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May 20th, 2014
03:24 PM ET

U.S. to Sudan: release Christian woman

By Daniel Burke, CNN Belief Blog Editor

[twitter-follow screen_name='BurkeCNN']

(CNN) - International pressure is mounting on Sudan to release a pregnant Christian woman sentenced to death for apostasy, with members of the U.S. Congress asking Secretary of State John Kerry to intervene on her behalf.

On Wednesday, a bi-partisan group of four senators introduced a resolution condemning the sentencing of Meriam Yahya Ibrahim by a court in Khartoum on May 15.

The proposed resolution encourages Sudan to respect religious rights if it wants the United States to normalize relations or lift economic sanctions on the African nation.

“I am disgusted and appalled by the inhumane verdict Ms. Ibrahim has received, simply for refusing to recant her Christian faith," said Senator Marco Rubio, a Republican from Florida and a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

"I also commend Ms. Ibrahim’s courage in refusing to renounce her Christianity, and I encourage her to remain steadfast. The world condemns her verdict and will stand by her in her moment of need," said Rubio.

The resolution was co-sponsored by Sens. Jim Inhofe, a Republican from Oklahoma; Chris Coons, a Democrat from Delaware; and Bob Menendez, a Democrat from New Jersey.

The proposed Senate resolution adds more voices to the international outcry over the situation of Ibrahim, a Christian wife and mother who is pregnant with her second child while shackled in a Sudanese jail. Ibrahim's husband, Daniel Wani, is a U.S. citizen.

In a public letter to Kerry last Friday, Sens. Kelly Ayotte of New Hampshire and Roy Blunt of Missouri, both Republicans, called the sentencing of Ibrahim "outrageous."

"We request your immediate action and full diplomatic engagement to offer Meriam political asylum and to secure her and her son's safe release," the senators told Kerry.

After State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said Monday that the Department of Homeland Security would have to oversee any asylum application filed by Ibrahim or her family, Ayotte and Blunt followed up with a letter asking the two departments to coordinate on the matter.

"Due to the nature of this case, it is critical that there is clarity between your departments regarding the status of the family and their previous requests for assistance from the United States," the senators wrote on Wednesday.  "Any gaps in communication between the departments during this time are simply unacceptable."

The worst places in the world to be religious

Ibrahim, 27, faces a long and unpredictable legal journey, according to her lawyer and international experts.

On May 15, a court in Khartoum convicted Ibrahim of apostasy, or the renunciation of faith, and sentenced her to death.

But variety of factors - Sudan's legal system, differences between its constitution and Sharia law imposed by the sentencing judge, her pregnancy - ensure there will be no execution any time soon.

Ibrahim's lawyer argues the sentence should not stand, and an international outcry could pressure Sudan's government to intervene.

Sudan has not carried out an execution for apostasy for almost two decades, according to the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom.

In 1985, a man was executed for apostasy and sedition, according to the commission, for criticizing Sudan's implementation of Shariah, or Islamic law.

Rep. Trent Franks, a Republican from Arizona and chair of the House's International Religious Freedom Caucus, echoed the U.S. senators' calls to free Ibrahim.

"Such blatant disregard for the value of human life - and religious freedom - is an indescribable disgrace," Franks said in a statement. The congressman also encouraged the State Department to get involved in Ibrahim's case.

Marie Harf, a spokeswoman for the State Department, has said the department is "deeply concerned" about the death sentence and called on Sudan to respect religious freedom and "approach this case with the compassion that is in keeping with the values of the Sudanese people."

Government officials in Canada, England the Netherlands have also condemned Ibrahim's sentencing. Andrew Bennett, Canada’s ambassador for religious freedom, said his country is "shocked and appalled" that Sudan would impose the death penalty on a pregnant woman merely for practicing her religion.

Ibrahim was born to a Sudanese Muslim father and an Ethiopian Orthodox mother. Her father left when she was 6, and she was raised by her mother as a Christian.

Her lawyer, Mohamed Jar Elnabi, said the case started after Ibrahim's brother filed a complaint against her.

The brother alleged Ibrahim had gone missing for several years and that her family was shocked to find she had married a Christian man.

Because her father was Muslim, the Sharia law court considered her to be the same. It refused to recognize her marriage to a Christian and also convicted her of adultery, with an additional sentence of 100 lashes.

Before imposing the sentence, the court gave her an opportunity to recant her Christian faith, but Elnabi said Ibrahim refused to do so, declaring: "I am a Christian, and I will remain a Christian."

Attempts by CNN to contact Sudan's justice minister and foreign affairs minister about the case have been unsuccessful.

(CNN's Tom Cohen and Mohammed Tawfeeq contributed to this report.

Why marrying for love should never mean death

- CNN Belief Blog

Filed under: Africa • Belief • Christianity • Discrimination • Foreign policy • Interfaith issues • Islam • Islamic law • Prejudice • Religious liberty • Religious violence • Sharia

soundoff (1,194 Responses)
  1. myweightinwords

    I wonder if this were a Muslim woman in a country where Christianity was the law of the land, and she was sentenced to death for conversion, would the US even bother? Or a Hindu woman in a country where Islam rules? Or an atheist in either a Christian or Muslim country?

    May 22, 2014 at 2:10 pm |
    • bostontola

      NFW

      May 22, 2014 at 2:14 pm |
    • SciFi

      ?do you ever do hypocritical things?
      ?what do you think of someone who says they have never done a hypocritical thing?
      ?or if someone says their logical thinkig prevents them from being hypocrites?
      i think people who criticize others for being hypocrites, are hypocrites. and they are fooling themselves if they arnt vulneragle to hypocrisy

      May 22, 2014 at 2:14 pm |
      • observer

        SciFi,

        Your "logic" fails by assuming that all hypocrites are equal.

        You need to rethink your comments.

        May 22, 2014 at 2:17 pm |
        • SciFi

          it is a question and a comment.
          !@not logic.
          .only lil doG and his fans says his comments are logic!

          May 22, 2014 at 2:23 pm |
        • SciFi

          i think
          diod you observer that
          ????? did you see questions
          ??do you know what logic is?
          it appears you dont

          May 22, 2014 at 2:24 pm |
        • SciFi

          the poster at teh top – myweight-
          seems to be the only logical thiking person, so i ask her a question

          May 22, 2014 at 2:25 pm |
        • SciFi

          i know most atheist are rich white males and dont like women
          but can you let us talk?

          May 22, 2014 at 2:25 pm |
        • observer

          SciFi,,

          Congrats on your new name. Sure looks like the same nonsense from the troll of 1,000 names.

          May 22, 2014 at 4:16 pm |
      • myweightinwords

        I honestly make a concerted effort not to act in a hypocritical way, and when I do I am often the first person to point it out.

        Nothing in my post indicated I thought myself better than anyone else. I was merely pointing out something I found disparate, something that I believe actually fails us all in a broader context.

        Or do you believe that pointing out something that is wrong is not worth doing?
        Does the fact that a person may have acted hypocritically at some point in there life negate their ability to correct themselves? Does it make them incapable of pointing out an error and seeking to fix it?

        If that is how you feel, perhaps we should all just give up and wallow in our collective crap?

        Sorry, that's irresponsible and childish. We change the world by changing ourselves.

        May 22, 2014 at 2:25 pm |
        • SciFi

          i appreciated your post and was asking you questions
          it was off the subject of your post. that was confusing you.
          !sorry!
          i want to know what you think about the few that tell me they are not hypocritical.
          i dont want to be hypocritical. but sometimes i am. i watch for it.

          May 22, 2014 at 2:27 pm |
        • myweightinwords

          SciFi,

          My point to you is that you are far, far too concerned with the errors of others and pointing out this one particular failing. Also, your communication style is somewhat confusing, so if I misunderstand, I apologize.

          As to your question regarding others pronouncing themselves free of hypocrisy, I can not speak to them. I do not control them, I do not see them as they see themselves. We are all human, therefore we all fail, we all fall, we all make mistakes and we all do things that may seem hypocritical to others.

          However, we do not know their internal dialog. We do not know how they justify what they do. We can only judge them based on what we see and what we ourselves know.

          Stop worrying about making another admit what you see as hypocrisy. Consider your own and make effort to eliminate it.

          May 22, 2014 at 2:34 pm |
        • SciFi

          Thanks.
          Im not from here
          but i liked your post
          good

          May 22, 2014 at 3:17 pm |
      • MidwestKen

        @scifi,
        So are you criticizing those who criticize hypocrites for being hypocrites?
        Wouldn't that make you hypocritical for criticizing those hypocrites?

        May 22, 2014 at 2:28 pm |
        • SciFi

          !yep.
          i am a hypocrite at times.
          and im being a hypocrite in pointing out others hypocrite
          !and they still say they are not 1

          May 22, 2014 at 2:30 pm |
    • Dyslexic doG

      "I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." – George H. W. Bush.

      May 22, 2014 at 2:15 pm |
      • Lucifer's Evil Twin

        George the Muppet was never accused of being overly intelligent.

        May 22, 2014 at 2:23 pm |
        • bostontola

          H.W. is no dummy (unlike his son). That's why this statement is so disappointing.

          May 22, 2014 at 2:25 pm |
        • Lucifer's Evil Twin

          I erred, wrong Bush... but the apple never falls far from the shrubbery...

          May 22, 2014 at 2:28 pm |
      • Lucifer's Evil Twin

        I am a citizen, a patriot, and an atheist.. and yet I fought in his war... so H.W. can piss off

        May 22, 2014 at 2:32 pm |
        • bostontola

          I agree!

          May 22, 2014 at 2:36 pm |
        • Dyslexic doG

          Thanks LET. You are appreciated!

          May 22, 2014 at 2:52 pm |
    • Vic

      The first part of your manifold question, at least, is invalid.

      There is no such thing as death penalty for conversion in Christianity. And, I am not aware of such thing in any other belief system besides Islam.

      Furthermore, the US Media and the White House outcried the abductions of the 300 Muslim Nigerian girls more than any other besides the people in Nigeria.

      It's all about "Justice" and the "Sanctity of Human Life."

      May 22, 2014 at 2:33 pm |
      • myweightinwords

        Perhaps today that is true. It hasn't always been. The question is hypothetical. It is simply a thing to think about, to offer a chance to consider different situations.

        The question isn't about a specific religion or set of religions. It is about justice, as you say and applying it evenly to everyone. It is about equality in our outrage as much as equality in our complacency.

        May 22, 2014 at 2:39 pm |
    • sealchan

      Based on an earlier Belief Blog article, I would say any significant organization of power that aligns itself with atheism or theism is susceptible to the persecution of outside beliefs.

      May 22, 2014 at 4:56 pm |
  2. Dyslexic doG

    even as a child getting indoctrinated at church and at sunday school I kept looking around puzzled, wondering if all the other children actually believed this nonsense they were telling us. I figured it was something we pretended to believe to keep the adults happy. Sort of an inverse santa claus.

    The more I have studied the bible, and believe me I have spent years studying it and other religious books, the more I see this as a hangover from primitive days when our ancestors had no scientific knowledge and had to imagine gods to explain things. The human mind and its weakness for cognitive dissonance are all that keeps religion alive.

    In the words of Isaac Asimov: "Properly read, the bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."

    May 22, 2014 at 1:54 pm |
    • SciFi

      !!doG says quote
      !!!!but I am not a hypocrite. /quote

      HEY:

      – have you ever done a hypocritical thing?

      a. say yes: you are being a hypocrite for criticizing felllow hypocrites

      b. say no: you are the 1st person to never do a hypocritical thing -congratulations.

      the only men or women ive ever met that could say they never do hypocritical things were in serious self denial

      May 22, 2014 at 2:08 pm |
      • observer

        SciFi

        By your "logic" no one can say anyone is a hypocrite as if all hypocrites are the same.

        Failure. Try again.

        May 22, 2014 at 2:14 pm |
        • SciFi

          no
          you can call someone a hypocrite
          but you should also admit you are a hypoicrite too
          those who say they arent or have never been need to be questioned – they are probably delusional aor brainwashed into thinking they are above it
          they are not
          they aer vulnerable to the defct of hypocritys too
          i see it
          u see it
          doG does not can not will not see it

          May 22, 2014 at 2:17 pm |
        • bostontola

          yes, but the premise in 'a' is that the person did admit being a hypocrite.

          May 22, 2014 at 2:19 pm |
        • SciFi

          doggie said he was NOT a hyopicrite
          !but said others he hated were.

          May 22, 2014 at 2:28 pm |
      • bostontola

        "a. say yes: you are being a hypocrite for criticizing felllow hypocrites"

        Why would the identification of someone else's hypocritical statement by an admitted hypocrite have to be an act of hypocrisy?

        May 22, 2014 at 2:18 pm |
        • SciFi

          .he is not practicing what he preaches.

          May 22, 2014 at 2:20 pm |
        • bostontola

          Only if the hypocrite preaches that thou shall not be a hypocrite. That wasn't part of the premise. There is nothing hypocritical about one hypocrite pointing out the hypocrisy in another in general.

          May 22, 2014 at 2:24 pm |
        • sealchan

          It is one thing to criticize someone for being a hypocrit, it is another to point out the hypocracy and to explore how (with compassion) it might be difficult to escape it. I think that scifi is trying to demonstrate that some people think that they can speak from a position without hypocrasy in the broadest sense of having a consistent epistemology for living in the world.

          May 22, 2014 at 2:28 pm |
        • SciFi

          .i think doggie was being a hypocrite.
          .and he said he wasnt a hypocrite.
          .if he said he was wrong, or that he can be a hypocrite.
          .or he was being a hypocrite.
          .it would show something..
          i dnt think he can

          May 22, 2014 at 3:19 pm |
    • new-man

      how sad, you spent so many years 'studying the Bible,' yet, all that knowledge and not a single bit of revelation.

      here's a clue: without a relationship with the Holy Spirit, you 'study' in vain. it is the Holy Spirit {Wisdom] who narrated Scripture and you need the Holy Spirit to lead you and to teach you all truth. If you could know truth just by reading Scripture, you wouldn't need the Spirit of Truth.

      Takeaway for you: The Bible is a dangerous book without the Holy Spirit. This is evidenced daily on this blog by those who have no relationship with the Holy Spirit.

      May 22, 2014 at 2:08 pm |
      • igaftr

        Ahhh the old, I'm special because I believe...you can't see it because you don't believe... The depths one takes to convince themselves with no evidence anywhere ever is astounding, and yes, I acknowledge the fact that YOU think you have evidence. That is just another thing you have convinced yourself of.

        May 22, 2014 at 2:16 pm |
        • Lucifer's Evil Twin

          new-man is a religiously blinded tool... just replace his ridiculous notion of 'relationship with the Holy Spirit' with 'relationship with Bugs Bunny" same thing really... but funnier.

          May 22, 2014 at 2:38 pm |
        • new-man

          Friend,
          I love you too and you're just as special to and beloved of my heavenly Father, you just don't know it nor have a revelation of it [yet].

          Blessings.

          May 22, 2014 at 3:39 pm |
        • igaftr

          Newman
          As far as any can show, your heavenly father only exists in imaginations., and keep your witchcraft to yourself, don't try ito invoke your god magic on me.

          May 22, 2014 at 3:48 pm |
      • sealchan

        One way to look at this is to propose that truth comes from more than one type of "way of knowing". One could study the Bible and derive value from it in the context of an analysis of its literary and/or historical qualities. However, that person would likely miss the spiritual aspect. The characters of the Bible must be seen to stand in for our own experience in the context of the story that those characters live in the Bible. The reader must suspend disbelief sufficiently to see that the stories with their impossibilities and implausibilities, are trying to communicate important truths through those same unlikelihoods (to coin a word). You have to put in to get something out. As a Christian, I do not hold to the premise that the Bible is the right tool for everyone, but for those who seek, it can be for many.

        May 22, 2014 at 2:34 pm |
        • new-man

          I will agree with you that there are 2 types of knowledge: spiritual knowledge and earthly knowledge, the latter gained only through the 5 senses (carnality). [I know you didn't use the words 2 types of knowledge, but this is where I agree and I'll leave it there]
          A person who is totally carnal can only relate to what he/she has garnered through the 5 senses. Having no knowledge of the things of the spirit makes one spiritually dead. The wisdom of God which comes only through the Holy Spirit is not earthy or material and therefore can never be discerned by one who is wholly governed by his carnality.

          For the record, as a believer in Yeshua as my Savior, Lord & King, I believe Scripture is the word of God. I believe Christ Jesus is the very word manifested in the physical/earthly realm. I believe it is the very word of God that sustains and upholds this universe. Everything that was made was created with the Word that God spoke (and if God were to take back His word this universe would disintegrate/cease to exist, because His word is that potent, it's that powerful).

          May 22, 2014 at 2:59 pm |
        • bostontola

          What about the spiritual knowledge Jews and Muslims have that Jesus is not God?

          May 22, 2014 at 3:10 pm |
        • igaftr

          newman
          First off, we only have one sense. The sense of touch. The senses you refer to are all based on something actually touching the nerve cells.

          Secondly, the only truth we knowledge we have of anything "spiritual" is that we know there is no evidence of it.
          To claim knowledge beyond that, is miscalling belief knowledge. All you have is spiritual belief, not knowledge.

          May 22, 2014 at 3:46 pm |
        • sealchan

          @Bostonola
          For myself I would say that other belief systems, if they do work for the believer, are valid.

          May 22, 2014 at 5:00 pm |
        • bostontola

          sealchan,
          Interesting. So in your spiritual worldview, Jesus can be God and not God simultaneously.

          May 22, 2014 at 5:12 pm |
      • Madtown

        without a relationship with the Holy Spirit, you 'study' in vain.
        ------
        How do you get this relationship in the first place?

        May 22, 2014 at 5:00 pm |
        • new-man

          @Madtown:
          new-man: without a relationship with the Holy Spirit, you 'study' in vain.
          --
          How do you get this relationship in the first place?

          An unsaved person cannot receive the Holy Spirit, the best they can do is receive Jesus.
          Salvation is what gets you ready to receive the Holy Spirit, and all a person has to do is ask for it.

          And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate,[e] who will never leave you. 17 He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you.

          So if you sinful people know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him.”

          May 22, 2014 at 5:28 pm |
    • SciFi

      !!doG says quote
      !!!!but I am not a hypocrite. /quote

      HEY:

      – have you ever done a hypocritical thing?

      a. say yes: you are being a hypocrite for criticizing felllow hypocrites

      b. say no: you are the 1st person to never do a hypocritical thing -congratulations.

      May 22, 2014 at 2:09 pm |
    • SciFi

      The question lil doGie won't answer
      he'd rather yip and yap at everyone about other things.

      !!doG says quote
      !!!!but I am not a hypocrite. /quote

      HEY:

      – have you ever done a hypocritical thing?

      a. say yes: you are being a hypocrite for criticizing felllow hypocrites

      b. say no: you are the 1st person to never do a hypocritical thing -congratulations.

      the only men or women ive ever met that could say they never do hypocritical things were in serious self denial
      and lil doggies

      May 22, 2014 at 2:09 pm |
      • TruthPrevails1

        Salero/thefinisher1, is that you? Lack of writing ability and belittling people certainly makes it sound it. Tell us, did you fail grade 1 writing?

        May 22, 2014 at 4:06 pm |
    • SciFi

      – have you ever done a hypocritical thing?

      a. say yes: you are being a hypocrite for criticizing felllow hypocrites

      b. say no: you are the 1st person to never do a hypocritical thing -congratulations.

      quit dancin and answer

      May 22, 2014 at 2:10 pm |
    • bostontola

      doG,
      I had a very similar experience as a kid. I must have missed the Sunday school lesson where they told us these were real stories. I grew up assuming these were parables like Aesop's fables. My parents were more serious about them than I was, but I attributed that to parents being parents. My friends rarely talked about religion. I did learn a lot, but it was like learning from classical novels, not non-fiction.

      May 22, 2014 at 2:13 pm |
      • sealchan

        I would say that maybe the truth of spiritual knowledge lies somewhere between non-fiction and classical novels.

        May 22, 2014 at 5:06 pm |
        • Doris

          I would say it lies somewhere between the esophagus and the anus. A big plate of beans will "learn" you the truth really well.

          May 22, 2014 at 5:18 pm |
  3. Salero21

    Again I see here here the same CHICKEN HAWKS from a previous blog, always asking and pretending the SEOSEC's in the Military be sent to some battles/wars here there and everywhere.

    May 22, 2014 at 1:41 pm |
    • Dyslexic doG

      oooops!

      May 22, 2014 at 1:45 pm |
      • Salero21

        In a previous page. Are you or are you not one of them? Is very easy to see who is a CHICKEN-HAWK They're always the First to ask for the Military to be sent to battles/wars here, there and everywhere. That's because in their heart of hearts they know the Military is made of SEOSEC's.

        May 22, 2014 at 1:53 pm |
        • Salero21

          SEOSEC + Someone Else Or Someone Else's Child.

          CHICKEN-HAWK someone who never did Military service when he could/should have, and now is all so Hawkish. And wants the SEOSEC's in the Military to be sent to wars here, there and everywhere.

          Kind of like Chenney, Limbaugh, Romney, O'reilly, and others that escape my memory. May Include political careerists women whose sons could/were/will be deferred from service or who have no sons.

          The Creed of the CHICKEN-HAWK is: My Only Regret is that my friend/neighbor/brother has only one life to GIVE for MY/his Country!

          May 22, 2014 at 2:09 pm |
        • Salero21

          Besides political careerists women who have no sons, they also have no husbands, brother or whose husband, brother like son could/were/will be deferred because of her Political connections/influence/pull.

          A CHICKEN-HAWK Creed/Credo can become so perverted as to say: My Only Regret is that my father/grandfather/uncle/brother had only one life to give for MY Country.

          May 22, 2014 at 2:19 pm |
        • Salero21

          http://youtu.be/yWnkr-y5zFg

          May 22, 2014 at 2:27 pm |
    • TruthPrevails1

      sally/thefinisher1/scifi: It's cute that you're learning to 'bold' your letter's, now could you learn to formulate a sentence properly?

      May 22, 2014 at 4:10 pm |
      • Salero21

        Yours is the stuff that Charlatans are made of. Are you a CHICKEN-HAWK or are you not?

        May 22, 2014 at 5:56 pm |
  4. Dyslexic doG

    You mean to tell me,
    that a Jewish zombie can make me live forever,
    if I telepathically accept him as my master…
    all because a talking snake convinced a woman created by one rib
    to eat from a magical tree?
    Really???

    May 22, 2014 at 1:36 pm |
    • SciFi

      i dont believe but a zombie is the living dead. still dead.
      catholic say jesus resurrectd from the dead. not dead.
      who taught you different?

      May 22, 2014 at 1:48 pm |
      • lunchbreaker

        After rising, Jesus still had holes in his hands and feet and a gaping wound in his side.

        May 22, 2014 at 1:52 pm |
        • SciFi

          he could walk thru walls- disappeared like magic and ate food.
          thinkgs zombies dont do

          May 22, 2014 at 1:58 pm |
        • MidwestKen

          @Scifi,
          Wasn't the term 'risen' used?

          The living don't walk through walls either.

          May 22, 2014 at 2:06 pm |
        • G to the T

          "thinkgs zombies dont do"

          Correct. I think he would technically be a litch, not a zombie.

          May 22, 2014 at 2:08 pm |
      • neverbeenhappieratheist

        Zombie: a corpse said to be revived by witchcraft, especially in certain African and Caribbean religions.2. a tall mixed drink consisting of several kinds of rum, liqueur, and fruit juice.

        Witchcraft: the practice of magic, especially black magic; the use of spells and the invocation of spirits.

        So if he wasn't revived by "witchcraft" what power was used?

        May 22, 2014 at 1:58 pm |
        • SciFi

          his higher power.
          nobody said a spell or inocked a spirit. they buried him. his god raised him. not witchcraft. not a drink with rum.
          i don't believe it. but that is what they said.

          May 22, 2014 at 2:04 pm |
        • Lucifer's Evil Twin

          The appropriate term for the jesus character is 'Lich'

          But I maintain that zombie is more recognizable and funnier...

          May 22, 2014 at 2:17 pm |
        • neverbeenhappieratheist

          Lich: In fantasy fiction, a lich (/ˈlɪtʃ/; cognate to Dutch lijk, German Leiche and Norse lík, all meaning "corpse") is a type of undead creature.

          Jesus: In fantasy fiction, Jesus is a type of creature raised from the dead who some claim is our Lord and Savior.

          So technically he would be a Lich Lord...

          May 22, 2014 at 2:33 pm |
    • lunchbreaker

      Of course, but to live forever you have to die first. And actually you live forever no matter what, it's just where you live forever. So what you are requesting telepathically is a permanant high, although getting high in this life is bad.

      May 22, 2014 at 1:49 pm |
  5. SciFi

    who would you rather fly your plane?

    1 a man who has been fully trained to fly the aircraft
    he has a great flight record
    and he is catholic. it is personal and meaningful to him.
    lilke most catholics, he can think logically, or else he wouldnt be able tp captain a jet

    2 a man who has no idea how to fly the plane.
    he says the man #1 is foolish or insane because he believes things without a single shred of proof.
    this man claims #1 is seen by all logical thinking people as foolish or even insane
    (ps #2 doesn't prove the man believes something without a single shred of proof, nor has he attempted to even prove all logical thinking person sees it as a mark of foolishness or insanity ))

    QUOTE
    ""faith": believing something without a single shred of proof.

    it amazes me that religious folk see this word as a badge of honor while any logical thinking person sees it as a mark of foolishness or insanity.

    quite a disconnect." +Dyslexic doG
    /QUOTE

    i have faith in man #1, not #2
    how bout you?

    (c) science – kicking illogical dogs in the butt since the begining of life!

    May 22, 2014 at 1:24 pm |
    • Dyslexic doG

      did you miss your meds this morning?

      May 22, 2014 at 1:32 pm |
      • SciFi

        i took my meds. why? ?is that bad?
        ?why do you wear your opinions like a badge of honor?
        ?and hypocritically say other peopel wear their faith like a badge of honor?

        May 22, 2014 at 1:34 pm |
        • Dyslexic doG

          how is that hypocritical?

          May 22, 2014 at 1:37 pm |
        • SciFi

          u say people of faith are seen by a logical thinking people as either foolish or insane
          but that is not logical. some logical thinking people jave faith
          it is possible and probable that you are nto a logical thinker all the time
          !u suggesting they are foolish or insanse is hypocritical because it is foolish or insane on your part!
          your posts and faith are your badges of honor – you show them off and declare yourself better as in not foolish and not insane

          May 22, 2014 at 1:40 pm |
      • SciFi

        !!doG says quote
        !!!!but I am not a hypocrite. /quote

        HEY:

        – have you ever done a hypocritical thing?

        a. say yes: you are being a hypocrite for criticizing felllow hypocrites

        b. say no: you are the 1st person to never do a hypocritical thing -congratulations.

        the only men or women ive ever met that could say they never do hypocritical things were in serious self denial

        May 22, 2014 at 1:37 pm |
        • Lucifer's Evil Twin

          I've noticed that you repost the same dumb shit over and over... and you repeatedly and erroneously attempt to conflate faith and science. Which tells me you are 1. a person who thinks creationism is actual science and 2. you are a dimwit and not really worth responding too.

          Addendum: you also overuse punctuation like a teenage girl...

          May 22, 2014 at 1:47 pm |
        • SciFi

          i dont nkow creationism
          im not religious but beleive in the universe is my higher power
          i know human beings use faith to advance science
          & im glad they do
          faith can be a good thing. or a bad thing.
          just like science

          May 22, 2014 at 1:51 pm |
      • SciFi

        do you make fun of insane people because they take meds?
        and use them to put down tohers
        that is sick

        May 22, 2014 at 1:41 pm |
      • SciFi

        when you tell someone "did you miss your meds this morning", you are not helping them.
        you're taking away that person's basic right to feel whatever they need to.
        you may feel that calling a person in pain "did you miss your meds this morning" gives you the upper hand, but in reality, it only helps you cover up your own fears in a shiny coat of ignorance.
        !your self-validation, however satisfying as it may seem, is short lived.

        May 22, 2014 at 1:43 pm |
        • Dyslexic doG

          actually, I was just concerned for you. The rest of the conclusions you jumped to are purely of your own fabrication.

          I hope you feel better soon.

          May 22, 2014 at 1:47 pm |
        • SciFi

          just like the conclusions you jumped to are purely of your own fabrication.
          like, that all logical thinking people theink peopel of faith are insane or foolish

          May 22, 2014 at 1:52 pm |
    • sealchan

      Everyone operates on faith, only we don't usually recognize this as this faith is covered by convention or common sense. Free will cannot be proven, yet most human rights presupposes some sense of free will. It is those who think that one can live a practical life without faith that are mistaken. Accepting the necessity of faith, those that profess a faith often mistake their faith for the kind of truth generated by proof. There is a lack of knowledge in this area on both sides.

      May 22, 2014 at 1:42 pm |
      • SciFi

        i have faith that all men are created equal, in the usa
        this is not a natural right, we are not all created equal in nature.society.life
        but we have faith a creator intended for us to be all equal
        i will fight for that faith. it is the best

        May 22, 2014 at 1:45 pm |
    • lunchbreaker

      Person 1.

      May 22, 2014 at 1:54 pm |
      • SciFi

        #2 is only qualfied to make silly remarks
        that is it.
        anyone can do that
        !He can't do what #1 does!
        that makes him sad.
        sad lil doggie yips and yaps at those who can

        May 22, 2014 at 2:01 pm |
    • igaftr

      I would prefer option #3 and fly the plane myself.

      May 22, 2014 at 1:56 pm |
      • SciFi

        i fly on planes today
        the pilot is catholic
        no logical thinking person on my plane thinks he is foolish or insane
        only the dumb dogs in the cages think like that

        May 22, 2014 at 2:00 pm |
        • igaftr

          When I fly, the pilot is an atheist/agnostic.

          How do you know what the "dumb dogs" are thinking? Did they tell you they think the pilot is insane?

          May 22, 2014 at 2:10 pm |
        • SciFi

          dyslexic doG said he was

          i fly with atheist and agnostic pilots too. they make great pilots. just like the catholics

          May 22, 2014 at 2:15 pm |
    • MidwestKen

      @Scifi,
      If #1 got his flight training from an alleged God, then I'll take the bus.

      May 22, 2014 at 2:20 pm |
      • SciFi

        like all pilots catholic or atheist
        he did it the legal way
        the way most 'irrational and foolish' faith people do it
        .you know, like the ones that would sacrificie their lives for us
        for your united state right to disagree.

        May 22, 2014 at 2:22 pm |
        • Akira

          Catholicism is but one denomination of Christianity; why are you singling Catholics out?
          If you are talking about people who have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior, that is Christianity.

          May 22, 2014 at 4:52 pm |
  6. ausphor

    Vic
    You mean just like the stories of god and jesus evolved into the holy trinity over several centuries? Got to love those myths.

    May 22, 2014 at 1:09 pm |
  7. SciFi

    http://www.amazon.com/Why-Everyone-Else-Hypocrite-Evolution/dp/0691154392
    We're all hypocrites. Why? Hypocrisy is the natural state of the human mind.
    .quote
    Robert Kurzban shows us that the key to understanding our behavioral inconsistencies lies in understanding the mind's design. The human mind consists of many specialized units designed by the process of evolution by natural selection. While these modules sometimes work together seamlessly, they don't always, resulting in impossibly contradictory beliefs, vacillations between patience and impulsiveness, violations of our supposed moral principles, and overinflated views of ourselves.
    .
    This modular, evolutionary psychological view of the mind undermines deeply held intuitions about ourselves, as well as a range of scientific theories that require a "self" with consistent beliefs and preferences. Modularity suggests that there is no "I." Instead, each of us is a contentious "we"–a collection of discrete but interacting systems whose constant conflicts shape our interactions with one another and our experience of the world.
    .
    In clear language, full of wit and rich in examples, Kurzban explains the roots and implications of our inconsistent minds, and why it is perfectly natural to believe that everyone else is a hypocrite./quote
    .
    zhilla1980wasp is the only exception.according to himself.
    .he will prove it and we will have a parade for him
    !go zhilla1980wasp!!!!
    .he said he has never done a hypocritical thing – bxcause he uses logic or somethign liek that

    May 22, 2014 at 1:05 pm |
    • sealchan

      This helps to justify mysticism as a kind of positive acceptance of the phenomenonology of looking at the world through "brain-colored" glasses.

      May 22, 2014 at 1:52 pm |
    • zhilla1980wasp

      explain me this, if i simply view humans as we are, an animal and thus we are equal to each other and all things; then what would i have to be hypocritical about?

      i'm no better or worse than yourself, i simply rely more on my grey matter to approach life.
      i have no reason to deny people their human rights or stand above anyone else, due to this i can't place myself different than anyone else.
      a hypocrite is a person that opposes one thing and does the very thing they just spoke against.
      i.e. refusing marriage rights to same gender couples on the grounds of "man and woman" from an archaic book.
      religious people seperate themselves into various groupings and by those divisions permit and perpetuate hypocrisy of various sorts.

      i simply lack that "holier than thou" pestal to look down upon other humans.

      so when is my parade? lol

      May 23, 2014 at 7:33 am |
  8. SciFi

    Ive never done a hypocritical thing

    May 22, 2014 at 1:02 pm |
    • SciFi

      hyporcrites are judgmental and stupid.
      they think they are better than everyone else
      im glad im not like them

      May 22, 2014 at 1:03 pm |
      • Salero21

        That's not really the issue with atheists.

        Anyone and everyone can act/be a hypocrite at one time or another. That's NOT the result of evolution but of SIN. We humans SIN against God and against our fellow humans beings. The big problem of atheists/evolutionists is that their Hypocrisy is Extreme and their Lying is Compulsive.

        May 22, 2014 at 1:23 pm |
        • SciFi

          im not talking about atheists or sin.
          !i do think we are hard wired to act hypocritical!
          but we can overcome it.
          our natural instincts are changing

          May 22, 2014 at 1:27 pm |
        • Salero21

          You mentioned evolution. Did you forget that already? IS in you copy & paste note. I do lump atheists together with evolutionists cultists pagans and idolaters, because they're basically and fundamentally the same. They all refuse and reject God in the same fundamental way. Only minor differences in style and semantics, but just about one and the same for any and all practical purposes.

          May 22, 2014 at 1:48 pm |
        • SciFi

          i have not met your god
          i have a loving higher power that guides me – the universe
          are you catholic

          May 22, 2014 at 1:54 pm |
  9. Sheik Yerbouti

    Looking for god in the universe is the same as looking for god in your closet. God doesn’t have to adhere to the constraints of a human on earth. Size is not something that exists is the god world. In the god world, your song is always available on the juke box. If I lived in another galaxy perhaps I would perceive this differently.

    May 22, 2014 at 12:45 pm |
  10. Sheik Yerbouti

    When I was a kid, I laughed out loud in bible school at the ridiculous stories and concepts presented. Naturally that was frowned on and I was not a popular pupil. I have been an atheist since the day I was born with a functioning brain that could reason and separate fact from fiction. I don’t have the answers. The flesh and blood of fellow living things, the decay of death, love, happiness, sadness and hope. It is up to me to determine my destiny and when I die I will be burned and returned. Soon no one will remember me.

    The real question is, does it make more sense that time and space would stop or expand forever. If a new species evolved on Earth long after our extinction would evolution select the same or similar intellectual traits that lead to religion? Would god start over with this different species and hide himself or make contact. Perhaps this is the patter. We are part of the patter of god’s creations throughout this and perhaps many universes.

    Anyway, ashes to ashes.

    May 22, 2014 at 12:37 pm |
    • Sheik Yerbouti

      *pattern

      May 22, 2014 at 12:38 pm |
  11. Lucifer's Evil Twin

    “When the Rapture comes and God bodily transports all of the good, kind, charitable, compassionate, tolerant, humble, loving Christians, I'm sure the world will miss both of them.” – Doc V.

    May 22, 2014 at 12:14 pm |
  12. Vic

    Very effective. how the title of the article chronologically evolved from reporting to resolution.

    Early on:
    http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/05/20/will-sudan-really-execute-a-pregnant-christian-woman/comment-page-2/#comment-3014064

    May 22, 2014 at 12:07 pm |
    • Lucifer's Evil Twin

      Did something get resolved?

      May 22, 2014 at 12:24 pm |
      • Vic

        I sure hope so. I am referring to the proposed US Senate Resolution above that's leading the International effort to release Merriam Ibrahim.

        May 22, 2014 at 12:43 pm |
  13. igaftr

    awanderingscot stated "we preach love".

    Here are some examples of his "preaching love"
    "you're just another unregenerate hater."
    "the DoG returns to his own vomit."
    "you should practice what you preach you Godless hypocrite."
    "you'll need to consult the nose-haired government-grant sycophants "
    "Colin can't seem to get his nose-hair buddies on the line "
    "unregenerate unbelievers"
    "one of your nose-haired buddies "
    " here's something your pea-sized brain might be able to wrap around"
    " hairy-eared government sycophants can't do it"
    "why are you a stooge for nose-haired government sycophants?"
    "you doh-doh's only think you have the facts, but others besides your nose-haired sycophant stooges "
    "you're like a wind-up doll that your nose-haired sycophants on government grants "
    "snifflepagan," Dorrus"
    " you have no more reasoning than a weasel and are only concerned with where your next meal will come from"
    "these cretins will believe any other fool who grows nose and ear hair calling himself a "scientist" "
    " Fools can't see the wind either yet they believe it exists. duh"

    That last one is my favoriate. He is a 56 year old with a 10 year olds mentality. To him, berating people is preaching love.

    May 22, 2014 at 12:01 pm |
    • SciFi

      are you 2 fighitng again? lovers quarel?

      May 22, 2014 at 12:04 pm |
    • Dyslexic doG

      he is carefully following his god's modus operandi ... read the bible for examples of how his god shows his love ... scary.

      May 22, 2014 at 12:05 pm |
      • SciFi

        it is perfectly natural to think other people are teh hypocrites
        but you are one too

        May 22, 2014 at 1:10 pm |
    • zhilla1980wasp

      this one is my favorite: " Fools can't see the wind either yet they believe it exists. duh"

      i imagine the folks that had their homes flattened by a tornado could see the wind.

      May 22, 2014 at 12:10 pm |
    • TruthPrevails1

      He fails to realize that calling me Godless is not an insult. I'm quite happy to be godless. However, his ignorance is almost blinding and it's extremely hard to accept that he is 56 given how low his IQ apparently is...I know 4 year olds who are smarter.

      (and SciFi; before you spew the same old rhetoric...yes, I can be a hypocrite but so can everyone else...you don't need to repeat your comment 50 x's over...it was noticed the first time and made no more sense then as it does now...why do you care so much and who are you to call out people for it?)

      May 22, 2014 at 3:47 pm |
      • awanderingscot

        Truth
        i call you Godless (with a capital 'G') out of pity, not that you're worthy of an insult.

        May 22, 2014 at 8:27 pm |
        • TruthPrevails1

          Oh my, one of the most uneducated dolts on this blog thinking anyone needs his pity...what a joke! It's a compliment happy with being-sorry to burst that wee bubble of yours. Not all are as weak minded as you that they require some imaginary being to guide them...some of us are good without those imaginary beings!

          May 22, 2014 at 8:55 pm |
    • awanderingscot

      IGAFTR
      you forgot another one friend, COWARD.
      since only a COWARD would post someone's name on an anonymous blog,
      and only a COWARD would wait until the other person was offline to stab him in the back,
      and only a COWARD would bother to copy all of the statements a person makes and leave them out of context and only evil intent would make him save these same statements to use against the person later.

      the love we preach is the love of God which is perfect.

      my love ... not so perfect, but if you were to get robbed and beaten, left for dead alongside the road IGAFTR, i would take you to the nearest doctor, pay for your treatment and stay with you until i knew you would be ok. that's the kind of love Christ commands me to have, but it's not the same love that i have for my brothers in Christ for whom i would die for. I really hope one day you'll repent of your evil unbelief and humble yourself before your creator so that you can experience this love for yourself. I'm still holding out hope for you friend.

      May 22, 2014 at 8:19 pm |
      • observer

        awanderingscot,

        Your LONG LIST of insults shows how much you ACTUALLY believe and follow Christ's example.

        Well done. HYPOCRISY lives on.

        May 22, 2014 at 8:32 pm |
    • observer

      igaftr,

      You also left out that every time someone points out something that the Bible says that awanderingscot doesn't like, instead of attacking the Bible, he starts calling the messenger a liar.

      May 22, 2014 at 8:41 pm |
  14. Dyslexic doG

    why doesn't ONE god just show himself or herself or itself and then we can get past all this inter-religious death and destruction and damage to the human race?

    Why do all gods seem to play the same childish games of wanting people to believe in them without a shred of evidence for their existence?

    If gods really love us as their cult followers say that they do, wouldn't they spare us all this pain and torment by letting all the other gods' cult members know that our god is the only god if they would simply show themselves?

    what a crock!

    May 22, 2014 at 11:59 am |
    • SciFi

      HEY, YOU HATE HYPOCRITES, TELL US:

      – have you ever done a hypocritical thing?

      a. say yes: you are being a hypocrite for criticizing felllow hypocrites

      b. say no: you are the 1st person to never do a hypocritical thing -congratulations.

      May 22, 2014 at 12:10 pm |
      • zhilla1980wasp

        answer: no.

        i make my choices based off of what is most logical for that point in time.

        logically i don't care what other people do as long as they don't bother me, so logically i don't bother them.

        first non-hypocritical person you've met. congrats

        May 22, 2014 at 12:19 pm |
        • SciFi

          i learned how to not be hypocritical by being hypocritical & not likeing it
          ! that is how it works for most people !
          YOU ARE SUPERMAN.
          part of being a lowly hypocritical human being is we cant always do what is logical for ourselves in that point in time.
          YOU ARE PERFECT IF YOU CAN NOT BE HYPOCRITICAL

          May 22, 2014 at 12:24 pm |
        • SciFi

          Have you ever done a hypocritical thing?

          "No." – zhilla1980wasp
          he hasnt proved it. but if he does, he will be tthe first human being who can honestly say such a thing.
          lets get a parade started for him, ladies!

          May 22, 2014 at 12:35 pm |
      • G to the T

        "- have you ever done a hypocritical thing?"

        Whether I've ever been hypocritical in the past has no bearing on wether someone else is currently being a hypocrit. Nor would I be a hypocrit for pointing out the hypocrasy of others. If you were a serial hypocrit and then accused others of hypocrasy, you would still be a hypocrit, but not necessarily wrong.

        May 22, 2014 at 2:18 pm |
        • SciFi

          im not asking you
          the doG
          the one that yips and yaps
          are you his owner?

          May 22, 2014 at 2:21 pm |
        • G to the T

          "im not asking you"

          I'm sorry, didn't realize you were having a private conversation on a public blog. And you should know that doG calls no man "master".

          Either way, you didn't address my points. Is that because you didn't want to or just didn't have a intelligent response?

          May 22, 2014 at 2:51 pm |
    • awanderingscot

      d0G
      all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (glory=moral perfection) and i am no exception; but just because someone preaches the love of God when they themselves fall short does not necessarily make them a hypocrite. the love of God includes warning others of the consequences of rejecting Christ as well as the good news of the salvation He offers sinners. if sinners remain unregenerate, they condemn themselves. i hope this won't be true for you.

      May 22, 2014 at 9:11 pm |
  15. hal 9001

    Sheik Yerbouti: "That wanderingscot is kind of a douche."

    My analysis is complete, "Sheik Yerbouti". "awanderginscot" is, in fact, a "douche".

    May 22, 2014 at 11:53 am |
    • Sheik Yerbouti

      Thanks for crunching that data hal.

      May 22, 2014 at 11:57 am |
  16. Dyslexic doG

    "faith": believing something without a single shred of proof.

    it amazes me that religious folk see this word as a badge of honor while any logical thinking person sees it as a mark of foolishness or insanity.

    quite a disconnect.

    May 22, 2014 at 11:34 am |
    • SciFi

      .people have used "faith"
      !.or believing something without a single shred of proof
      .to prove many things
      where would science be without "faith"?
      !the stone age!
      & your statement, GUESS WHAT?
      was.a.statement.of.faith
      !UNLESS!
      ?can you prove that THEY have NO shred of proof? !or do you have faith they dont?!
      .the onus is on you.

      May 22, 2014 at 11:41 am |
      • Dyslexic doG

        logic fail!

        May 22, 2014 at 11:47 am |
        • SciFi

          .i looked at the dictionary.
          !faith can mean others things to people
          not just what you said!
          !i know faith can lead to things that CAN be proved!
          ???can you prove your statement???
          no, it was a statement of faith!

          May 22, 2014 at 11:50 am |
        • Doris

          Also I'd say a failure of expression.

          May 22, 2014 at 11:56 am |
        • SciFi

          dont knock faith til you try it
          better women than us have used it

          May 22, 2014 at 12:05 pm |
        • Alias

          try using context some time.

          May 22, 2014 at 12:53 pm |
        • neverbeenhappieratheist

          Apparently the problem this fellow has is with the definition of "faith". He wants to equate belief in something that has zero evidence, i.e. belief in an invisible spirit creature they call "God" and assign it descriptive behaviors no one has ever witnessed, such as this invisible spirit being "male" without anyone checking under its hood.

          He is mixing that definition of "faith" with the other version which is used to describe things we believe will happen based on observable phenomenon. I have "faith" that the earth will keep spinning so that I get to see the sun every 12 hours or so, though I cannot guarantee this will continue to happen. I have faith that the mass of the earth and other celestial bodies generates a force we have called "gravity" though I know it's only a theory, but there are real world observable phenomenon like the apple hitting Newtons head. I have faith that I won't float out of bed in the morning because of this invisible but observable phenomenon.

          I have no faith that there is an invisible alien creature watching me type this. I have no faith that I could close my eyes and telepathically communicate with some invisible creator being. I have no faith in them because in all of human history there is no verified observable phenomenon for the supernatural or any invisible spirits interacting with our universe. If there were we would be able to detect even the slightest divine guidance. We would have one faith or religion that would blow the statistics of supernatural interaction out of the water if any one of their God theories was true and they do actually get through to the creator with their mind messages. They wouldn't be easy to find but much like our search for planets in other solar systems we have now found tens of thousands of them by obeserving their minute effect on the visible universe. Either God/gods do not exist and thus have no traceable evidence of their interaction or they do exist but never actually interact with the physical universe. I think the former is the most logical explanation.

          May 22, 2014 at 1:05 pm |
        • SciFi

          who would you rather fly your plane?

          1 a man who has been fully trained to fly the aircraft
          he has a great flight record
          and he is catholic. it is personal and meaningful to him.
          lilke most catholics, he can think logically, or else he wouldnt be able tp captain a jet

          2 a man who has no idea how to fly the plane.
          he says the man #1 is foolish or insane because he believes things without a single shred of proof.
          this man claims #1 is seen by all logical thinking people as foolish or even insane
          (ps #2 doesn't prove the man believes something without a single shred of proof, nor has he attempted to even prove all logical thinking person sees it as a mark of foolishness or insanity ))

          QUOTE
          ""faith": believing something without a single shred of proof.

          it amazes me that religious folk see this word as a badge of honor while any logical thinking person sees it as a mark of foolishness or insanity.

          quite a disconnect." +Dyslexic doG
          /QUOTE

          i have faith in man #1, not #2
          how bout you?

          (c) science – kicking illogical dogs in the butt since the begining of life

          May 22, 2014 at 1:24 pm |
      • James XCIX

        SciFi – I agree that many things besides religion require faith for belief. However, the degree of faith required to believe different assertions can be vastly different, and can be thought of as being inversely proportional to the amount of evidence supporting an assertion.

        May 22, 2014 at 12:00 pm |
        • SciFi

          !Exactly!

          May 22, 2014 at 12:03 pm |
        • James XCIX

          I have to agree with Dyslexic doG that believing something that requires a high degree of faith is foolish.

          May 22, 2014 at 12:06 pm |
        • SciFi

          you have faith in that

          May 22, 2014 at 12:44 pm |
        • SciFi

          is it insanity?

          May 22, 2014 at 12:45 pm |
        • James XCIX

          Not necessarily, but certainly irrational.

          May 22, 2014 at 12:48 pm |
        • SciFi

          .suggesting that they are all insane:
          is irrational

          May 22, 2014 at 12:54 pm |
        • James XCIX

          I didn't suggest that.

          May 22, 2014 at 12:59 pm |
        • SciFi

          ! no kidding !
          .im pointing it out, that dude is completely irrational
          .kind of hypocritical of him to be calling others irrational, eh?
          !!!not that anyone is sayin he IS logical (well, i guess he says he is)!!!

          May 22, 2014 at 1:01 pm |
        • James XCIX

          I don't know who you are talking about–it it's Dyslexic doG, I agree with his original point, except perhaps having a more nuanced definition of faith.

          May 22, 2014 at 1:09 pm |
        • SciFi

          .
          so all logical thinking people sees faith as a mark of foolishness or insanity?
          no logical thinking person has never had faith?
          .that is what he is saying.
          .
          .the logic in his statement is weak.
          .you agree with his premise, but the logic isnt there

          May 22, 2014 at 1:15 pm |
        • James XCIX

          I'll refer you back to my earlier post concerning various beliefs requiring vastly various levels of belief. Some beliefs require no faith or very little faith, some beliefs require more.

          In my opinion, it is not rational to believe something that requires very high levels of faith (but not being rational does not need to mean insane). Many believers would agree with me and, as Dd pointed out, are proud to believe in something that requires so much faith.

          May 22, 2014 at 1:28 pm |
        • SciFi

          in my travels most dont seem so proud or wear a badge of honor
          most say it is personal
          like how i feel about my beliefs
          doG seems to be the one wearing a badge and acting proud about somethign, eh?

          May 22, 2014 at 1:32 pm |
        • James XCIX

          Sorry, that last reply should have said "various beliefs requiring vastly various levels of faith."

          May 22, 2014 at 1:30 pm |
        • James XCIX

          People can act or believe irrationally in some situations but not in others. Irrationality does not have to be a constant state.

          May 22, 2014 at 1:44 pm |
        • SciFi

          people can not be logical thinking people all the time.
          which further debunks doG illogical and irrational post
          .do youi just agree with it philosophically?
          but it cant be proven. it is jsut your guys strong feelilngs?

          May 22, 2014 at 1:46 pm |
        • James XCIX

          "people can not be logical thinking people all the time"

          Agreed–we are also driven by emotions, after all, and my guess is that most people who are religious approach religion on an emotional basis. But I'm missing what point you are trying to make.

          May 22, 2014 at 1:52 pm |
        • SciFi

          .doG statement is made from an emotional plea.
          .not a logical thinking conclusion.
          logical thinking people dont wear their opinions like a badge of honor like he does.
          they jsut dont. he is a wannabe

          May 22, 2014 at 1:57 pm |
        • James XCIX

          "doG statement is made from an emotional plea"

          I disagree. Non-belief comes from a rational, non-emotional perspective–it's belief that's usually from the emotional perspective.

          May 22, 2014 at 2:00 pm |
        • SciFi

          he does not act rational or non-emotional.
          non-belief in a higher power can come from mental deficiencies, 2
          there is a good and bad side to everything.

          May 22, 2014 at 2:03 pm |
        • James XCIX

          "he does not act rational or non-emotional."

          On the topic of religion, I believe he does.

          "non-belief in a higher power can come from mental deficiencies, 2"

          Lots of conditions can come from mental deficiencies– including susceptibility to believe anything someone tells you.

          May 22, 2014 at 2:10 pm |
        • SciFi

          =susceptibility to believe anything someone tells you.=
          that is why i don't listen to irrational dogs who hypocritically call otehr people irrational
          i question him
          and he disappears

          May 22, 2014 at 2:11 pm |
        • SciFi

          let me guess –
          your beliefs – rational, non-emotional perspective
          others faith beliefs – foolish, insane
          !your personal descrioption!

          May 22, 2014 at 2:06 pm |
        • James XCIX

          "your beliefs – rational, non-emotional perspective
          others faith beliefs – foolish, insane"

          Not exactly. Yes, I believe my non-beliefs regarding religions are rational and the beliefs of believers are irrational.

          And as I said, many believers would proudly agree their beliefs are irrational and based solely on faith.

          May 22, 2014 at 2:17 pm |
        • SciFi

          most dont

          May 22, 2014 at 2:19 pm |
        • James XCIX

          On what rational basis do you base your religious belief?

          May 22, 2014 at 2:23 pm |
        • SciFi

          im not religious

          May 22, 2014 at 2:29 pm |
        • James XCIX

          And do you attribute that to rational reasons or emotional reasons?

          May 22, 2014 at 2:30 pm |
        • SciFi

          i let others tell me that
          im not going to declare myself rational and superior like you
          yuck

          May 22, 2014 at 2:33 pm |
        • James XCIX

          "i let others tell me that"

          That strikes me as an odd position to take.

          "m not going to declare myself rational and superior like you"

          Why do you feel that rational implies superior?

          May 22, 2014 at 2:35 pm |
        • SciFi

          i don['t
          you behave like a superior person
          you support doGs superiorty complex in putting down others
          but u get excited when someone suggests your not as ratoinal as you say youare

          May 22, 2014 at 3:21 pm |
        • James XCIX

          "you behave like a superior person... but u get excited when someone suggests your not as ratoinal as you say youare"

          Can you point out any of my posts that support either of those assertions?

          May 22, 2014 at 3:30 pm |
        • neverbeenhappieratheist

          I have faith I will see the sun appear in the sky to the east and then set in the west. In the past humans who observed this but had no way to find out what was really going on came up with explanations for the phenomenons like it's some golden chariot being flown through the sky each day. Now many people had faith in that but were in fact wrong, but I can certainly understand why they would invent an explanation.

          However, faith in God requires one to not look at any one obeservable phenomenon and come up with an explanation but just looking at the entire universe we can detect so far and saying "Without any way to prove otherwise, i'll believe it's a golden chariot being flown through the universe each day."

          Now it's true, it took hundreds of years before we were able to get beyond our atmosphere and confirm the sun was not in fact a golden chariot, and it may take hundreds or maybe thousands of years before we have an understanding of the universe where we can eliminate the faithfuls invented explanations. However, based on how many flawed perceptions and explanations humans have had for the observable universe and how many time they were right (pretty close to 0%) I have no faith in any other humans baseless belief in invisible spirit creatures being our creators.

          May 22, 2014 at 1:37 pm |
      • Dyslexic doG

        Doris, I think English may be SciFi's third or fourth language. Don't be too hard on him/her.

        May 22, 2014 at 12:01 pm |
        • SciFi

          HEY:

          – have you ever done a hypocritical thing?

          a. say yes: you are being a hypocrite for criticizing felllow hypocrites

          b. say no: you are the 1st person to never do a hypocritical thing -congratulations.

          1. please support your conclusion with evidence

          May 22, 2014 at 12:46 pm |
      • Doc Vestibule

        There is a difference between "faith" in the religious sense and "faith" in the "reasonable expectation" sense.
        For example, When I am a passenger on a plane or when I order food from a restaurant, I have a reasonable expectation of safety, not blind faith. I know, for instance, that there are professional, educational and legal requirements for becoming a pilot or a food handler. I know that there are safeguards in place to punish those who violate those requirements. I therefore know that it is in the pilot or food handler's best self-interest to execute their duties in a professional matter. This doesn't mean that I have faith that said safeguards are always effective, but I have a reasonable expectation based on personal experience that the likelihood of danger is low.

        Now compare this with faith as religious dogma.
        Is a Catholic's faith in the veracity of transubstantiation reasonable? Is it rational to have faith that wafers and wine magically transform into Christ's literal flesh and blood? But that is the kind of faith that religions demand.

        Do you see the distinction now between faith based on practical, quantifiable experience and faith based on ex-cathedra dogma?

        May 22, 2014 at 12:09 pm |
        • SciFi

          if you were flying, would you have faith in:
          . dys.doggy flying your plane
          . or a trained pilot that is catholic who, according to dys.doggy believes things without a single shred of proof?

          . whos opinoin should i trust? doggy?

          seriousaly?

          May 22, 2014 at 12:20 pm |
        • SciFi

          if you got on a plane and dys.dog said –
          the pilot is nutz, he believes in unproven things!
          .You ask more.
          and dys.dog said
          well he is catholic.
          would you have faith to let the catholic fly. he is fully trained. aced his tests. has a perfect record.
          ?
          or would you listen to the dumb dog and say faith is the mark of insanity?
          ?
          ?
          ?

          May 22, 2014 at 12:30 pm |
    • Sheik Yerbouti

      That is a good way to put it.

      May 22, 2014 at 11:41 am |
      • SciFi

        faith
        fāTH/
        noun
        noun: faith

        1.
        complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
        "this restores one's faith in politicians"
        synonyms: trust, belief, confidence, conviction; More
        optimism, hopefulness, hope
        "he justified his boss's faith in him"
        antonyms: mistrust

        May 22, 2014 at 11:54 am |
        • Sheik Yerbouti

          Why are you....nevermind.

          May 22, 2014 at 11:54 am |
        • SciFi

          i have !faith! in unproven things, like the good of humanity
          .love of fellow beings.

          May 22, 2014 at 11:57 am |
  17. SciFi

    some of you guys LOVE ...empiricism...
    not SCIENCE...
    if you believe your – religion – beliefs – atheism – agnosticism – theism – gnosticism – COMES FROM SCIENCE:
    you are fooling yourself.

    "EXPERIMENTAL SCIENCE IS THE ONLY WAY TO KNOW SOMETHING FOR SURE," said the self-righteous science lover.

    i ask: WHAT WAS THE SCIENTIFIC EXPERIMENT THAT DEMONSTRATED THAT EXPERIMENTAL SCIENCE IS THE ONLY WAY TO KNOW SOMETHING FOR SURE?

    "................", said the self-righteous science lover.

    May 22, 2014 at 11:31 am |
    • Sheik Yerbouti

      Huh?

      May 22, 2014 at 11:42 am |
      • SciFi

        a certain dude told me on here:
        "!EXPERIMENTAL SCIENCE IS THE ONLY WAY TO KNOW SOMETHING FOR SURE!"
        baffled i asked him:
        "?WHAT WAS THE SCIENTIFIC EXPERIMENT THAT DEMONSTRATED THAT EXPERIMENTAL SCIENCE IS THE ONLY WAY TO KNOW SOMETHING FOR SURE?"
        .
        .
        .
        & he disappeared

        May 22, 2014 at 11:52 am |
        • Sheik Yerbouti

          Huh?

          May 22, 2014 at 11:55 am |
        • SciFi

          !experimental science is not the only way to know something for sure!
          .faith a& other methods can lead to you to know something for sure 2.

          May 22, 2014 at 12:02 pm |
        • Alias

          Another woman who can't figure out context.
          let me help: Is 8 inches big?
          Do you have faith that 10 inches would be too much?

          May 22, 2014 at 1:03 pm |
    • Dyslexic doG

      unintelligible ...

      May 22, 2014 at 11:52 am |
      • SciFi

        Empiricism in the philosophy of science emphasizes evidence, especially as discovered in experiments. It is a fundamental part of the scientific method that all hypotheses and theories must be tested against observations of the natural world rather than resting solely on a priori reasoning, intuition, or revelation.
        Empiricism, often used by natural scientists, asserts that "knowledge is based on experience" and that "knowledge is tentative and probabilistic, subject to continued revision and falsification."One of the epistemological tenets is that sensory experience creates knowledge. The scientific method, including experiments and validated measurement tools, guides empirical research.

        May 22, 2014 at 11:56 am |
        • Dyslexic doG

          copy and paste ...

          May 22, 2014 at 12:06 pm |
        • SciFi

          HEY:

          – have you ever done a hypocritical thing?

          a. say yes: you are being a hypocrite for criticizing felllow hypocrites

          b. say no: you are the 1st person to never do a hypocritical thing -congratulations.

          May 22, 2014 at 12:46 pm |
  18. zhilla1980wasp

    1st law of thermal dynamics" energy can not be created nor destroyed"; thus if is can be created, nor destroy then energy is immortal/eternal......choose the word you prefer.

    E=MC2 explains energy to matter conversion....which also covers the destruction of matter which returns back to it's original state.

    2nd law of thermal dynamics covers the change in the state of energy from potential to kinetic and back to potential.

    so long story short, the universe has always been here in either one form or another.
    no gods have ever been required, nor will they ever be required seeing the universe adheres to one major law:

    all interactions happen on the atomic level; thus everything interacts according to the "push/pull" of the electromagnetic fields surrounding them.
    two positive protons won't ever get near each other to create an atom without an electron nearby.
    ------–

    a god would violate the 1st law of thermal dynamics by inessence adding energy to the universe.
    a being that powerful would cause the destruction of the universe; thus seeing the laws of physics can't be violated, logic states no god exists.

    any attempt to violate the laws of physics (i.e. timetravel) would simply not work, which means any violation to the laws of physics simply doesn't exist.
    hint on timetravel, if you went back or forward your body being made up of energy would violate the first law of thermal dynamics (energy was just created) thus timetravel is impossible........................... however i know a way to side step that.

    May 22, 2014 at 11:24 am |
    • otoh2

      zhilla,

      "timetravel is impossible........................... however i know a way to side step that."

      Would love to hear your work-around solution.

      I know very little about physics, but I'm thinking maybe (someday) some kind of virtual reality type deal?

      May 22, 2014 at 11:41 am |
      • zhilla1980wasp

        the only way for time travel to be possible is to be capable of knowing the exact "x-y-z" axis along with the exact point in time that object was there.
        (atomic time, not the conception of human time.)

        to side step the first law you would have to swap an object of equal atomic mass as yourself.....or whatever you wish to port back, between locations.
        -however if it's a living being (i.e. another human) to avoid contaminating the known time stream you would have to isolate the object/subject so that it had no clear idea of what was around it.-

        if at any time energy is gained or lost in our universe a few possible outcomes may be possible:
        1) nothing happens because whatever devise you use just wouldn't work due to the equations not adding up.
        2) everything resets to the point of the abnormality, thus it would appear nothing happened so "back to the drawing board"
        3) we all go BOOM. (worst possible situation)

        May 22, 2014 at 11:53 am |
        • otoh2

          zhilla,

          Interesting. As I said, it's beyond my ken, but Go, Science!

          May 22, 2014 at 1:06 pm |
  19. SciFi

    really great science is about thinking “out of the box”
    it is about thinking in a way that one would consider “illogical”
    the greatest scientific theories were the result of irrational thinking of great minds, who went outside the “logic” of their time
    science is not only physics.
    .it is also the exploration of human affairs.
    .the attempt to explain why humans fight each other.
    .the struggle to understand what “bad and good” is.
    .Anthropology, sociology and law are fields of science in the same way cosmology is.
    !Science is not only about evidence.

    !Many people confuse science with:
    “empiricism”!
    .that is the philosophical dogma that all valid knowledge can be based on human experience only.
    !these people tend to forget that even cosmologists and physicists dream about parallel worlds or alternate universes, hypotheses that can never be proved or disproved by evidence!

    !!!& it is of great importance to understand that many scientific breakthroughs have been conducted via totally illogical and “unscientific” (at least according to the common definition of “scientific”) bursts of genious inspiration!!!!

    May 22, 2014 at 11:22 am |
    • SciFi

      we must use exact science carefully and always have in mind its limitations
      humans are more than electrons and protons and this calls for the simultaneous use of other ways of THINKING
      .not only observation and induction
      .there are other ways that also help in searching for the truth
      ! & believing in one thing only can be really dangerous
      ! & believing that only the ‘SCIENTIFIC’ way of thinking exists can eliminate:
      .humanism
      .morality
      .altruism from the world
      !!!!!Many human values are not understandable by science!!!!!
      & More philosphy
      & less ‘scientistism’
      in todays society of gadgets will prove:
      !!!!more than usefu!!!!!

      May 22, 2014 at 11:25 am |
      • zhilla1980wasp

        science explains at times we have actions that would be considered "insane" at times.
        examples:
        throwing yourself in front of a car to save another; namely someone you love. love (territorialism, self preservation, and reproduction) seems totally insane...........however if your offspring survive and you lose your life; your brains knows that you will live on through your offspring.
        emotions are insane and drive people to do insane things.

        humans aren't heartless, odd term but ok seeing the "heart" has nothing to do with emotions which come from your mind.
        science shows us how things work and explains some of the why.

        as far as following science would make the world "not care" is bull, science explains why we have the urge to protect our fellow species member. religion gives us a reason to ignore those impulses.

        May 22, 2014 at 11:42 am |
        • SciFi

          both are capable of explaining why we have the urge to protect our fellow species member
          & both can give us a reason to ignore those impulses
          ?how can that not be so?
          .im not religious, nor into scientism.
          !but that statementmakes NO sense!

          May 22, 2014 at 11:48 am |
        • zhilla1980wasp

          @scifi: you mean this statement?
          " religion gives us a reason to ignore those impulses."
          or the whole thing?

          if something is deemed less important as yourself (i.e. an animal) then why save it? what reason would a religious person have for caring what happens to another animal or human for that matter?
          animals were put here for humans..........right?
          women were created for men.........right?
          children are simply the offspring god told you to breed......right? (i.e. father offering daughter to angry mob or simply selling them.

          religion has lots of things that are "beneth men" so why would they be important enough to trade your life for? religiously there isn't one.

          fields of science show that we want to protect those close to our genetic line because we want to survive as a species. if we allowed our fellow humans to die without a fight, then we would simply go extinct.
          fields of science show how beautiful the universe is and how amazing it is that our ancestors survived for us to make it to this point in evolution...............best part we aren't done evolving. humans will continue to adapt to our enviroments.
          how we will look in another billion years would be amazing to see as a modern human.

          May 22, 2014 at 12:03 pm |
        • SciFi

          science & religion can both do that.
          not ALL religions has lots of things that are "beneth men" so why would they be important enough to trade your life for
          some seriously don't

          what fields of science show that we want to protect those close to our genetic line because we want to survive as a species?

          what u are saying is not scientfic!

          "The Goal of Science is understanding lawful relations among natural phenomena.
          Religion is a way of life within a larger framework of meaning."
          (Ian Barbour, "Religion and Science," pg. 204)

          "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." (Albert Einstein) "

          Religion is poetry plus, not science minus."(Krister Stendahl)

          "Religion is the art of the poetic. Science is the art of the provable. Politics is the art of the possible." (Paul H. Carr) "

          Science can purify religion from error and supersttion;
          religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes.
          Each can draw the other into a wider world, a world in which both can flourish....
          We need each other to be what we must be, what we are called to be." (-Pope John Paul II)

          "Culture (science) is the form of religion; Religion is the substance of culture (science)."
          (Theologian Paul Tillich)

          "Traditional religious creation stories and evolution are complementary.
          Science and religion together can weave a rich tapestry of new meaning for our age."
          (Theologian Philip Hefner)

          "Science is an effort to understand the creation.
          Biblical religion involves our relation to the Creator.
          Since we can learn about the Creator from his creation, religion can learn from science."
          (Paul H. Carr)

          "There is more RELIGION in men's SCIENCE than there is SCIENCE in their RELIGION"
          (David Henry Thoreau, "A Week on the Concord and Merrimack Rivers.")

          "Science makes major contributions to minor needs.
          Religion, however small its successes, is at least at work on the things that matter most."
          (Justice Oliver W. Holmes)

          COMPLEMENTARITY:
          Light is both WAVE-LIKE & PARTICLE-LIKE. (Physicist Niels Bohr)
          Life is BOTH, AND:
          STRUCTURED LOGIC (logos, left brain) and MEANINGFUL STORY (mythos, right brain)
          Truth is both OBJECTIVE & SUBJECTIVE
          God is both IMMANENT & TRANSCENDENT.
          SCIENCE complements RELIGION (Physicist, Paul H. Carr)

          May 22, 2014 at 12:09 pm |
        • zhilla1980wasp

          scifi: science-fiction, nice screen name for a person that doesn't understand science.
          not scientific?

          research more science them get back to me.

          May 22, 2014 at 12:14 pm |
        • lngtrmthnkr

          @scifi Im wondering if you may have perfect recall, I don't know how else you could retain so many quotes. I do not remember what I said a little while ago. Of course ,I'm getting up in years.

          May 22, 2014 at 1:46 pm |
        • SciFi

          use google
          zhilla1980wasp
          not everyone agrees with you
          where are you quotes on google?

          May 22, 2014 at 2:31 pm |
  20. Dyslexic doG

    I am occasionally accused of being a "godless hypocrite" by good, gentle, jesus following folk ...

    And I may be godless ... which is a compliment really ... and is all that "atheist" means ... but I am not a hypocrite.

    I think being hypocritical is when people say that they believe an ancient story book is the word of their god, but then they don't live their lives by EVERY LETTER of it. That's hypocritical.

    May 22, 2014 at 10:26 am |
    • zhilla1980wasp

      yeah that about sums them up.

      the whole "love thy neighbor" only applies to the neighbors like themselves; thus they are hypocrits.
      wanting to be able to "practice" their religion yet fighting to restrict others rights; thus make them hypocrits.
      fighting for "pro-life" when they don't care enough to help other children in dangerous situations; thus makes them hypocrits.

      the list could go on and on.

      May 22, 2014 at 11:10 am |
    • Lucifer's Evil Twin

      Hypocrisy – 9 out of 10 cars with the stupid fish cult symbol are driven by self-centered douchebags

      May 22, 2014 at 11:12 am |
    • Lucifer's Evil Twin

      Hypocrisy – If a general contractor shows up at your house to provide an estimate... and they have Jesus stickers and crap on their truck... If you trust them you are a fool.

      May 22, 2014 at 11:22 am |
      • SciFi

        wutttt?
        that is not what hypocrisy is
        that might be the dumbest thing ever posted

        May 22, 2014 at 11:36 am |
        • Lucifer's Evil Twin

          Christian sticker implies a 'good' 'honest' contractor... which is mostly a marketing lie... that is hypocrisy.

          May 22, 2014 at 11:41 am |
        • SciFi

          it is not hypocrisy.
          unless he says
          ! i hate dishonest contractors
          ! & then proves himself to be a dishonest contractor.
          ur just sounding smallminded
          !or! else you really don't know:
          what hypocrisy is
          the sticker could be there for reasons u dont know

          May 22, 2014 at 11:45 am |
        • Lucifer's Evil Twin

          Oh my god, they killed Kenny! Those bastards!

          May 22, 2014 at 11:53 am |
        • SciFi

          HEY:

          – have you ever done a hypocritical thing?

          a. say yes: you are being a hypocrite for criticizing the man with the sticker

          b. say no: you are the 1st person to never do a hypocritical thing

          May 22, 2014 at 12:00 pm |
    • SciFi

      HEY:

      – have you ever done a hypocritical thing?

      a. say yes: you are being a hypocrite for criticizing felllow hypocrites

      b. say no: you are the 1st person to never do a hypocritical thing -congratulations.

      May 22, 2014 at 12:00 pm |
    • Akira

      hypocrite[ hip-uh-krit ]
      noun
      1. a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, especially a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.
      2. a person who feigns some desirable or publicly approved attitude, especially one whose private life, opinions, or statements belie his or her public statements.

      May 22, 2014 at 5:36 pm |
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.