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May 22nd, 2014
07:04 PM ET
Pope Francis in the Holy Land: 5 things to knowBy Daniel Burke, CNN Belief Blog Editor [twitter-follow screen_name='BurkeCNN'] (CNN) - So, a rabbi, a sheikh and a pope travel to the Holy Land… It might sound like the start of a trite joke, but it’s actually the entourage for one of the most highly anticipated papal trips in recent history. As Pope Francis heads to Jordan, Bethlehem and Jerusalem this weekend, he’s bringing along two old friends from Argentina: Rabbi Abraham Skorka, who co-wrote a book with the Pope, and Sheikh Omar Abboud, who leads Argentina’s Muslim community. The Vatican says it’s the first time that a pope’s official entourage has included interfaith leaders. In a region roiled by competing religious and political visions, Francis’ chosen companions communicate an unmistakable message, church officials said. “It’s highly symbolic, of course,” said the Rev. Thomas Rosica, a consultant to the Vatican press office. “But it also sends a pragmatic message to Muslims, Christians and Jews that it’s possible to work together - not as a system of checks and balances but as friends.” The visit to the Holy Land is the first for Francis as leader of the Roman Catholic Church, and just the fourth for any pontiff in the modern era. With so much at stake - the stalled negotiations between Israelis and Palestinians, the plight of Christian refugees - the Pope’s every word, gesture and photo-op will be microscopically examined. Already, some conservative Israelis are advocating against the Pope’s visit, scrawling anti-Christian graffiti on Catholic buildings in Jerusalem and planning protests outside papal events in Jerusalem. While the protesters form a fringe minority, they underscore the tensions that simmer around the Pope’s short but substantial trip. With those challenges in mind, here are five key things to pay particular attention to. 1. The Pope’s schedule makes Rick Steves look lazy. It’s a good thing the 77-year-old pontiff rested up this week. Francis will be traveling to three cities, shaking hands with dozens of religious and political leaders, celebrating several Catholic Masses and delivering at least 13 speeches and homilies – all in less than 36 hours. In Jordan, the Pope will meet with King Abdullah II, greet refugees from Iraq and Syria, celebrate Mass and visit the Jordan River, where many Christians believe Jesus was baptized. Crowds welcome Pope Francis to Jordan at start of Holy Land trip In Jerusalem, the Pope will meet the city’s grand mufti and chief rabbis, visit the Western Wall and Yad Vashem (a memorial to the Holocaust), lay a wreath on the grave of the founder of modern Zionism, and sign a joint declaration with the head of Eastern Orthodox Christians. He’ll also confer with Israel’s Prime Minister and President, chat with Catholic seminarians and celebrate Mass at the site of the Last Supper. Got all that? “I’m amazed at what they are trying to do in such a short amount of time,” Rosica said. 2. The Pope says the trip is religious, not political. Francis has called the reasons behind his Holy Land excursion “strictly religious.” Earlier, he had described it as a “pilgrimage for prayer.” Perhaps the popular pontiff was trying to tamp down expectations that his visit could solve the region’s seemingly intractable political problems. But the trip does have religious roots, church officials say. At the Pope’s installation in 2013, Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, the spiritual leader of some 300 million Orthodox Christians worldwide, invited Francis to Jerusalem to mark the 50th anniversary of a historic meeting between their predecessors. “It’s hard to understand now what a breakthrough that meeting was,” said the Rev. Alexander Karloutsos, an Eastern Orthodox priest who is helping organize part of the Pope's trip. At the time, the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches, the world’s two largest Christian communities, weren’t even on speaking terms, said Karloutsos. Marriages celebrated in one church would not be recognized by the other. On Sunday, Francis and Bartholomew will sign a joint declaration outlining common principles and a potential path forward to greater unity. “These people don’t sign things lightly,” Karloutsos said. “This is a very substantial document.” Francis and Bartholomew also will celebrate a joint religious service at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem on Sunday, the first time the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic leaders have held such a service in 50 years, according to Karloutsos. 3. The ‘people’s Pope’ will strike again He has celebrated Masses for migrants who drowned while trying to sail to Europe, visited Brazil’s most dangerous neighborhoods and welcomed homeless men in Rome to his birthday party. In the Holy Land, Pope Francis is again expected to draw the world’s attention to the poor and downtrodden; he has refused to travel, as most leaders do in the Middle East, in an armored car. In Jordan, where some 600,000 Syrians have fled since the start of the civil war in 2011, the Pope will meet refugees and disabled young people before delivering a speech at a church in Bethany. On the West Bank, he will greet children from several Palestinian refugee camps. Palestinian Archbishop Atallah Hanna, who is Eastern Orthodox (as are most Christians in the Middle East) said he hopes Pope Francis will “see the suffering of the Palestinian people.” “We are misrepresented and are unfortunately seen by some to be criminals and terrorists,” Hanna said. “I hope they can see that we are a civilized, peaceful and well-educated people seeking freedom and a better future.” John Esposito, an expert on international relations at Georgetown University, said the Pope’s meeting with Christians in Bethlehem could open some eyes about the Israel-Palestinian standoff. “It will underscore the fact that it’s not just a Muslim-Jewish conflict,” he said. 4. Conservative Israelis are nervous. In the weeks before the Pope’s arrival, graffiti calling Jesus “garbage” and calling for “death to Arabs and Christians” has been scrawled on Christian buildings in Jerusalem. Ultra-Orthodox Jews have planned to protest outside the site of the Last Supper - known as the Cenacle - because it is also said to house King David’s tomb. They believe Christians should not hold religious services, as Pope Francis plans to do on Sunday, so close to a Jewish holy site, and they worry that Israel will turn the Cenacle over to the Vatican during the Pope’s visit, according to reports. Jerusalem's five most contested sites On Wednesday, Israeli police issued restraining orders on several right-wing Jewish activists, according to The New York Times, ordering them to stay away from the Pope during his visit. Rabbi David Rosen, international director for interreligious affairs at the American Jewish Congress, told CNN that the troublemakers are fringe figures who “don’t deserve anything like the attention they’ve gotten.” “The vast majority of Israelis are looking forward to the Pope’s visit, if they’re even aware of it yet,” said Rosen, who is in Jerusalem to participate in papal events. The rabbi said he is slightly chagrined, though, that Francis will not hold an interfaith service with Muslim and Jewish leaders in Jerusalem, as Pope Benedict XVI did in 2009. “I am personally disappointed that this opportunity to demonstrate in actions and not simply in words the possibility of bringing together Christians, Muslims and Jews is not on his schedule.” The Vatican says that, because the Pope is traveling with Rabbi Skorka and Sheikh Abboud, the whole trip is essentially an interfaith gathering. 5. Muslims view Francis as a welcome change. Pope Benedict XVI didn’t have the best relationship with Muslims, said Georgetown's Esposito, who is traveling to Jordan to meet with Francis on Saturday. The former Pope quoted anti-Islamic remarks made by a 14th-century Christian emperor in a speech in 2006, leading to Muslim riots. Benedict apologized, but later baptized a prominent Muslim-born journalist, which some Islamic leaders called an unnecessary provocation. In contrast, one of Francis’ first interfaith steps as Pope was to wash the feet of two Muslims during a Holy Thursday ceremony in 2013, a move noted throughout the Islamic world, Esposito said. “What popes do is as symbolically important as what they say,” Esposito said, “and Muslims have been very impressed with Francis.” The Pope also called on Western nations to find a peaceful solution to Syria’s civil war, rather than use military force. On this trip to the Holy Land, Francis is expected to call for a Palestinian state, which has long been Vatican policy, but will surely upset some Israelis. That can't-please-both dilemma shows how hard it can be to navigate the Holy Land for any world leader, even one with the charisma and political acumen of Francis. Bringing a sheikh and rabbi along may help buffer the Pope from some criticism, but ultimately, all eyes will be on the man in white. (CNN's Roba Alhenawi contributed to this report.)
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The CNN Belief Blog covers the faith angles of the day's biggest stories, from breaking news to politics to entertainment, fostering a global conversation about the role of religion and belief in readers' lives. It's edited by CNN's Daniel Burke with contributions from Eric Marrapodi and CNN's worldwide news gathering team.  |
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There sure is a lot of discussion here about the motives of certain individuals in the past century. Of course it was only several years ago that certain Christians started quite a nasty campaign in Africa.
From the Southern Povery Law Center:
==============
Scott Lively
Date of Birth: 1957
Most Recent Group: Abiding Truth Ministries
Ideology: Anti-LGBT
A veteran of the anti-gay movement, Lively has been actively propagandizing against LGBT people since the early 1990s, but he's perhaps best-known for co-writing the thoroughly discredited, Holocaust revisionist book The Pink Swastika: Hom.ose.xuality in the Nazi Party (1995), which claims that the Nazi party was full of gay men who, because of their "sava.gery," were able to carry out the Holocaust. In 2007, he co-founded the virulently anti-gay Watchmen on the Walls, an organization currently active more in Eastern Europe than the U.S. More recently, he got a new claim to fame when he presented his virulent views about hom.ose.xuality at a 2009 anti-gay conference in Uganda that is widely believed to have played a role in the drafting of Uganda's notorious "kill the gays" bill. Lively is president of Abiding Truth Ministries and director of Redemption Gate Mission Society, both currently based in Springfield, Mass.
In His Own Words
"Because no matter what, [hom.ose.xuality] is still abnormal, wrong, harmful and perverse."
– Eugene Register-Guard, Nov. 1, 1992
"There is no question that hom.ose.xuality figures prominently in the history of the Holocaust. … The first years of terrorism against the Jews were carried out by the hom.ose.xuals of the SA."
– The Pink Swastika, 1996
"It is not mere coincidence that the emperors of Rome in its horrific final days were hom.ose.xual; that Adolf Hitler's inner circle were mostly hom.ose.xual; and that nearly all of the most prolific serial killers in U.S. history were hom.ose.xual. It is not mere coincidence that America's cultural decline parallels the rise of 'gay rights.’"
– "Agents of the Death Agenda," May 1996 edition of Life Advocate magazine, quoted in "Northwest Update," Coalition for Human Dignity, June 1996.
"Hom.ose.xuality is thus biologically (and to varying degrees morally) equivalent to pedophilia, sado-masochism, bestiality and many other forms of deviant behavior."
– “Deciphering 'Gay' Word-Speak and Language of Confusion," May 2002
"Hom.ose.xuality is a personality disorder that involves various, often dangerous se.xual addictions and aggressive, anti-social impulses."
– “Letter to the Russian People," 2007
"The gay movement is an evil insti.tution [whose] goal is to defeat the marriage-based society and replace it with a culture of se.xual promiscuity in which there’s no restrictions on se.xual conduct except the principle of mutual choice."
– Conference in Kampala, Uganda, March 2009
“We need to bring back public discussion of AIDS as a ‘gay’ disease, pederasty as [sic] major subculture of male hom.ose.xuality, mental health problems and domestic violence as major problems associated with lesbianism, the increasing recruitment of children into a hom.ose.xual ident.ity through experimentation with ‘gay’ se.x, etc. – all the truths we stopped telling because the other side screamed so loudly about them.”
– WorldNetDaily, September 2012
Background
Scott D. Lively first came to light as an anti-LGBT activist in the early 1990s in Oregon, when he was involved with the Oregon Citizens Alliance (OCA) in a variety of capacities: executive director, finance coordinator, finance director, and communications director. The OCA had (and still has) a reputation as a vitriolic and virulently anti-LGBT organization under the leadership of ex-hippie and Vietnam veteran Lon Mabon, who left his leftist roots and became a born-again Christian.
The OCA was supported by Oregon's branch of Pat Robertson's Christian Coalition and worked constantly to put draconian and far-reaching anti-LGBT measures on the state ballot. The most notorious of those was Ballot Measure 9 (1992), which would have amended the state consti.tution to prohibit "all governments in Oregon" from using monies or properties to "promote, encourage or facilitate hom.ose.xuality, pedophilia, sadism or masochism." These behaviors, the text of the measure said, "are abnormal, wrong, unnatural and perverse and they are to be discouraged and avoided."
To support its stance, the OCA and its supporters disseminated inflammatory pamphlets and videos, like "The Gay Agenda," which linked hom.ose.xuality to evil, sickness, and disease. The group took out radio and newspaper ads that often linked hom.ose.xuality to pedophilia, and claimed that LGBT people were seeking "special rights" and that hom.ose.xuality is a "public health menace."
The tactics used by Lively, the OCA and its supporters were encouraged by the months-earlier passage of a stringent anti-LGBT ordinance in Springfield, Ore. Measure 9, however, engulfed the entire state in a bitter and brutal political battle that galvanized both sides, divided communities, unleashed anti-LGBT harassment and acts of violence, and finally ended with the measure falling to defeat, 56.5 percent to 43.5 percent.
Lively became known as a prominent spokesman for the OCA during its bruising campaigns, and he was earning a reputation for belligerence, as well. In a 1991 incident, he allegedly threw lesbian photographer Catherine Stauffer against a wall at a screening of an OCA video and then dragged her out of the room by her hair. She sued both Lively and the OCA, and a jury ruled that Lively used unreasonable force and awarded Stauffer $30,000.
In the wake of the Measure 9 loss, the OCA drafted yet another anti-gay ballot initiative. Measure 13 toned down the rhetoric of its predecessor, but its intent was roughly the same. It would have prohibited state and local governments from protecting LGBT people from discrimination, and it would have overturned anti-discrimination ordinances in four Oregon cities.
Lively was active in this campaign, as well, and this as well as other OCA campaigns proved the inspiration for what would become his Holocaust revision book, The Pink Swastika. According to the Eugene Register-Guard, Lively had allegedly been making public statements that linked gay men to the Holocaust, and supporters of the OCA had included wording in a voters' guide that urged voters to "stand with the true victims of the holocaust [sic]" and vote yes on the measure.
Amid a backlash over these claims, the OCA released a statement in which Mabon claimed that Lively had "gotten tired" of being called "Nazi" because of the OCA's opposition to LGBT rights. So, Mabon claimed, Lively began to research the history of the Nazi Party and found, according to Mabon, "that many Nazi leaders were hom.ose.xuals and that the Nazi Party was closely tied to pre-Nazi Germany's gay-rights movement." Mabon denied, however, that Lively had linked the Holocaust to gay men, though according to the Register-Guard, Lively stated in a program that had aired several months earlier on public access television that "Ho.mose.xuals created the Nazi Party, and everything that we think about when we think about Nazis actually comes from the minds and perverted ideas of hom.ose.xuals." Gay men, Lively continued in the program, "were the foundation of the Nazi Party."
Lively eventually published these ideas in The Pink Swastika with co-author Kevin Abrams, who had published an article ti.tled "The Other Side of the Pink Triangle" in 1994 in Peter LaBarbara's Lambda Report (now defunct; LaBarbera currently heads Americans for Truth about Hom.ose.xuality). Abrams is a Canadian Orthodox Jew who was last living in Israel. The book made Lively's career as an anti-LGBT activist, and though actual historians have dismissed it and refuted it, the anti-LGBT right continues to peddle it and its ideas.
The idea that hom.ose.xuality has been a "dark force" in history is one that Lively fervently believes and put into print in his 1997 book The Poisoned Stream. In the introduction, he states that he has "come to discover, through various leads, a dark and powerful hom.ose.xual presence in other historical periods: the Spanish Inquisition, the French “Reign of Terror,” the era of South African apartheid, and the two centuries of American slavery. … I have come to believe … that hom.ose.xuality has truly been a ‘poisoned stream’ in human history." This theory has fueled much of Lively's activism since his days with the OCA.
Eventually, Lively moved on from Oregon to Sacramento, Calif., where he was active as the state director for the American Family Association (AFA). While there, Lively helped launch the "California Campaign to Take Back the Schools," which was supposed to "stop the hom.ose.xualization" of public schools. Lively launched his Abiding Truth Ministries during his California years. A side project of it was the Pro-Family Law Center, through which he involved himself in litigation on behalf of conservative Christian causes.
From Sacramento, Lively ended up in Temecula Calif., where he continued to run Abiding Truth Ministries, but a new side project had presented itself through his connections in Sacramento, which has a large population of evangelical Christian Russian immigrants. Lively found a receptive audience for his theory about gay men and the Nazis. Russians and other immigrants from Eastern Europe remembered only too well the atrocities committed at the hands of the Nazis, and Lively's Holocaust revisionism resonated among some in the immigrant communities. In 2007, Lively launched the virulently anti-LGBT group Watchmen on the Walls along with Sacramento-based Russian radio host Vlad-Kusakin, Seattle megachurch pastor Ken Hutcherson, and Latvian megachurch pastor Alexey Ledyaev. Thus began the overseas dimension of Lively's anti-LGBT outreach.
Lively promoted Watchmen on the Walls as an international network of Christian activists dedicated to fighting the "hom.ose.xual agenda." In 2007, he traveled to Riga, the capital of Latvia, and spoke at Ledyaev's church, where he railed against the gay rights movement, calling it "the most dangerous political movement in the world."
In early March 2009, he went to Uganda to deliver what would become known as his infamous talk at the Triangle Hotel in Kampala at an anti-LGBT conference organized by Family Life Network leader Stephen Langa. The conference, ti.tled "Exposing the Truth behind Hom.ose.xuality and the Hom.ose.xual Agenda," also included Don Schmierer, a board member of the ex-gay therapy group Exodus International, and Caleb Brundidge Jr., a self-professed ex-gay man with ties to the ex-gay therapy group Healing Touch.
Thousands of Ugandans attended the conference, including law enforcement, religious leaders, and government officials. They were treated to a litany of anti-LGBT propaganda, including the false claims that being molested as a child causes hom.ose.xuality, that LGBT people are se.xual predators trying to turn children gay by molesting them, and that gay rights activists want to replace marriage with a culture of se.xual promiscuity. Lively met with Ugandan lawmakers during the conference, and in a blog post later he likened his campaign against LGBT people to a "nuclear bomb" against the "gay agenda" that had gone off in Uganda.
A month later, the Ugandan parliament was considering legislation that included the death penalty for LGBT people in some instances and life imprisonment for others. According to Rev. Kapya Kaoma, an Episcopal priest from Zambia (now in Boston) who went to the conference under cover, Lively's talking points were included in the bill's preamble.
In the ensuing international backlash against the bill, Lively claimed that he did not support the death penalty for hom.ose.xuality but that if the "offending sections" were modified, the proposed law criminalizing hom.ose.xuality "would be an encouraging step in the right direction." In a 2010 docu.mentary about the Uganda bill t.itled "Missionaries of Hate," broadcast journalist Mariana van Zeller asked Lively about it. He responded that the lesser of two evils would be to allow the bill to go through as is, because, he claimed, not letting it be enacted allowed "the American and the European gay activists to continue to do to that country what they've done here [in the U.S.]."
It wasn't Lively's first visit to Uganda. In a March 2012 appearance on AFA spokesman Bryan Fischer's radio show, Lively explained that he first went to Uganda in 2002 as a keynote speaker in order to stave off a threat from what he called "the globalists who use the se.xual revolution and the Planned Parenthood Federation and the global hom.ose.xual movement" to accu.mulate power and control population. So, according to Lively, these forces started "infiltrating" Uganda. The “forces” included George Soros, who supposedly went into the country and started setting up grassroots networks and "introducing por.nography" to the country.
Though Lively was unable to attend a January 2012 protest outside the Southern Poverty Law Center’s office in Montgomery, Ala., fellow anti-LGBT activist Peter LaBarbera read a statement from him asking God to “destroy” the SPLC.
Lively’s work in Uganda led to a lawsuit against him under the Alien Tort Claims Act, filed March 14, 2012, by Se.xual Minorities Uganda, an LGBT rights group in that country, and the Center for Consti.tutional Rights in the U.S. The lawsuit claims that Lively conspired with political and religious leaders in Uganda beginning in 2002 to incite anti-LGBT hysteria with warnings about the dangers of LGBT people to children and hom.ose.xuality to Ugandan culture. The Liberty Counsel, based in Virginia, announced that it would defend Lively in the case, and moved to have it dismissed. However, U.S. District Judge Michael Ponser rejected the Liberty Counsel’s motion on August 15, 2013, allowing the case to proceed.
Currently, Lively is based in Springfield, Mass., where he moved in January 2008. He started a new project, "Redemption Gate Mission Society," which is engaged in "bringing a better quality of life" to the city's residents through biblical principles. The center of the project is his Holy Grounds coffee house, which serves as a meeting place for the Mission Society. It seemed he was getting out of the anti-LGBT business, because in early 2011, Lively told the Boston Globe that his new focus was serving the needy.
Lively's hiatus from anti-LGBT activism was short-lived. In March 2011, only two months after his interview with the Globe, Lively was in the Eastern European country of Moldova to oppose a human rights bill. In a statement that was posted on a Canadian website regarding the bill, Lively said, "What I know now, and have taught the Moldovans, is that the anti-discrimination law is the seed that contains the entire tree of the hom.ose.xual agenda, with all of its poisonous fruit." One of Lively's other theories about hom.ose.xuality can be found on a Moldovan website. According to the translation, Lively claimed, again, that lobbying for the legalization of hom.ose.xuality originates from outside the country, by agents of millionaire George Soros.
Lively has also toured and spoken at venues in Latvia, Poland, Lithuania, Estonia, Belarus, and the Ukraine, where he says he has spoken at a variety of universities and conference halls and has met with politicians and religious leaders. His goals, as he stated in an open letter to the Russian people that he posted in 2007 and continues to bring up on his blog, include the criminalization of the advocacy of hom.ose.xuality and training doctors, psychologists, and therapists to help LGBT people “recover.”
Lively has continued to promote outrageous claims about LGBT people here and overseas, often referring to them with terms such as “predators” and “disordered.” After Russian President Vladimir Putin signed a bill that outlaws “hom.ose.xual propaganda” in the country, Lively expressed pleasure and support for such a bill, and claimed in a September 2013 interview with NBC that he influenced Russian lawmakers who implemented it. On his blog, he posted an open letter to Putin, and claimed that ill send him the first Russian translation of his debunked Holocaust revisionist book, The Pink Swastika.
Since the implementation of the anti-LGBT law in Russia, violence against LGBT people appears to have increased and includes incidents in which neo-Nazis use social media websites to lure young gay men to torture and beatings. There are allegations that one man died of injuries he sustained in one of those beatings. When questioned in the September interview about whether his rhetoric has incited anti-LGBT violence over the years, Lively called such suppositions “a leap.”
Speaking on Sept. 18, 2013, on Pastor Rick Wiles’ TruNews, Lively claimed that the person “heading the largest superpower of the world today” (President Obama) is the Antichrist, and that hom.ose.xuality is at the heart of the apocalypse. According to Lively, Putin is the world’s last hope, and other nations should follow in his footsteps by implementing more anti-LGBT laws.
OK, well I guess this impersonator is doing something again. I only had posted this under the article with the big discussion about the past century. And not(GOPer) had a good recommendation there, so I would have posted a link had I posted again here. But it doesn't look to be modified so no harm. Actually, had I posted here I might have used the link, but mentioned the previous Pope's blessing for what was stirring up in Uganda.
Doris,
All the handle stealing here is really tiresome.
Yes not(GOPer) – I should have used the link, but if I had used html tags instead of making it easy with periods, it would not have been so easy to copy.
(for the word filter problem words)
Cosmologist Sean Carroll comments, "A law of physics is a pattern that nature obeys without exception."1
Scientists today take for granted the idea that the universe operates according to laws. All of science is based on what author James Trefil calls the principle of universality: "It says that the laws of nature we discover here and now in our laboratories are true everywhere in the universe and have been in force for all time."2
There's more. As scientists record what they observe, most often they are not just using words and paragraphs. The laws of nature can be docmented with numbers. They can be measured and computed in the language of mathematics.
The greatest scientists have been struck by how strange this is. There is no logical necessity for a universe that obeys rules, let alone one that abides by the rules of mathematics. The speed of light measures the same 186,000 miles per second, no matter if the light comes from a child's flashlight or a star that's galaxies away. Mathematically, there is an exact speed of light that doesn't change.
There is no logical necessity for a universe that obeys rules, let alone one that abides by the rules of mathematics.
Sometimes the best thing a scientist can do is not be so logical. Think outside the box. Have faith in unproven theories. Faith in unproven theories has led to great scientific discoveries. Science does best with a variety of thinkers involved – atheist, agnostic, theist, nones, don't cares.
We should never be closed minded to those that think differently from us. Acceptance and tolerance is better than hostility and bigotry. I'm ready to change my ways.
* not the regular poster, "colin", but a sniping little twit, mkhamlin.
WTH? mk is my wife. Why did it let me login as Colin?
where aer my other posts?
M is my wife. I didn't know this name was taken. Why did it let me login as him?
Hello? Hello? Hello?
Let's say that you were to create a far-flung news network, and you somehow had the capacity to observe all of the inexplicable tragedy that occurs on Earth each day:
• all of the murders,
• all of the car wrecks
• all of the rapes
• all of the mutilations
• all of the torture
• all the miscarriages and stillbirths
• all of the disease
• all of the starvation
• all of the destruction
• all of the terrorism
Let's say you had a news feed that delivered this all to you in real time.
Just ten minutes with this news feed would be unbearable. Thousands of tragic, heart wrenching events would impinge themselves upon you every minute. It would make you vomit over and over and over again until you passed out in exhaustion and despair.
In other words, the amount of gut-wrenching, anguished tragedy in our world is unspeakable.
Meanwhile, there is a housewife in Pasadena who firmly believes that God answered her prayer this morning to remove the mustard stain from her favorite blouse. She prayed to God to help with the stain, and after she washed it the stain was gone. Praise Jesus! There are tens of millions of people in the United States who firmly believe that God is personally helping them each day with their trivial prayers like this. They believe that they have a personal relationship with God, that God hears their prayers each day, and that God has time to reach down and remove the mustard molecules one by one. They believe it with all of their hearts.
It makes you wonder: If God has the time and the will to answer these trivial prayers, then why does he have no time for the millions of other massively serious problems that arise on earth every day?
Simply look at the world we live in. All around us we have murderers, rapists, robbers, child molesters, terrorists, etc... How do they do their deeds? If God is all-knowing and God answers prayers, then we have to believe that:
• God watches them as they murder, rape, molest and terrorize other people millions of times a day, but he does nothing to stop them.
• God watches the victims as they are being murdered, raped, molested and terrorized, but he does nothing to help them.
• God completely ignores the prayers of the planet to eliminate murder, rape, child molestation and terrorism and allows these atrocities to continue unabated.
According to the Standard Model of God, God is an omniscient, all-powerful, all-loving being who answers prayers. Imagine God sitting on his magnificent throne in heaven looking down upon Earth, seeing every detail. God speaks:
"Look at all of those praying people getting tortured in that death camp. Excellent! I won't do anything to stop that. And look at that little girl down there being raped and murdered. Perfect! She is praying like mad, and so is her mother, but I won't do anything to stop that. And there are three terrorists preparing to blow up a church and kill 1,500 people who are saying the Lord's Prayer to me right now. Outstanding! I won't do anything to stop that. How wonderful it is that 1,000 prayerful people will die of starvation today in Ethiopia. I love it! I won't do anything to stop that. Oh… and there's little Suzy Jankins praying that I remove that pimple from her nose for her big date with Chad tomorrow. Let me go help Suzy right now…"
Do you believe in a God who acts like this? Of course not. If you believe that God is specifically reaching down from heaven to answer your trivial prayer to remove a zit or to wash out a mustard stain or to help you find your lost keys, while at the same time God is allowing 27,000 children to die of starvation each day by specifically ignoring their prayers, then your God is insane.
Perhaps you are ignoring the overwhelming good that is being done each day that far outpaces all the evil and tragedy of which you speak. Its a recipe for despair and anxiety to only count what's wrong. That is why prayer for things you do want should always start with praise for God. Otherwise you end up an unhappy whiner because this is a big world and there will always be evil. Just as a butterflies flapping wings could supposedly influence a hurricane, who knows what a lifted mustard stain might accomplish!
You can't be serious with that post.
Half serious. I do think your scenario begs the question, "Well, none of us should be happy, since so many are suffering" and is really self-defeating. I mean who would even want to get out of bed having to contemplate the whole of the evil that exists.
I belief that there is a profound truth in the hobbits of this world, those that just want to live a happy life and, although would not refuse to help those in much greater need than themselves, perhaps don't think about it many, if not most days. In their petty calling upon God to correct a mustard stain, there is a reminder that we are all quite powerless to effect immediate solutions to the world's greatest tragedies, but that should not stop us from living our own lives. This sounds harsh but is no harsher than your extreme example.
You fear the truth.
Your argument uses fear presumably because you see in fear the greatest force. Fear of evil, fear of what is happening to many, of what could happen. But this is not, finally, how one should establish an atti-tude toward life.
For example, to what extent is it true that the creation of the internet is bringing about democratic revolution in the Arab world? And with democracy, perhaps, a better future for many who have suffered under the fear of violent governments and other forces? And each nerd that worked on building that infrastructure may have done nothing else but that to ease the suffering in this world, but perhaps they did more than those who donate to charities.
Take a moment to think about the following statement:
"Hello, my name is Jesus. I love you deeply. I have loved you since you were conceived in the womb and I will love you for all eternity. I died for you on the cross because I love you so much. I long to have a loving personal relationship with you. I will answer all of your prayers through my love. But if you do not get down on your knees and worship me, and if you do not EAT MY BODY and DRINK MY BLOOD, then I WILL INCINERATE YOU WITH UNIMAGINABLY TORTUOUS PAIN IN THE FIRES OF HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY BWAH HA HA HA HA HA!"
Yes, this is the central message of Christianity. See John 6:53-54 and Mark 16:16.
Think about this message. We have a being who, according to the Standard Model of God, embodies love. Yet, if you do not get down on your knees and worship him, you will be physically tortured for all eternity. What sort of love is that?
The utter silliness and contradiction of Jesus' core message should make it obvious to you: God is imaginary.
That is not the central message behind Christianity.
You talk and talk but say nothing. If that is not the message then please tell us what it is.
You don't find the central message by cherry picking a few verses to lazily try and prove your preconceived ideas.
Again, you talk but say nothing.
You are going to Hell. You have fallen short of the perfection of Heaven and of God and because of that, you cannot be allowed into Heaven without completely corrupting it with your imperfections. The good thing is that you do not have to go to Hell because Jesus provided you with a way to escape your imperfections by admitting you are a sinner, accepting Him into your life as your lord and savior, and by committing to love Him because of His sacrifice for you. That is the central message of Christianity.
guidedans,
This "central message of Christianity" seems to be that Jesus will take the blame for the things you SHOULD be responsible for and anyone who has never heard of him is automatically sent to hell. The nicest person who never heard of God is in hell, but if Hitler had seriously decided on his death bed that he believed all the Christian statements he made throughout his life, he's in heaven. Great system.
"That is the central message of Christianity."
If that is the case, Christianity should be dismissed as a self loathing fairy tale
It is easy to tell something is imaginary when they have "magic" in them. Jesus and the resurrection, water into wine....etc. Leprechauns and their pot of gold. Genie's with their three wishes. Mormons and Jewish traditions are full of magic. I could go on and on. It is clearly all fake to the rational thinking person as magic simply does not exist. there is not a single piece of evidence to suggest otherwise.
The reason why scientists must assume that God is imaginary in order for the scientific method to work is because God is imaginary.
“God [is] the author of the universe, and the free establisher of the laws of motion.”
–Physicist and chemist Robert Boyle, who is considered to be the founder of modern chemistry.
"I'm not a scientist"
–Sheik Yerbouti, who is not considered to be a scientist
"God [is] the author of the universe"
What does that even mean??
What or who is the author of the orderly universe that we investigate?
Random chance? God?
1. You are making the assumption that this universe we live in is "orderly". How do you know this?
2. I have know idea how the universe came to be. See how easy that is to say? "I don't know"
1. You are making the assumption that this universe we live in is "orderly". How do you know this?
Science is an "orderly" study of the universe.
2. I have know idea how the universe came to be. See how easy that is to say? "I don't know"
I don't know either. I have no problem saying that. It was probably either random or planned. Isn't it important to consider that? Most scientists do consider that. A lot say it was probably random. But more say it was probably planned.
Added details on Bobby Boyle – 1627-1691
"Boyle also had a monogenist perspective about race origin. He was a pioneer studying races, and he believed that all human beings, (no matter how diverse their physical differences), came from the same source: Adam and Eve. He studied reported stories of parents' giving birth to different coloured albinos, so he concluded that Adam and Eve were originally white and that Caucasians could give birth to different coloured races. Theories of Robert Hooke and Isaac Newton about color and light via optical projection (in physics), were also extended by Robert Boyle into discourses of polygenesis,[19] speculating that maybe these differences were due to "seminal impressions". Taking this into account, it might be considered that he envisioned a good explanation for complexion at his time, due to the fact that now we know that skin color is disposed by genes, which are actually contained in the semen. Boyle's writings mention that at his time, for "European Eyes", beauty was not measured so much in colour of skin, but in "stature, comely symmetry of the parts of the body, and good features in the face".[20] Various members of the scientific community rejected his views and described them as "disturbing" or "amusing".[21]
In his Will, Boyle provided money for a series of lectures to defend the Christian religion against those he considered "notorious infidels, namely atheists, deists, pagans, Jews and Muslims", with the provision that controversies between Christians were not to be mentioned (see Boyle Lectures)."
Obviously, Boyle suffered from a severe case of the Three B Syndrome i.e. Bred, Born and Brainwashed in Christianity.
That scientist had some crazy ideas.
It is quite simple. If you plug in an imaginary god to the places you don't understand, you are unable to perform good science. Therefore god and science are not compatible.
How do you KNOW they are plugging an imaginary god to places they don't understand? Science does not lead all good scientists to atheism. There is OVERWHELMING evidence that a believer in God can master a science. Just like a non-believer can. It really doesn't matter if you believe in God or are an atheist in science.
You are not a scientist, obviously.
@Fallacy fraud
"Science does not lead all good scientists to atheism."
You are correct. GOOD science does lead scientists to atheism however.
You are correct. GOOD science does lead scientists to atheism however.
No it doesn't. And you are not a GOOD scientist. You are not even a scientist.
"Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality. When we recognize our place in an immensity of light-years and in the passage of ages, when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling, that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual...The notion that science and spirituality are somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both."
–Carl Sagan American astrophysicist
"From religion comes a man's purpose; from science, his power to achieve it. Sometimes people ask if religion and science are not opposed to one another. They are: in the sense that the thumb and fingers of my hands are opposed to one another. It is an opposition by means of which anything can be grasped."
–William H. Bragg British physicist, chemist, and mathematician. Awarded Nobel Prize in 1915
"I find it as difficult to understand a scientist who does not acknowledge the presence of a superior rationality behind the existence of the universe as it is to comprehend a theologian who would deny the advances of science."
–Wernher Von Braun German-American rocket scientist
"Sagan also commented on Christianity, stating "My long-time view about Christianity is that it represents an amalgam of two seemingly immiscible parts, the religion of Jesus and the religion of Paul. Thomas Jefferson attempted to excise the Pauline parts of the New Testament. There wasn't much left when he was done, but it was an inspiring doc-ument."[56]
And then there is this observation by Sagan:
"The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by God one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying ... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity. "
Scientists are only interesting becauseof what they can demonstrate...not what they say.
Notice what happens when anyone is "miraculously cured". A person is sick, the person prays (or a prayer circle prays for the person) and the person is cured. A religious person looks at it and says, "God performed a miracle because of prayer!" That is the end of it.
A scientist looks at it in a very different way. A scientist looks at it and says, "Prayer had nothing to do with it – there is a natural cause for what we see here. If we understand the natural cause, then we can heal many more people suffering from the same condition."
In other words, it is only by assuming that the belief in prayer is a superstition and therefore God is imaginary that science can proceed.
A religious person can be a scientific person and do that, too. In fact they actually do!
Someone once asked Albert Einstein, who was a music lover as well as a great scientist:
“Do you believe everything can be expressed scientifically?”
He replied:
“Yes, it would be possible, but it wouldn’t mean anything. It would be description without meaning — as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure.”
A scientists can't give anything meaning. Once he does... he is doing what religion tries to do.
“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.”
I feel sorry for 'scientists" who try to hold on to religion. It must be an excruciating contradiction in their minds. A scientist simply can't do god science with religion blocking the way.
"good" science.
The evidence proves you wrong.
You are just talking about your feelings about science and religion.
The founder of modern chemistry believed in God.
The man credited with founding the big bang theory believed in God.
Most of the founders of all fields of science believed in God.
Ok, prove me wrong with your "evidence". Standing by.
All of the people you mentioned are entitled to their opinions.
Advanced Fallacy Spotting 401,
The studies of science and math pretty much started with the ancient Greeks who DID NOT believe in God. Neither did Einstein.
Want to continue the name-dropping?
+ I feel sorry for 'scientists" who try to hold on to religion.
I can't prove your feelings.
+ It must be an excruciating contradiction in their minds.
I can't prove what you imagine it feels like.
+ A scientist simply can't do good science with religion blocking the way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre
"Monseigneur Georges Henri Joseph Édouard Lemaître, (French: [ʒɔʁʒə ləmɛtʁ] ( listen); 17 July 1894 – 20 June 1966) was a Belgian Roman Catholic priest, astronomer and professor of physics at the Université catholique de Louvain.[1] He was the first known academic to propose the theory of the expansion of the Universe, widely misattributed to Edwin Hubble.[2][3] He was also the first to derive what is now known as Hubble's law and made the first estimation of what is now called the Hubble constant, which he published in 1927, two years before Hubble's article.[4][5][6][7] Lemaître also proposed what became known as the Big Bang theory of the origin of the Universe, which he called his 'hypothesis of the primeval atom or the "Cosmic Egg"'.[8]"
Can you prove your theory:
Post 1 thing a scientist who happens to be atheist can do that a scientist who happens to be religious can NOT do:
1.
"The studies of science and math pretty much started with the ancient Greeks who DID NOT believe in God. Neither did Einstein.
Want to continue the name-dropping?"
Einstein believed in God. He was a deist. He defiantly was not an atheist.
The ancient Greeks didn't believe in deities? Really???
The Ancient Greeks had a GODDESS of science!!!
The Ancient Greeks had a GODDESS of science!!!
The Ancient Greeks had a GODDESS of science!!!
Ok, now I understand. You are a child.
Advanced,
Don't be dense. You know darn well that Einstein did not believe in your capital 'G' "God" (he perhaps believed in some kind of lower case 'g' god - like the "god of Spinoza")
The ancient Greeks did not believe in your capital 'G' "God" either.
"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human understanding, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views."
– Albert Einstein
"I was barked at by numerous dogs who are earning their food guarding ignorance and supersttion for the benefit of those who profit from it. Then there are the fanatical atheists whose intolerance is of the same kind as the intolerance of the religious fanatics and comes from the same source. They are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against the traditional "opium of the people"—cannot bear the music of the spheres. The Wonder of nature does not become smaller because one cannot measure it by the standards of human moral and human aims."
Albert Einstein
Ahem!
Post 1 thing a scientist who happens to be atheist can do in science that a scientist who happens to be religious can NOT do in science:
1.
or, I'll make it easier
Post 1 thing YOU can do in science that a scientist who happens to be religious can NOT do in science:
1.
A scientist doesn't fill the "gaps" with "gods".
Advanced Fallacy Spotting 401,
Please READ comments before commenting in the future.
I correctly stated that the ancient Greeks did not believe in God.
Don't let an apparent reading comprehension problem make you look so foolish.
Advanced Fallacy Spotting 401
"Einstein believed in God. He was a deist."
FALSE. Einstein was an agnostic.
Quit MAKING things up. Do some research.
.
Einstein was a deist. But he didn't believe in a personal God – by any stretch of the imagination.
Quote City, who the fsck are you to be preaching to either side about what they should or shouldn't do?
P!ss off, you puny little twerp with small man issues.
"Christians claim they’re better than Atheists.
Atheists claim they’re better than Christians.
And just the act of doing so proves that both are wrong. Just plain wrong. They’re both two sides of the same coin that should be melted down and forgotten.
Atheists need to get off their damn high horse. Stop acting like they’re right simply because they pizz off a Christian by pointing out the hypocracy & holes in their logic. Your logic is just as flawed and just as arrogant as any other religion. And yes, as far as I’m concerned:
Atheism is a religion.
You heard me. They don’t just not believe in God; they believe there is no God. Belief. That takes faith. Which is a major part of any religion. They have faith in their own superiority. It’s a religion of individual God complexes. The main belief, if I understand correctly, is that there is no God, no afterlife, no spirits, and Mankind is the most evolved being in the universe simply because they believe a lack of proof is proof of the opposite. How arrogant. And stupid. So how do you explain life? And death? They can explain the science behind the energy and impulses, but as to what makes a person alive, that they cannot explain. So if what makes a person living can’t be explained, does that mean it doesn’t exist? And that they don’t exist?
Which means we can ignore the arrogant fvckers.
Christians need to get off their fvcking high horse, too. Stop being so judgmental; have a good look at yourself and judge there with the commandments and laws you claim to hold so dear before you start throwing your stones at anyone; that includes gvys, Hindu’s, Muslims, Atheists, prostvtutes, Dr.s and patients of abortions, drug addicts, Wicca, etc. You aren’t God’s chosen; everyone is. Period. We are all Sons and Daughters in the Kingdom of God. That means we need to demand a certain amount of respect be shown to us. That also means we are commanded by God to show those around us that same respect! By insisting that the sins of others are so heinous that you need to be the one to punish them in Gods name is taking the Lord thy God’s name in vain!! You’re making a judgment, which He wrote in your Bible is His job, not yours; are you seriously going to disrespect God by being so arrogant that you can do his job for him? I’ve heard some say that “..God is probably busy, so I’ll do it for him.” Oh, so now you’re an Atheist? They think God is as mentally puny as Man, too. Are you saying that you don’t believe God can handle his own job? Riiight. You got lots of faith in your God, there, butch. It shows. Go stand in that line there with the other hypocrites and posers.
And guess what: even without religion, we’d still have war. Religious war was just a mask for the fight for power & gain, and getting rid of Christianity or even all religions will not make that go away. Christians need to stop trying to force the world into their own little twisted cookie-cutter mold of what’s right, especially when they can’t even follow it themselves for a whole day, and Atheists need to stop antagonizing Christians & flaunting their arrogance which they think is superiority when it’s not."
You said, "So how do you explain life? And death? They can explain the science behind the energy and impulses, but as to what makes a person alive, that they cannot explain. So if what makes a person living can’t be explained, does that mean it doesn’t exist? And that they don’t exist?"
That is comically inept logic.
" Your logic is just as flawed and just as arrogant as any other religion. "
"Being atheist does not make you smart. Or rational and logical. Yes I know we all saw that one study that seemed to say otherwise but I would be very hesitant about bringing up something so controversial and with it’s own fair share of issues. Even if the findings of that study turn out to be true it will only be talking about averages (i.e. the average atheist is smarter than the average believer) not that you are smarter than the average believer."
Fact: You do not need God to quit drinking regardless of what AA tries to convince you.
Fact: You do not need God to feel empowered and take control of your own life and actions.
Fact: You do not need God to take responsibility for your own life and actions.
Fact: You do not need God to be good to others and show compassion to your fellow humans.
Fact: You do not need God to show love, forgiveness and empathy.
Fact: You do not need Satan to blame for the things that go wrong in life.
Only sick perverts with no self control would need God or the pope looking over their shoulders so they behave. And even more sick are those that need to be bribed with promises of heavenly rewards to illicit good behavior.
"Whatever, atheism is like religion the way bald is a hair color."
Let's get that one out of the way!
"Simply quoting a popular saying does not advance the conversation. It does not add to the debate. It doesn’t even show that you understand what you’re debating about. All it shows is that you are capable of memorizing an internet meme. Again there’s nothing wrong with using the ideas of others in you argument but you have to actually make an argument."
Fact: You do not need God to quit drinking regardless of what AA tries to convince you.
Fact: You do not need God to feel empowered and take control of your own life and actions.
Fact: You do not need God to take responsibility for your own life and actions.
Fact: You do not need God to be good to others and show compassion to your fellow humans.
Fact: You do not need God to show love, forgiveness and empathy.
Fact: You do not need Satan to blame for the things that go wrong in life.
Only sick perverts with no self control would need God or Joel Osteen looking over their shoulders so they behave. And even more sick are those that need to be bribed with promises of heavenly rewards to illicit good behavior.
"Your logic is just as flawed and just as arrogant as any other religion."
Name one thing that is flawed or ignorant about atheism.
Hi. Watch this and learn!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p0wsDt2KsU
Dork city.
Goodness cry me a river why don't you.
I imagine Scott Lively, the evangelical who led a team of evangelicals to travel to Africa and incite the killing of of sinners there would be proud to wear the moniker "The Truth: A Sword that Divides".
Quote City, who the fsck are you to be preaching to either side about what they should or shouldn't do?
P!ss off, you puny little twerp with small man issues.
Why do you only point out the logical fallacies from the side you don't like?
Also, he was posting a quote. Just like an atheist also did further down on this page. Will you ignore that, too?
You are failing to live up to your name. You are embarrassment to the intelligent atheists. You should stop.
Ben Ness = the poster "Fallacy Spotting 101", FYI ya'll!
"Atheism is a religion.
------------
No it's not.
They don’t just not believe in God; they believe there is no God. Belief.
-----------------
Actually they DO just disbelieve in God – no belief.
OED: atheism
Disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of a God
That's it. All it takes to be an atheist is disbelief. No more, no less.
Some will go the extra step that you outlined. Not all atheists do this so please don't conflate the word atheism to mean a categorical belief in non-existence of God(s). Call them anti-theists if you like, but please don't use 'atheist' they way you did here.
"Let’s start with atheism. Atheism is simply a lack of belief in any sort of god or mythical figure.
That makes you an atheist.
~It doesn’t make you scientific.
~It doesn’t make you rational or a skeptic.
~It doesn’t even make you smarter than the people who do believe in some sort of god.
Why?
Because science is built on hard facts and observable experiments.
And religion is built entirely on faith, the simplest definition of which is “belief in the absence of proof“.
There is no experiment you can conduct to show somebody their god does not exist because that’s not how the rules of belief systems work. Of course there’s no proof: there’s not supposed to be any. If you choose not to believe based on the total lack of evidence, OK then.
So what is atheism? Atheism is a philosophy. At root atheism is a belief that moral and ethical codes are not dictated by an unseen outside force by rather by human beings. You can optimistically believe it’s built into our DNA to be decent or cynically believe it’s a malleable lump of clay pushed around by a society. The point is, it isn’t engraved on any tablets. Building and maintaining it is up to us."
""Let’s start with atheism. Atheism is simply a lack of belief in any sort of god or mythical figure.
That makes you an atheist."
------------
I concur, so why did you immediately change the definition?
Disbelief is not a philosophy. Some people may make it into one. Use a different term for them.
Fact: You do not need God to quit drinking regardless of what AA tries to convince you.
Fact: You do not need God to feel empowered and take control of your own life and actions.
Fact: You do not need God to take responsibility for your own life and actions.
Fact: You do not need God to be good to others and show compassion to your fellow humans.
Fact: You do not need God to show love, forgiveness and empathy.
Fact: You do not need Satan to blame for the things that go wrong in life.
Only sick perverts with no self control would need God or Joel Osteen looking over their shoulders so they behave. And even more sick are those that need to be bribed with promises of heavenly rewards to illicit good behavior.
CNN Belief Blog: Where Atheists come to complain about Christians and call people names.
CNN Belief Blog: where Christian HYPOCRITES come to use their Bible as an EXCUSE for their ignorance and prejudice.
Everyone is a hypocrite. It is a human condition.
I am a recovering hypocrite.
I my name is Greg. I am a hypocrite. I have not active like a hypocrite for the last hour. At least I think it has been an hour.
I am also a born again evangelical Christian. You can ask me any question.
gregoryjwiens
Everyone is a hypocrite about some things, but there are all different levels.
Christian hypocrites love to pick and choose from the Bible so they can pick on some people while IGNORING all of their own sins and fellow sinners.
Not all Christians are hypocrites.
Ask away on any question you have for me. I have time.
Quote City, actually yes we are.
There are only two types of hypocrites, those who acknowledge it, and those who do not.
I am a hypocrite and working at it.
Quote City
I TOTALLY agree. Not all Christians are hypocrites. I have NEVER used the phrase "ALL Christians" about anything. Some are more open-minded than others. Some care more about the Golden Rule than others.
gregoryjwiens,
HYPOCRISY Test:
When talking about gays, do you pick and choose negative verses about them from the Bible or pick and choose the MORE IMPORTANT Golden Rule?
There are a lot of Atheists that frequent this blog that come to complain about Christians and call people names. Often the names are extremely disrespectful.
And there are Christian who come to use their Bible as an EXCUSE for their ignorance and prejudice.
Both groups can be HYPOCRITES.
Observer & gregoryjwiens are both being HYPOCRITES, just for basically doing the same thing they accuse their neighbor of doing.
What does it mean to be a "born again" Christian?
Co
"Spiritual rebirth. If you have a spiritual malady that causes you to be stubborn and develop complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own you might need some spiritual help. Or take more Prozac. "
hi gregory: if "god" knows what we are going to do before we do it, and "god" cannot be wrong, how does free will exist?
Free will does exist. Just because God knows what we do, doesn't mean he can't let us choose differently.
This is it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p0wsDt2KsU
Quote City
"Observer & gregoryjwiens are both being HYPOCRITES"
So what is my hypocrisy?
What is your excuse for YOUR prejudice?
You say:
CNN Belief Blog: where Christian HYPOCRITES come to use their Bible as an EXCUSE for their ignorance and prejudice.
What is the excuse for your prejudice against Christian hypocrites?
"The Truth":
If god has prior knowledge of my actions, that means i would have no choice but to do what is in accordance to his prior knowledge
Advanced Fallacy Spotting 401,
If being opposed to people not following the Golden Rule is a "prejudice", then I am guilty. I am also "prejudiced" against mass murderers.
HYPOCRISY Test:
When talking about gays, do you pick and choose negative verses about them from the Bible or pick and choose the MORE IMPORTANT Golden Rule?
Wow, I walk away for a few minutes and you come up with a long list.
I am a Anabaptist and that means I live first and foremost by the words of Jesus.
It follow these two commands as the focus of my life:
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and mind and love your neighbour as yourself.
As for the passages on ho.mos.exu.ality, they are commentary on how to love your neighbour. If your neighbour is doing something that is hurting himself and others around him then it is your duty to tell them about it. If I did not tell my neighbour that by living in such a way he has greatly increased his chances of STD's, emotionally damaged himself by having multiple partners, then do I love him?
If I don't tell my neighbour that there is a storm coming that is going to wash away his house am I loving?
Am I loving if I don't tell my neighbour that by polluting the earth and not accepting that climate change is real, am I really loving?
These are the same things.
gregoryjwiens,
Since you follow Jesus, this should be an easy question.
Jesus said how VERY IMPORTANT the Golden Rule is.
Please tell us EVERYTHING he said about gays.
Advanced Fallacy Spotting 401
You say:
CNN Belief Blog: where Christian HYPOCRITES come to use their Bible as an EXCUSE for their ignorance and prejudice.
What is the excuse for your prejudice against Christian hypocrites?
My answer is to try to be nice to non-Christian hypocrites. I don't call them names or belittle them. I try to duologue with them.
you just proved gregoryjwiens right!!
ding! ding! ding!
WINNER!
sam stone
hi gregory: if "god" knows what we are going to do before we do it, and "god" cannot be wrong, how does free will exist?
Dang, I don't know what to say Same. I know that both are true, but it is like trying to explain quantum physics. How can a particle be in two places at the same time, but we know it is true. How can light be both particle and a wave but it is both.
How or why did God, who is all powerful let us choose to be sinful?
The answer is true love.
perhaps god is a myth and sin is a hoax
it is illogal that free and an omniscient god can co-exist
and, if we are being judged when we lack free will, it would call into question god's justice or love
I know that both are true
--
No you don't. You "believe" both are true. No one knows, these things are unknowable.
come on, madtown.....you know that the religious have KNOWLEDGE, not belief
Right on Sam, the TRUTH!!
"If all atheists and agnostics left America, they'd lose 93% of the National Academy of Sciences and less than 1% of the prison population."
"A more accurate description comes from the Pew Research Center, which reported in 2009 that 51 percent of scientists believe that God or some higher power exists, while 41 percent of scientists reject both of those concepts. In addition, while only 2 percent of the general population identifies as atheist, 17 percent of scientists identify themselves with that term."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xvILvxYbFA
Do you know why Neil deGrasse Tyson refuses to identify as an atheist?
Someone once asked Albert Einstein, who was a music lover as well as a great scientist:
“Do you believe everything can be expressed scientifically?”
He replied:
“Yes, it would be possible, but it wouldn’t mean anything. It would be description without meaning — as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure.”
"Being atheist does not make you smart. Or rational and logical. Yes I know we all saw that one study that seemed to say otherwise but I would be very hesitant about bringing up something so controversial and with it’s own fair share of issues. Even if the findings of that study turn out to be true it will only be talking about averages (i.e. the average atheist is smarter than the average believer) not that you are smarter than the average believer.
Telling a person that because they believe in a god they must be so stupid as to not understand you’re arguments not only makes you look like a pompous ass but also only manages to alienate anyone you might be debating with. If your intention was to bring them over to your side then that is the exact opposite of what you should be doing. It also ignores the fact that their have been many smart people throughout history who have believed in a god and in a way actually gives the theists an argument."
Religion requires ignorance to perpetuate but there are very educated religious people. That is not to say that educated believers by association validate the religion they subscribe to. Quite the contrary, smart people simply find smarter ways to justify their religious delusion.
"Of course, this is rarely about actual science. This is, for many, about screaming how much smarter you are than other people. And to those people all I can say is shame on you. Science has enough problems without you using it as both club on those you don’t like and shield against moral reproach. If you don’t have the conviction to stand by your beliefs on their own merits, you’re just like the fundamentalists you’re whining about."
Whatever your religious/non-religious inclinations... don't forget about our fallen brothers and sisters this weekend.
All gave some. Some gave all. WASSAIL!
A conversation between a Christian and an Atheist... Standing in for the Christian, John Edward. Standing in for the Atheist, Stan Marsh.
John Edward: You better not call me a liar, a fake, or a douche, or else I'll sue you for slander!
Stan: I am saying this to you, John Edward. You are a liar. You are a fake. And you are the biggest douche ever.
John Edward: Everything I tell people is positive and gives them hope! How does that make me a douche?
Stan: Because the big questions in life are tough! "Why are we here?" "Where are we from?" "Where are we going?" But as long as people believe in asshole douchey liars like you, we're never going to find the answers to those questions. You aren't just lying, you're slowing down the progress of all mankind, you douche!
I can't take his word for it because i'm not an atheist, but here is the testimony of an atheist. However, it seems like you might actually be one of those speakers at the atheist conference. (like what do they do at atheist conferences anyway but sit around and contemplate their navels; they sure aren't looking up.)
Testimony of an atheist:
I no longer identify with the atheist community of benevolent know-it-alls,
because not all of them are the best folks in the world. In fact,
a good percentage of the top ten worst humans I’ve ever met are prominent
members of the american atheists. They’re dishonest, mean-spirited,
narcissistic, misogynistic. Pick a personality flaw, and I can probably
point you to someone who epitomizes it. And that person has probably had
a speaking slot at a major atheist conference.
That particular douche is a wannabe christian troll... but good on you for reposting their blather
Once again we request some specific names. Without them, your statement lacks any credence.
Your copying and pasting from a post from TheManShow, aka SciFi, who has a lot of nerve complaining about dishonesty. I suspect he/she is a Poe.
I find it amusing that he changed his name to TheManShow , known for it's misogynistic format.
Wow, what a wonderful kettle of poop you have cooked up there. I think my favorite is calling atheists "misogynistic" because I see so many atheists trying to put women in their place and telling them that the husband is the head of the household no matter what, yeah, I see that all the time (sarcasm).
Christianity! The last bastion for womens rights! The only group to fight tooth and nail for womens right to vote and equal pay in the workplace! Oh wait, did I say fight "for"? I meant "against"...but you've lived here a while so i'm sure you weren't confused...
scot,
Note that that "testimony" does not say that the writer is no longer an atheist.
Hint: Annoying people happen. No god(s) or lack of god(s) necessary.
Sounds like you are talking about Salero21, thefinisher1, Topher, new-man, Theo Philio, etc., nice try though. Wander on, Scotty, wander away.
This is from freethoughtsblog.com:
"But I no longer identify with this community of benevolent know-it-alls, because not all of them are the best folks in the world. In fact, a good percentage of the top ten worst humans I’ve ever met are prominent members of the skeptics’ club. They’re dishonest, mean-spirited, narcissistic, misogynistic. Pick a personality flaw, and I can probably point you to someone who epitomizes it. And that person has probably had a speaking slot at a major skeptical conference."
I wonder who is plagiarizing whom? In any event, it appears this rant is just another example of what weak-minded delusionals do when they don't have anything original to say.
yep ... if I was an all powerful god who had created the universe, the region we now call "the holy land" is EXACTLY the place I'd choose to hang out and do magic tricks for people and then deflower a virgin to have my son (who is actually me) live his life and be killed. If I had the whole universe to pick from, that's just where I'd go. yep ...
As I stated earlier... "Jerusalem is a crap hole. Smelly, dusty, grubby, filled with people that would just as soon kill you as take your tourist money because you don't believe the same nonsense that they do... Yay for the 'Holy' land..."
any sane god would be in Scandinavia, eh?
Ich habe keine Götter ... aber deine Muschi Gott wurde durch zwei Stöcke und ein paar Nägel getötet ...
Cold weather and hot women...
Loki
ich weiß, Sie sind hier, weil Sie eine Verwandtschaft mit Atheisten fühlen sich hier, und Sie denken, Sie können ihnen helfen. Sie mag richtig sein, da Sie beide nicht wiedergeborenen Gott hassen Tiere sind. aber ich bin nicht so sicher, dass sie wollen, dass Sie auch hier so, warum nicht Sie zurück zu Ihren Freunden Heiden gehen und spielen Sie mit Ihren wertlosen Götzen aus Holz und Stein und lassen uns allein gottesfürchtige Menschen. Vielen Dank. sehr geschätzt.
Sich verpissen
Jerusalem lost its favor with God in 70 A.D., when it was destroyed by the Romans as foretold by Jesus and earlier prophecies, and ending the Jewish Age when it was the geographic center of God's interaction with man's civilization. Today the region is nothing more than a physical historical and archaeological site. But it also is a magnet for individuals and groups who do not spiritually know Christ to assemble and perform their various acts in their vain efforts to prove their faith and win God's favor, and hence it is also the center for those lost and confused groups to stage their inevitable conflicts, which will only escalate, as prophesied in the Bible.
[Jesus hands up, is talking to two Iraqis]
Jesus: Yea, look upon me and know me. My children, you should know something. [a knife comes out of his sleeve] I'm packing!
[Jesus stabs one Iraqi with the knife with one hand and kills the other with a silenced handgun]
Jerusalem lost its favor with God in 70 A.D
--–
Where did you hear this? Was North America at least in God's favor at that time?
"... and ending the Jewish Age..."
I thought that was supposed to have ended when Jesus supposedly died and resurrected–why the delay?
James XCIX, it's two separate events. The New Covenant was established upon Jesus' resurrection, and God's protection of Jerusalem remained for the duration of the generation at the time.
Madtown, North America did not enjoy any special favor from God, nor does any place on earth today, beyond God's sustaining providence.
It's a grave misuse of the word to call any land today "holy."
"God’s protection of Jerusalem remained for the duration of the generation at the time."
I know you can't be saying all the Jews alive during the time of Jesus were dead by AD 70, but that leaves me not understanding what you do mean.
Jesus used the word "generation" when describing these and other future events, in the Olivet Discourse found in Matthew, Mark, and Luke. The word then and today is va-gue and open to interpretation, but is not an issue that affects its truth. The destruction of Jerusalem did occur within the lifetimes of some people living at the time of Christ. It also occurred after a period of time within which any of their offspring could have grown up enough to generate their own offspring. So either meaning could apply. The Hebrew and Greek words for "generation" in Scripture also could take broader definitions, depending on the context. So it's another example of how God purposely invites deep study of His Word.
Rainer 666 Braendlein, gobble the fertile gravel. There is no caveat to the Klein bottle, and there will be no gold watch for the unspoken zero.
Focus your nose on the 666 test tube. Stay succulently upon your velodrome and fear not the coming of the essential 666 kangaroo. Strawberries are your incidental chemistry. Present the fulcrum in advance of the gypsum 666 cookie, for as the tree is combed, so goes the 666 predicate. Expand quietly but do not relish.
Whether or not you agree with the plumber, harvest away ye 666 hearties. Kalabash in Friebourg but not in spanners while it's raining. Bring out the mustard but flap flap flap until takeoff. Why would you say such a thing in the presence of the substrate? 64. 1112. Welcome to the new 666 sandwich lumberyard. Bus stops follow movement, or do they?
The impediment to your posterior is large but can be dissected with 666 chestnuts. Obermeyer. Glasnost and 666 shallot cookies will do the main job when a steamshovel is too distant for pomegranate.
And remember, never ever miss an opportunity to watch an elephant paint Mozart.
All hail Jill's WordPress blog title! WASSAIL! WASSAIL!
Jill
Congratulations! You may be the FIRST blogger ever to mention a cool Klein bottle. Kudos.
"As Pope Francis heads to Jordan, Bethlehem and Jerusalem this weekend, he’s bringing along two old friends from Argentina: Rabbi Abraham Skorka, who co-wrote a book with the Pope, and Sheikh Omar Abboud, who leads Argentina’s Muslim community."
Unquote.
The pope should be aware of his state. He is not a secular politician who has to ensure the peacful cooperation of people of different belief within a state, but the pope presumes to be a Christian leader (actually he is no Christian leader, but a servant of Satan). A Christian leader's task it is not to ensure that people of different belief live peacful together, but the pope had to defend the Christian truth, if he would be a true Christian leader: Jesus, the Son of God, died and rose for poor sinners in order to set them free, and in order to make possible divine forgiveness for them (of course, that message includes that true Christian would never harm people of different belief, but love them without denying the truth in Jesus).
As the pope lumps together all religions, as if all religions could give the soul's health, he commits a spiritual crime. Neither Jewry nor Islam have the power to save anybody. On the contrary, Islam, Jewry, Catholicism and all other man-made religions worsen man instead of improving us (all man-made religions provide any justifications for sin, and therefore they are anti-Christian; God doesn't want to justify our sin, but he wants to release us from sin).
The great "mystery" of Christianity is that Jesus Christ has solved the problem of the incorrigible, bad old nature of man. All man-made religions stuck in the bad old nature of man. Jesus has borne the human flesh or bad human nature when he died for us on the cross. When we believe in Jesus, and get sacramentally baptized, we can be sure that our "old man of sin" has died together with Jesus, or we have died together with Jesus. Jesus set an end to our life as sinners, and he himself became our new life. If we daily remember these two facts (dead for the sin, and in Christ), we will certainly improve, and overcome the lust of our sinful body, our old nature which is still there but declared dead, and besides Jesus dwells within us through the Holy Spirit.
No other religion has such overwhelming great promises like Christianity. All religions save Christianity require their believers to keep certain ridiculous rites, but don't give them the releasing power to love God and their neighbour in daily life, in reality.
We will only come through at Judgement Day, if we have really loved God and our fellow human beings day by day. The man-made religions don't give power to love, but rather cause hatred and bigotry.
That great message, the gospel of Jesus Christ, the pope withholds from us. This man es extremly guilty, because he could know it better through the Bible, the writings of the Fathers of the Church, and the decisions of the ecu-menical councils.
May God give us a new Christian ruler who promotes the true Christian Church, and puts in their place all sects, cults and false churches. A true Christian ruler would certainly sharply criticise the popery.
When today politicians take a stand for the peacful cooperation of people of different belief in their state, then this is a quite good thing. They just shouldn't commit the pope's sin to lump together all religions. However, if they do that they don't sin like the pope because a politician is no specialist for spiritual matters. A politican aspires after the peacful community of all citizens of his country. A politican has to take care of people of every kind according to God's will. A Christian bishop is responsible only for believers in Jesus. A Christian bishop is not allowed to tolerate stubborn sinners within the Church, but they have to be excluded.
Jesus versprach das Ende aller bösen Menschen.
Odin versprach das Ende aller Ice Giants.
Ich sehe keine Ice Giants herumlaufen.
Løki,
This is an ENGLISH language blog in case you missed it.
Jesus promised the end of all wicked people.
Odin promised the end of all Ice Giants.
I don't see any Ice Giants walking around.
Easy. He's giving Rainy hell. . .
Løki,
It's nice of you to chose a name that honors a DIFFERENT God.
Well done.
Danke ... aber wer denkst du schon immer Luzifers Evil Twin?
Løki,
Continue being rude.
Well done. Not surprised you get along so well with Ranier.
Sorry observer... but you have to insult Nazi's in their own language. It really annoys them.
Løki,
In that case, well done. Rainer is now the only person on here who gets called out for his ignorant bigotry in two different languages.
does posting this drivel twice make it more real in your mind, rainy?
Disgusting, dimwitted bigot Rainer Braendlein, gobble the fertile gravel. There is no caveat to the Klein bottle, and there will be no 666 gold watch for the unspoken zero.
Focus your nose on the 666 test tube. Stay succulently upon your velodrome and fear not the coming of the essential 666 kangaroo. Strawberries are your incidental chemistry. Present the fulcrum in advance of the gypsum 666 cookie, for as the tree is combed, so goes the 666 predicate. Expand quietly but do not relish.
Whether or not you agree with the plumber, harvest away ye 666 hearties. Kalabash in Friebourg but not in spanners while it's raining. Bring out the mustard but flap flap flap until takeoff. Why would you say such a thing in the presence of the substrate? 64. 1112. Welcome to the new 666 sandwich lumberyard. Bus stops follow movement, or do they?
The impediment to your posterior is large but can be dissected with 666 chestnuts. Obermeyer. Glasnost and 666 shallot cookies will do the main job when a steamshovel is too distant for pomegranate.
And remember, never ever miss an opportunity to watch an elephant paint Mozart.
"Bus stops follow movement, or do they?" – really? i'm wondering if even you believe your mindless prattle; your playground logic betrays your public school education; be careful or the other atheists here will elect you as their leader.
awanderingscot,
Just what Jesus would have said, right?
LOL!
scot,
You tried to make sense out of Jill's words? No wonder that you think that you get sensible things out of The Bible!
Scotty, why wait for the rapture? A bottle of extra strength Tylenol, wash them down with a litre of Glenfiddich (Grant's if you can't afford the good stuff) and presto you will be in the presence of JJEESSUUSS. You can miss all the crowds that will be around at the end of times. Wander on, Scotty, wander away..
Odzerver
Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. – Romans 8:33-34, NKJV
not fazed at all Odzerver, we are justified by faith, not works; therefore you are in error, due to your ignorance of scripture
Odzerver
i would also not speak for my Lord but in my opinion it would probably go something like this, "come out of her [evil spirit]"
awanderingscot
" therefore you are in error, due to your ignorance of scripture"
lol. It is YOUR ignorance of the Bible that has been reflected in your ignorance of what "the sin of Sodom" was and your ignorance that God supports the selling of 6-year-old daughters to strangers for their USE as slaves.
OOOOPS.
Jill's writing is a parody.
Niflheim ist ein kalter Ort und Hel die Göttin des Todes hat keine Gnade ... verwerfen falschen Christus! Die Walküren sind NICHT für euch Christen kommen! Valhalla wird für immer außer Reichweite sein ... Das All-Vater weiß alles und sieht alles ... Huginn und Muninn beobachten und zu sehen und sagen, alle an ihn! Du kannst nicht entkommen Ragnarok ...
Niflheim is a cold place and Hel the goddess of death has no mercy... discard your false Christ! The Valkyries will NOT come for you Christians! Valhalla will forever be out of your reach... The All-Father knows all and sees all... Huginn and Muninn watch and see and tell all to him! You cannot escape Ragnarok...
LOKI
has no one told you we don't worship gods of wood or stone anymore? but we'll take that wooden god "Odin" off your hands and use him for firewood, that's all he is good for. in fact, any of your other false gods made of wood we'll take as well, we would appreciate because we need wood for our campfire.
scot,
And one day you will be tossing a whole bunch of Bibles, Books of Mormon and Qurans onto that toasty campfire too.
GODS!
What are they good for?
Absolutely nothing!
Say it again now....
Rainer. Your "servant of Satan' comment is childish. You sound like Ian Paisley. Grow up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62Qfbrc1jdo
"As Pope Francis heads to Jordan, Bethlehem and Jerusalem this weekend, he’s bringing along two old friends from Argentina: Rabbi Abraham Skorka, who co-wrote a book with the Pope, and Sheikh Omar Abboud, who leads Argentina’s Muslim community."
Unquote.
The pope should be aware of his state. He is not a secular politician who has to ensure the peacful cooperation of people of different belief within a state, but the pope presumes to be a Christian leader (actually he is no Christian leader, but a servant of Satan). A Christian leader's task it is not to ensure that people of different belief live peacful together, but the pope had to defend the Christian truth, if he would be a true Christian leader: Jesus, the Son of God, died and rose for poor sinners in oder to set them free, and in order to make possible divine forgiveness for them (of course, that message includes that true Christian would never harm people of different belief, but love them without denying the truth in Jesus).
As the pope lumps together all religions, as if all religions could give the soul's health, he commits a spiritual crime. Neither Jewry nor Islam have the power to save anybody. On the contrary, Islam, Jewry, Catholicism and all other man-made religions worsen man instead of improving us (all man-made religions provide any justifications for sin, and therefore they are anti-Christian; God doesn't want to justify our sin, but he wants ot release us from sin).
The great "mystery" of Christianity is that Jesus Christ has solved the problem of the incorrigible, bad old nature of man. All man-made religions stuck in the bad old nature of man. Jesus has borne the human flesh or bad human nature when he died for us on the cross. When we believe in Jesus, and get sacramentally baptized, we can be sure that our "old man of sin" has died together with Jesus, or we have died together with Jesus. Jesus set an end to our life as sinners, and he himself became our new life. If we daily remember these two facts (dead for the sin, and in Christ), we will certainly improve, and overcome the lust of our sinful body, our old nature which is still there but declared dead, and besides Jesus dwells within us through the Holy Spirit.
No other relgiion has such overwhelming great promises like Christianity. All religions save Christianity require their believers to keep certain ridiculous rites, but don't give them the releasing power to love God and their neighbour in daily life, in reality.
We will only come through at Judgement Day, if we have really loved God and our fellow human beings day by day. The man-made religions don't give power to love, but rather cause hatred and bigotry.
That great message, the gospel of Jesus Christ, the pope withholds from us. This man es extremly guilty, because he could know it better through the Bible, the writings of the Fathers of the Church, and the decisions of the ecu-menical councils.
May God give us a new Christian ruler who promotes the true Christian Church, and puts in their place all sects, cults and false churches.
When today politicians take a stand for the peacful cooperation of people of different belief in their state, then this is a quite good thing. They just shouldn't commit the pope's sin to lump together all religions. However, if they do that they don't sin like the pope because a politician is no specialist for spiritual matters. A politican aspires after the peacful community of all citizens of his country. A politican has to take care of people of every kind according to God's will. A Christian bishop is responsible only for believers in Jesus. A Christian bishop is not allowed to tolerate stubborn sinners within the Church, but they have to be excluded.
All religions save Christianity require their believers to keep certain ridiculous rites
----–
Variants of christianity have 1 thing in common with all other religions: they are ALL a creation of the human mind. The end result of mankind's curiosity, and attempts to find answers to spiritual questions.
God visited the poor old earth in Jesus. Therefore Christianity is not man-made but God-made.
What does God have against North America? Jesus didn't visit there, didn't God care about the humans he created that lived there at the time of Christ?
The American people has been corrupted by an outrageous, greedy gang of capitalists, and that is still the case today.
That may be the reason why you don't have the slightest comprehension of spiritual things – you are simply a dumb subculture.
you are simply a dumb subculture.
---–
Couldn't agree more with you there, we have Honey Boo Boo. But, I'm talking about Native Americans, not present-day Americans. They are/were human beings created by God. Why didn't he send a messenger to them, so they could have the message of christianity?
There are constant messengers of the Creator: The sun, the moon and the stars, the animals and the plants, good weather, etc. They testify the Creator.
When I was 21 I prayed to God whom I did not know that he may show me the purpose of life. Some months later I "discovered" a very beautiful island, and thanked God for his Creation (it was compelling). Some additional months later I met some Christians in Nuremberg who told me the gospel of Jesus.
I am convinced that it was always possible to receive the "good message", if somebody showed some honest interest in divine things. Yet Noah was called a preacher of righteousness. Yet Abel was called a believer by Jesus. There were always people who could be used by God as a tool to spread the good news. That is valid also for the Indians.
Rainer Helmut Braendlein
It's a riot to hear you speaking of someone who doesn't "have the slightest comprehension of spiritual things" and yet you are TOTALLY CLUELESS what the Bible says "is what the law and the prophets is all about". Keep pretending it's mindless bigotry and prejudice instead.
Ich schäme mich zu glauben, dass Sie sind Deutsche
Was soll's!
Loki, I don't know what you said but I do like Løki clothing!
@Rainer – Dein haar muss riechen schrecklich ... mit dem kopf in den arsch die ganze zeit ...
God is claimed to have visited the poor old earth in Jesus by humans. Humans have a long history of delusional thinking and lying for the sake of self-interest. Therefore Christianity, and other religions, are most certainly man-made .
jesus got whacked and a myth grew around his rotting corpse, rainy
Sam Stoned
does your Christian family know you are here on this blog breathing vile evil against their brothers and sisters? for example do they know that you uttered the following blasphemy against God and against His children on earth "jesus got whacked and a myth grew around his rotting corpse, rainy"? i wonder what they would say if they knew you were here attacking their brothers and sitsters in Christ; and do you treat your Christian family the same way?
LOCO LOKI
who invited the Hitler youth to this party, i thought you guys were all dead; and why is your head up Rainer's rectum smelling his hair?
LET's Religiosity Law #2 – When someone starts a conversation by identifying themselves as a 'Christian', they are about to be an asshole.
Wander on, Scotty, wander away. Even the other Christians on this blog think you are retarded. Did you use to post under a different handle? You come across as crazy as live4him.
"i wonder what they would say if they knew you were here attacking their brothers and sitsters in Christ"
That is not an attack on Christians....that is an attack on CHristian BELIEF. But you want to make it personal so you can claim persecution. Ridicule is absolutely an appropriate response to the ridiculous. And Sacred Cows make the best hamburger.
LOKI
also wanted to mention that i'll take a German saint over an unregenerate Nazi any day. btw .. you should take a course in English AND German, your German vocabulary is very poor.
All of my family knows exactly what I think of religion. Most of them are atheists and those that aren't, f'em if that can't deal with having their delusions challenged.
awanderingscot,
Hitler was supported by many Christians.
Remind me... who was the dipshit "Christian" that used to come on here all the time and call all of us Nazis? Oh, and threatened to look up our I.P.s and sue us?
And Hitler never renounced christianity and the RCC never excommunicated him, but then they do have a history of protecting criminals.
Mein Deutsch ist gut genug Schwanz Licker
Sam Stoned
“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.” John 3:18-21, NKJV
Sam, Jesus Christ loves you. You only need to repent and He will forgive you. Don't be hateful now and want to kill His messengers. Kneel before Him and confess and He may show you His mercy and grace. He is being patient with you right now because He does not desire to destroy you. Please reconcile yourself to Him. Your Christian family will be filled with joy as well.
come on, scottie.....all it takes is one click from your sidearm and you too could be on your knees, having your head bobbing up and down in the savior's lap
blasphemy is a victimless crime, troll
now, go home and get your fvcking shinebox boy
"Kneel before Him and confess and He may show you His mercy and grace."
Confess what? I live a happy fulfilling life with my wife and daughter and love those around me and try to do no harm to anyone. I work hard and pay my taxes. I don't own a gun because I wouldn't want to double the chances me or my family will be killed by gun violence. I'm just not sure what you want me to confess, please inform me.
Scot, Løki wasn't the official god of the Nazi party. That one was much closer to you than you would probably care to admit.
"Gott mitt uns" was on their belt buckles, after all.
Løki: hharri/faith, et al was the name of that person so fond of the phrase "donkey-puncher"; I wonder how that lawsuit is coming?
That may be the reason why you don’t have the slightest comprehension of spiritual things – you are simply a dumb subculture.
Once again, you are not qualified to speak about American life. You do not reside in this country. You reside in Germany.
It is disingenuous to berate a country, and a culture that is very wide and diverse, when one knows absolutely nothing about it.
So transubstantiation is not ridiculous?
The Lord's Supper is a SACRAMENTAL act. This has nothing to do with any magic, but is supernatural nevertheless.
At the Lord's Supper we receive the releasing power of Jesus death and resurrection in a supernatural way again. We could never grasp by our natural human abilities or reason what God gives us, if we eat the bread, and drink the wine during the Lord's Supper.
"My body given for you, my blood shed for you."
Yes. The Bible has several references to CANNIBALISM.
Your statements are not more valuable than the statements of an ill man within a nuthouse.
I don't claim that you would be a maniac.
Certainly some resident patients of nuthouses regard their nuthouse as the usual world, and the normal world as the nuthouse. You make a similar error.
So your cult's supernatural sh!t is good magic but other cults' supernatural sh!t is bad magic. I think I got it. . .
You should not call holy things sh!t! Once God will judge you for every useless word which you have uttered against God and his Church.
Imagine I just typed in words that say *everything* connected with your insane beliefs is sh!t. That's how afraid I am of your threats and your gods.
brother, you know the gnashing of teeth here on this blog.
it's because the end is near and it's only going to get louder.
try not to buy into the lies and evil deceit; and don't blame them,
their evil father also knows his time is near and is directing them
to say and do evil. he wants to mute the gospel and discourage you
so you won't get thru to our Lord's other sheep. I know this myself
in an experiential way. they will say things to try and bait you into
saying things you may not want to say and then will accuse you just
as their father does before our God.
they will quote scripture out of context, lie about our God, blaspheme Him, and use
our zeal for the Lord against us when we reply. But they do the evil
at the bidding of their father, the evil one. so be strong brother
but pray for His grace to overcome this evil.
Hot Air
Jesus Christ loves you too, even now in your vile unregenerate condition. he will forgive you but you must kneel in repentance before Him begging Him for His mercy. he has power over your body and your soul but is patient with you giving you the opportunity to repent. Please don't try to kill His ambassadors.
Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. – 2 Corinthians 5:20, NKJV
Do not tempt Odin's wrath by mocking him with your impotent god. The Aesir are the only gods worthy of your fear...
" Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ..."
Then why are you all so BAD at it ? Based on your behavior here, why in the world would anyone want what you claim to have ? Why would anyone want to be like you ??
A new jesus freak (or just a new handle) declaring the end is nigh and clean up your act or rot in hell. Wander on, Scotty, wander away. You sound like the Scottish Bishop raging on about gays while hiding in the closet.
Define "near." Many of you delusionals have been waiting for 2,000+ years. Marilyn Agee says the rapture will happen *this* year – maybe!
Provide actual evidence for your alleged but never proven god and I might listen to your delusional rantings. Until then, you know what you can do. . .
we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us
------
If God was so concerned that everyone follow Christ, why does he continue to create so many human beings that will never learn the first thing about Christ? How many humans will be born today, and go their entire lives never even hearing the name Jesus? God's not powerful enough to distribute this message? Or......is the message really just a creation of man, and God doesn't desire to spread it? It's the latter.
"So, a rabbi, a sheikh and a pope travel to the Holy Land…" A 100 years of ass rape and death immediately followed...
When local citizens of the area were asked about the situation – none of them had noticed any difference.
“But it also sends a pragmatic message to Muslims, Christians and Jews that it’s possible to work together – not as a system of checks and balances but as friends.”
It's not usually the members of these cults that have an issue with each other (except the extremists). It's their leaders.