madison & Thomas Jefferson were likely to have quite a different notion of God than the Christian God of today. Deist Christians may have followed Christ's teachings, but usually refuted the divinity of Christ. It is important to note that Deists generally did not believe in a personal Creator; that such a god played an active role in people's lives. They were always ready to call out on the dark side of organized religion:
"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved – the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced! With the rational respect that is due to it, knavish priests have added prostitutions of it, that fill or might fill the blackest and bloodiest pages of human history. "
(John Adams, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson, 09/03/1816)
"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth. "
(Thomas Jefferson, from Notes on the State of Virginia, 1785)
Obviously Deism played an important part in the lives of the key framers who wrote the Constitution and its initial set of Amendments that we live by in the U.S.
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."
(James Madison, chief architect of the U.S. Constitution & eleven of the Amendments including the Bill of Rights – from A Memorial and Remonstrance as delivered to the Virginia General Assembly in 1785.)
John Tyler, the 10th POTUS was a Deist Christian.
Many believe Abraham Lincoln was a Deist.
John Remsburg, in his book Six Historic Americans (1906), cites several of Lincoln's close associates:
'After his assassination Mrs. Lincoln said: "Mr. Lincoln had no hope and no faith in the usual acceptance of these words." His lifelong friend and executor, Judge David Davis, affirmed the same: "He had no faith in the Christian sense of the term." His biographer, Colonel Lamon, intimately acquainted with him in Illinois, and with him during all the years that he lived in Washington, says: "Never in all that time did he let fall from his lips or his pen an expression which remotely implied the slightest faith in Jesus as the son of God and the Savior of men."'
The Deistic side of John Adams comes out strong in these paragraphs A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America (1787-1788)
"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.
Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."
William Howard Taft, the only U.S. President to also hold the office of Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court:
"I do not believe in the divinity of Christ, and there are many other of the postulates of the orthodox creed to which I cannot subscribe."
Doris
"In 1796, Adams denounced political opponent Thomas Paine's Deistic criticisms of Christianity in The Age of Reason, saying, "The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity, let the Blackguard Paine say what he will."
I do not think you could conclude he was a deist
There was much on the cusp, fred, when it came to different key figures and their beliefs. You could say the same perhaps for Franklin. It is important to note the dates, but more so I think it is important to note the difference between when one of these politicians is speaking in public about another versus writing an opinion versus their expression in law. I think that Adams, like Madison and Jefferson, was obviously heavily influenced by Deism – more so as their careers progressed. As politicians, they couldn't very well throw their more fundamental const.ituency overboard, so I think you'll find their more public statements more reflective of that of their supporters.
Madison actually felt near the end of his life that the implementation of separation of church and state was not strict enough. He wrote that chaplains for congress should not be on the public bill.
"The Hebrews have done more to civilize men than any other nation. If I were an atheist, and believed blind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate had ordained the Jews to be the most essential instrument for civilizing the nations."
John Adams
Doris
Although not biblical one of my thoughts would be eternity may just give me enough time to see what was really going on with some of these great leaders. I know Solomon said the world is full of endless books but you will not find the answer there, yet it would sure be great to have an endless period of time to read them all. Perhaps hell is having an eternity to read all those books then realizing your reading glasses were left behind on the night stand.
" Perhaps hell is having an eternity to read all those books then realizing your reading glasses were left behind on the night stand."
That was a good episode of Twilight Zone.
midwest rail
My favorite was the kid who fell through a time dimension hole in her bedroom. Hearing he dog barking she followed the sound. She got out just before the wall closed up.
I now make it my earnest prayer that God would… most graciously be pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility, and pacific temper of the mind which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion.124
George Washington 1st US President
Did you mistake that for evidence of a god?
No Christian religion is what made this Country a reality
Nonsense. Infighting amongst fundamentalist Christians almost made the U.S. a non-reality. It was the Deists that had to get people to try to move past their stupid ideological differences; to unite and show England that we could work and trade as one. You have to remember that Jefferson, Madison, etc. witnessed religious persecution going on right in their home states. Without the push toward a secular government it's likely there never would have been the kind of unification that kept the Brits at bay when they saw disarray here.
That's not true.
Did you know that Christians killed each other over their definitions of Christianity in the Colonial period?
Look up Battle of the Severn.
The reason the separation of state was so important is that is solved the problem that the colonies had – they couldn't agree on what the "right" religion should be for the new country. So they picked the best answer – none of the above.
We have a government "of the people" not "by the grace of God almighty".
I check in in the morning before work, sometimes at lunch if I can and when I get home from work 2 or 3 nights a week. I'll read a few comments and make a few. But of late it seems Justpro is about every other post and his post times range all day long.
Do you do anything constructive or have you decided to try and earn your way into heaven by battling the invisible beasts on the internet trying to convert them? And when you whine about atheists on the blog as if they don't have any beliefs to share, who do you think Christ would have been wanting to speak with? Did he go to the temple every day to preach? No, he went to the wh0res and tax collectors and the faithless with his message. You act as if you wish you never had to communicate with the outside world from your insular little christian compound. Many other devout Christians can chat with we non-believers and have constructive conversations without attacking each other personally. You'll likely find your comments only get trashed on when you make trollish comments that beg for a stomping because they are so full of feces.
If you are just a giggling troll then all I can say is "Well played..."
I am on a double shift today, so I'm on a lot. What I've observed is that when finisher leaves, justpro arrives, and they both share the same illogical use of logic.
If they're not the same person, they're closely related.
I was going to say earlier that justpro seemed to be:
2 parts John Talbert (or Tolbert or something like that – this guy who said he was a civil engineer and just spewed all the time on evolution), and
2 part thefinisher1
parts, not part; lol – and it only needs to be one part of each – I was thinking of throwing in a dash of someone older-sounding.
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion...
Excerpt from the Treaty of Tripoli, George Washington, 1st U.S. President
That was make believe BS
Thomas Jefferson
SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE; DIPLOMAT; GOVERNOR OF VIRGINIA; SECRETARY OF STATE; THIRD PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES
The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man.63
The practice of morality being necessary for the well being of society, He [God] has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral principles of Jesus and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses.64
I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others.65
I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ.66
You mean the same Thomas Jefferson who re-wrote the bible to exclude all the supernatural BS and spoke about how the Christian theology of the "Trinity" is absurd garbage?
All that is hogwash
The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814
Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Adrian Van der Kemp, 30 July, 1816
@justpro86,
What is hogwash?
"Jefferson produced the 84-page volume in 1820—six years before he died at age 83—bound it in red leather and ti[]tled it The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth. He had pored over six copies of the New Testament, in Greek, Latin, French and King James English."
"The second of the two biblical texts he produced is on display through May 28 at the Albert H. Small Doc[]uments Gallery of the Smithsonian National Museum of American History (NMAH) after a year of extensive repair and conservation. "
Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/how-thomas-jefferson-created-his-own-bible-5659505/#HAGhP5bskcx7BkVp.99
Give the gift of Smithsonian magazine for only $12! http://bit.ly/1cGUiGv
Follow us: @SmithsonianMag on Twitter
Hey, lets not go ruining all of Justpros preconceived notions with all these facts and shlt.
You should get your history lessons somewhere other than from your fundamentalist preacher.
LOL I practically got my lessons correct... This nation was founded on the Christian world view
Not at all, many were deist. That is not Christian at all.
justpro doesn't understand what he read because it was taken out of context.
When Jefferson wrote to Adams he was writing to someone who agreed with much of what he believed. John Adams founded the Deist movement at Harvard, and in one of her letters to John in France, Abigail said "John, I know you wanted the children and I to attend the Congregationalist Church in your absence, but the "Three in One God" makes no more sense now than it did to us long ago.
♰♰♰ Jesus Christ Is Lord ♰♰♰
God Bless The USA
AMEN
Jesus Christ is mythology
@justpro86,
please put the books by David Barton back on the bookshelf and walk away. They are dangerously misinforming.
The letter to Benjamin Rush, from which your quote is from, was written in 1803 while Jefferson was President.
During the election cycle of 1800, Jefferson had to defend accusations by political opponents that he was an atheist. (Actually the word used was "infidel".) As a politician, he spent a lot of time in the campaign and during next couple of years as President essentially denying that he was an atheist.
Unlike Jefferson, Benjamin Rush was an example of a very religious founding father. Jefferson wrote to him to share a essay he wrote called "Syllabus of an Estimate of the Merit of the Doctrines of Jesus". You have to weigh just how much this was politically motivated before assuming this is the 'truth' of Jefferson's 'heart'.
Your quote is stripped out of all context and given the situation at the time, it cannot be measured at face value.
justp
proven liar and theif, stole this particular post from
http://thestoryoflibertyblog.com
LOL moron who cares I posted facts
But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782
More made up crap by secularists
The quote I provided was included in a book that Jefferson wrote called "Notes on the State of Virginia". It was published in 1785. That kind of makes it fact on record.
Here is another gem:
Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787
Pretty much Jefferson did believe in a super being but he did follow the teachings of Jesus. Jefferson was pretty much in a sect with himself.. So no matter what he followed the teachings of Jesus even though his beliefs were not direct with the Christian world view they were still pretty aligned together... Jefferson Did claim to be a TRUE CHRISTIAN however after cutting and pasting Jesus' doctrines from the bible onto a blank paper in order that they were taugh..
Thomas Jefferson said he was a true Christian by stating that makes Jefferson a hypocrite and his words lose credibility
Jefferson was a deist at best and he was openly hostile toward christianity. He actually took his bible and cut out all references to miracles and the impossible. He would love you.
No he was not he even said he was a Christian... So are you saying Jefferson was a sham and a two face?
Congress, 1854
The great, vital, and conservative element in our system is the belief of our people in the pure doctrines and the divine truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ
Where is that in our Constitution again?
"Congress, 1854"
Wow...that tells me nothing. You are just like the multi.tudes of other Christians who are willing to spin and misrepresent information in an effort to spread your manure...I am not impressed.
Not spin just direct quotes... Sorry to disapoint there was a time when Christianity was the foundation the Founders built this nation upon
Do you mean that in that year the whole of Congress produced those lines?
yes
You're misinformed – as you are on many topics.
Something tells me this is the wako who once argued with me that the Mayflower Compact was more important to us today than the Const.itution.
@justpro86,
The citation given on the Wallbuilder's site (http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755#FN24) for that quotation is "ournal of the House of the Representatives of the United States of America (Washington, DC: Cornelius Wendell, 1855), 34th Cong., 1st Sess., p. 354, "
Which basically means that it was a statement made by a representative in the House during a session of Congress, NOT that it was agreed to by all of the House, let alone all of Congress. Your quote is misleading, cherry-picking, and disingenuous.
My hopes of a future life are all founded upon the Gospel of Christ and I cannot cavil or quibble away [evade or object to]. . . . the whole tenor of His conduct by which He sometimes positively asserted and at others countenances [permits] His disciples in asserting that He was God.6
The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the Divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made “bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God” [Isaiah 52:10]
Where is that in our Bill of Rights?
There are 5 references of God in the Declaration of Independence
So? The Declaration of Independence did not found our laws. And the references are not to a Christian god.
If you are going to keep plagiarizing other peoples words and not giving reference would you please remove the foot note references from the stolen text. I am getting embarrassed for you.
the was copied from http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=8755
I don't need to state where I got the quotes from moron... I did not plagiarize nothing... The words I posted I posted the one who made the quote... So I am in the total right
I have never seen you credit an author. What I have seen is repeated plagiarism and when called on it, your flat denial that you copied anything insinuating it was your own work.
It is all in the written record.
whatever all I post on are facts DEAL WITH IT
"The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity" Samuel Adams
Thank Sam Adams finally someone with some intelligence around here
That was John Adams, you moron.
He also had a dog named Satan.
So what?
One of the founders of this great nation who also like Sam Adams believed in God... And built this nation under the Christian laws and the Laws of Nature Gods laws
Except you attributed a John Adams quote to Sam. I'm aware of who Sam Adams. How about actually quoting him?
I think "Sam Adams" made beer, not a nation. John Adams was a deist and founded the Deist society at Harvard. Neither he nor his wife believed in the Trinity so theu were not Christians at all.
"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved — the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" – John Adams
See ... I can cherry pick quotes out of context too! I even removed a bit to disguise what he really meant. Isn't that cool?
Apparently Atheists lack common sense. This is a Christian blog...A blog that contains every religion but which religion does this blog usually talks about? Christianity and yet here they are trolling and rolling thinking they sound smart but only proving their immaturity
Contradict yourself much pops? Try a decongestant and an enema and then we'll see if you still can make any sense.
LOL one should talk
This is a Belief Blog, not a Christian blog.
You show your extreme predjudice against other faiths when you try to steal something that isn't yours...but you already know that, being well versed in stealing other people's work and presenting it as your own.
right .. like the incredibly long cut and paste science fiction piece by one mr colin, actually a bit entertaining; the image of all the nose-ear-hairs of the past sitting down to contrive their deceive. "what did you call that one in Africa Horace? a Troglodite?" "and what age did he live in?" "oh now wait, that bone we picked up in South America is not going to work" This is all good fun but without a worldwide flood to wipe out all the raptors and other monstrously large prehistoric predators how did the lowly elephant take their place? are why if mankind has been here all this time are they called "prehistoric"? why don't we have an oral passdown on these "dinosaurs"? why do we only see representations of antelope and deer on cave walls? yeah, I've read some science-fiction books myself but that doesn't make me a believer. You God-haters make me laugh. Very entertaining. Keep up the wonderful stories you tell. I'm loving it.
My goodness your questions are absurd. You and Theo should get a room and see if you can both figure out a way to boil water.
Did you look at the top of the page – where it says "CNN Belief Blog"? As you've been told many times, this is not a christian blog.
justp
"This is a Christian blog"
No it is not ...lying again I see. It is a belief blog.
Wow the same Atheists are still on for many hours wasting their friday away posting on a blog for Christians.... This is hilarious if you don't believe don't waste your time there are a lot more news on CNN to comment on but nope your still stuck trying your darnest to look stupid.
Can you post some more plagiarized items? Thanks.
LOL can you post more ignorant posts.... I heard its nice outside maybe you should go build a sandcastle and have a nice time in the park with your mom and dad... Yeesh Kids these days
Maybe you should slap on some fresh Depends and check out the outside yourself. Maybe the fresh air will dry up some of the dung between your ears and you'll realize how stupid you sound claiming this is a blog for Christians.
Oh! That was very original. The LOL was especially cute.
As you've been told before, but neglected to understand, this isn't a Christian blog.
Maybe c/p others people's hard work has made your brain atrophy, and incapable of learning anything new.
Yes it is what is this topic about? A question for Christians... Besides Atheists don't believe in anything
Oh I am sorry yes they do its called stupid theories
It's an article about the DP that involves a Christian author. That is on a Belief Blog. That isn't a Christian blog.
Are you saying you have no opinions on anything that doesn't affect you directly?
And that you don't comment on anything unless it does?
"a blog for Christians"
Lol – try again dufus.
Opposing the scourge that is CHristianity is never a waste of time.
LOL Christianity is what this country was founded on
Then maybe you would like to explain why Jesus or Christianity is never mentioned in any of our founding docu.ments....
Keep lying to yourself and others...it just proves my point.
Declaration of Independance reference God 5 times
And referenced the CHristian god zero times.
slavery is what this country was founded on, justpro
We are all slaves to society no matter what...
LOL. They referred to "Nature's God." Sounds wiccan to me.
This is a belief blog not a christian blog – hence the name CNN Belief Blog.
Yes however Christianity is often discussed and if you don't believe why bother? Guess trollin is all you got to do for today
Yep and we are disussing why Christianity is BS....so what's the problem?
How is it trolling to correct your errors?
These aren't typical atheists you are dealing with. Luckily most aren't like the ones that spend all day searching out Christians to troll.
Naturally, what justpro neglected to mention is that he has been on all day as well. And the non-believers are not the only ones who troll here.
I've been guilty of posting on here all day, too. It is a waste of time for me. There are usually better things for me to do.
This is true
Wilbur,
I agree with you. Our focus should be the gospel.
Jesus taught the gospel of the kingdom of heaven.This gospel was the subject of most of His parables.
The kingdom of God is a literal (one world ruling) government which will be fully realized after the 4th earthly kingdom has ended.
Jesus was born to be a King. He is our King of kings and Lord of lords. The kingdom of God is our inheritance and it is Father's delight to give us the kingdom.
When you are born-again, you are born into the kingdom of God. (one must be "born-again" b/c flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom)
The gospel is not just for mankind; it is for the entire creation (look around, even right now creation is groaning for the manifestation of the sons of God).
Only when we know our true identi.ty as joint heirs with Christ Jesus will we come into our inheritance of being "destined to reign" with Christ.
"The kingdom of God is a literal (one world ruling) government which will be fully realized after the 4th earthly kingdom has ended."
Does anyone even know where any of those rings are supposed to be hidden. I think the elves have one, right?
he who knows not, and knows not he knows not, he's a ...... teach him.
Peace.
@ new-man:
she's got a point. not all Bible-believing Christians are premillenial dispensationalists (as you appear to be). believing in the biblical "kingdom of God" does not require believing one should read apocalyptic sections of Scripture as though they are narratives.
kingdom = king's domain
why not just say something like "wherever Christ reigns", which one day will be everywhere (Php.2:10-11)?
Russ,
thanks for your point.
as I mentioned, when a person is born-again they're born into the kingdom of heaven. this therefore means that Christ dwelling in a believer right now, that believer is currently living the kingdom of God. those who are bold enough to say it, can do so as I do, I am not of this world. I am of God. Christ dwells in me and I dwell in Him.
Yes, there is a 2nd coming, but the kingdom of heaven is also for now. we're called to demonstrate the kingdom... how does one do that if they do not dwell within the kingdom.
newman: "those who are bold enough to say it, can do so as I do, I am not of this world."
Oh goodness. I'd appreciate it if you could post in advance where you will be if you're on the road. I'll want to know so I can stay off of those particular highways.
"the kingdom of God does not come by observation, but by revelation. we (the church/body of Christ) are a government body.
Eclesia – church. means called out ones or elected ones or people that are part of a governing body.
2Cor 5:0 we are ambassadors (we're not part of that nation; we're representatives of the gov't of heaven, sent into the kingdoms of the world)
we're to take back what belongs to the kingdom of God, and one of the things that belong to the the kingdom of God is the earth."
The complete gospel is not just the Word; it is the manifestation of the word in the eyes and ears (lives) of those who hear it. Or as I like to say, it is living the kingdom.
So the kingdom of God is not just for the future, it is for NOW.
"the kingdom of God does not come by observation, but by revelation"
Yes, I understand – like if you were to go off to an island and smoke a lot of herb and then write down everything you see. It would just be one big Revelation.
"... it is living the kingdom."
When do the majority of your fellow evangelicals plan on starting ?
'Speaking at the Pastor for Life Luncheon, which was sponsored by Pro-Life Mississippi, Chief Justice Roy Moore of the Alabama Supreme Court declared that the First Amendment only applies to Christians because “Buddha didn’t create us, Mohammed didn’t create us, it was the God of the Holy Scriptures” who created us.'
Oh my – Theo Phileoism is spreading....
How the hell does this guy even qualified to be a judge??
The 1st Amendment applies to all citizens of the US. This guy should be thrown off the bench.
If we are all born "atheist" like atheists claim, that means prisons are filled with atheists. Seems like atheism is naturally evil.
This and your similar argument about wars have got to be the lamest arguments ever on this blog. Maybe you're just a poe. So let's see your statistics on babies in prison.
You atheist claim that our "natural state" is atheist. That means people aren't really "religious" and thus atheism MUST be blamed for all the evil that happen. Grow up atheists. It's time to face the facts. Your atheism is naturally evil.
A request was given. What are the statistics of babies in prison?
No matter how you twist it, you can't fix stupid.
Never mentioned anything about "babies". Having a reading problem, are we?
You were born an adult?
Apparently the atheists, by and large, don't become criminals until after they convert to Christianity, which is the jails are full of Christians.
And you believe criminals because? If you atheists are filled with "logic" or "reason", where is it? You will snoop so low that you will believe criminals to have an attack made? You people are friggin' nuts and should be placed in the insane asylum!
Joey
That's a logical fallacy
Topher, so was finisher's OP.
Wrong. Atheists made the claim. I applied it logically to reality. It's ok. The truth is very hard to accept sometimes when you believe something false.
Wrong. Your OP was a strawman.
Atheists make that claim that we are all born atheists. I applied that LOGICALLY to reality. Did I smash your childish fantasy? Awwwww!!!
I'm not an atheist, so you didn't do anything except show that you do t know what a strawman is.
That claim has nothing to do with your follow up "that means prisons are filled with atheists."
Most atheists think all religions are false, so it's logical to state their view, all people are born atheists, means no one is "religious" and atheism should be blamed for all the evil that's done in this world. Instead of blaming religion, I reverse it and blame atheism.
The atheist delusion is smashed. Grow up atheists.
You've built another strawman. You're getting quite good at it.
Atheists think they get off scott–free and can blame anything on religion. Ha! The stupidity of today's atheists is so funny to mock! My sides! 😊☺️😄😃😄☺️☺️😃😃😃😄😄
Maybe we are judging "thefinisher1" too harshly. Apparently he has not learned much since birth. This might explain this strange rationale.
Logical fallacy? Most of the people in jail claim they are Christians, who am I to tell them they are not? I don't even know them, so all I can do is take their word for it.
Strange rationale? LOL!!!! Atheists make the claim and as a said many times, I applied it logically. Grow up.
Logically? Lol. As has been said here many times before: "boring troll is boring".
Childish baby troll is still a childish baby troll. Do you like plugging when your ears when you hate hearing the truth? D'awwww!!!!
Yes. Everyone gets that you hate atheists.
Doesn't negate that your OP was a strawman.
Who said anything about me hating atheists? Are you blind or just stupid? I don't hate atheists. It's called not taking your cr@.p.
Oh. From the tone of your posts, it looked that way.
Your OP was a strawman. If by "not taking your crap" means lying, okay.
Someone wake me up if this nutcase ever comes up with a real argument. I doubt we'll see one.
Wrong. Totally wrong. Straw man? Nope. I have said MULTIPLE times what I did. Your childish brain won't let you see it.
Logic and reason not your strong suit then?
It’s called not taking your cr@.p.
Whose crap?
If we are all born “atheist” like atheists claim, has nothing to do with your conclusion that means prisons are filled with atheists.
This is a classic example of a strawman.
The Southern Baptists split from the 'other' baptists because they refused to give up slavery.
I will never look to this group for moral guidance.
These people should learn about compassion from St. Francis
Lord, make me an instrument of Your peace;
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;
Where there is injury, pardon;
Where there is error, truth;
Where there is doubt, faith;
Where there is despair, hope;
Where there is darkness, light;
And where there is sadness, joy.
O Divine Master, Grant that I may not so much seek
To be consoled as to console;
To be understood as to understand;
To be loved as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive;
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned;
And it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
It is high time that Baptists learn about compassion from the Catholics.
I can do that when the papists lay aside such false doctrine such as justification follows sanctification rather than what the Bible says that sanctification follows justification. (Ephesians 2:8-9)
I can do that when Catholics lay aside every other source of truth except the Bible (Colossians 2:8, 1 Corinthians 4:6, 2 Timothy 3:14-17, Colossians 2:18-19, Galatians 1:6-10, Psalm 19:7, Revelation 22:18-19)
You sound like someone who is into 'theology'.
Nothing wrong with theology, but you have strayed far away from the gospel by shifting the focus on "your" theology.
Can't help but notice, justification, sanctification, purification....
My, my, my head hurts bad, when I read all about your "fications"
"Nothing wrong with theology, but you have strayed far away from the gospel by shifting the focus on "your" theology."
-----------
Huh? Without theology, we don't have the gospel... And it isn't "my" theology, it is the theology gained by a plain reading of the text.
It is your interpretation, Theo, whether you'd care to admit it or not.
Well done once again Theo. Ctrl C + Ctrl V is your calling.
Please provide one verse from the Bible that says a person is saved by theology and not by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
"It is your interpretation, Theo, whether you'd care to admit it or not."
-------------
You're joking, right? OK, I'll tell you what. You read Ephesians 2:8-9, and then you tell me how someone can justify adding works to salvation.
"Please provide one verse from the Bible that says a person is saved by theology and not by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ."
--------------
Theology is simply "the study of God." If someone has no study of God whatsoever, then they will have no knowledge of the gospel.
2 John 1:9 – Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son
One more thing, you have to learn to target your audience.
The belief blog is mostly frequented by Hindus , do you realize how confusing your comments are to them?
Ask yourself that question.
"Well done once again Theo. Ctrl C + Ctrl V is your calling."
-------------
Which is more offensive to you? That I can use "copy and paste" or that I know WHAT to copy and paste?
So Theo, since Paul's testimony regarding the Gospels is hearsay, why should we believe anything at all that he wrote? Why is his (and his side-kick Luke's) testimony any more valid than say Joseph Smith?
"Ask yourself that question."
---------------
I was not aware of the amount of Hindus supposedly on the blog. Do I then need to give a clear presentation of the gospel? (This may take up a bit of real estate in here though...)
"So Theo, since Paul's testimony regarding the Gospels is hearsay, why should we believe anything at all that he wrote? Why is his (and his side-kick Luke's) testimony any more valid than say Joseph Smith?"
------------------------–
Simple, because either you have not studied and have fallen victim to the whims of atheist's websites, or you are purposefully being deceptive, like Bart Ehrman.
Well start with why we should think something authored anonymously should be considered valid. Then you can get around to my concerns about Paul. We'll deal with faux-Peter after that.
Theo,
"Theology is simply "the study of God.""
Actually, theology is the study of god(s) – small 'g' (or even goddesses).
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B8%CE%B5%CF%8C%CF%82
Akira, I'm waiting...
I would take commenting here seriously, some of the souls need to presented with the truth.
All *your* theological mumbo jumbo is not going to win any souls for Christ.
Unless, you take this casually and are not really interested in winning souls for Christ, continue to do what you are doing.
I am accountable for my comments to God and so are you, especially if you claim to be a Christian.
You're dancing around the question, Theo.
"Actually, theology is the study of god(s) – small 'g' (or even goddesses)."
------------
That's ONE of the definitions for sure. But even Webster knew that Theology professors of Christian insti.tutions refer to ONE God.
Wilbur
So tell me what you would have me do...
"That's ONE of the definitions for sure. But even Webster knew that Theology professors of Christian insti.tutions refer to ONE God."
Sorry, Theo, but your answer was already marked incorrect. You can take the test again tomorrow, but based on your track record.....
Waiting for what? My original statement was meant for your initial answer to Wilbur. It still holds true; your interpretation of the Bible is yours, just as Wilbur's is his. Not of that particular verse itself, but the Bible in it's entirety.
You knew perfectly well what I meant, yet you chose to be disingenuous.
a) Pray before you start commenting,
b) Know your audience, this belief blog is frequented by non Christians more than atheists. Your message should focus on the gospel.
c) This is not a forum to discuss theology, discuss theology in a Church small group setting or Bible study group.
Why SHOULDN'T we discuss theology here?
Hey Theo and the Gang –
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/04/30/bill-nye-the-science-guy-has-no-patience-for-your-candy-assed-science-illiteracy/
lol – wonderful link address, Science...
It's 4:30. Theo must be off the work computer and has left for the day.
Better yet, learn from the Amish.
Great prayer. It was written for him, not by him though.
It is to be noted further that the alleged errors have been for the most part trivial. In no cases have important doctrines or important historical events been in question.
Well that is just not true, there are plenty of people who question whether Jesus actually came back from the dead or not, and that is certainly an important doctrine for Christianity.
HOWEVER>.there is no error in Jesus coming back from the dead
The ONLY error in Jesus coming back from the dead is that he didn't. Other than that it is accurate.
where is his body...why didn't anyone show them where he was to quell the preaching? after all..the Jews wanted him dead so as to stop the new movement..so to say.....
Kermit, what you are failing to take into consideration is that people don't come from the dead. Therefore he did not die on the cross or he did and stayed dead. Because that is what happens to people; they die and stay dead. That is reality.
DUH..I KNOW that people don't normally come from the dead! this is no mere human.....and also you pretty much don't believein miracles....I do.......there is NO evidence Jesus died and stayed dead..there is NO body to shut the preachers up...to stop the people from spreading the Gospels...there was NO writings saying it did not happen
Kermi, miss piggy is calling. There is no REAL proof that your Jesus lived. If he did, big IF, then he would have been thrown into a smouldering pit, or the wild dogs would have got to it after it rotted
again they could have brought the body LONG before that....it takes quite a long time for body to rot..and the FACTis..the church started growing right after His death and resurrection..Jesus did live...those who doubt make a mockery of history
My guess is his body is buried in a mass grave somewhere. A place where the Romans put the bodies of the people they executed, as I highly doubt they returned them so that the families could bury them.
that was a guess..and against eyewitnesses saying Jospeh put Jesus in His tomb...and again..the authorities could get the body to quell the preaching
I would completely disagree.
Well, actually, there is a plethora of problems, not least of which is the inconsistencies between the only two original gospels that record the alleged event. I think you would agree with me that MArk and John's versions are later additions to their gospels inserted centuries later, right?
There's 2 separate topics; 1. Social policy around the death penalty, and 2. The religious implications.
1. The social policy boils down to practical concerns. Since the guilt determination phase is imperfect (fact), the sentence of death must get relegated only to cases where the guilt, intent, and mental heath are certain. While it is theoretically possible to have such a case, I expect them to be extremely rare.
So the practical question is, 'Does it make sense to have that sentence at all if it is so rare?'. If there was a deterrent effect of having the sentence on the books, perhaps. The problem is, the sentence could also have the opposite effect, a desperate killer having nothing more to lose kills more people in an all out attempt to escape. Since a moral death sentence would be so rare, and the benefits of having it on the books so tenuous, I would not support having it at all.
2. Given the inability of humans to reach certain verdicts, and the irreversibility of a death sentence, it should not be supported by any moral system, much less a religious system that purports to have a just and loving God. It's worse if the God is purported omniscient. In that case, the God knows human's limitations and should immediately preclude death sentencing in favor of its own final judgement.
Mr. Mohler raising the profile of the biblical death sentence being delegated to humans by God shines a light on another biblical contradiction and another biblical immoral element.
No contradiction at all sir. He is holy and just in decreeing this and you need to be very careful to not challenge Him for you will without a doubt regret it.
God does not decree the death penalty here in the US.
I think when we address all of the problems with the U.S. prison system, we can have a more clear view of the DP. Prisons for profit, overcrowding, over-sentencing, etc. With more prison resources in a not for profit situation, life sentences could be carried out less expensively. The DP too.
I was just telling scot that his post has nothing to do with the DP in the US; he seemed to think that God did.
The contradiction is in Genesis, where Abraham pushes God God's intent to destroy a city. Abraham asked, what if there are some righteous people there? God says he won't destroy the city if they are there, God will allow the guilty to persist for the sake of very few righteous. That is an advanced theory of justice. It is not compatible with the same god delegating death sentence to humans with limited understanding and poor motivations.
I always laugh when a Christian threatens you with the "God will get you" nonsense. To a non believer, that is about as threatening as them saying they will have the monster in our cupboard get us. lol
I am worried about Thor striking me down with a lightning bolt though ; )
These poor people like awanderingscot actually live their entire lives based on this Dark Ages voodoo. I feel sorry for them. It would be like never outgrowing being scared of the dark.
Being afraid of the dark is rational, being afraid of imaginary beings is not.
Agreed. In some ways our species is hard wired for irrational beyhavior
Not only is not threatening, it is very revealing. Sure, some Christians preach/speak of hell out a misguided sense of compassioinate concern. But there are others, like awanderingscot, who seem to take glee in the belief that we will forever be punished.
awanderingscot has been dodging my challenge to present evidence for his creationist view of the Universe. He has none, so he just defaults to trying to poke holes in other theories.
Typical fallacy. "By disproving your idea I prove mine."
God's "Natural Law" is revealed in our hearts, we know it before we even speak it out loud. We know "justice" in our hearts.
This is about the "punishment fits the crime;" it is about naturally revealed "justice," hence the Law of the Land.
And when a not guilty person is convicted and sentenced to death by imperfect humans?
So you are for the death penalty, yes?
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/05/01/why-christians-should-support-the-death-penalty/comment-page-5/#comment-3002230
Can you just answer a direct question? It's simple, Vic. Yes or no? Sometimes? I am not going on a wild goose chase.
I believe the Capital Punishment, aka Death Penalty, is the ONLY that fits the murder crime.
So death penalty in murder cases only?
The Capital Punishment, aka Death Penalty, is called for ONLY in murder cases, no other crime is punished by the it!
To All:
Please DO NOT confuse the Mosaic Law with the Law of the Land.
@TOPHER
Did you or did you not actually (not in your imagination) murder someone? Yes or no.
Follow up question: Was it an abortion that you consented to?
I broke the commandment not to murder by hating many people ... which Christ equates to murder.
And no, I've never been involved with an abortion.
So the answer is, you have NOT murdered anyone. You are a liar.
Topher
That is an evasive answer did you kill another human being? Yes or no?
I answered it clearly. And I didn't lie.
Concert,
Here's what Topher means:
Matthew 5:21-22 – “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
1 John 3:15 – Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
Topher, you haven't murdered anybody and you know it. You are just being dramatic and ridiculous. From now on when you say you are a murderer I will know you are being dishonest.
Theo, your copy and paste skills continue to be outstanding.
Topher and Theo
You are both in need of psychiatric care. Topher your non answer is just your cowardly way of living with your self. You come across as an ex- Grand Dragon of the KKK, redeemed by the Baptists. Theo your bible verses are just plain ridiculous and pathetic, how can you believe such BS?
Apple
Believe what you want, but according to the Bible I have murdered people in my heart and would be judged accordingly if my sins hadn't already been paid for.
"Theo your bible verses are just plain ridiculous and pathetic, how can you believe...?
-------------
I'll answer that if you explain how you can be a monkey's uncle.
T, believe what you wish. It is your life my friend. -Apple
Thank you. I will.
Theo
If this were a theocracy run by fanatics like you using those verses as a definition of murder 3 quarters of the people would be on death row. Reality and your biblical believes are not compatible. A monkeys uncle would be the brother of the father of the junior monkey, how stupid are you?
This is the type of crap that makes me not bother to try to have a honest discussion with you.
No one died. Therefore you are exagerating GREATLY when you say you murdered.
Who can say that the death penalty isn't doing these people a favor. I am against the death penalty because I don't them to get off so easy. They should suffer in prison.
Egg
Topher is a murderer, he told me so.
I have followed that. Who the heck did he murder??
Egg
Ask him, I guess. This phoney comes across as holier than thou while preaching from a pedestal of guilt, it just p!sses me off.
i don't think gopher means he literally murdered someone. perhaps he thought of it, and his comic book convinced him it is the same as actually doing it
Egg
Just a guess but I would not be surprised if he consented to an abortion at one time or another and thus considers himself a murder in the eyes of his crazy baptist cult but not by the state, but who knows what goes on in the minds of the severely deluded.
That is also what I think. That makes me a murderer too I am afraid.
Egg
Only in a fundies mind.
topher is too much of a coward to take his due punishment, hence the need for salvation
sam stone
To say I admired your blunt to the point posts, hence the usurping of your handle, is an understatement. I had planned to fill in for your when you were not on the blog and have been doing so. Hope you don't mind.
Did you take you name from a John Prine song?
i took the nickname after serving in the conflict overseas
i am blunt because folks like gopher and corn pone do not deserve any better. they are cowards
"the jews deseved the holocaust" – corn pone
"death is unnatural" – gopher
those are two examples. there are many, many more
And the time that i served, has shattered all my nerves, and left a little shrapnel in my knee
both of them illustrate why evangelicals should be publically ridiculed
I thought you were pro DP Egg? Change of heart?
Yesterday I really gave the issue some thought. So yes, perhaps a bit of a change of heart. There are still cases where the DP would be appropriate though, in my opinion.
Like I stated yesterday, I'm conflicted about the subject.
In the case of McVeigh, it was clearly indicated he was guilty and he wanted to die.
There have been, otoh, many death row inmates who have been exonerated by DNA...and there are probably many more out there where DNA had exonerated but due to flaws in the judicial system, that evidence was never heard.
I dunno.
justpro86: "Aww poor atheist wasting her time on a christian blog".
This as bad as the troll that used to try to tell Doc V. that he had no right to post here since he's Canadian; LOL.
"In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4]"
With all due respect Doris, your one of the biggest trolls here.
you're
"You haven't seriously studied the Bible, so it's apparent why you would have that view that you do."
That's a pretty idiotic statement. Does one need to study Dr. Suess book extensively to know they're fictional? I know more than enough about the bible to know it is blatantly false. If there were any truth to it, you can be sure Christians would turn it into a major news story, but there isn't.
So what do you say to this then? (and this is just one instance of many such clear and literal prophecies I could list)
Between 590-570BC, the prophet Ezekiel predicted in Ezekiel 26:26:12 that the debris of Tyre would be thrown into the sea. In 332BC, Alexander the Great did just that so that he might build a causeway out to the island fortress.
"Ezekiel 26:12"
It can also be found in Zechariah 9:3-4. This was written between 480-470BC.
I had a dream last night that I was by a beautiful waterfall. Then I woke up and sure enough, the cat box needed cleaning. Proof of prophecy! Praise the Lord! (Huge sarcastic eyeroll.)
Your mockery has no parallel to even that one prophecy that I listed. Read it. It doesn't get any clearer.
Theo, I also had a dream about a waterfall last night, then I realized I was awake.
Concert,
That's cute, but it is a non sequitur. Again, read the prophecy in Ezekiel 26:12.
Theo, you don't even get the joke.
Theo, here is the number one issue I see with you. You don't understand that people can't tell the future. Magic does not exist. Either something is real or it's not. Magic is not.
"You don't understand that people can't tell the future."
------------------–
I agree. No man can tell the future.
Daniel 2:28 – However, there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries
Isaiah 46:9-10 – “Remember the former things long past,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is no one like Me,
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things which have not been done,
Saying, ‘My purpose will be established,
And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’
"Magic does not exist. Either something is real or it's not. Magic is not."
----------------
I agree. But miracles DO happen.
As I said Theo, your number one problem....
I say who cares? The bible is a really long and ambiguous book. I'm sure there are some things that have actually happened that are somewhat similar to things described in the bible. Like I said before, is there anything in the bible that is definitively true? And by that, I mean something that everyone would agree on? I'm pretty sure there is not.
I am not entirely convinced that you would believe no matter what I wrote to you.
Well of course I wouldn't because you're wrong. If you were right and you had a valid point, you would be able to convince me, but you're not. I am a very open-minded person, but there is absolutely no reason to give the Christian bible story any legitimacy.
I think you've made it pretty clear that there is literally nothing in the bible that is true. You apparently have read it thoroughly and you can't provide a single example of a clear indisputable truth from the bible, whereas I can provide a very long lists of factually incorrect claims from the bible.
Ezekiel prophesied that Tyre would be destroyed and never be built again. Yet in Acts, Paul landed at Tyre.
never rebuilt to its grandeur it once was..andnot in the same place either
Kermit, you got to it before me! Thank you!
Tyre later became a fishing city, a place to spread nets for centuries until the Saracens finally destroyed what was left in the 4th century BC. (Ezekiel 26:14) Since then, Tyre has never been rebuilt to its original splendor.
Theo and Kermit,
Your level of denial is truly astounding. Prophecies are literal and clear when they are fulfilled. When they are not, you retreat into something wholly unsupportable. Speaking of clear:
"thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken it"
So you both admit it was rebuilt, and that the prophecy is still true, despite the fact that it says it will never be rebuilt?
Or perhaps the people of Tyre had access to iron chariots, as the bible says god can't defeat them.
unspiritual people will never be able to read the bible much less understand it. your unbelief stems from the fact that you have never come to understand and acknowledge your own wicked depraved heart. your heart right now is hard as a rock and you are blind so of course you can't see or hear His voice.
scotty boy, your mother is telling you to stop wandering off into that fantasy land. What is 'unbeleif, and unspirirual? Do you fundies get a course in how to make up words?
Some suggested references for awanderingscot to peruse before making any added comments:
o 1. Historical Jesus Theories, earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html – the names of many of the contemporary historical Jesus scholars and the ti-tles of their over 100 books on the subject.
2. Early Christian Writings, earlychristianwritings.com/
– a list of early Christian doc-uments to include the year of publication and discussions of each.
30-60 CE Passion Narrative
40-80 Lost Sayings Gospel Q
50-60 1 Thessalonians
50-60 Philippians
50-60 Galatians
50-60 1 Corinthians
50-60 2 Corinthians
50-60 Romans
50-60 Philemon
50-80 Colossians
50-90 Signs Gospel
50-95 Book of Hebrews
50-120 Didache
50-140 Gospel of Thomas
50-140 Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel
50-200 Sophia of Jesus Christ
65-80 Gospel of Mark
70-100 Epistle of James
70-120 Egerton Gospel
70-160 Gospel of Peter
70-160 Secret Mark
70-200 Fayyum Fragment
70-200 Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs
73-200 Mara Bar Serapion
80-100 2 Thessalonians
80-100 Ephesians
80-100 Gospel of Matthew
80-110 1 Peter
80-120 Epistle of Barnabas
80-130 Gospel of Luke
80-130 Acts of the Apostles
80-140 1 Clement
80-150 Gospel of the Egyptians
80-150 Gospel of the Hebrews
80-250 Christian Sibyllines
90-95 Apocalypse of John
90-120 Gospel of John
90-120 1 John
90-120 2 John
90-120 3 John
90-120 Epistle of Jude
93 Flavius Josephus
100-150 1 Timothy
100-150 2 Timothy
100-150 T-itus
100-150 Apocalypse of Peter
100-150 Secret Book of James
100-150 Preaching of Peter
100-160 Gospel of the Ebionites
100-160 Gospel of the Nazoreans
100-160 Shepherd of Hermas
100-160 2 Peter
4. Jesus Database, http://www.faithfutures.o-rg/JDB/intro.html –"The JESUS DATABASE is an online a-nnotated inventory of the traditions concerning the life and teachings of Jesus that have survived from the first three centuries of the Common Era. It includes both canonical and extra-canonical materials, and is not limited to the traditions found within the Christian New Testament."
5. Josephus on Jesus mtio.com/articles/bis-sar24.htm
6. The Jesus Seminar, http://en.wikipedia.o-rg/wiki/Jesus_Seminar
7. http://www.biblicalartifacts.com/items/785509/item785509biblicalartifacts.html – books on the health and illness during the time of the NT
8. Economics in First Century Palestine, K.C. Hanson and D. E. Oakman, Palestine in the Time of Jesus, Fortress Press, 1998.
9.The Gn-ostic Jesus
(Part One in a Two-Part Series on A-ncient and Modern G-nosticism)
by Douglas Gro-othuis: http://www.equip.o-rg/articles/g-nosticism-and-the-g-nostic-jesus/
10. The interpretation of the Bible in the Church, Pontifical Biblical Commission
Presented on March 18, 1994
ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PBCINTER.HTM#2
11. The Jesus Database- newer site:
wiki.faithfutures.o-rg/index.php?t-itle=Jesus_Database
12. Jesus Database with the example of S-u-pper and Eucharist:
faithfutures.o-rg/JDB/jdb016.html
13. Josephus on Jesus by Paul Maier:
mtio.com/articles/bis-sar24.htm
13. http://www.textweek.com/mtlk/jesus.htmm- Historical Jesus Studies
14. The Greek New Testament: laparola.net/greco/
15. D-iseases in the Bible:
http://books.google.com/books/about/The_d-iseases_of_the_Bible.html?id=C1YZAAAAYAAJ
16. Religion on- Line (6000 a-rt-ic-les on the hi-story of religion, churches, theologies,
theologians, eth-ics, etc. religion-online.o–rg/
17. The New Testament Gateway – Internet NT n-tgate-way.com/
18 Writing the New Testament- e-xi-sting copies, o–r–al tradition etc.
n-tgat-eway.com/
19. JD Crossan's c-onclusions about the a-uthencity of most of the NT based on the above plus the c-onclusions of other NT e-xege-tes in the last 200 years:
http://wiki.faithfutures.o-rg/index.p-hp?t-itle=Crossan_Inventory
20. Early Jewish Writings- Josephus and his books by t-itle with the complete translated work in English :earlyjewishwritings.com/josephus.html
21. Luke and Josephus- was there a c-onnection?
in-fidels.o-rg/library/modern/richard_carrier/lukeandjosephus.html
22. NT and beyond time line:
pbs.o-rg/empires/pe-terandpaul/history/timeline/
23. St. Paul's Time line with discussion of important events:
harvardhouse.com/prophetictech/new/pauls_life.htm
24. See http://www.amazon.com for a list of JD Crossan's books and those of the other Jesus Seminarians: Reviews of said books are included and selected pages can now be viewed on Amazon. Some books can be found on-line at Google Books.
25. Father Edward Schillebeeckx's words of wisdom as found in his books.
27. The books of the following : Professors Gerd Ludemann, Marcus Borg, Paula Fredriksen, Elaine Pagels, Karen Armstrong and Bishop NT Wright.
28. Father Raymond Brown's An Introduction to the New Testament, Doubleday, NY, 1977, 878 pages, with Nihil obstat and Imprimatur.
29. Luke Timothy Johnson's book The Real Jesus